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FAQs on Establishing Cycling Products in Freshwater Systems

Marineland's BioSpira, Yay (out of biz)

Hagen's Cycle, Nay

Question about filters, FW, seeding/bacteria -08/27/08
Hello crew,
How are you going today?
<Just fine, thanks for asking.>
My question is: I am in the process of upgrading to a 40 gallon tank from a 5 gallon (big change, so excited) and was wondering can the cycling process be sped up by putting the 5 gallon's filter on the bigger tank, thereby transferring the good bacteria?
<Well, the bacterial won't actively "swim" from one filter to the other so while adding the old filter to the tank will help, it won't help by much. So for a few weeks you will need to feed the fish carefully and not add any more fish until such time as the new filter has become matured. The best approach is to take some media from the old filter and put it in the new filter. This will "seed" the new filter, and get it off to a much faster start. You can take 50% of the media from the old filter without substantially lowering its filtration efficacy.>
Then removing it once the bacteria has had a chance to grow in the new tank. The 40 gallon would obviously have its own bigger filter as well. How long do you think it would take? I plan to put guppies in there.
<I'd recommend leaving the two filters together for at least 4 weeks if you plan to do things this way. If you remove 50% of the media from the old filter, you can leave the old filter on the 5 gallon tank. That tank could now be used to rear fry. The "seeded" new filter will be instantly mature enough to handle half a dozen Guppies, and if you feed them carefully and use a nitrite test kit to keep an eye on things, this new filter should be fully matured within a month.>
Thank you very much for your time, I love your site.
Sam
<Cheers, Neale.>

Freshwater parameters during cycling 8/12/08
Hello and sorry to bother with questions again.
<Hello!>
I am cycling my 40 gallon Freshwater aquarium. I got it on August 1st. I used Bio Spira and put 2 fish in right afterwards. I didn't have a test kit until August 7th. The kit that I got was a Red Sea liquid kit that tests ammonia, nitrites and ph.
<OK; all sounds good to go.>
The kit I was using and still am for Nitrate is liquid API. So between August 1st to August 6th I don't know if the Bio Spira worked my very first reading were ammonia .25,nitrite .2 and nitrate 5.
<Pretty normal for an cycling tank. Keep the NH3 and NO2- that low and you should be fine.>
All stayed this way no change. I tested tap water in a bucket with Prime additive still showing .25.
<Ah, now: can be one of two things. You could have ammonia in the water. This can happen in certain places, especially agricultural areas where NH3 runs off the land into the water supply. More probably though is that you have chloramine in the water. It's used as a disinfectant. When you use standard dechlorinator in, the chloramine is split into chlorine and ammonia. The chlorine is neutralised, but the ammonia is left behind. If you have ammonia in the water, wherever it comes from, you need to add ammonia remover to the water before adding it to the tank. Products such as "Ammo Lock" do this. Some dechlorinators will remove chloramine, and if you use them and the source is chloramine you should be fine. The test kit can give an erroneous reading though; if in doubt, look on your water supplier's web site and find out if they use chloramine.>
I then tested water straight from tap that was .25 so I got suspicious. I took all three types of samples to LFS tank water, treated bucket water and plain tap water. He tested all three with his API test kit and 0 ammonia in all three (makes me wonder if the Bio Spira did do its job).
<Bio Spira is no longer manufactured, and some of the "old stock" may well be past its best by date. I've never used the stuff personally, but have to admit to hearing mixed reports. Some people swear by the stuff, others swear at it.>
That in itself makes things difficult for a beginner such as myself.
<Yes and no. If it's chloramine, add dechlorinator that treats chloramine, and ignore the ammonia reading in the water. In fact after the first week or so you can forget about the ammonia part of the cycling process and concentrate on the nitrite level. Why? Because within 1-2 weeks the ammonia peak will have passed, and you'll now be waiting for the nitrite peak, which usually comes about 3-4 weeks after setting up the tank. Don't be afraid to set the tank temperature slightly higher than normal, i.e., instead of the usual 25 C/77 F, go anything up to 30 C/86 F (assuming your fish will tolerate this). Adding extra aeration will help, too. Oxygen and temperature are both limiting factors, and the more you add, the faster the bacteria will grow.>
Anyway I bought a API liquid test kit have been doing tests everyday (oh and I do have some
gravel and plants and rocks and stuff from my established tank.) My reading since the 9th have been a consistent ammonia 0, nitrite 1.0 and nitrate 10 oh and ph is been 7.8 to 8.0 through out.
<See, absolutely what I'd expect. Your ammonia-eating bacteria have done their thing and they're happy. You're now waiting for the nitrite-eating bacteria to come online.>
Do I just need patients for that nitrite and nitrates to fluctuate any and considering I had put those poor 2 fish in (Kribensis and Opaline Gourami) which looks like they are ok to my novice eyes should I stay away from water changes till cycle completes or do I need to do a water change and how much?
<These fish are in there? Gouramis are usually okay through the cycling process, but Cichlids are not happy about it (except maybe really tough species like Mozambique Mouthbrooders). In any case, they're through the worst of it now. In any case: do water changes. Water changes are good. Water changes are free. Water changes will save the lives of your fish! The more, the better. But certainly 25% every couple of days wouldn't be out of line.>
I also have 3 julii Cory's waiting in the wings in my established tank.
<Hold off for now... these are delicate fish and you're likely to lose some or all of them if you add them to an immature tank. Give at least 6-8 weeks before adding them. Once the nitrite is zero and stays zero, you can start adding new fish but don't go bananas.>
I speculate that I should wait till all is well in new tank before I add them?
<Correct. You're learning real fast!>
I know Neale is for cloning the tank (which I am doing as stated above) and not using Bio Spira since he answered my last email.
<Indeed. I'm old school about cycling tanks, and "cloning" is just so darned easy once you know about it.>
But since I had used it originally and found that my test kit wasn't screwed up and I have fish in there. Otherwise I probably wouldn't even been writing in today.
<You're doing fine. Just watch your fish for sings of stress (e.g. laboured breathing, damage to the fins) and keep doing the water changes and water tests for the next couple weeks at least. After that, you'll be done. Keep reading, learning, being patient and you'll have a lovely tank that's easy on the eye and fun to look after. The problems occur when people go tearing into things without thinking. Fishkeeping *is* easy, if you go by the numbers.>
Thanks Joe
<Cheers, Neale.>

A few questions in setting up new tank. FW BioSpira, 8/5/08
Hello,
I have a few questions I am hoping you can help me out with, and if you see anything along the way that you think needs my attention to change I would appreciate any suggestions.
<OK.>
One of my questions I have is regarding Bio Spira. I was reading a similar question on your site from back in '05 that a link was given to read _www.marinelandlabs.com_ (http://www.marinelandlabs.com) or something like that. When I clicked on link it never connected, so I figured I would write in.
I have a new 40 gallon FW tank I set up on Friday the 1st of this month. I used some about 3 gallons from an established tank and the rest from the tap after adding stuff for chlorine and chloramines. I then put in the Bio Spira packet.
<Water from mature aquaria contains virtually no filter bacteria. So adding "old" water is a waste of time. To instantly mature a new aquarium you can take up to 50% of the filter media from a mature aquarium and then put it into a the filter in the new tank. Then just add fish! This method works completely reliably assuming the water chemistry between the two tanks is the same, and the mature aquarium won't be harmed (provided you don't go nuts and add a bunch more new fish or drastically overfeed during the next few days). In fact many filter manufacturers recommend half the filter media (sponge, filter floss, ceramic noodles) be replaced every year or two. You need to add new fish to the new tank so the filter has some ammonia to 'eat'. This process is called "cloning a filter" and is the best way to mature new tanks.>
I don't know if their supplier refrigerates it, I can speculate the LFS refrigerates it because package was cold. When I got home I put it in the refrigerator till I set up the tank. Then as per what my LFS told me I put my Kribensis in the tank right after adding Bio Spira. Kribensis seems to be doing fine. I tested the water today Monday the 4th (so its been four days since I set the tank up and put in the Bio Spira). The water tested at 0.1 for ammonia .25 for nitrites,5.0 for nitrates and 7.8. for ph. Are these pretty normal for using Bio Spira four days prior?
<Not normal, no. The idea with Bio Spira is you get instant maturation of the filter. This means zero ammonia, zero nitrite. But Bio Spira appears to be a temperamental product. I have never used it (I prefer cloning) but my impression from other fishkeepers is that while it _can_ work, it doesn't _always_ work.>
Or how long till I should suspect if I got a bad packet. If so, would you recommend I try another packet from a different place or no?
<Clone the filter as outlined above and be done with it.>
I will keep an eye on test readings. What should I EXPECT to see if Bio Spira is not working?
<Zero ammonia/nitrite if it does work; anything else if it isn't working.>
Another Question I have is in regards to Emperor 400 filter. I read on here that using the carbon filters that are supplied with the Emperor 400 in the persons opinion was not good and to get something like Aqua Clear media foam sponges or bio balls (the sponges I have seen). I was hoping for a little expansion info on this set up. So I shouldn't be using carbon filtration at all?
<I consider carbon a waste of time/space/money in most freshwater tanks. By all means use it if you want, but understand that to do its job it needs replacing every 4 weeks. If you don't do that, it's doing nothing. Moreover, if you do big water changes, 25-50% weekly, the carbon is redundant, because you're removing the dissolved organic chemicals the carbon would otherwise adsorb. Hence my recommendation that you remove carbon from the filter and replace with whatever additional media you like... sponges, filter floss, ceramic noodles.>
and. How many slots of the 4 should the sponges be used in ? Just two, or all four?
<All four would be fine for plain vanilla biological filtration.>
Last Question. I have a pair of Opaline gourami's that I bought to put into the 40 gallon tank. Right now I have them in a 5 gallon quarantine tank. The male seems to be aggressively chasing the female constantly. Is this most likely because of the type of fish, or the small tank?
<Absolutely normal for Trichogaster trichopterus, which is why I don't recommend this species as a community tank resident. Males are aggressive, period.>
I am wondering if they should be better when I move them to the 40 gallon tank or if I should return
the male and try for a less aggressive male (if there such a thing?
<Just keep females (shorter dorsal fins, so easy to tell). Alternatively keep a less aggressive species like Colisa fasciata or Trichogaster leeri.>
Thank You very much
<Cheers, Neale.>

Bio-Spira... not following directions... 2/26/08
I wrote to you on 2/21/08 concerning Amon. & No2 & No3 levels. In brief:
55gal., aqua-clear filtration system, artificial plants & decos
Started tank without fish 12/31/07 Amon ? O.5 No2 &3 - O. Added 6 Danios
1/9/08- Amon. O.5 No2 & 3 ?O. PH-7.
<Ammonia is toxic>
1/24/08 Added 3 swordtails & 1 Gourami
2/10/08 Added 6 Australian rainbows
Up to this time all levels stayed the same ? Amon. O.5 No2 & 3 ? O. All of this was recommended by LFS and knew of my concerns
<... still deadly toxic>
about the ammonia levels and no reading for No2 &3. (Told me that the tank probably already cycled) (Can you tell I'm new to this hobby)?
<Yep>
On 2/17/08 Amon. now 1.0 and still no readings for No2 & 3 PH-7.2 . Had been doing 15 ? 25% water changes weekly with no changes.
<No use changing water... forestalling the establishment of cycling>
Was told by Bob to use ?Bio-Spira?, no water changes, feed tiny amts. (feed every other day) and no new fish until cycled.
<Good advice!>
I bought the ?Bio-Spira? and was told by LFS to use only ½ of the pkg.
<... a full dose?>
I did this on Sat. 1/23 and tested water today and all levels are still the same as on 2/17/08.
Should I use the rest of the ?Bio-Spira? --- or wait it out and test daily?
<Use the full dose... as labeled>
All fish are fine, water crystal clear and no odors.
<And check your test kit... against another, and/or make a standard (with household ammonia, and water known to have no ammonia...)
Thank you for any help
<Read: http://wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwestcycling.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>

Species of Nitrifiers in SW and Fresh 11/25/2007
Dear Crew,
Just wondering whether the good bacteria in freshwater systems is the same bacteria in saltwater systems.
<That's a far more complicated question that you might think. In one sense, yes, they're the same bacteria. However, they have different relative roles/importance in different environments. There's really no "light reading" on this, but you can try this if you're feeling ambitious: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=168074>
Cheers,
Andrew
<Best,
Sara M.>

55 Gallon freshwater water quality problems 11/8/07
Hello Crew,
I am somewhat new to the freshwater hobby and am having problems with the water quality in my freshly established 55 gal tank. I set it up and began Cycling on October 14th, 2007. I used a product called Stability from Sea-Chem.
<Ah, one of these "instant bacteria" products. They can work well, but approach with caution. To paraphrase Euclid, "There is no Royal Road to a mature aquarium". All these products do is help things along. You still need to do all the usual water quality tests and stock the aquarium carefully checking for problems.>
I provided the proper doses for 7 days as the directions said and completed my cycling on October 21. Nitrites, Nitrates, and Ammonia all came back 0ppm with a Ph of 7.0-7.5.
<Very good.>
2 Days after cycling I added a 5" Common Pleco. 2 days after that I installed a new Aqua Clear 70 filter to go along with the Aqua-Tech 30-60 That I cycled the tank with.
<OK.>
That same day I also added a 2" long Horse Face Loach. 2 days after that on Saturday I transferred my 4" long Bala shark from my 29 Gal tank into the 55 Gal. Everyone was doing fine. I continued monitoring my chemical levels every other day for a week. after that week I decided to add two 3" Spotted Pictus Cats. Later that night I tested my water to find out that the Nitrites, Nitrates, and Ammonia have spiked.
<Yes, this happens sometimes. An immature aquarium is an unstable aquarium, regardless of whether you do a with-fish or a fish-less cycle.>
I did a 10 gal water change with a gravel vac (probably not a good idea)
<No, water changes are good. The more the better. In this case, 50% per day would be the minimum. To stop fish dying you need to be re-setting the ammonia down to zero at every opportunity.>
and added another dose of the stability per advice from my LFS who is very knowledgeable.
<OK.>
The next day the levels came down just a tiny bit so I added some more Stability and waited to see what the next day would bring. Well Tuesday came along and my levels were still high so I did a 15 gal water change, added some more Stability trying to get the bacteria up and added Ammo chips to help reduce the Ammonia.
<Never mind the Stability. The bacteria are *already* in the filter, so adding more of them doesn't really make any difference. The bacteria just haven't settled down. That takes time. Water changes, my friend, are what you need here.>
My last test was yesterday, Wednesday the 5th of November and my levels were as follows: Nitrites 0.25ppm, Nitrates around 10ppm, and Ammonia a whopping 1.0ppm.
<Ugh. The nitrates are fine, but the ammonia especially is a killer. Water change! Water change!>
My fish all appear healthy and are all very active. I feed them every other day (except for the Pleco, I give him an algae wafer and cucumber every night).
<Cut back the food. Don't give them anything on alternate days. The less protein in the system, the less ammonia.>
I am at a loss of what to do next.
<This is easy: water changes!>
I'm thinking of just letting it go and seeing if it balances on its own.
<Yes, it will. Two, three weeks, tops. The fact you have nitrite and nitrate implies that the bacteria are doing their thing. They're just messing about a bit, figuring out the right population size of this mini-ecosystem. Let them settle down. In the meantime... water changes!>
Any help you could offer would be wonderful. Thank you, Derrick
<Good luck, Neale>

Re: 55 Gallon freshwater water quality problems 11/8/07
Thank you very much. I will do a water change as soon as I get home today. So as for the feeding. If am feeding them every other night right now (feeding one night then skipping the next) how often should I be feeding them if you say to cut back?
<As infrequently as possible. No more than 3-4 times per week. Fish can go weeks without food, but ammonia kills in days. Cheers, Neale>

FW Bio-Spira Cycling Questions 11/1/07
Hello.
<Hi there>
I apologize if this question is going to be lengthy, but I need to make sure I'm doing the right thing so my fish suffer as little as possible.
<Take your time>
My name is John and I just recently purchased and set up a 75 gallon freshwater tank after having a 20 gallon for a few years. I have basic Comet goldfish (2) and one Pleco. The goldfish are about 6-8" big, and the Pleco is around 4-5" and hasn't grown much in the past year. Not sure what kind he is, but I've heard that they get pretty big. Not sure if mine will, though, since I can't find any pictures that even look like him on the internet. But I digress from my problem.
Here's the beginning of the story.
In late September I was having issues with water quality in my tank.
Previously I had rinsed the power filter, and changed the media (I had a Marineland Penguin 350). I figured that the bacteria would be ok on the Biowheels, but I rinsed them since they were dirty, just like I had done with the tank many times before. In fact, after cleaning the filter, I tested for a week or so and everything was ok, so I figured the wheels were still working just fine.
<Rinsed them in tap water I take it>
Then my fish started to lose their scales. Just coming off. I checked frantically all over the internet for diseases and did water changes, but nothing was "wrong". All readings were ok, like ammonia and nitrites.
Nitrates had always been high in the tank. I had a hard time keeping them under 80-160 ppm just because the tank was so small.
<Yes... and trouble>
Overfeeding was not happening since my fish would eat within 30 seconds, and as soon as the fish started to not eat the food I'd cease feeding. I usually fed them about once or twice a day.
Because of the scale loss, I decided to completely clean the tank.
<Yikes>
I filled it with untreated, HOT tap water, thinking it would kill anything in the tank, including any diseases that may be in there. I did NOT do anything to the filter or Biowheels. I figured that the majority of the biological filter would be contained in the wheels (since that's what they were for) and I would retain enough bacteria to be alright.
<Mmm, with the complete water change, change in chemistry, loss of nutrition, am quite sure you killed off most all your biological filtration>
In fact, I figured that
there wasn't even any bacteria anywhere else in the tank since they would "prefer" the wheels.
I was wrong.
<Yes>
All of a sudden my ammonia and nitrites went through the roof. So after one week of my fish flashing, and then one night suddenly twitching, I immediately drained the whole tank. Ever since then it has been in constant biological bloom and extreme readings on the ammonia/nitrite readings. I pretty much figured that the week of cleaning my filter killed my wheels, and then the hot water killed the bacteria in the rocks.
<Yes>
In early October, I decided to finally upgrade the tank (the fish needed it - even if they are only feeder comets, I have a hard time watching anything living suffer).
I now have a Rena XP4 with three bags of Bio-Stars, two Bio-Chem Zorbs, and the standard mechanical filtration. I have also added two Seachem Purigen packs to the final basket before the MicroFiltration in order to remove nitrates, since I had so much in my previous tank.
After two weeks of having this tank (and using Cycle, which I thought would work like Bio-Spira
<Uh, no>
- the one time I don't research I get burned, go figure), I'm starting to see extreme nitrite readings (2-5 ppm), and when I cleaned out the filter this weekend (I do NOT clean the stars. learned my lesson from the previous tank) I got a small .5 - 1.00 ammonia spike.
<Not small. Deadly toxic at this concentration and elevated pH>
I have been doing water changes once a week rather large, between 25 and 50%, and it was helping with the ammonia, but not the nitrites. Because of this, I dosed with 5 times the dosage of Prime in order to "detoxify" the nitrites like it says on the bottle. I did this sometime last week, around Wednesday.
<...>
I then decided last weekend to get some Bio-Spira to help cycle the tank,
<Yay!>
after reading the FAQ's here and everywhere else. It was shipped Monday, and I put it in the tank Tuesday night after I received it. The pack was cold, and remained cold in my fridge until after work.
<Good>
I added the pack straight to my filter (actually took out some of the filter packs and dumped the Bio-Spira right on the stars). It is now Wednesday night and I'm not seeing any effect of the bacteria. Did I kill them with the nitrites being too high?
<No>
Is that possible? I thought that the bacteria "ate" that stuff, so that it would flourish with higher levels?
<Just takes a bit of time...>
I've read all the FAQ's online and I've tried to search for conditions that will kill Bio-Spira, but I cannot find anything for the life of me. All I see is that if it is not refrigerated, it will kill the product.
<This is about it>
Is my tank going to cycle, or have I wasted my money on the bacteria by having the nitrites too high?
<Will cycle... patience>
Or, worse yet, did I get a bad batch of Bio-Spira, and how do I prove it to the company I purchased it from so I can get another batch?
<No need>
I'm afraid to do a water change this weekend because I have found in my searches that it could take 5 days for Bio-Spira to cycle a tank, and that water changes could "remove" the bacteria that I spent so much money on and that are so helpful to the tank. I thought it only took a day, thus the purchase and expense of getting it overnight shipped.

HELP! I don't want to fry (or kill) my fish! They may be originally 12 cent feeder fish, but I've strangely become attached to them. They do seem perfectly normal and even happy to be in a bigger tank, but I know I can (and should) do better for them.
Thanks a ton,
John Lindsay
<Ten deep breaths John... All will be fine in time... Wait. Bob Fenner>

Re: Bio-Spira Cycling Questions 11/1/07
Bob,
<John>
Thank you for the help.
<Welcome>
I have a few more follow up questions when you get a chance.
<Okay>
You were correct about me rinsing my filter in tap water. I had no idea it would cause a problem. I know now thanks to your site.
Also, I'm curious what could cause a fish to start losing scales. Could it be the water quality causing this?
<Yes my friend. Exactly>
I do not notice any parasites or illness in them, so I am thinking that water quality in the previous tank when it crashed caused most of this. I am, however, starting to suspect maybe some fin rot - very little, but not sure entirely what it looks like, so I will do more research. Is this caused by ammonia and nitrite burning?
<There are many "dis-eases"... my working definition is: any deviation from a normal or healthy state... Can be classed by causative mechanism/s... e.g. genetic, nutritional, ... in this case: environmental. Disease is not limited to pathogens: infectious, parasitic...>
When you say that an ammonia spike of .5-1.00 is deadly (my PH is around 7.6-8.2 depending on when I take the readings) at high PH, I'm curious as to why it does not seem to be affecting my fish.
<Classical habituation... you will understand if you take the time to peruse WWM>
They seem to be as happy as ever, with good looking gills, and always respond to me walking over to the tank wanting food. On your advice, I will cease to feed them, but I'm not sure for how long. Until the readings go down?
<Yes>
Goldfish I know can go up to three days without food, but I don't know about my Pleco. Doesn't he need food every night?
<Better no food than being toxified by its effects>
I assume that decay, regardless where it's from, will cause additional ammonia and nitrites. So, decaying algae wafers will do the same thing, right?
<Yes>
Another question I have is nitrates. There are a lot of differing opinions (even on your site) as to the level that they should be at for a FW tank.
How high is too high,
<Mmm... the token standard this time... 20 ppm>
and what can too high of nitrates cause in terms of negative impacts to water quality and life,
<Many... let's say one bit one this time... retards the RBCs (yes fishes have them too... with the same hemoglobin molecule...) capacity to take up oxygen... very important)...>
other than algae blooms? I wouldn't actually mind algae blooms, as I think that would help to keep nitrates in control, plus give my Pleco a more natural source of food.
<Mmm, not all forms of algae are palatable... some are toxic in their own right>
Just an update - I just tested my readings and it looks like the ammonia has dropped between 0 and .25 ppm and still way too high on the nitrites with a reading between 2 and 5 ppm. I have the API FW test kit so at higher readings it's a bit more difficult to discern the colors.
<See my prev. stmt.s re...>
Thank you so much for the help. I really appreciate everything and am awed at the response time that I received! I will surely donate to the site as I had planned on it anyway, but if there is anything else I can do to thank you please let me know.
John
<Thank you for your participation; showing your caring in doing your best for your aquatic charges. Life to you my friend. Bob Fenner>

Re: Bio-Spira Cycling Questions... using WWM 11/1/07
Bob,
<John>
I did a search on WWM for "Classical habituation" and got my answer. I was using different search terms that weren't returning anything.
<Shades of B.F. Skinner! Heeeee>
I also think that the fin rot that I suspected may actually be the result of almost a month in continuously changing and poor water quality.
<Almost assuredly so>
I think it is a sign of ammonia poisoning, and not fin rot, starting to rear its head, so I'm glad I decided to finally do something proactive about it instead of waiting for the cycle to finish.
<Good idea...>
Hopefully my tank cycles soon, and then it will be much easier to take care of my fish. That was the whole plan of a 75 gallon, anyway, compared to the 20 gallon. :)
I will continue waiting on the water changes and feeding as you suggested, and will also attempt to maintain 20 ppm of nitrates in my aquarium. I think my tap water is at 5-10 ppm out of the tap, so I might have to find some way to fix this. RO is not really an option since I am in an apartment and I have no room to store it.
<Please see WWM re ameliorative processes for limiting NO3...>
Do you have any ideas on this? I read that Prime will remove some, but I don't think it's testable due to how Prime works.
<... Please... learn to/use the search tool, indices...>
I also have Purigen in my canister to try to remove this, but I'm not sure of its ability or effectiveness. Any thoughts? I'll try searching some more on nitrates on WWM, but all I see is water changes fixing this. Is there anything else that can do this? I've seen that skimmers and sumps help in this regard, but those I've read are for saltwater systems.
Again, thank you very much for your help. It's hard to find these days when everyone is just concerned about making a buck and moving to the next victim... I mean customer. :)
John
<Perhaps here: http://wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwnitrates.htm
and the linked files above. BobF>

Re: Bio-Spira Cycling Questions 11/1/07
Bob,
<John>
I know how irritating it must be for someone to ask questions that have already been answered, and I do apologize, but I promise you, I *have* used the search tool and read through the FAQ's on this stuff for at least a month before even thinking about e-mailing... that's how I learned that I killed my tank bacteria and that Cycle was worthless compared to Bio-Spira.

I am not afraid of reading the material, I just don't think I know where to look, or *how* to look for it. My search terms are apparently not working, since you obviously think that the answers to my questions are on the site.
<Well... I do "apologize" by way of compassion (from the Latin meaning "to bear pain with") for the lack of intuitive capacity of the site... EricR has just sent a new guide to using the site that I'm posting today... And I am greatly appreciative of your input here... re the search- use-ability of the content here, its arrangement...>
I'm relatively new to most of this and I think I'm getting wires crossed with the boatload of information I've read the past week to a month. I have literally sat down and read one FAQ or more per night as well as reading the "guides" on this stuff, and perhaps I'm missing the information that is relevant to me.
<Again, I sense your frustration, and am indeed eager to assist you>
Perhaps what may be helpful is listing common search terms and then their correct scientific or "inside" terms so that people who are new like me know how to search. Just a suggestion since I hate asking questions that are already answered, wasting your time and irritating you.
<An excellent idea... and no irritation from earnest folk who have tried to find what there is...>
For example, ameliorative processes would not be something I would ever know to search for, especially related to nitrates.
<Sorry re my apparent obtuse- and contriteness... am given to mind wandering too often...>
Also, searching on Prime and nitrates/nitrites or even reading the FAQ's/guides on dechlorinating water (what Prime does) and cycling (where Prime keeps down the toxicity) doesn't seem to give me any information which you have obviously pointed me towards.
<Ahh, nothing, or not enough of anything of apparent, ready, applicable use...>
At least in my mind. All I need usually is a pointer and I will gladly do the rest, especially if it is out there already! The last thing I want to do is waste your time, so again I apologize. :)
Thanks,
John
<Again, it is not a failing on your part, nor particularly of ours... That our language, the development/growth of the Net, our small part, has not gone sufficiently to aid quickly, completely. Let us begin anew John, with particular questions. Bob Fenner>

Re: Bio-Spira Cycling Questions 11/07/07
Bob,
<John>
Sorry this took so long to send back; my e-mail server was down for the weekend.
<No worries>
I wanted to mainly ask how Prime works. I know it says it detoxifies ammonia and nitrites, as well as removes nitrates, but how exactly does it to this?
<You mean chemically? Do look up the terms sodium thiosulfate (hyposulfite) and Polyvinyl pyrolidone (PVP)... I am not at liberty to state the proprietary formulations of peoples'/companies' products...>
More of a broad overview than a detailed chemistry equation is ok with me! I just don't understand how it can leave it in the water but at the same time detoxify it.
<Okay>
As you recall, my nitrites were in the 5ppm range for over a week, and then last Friday were amazingly down to 0.5ppm. Not sure if the Prime was hindering, or helping with this.
<Likely helping... but could be "just time going by", microbial activity mostly>
As an update, my tank was fully cycled on Saturday. It has held at 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, and the nitrates are now high at around 80 ppm.
<Yikes!>
I will be doing a water change this weekend (I want to make sure the cycle is "stable" and complete before changing the environment).
<Good; well-stated>
I wanted to also ask you what your view is on bio-media for canister filters.

In specific, I'm looking to replace the bio-chem stars from Rena with Seachem's Matrix. I was reading some testimonials about this product, and have noticed that it actually supports the growth of bacteria that will remove nitrates. Do these types of products work as claimed, or am I wasting more money?
<They can work... have seen sintered glass (e.g. the commercial product Siporax) used in HUGE applications for anaerobic denitrification>
I have read on WWM only that spending more on quality bio-media will not allow more fish and only support higher colonies in labs, but nothing on the effectiveness or ability to do as Matrix claims. Bio-chem stars do not claim to remove nitrates at all, so that was the eye-catcher for me.
<This is a good product of a worthy company. I only find a few of SeaChem's products more show than go>
I am keenly aware that water changes are necessary, and am happy to do them, but I am looking for something to assist me with the removal of nitrates.
<As you should>
To keep them in the range of 20 ppm like you suggested would require almost daily 50% water changes. In fact, my tap water is around 10ppm. With daily water changes at 50% for a 75 gallon, that amounts to a large volume of water every week, on top of amounts of money spent on Prime. I'm fearful of this much water usage, since currently my water bill is free, but if I go over some arbitrary amount (the landlord states "unusual" amounts of usage)
I will be billed for it.
<Heeee! Oh yes>
I would like to get this down to the average 25-33% weekly changes, or even bi-weekly 50% changes. Do you think this is possible using a relatively easy method, such as Matrix or de*nitrate?
<Yes... though there are other means. You have re the use of DSBs, live plants... on WWM?>
Again I fear using RO, because I literally have nowhere to store it in my apartment.
<Mmm, doesn't take much space... containers of not-too large size in the closet for instance. I am more concerned with the water/use for yourself... drinking and cooking>
Thank you so much,
John Lindsay
<Welcome in kind. Bob Fenner>

Grr....pet store people! ... salt use/FW... cycling prod.s... Using WWM 9/12/07
Good evening to you all! I hope this finds you well.
Thanks again for all of your help. I've searched your site for the last few days, reading everything that even remotely applied to my tank/fish in hopes that I can learn new things to watch for so I can head off any problems. I've even read things that didn't apply sometimes because it was just plain interesting.
Since our last email, I've added 1 more ADF. The original one spent a lot of time hiding and now comes out to play. I guess he/she was lonely. (I also feel like I should name them.)
<Go ahead>
I know I'm pushing the limits on what is "too much", but they all seem healthy/happy with no trouble maintaining proper levels. I have been doing a 25-30% water changes with gravel vaccuuming twice a week. I'm wondering if I'm doing too much?
<Mmm, no, not likely>
Also, PetSmart suggested that I add conditioning salt
<No...>
to my tank because their breeders us it so the fish are accustomed to it.
<...>
Well, everything I bought from them died. I've asked the nice people at SuperPet and they said that it wouldn't hurt, but they don't use salts. I also use Jungle "Start Right" when doing water changes to treat for chlorine/chloramine. It has Allantoin added to it to "promote slime coat". Isn't that a bit redundant?
<Can be>
Should I continue with the salt and find another treatment for the chlorine/chloramine?
<... Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/saltusefaqs.htm>
Or stop with the salt? Can I just stop using it? Or should I slowly taper the level off? AGH! I promise you (and my fish) that I will never visit PetSmart again!
One more thing...Though my water looks clear from a distance, when you get right up on the tank, you can see a hazy kind of something floating all around in the water. I have no idea what this is and can't find any mention of it anywhere on your site. I know this is kind of vague, but any ideas?
<Likely a matter of microbial population, lack of established biofiltration... best to not feed... overfeed...>
OK, so this is the last thing...lol. Another pet store recommended using Cycle (which I can only assume is comparable to what you all call Bio-Spira
<Ah, no... this Hagen product is inferior>
(I can't find it anywhere here). It says to use when setting up new aquarium to establish beneficial bacteria, during water changes, and when introducing new fish. Is this a product that you are familiar with and is it needed since I did cycle my tank in the beginning?
<Please learn to/use the search tool on WWM: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/WWMAdminSubWebIndex/question_page.htm>
Again, thank you so much for all your time and effort. I am so thankful that I stumbled upon your site (and found it interesting enough to spend the last few days here). You all are a blessing. By the way, I referred to the nice people at SuperPet to your site when I asked them a question that they couldn't answer (but at least they TOLD me they didn't know instead of guessing!).
Brandi
<Happy to share... Bob Fenner>

Bio-Spira Replacement 5/7/07
Hi guys, Thank you for providing such a fantastic web resource - it's a treasure trove of information! Here is my question:
I'm based in Cape Town, South Africa, and can't find Bio Spira
_anywhere_ !Could you recommend an alternative? There seem to be hundreds.
Thanks again, hope you're all having a smiley day :)- Anusha
< You can get Bio-Spira online from Drsfostersmith.com. I am not sure if it would survive the trip from the US. The best alternative would be to get some sand from an established tank at a local fish store. The needed bacteria live on the surface of the sand. Start stocking the tank slowly at first and watch the ammonia and nitrate levels. Aquarists were doing this for a long time before Bio-Spira. I have not heard any good feed back for any other aquarium starter culture.-Chuck>

Cycling Question--Cycle Product is Bunk! 5/4/07
Hello guys,
<Hi, Jeni/Pufferpunk here>
you might recall I contacted you about an Oranda that got it's eye ripped out with a syphon...He is still alive and seemngly doing well.
<Awww... I hope he doesn't get picked on by the others.>
I was hoping you guys could help me out again. I have a 45 gal tall tank with 4 gold fish, 2 Orandas, a telescope and a decent size black moor. I think it is cycled but can no longer tell. For a couple of weeks my nitrites were out of control and my nitrates were low, present but low.
<When there is 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites & nitrates below 20, you have a healthy, cycled tank.>
I went to a fish store that was deemed trustworthy by a friend that has been in the hobby for about 2 years. The OWNER recommended I use "Cycle" in my tank. He said it only has bacteria to work against ammonia and nitrite.
<He is completely mistaken. Cycle contains dead bacteria (more waste) & can hinder your cycle. The ONLY product that contains LIVE bacteria is Bio-Spira & can instantly cycle your tank. It MUST be kept refrigerated.>
I knew I was towards the end of my cycle and had been testing daily and doing 50-70% water changes daily or every other day.
<Good>
I added the "Cycle" to my tank and it seemingly did nothing. A week or so goes by and nothing is really changing, maybe a minor drop in Nitrites. I go to a different 'trusted' fish store and the girl there says "you are doing too many water changes, the cycle is in limbo".
<Since the nitrifying bacteria lives on surfaces, removing water as often as possible to prevent the fish from being poisoned by ammonia/nitrites is fine & necessary.>
She says my options at this point are to stop water changes and either A) over feed to produce waste OR B) use refrigerated 'live' bacteria.
<A) Will kill all your fish & should be done as a fishless cycle.
B) Is Bio-Spira.>
She also goes on to tell me that "Cycle" only masks the test kits (I use aqua pharmaceuticals
<Aquarium Pharmaceuticals>
liquid drop tests) and that "Cycle" does nothing to progress the real cycling of the tank.
<That, she is absolutely correct about.>
I chose to over feed, (I was feeding sparingly prior to her advice, a small amount every other day).
<Bad move.>
Well, after following her advice 2 weeks go by and sure enough slowly my Nitrites are going down BUT my low levels (10-15ppm) of nitrAtes are going down too. So 2 weeks later here I am, with the following test results: Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 0. I don't buy those results for the life of me.

ALSO my water started getting white cloudy, which I am told is a 'bacteria bloom' so if that's the case, what the heck is going on in my tank? I fear I have rendered my test kits useless.
<Did you add Bio-Spira?>
To further make matters worse, my black Oranda has now started gasping for air at the surface, I did a 10% change tonight and lowered the water level to let the filters (Whisper 4 and a Bio-Wheel) pour into the tank to agitate the surface more, plus I took my airstones out of the gravel to make the bubbles finer.
<Good moves. The bacterial bloom is reducing O2.>
I don't think I asked any direct question but I could really use some advice, We JUST bought a 75 gallon tank for the goldfish because we thought the tank was cycled but now with the weird tests we are weary of transferring them, so any help would be great.
<Start up the 75g ASAP. Get enough Bio-Spira to cycle that sized tank. Add it to the filter & add the fish immediately afterwards. Whala! Instantly cycled tank! Easy, huh? I suggest multiple filtration, as your fish grow. I'd say, the largest Aquaclear filter they make & a canister filter, like the Eheim. Until then, do 80-90% water changes daily on the present tank. Use Prime for dechlorinating & detoxifying ammonia/nitrite/nitrate. Most goldfish keepers do 90% water changes weekly, as these fish are extremely messy fish & produce a lot of waste.>
Thanks guys keep up the good work.
<Good luck! For future letters to us, please be sure your i's are capitalized, when used as a pronoun, as well as the letters in the beginning of sentences. I have corrected all that here, for posting in our FAQs. ~PP>

Bio-Spira + Amquel = Uncycled Tank 3/9/07
<Hi, Pufferpunk here>
I started a new tank using Bio-Spira (75 gallon tank). I got a little crazy with the Amquel, which resulted in a lower pH and now I'm wondering what else its resulted in.
<Amquel shouldn't lower your pH. If you read the directions on the Bio-Spira package though, it says not to use any ammonia-removing products with it. The bacteria in Bio-Spira needs ammonia to live.>
My ammonium
<ammonia?>
went up and went down. My nitrites started down, went up, then up again, then up again and now I have no idea where the reading should be but it's a real pretty shade of purple. The nitrates stayed low until recently, now it's on the rise but the nitrites are holding steady. My fish are eating, swimming, seem relaxed but I'm extremely worried and willing to do anything in my power to keep those beautiful dollar bills swimming. I'm mainly writing to find out if Amquel is skewing my test on the nitrites. Please let me know. About the only thing left to buy is snake oil and the only thing stopping me is finding the salesman.
<Now why would you want to go and do that? Using anything other than Bio-Spira to cycle your tank, will only hinder the cycle. Get another package of Bio-Spira and add to your filter, after doing an 80% water change to remove the nitrites & Amquel. You tank should be fine within 24-48 hours.
Next time, please be sure to correct your capitalization & punctuation, before sending out your email to us. I have to correct them before they are posted in our FAQs. Very time consuming. Another Crewmember might have returned this email unanswered, for correction. Thanks, PP>

Fishless Cycle Mistake 2/12/07
Good Day,
<And to you>
I'll make this short and sweet. I was attempting to fishless cycle my 29 gallon tank which contains Ecco-Complete Cichlid Sand for substrate and an Eheim 2215 filter. I purchased "clear ammonia" from Shaw's and added 8ml to my tank;
<Yikes... this is a BUNCH... too much ammonia presence actually kills all life... including nitrifying bacteria... I imagine (though barely) that too many pizzas would kill even me!>
however, I neglected to give the ammonia the "shake test" before I added it to my tank. (I know, big mistake) Of course I shook the bottle and it foamed indicating that the ammonia contains surfactants, and now I don't know what to do. Please help?
<Oh!...>
The tank is empty besides the 40 lbs of Ecco-Complete Cichlid Sand.. and of course 29 gallons of water. I have carbon in the filter that is only a week old. Could that help take care of the surfactants?
<Mmm, yes>
I realize that I may have to empty my tank and rinse everything, which, of course is very frustrating. If this is what you recommend, Is there a way that I can keep some of my bacteria alive through out the process. Many thanks!
Dan

Re: Fishless Cycle Mistake 2/13/07
Good Morning:
<Daniel>
I just wanted to clarify a point with regards to my fishless cycle question. Yes, 8ml is a lot of ammonia; however, I did some research on the ammonia that I used and found that it only contains 2% ammonia. 8ml of this product brought my ammonia to 3ppm, 2ppm shy of the recommended 5ppm.

I ended up draining the tank and cleaning everything with water that I treated with prime in an attempt to save as much bacteria as I could. I went out and bought a product called "Austin's Clear Ammonia", and after checking with the manufacturer to make sure the product is pure I'm starting the entire process again.
<Better by far to "start" with an organic source of ammonia (protein)... food... that will provide a steady supply...>
With the help of a nasty filter cartridge from a locally owned trusted LFS
<Ah, good>
I'm hoping to put some fish in it soon. Thank you so much for your help! Your site is simply awesome!
<Thank you for this follow-up, clarification. Bob Fenner>

Bio-Spira Confusion 1/24/07
Dear WWM Crew,
<Hi Katie, Pufferpunk here with you tonight.>
My first tank, which I cycled 2 years ago, was cycled with fish (I now know better).
<Glad to hear it.>
That cycle progressed in a straightforward, linear fashion, which
made sense as I tested my water each day. I now have an 7-day-old freshwater 26-gallon bowfront. I used Bio-Spira to cycle the tank and I am confused on the progression of cycling. The LFS said to put fish in, wait a day to get some ammonia going, then shake and empty the refrigerated product into the tank.
<I always suggest pouring directly into the filter, then immediately stock the tank with fish. I would think if you let the ammonia be produced by the fish 1st, not only are the fish suffering ammonia poisoning, the B-S will have to deal with more ammonia than if added at the same time as the fish. This is how it's meant to work.>
I wanted to start with 6 white clouds and 4 rasbora but they said that might not generate enough ammonia, so I added to that 4 Cory cats.
<Although B-S is made to be able to instantly cycle a fully stocked tank, a smaller amount of bioload will suffice.>
I brought them home, put them in the tank that had been filled and running for a day (after floating the bag). The next day I fed them in the morning and put the Bio-Spira in at night. I was testing the water daily and for the first few days, nothing--no ammonia, nitrites, nitrates; the water was cloudy, which I read on the Marineland website was normal. Then I started getting
ammonia readings around day 4, still no nitrites, then by day 6 (yesterday), my ammonia appeared to be a "2" on my color chart. I was alarmed and performed a 50% water change.
<Should be fine after 48 hours of adding B-S. You can add Prime to dechlorinate & detoxify ammonia to a non-toxic form of ammonia that can still be eaten by the bacteria.>
I then went to the LFS to buy another pouch of Bio-Spira,
thinking that perhaps my bacteria died while waiting for enough ammonia to be produced. But the LFS said I shouldn't have done the water change, that the ammonia is rendered harmless by the Bio-Spira and that now I may have diluted the Bio-Spira too much to work.
<The B-S should have been attached to the surfaces of your tank by the 4 days & wouldn't be free-floating in your tank.>
I was under the impression, having read it frequently, that Bio-Spira cycles "overnight". Even if that's exaggerating, I can't seem to find information regarding what type of cycling progression to expect (i.e. will I ever even see nitrites in my testing?) I bought another pouch, which is currently in my fridge. Ammonia is .5 today but I am now getting a trace reading of nitrates! The store said that my cycling would proceed normally (i.e., I'll get ammonia readings, then nitrites, then
nitrates) but it will just not take as long as cycling without the Bio Spira--that it should take 3-4 weeks. Why do I see trace nitrates when I have not
gotten any nitrites?
<Totally incorrect. If the B-S has been kept properly refrigerated the whole time, you will see no ammonia or nitrites & trace nitrates, after a few days of adding the product & stocking the tank.>
Is it true that ammonia is rendered harmless by the Bio-Spira?
<Yes>
Does Bio-Spira work overnight or take 4 weeks?
<Overnight>
Should I add the second pouch?
<Couldn't hurt. Or you could try the Prime & water changes & see how it goes.>
I'm so confused. Thank you for helping me with this. By the way, all the other water parameters are normal and temp is within tropical range.
<There's good info explaining B-S at this website & these folks know a lot about the product, if you're having problems with it.
http://fishstoretn.com/bio_spira.html
A lot of research has gone into this product. If you're really into scientific jargon, read this:
http://www.marineland.com/science/nspira.asp
I think the biggest problem folks have with B-S is that if it hasn't been kept refrigerated, from Marineland to the tank, it will starve, rendering it useless or at the very least, not enough live bacteria to fully cycle a tank properly. I hope this helps. ~PP>
Katie

Start Up Cycling Products
Hi, I set up my new 46 gallon tank just 2 days ago and used a product called Cycle by Hagen. The product has been in the tank for around 36 hours and the water looks cloudy (I realize this is normal). I do not know how quickly this product can cycle the tank completely, but I heard Marineland's Bio Spira can completely cycle a tank within 24 hours. Do you know how much the product by Hagen speeds up the process? Do you think ammonia and nitrites would be at 0 in a week or so, or should I get some of the Bio Spira if I want results that quickly? If I do get the Bio Spira, would it be ok to add it to the tank since the Hagen product is already in there? Thanks
<I have all of my tanks for many years. I usually give someone and old used sponge filter and tell them to "ring it out" into their tank to get the bacteria started. If you have a Marineland filter with a Bio-Wheel then I would just swap wheels. Trade a new one for a used cycled one. I have many friends with aquarium maintenance businesses and they have tried all the cycling products. They all use Bio-Spira. It works when it says it does. I would recommend the Bio-Spira and get your tank up and going the weekend.-Chuck>

Re: Adding Bio-Spira To A Maybe Established Tank
Thank you very much. I will use the Bio Spira, will it matter that it will be going in the tank after a different cycling product was already used?
<No, go ahead and use it. Medications may affect the biological filtration.-Chuck>

Re: Adding Fish To A New Tank, FW Cycling 1/14/07
One more question: should I put fish food in the tank as a source of ammonia so that the Bio Spira bacteria has something to feed on until the fish are put in the tank?
< The bacteria need something to eat or they will go dormant. Put in the Bio-Spira as per the directions on the package. It will last until you add the fish, as long as you do not wait too long.-Chuck.>

Hagen "Cycle", Bogus? 11/9/06
<Hi Cody, Pufferpunk here>
I have a question that I could not find but a few topics on. That is the product Hagen Cycle. I have set up a 55 gallon freshwater tank, with gravel and a tetra whisper hang on filter, rated for 60 gallons. The filter has 2 bio filters on them. No fish have been added, nor will any until the tank completely cycles. Anyway, my question was I purchased the Hagen Cycle before I read any reviews, and they all say its bogus!
<Absolutely, the stuff is total bunk! It's nothing but dead bacteria in a bottle. >
I did come across a few reviews that said it was good to pour the whole bottle in to get a few bacteria going but that it lacked necessary ingredients to get it fully cycled. My question is would adding the entire bottle, which I bought the smallest one, be a major set back to getting my tank cycled? Also, I plan to add live plants, should I plant them before or after the cycle completes?
<Return that junk. The only product that contains LIVE nitrifying bacteria to "instant cycle" your tank is Bio-Spira. Nothing else will work. You can also do a fishless cycle (just do a search) but that will take a few weeks. If you do decide to go the Bio-spire route, you should pour it into your filter then you can fully stock your tank the same day. You must add fish or you'll have to feed the bacteria with ammonia. You can plant the tank before cycling it. Might even help it along. ~PP>
Great website! Thanks, Cody

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