Discus... stress beh., hlth., incomp. with angels    12/12/08
Good afternoon,
I am hoping you can help me out with a discus problem.
Currently I have a 330 litre tank with a ph of 6.4 and temp at 28C as well as quite a few fishes,
20 Rummy nose
4 bristle nose
4 angel fish (paired, very territorial)
10 Zebra Danios
1 blue diamond discus
4 red melon discus
(Is this too many for the tank?)
<Sounds great. But Angels can be quite waspish, so I'd watch how the Discus behave. It's pretty common for Angels to bully Discus. There's also a risk of transmitting diseases that Angels don't seem too bothered by, but can cause real problems for Discus.>
The red melons were added 6 days ago. On the 1st day they got "head butted" by the blue diamond a fair bit, I read up on a site and dismissed it as a greeting of some sort.
<Well, Discus are hierarchical, but if you upped the group to six, I'd fully expect them to settle right down.>
Now the 4 red melons are slowly showing black patches on their face. There is one that is particularly bad, his upper and lower fin has a dark shade around the edges while his back fin has gone from clear to black. I've read your previous posts about unhappy discus turning black, in my case it is only to their head and fins their body is still bright red.
<Could well be stress; Discus when stressed typically show a series of dark vertical bars on the flanks. I'd carefully observe the interactions within the Discus group, as well as between the Discus and Angels. But as ever with Discus, do a quick check of water quality and especially water chemistry. In soft water tanks pH can drop rapidly, and as pH drops, biological filtration becomes less efficient, basically stopping altogether at around 6.0. Cheers, Neale.>

Re: Discus  12/14/08
Thank you Neale, for the prompt reply,
I will move the Angels out in the next couple of day and put in 2 more red melons.
Will let you know how it goes.
Regards,
Leon
<Sounds like you have a good plan there. Let me know if things still don't work out. Good luck! Neale.>

Discus with I believe with HLLE (yep!)  11/05/08 Hi I have a 75 gal tank with 8 Discus four are the size of the picture I am sending and the remaining being silver dollar in size. Filtration is a Penguin BioWheel 350 filtered with Bio ceramic filter balls and filter cartridges w/activated carbon, second one is a whisper filter 60 gal that I use filter cartridges with. 1 airstone. Gravel1-1 1/2" deep. Artificial silk plants. Feeding is as follows: San Fran Bay Frozen Spirulina Brine shrimp, San Fran Bay frozen beef heart, Beef heart flakes, Hikari bio encapsulated w/vitamins bloodworms, Hikari microwafers, frozen plankton, omega one color flakes, omega one vitamin flakes, Tetra cichlid sticks. I dose the water with VitaChem once a week and add to frozen food. I vary the food giving flakes and frozen everyday and feed 4-5 times a day. Water parameters today are: AMM- 0, Nitrite- 0.3, PH- 7.5, temp- 85 degrees. Water changes are done once a week at 75% change with Kordon NovAqua Plus. I want to make sure this is HLLE I noticed Sunday clear matter floating around like poop but totally transparent note all fish have normal poo.  This was discovered on fish yesterday added salt and this morning it is worse can you let me if I am correct in HLLE and I've read the threads metro is what I should use. The first picture is yesterday, next two are today. <Greetings. This does indeed look very much like Head-and-Lateral-Line-Erosion, or HLLE. This disease is "caused" by one of two things, possibly working in combination, though the precise details are obscure. The Hexamita parasite is at least partially involved, and while normally associated with problems with the digestive tract (commonly observed as white, stringy feces due the excess mucous production) the parasites somehow can spread to the surface of the fish under certain situations. Once that happens they cause the sensory pits on the head and flanks to become infected and ultimately the pits decay, causing the tell-tale wounds we call Hole-in-the-Head (HITH) or HLLE, depending on where the wounds are seen. It is possible Hexamita is latent in many fish, and only under specific situations does it become a problem, and both diet and water quality seem to be extremely probable triggering factors. With cichlids, any nitrate level about 20 mg/l seems to lead to a, elevated risk of HLLE/HITH. Every cichlid I have ever seen with the disease was in an overcrowded tank or one with infrequent water changes, and this is based partly on observations of my own mistakes! Bob Fenner has also written convincingly about the appearance of HLLE/HITH in marine fish as being closely related to lack of vitamins. Herbivorous fish are particularly prone to receiving inadequate diets, and cichlids are overwhelmingly at least partially herbivorous in the wild. Even fish-eating cichlids will be consuming herbivorous fish, and in that way consuming the plant material in the guts of their prey. Tinned peas, Spirulina flake and cooked spinach are usually taken by even the most carnivorous cichlids. So while the immediate treatment is Metronidazole, long term you need to review water quality and diet, and see if there's anything there you can improve. Cheers, Neale.>

Sick discus- Discus Not Eating 06/15/08
I have an 8 month old discus that was very healthy last week no it is not eating and is pooping clear I read it could be internal parasites but what can cure it ? Please don't say metro because I've been reading that it don't really solve the problem? Please I don't him to die
Thanks
< Check the water quality of the tank. Ammonia and nitrites should be zero and the nitrates should be under 20 ppm for domesticated discus and under 10 ppm for wild discus. The water temp should be around 80 to 82 F. If these look OK then do a 50-30% water change and vacuum the gravel. Clean the filter too. Now that the environmental factors have been addressed we can look at some of the others. In the wild discus actually eat algae and very small aquatic invertebrates. Sometimes commercial foods are too rich for their long intestinal tracks. These foods may cause a blockage. Now the bacteria in the gut start to break down the food instead of the fish's body absorbing it. As the bacteria grow and multiply it extends the gut of the fish and stresses the rest of the body. Not too many medications can be absorbed into the fish's body. If too much time goes by then no medication will work because the infection has gotten too large. The bacteria or other parasites grow faster than the medication can kill it. Other factors include organics in the water. Many medications are absorbed by the activated carbon in the filter or by the mulm found in the gravel. When not treated effectively the bacteria and other parasites can build up a resistance to any medication and will make it totally ineffective. Metronidazole is a reasonable treatment. It needs to be done early and often. You may have already waited too long for any treatment to work at this time. If you want to believe the other source that Metronidazole doesn't work, then I have heard that Clout or a triple dose of Furanace has worked on occasion.-Chuck>

Fin nipping in all discus tank – 04/1/08
Hi guys. It has been a while since I sought your sage advice, but I am back again with a new issue. First, I want to thank you for all of the extremely useful advice that you have given me in the past!
<Cool.>
I have a 55-gallon discus only tank that is home to 8 discus ranging in size from 3-6 inches or so. All of them have done well together from the beginning and we are starting our 3rd year now. Obviously, some of them eat a lot more than others-the size difference between the largest and smallest fish is staggering. And although they do chase each other around and have face-offs every day, there have been no injuries, and all of them have eaten well (some better than others!), and stayed healthy and active...until now.
<Oh?>
I recently noticed one of the medium-size discus hanging out in the corner by himself instead of with the rest of the group, but didn't think much of it at the time. Not long after that, I noticed some very obvious fin-nipping damage on the back edges of his dorsal and anal fins. I then realized that it had been a few days since I had seen him joining the community meals along with everyone else. That was about a week ago and I still have not see him eat. On top of that, the exterior cover to his gills looks kind of frayed, his color has become pale, and he is breathing faster than the other fish.
<Discus are of course territorial once mature and in the mood for breeding. So it may well be you have one mated pair that are driving off the other fish. But if it is just the one fish showing signs of ill health, consider other factors, e.g., Finrot rather than nipping. Do a water quality test. Look over the fish for signs of eroded lateral line, hollow stomach, red patches on the body or fins, etc. Different symptoms will help pin down different diseases.>
I have read that damaged fins will grow back, so although I found the damage to his fins very disturbing (especially after two years of harmony in the tank), I didn't immediately panic but maybe I should have. I thought perhaps that they were not getting enough food, so I increased the amount of food per feeding, but stayed on the same schedule. (morning and evening). After all, I have never seen my discus stop eating when they could still graze around and find any more morsels of food.
Okay, so more food is going into the tank and mealtime lasts a little longer, but the guy with the fin damage still doesn't eat. All of the others eat ravenously, then graze until the food is all gone. They look really healthy and vibrant-like they could jump out of the tank and arm wrestle me! I see no obvious evidence of disease on any of the other fish.
<Hmm... I'd tend to suspect this fish is otherwise ill rather than nipped. Check water, but also check the fish itself for signs of Hexamita or whatever.>
I am afraid that I have waited too long now. There has been no improvement in the past week and I am afraid I am going to lose him now. Any advice will be gratefully accepted.
<Would use an antibacterial/antibiotic medication now on the assumption that at least a secondary infection is likely. Quarantining the sick fish and observing carefully would be sensible.>
Nothing changed before this happened-no new fish or decorations. Water changes 30-35% weekly as usual. What could have caused this?
<Difficult to say without seeing the fish or knowing anything about the environment.>
Thank you for reading my post and for any advice you can offer.
<Cheers, Neale.>