Water hardness, Discus    2/17/08
Hi. how are you? It's me again. I just wanted to know what is the approximate hardness for discus. Your articles said about 10 degrees GH. Is this the same as 10 degrees dh? Thank you for your help.
<Please read this article before you do anything else:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwh2oquality.htm
If you don't 100% understand water chemistry, then don't start adjusting the water chemistry in your aquarium. Instead, do a water test on your tap water, and then choose fish that are adapted to those conditions. If your local water is hard, then stick with hard water fish. In any event, there's no such thing as "10 degrees GH" which is why I'm warning you to be careful. I'm guessing you mean "10 degrees dH" which is sometimes referred to as the 'General Hardness', hence 'GH'. But the scale itself is in units dH, which stands for Deutsche Haerte, or 'German Hardness'. Discus vary in their optimal water hardness requirements. Wild-caught fish will need water that is quite soft, ideally 3-10 degrees dH. Tank-bred fish are less fussy, and will do well at up to 15 degrees dH, maybe even slightly more. But regardless of the water hardness, the Discus need water chemistry stability, and that means that you understand -- and can manage -- the Carbonate Hardness of the water (measured in degrees KH). Cheers, Neale.>

Adapting, FW, fish, water cond.s... e.g. Discus and hard water   2-9-08
Hi again. I just wanted to know, is it possible for a fish to adapt to a certain water condition? For example, a discus adapting to a slightly hard water. Thank you.
<Up to a point, yes, fish will adapt to a range of water chemistry conditions. But the degree to which this is true depends profoundly on the species in question. Guppies won't adapt to soft/acid water, for example, even though they will do well in hard water, brackish water, and if acclimated carefully, even seawater. Wild-caught Discus simply must be kept in at least somewhat soft, slightly acidic water (i.e., pH 6-6.5, 3-5 degrees dH). Tank-bred Discus are a bit more amenable to harder water, and will do well at pH 7, 10 degrees dH. Given that Discus need much warmer water than most other tropical fish, and are also that bit more sensitive to bullying and nitrate poisoning, there's no point keeping Discus in a "community" setting, so you may as well set up the one tank just for them with precisely controlled water chemistry. Cheers, Neale.>

High ph and low alkalinity, Discus sys.    10/22/07
Hello,
<Hi there>
I am a long time aquarium keeper who has been quite lucky over the years and just let my tank be whatever way it balanced itself to be and have kept a general variety of fish without any problems or turmoil.
That is until I decided that I want to keep discus. In talking to my LFS about doing this it was recommended that I change some things within my tank before purchasing discus otherwise I would just be wasting my money and their lives.
<Let's see>
All things recommended have been accomplished over the past year (not without much appreciated help from you guys I might add) except one.
The main and most troubling change is "buffering-in" a lower pH. I have done everything you have recommended; I changed to RO water to solve the liquid rock tap water problem; I lowered my KH to 3dK; I incorporated several pieces of driftwood; I began religiously changing out 20% of the water in the tank every week; etc, but guess what? pH is still 7.4-7.6.
<This may not be an issue... Are the Discus you keep tank-bred and raised (i.e. not wild-caught?)... If so, this pH range is likely fine>
I did try phosphate buffers which did a great job of keeping my pH where I want it between 6.5 and 6.8, but caused an algae bloom, and dropped the KH to zero, so no more phosphates for me thanks.
I have tried several other things to bring down the pH as well, including allowing the detritus to build up in the gravel
<Mmm, not recommended>
which just brought about a blue-green algae problem and I have tried non phosphate acid buffer which only chips away at the KH before disappearing and allowing the pH to rise back up.
<Yes>
So this is where I am and I hope that you can help. I use RO water and add back the minerals using Kent's RO right. I add 1.5 tsp to 15 gal, which results in a TDS reading of 170ppm on an electronic probe, and an undetectable reading on a calcium/magnesium GH titration test kit ( I don't know why GH is so low with this product, nor do I even know if I should be concerned with it since the TDS reading is high enough). I add KH by adding bicarb to attain a KH reading of 4dK. Then I use this water for my changes.
<Mmm, depending on the make-up (GH, KH) of your source water, I'd likely give up the Kent's product and just add/blend some of this in with the RO>
I have heard much on alkalinity and carbonates to buffer against a drop in pH, but what about buffering against a rise in pH?
<Is a/the same concept... a buffer "holds" or resists change in both directions... depending on the "trend" in captive systems (most all are decidedly reductive, as in reduction/oxidation... OILRIG, "oxidation is losing, reduction is gaining...." electrons... Acids are proton donors, electron acceptors... basic (not a pun) chemistry... Tanks tend to "go acidic" with time... resultant from feeding, decomposition processes, crowding...>
What "stable" chemicals, and acidity buffering tests etc can be employed in the fight against a rising pH?
<First, the discovery of alkaline/alkalinity sources... Likely substrate here... perhaps more pre-eminently, the checking of your test gear as well....>
I already have my KH as low as anyone would recommend.
Thank you
SL
<Again, really... I would NOT be concerned with the mid 7's pH you state... IS fine, esp. if the Symphysodon have been captive-produced... I would suggest another 20% change of water (twice per week) to lower metabolites... Much more of a likely issue than pH effects. Do please read this excellent piece by NealeM here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwhardness.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>

Establishing Discus tank   9/20/07
<<Hi. Tom here.>>
I would like to establish a discus only tank.
<<An enviable project!>>
A site online mentioned that it is better to intro other compatible fish first to establish a bio load.
<<If the site is speaking of using other fish to cycle the tank, I’d be very reluctant to use any other information it provides. That practice had its “sunset” at least a decade ago and ‘fishless’ cycling has been around the hobby for much longer than that. Now, in fairness, Discus are very sensitive to water conditions so it could be that the site you’re referring to is recommending adding compatible fish AFTER the tank has cycled to try to minimize the impact on the Discus when they’re introduced. Rather wishful thinking if this is the case since any additional fish will always affect the bio-load to one degree or another. (I highly doubt this is what they were getting at but I’m feeling generous this afternoon. :) )>>
And that the discus should not be introduced for six weeks.
<<That would depend totally on the results of water testing. Six weeks may be more than enough time or, it could just as easily be premature. I doubt there’s a single member of this Crew who’d suggest a specific time frame without benefit of some specific information about the water conditions. Ideally, you would be testing regularly to monitor the rise and fall of ammonia/nitrites in the tank. When only nitrates are detectable, you’re “golden”.>>
Is it possible to obtain the same effect by purchasing bacteria from the LFS?
<<Yes, but I’ll qualify that by saying that the product needs to be BIO-Spira from Marineland. Many off-the-shelf products are largely ineffective at cycling a tank quickly and some are outright wastes of your money.>>
If so, how long should I wait to introduce the fish?
<<No longer than 24 hours and better if within 8-10 hours when using BIO-Spira. The Nitrospira bacteria responsible for nitrifying nitrites are quite slow to reproduce – dismally slow by bacterial standards – and need a source of nitrites rather quickly to remain viable and propagate. The upside, however, is that the tank is about as “instantly cycled” with the use of this product as you can reasonably ask for. However you choose to go about cycling your tank, using live fish for this purpose shouldn’t even be considered an option. Potentially sacrificing life when there are quick, safe and effective methods to accomplish the same thing would be completely irresponsible and cruel. Now, my “soapboxing” aside, I wish you the best of luck with your Discus tank. I’m sure you’ll enjoy the results! Tom>>

Re: establishing Discus tank   7/21/07
Hi again,
<<Greetings again.>>
At the risk of sounding stupid, I need something clarified. After adding the bottled bacteria, can I introduce discus fish?
<<Not a “stupid” question at all. Yes, you can introduce the Discus after adding the bacteria. My apologies for not being clear on that point. Tom>>

Discus/ Maintenance, reading    9/11/07 
Hello crew!
I would like to thank you for taking the time once again to assist me with my discus issues. I just have a couple of questions to pose to you!
Firstly, I have a 68 gallon discus planted tank, and was wondering if there is a more efficient way of conducting my weekly water changes. Currently, I empty the 2/3 of the tank, then have to refill with a watering can!
<Yeeikes!>
I have read that there is some sort of tool or apparatus that can be used to assist in such a task?
<All sorts...>
Something that attaches to the sink?
<Mmm, is your tapwater the source here? If so there are basically "water bed" fill and drain kits sold... by Python Products, Lee's... and water bed companies/outlets that will get you this>
With my growing hobby, which is becoming an obsession, I need to make my water changes as efficient as possible in order to get to cleaning all my tanks in one afternoon.
Secondly, I was curious to know how one can construct a fish room. I have seen on various discus breeders websites, the idea of some how linking all the ( 20 odd???) tanks as one system?
<Sure...>
I was just interested to know how I would be able to construct a fish room, with say 9 or 10 tanks all linked on the same filtration system? Is it a job that requires a plumber, or can a couple of guys who are handy around the home make such a thing? Any help or direction would be really helpful.
<Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/AqBizSubWebIndex/cntfiltbiz.htm
and the linked files above>
Once more, thanks for your encouragement and guidance!
Jarryd
<For Discus... you likely will want to make, store treated water... heat it... and use a fluid-moving pump... Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/discussysfaqs.htm
Bob Fenner>

Discus setup and R.O.; Tank Mates For Discus   8/26/07
Hello crew, Have put up posts on the public forums but no reply as yet and tbh would appreciate a fairly quick reply if possible. Since the volume output production of my R.O. unit is slow, a trickle, it is best at the moment for me to perform one 15 litre w/c per day which over the course of a week equals a 50% w/c on both tanks. This equates to a 7 - 8 % w/c each day. Is this low level change ok to do or are the benefits minimal?
< This depends on where you water chemistry is now and where you want it to be. If you are trying to lower the pH then it probably won't do much good. If you are trying to lower to total dissolved solids then you should be fine.>
I'm getting two huge tubs soon so I can just turn it on and walk away for a couple or few hours without having to tend to it all the time.
Last of all, my father and I have decided to take the direction of our main display tank to a Discus setup. I have read Bob Fenner's article called "The cichlid fishes called Discus". I'm trying to find out if the temps for them would be too high for Syno cats, eupterus and nigriventris. Mr. Fenner gives an example of suitable fish companions for Discus, was wondering if there was a particular exact source (or your recommendation) for a few more species. I don't think I'll be able to get the pH low enough for cardinals.
We appreciate that these fish need extra special care and fully intend to create as perfect and suitable environment for them as possible, low lighting, correct plants, right GH and KH etc.
Many thanks team. Steve.
< The Synodontis cats get big and are big eaters. I'm afraid that they would bully the discus away at feeding time. Look for tankmates that can tolerate the same water conditions and will leave the discus as the dominant species in the tank.-Chuck>

Plant Issues for discus tank   8/22/07
Hello everyone at WWM,
My name's Peter Johnstone, I live in Melbourne Australia. Like many others, I've been (excitedly) reading for a couple months now after stumbling onto your site while looking for general aquarium advice. Your site is amazing and has helped increase my understanding immensely which is very much appreciated. I've got a few questions that I'll put together because I think they're probably related somehow. I've got a small, approx 90 L (22G) freshwater tropical tank which has been running very successfully for approx 4-5 years as a community tank with some basic plants. Here's the stats for my tank so far: Tapwater is very soft and ph neutral.
Approx 90L, under filter, with only a gravel substrate approx 3-5cm thick 18W plant-grow single tube (6 weeks old), adequate heating.
Temp is now 28-29 degree Celsius (changed from 24ish about 2 months ago)
pH 6.4
ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 10/15
GH 5
KH 4
I have
7 cardinal tetras (? small amount of ich, non responsive to 2 weeks at 32degrees and Multicure but seem happy otherwise)
1 black ghost knight (growing healthily)
2 glass cat fish (very interactive)
1 pearl gourami (appears happy)
2 flying fox (doing their job)
2 bristle nose
Am planning on getting 2, 3-5cm discus in the near future once I've got a hold on everything.
I have the following plants with the attached problems. Any thoughts on the cause would be most appreciated.
4 various Anubias (edges of the leaves and new shoots being eaten/nipped off-added lettuce and zucchini which are eaten up daily with no changes to the plant state)
1 wisteria (happy)
2 Amazon swords (1 growing slowly, one has rotting roots which turn brown and translucent and rot off. Not sure why may be terminal)
some small old java ferns (very very slow growing)
java moss (not dying)
stag horn java fern (new growth turns brown and dies within 1-2 days for no apparent reason. Tiny new shoots still sprouting occasionally)
1 Bolbitis fern (only the rhizome left after it turned very dark green/brown and rotted away, 2 days after being in the tank from the shop)
3 pieces of drift wood.
Here's the history.
I'm aware that under filters are not great for plants, however the tank was originally given to me as is, and I've been learning more along the way. The plants were doing very well up until the end of 2006, with essentially no algae, when I went away for 2 weeks and left the tank in the care of my housemates. On return I had lost almost all of my plants due to an unknown reason- no problems with the fish. I've been learning more about the tank in an effort to get some discus soon and so have the current plants and testing kits as stated above. Since the big die off, I've never been able to get the plants to grow well again and I'm not sure why because nothing else has changed. I have a few remnants of the java fern which have very slowly regrown a couple of leaves off the rhizome root over the past 6-9 months however I bought 2 great specimens a couple months ago, only to have them both start rotting from the bottom up within two days of them being in the tank. 1 week later they were gone- and no the roots weren't buried in the gravel. Why will the old plants regrow slowly, but new ones of the same species die off so quickly? the Bolbitis died off within 2 days too. Not sure if its rhizome will survive. I've lost every type of crypt that I've tried to house with the leaves becoming transparent and flaccid -> rotting off. The rest of my plants are o.k. but non thriving like they once did when I had multiple flowering anubias. I have started using fertilizer pellets and some liquid fertilizer to help add nutrients about 2 weeks ago. Is it possible to over fertilise, because I think I initially put in too many pellets as my water levels blew out to high ammonia, nitrate and nitrite levels and the ph dropped within 4 days, which is rare as my tank is always very stable. I removed much of the pellets, multiple water changes and all's back to normal with no fish fatalities thankfully. So here's the questions.
As I'm looking towards getting discus, I've put the temperature up from approx 24 to 28 degrees in the last 2 months. Can this effect the plants I have or have attempted to have? My fish appear much more active and happy since the temp went up. All fish are growing nicely.
Am I likely to get good plant growth with my setup or is it flawed from the beginning with the under filter, and if so, why was I able to get good growth for the first few years?
Also, something is eating/nipping many of the anubias plant leaves and any new growth that does appear. I'm yet to witness the culprit after hrs of observation so I'm thinking it may be a nocturnal thing. I'm sure I have no hitchhiker snails. Any thoughts on who's to blame?
Are products such as black water extract likely to be of benefit to me and can you suggest any others that may help.
Any other thoughts/advice on the general setup would be most appreciated before I get the discus in. If all goes well for 6 months or so I'll probably invest in a nice 4*2*2 setup and redo everything properly, keeping the old tank for quarantine/breeding.
Again, any help/advice you can offer is greatly appreciated. Thanks again for such a useful, entertaining and interesting site.
Cheers.
Pete J.
<Hello Peter. Your problem is insufficient light coupled with the wrong water chemistry. Lighting for shade-tolerant plants needs to be upwards of 1.5 Watts per gallon, and for most everything else at least 2-3 Watts per gallon. So, Java ferns and Java moss will want no less than 33 W of light in your tank, and the Amazon swords 44 W upwards. This is non-negotiable: while plants can adapt to quite a lot of things, light is something they can't do without. The type of light used makes a big difference, too. Lights optimised for terrestrial plants (e.g., Gro Lux) don't work well in aquaria because the red light doesn't penetrate water well. Instead you need something around the 5500 to 6500 Kelvin colour temperature. To human eyes, this will seem blue-white. Adding reflectors to the lights is a low cost way of getting the best from them and highly recommended. Second, the water chemistry. Relatively few plants like soft water, and many are highly intolerant of it. A lot of aquatic plants get at least some of the carbon used for photosynthesis from dissolved bicarbonate salts. Aim for a water hardness around "medium hard" on the GH and KH scales for the best results with a broad range of plants. If this is out of the question, then carefully select plants that tolerate soft water. Amazon swords -- despite the name -- include many common species (such as E. bleheri) that don't like soft water. And very few plants come from water that is completely soft in the way aquarists mean it when keeping blackwater fish like discus. If you look at those blackwater habitats, there is virtually no aquatic vegetation at all. As for the damage to the plants, when the plant leaves start to decay, they can become attractive to Loricariid catfish that would otherwise ignore healthy plants. I agree with you that trying to get rooted plants (like Cryptocorynes and Amazon swords) growing in a tank with an undergravel filter is a waste of time. They won't ever do well. But epiphytic plants, like Java moss and Anubias, which should NEVER be planted in the substrate, should do fine. Since you have a mind for discus, and ideal water for them too, you may decide to forget about plants. Plants are NOT part of the discus habitat in the wild: dead wood is what they swim around and lay their eggs on. Hope this helps, Neale>

Discus Fish Tank. Water Changes In A Soft Water Discus Tank – 07/25/07
Hello Crew, I am setting up a Discus/Planted tank. The tank is 60 gallons with a corner overflow, a 25 gallon sump, 2x175MH Lighting. I plan to let the tank run for at least a couple of weeks until the Co2 injection lowers and the pH to around 6.5 and the Water softening pillow has time to do it's thing. My question is: What is the best way to perform the water changes. I read that you do 80% changes a week. How could I do this with a sump and plant life in the tank? If I drain all that water with a python system, wouldn't the plant life be out of the water? If I use the python, connected directly to the faucet to fill back up the tank, wouldn't the temperature difference in the water shock the fish. I am confused by your stated method. I know you recommend putting Seachem's Prime before refilling but please clarify your recommended procedure. Thanks, Matt
< You need to balance the needs of the discus with the needs of the plants. Breeding pairs of discus in small tanks require numerous massive water changes with clean warm acidic water to remain healthy. Plants on the other hand require some light and nutrients in their water to flourish. In you situation I would recommend that you fill your tank with treated tap water and use Bio-Spira to get the biological filtration going. Add easy to grow plants like crypts, Anubias and java fern with some driftwood. Forget the water softening pillows and the CO2. Use a Fluorite type of substrate for the plants. Use domestically raised discus instead of wild fish. Heat the tank to 82 F and try to get your discus to eat Spectrum Discus Pellets. The pillows simply replace the calcium in the water with sodium. They don't get rid of it. If you add CO2 to hard water the calcium in the water will bind with the CO2 making a calcium carbonate. This will make the CO2 unavailable to the plants. Once all the calcium is tied up you have no alkalinity or buffering capacity in the water. Additional CO2 will convert the water to carbonic acid and could dangerously drop the pH very quickly. The overflow will quickly agitate the water and dissipate most of the excess CO2 gas. The plants will help remove any nitrates from the water so weekly water changes of 25% will probably do unless your tank is very overcrowded with fish.-Chuck>

Converting from r/o water to tap water in my discus aquarium-BIG pH difference! – 07/03/07
Hi guys. First, thank to all of you who have so graciously answered my previous questions. I have learned a LOT from reading on this website and from the experts here.
<Welcome>
I am very interested in converting from r/o water to tap water in my 55 gal discus aquarium. They need minerals, etc that they have not been getting from the r/o water,
<Mmm, good... Yes... some... all depends on a few factors... What your source water is "made of", how "wild" to cultured your Discus are...>
and I need to improve my water change method. Pouring r/o water into the tank by the gallon is really old now after 3 years in this hobby! I have had my discus for a year now, and all seem to be happy and healthy.
For my first mixed water change, I used 3 gal treated tap water plus 20 gal r/o in my 55 gal aquarium. I treated the tap water with Seachem Prime and aerated it in a bucket overnight using an airstone that I already have. I tested the water before using it. Nitrate and nitrite were zero. Ammonia was also zero, but I understand that the Prime could have affected that test. Here is what concerned me about the tap water: the pH was high-it read as high as my test kit measures, 8.8.
<Wow! Liquid rock!>
The pH in my tank is somewhere between 5 and 6, I believe. I do not know WHAT the pH actually is. My SMS122 controller seems to have malfunctioned. Even after replacing the probe, the reading it gives is too low for the fish to be surviving, much less be doing well, according to Neale (thank you Neale for the information). After doing the water change this weekend, the reading on the controller went from 4.1 to 7.0. Hard to believe that 3 gal of tap water plus 20 gal r/o could move the pH like that. What do you think?
<I think your previous water/system had almost no alkaline content... was likely very poorly (and dangerously) buffered... and that the change was in the right direction>
Any recommendations or advice will be very gratefully received! I do not want to stress my fish during the transition. If you can recommend how to proceed from here, I would really appreciate it. What should I do about the pH and how slowly should I mix in the treated tap water?
<I would continue with the changes in about the proportion you're doing them, and observe your Symphysodon carefully>
I have read that treating the tap water with peat would soften it and lower the pH. I tried this early in my discus fishkeeping, and lost one small little guy the morning after adding a small amount of peat to the aquarium (may not have been related to the peat I guess). What I used was Scotts Sphagnum peat moss. The bag states 100% peat moss. I see no mention of any additives.
<Mmm... don't always state... better to either buy "aquarium use" material or even just an "extract" product really...>
My fish are great little buddies who have survived my novice care, equipment failures, and my mistakes for a year now! I want to keep it that way! Thanks again for any help.
<I suspect the mixed tap and RO will serve you and your fishes well here. I would not be overly concerned with the resultant system pH if it is about neutral/sevenish. Bob Fenner>

Re: Bacterial Hemorrhagic Septicemia / fin and tail rot... Mmm, "Discus" H2O qual.  - 7/4/07
Bob,
<SL>
Here are the results:
<Ah, good>
To 15 Gal RO water I added 1 tsp of RO right which brought the TDS to 110PPM. Then added 1 tsp baking soda which brought the TDS to 180PPM. Then waited until next day to measure Ph and it was 7.2.
<Right about right>
The water is mixed in a large trash can with wheels and is aerated and heated. GH and KH readings are zero and 3 d respectfully.
<Okay>
What puzzles me is that the GH test kit shows zero dGH.
<... is strange... the sodium bicarbonate and Kent product should elevate this... Would you try adding "quite" a bit to the test sample to see if this will register?>
(I used 10ml water in the test tube instead of the usual 5ml to see if I could get a half reading and it still turns green on contact and stays green.) Is the calcium carbonate/magnesium test important as long as the TDS is within range?
<Mmm... a bunch to say/state here... It "could" be important... The actual make-up of the dissolved solids can play havoc or heaven with plants, fishes, invertebrates... They all "Do" need alkaline earth materials/atoms (Ca, Mg...)>
I test the TDS with a meter, so it measures all dissolved substances.
Also, how do I lower the Ph back down to 6.8?
<I REALLY would NOT do this... a pH of 7.2 (and how much alkalinity? Alkaline reserve? Needs to be tested if the pH is "sliding" quickly...) is fine... I assure you>
I have been using the phosphate buffers to do it up until now,
<I would NOT do this... the soluble phosphate can be problematical>
but they are the major contributor to my high TDS readings, not to mention the hair algae if I let the nitrates hit 40PPM.
<Ah, yes... As we state so often, do keep these under 20 ppm... the lower the better>
Ultimately I want to keep discus, but until I can learn to stabilize soft/acidic water conditions, I am afraid I would just kill them.
SL
<Actually... Again, I have a good deal of confidence in your obvious intelligence and attention to detail... And a working knowledge of just how tough Symphysodon (except for the occasional wild-caught ones on the market) actually are. I consider that you are well ready to take on Discus culture. Bob Fenner>

To the Discus Masters, sys.  – 07/03/07
Heyyy everybody.
(Ugh. Hello.>
After years of salt water am going fresh. Discus that is. Well if that's possible. I want to set up a 29 gallon tank and I was wondering how I could stock it. I've read one discus is bad by itself and they are no good in pairs. Is this true.? Would three be overstocking??? Also, if possible, I would like to add tetras. Please email me back on what you suggest on stocking the tank with.? Thank you to everybody at this site, its helped me a lot and you better believe I do give a lot of referrals to you.
<Tank-bred discus are surprisingly easy to look after. While you want to avoid very hard and alkaline water, they will adapt to pretty much anything up to slightly alkaline (pH 7.5) and moderately hard water (~10 dH) just fine. In fact there's a good argument for maintaining moderately hard water because of the resulting stability in water chemistry. Far, far more important is water quality. Large, regular water changes are the order of the day with discus. A 29 gallon tank is probably a bit small for anything other than a breeding pair. You really want something around the 55+ gallon mark to have a school of 6 specimens. Choosing tankmates for Discus isn't difficult though a lot of people prefer not to. Personally, I'd recommend hatchetfish for the surface (to act as dither fish) and Corydoras or better still Brochis spp. for the bottom. Many Loricariidae catfish work well (though I'd avoid Otocinclus because of their semi-parasitic behaviour). Because Discus need very high temperatures, avoid anything subtropical (like peppered Corydoras) or anything borderline-tropical (like red phantom tetras or White Cloud Mountain minnows). Some folks keep them with Clown loaches and pearl gouramis; although not authentic, the combo seems to work well. Just avoid anything potentially nippy (like Black Widow tetras) or aggressive (like angelfish or blue gouramis). Bob's written a great Discus primer here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/discusfish.htm .>
:-)
<Er, okay. Good bye. Neale.>

R/O Water and Discus 6/30/07
Hi crew!
<Hi, Pufferpunk here>
I have used only r/o water in my freshwater discus tank for a year now.
<Not necessary. Most discus nowadays are tank bred, in regular tap water. I do 90% weekly water changes with tap water, conditioned with Seachem's Prime.>
Although the fish appear to be fine, I realize that I have failed to add back in minerals and trace elements that the fish need. My choices appear to be either reconstitute the r/o water or convert to tap water and treat it prior to adding it to the aquarium. Therefore, I am interested in converting to tap water, very slowly of course. I will treat my tap water with Seachem Prime,
<Aha! Took the words right out of my mouth!>
as is recommended on this site and aerate it in a storage container for a couple of days using a powerhead.
<Not necessary. I just drain, adjust the temp & fill, after adding Prime to the tank.>
My question is this: how gradually would you recommend adding
in the treated tap water? A guy at the LFS recommended 10-15% treated tap water to begin with, then increase tap water about that much w/each water change. In addition to increasing the TDS,
<TDS has no effect on FW/SW fish, unless your tap water contains ammonia, nitrites or nitrates.><<What? No! RMF>>
it should also effect the pH in the tank, which is less than 6 and has been for a while. I do not know exactly what the pH is because my SMS122 pH controller appears to have failed and my freshwater test kit only measures down to pH 6. If I do weekly water changes of approx 40% like I am currently doing, would this result in too much change too fast? Any advice will be
gratefully received!!
<I would start with 25% every other day for a week & then do at least 75% weekly after that.>
I have purchased a Rubbermaid Brute 44gal trash can with top, and one of those cool dollies to roll it to my tank! I plan to pump the treated water into the tank using the powerhead. I am very excited about improving my water change method and giving my fish better water!
<Make your improvements even easier by just using a Python to drain & fill right from the tap. Can't be much easier than that.>
Thanks for all the great advice on this site!!! You guys are the best!
<Hey, thanks a lot! We try...>
P.S. Do you have any recommendations for the powerhead? I will only need to pump from the storage container into the aquarium, so I guess the head would be less than 5 feet. I plan to connect pvc pipe with a couple of elbows to the end of my hose so I can just hang it on the lip of the tank and let it fill.
<Keep it simple! (Unless you are planning a reef tank in the future.)>
Thanks again and I hope you all have a great Independence Day!
<Happy 4th to you too! ~PP>

Planted Discus Tank, gear    6/24/07
Hi crew! First, allow me to thank all of the experts who participate in this website. It is a wonderful resource. Thank you all for sharing your knowledge and experience.
<Welcome!>
This is my first post to this website. I have spent numerous hours reading here, so please also excuse if my questions have been addressed elsewhere on your site. Also, please excuse the length and the variety of questions regarding both livestock and tank setup. I have attempted to give you enough information so that you won't have to ask a lot of questions before you can answer my questions.
<Okay>
My goal is to have a beautiful planted discus tank (thank you Alesia Benedict-you are an inspiration to me!) One year ago, I embarked on the adventure to accomplish exactly that. After researching discus for several months, I decided to take the plunge. I sold my other livestock to the LFS and ordered my discus. When I purchased them, I did not know how many would survive my novice care, and I probably purchased more than I should have for the size tank I have. I seem to have done fine keeping them for the past year-I agree that they are not as difficult to keep as some people believe. In this time, my fish have grown from about 2.5” to between 4.5-5” for the larger ones (I have 2 runts I guess-they are about 3” and have not grown noticeably in many months.)
As far as the plants go however, I have not been successful with them.
<Mmmm, wonder why?>
I am currently planning to upgrade from my 55 gallon to a 90 gallon tank. My goals for this upgrade are: first, to give my fish more room in order to increase their comfort and hopefully allow them to grow larger.
<Mmm, maybe you can/could keep the smaller tank going to try and boost the growth of the "runts"?>
Second goal: to slowly add some plants that should thrive in the higher temperature and lower pH. Third goal: to add some Cardinal Tetras and maybe Bristlenose Plecos too, after the new tank has been up and running for a while and the discus are settled in. Is this too much stock for a 90 gal?
<Nope>
If not, how many Cardinals and Bristlenose would you recommend adding?
<A dozen or more Cardinals... 4,5 Bristlenose>
I am researching the items that will be needed for the new tank. Of course, I would like to use everything that I can from the old tank in order to save $. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated! Here is my current setup:
Tank: 55gal All-Glass
Lighting: Coralife Freshwater Aqualight 48”, 4x65W Power Compact Strip
Light w/ Adjustable Mount Legs **want to add CoraLife AquaLight power center $39.99 @ BigAl's
<This won't be much light on a 90... both it and the 55 are relatively deep>
Filtration: Eheim Pro II 2026 Canister Filter **need more EHFISYNTH white filter pads (EH2616265) $8.79 for a box of 3 @ www.MarineDepot.com
<A good unit... you may want to supplement/complement this with a large/r hang on power filter... Maybe a Hagen product>
Heating: AquaMedic 250W Titanium Heater, AquaMedic BioTherm Temperature Controller **need to get 500W heater for new Aquariu-look at Finnex FNX500D-it has overheat protection feature $42.39 @ www.aquariumpros.com
CO2: Milwaukee SMS122 pH Controller, Tygon Tubing, Swagelok B-SS4 Needle Valve, Double-Gage CO2 Regulator, M-Ventil Solenoid Valve, 5lb CO2 Cylinder, Eheim CO2 Diffuser
Substrate: Fluorite *need to buy more for new tank: Eco Complete or Fluorite?
<Both good products... I use Fluorite>
Plants: I have tried a variety of FW plants with little success over
time. Obviously, they were not good choices for the application
Currently, I have only one plant that has managed to survive the tank
conditions, a fairly large Anubias Barteri.
<Mmm, do read on WWM, elsewhere re the use of soils in the gravel/substrate... a great boon here>
Livestock: Eight discus, ranging in size from 3” to 4.5-5”.
<Again, I'd move six...>
Notes and questions about new setup:
a) Lighting: I will be able to use my current lighting with the new tank.
Both tanks are 48” long.
<There is a need for more intensity...>
b) Filtration: My current filter is rated up to 92 gallons; do you think it will provide sufficient filtration for the new tank or would you suggest upgrading the filter?
<I would add to it as posted...>
c) Heating: I will need to purchase a 500W heater for the new tank. I am looking at the Finnex FNX500D, which has overheat protection feature that shuts the heater off if tank temp reaches 92°. This sounds like a very good safety feature, especially considering my experience with the Won Brothers temperature controller. I have had two failures of the temperature sensor on the Won controller, and the last time this happened, the tank temperature soared to the mid 90's before I discovered it (my poor fish!) NO MORE WON BROTHERS! Does anybody have any experience with the Finnex controller? Any other suggestions?
<Seem to be fine units>
d)C02: I should be able to use all of my current equipment in the new tank.
<Yes, agreed>
e) Substrate: I will need to purchase more substrate for the new tank, which is 5” deeper than my current tank. I could (1) add more Fluorite to what I already have, or (2) mix my Fluorite with something else like Eco Complete, or (3) go to a completely different substrate. Any suggestions?
<See WWM re... I'd add a soil to the lower layer...>
It would be great if cleaning, moving plants, etc. in the new tank did not create a big cloud for the fish to have to try to breathe in, as it does now.
<Can be "blind-potted" if this is your choice>
And finally, regarding water quality for my discus: they have lived in R/O only water for a year now.
<Mmm, need to have... Oh, I see you address this below>
I am sorry to say that after all of my research I somehow overlooked the importance of adding back minerals and trace elements that the fish need. <embarrassed> Should I now begin treating the water to introduce trace minerals, etc?
<Yes...>
Do you recommend any particular products for this and would you just follow the manufacturers directions?
<Likely just blending in some tap/source water>
Aside from reconstituting the R/O water, I have read that it is desirable to "age" it before adding it to the aquarium, in order to increase oxygenation. How would one “age” a large quantity of the conditioned water prior to adding it to the tank?
<Leave in a designated trashcan or such, aerated, heated, near the tank for ease of movement>
Thank you in advance for taking the time to read such a lengthy email. I
look forward to your reply. Any information will be GREATLY appreciated!
<Thank you for sharing. Bob Fenner>

Water Changes for Discus  5/10/07
<Hi Christa, Jeni/Pufferpunk here.>
I have a stupid question, sorry to bother you but I am disabled and rarely get out, so I have to use this thing.  
<LOL, I use this "thing" (the Internet) for all my research.>
I have a 80gal tank with discus.  I recently purchased the fill/drain kit that hooks to the kitchen faucet.  
<I couldn't live without the Python for water changes on my 9 tanks.  That includes my 90g discus tank.>
How can I treat the water so that it doesn't hurt my fish? I use
Aqua Safe and pH 6.5 on them.  I also use SeaChem discus buffer. Any help you can offer would be greatly appreciated.
<I do 90% weekly water changes on my discus tank.  All I add is Seachem's Prime, before I fill the tank.  Buffers & pH adjusters are not necessary, as the majority of discus on the market today are not wild-caught.  They are bred in the same water that comes out of your tap.  ~PP>>
Thanks, Christa
Have a great Day!

Hole in the Head on Discus/plant questions  4/17/04
Hi Crew,
<Hi Eric , Pufferpunk here>
Thanks for your past help and running a great site.
<You're very welcome!>
I am hoping you can give me some advice with this issue. I have a 72 gallon FW heavily planted tank housing 26 cardinal tetras, 1 Ram, 2 Otos, and 3 captive bred discus (about 3” lengthwise). All were added over the space of a few months, quarantined and prophylactically treated (I have to look up the protocol if you it is needed) for 2-4 weeks. The filter is a Aquaclear 110 running with Zeolite, peat moss in pantyhose, carbon and sponge.
<I don't think this is enough filtration for that tank.  On tanks larger than 50g, I would add a canister like an Eheim.>
Everything is changed about once a month and the sponge is cut in half so only half is changed at a time. The heater is not on since the ambient temp plus heat from the lamps (220w PC run for 2 bulbs on 12 hrs/ the other two only on for 6) keeps the water between 76 and 78 deg F (cooler end at night).
<Discus need to be kept at much higher temps: 84-86 degrees.>
There are a bunch of Malaysian trumpet snails and some type of small snail that looks more typical and hitchhiked on plants (I don’t mind since they leave my plants alone as long as I drop in some Spirulina every now and then).  I usually try to do a 20-25% water change every two weeks but with a new baby its hard.
<Discus need 90% weekly water changes.  Discus breeders do 100% daily!>
Since the tank is lightly stocked and heavily planted the parameters stay good anyways. My latest params are (nighttime) – pH 6.6, total Ammonia – 0, KH – 3 dKH, 6 dGH, nitrates – 0, nitrites -0, phosphates 1 mg/L. I dose Seachem Excel and Flourish once a week and add Seachem Acid buffer at water changes (tap water here is soft, but the Tahitian Moon sand contrary to their statements raised my pH and hardness).
<Parameters sound good but there are things we can't test for in our tanks.  Tank-raised discus don't need all those pH lowering additives.  They are born into normal tap water.  I use none of this & only add Prime during water changes.  Carbon really isn't necessary either.  I wonder if you are getting pH swings?>  
Now here are my questions:
One of discus (they were purchased in early December and quarantined for 3-4 weeks) has developed what I think is Hole in the Head. At first it looked like an enlarged nare but now I see that it has enlarged further and deepened. It doesn’t exhibit any other signs or symptoms that I am aware of. It eats fine (I feed a mixture of live blackworms, fruit flies, flakes, frozen assortment, which is thawed under running water first) and pellets and still keeps its rank in the pecking order. I have read on your site and others that some think that HITH is caused by poor water quality and others think it is a bacterial infection (I believe that it is probably a combination, no?).
<Actually a parasite.  Poor water conditions lower a fish's immune system, making it more susceptible to disease.>
I have read all kinds of treatment suggestions from Maracyn to Melafix (which I doubt has any value).
<I swear by Melafix for minor bacterial problems, scratches, small wounds & frayed fins.  Definitely helps quicken the healing, along with stronger meds for worse problems.  HITH is a parasite--flagellate protozoa, called Hexamita.  Treatment: Adding a chemical to kill the Hexamita (Flubendazole, eSHa - Hexamita, Waterlife - OCTOZIN, Seachem - Metronidazole CLOUT, Fluke-Tabs, Aquatronics - Hex-a-mit, etc.) and secondary bacterial infection (Melafix).>
I just did a water change and pruned out a bunch of overgrown Java moss and shook out some of the rest and a bunch of sediment came out but my params were fine before the water change so I don’t know if that is the problem. Anyway, my dilemma is do I just sit and watch right now?
<Could get worse.>
Do I quarantine and treat?
<I'd treat the whole tank.  Parasites can be contagious.  Anti-parasitic meds & Melafix will not harm your biological filtration.>
I am afraid of stressing the fish out but on the other hand, I can't treat the whole tank and anyways none of the other fish are exhibiting any problems. Do I add some kind of vitamin supplement to its food (I saw that recommended here)? If so, how and what do I add?
<I soak all my fish's foods (even live blackworms) with Zoe vitamins. A lot of folks believe this parasite comes from feeding live foods, especially live worms.  I have been feeding live worms to all my fish for years but I  check the batch at the LFS, before it's bagged up.  If there are a lot of dead worms, I don't buy them.  I rinse well in a brine shrimp net, add 1/4" water & a few flakes, along with some drops of vitamins & let sit overnight in the refrigerator.  The next day, I pour into the net again & throw out any dead worms on the bottom of the container.  I do this daily.>
I really put a lot into this tank and the fish and everything looks beautiful. It is my first attempt at discus and I would hate to lose this fish. I am looking forward to your advice.
<There is nothing more beautiful & peaceful than a planted discus tank.  ~PP>
Sincerely, Eric
New York City

Adding to one of yesterday's answers, Discus hlth., sys.    4/19/07
Hello there Crew,
<Nicole>
I hope you don't mind, but I feel compelled to add to an answer. It's "Hole in the Head on Discus/plant questions  4/17/04" which was answered very adeptly by Pufferpunk.
<Please do>
For Eric's discus, perhaps he could try medicated flakes such as those offered by flguppiesplus? Here's a link to flakes containing Metronidazole:
http://flguppiesplus.safeshopper.com/256/cat256.htm?5
<Thank you for this lead, link>
I also wondered why Eric would have Zeolite for chemical filtration in his tank, instead of activated carbon or a carbon resin blend.
<Me too>
Probably unrelated to the HLLE his discus are experiencing, but I would still switch out that Zeolite for a bag of Chemi-Pure, if it were my setup. My thoughts on Zeolite, Ammo Chips, etc. were that these interfered with the nitrifying bacteria - however, I notice some folks use these instead of, or along with, carbon.
Your thoughts? Thanks for listening!
Nicole
<I am in agreement. Thank you for sharing. I do hope Eric will see this... and do know that many others will over many years, and that your effort will help them and their livestock. Bob Fenner>

Plants for Discus and Angel Fish  – 4/10/07
I have a 60gal freshwater aquarium with 2 Discus and 2 Angel fish in it I would like to know if I should use artificial plants or real plants...
<Aquatic plants aren't part of the normal discus (or angelfish) habitat: these fish live in the "flooded forest" where nutrient poor waters wash around sunken wood and the trunks of huge trees. The fish live hidden among the wood, and when pairing off, guard bits of wood on which they lay their eggs. So by all means use real or plastic plants if you wish, but the fish don't care. They'd sooner have nice tall bits of real/artificial wood that they can explore, guard, or school around. Also bear in mind not all common aquarium plants enjoy soft/acid water. Vallisneria spiralis and the common Amazon sword Echinodorus bleheri for example both like neutral to basic, moderately hard water.>
...also if it is a good idea to  use volcanic rock in it as decor.
<Volcanic rock -- if you mean artificial lava rock rather than actual pumice -- does acidify the water. This is the porous, reddish-brown "rock", right? While harmless enough in a tank with a basic pH and lots of hardness, in a soft water discus tank I'd personally be vary wary of using it. At least, not without trying a little first, and monitoring the pH for a few weeks before buying any more.>
I do not want the fish to get hurt on the rock.
<They shouldn't.>
I would also like to know how many of these fish I can put in it if I was to add other fish and what kind of fish I can add with them and how many.
<Discus, and to a slightly lesser degree angels, need good water quality. Understocking is the easiest way to get this. Also, once they mature, angels especially become very territorial, and will hold an area about 60-90 cm in diameter, vigorously pushing away any conspecifics. So while you can probably house half a dozen of either fish in a 60 gallon tank, the question is whether you want to and whether the fish will put up with that once mature. As for tankmates, both angels and discus appreciate slightly higher than average temperatures. Lace gouramis and moonlight gouramis can work well though both are a bit large. Clown loaches also work well, but again, rather large. Small tetras (e.g. Neons) become angelfish food so not recommended. Bleeding heart tetras, silver hatchetfish, African Glowlight tetras, and other non-nippy characins of this size would work well. Warm-water catfish include Brochis spp., Bristlenose plecs, and non-subtropical Corydoras (i.e., not bronze or peppered Corys). Very small Suckermouth cats, like Otocinclus spp., can attack the sides of these slow moving fish to eat the mucus, so avoid. Likewise aggressive loaches and cichlids will often terrorize them. All this said, discus are perhaps best kept alone, simply because it makes maintaining water quality good so much easier.>
George
<Cheers, Neale>

Discus In A Planted Tank   1/28/07
Hey there after lots of research and countless hours. My answer was still unclear. Now the question. do I need a CO2 system for a fish and heavily planted tank?
< The plants will do better with some CO2 in the water. Some stem plants like frill usually need CO2 to thrive. Sword plants and Cryptocorynes usually don't require CO2.>
Is this tank ready for discus?
< Discus can live in a bare tank to one that is heavily planted. Discus do not like to be stressed. I would recommend that you wait until you tank is fairly well set up before adding discus. If you are going to add plants after they are in and established, then I would work in small areas over time so not to disturb the tank too much.>
I am looking to make an Amazon biotope.
< These are very pretty tanks, except that in the Amazon the warm acidic water is so poor in nutrients that there are very few aquatic plants.>
Right now I am running a 75 gallon FW. The substrate is 135 lb.s. fluorite 4 in. thick all around and 6 medium driftwood pieces some plants 3 Amazon swords
2 canister filters Eheim pro  2128 thermo and Rena xp3. temp is about 30.6 C. or 85 F.
< I think this is a little too warm but I know other discus keepers keep their tanks this warm.>
pH.5.7 kH 3 gH 1,  Peat is being used in one filter for its added benefits.
Fish
20 neon tetra
10 glow light tetra
5 rasboras
1 king tiger Pleco L 065
The tank is month old, I do 2 water changes a week with RO/DI water 30 gallon
each time. I treat the RO water with equilibrium powder form Kent Zoe, Discus Trace
< Sounds like a great tank. I would recommend adding Bio-Spira from Marineland to make sure your tank has all the biological bacteria established and you don't get any spikes.-Chuck>

Discus and Tiger Barbs  1/20/07
<Hi Byron, Pufferpunk here>
I have a lightly planted Juwel Record 70 (70litre = 18 gallons, I think).  I currently have 6 small tiger barbs which I recently introduced but I would really like to have 2 turquoise discus, 2 sunset dwarf gouramis, some Dalmatian mollies, maybe some swordtails, guppies and small Corydoras catfish.
<Boy, your dreams are definitely bigger than your tank!>
I will upgrade to a larger tank as they grow but my question is about the compatibility of these fish species.  Will I have to take the tiger barbs back, are they too 'nippy'?
<Definitely.  Discus enjoy a nice, peaceful tank.>  
If this is a complicated combination of species could you give me some options, as to which species I have mentioned will live together happily?
<Stick with your above choices, without the discus.  They are extremely difficult fish to keep, needing huge weekly water changes (90%). A larger tank will be necessary to keep these fish happy.  
As all these responses are posted in our FAQs, please capitalize "I", when used as a pronoun.  I have done this for you this time.  ~PP>
Thank you, Byron Dunleavy.

Discus In Hot Water    1/5/07
Thank you Chuck, By increasing water temp to 82, did you mean 92?  I normally keep the temp at 86 but in the hospital tank I've got it set to about 92 - should I cool it? Michaela
< At those water temps there is not much dissolved oxygen in the water and your fish will be stressed to get enough oxygen to breath. I would cool it down to 82 F.-Chuck>

Re: Attn: Jorie Re: Follow-up queries to planted discus aquarium topic   1/4/07
Hello and Happy New Year, Mike - Jorie from WWM here.  I was just curious how your newly planted discus tank was faring? My 29 gal. BW is currently at 1.004 SG (almost to 1.005 - I've been doing it very slowly for the plants' sake), and currently houses 1 juvie molly (female) and some ghost shrimp.  Thought I'd send you a picture just for fun...and would love to see how your tank is doing. You and I started our respective tank's "journeys" at about the same time, so I just wanted to see how things were going.  For me, knock on wood, all is well.  I've got 5 bumblebee gobies in a 10 gal. QT tank; as soon as the main tank's SG reaches 1.005, they will be transferred, and I will acquire either a pair of orange chromides or a figure 8 puffer for the QT - whichever I can locate first around here.
I'd love to see, hear about your tank...
Best regards,
Jorie>

Nitrates in a Discus tank.    12/26/06
Hi Crew,
<Ari>
    My discus grow-out tank is a 125 gallon w/ all-glass megasump model 4 below.  My nitrates are too high (can be over 40ppm depending on day of week) probably from lots of high-protein foods.  I do a lot of water changes, but wonder if I should adjust my setup to help deal with nitrates.  
<A good idea>
    It is a heavily planted tank with plenty of stem plants, swords and Glossostigma, Riccia, and java moss ground cover. Have pressurize co2, 500watts of lights on tank, reverse photoperiod an 50 watts below, 2-4 inches of Fluorite main tank with undergravel cable heater, about 4 inches of freshwater miracle mud in sump, I left bio-balls in the sump.  I also just added water lettuce and hyacinth to sump (read an article on this website suggesting this).
<Mmm, these last two re really too cold-water plants to be used here... I'd try other tropical species, lighting here... on a differing, though over-lapping light cycle with the main tank>
   I don't vacuum substrate because of ground cover plants.  Do you have any suggestions to help me lower nitrates besides cutting down feeding, and more specifically, do you think I should a) rip of ground cover so that I can siphon gravel better,
<I would not>
b) should I add more Fluorite, miracle mud, or another type of substrate and
<I would do this>
d) should I remove bio-balls?  
<Yes...>
    All advice is very much appreciated. - Very truly yours, Ari.
<And in the meanwhile "kick up", increase the frequency, amount of water changed... daily if need be. Bob Fenner>