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FAQs on Freshwater Blue Green Algae (BGA) & Their Control
Related Articles: Freshwater Algae & Control, Algae
Eaters, Otocinclus, Loricariids, Siamese Algae
Eaters/Crossocheilus,
Related FAQs: Freshwater Algae 1,
Freshwater Algae
Identification,
FW Algicides, Algae Eaters, Aquarium Maintenance, Freshwater
Aquarium Water Quality, Treating Tap Water for
Aquarium Use, pH, Alkalinity, Acidity, Freshwater
Algae Control, Algae Control, Foods,
Feeding, Aquatic Nutrition, Disease,
BGA comes in many colors... green, black, red, gray... |
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Red Slime Algae 12/7/08
Hi,
I have a question about red slime algae and a possible way to get rid of
it. I ask my local fish guy what is a best way to get rid of it. He says that he
has some pupfish that love red algae. But on your site you stated that there
aren't any clean up crews. So will they help at all? But am going to take the
red algae out by hand and hopefully get a siphon. But will a pupfish help keep
it down in the future?
thank you very much,
Amber F.
<Pupfish
(non-annual Cyprinodon-type killifish) can and will eat many types of algae
including blue-green algae (or Cyanobacteria, of which red slime algae are a
type, despite the name). However, the problem is that blue-green algae grow very
rapidly, and they're also specific to tanks with certain types of problem. In
particular, tanks with poor water circulation and/or high levels of nitrate and
phosphate. Unless you fix those problems, adding new fish, even those that eat
algae, will simply make a bad situation worse. By far the best "fix" is to give
the tank a thorough clean, siphoning out any and all blue-green algae. Then
review conditions:
upgrade filtration and reduce stocking as required.
Ensure water circulates throughout the tank, and ensure you're keeping up to
date on water changes (25% per week is the minimum for busy freshwater community
tanks). Lots of folks make the mistake of seeing algae as something that
needs fixing by adding livestock; in fact algae is very specifically a sign that
a tank isn't balanced, and is a warning sign of other, less obvious problems
brewing in the background. If you add livestock to an already unbalanced
(overstocked) tank, all you do is add more nitrate and phosphate to the system,
tipping the odds in the FAVOUR of the algae, making things worse. A balanced
tank with the right numbers of fish, plants, invertebrates and water volume will
normally have little algae generally, and usually no
blue-green algae at
all. Cheers, Neale.>
Interesting fact/fiction about Cyanobacteria 9/13/08
Dear Crew,
<Andy>
I was perusing Reef Central and came across a
thread on the use of red slime remover to eliminate Cyanobacteria. Whenever I
see someone advocating for its use, I try to jump in and advocate AGAINST its
use, explaining all the reasons for my opinion, directing them to WWM, etc. In
any event, one response to this thread stated that when Cyanobacteria dies, it
releases cyanide.
<?>
At first, I started laughing and thought "this is a
ridiculous statement"--the guy is clearly confusing "Cyano" and cyanide. But, I
did some research on the internet and found some sites that state studies have
shown that all forms of Cyanobacteria release cyanotoxins and cyanide when they
die rapidly, such as would happen when erythromycin is used. See here for
example: http://www.alken-murray.com/Cyanobacteria.htm.
<Mmmm>
Before I
searched the internet, I searched WWM for information. I found very little to
confirm or debunk this statement. I did find one post by Bob addressing a
poster's question about why his/her sea horses might appear to go limp after
hanging onto and breaking up BGA in which Bob implied/stated that the sea horse
is getting a dose of cyanide from the BGA.
<Mmm, I hope not... Cyanobacteria
are known to degrade cyanide/s...>
However, I also found the following posted
by Neale in the FW section:
"BGA doesn't kill fish. The idea that it is
poisonous comes from non-biologists confusing the name of the group of bacteria
(Cyanobacteria) with the word "cyanide". In fact the "cyan-" part of the name
refers merely to the colour. There are in fact some fish that eat the stuff, as
well as snails and other invertebrates. Anyway, it is best dealt with by
balancing the tank[.]"
<Mmm, and I do disagree with this statement. A cursory
look even on the Net will show that BGA decomposition does release deadly
materials>
If Cyano does in fact release cyanide into a system when it dies
rapidly, this is just one more reason to never use this product. Can anyone at
WWM confirm this or offer any further insight into this?
<Mmm, cyanides are
any triply bonded carbon/nitrogen... attached to other matter... There may be
"some" cyanide in Cyanobacteria, but I warrant very little... the commonality
with the names "Cyan", meaning blue is a bit confusing perhaps... but these
bacteria (and indeed ourselves) have biochemical mechanisms for degrading
cyanides within our tissues, not producing, or releasing such>
If this is
true, you might want to edit the article on BGA to make this clear to all
potential users of red slime remover to drive home the point that this product
is dangerous.
<These products, use is indeed dangerous... for the general
reasons stated... the release of toxic factors, and possible rapid reduction of
dissolved oxygen. What's more, their use will not eliminate the root cause/s of
BGA proliferation:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-us%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7PCTA&q=cyanobacteria+control+toxicity>
Take care!
Andy
<Bob Fenner>
Re: Toxicity of Cyanobacteria 9/13/08
Hi Bob,
<Msieu Neale>
Read your FAQ answer on Cyanobacteria. I have to confess to talking from the
freshwater perspective, and so far as I know there aren't any directly toxic
forms that occur in aquaria. Multiple species of fish consume the stuff in the
wild, e.g., Cyprinodon spp. killifish and Ameca splendens. I would certainly
agree that a mass die-off of these algae -- or indeed any algae -- isn't a good
thing, and quite likely oxygen consumption through mass decay is as much a
threat to livestock as anything else. As for marine Cyanobacteria, quite a few
are known to be very toxic indeed, apparently "hundreds of times" more toxic
than potassium cyanide. http://www.interciencia.org/v21_06/art01/summary.html
But I still haven't read anything that states Cyanobacteria actually
contain/produce cyanide at or above the levels present in other photosynthetic
organisms.
<Mmm, yes... some are known to contain... "some". A bunch could be discussed re
aminonitriles...>
As you doubtless know, cyanide compounds are all around in the natural world,
particularly plants, most famously being quite concentrated in peach
stones and almonds. Cheers, Neale
<And you, BobF>
Cyanobacteria. Non use
8/6/08
Hi Bob,
I live in Portugal on the lee shores of a large man made dam used for
irrigation purposes.
<I see>
Have just seen a notice in the council offices that there is a concentration
of Cyano bacteria, which I presume is Cyanobacteria in our area. Now I
intend to cut the grass that has been growing under the water now that the
level is receding, and making it into hay .
<Mmm>
Can the hay made, after being exposed to temps of 30C+for a few days ,
contain any bacteria that could be harmful to the livestock that
consumed it.?
<Unfortunately yes. I would bury this material.>
I look forward to your reply.
Regards.
Bill Halstead.
<Ahh, a famous name. Bob Fenner>
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Blue Algae (Cyanobacteria)
problem. 4/1/08
Hello,
I noticed several small patches of blue algae in my new 46-gal tank. My mistake
was to move some plants from the 10-gal to the 46-gal thinking that what was in
the 10-gal was simply algae. After some research I understood that what I
thought was algae is instead Cyanobacteria. I also read that this pest is
extremely difficult to defeat and I'm starting to get a bit nervous.
<Don't get paranoid. It doesn't do any harm. Unsightly, yes. But it doesn't harm
the fish or plants. Remove manually, and then minimise re-growth.>
I see there are antibacterial remedies on the market, but I'm afraid to kill the
good bacteria as well.
<It doesn't. It's merely Erythromycin. While it certainly kills the blue-green
algae (BGA), you have to remember having a lot of decaying stuff in your
aquarium isn't a good idea for obvious reasons. Much better to manually remove.
In any case, however you kill/remove the BGA, if conditions suit, it'll be back
within weeks.>
Some people suggest a 3-day blackout. However I also read that the bacteria goes
dormant during the blackout and comes back when the lights are back on. This
last approach could also damage the plants that I have in the tank for lack of
light.
Do you have any suggestion?
Thank you,
Giuseppe
<Eutrophic conditions and pockets of still water, coupled with poor plant
growth, tend to be the factors that allow BGA to develop. Direct sunlight is one
triggering factor. So, increasing water circulation and increasing the amount of
plant growth (which may mean more artificial light) will help. There's no
sure-fire cure for BGA, but slow-moving, nutrient-rich water is what it likes
best. Cheers, Neale.>
Re: Blue Algae
(Cyanobacteria) problem. 4/4/08
Neale,
thanks for your always prompt reply. The affected tank has a bit more than 3
Watt/gallon of light, a DIY CO2 system and laterite mixed in the substrate. The
filter is also pretty powerful and creates enough circulation to move some
leaves slightly. Do you suggest to add a water pump to increase circulation?
<All sounds pretty good. I'm surprise you're getting BGA at all. It is possibly
a transient problem, and if you siphon out any patches of infected sediment, and
crop and covered plants, you might find thing improve once the new plants start
growing. Adding additional water current, or at least redirecting the current
you have, could help. Adding too much bubbling is a bad idea if that drives off
CO2, so powerheads are better than airstones. BGA simply seems to do best where
the water flow is slowest though.>
As for slow plants growth, do you think I should add any kind of fertilizer? I'm
a bit concerned that adding fertilizer would harm the fish, but I've heard that
people add fertilizers.
<Yes, fertilisation is important. No substrate will feed the plants
indefinitely. Eventually at least one element will be used up, and that'll be
the thing that slows down plant growth. Aquarium fertilisers shouldn't harm fish
if used properly.>
Thank you,
Giuseppe
<Cheers, Neale.>
|
Bluegreen algae,
Nitrate/phosphate/ light relationship? 3/30/08
Greetings all!
Some back ground on the issue, hope it is not too much for the basic questions I
have:
I service a 90g cichlid aquarium, currently has 6 med size fish, 2 pc
driftwood-I read this may be an issue but was not in the beginning. pH runs
7.2-have been bumping it up-was originally set up with regular aquarium gravel,
NO3 is 0-5 , 3 dKH- may rise soon as have been adding cichlid substrate temp 78.
No ammonia nor nitrites.. I average 30-45% water changes.. has an Emperor 400
type filter.. I recently added a Magnum HOT filter and have been using HBH
phosphate pads since mid Feb.. An automatic feeder was put into service also in
mid Feb, prior the tank was hand fed.. quite possibly over but it never showed
up in the NO3 tests.....
I have been servicing this aquarium bi-monthly for the past several yrs with
basically no problems. When I first started it had a UV sterilizer that was not
utilized and the tank two ends were covered to prevent light getting into the
aquarium. It appears as though there is a light on 24/ in the same room as it is
in a nursing home. It did have a removable front cover to give the aquarium
darkness, but somehow the cover walked off long ago... Last May I removed the
end covers as it make the tank too dark IMO and the residents could view the
fish from the ends as well....
Last Oct the tank started getting blue green algae- Cyano rather badly and quite
suddenly.. I was rather slow to react.. I only did large water changes for the
first few months, to no avail. I finally understood this was basically like the
Cyano in SW aquarium so I started using Phosphate pads, increased flow by adding
a powerhead- and started adding the cichlid based substrate. In mid Feb the
feeder was installed as I believe that more that one person was feeding the
aquarium..... Since I started this regime, the tank has and is improving
significantly..... however the client and I have somewhat butted heads over the
cause and how I should have addressed it... I should also point out I service 2
other aquariums-ones that I set up about 2 yrs ago with aragonite sand or
cichlid mix , using the same water source and have had no problems.
<Blue-green Algae is almost always related to eutrophic conditions and
insufficient water movement. Bright light, particularly sunlight, can be a
triggering factor but does not in itself seem to be the cause. BGA often
develops where water movement is lacking, e.g., around floating plants or on the
substrate. So the first thing to do when BGA becomes a problem is to check the
water circulation. Adding powerheads and/or airstones is certainly an option in
a cichlid tank given that cichlids tend to enjoy a strong water flow. But you
should also check your filters provide not less than 6 times the volume of the
tank in turnover per hour.>
The client insisted that we needed a Pleco, there was too much light, from me
taking the end covers off and the UV filter should be in service.
<Plecs don't eat BGA so neither here nor there. In fact, adding a Plec will
increase eutrophication of the water, making BGA more of a problem rather than
less. Paradoxically perhaps, adding light can help if you also add fast-growing
plants. This is because the plants have an allelopathy effect that suppresses
algae and BGA growth. UV filtration can help with BGA or algae problems to a
degree, but it isn't a cure and it does depend on the UV filter being maintained
properly (cleaned, tube replaced). But really BGA is very difficult to fix
unless you deal with the underlying causative problem. As you'd imagine, the
bacteria involved are tenacious and present in all aquaria, so even if you "fix"
the problem with antibiotics (one common approach) the BGA can grow back again
in weeks.>
I tried as I could to inform them this is not an algae and was not caused form
the light.. and also I did not believe the UV system would impact it much as it
had not been in service since I started cleaning the aquarium. I am told that
this happened once before, and the other service person installed a UV and
covered the tank to keep out the light. I am not sure what kind of algae they
had and am not sure they really know either... but I do not think it is
important for now....
<Agreed.>
What do you suppose caused the outbreak?
<As above.>
Wouldn't a high PO4 level go along with a high NO3?
<Depends, but regardless in a cichlid aquarium there will always be enough to
potentially drive algae/BGA growth. Remember, both these classes of organism
naturally inhabit waters with minimal amounts of nitrate and phosphate. So even
a "clean" aquarium is as eutrophic as a swamp in comparison.>
Is there a reliable test kit for PO4?
<Yes, used by marine aquarists.>
Why did large water changes basically have no effect on the Cyano..?
<Don't know, but I agree it doesn't.>
In your opinion, would a UV sterilizer make any difference?
<By itself, no.>
Would the ambient light really be an issue?
<A triggering factor in my experience. At certain times of the year when
sunlight strikes a fish tank for a certain period, I've noticed BGA patches just
at the sunniest spot. But regular aquarium lights don't seem to be a major
issue. I've seen BGA in dimly lit tanks, and brightly lit tanks with no BGA at
all. Next to me here is a community tank with rocks and regular algae but no BGA
at all; when it had half the light it has now and lots of plants making the
water more still, BGA could be a real problem.>
Sorry for what may appear to be rambling but I would like to know what may have
caused this to occur.....
<Check for sunlight, increase water movement, maintain good water quality.>
Thanks for your time and attention!
Regards
Denise
<Cheers, Neale.>
Red-orange residue in
freshwater Cichlid tank... Likely BGA... 2/18/08
Hi!!
<Hello Christina>
I have a 75 gallon tank that has been set up since Xmas of 2007. It cycled very
well and houses African Cichlids of various types.
Everyone is happy and doing very well...I have two female holding eggs and
possibly one more, not sure yet. About two weeks after setting the tank up I
notice a red-orange slime that started to cover everything in the tank.
<Yuck!>
It is very obviously coming from the surface as it does not cover surfaces under
plants or other decorations. I have had no Cichlids die though I have twice put
in an algae eater (Plecostomus) and they both died within two days.
<Yikes>
Recently I clean all decorations, did a 50% water change and within one week the
slime was back.
<Good name for it... is likely to some large extent a Blue-Green Algae... aka
Cyanobacteria... many can be quite toxic to ingest>
The city says it's the water system we have that removes all chlorine,
<Mmm, the system you have at home? As in some gear to treat the potable source>
but the water system people tells us that it's the city water and is a result of
oxidized iron settling in the tank.
<Mmm, doubtful... not this amount... not to where you can actually see it
accumulate>
I am at a loss and very disappointed because the tank looks so bad. At least my
little guys are okay right now. Any insight would be wonderful.
Thank you so much for you time,
Christine
<Mmm, there are a few approaches to limiting, controlling BGA... More
circulation, chemical filtration, sequestering microbiologically, competition
with other photosynthetic life, nutrient export... Please read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwbgafaqs.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>
Re: Orange slime, FW algae ID,
contr. f's 2/19/08
Thanks so much Bob...I will read up on that link right now. I forgot
to mention that we also have the red color in our showers and toilets.
This is why I think it's the water and not something in the tank.
<Mmm, maybe, but just a small possibility these are the same... the
shower is likely a ferrous stain, but the pix you sent show an algal
sort of growth...>
Our water system guy did say that coquino has a lot of iron in it, but I
didn't think it would be so high as to leach in and settle so quickly.
<Mmm, no... if this "high", the life would be gone entirely here. The
iron however is likely aiding the BGA... >
Our system is a softener with a carbon filter. I attached a couple
pictures and now that I'm looking at in in the pictures it seems more
orange-brown. In the first picture you can see how it settles as there
is a distinct line where there is no slime. Can algae grow so quickly?
<Oh yes... some forms/types can double their biomass every few hours...>
Two weeks ago tomorrow this tank was very clean of this slime. Thanks
again for all you help
Christine
PS...That is my female Yellow Lab that has been holding eggs since last
Tuesday...any idea when they might hatch???
<Should be within four days or so at temp.s of the higher 70's, low 80's
F.>
Thanks again!!!
<Do read re means of limiting this algal growth... Bob Fenner> |
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BGA/silicate connection 11/9/07
Hi guys, Scott here.
For the second time in about a year, I am battling BGA in my 20-gal freshwater
tank. The tank is heavily planted, with a 65-watt Corallife compact fluorescent
fixture. The bulb is about a year old. Java fern, Java moss, Wisteria, A. nana,
corkscrew vals, and something I think is a variety of crypto are all producing
new growth without CO, and little supplementation. Rotala indica not so well,
but still has new growth.
<Sounds like insufficient light. Rotala is a plant that is a weed under bright
light, but does nothing at all under inadequate light. For example, I've stuck
this species in a garden pond and it has survived and grown even under ice! But
inside moderately illuminated aquaria, it just slowly dies. If light isn't the
issue, check the substrate and CO2 concentration: both of these are key factors
for Rotala.>
For some reason, the rhizomes of my banana plants rotted away, but they continue
to produce new growth.
<Hardly the most reliable plant in the hobby. They need very specific water
conditions depending on the species in question. Seemingly little adaptability.>
The main problem has been BGA that grows over the lower leaves and chokes them
off.
<Common problem. Water quality (nitrate and phosphate especially), overheating,
and direct sunlight are all critical triggers for Blue-green Algae. Often,
treating with antibiotics is the only quick way to completely eliminate BGA, but
if you get good plant growth and stabilise water quality, eventually it fades
away.>
I am using straight well water, which I have tested for silicates at around
10mg/l.
<Silicate isn't really an issue with Blue-green Algae. Diatoms perhaps, but even
in freshwater aquaria Diatoms aren't normally a problem except in immature tanks
or tanks with poor lighting.>
Sometime in the last few months, the pH of my well seems to have increased from
7 to around 7.4. The tank tests between 7.4-7.8. Phosphates are under .25. One
of my local LFS insists that the silicate is what is feeding the BGA.
<No, it's really not. Silicate is hardly used by most organisms. Diatoms almost
uniquely use silicon to produce their external "shell".>
I am considering an R/O unit, because I also have some funky-looking stuff
growing in my saltwater tank. I guess the main questions I have are: Is the
silicate likely the BGA culprit, and if so, will an R/O unit make that much
difference?
<Reducing the phosphate level in the water may help, but the silicate is hardly
here nor there. In freshwater tanks, the way to beat algae is stunningly simple:
fast-growing plants. Hygrophila, Cabomba, hornwort, etc all work well.
Slow-growing species like crypts and ferns have no effect. The theory is that
fast-growing plants produce chemicals that suppress the growth of algae. In my
experience, this method works well, even against Blue-green Algae.>
The silicate test I use states that silicates are not an issue for freshwater
tanks and will usually be between 4-20mg/l. If I go to R/O water, will
decomposing plant material leach silicate back into the water anyway, and if so
for how long?
<Most plants contain very little silicon; the exception are grasses, which
deliberately use silicone to prevent grazing (and this is why grass-grazing
mammals have rapidly-growing teeth -- the silicon is constantly wearing them
down). Hope this helps, Neale>
Re: BGA/silicate connection
-- lesson learned 1/9/08
Hi Neale,
<Scott,>
I thought I'd update you on this exchange we had a couple of months ago. I tried
everything from phosphate pads and powders to erythromycin, yet the black slime
persisted. Finally, as an experiment, I did a series of 25% water changes over
three days. The black slime is disappearing rapidly.
Just goes to show you , even if your test kits are reading zero nitrates and
phosphates, they may still be in your system and are just being consumed by the
algae.
<Indeed. Possibly something not directly measured... sulphate, iron,
magnesium... who knows?>
Also, I want to thank the crew for the information you've put together on Betta
keeping. Because of your advice, I set up a 5-gallon tank, with a
very small HOB filter and a heater keeping it at a steady 82F. The Betta is very
active and happy, and full of personality -- more so than I have ever
seen in any of those desktop/countertop bowls.
<Precisely. While you *can* try and keep a Betta is a big brandy glass, if
you're a little more generous, you'll get far more out of these fish.>
Finally, a quick question. I am trying to advise a friend on setting up a 40-gal
breeder for freshwater. With a tank this length, is there any advantage to using
two heaters and two HOB filters to provide more consistent water conditions
throughout the tank?
<If finances allow, this approach can work very well. More circulation always
results in better conditions in the aquarium, and though 4x the volume of the
tank is a good minimum for community tropicals, 6x the volume is better, and for
many fish even 10x the volume is good. It's a good idea to choose two
under-powered heaters though. That way, if one fails in the "on" position, it
won't have enough wattage to boil your fish. So if your tank needs 100 W of
heating, use two 50 or 75 W heaters. FWIW, this is precisely how my community
tank is run, with a heater and a filter at each end.>
Thanks again,
Scott
<Cheers, Neale.>
|
Lace rock growth, likely BGA 5/2/07
Hey all!
<Denise>
After a quick search, I decided to just ask.... I have lace rock in a
cichlid tank. After about 1 month, the rock has started growing a
blackish film/'algae' type? growth?
<Yes... likely Cyanobacteria...>
I am in hopes it is not the beginning of the black beard type algae
:( I did soak this batch in RO water for a few weeks and rinsed it well
to remove sediment etc.
I plan to add a phosphate hoping this will solve the problem.
<Not likely limiting here... Often Lace Rock is a source itself...>
I am wondering if this is common with lace rock?
<Not uncommon>
I have also used it in another
aquarium with the same issue.
<Do read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwbgafaqs.htm
and the linked files above>
Thanks!
Denise
BTW, once upon a time it was easier to find what we search for with the
'cached' option, this is not available any longer? Researching is no
longer user friendly on this site
<Do try the search tool here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/WWMAdminSubWebIndex/question_page.htm
Unfortunately, all others are not "cached" capable... Google Adsense
doesn't offer such. Bob Fenner>
Massive algae bloom 12/3/06
Hello, I was wondering if you could help me with an algae problem. I have a
green very slimy algae growing on almost everything,
<Ahh, likely Cyanobacteria... Blue-Green (though the color is not definitive)
"algae">
and I don't wont to resort to chemical means as I don't want to harm my plants.
If I did go this route would the bulb of my dwarf lilies be affected to the
point where if I cut all the leaves off that the plant couldn't regrow. any
advice would be appreciated.
thank you,
CJ
<Good that you understand the need to act here... Please give this article and
the Related FAQs (linked at top) a going over:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwalgcontrol.htm
Bob Fenner>
Ich and Salt - Thanks! And BGA FW situations - 11/02/06
Hi Robert,
<Jason>
Don't know if you remember but you answered some questions for me back in the
early summer about curing ich with salt, and I'm happy to report that method
worked flawlessly - haven't seen it since and didn't lose any fish to it.
<Ah, good>
Now I have another problem that I can't seem to find a satisfactory answer to
after combing the internet and WetWebMedia over the last week. From what I've
gathered, I believe the problem to be "Cyanobacteria" (blue-green "algae") - my
plants, rocks, and driftwood have been overrun with a coating of black slime,
and periodically I get patches of a very bluish color in the gravel (most
visible when it occurs along the glass though I'm sure it's in the middle of the
aquarium too). I guess my first question is - in your opinion does this sound
like what it is? In some descriptions I read people describe it as a flaky
substance - it's not flaky in my aquarium, in fact it's very hard to scrub off
the hard substrate and impossible to remove from plant leaves without destroying
them.
<Does read like BGA>
I do a 25% water change once per week where I vacuum the gravel (as I've always
done before the problem), and as needed I remove leaves as they get taken over,
and scrub rocks and wood periodically when it starts to coat a significant part
of them, but it always comes back full-force within a few weeks. I also do not
overfeed the tank - I feed once in day, a moderate amount they can eat quickly,
and not every day - sometimes once or twice every two or three days (logic being
in nature food comes and goes, it's not on a regular schedule). If it helps, my
current stock is 3 swords, 2 platys, 4 Corys, and 2 small-medium angels in 37
gallons. The idea is the angels will feed on the fry of the livebearers to keep
it in control (one of the swords is a small juvenile that was big enough to get
away before the angels were added - haven't seen any fry since...[evil mad
scientist laugh].
<Perhaps related>
The sad thing is, after I cured the ich problem, and before this started, the
plants started booming, and now that this has set in they are completely
stifled. (Let me note here my ammonia/nitrite readings have been 0 since the
tank cycled 5 months ago, and nitrate is low given the regular water
changes.) In removing leaves, new ones don't come in fast enough and now the
plants are losing ground to this instead of gaining, and I'm considering ripping
them out.
Here's another factor I learned about our water here, unfortunately after adding
angelfish. Our tap water has a seemingly "unbreakable" pH of around 7.5. By
that I mean I've come to realize that the "pH 7" products I used to add during
water changes caused only a temporary drop, never lower than 7.2. After getting
angels I tried giving up on those products and adding only "pH drop" products to
try and bring it down closer to 7. That failed too (even after months, after
the "balancers" from the "7.0" products had plenty of time to be flushed out),
to the extent where adding even "massive" doses would not drop it past 7.2 and
it would always rebound to around 7.4/7.5.
<Mmm, this pH range should be fine for "domestic" angels... are quite flexible
with many successive generations having been produced in captivity>
By "massive doses" I mean if the recommended dose said add 1 tbsp/40 gallons and
"more as needed", I could add 3 tbsp over a few days to my 37 gallon tank and
could not break the 7.2 barrier.
<Please read on WWM re... Such changes should be done outside the system,
through water changes... Better to start with "cleaner" water... Reverse osmosis
most commonly... mixed with some straight source water...>
Since most of these products contain sulfuric acid and I don't know what kind of
side effects the sulfur can have I abandoned that too.
<Mmm... actually quite rare to have H2SO4 in commercial products in the
States... too quick a proton donor...>
I did lose a couple of angels early on I got from a major chain over this time
but the second batch I got from the LPS have been hanging in there for a few
months in the unaltered tap water pH and I'm leaving it that way for now (and
won't buy any more if these die until I figure this out). I know a stable high
pH is probably better for them than one that fluctuates.
<Yes!>
Anyway, that was a long way of saying - do you know if the water conditions I
have are favoring the Cyanobacteria/black slime problem? (and secondarily, is
it better to leave angels alone that are in a 7.5 pH and seemingly happy or...)
<Mmm... well Cyano can/will proliferate given conditions that don't favor other
photosynthetic life... An abundance of nutrients, too little intense lighting of
useful wavelengths, poor circulation/aeration... These are covered on WWM as
well.>
Third and final question - I decided today to purchase a canister filter. After
much debate and hearing extremes between people that live by the Eheim and
people that knock the cheaper Fluval, I decided to go with the Filstar XP2 which
most claim to be very reliable. Given my conditions, they offer media to soften
water, and there are peat media out there (not Rena brand yet) that can be added
to lower pH.
<Again, reading... and starting with less solute laden water...>
My question is, in your experience, do you think softening the water could
potentially help with this Cyanobacteria problem I have?
<Not the route I would go, no>
If nothing else I hope it will make the water less stressful on the hardy angels
that are still around. What about peat pellets as a two pronged question -
could this help as well, and given how resistant I've described my water to pH
lowering, can this help counter that significantly using a canister setup or if
adding chemicals directly to the water doesn't help is it foolish to expect peat
can help at all?
<http://wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwalgcontrol.htm
and the linked files above>
With the canister I'm going to take it easy and not attempt to change any
parameters too much too fast of course (I'm going to leave my hang-on running
too for a couple of weeks). For instance, their "softening" pack claims to
lower "general hardness" but doesn't mention pH on the website, so I'm cautious
that adding that plus peat could drastically change conditions.
Thanks again for any help/advice,
Jason
<Keep reading my friend. Bob Fenner>
2-part question - pH and BG algae 10/2/06
I've read through the FAQs and researched other sites and find pieces of answers
but nothing specific about dealing with my water conditions. Hope you're not
too sick of dealing with these types of common questions but here it goes...
<Hi there - this is Jorie. No worries, we are here to help and don't mind
answering queries at all...otherwise we wouldn't do it!>
My tank is about 5 months old, 37 gallons, fully cycled and stocked now with
swords, angels, and Corys (4, 3, and 5).
<Sounds nice.>
It is heavily planted with "sword plants" and the lettucy stuff that grows out
of control and which I thin (and am thinking of getting rid of).
<Trying to think of what the second plant could be - does it grow from a bulb?
Tall and thin? Aponogetons are quick growing bulb plants, and some produce wavy
leaves that I suppose could be described as lettuce-like...>
Once the tank was fully cycled, for about 2 months, the plants really thrived
and boomed in growth, especially the sword plants which I like b/c they are
attractive looking. Unfortunately, about 2 months ago a real problem started to
develop with blue-green algae (Cyanobacteria). Started coating everything with
a black slime, and the plants are obviously suffering from it. I've been doing
a lot of physical removal (scrubbing rocks, wood, clipping leaves that are
particularly bad) which has helped some but it's a losing battle. I regularly
change 10 gallons per week out of the 37 gallon tank (from the day I set it up),
but I fear that part of the problem is just that our tap water is dismal around
here (Arlington, VA) for this kind of thing - lots of calcium carbonate and
iron. I siphon filter my gravel every time I change water and for the most part
the water I siphon is clear so there isn't a lot of debris on the bottom.
<Phosphates are a usual culprit for algae growth - have you checked both your
tap water and tank water for phosphates lately? I suspect you will find a very
high reading. In the tank, I like to use PolyFilter filter media in addition to
carbon to aid in phosphate removal. Also, as you pointed out, the tap water
could be the problem...you may want to look into a RO/DI unit (reverse
osmosis/de-ionized) - that will rid your source water of all the "nasties". Of
course, it's a bit of an investment - I bought mine from www.airwaterice.com and
I believe it was around $200 for a 3-stage unit. Alternatively, if you don't
have other tanks, you could look at a cheaper alternative made Aquarium
Pharmaceuticals (I think) - called a "Tap Water Filter". It's basically just a
de-ionizing unit. It's around $30. You do have to replace cartridges in both
types of units - in the RO/DI, about once per year; for the DI only, probably
after about 30-50 gal. That's where the bigger RO/DI ends up paying for
itself. If you go this route, be sure to remember to add back electrolytes and
necessary trace elements, as well as add something to raise the pH from about
5.0, with appropriate products (I like Electro-Right and pH Adjust)>
From what I've read, I think our tap water conditions are ideal for BG...
<again, check phosphate levels>
...and I don't think increasing water changes is going to help much.
<Sounds like you are already on top of water changes - keep up with what you are
doing, but I agree, more likely won't help. Be sure not to overfeed your tank,
and perhaps try giving the plants a "siesta period" for an hour or so without
light.>
I'm wondering if you have any advice.
<See above.>
While I'm fine with scrubbing stuff off of the physical decorations, that's not
really feasible with the plants b/c the Swordplants grow extensive root mats,
and to pull one up means uprooting everything and unless you trim the roots way
back after you get them up, you'll never get them under the gravel again, and
trimming the roots (I tried this on one plant) seems to cause a big dieback.
<Yes, it is one thing to scrub rocks and such, but you really can't do this with
plant leaves without damaging/killing them. If you find leaves that are
completely covered with the algae you describe, do remove them at the stem with
a scissors - the will eventually suck out the nutrients from the roots that the
healthy leaves need.>
The other thing I notice too though is that the black algae is starting to
disappear in "blocky" patterns on some leaves, while it is taking over others
(so no net gain), so I'm not sure if once a leaf gets coated it is a death
sentence or if it can be reversed if the leaf continues to grow.
<Not really - all you can do here is control the algae growth to begin with. I
think if you get your phosphate levels under control and change your source
water (the latter likely helping with the former substantially), you will see a
*big* improvement. I don't see any information about your lighting conditions -
if you have too much light, that can also cause algae growth. Also, direct
sunlight on the tank will cause algae. A few additional things to think
about...>
Here's another clue about our water, and a second question I haven't found a
good answer for. It seems to be loaded with calcium carbonates (or other
substances that cause a high pH). Our pH is about 7.5 out of the tap, and it is
extremely stubborn. I've tried "pH 7" products that will lower it very briefly
then it goes right back even with multiple treatments. Then I decided that
logically those products also contain buffers to raise it if it needs it, so
since it's not lowering it, then it must only be adding to whatever buffer is
already in the water that keeps it up as well. So then I started pH lowering
products, and same thing - they will lower it to about 7.2 for a day or two, but
it always creeps back up, and this is with multiple doses to the point where I'm
afraid of taking it to far (seems these products tend to contain sulfuric acid,
so I'm not sure what the sulfur content can to the fish if it gets too
high). For example, it may say add one 1 and 1/2 tbsp per 40 gallons, and I can
do that 3 times over several days and it won't drop past 7.2 and will still
rebound. The amazing thing is that while my first batch of angel fish died that
I got from Petco, the batch I got from my local pet store have been surviving
well, seemingly very happily for awhile now in these conditions. I know this pH
is too high for angelfish and when I discovered how bad this problem was I
decided I wouldn't get any more but the angels I have now are alive and well.
<I'm glad you are trying to provide ideal conditions for your fish, but in
reality, a difference between a pH of 7.5 and 7.0 is not that bad. It is much
more important to keep the pH stable, and by adding the various products you
reference above, it seems as though you've got a good deal of fluctuation going
on - that's bad. In all honesty, I'd say leave it alone. Fish are fairly
adaptable, but do not tolerate changes in pH levels and the like. Keep in mind,
also, that if you invest in either a RO/DI or DI unit, your water will come out
at around 5.0 pH, and you'll have to add a chemical adjuster to raise it.>
Anyway, I guess my second question is - is there anything you can do for water
that refuses to drop in pH like mine (besides buying a mini-treatment plant to
take out the alkalines?) Is it even worth putting in "pH drop" every week to
keep it around 7.2 or can the sulfur or whatever side ingredients in these acids
accumulate and cause harm themselves?
<Again, you aren't dealing with a huge change (i.e., between 7.5 and 7.2), and
I'd just leave well enough alone. Keep in stable and the fish will likely be
OK. Save the money you spend on the chemicals for a nice RO/DI unit - I believe
that is the best solution for both of your problems!>
Back to my first question - does the pH problem (and underlying factors) have
something to do with the blue-green algae problem? Again, the plants absolutely
thrived for awhile so my gut is that they got big to a point where a balance was
tipped and they started taking so much of something out of the water that let
the BG algae thrive and now they're losing.
<It's the "underlying factors" that are contributing...likely the phosphate in
the source water.>
Here's another site that is interesting and if it were correct it may suggest my
problem may root in the fact my nitrates aren't high enough for the levels of
phosphate in my aquarium: http://www.xs4all.nl/~buddendo/aquarium/redfield_eng.htm. Any
experience with this? Since the fish don't seem to be suffering and it's an
aesthetic problem I hesitate to tinker with the nitrogen levels.
<I haven't seen that site before. It seems to be well researched, but if it were
me, I'd start with just looking at the phosphate levels first. I was battling
all sorts of algae, including blue/green and black beard in my freshwater
planted tank, and once I switched to the RO/DI and added the PolyFilter, the
problem virtually resolved itself. Oh, and one more thing - you say your tank
is well-stocked with plants...that's very subjective, obviously. What I can
tell you is that if you have so many nutrients for the algae to thrive on, you
likely have room for additional plants - they will use those same nutrients,
grow, and aid in starving out the algae.>
Sorry for the long message but any help is appreciated - if you do choose to
answer feel free to post on a FAQ on your site. Thanks and love your site.
<I appreciate all the info. you provided me - helps me better diagnose a
problem...no worries on the length of the question, my friend! You will receive
a return e-mail, and we will be posting this answer on the daily FAQs as
well...>
Jason
Arlington, VA
<Jorie, Aurora, IL.>
Re: 2-part question - pH and BG algae: PART 2 10/03/06
Jorie, thanks so much, and I take it as good news that so many of my questions
could possibly be addressed with a single solution - a RO/DI unit. I have heard
of them vaguely so the advice is appreciated, I will look into it. As you say,
$200 is not bad (especially if you only have to replace a cartridge once per
year), and would easily pay for itself given that a "large" bottle of pH drop is
$7-$10, and I'd rather take out the problem than just keep adding more
chemicals.
<Agreed. Do look at www.airwaterice.com - for the price, I don't think you'll
find a better unit. And, their customer service is outstanding.>
I know that you're right that stable pH is better than fluctuating pH, even if
it's high.
<Within certain limits, of course...>
I'll be wary of the pH drop if I get a RO/DI unit, though I'd practically
celebrate to see the pH of my water go below 7 - not that I want it to, just
that I'm surprised our water is so pH resistant to anything I've tried.
<LOL!>
I do have one question - if the RO/DI unit will drop the pH around 5 and it's
necessary to add something to keep it up, then won't the unit continue to remove
whatever you add? In other words, will it be the reverse of my situation now
where I'll have to keep adding a buffer to keep the pH up instead of down? 5 is
pretty severe so that's definitely of more concern than 7.5.
<If I understand your question, I believe the answer is that the RO/DI unit is
attached to your faucet (i.e., source water), not the tank itself. So, the
water is only filtered once in this way - I use a 5 gal. jug to collect the
water after it has been filtered, then add 2 tsp. of ElectroRight, 1 tsp. of pH
Adjust - I'm left with 5 gal. of water with a pH of precisely 7.0.>
Anyway, the "lettucy plant" is Hygrophila difformis (maybe lettucy wasn't the
best adjective) - an invasive out in nature that doesn't need much light, so
it's no wonder it does well in tanks.
<Hmmm, not familiar with this - I will look into it, though, perhaps it can live
in my slightly brackish water tank where not much plant life survives...>
I didn't seek it out - just got one batch in the variety I bought starting out
figuring I'll see in time which do well and which don't in the light I have. It
took over very quickly though, and there are more attractive plants I have that
grow a bit more slowly so that's why I'm thinking of getting rid of it. It can
look good in its own right, but you need to keep trimming the tops off, planting
them, and discarding the lower parts.
<I had the same problem with Aponogetons - they grow very readily under regular
output lights, but require frequent trimming. Look into the various anubias
plants - they don't require much light at all and are slow growing. Very low
maintenance in this regard.>
Lighting - I'm not a plantophile...
<...love this word!>
...and just have the factory fluorescent hood, but one thing I liked about my
corner model tank is that it came with a dual-bulb hood, so I think that is why
some of the plants I have that I read
are doomed to fail are actually doing quite well.
<How many gallons did you say this tank is? I, too, have a 44 gal. "corner" tank
- really a pentagon in shape. I found that I needed to upgrade to a power
compact (PC) fixture, since the tank is so deep. Even so, I can only plant
low-mid light plants...>
Anyway, thanks again, and if I get an RO/DI unit I'll give you an update and let
you know if it works against the BG problem.
Jason
<Hope I've helped - Jorie>
FW Cyano in a Service Acct. 7/6/06
I have a tank that I maintain that has really bad Cyano. It's a lightly
planted 55g tank. It's got 260w of new (several months) PC lighting -
Coralife, a new Eheim canister, a Maxi-1200 for flow, a few rosy barbs, a
couple of angels and a few tetras. They replaced an older acrylic
tank with a new glass one. When I put the new tank in I replaced most of
their deco and all of the gravel. I did a 75% water change at that
time as well. Since then I have been doing 50% water changes every two with
RO/DI water every two weeks (for two months now), and manually (by
hand) exporting all the really thick Cyano. I know my water is clean - I
make it myself and use it in all my store tanks which stay pristine.
They (the tank owners) swear up and down that they've cut back on their
feeding, and they're using NLS pellets.
<NLS we'll take as Pablo Tepoot's New Life Spectrum... a fairly "clean"
food>
For the life of me I can't figure out where it's even getting the nutrients
to grow, but this Cyano is THICK, and I can't kick it. Nutrient control has
always worked for
me and I'm just baffled. Thanks for the input.
Scott
<Mmm... well... because you are in the trade, know what you're doing, and
this BGA has been so persistent and dominant, I would likely remove the fish
livestock and either "nuke" this system and all its gear with a bleach
solution, or even go the Erythromycin/antibiotic route. If it were you/my
home system, I would try massive water changes, adding some aggressive live
plant/s (likely floating...), some source of alkaline earth material (to
"feed" the vascular plant/s). Bob Fenner>
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