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Can't Find What I'm Looking For - Sick
Betta 5/27/2008
Hello.
I've spent several hours online trying to get a specific answer about one of my
new fish, and can't find what I'm looking for. Please help!
I've never had fish before. I bought a 28 gallon aquarium with everything
(including 3 goldfish and 2 Corys). I traded in the goldfish for some tropical
fish at the local petstore, which has always been an excellent
store. First, I did some reading and changed most of the water in the tank, put
in a new filter, cleaned most of the algae ( I was told to leave a bit because
it's healthy for fish), and added Cycle (good bacteria) and some water
conditioner. The tank has quite a few fake plants/rocks/caves which I also
carefully cleaned. It has a waterfall-type filter with a sort of bag that you
empty little pouches of carbon-stuff into. I bought a water heater and set up
the tank at 24 degrees Celsius. I read that many tropical fish don't like too
much water movement, and the guy at the pet store said I didn't actually need
the separate air pump with so few fish plus a waterfall-type filter. The air
pump was also noisy, and made the tank slightly vibrate, so I took it out. The
Corys seemed to be fine with everything. I bought 6 cardinal tetras and a Betta
(one of those frilly black/red/blue ones). All of them were healthy and were
already in the same tank at the store. I didn't know that fish should be left in
the bag for a while, and the bag floated in the new tank, and the new water
slowly added so the fish have a bit of time to get used to the new water - I
just dumped them right in (oops). They all seemed very healthy for about 2
weeks. I noticed the water heater didn't seem all that accurate, but have kept a
close eye on the separate tank thermometer I bought, and the temperature is
generally around 24 degrees. I fed the Betta fish pellets for Bettas, and the
other fish regular flake food, with the occasional freeze-dried shrimp for
variety. I have been conditioning and adding the bacterial stuff to the water
regularly, plus changing a bit of the water once in a while, but not a lot at a
time. I ended up buying 5 more cardinal tetras and adding them to the tank (also
dumped them in - still didn't know about doing it slowly), as the first ones got
along well with the other fish, and apparently they do best in larger groups.
They were the remaining cardinal tetras from the exact same tank at the pet
store where I bought the first batch. Shortly after I bought them, I noticed the
Corys being very lethargic and sitting at the bottom of the tank (I realize they
do this on occasion, but not all the time). The Betta, who was active and had
nice fanned fins before, has started spending all his time in one of the
"caves", is spitting out the pellets and only eating the flake food, and his
fins look dull, flat and "glued together". I have tested the pH, which is just
under 8.0, and the pet store staff tested the water for everything else. All
levels are completely fine. The fish guy at the store said their water is also a
little alkaline, and the fish do well at the store, so this shouldn't have
shocked my fish.
Four of the tetras have died. They looked fine, I just found them dead. The pet
store guy told me, as the tank was clean and all measurable water levels were
healthy, that my just putting them into the new tank without giving them time to
adjust might have shocked them and that could have killed them, but he's not
absolutely sure if that's what's wrong. I think he may be right, and the four
dead fish are likely four of the five newest fish I bought. However, I don't
understand how this could have affected the Corys and the Betta. I have been
adding a fair amount of the Cycle, and the Corys seem to be doing better. I
haven't found any more dead tetras, and the remaining ones are eating, although
they are quite timid, so it's difficult to really check them out. They look like
they're swimming fine. I keep the fluorescent light off most of the time, and
the tank gets a decent amount of natural light during the day. As it's been hot,
I've kept the curtains in that part of the room closed, and the temperature in
the tank hasn't varied by much more than a degree. What I don't understand is
that the Betta is not doing well. He doesn't seem to be getting better at all.
He has no visible symptoms other than the ones I described. Since I got home
from work today, I've noticed when he comes out of hiding to try and eat (which
he isn't doing very much of) and he accidentally touches the tank glass or a
rock or plant, he freaks out and sort of jumps away. He looked fabulously
healthy when I bought him. I have looked everywhere online, and seen pictures of
other lethargic-looking Bettas, but they always have some other visible
symptoms, so this isn't helping me. My Betta's fins aren't falling off or
getting shorter, his colour is the same as always, he has no growths, bloating,
spots, fluff or visible parasites. I keep reading that many fish have bacterial
infections, and this is a result of poor tank conditions, but both the pet store
tank and mine are well-maintained and have healthy levels of stuff in the water.
Should I be getting something for bacterial infections? What, exactly? I also
read that sometimes these medications can do more harm than good. I'm at a loss.
Do I just wait and see what happens and hope my fish recovers? Do I get an
antibiotic medication? It would be a shame if he died, but I am not sure if I
should medicate or take a wait-and-see approach. Do you know what might be wrong
with him? Any suggestions? Sorry about the length of this request, but I wanted
to forward as much information as possible.
Thanks for your time.
Evelyn
<Hello Evelyn. Given you have a variety of fishes that have died/show sickness
symptoms, and across a range of species at that, it's almost certain that water
chemistry and/or quality is at fault. It is very important to use your own test
kits and not rely on the pet store. At the very least, buy a pH test kit and a
nitrite test kit. Use them. While pH itself isn't of particular importance (most
community species are fine between pH 6 to 8) what *does* matter is stability.
Between water changes pH tends to go down. Ideally the drop should be minimal,
but under poor circumstances the pH drops much more quickly. If the pH varies
like this, you run the risk of sick fish. Use your pH test kit to test the water
out of the tap, after a water change, and then once or twice across the
following week, and then again before you do the weekly water change. This will
give you an idea of how stable pH is. Nitrite is a good indicator of how well
your filtration system is working. There should zero nitrite in the water.
Sometimes people (including retailers) mention "safe" levels that aren't zero.
They're wrong. Any nitrite (or ammonia) is bad. You need to use the nitrite test
kit a few times across the day, because levels will change depending on when you
last fed the fish. Temperature variations aren't all that important for
community fish, so don't worry about that aspect of things. In the wild water
temperature obviously goes up and down, and fish are able to tolerate a certain
amount of change. For community fish, provided the temperature is somewhere
between 22 and 26 C, it doesn't matter much precisely the number. Cheers,
Neale.>
Re: Can't Find What I'm
Looking For - Sick Betta 5/29/08
Thanks, Neale, for the quick reply. I already have a pH test kit
and will test the water over the next weeks like you suggested. I'll
also buy a nitrite test kit and check out those levels myself. I'm
glad you don't think I killed my fish by shock. :-) Thanks again.
I'll email you again if this works or not.
Evelyn
<Hello Evelyn. All sounds like a great plan. Let me know if I can
help further. Cheers, Neale.>
Re: Can't Find What I'm Looking For - Sick
Betta 6/5/08
Hi, Neale. Just wanted to let you know my Betta is now doing great.
<Well that's good news!>
He's almost back to his former self and is looking better every day. I only have
4 of the original 11 cardinal tetras left, but they are also very healthy now. I
did test the water levels several times throughout the day for a while, like you
suggested, but pH didn't fluctuate and nitrite was consistent at zero.
<Sounds as if you have things under control.>
I think what happened is I cleaned the tank TOO well (the pet store fish guy
says to clean fish tanks like a man, and not like a woman ;-) ) before I put in
the new fish. I mean, I SANITIZED the thing, and I don't think a capful or two
of Cycle was enough...
<You don't really need Cycle if you clean the aquarium in the correct way.
Whether that's a "man's way" rather than a "woman's way" isn't for me to say
(though the analogy is perhaps quite insightful). The main thing is that you
replace lots of water at each clean, but leave the filter media largely
untouched. Lots of people go crazy cleaning and replacing filter media. The
"art" to cleaning filters is to rinse off the silt (the brown stuff that makes
the water cloudy) in a bucket of aquarium water. Then put the media back into
the filter and switch it back on as soon as you can. You never let the media
become dry, and you never leave it inside a filter switched off for more than a
few minutes because the bacteria will suffocate. If you must leave the filter
switched off (e.g., because you're deep cleaning the tank) then put the media in
a shallow, open basin of some sort so lots of oxygen can get into the media.>
I think the fish were very healthy when I bought them, and it took a while for
them to really get sick. I didn't know until too late that it takes weeks for a
tank to be properly conditioned for fish. I also think the nitrite/ammonia
levels may have spiked due to not enough bacteria in the water? By the time I
took water to the store to be tested, the fish were already dying and I had
dumped half a bottle of Cycle in there, so no wonder everything looked fine.
<Hmm... I'm actually cynical about Cycle -- but we'll let that pass for now. I
think your analysis makes a lot of sense otherwise.>
At any rate, everything is going well, and I'm slowly going to start adding fish
again (carefully this time). I wanted to thank you again, and I think you guys
have a great and informative site. I'm amazed you help people out for free, but
I sure do appreciate it!
Evelyn
<Glad to have helped, and good luck, Neale.>
Re: Can't Find What I'm Looking For - Sick Betta
6/13/08
Hi yet again, Neale. This is NOT a high priority question, so if you have a ton
of requests, don't answer this one - just looking for some specific
recommendations. The original email I sent was about Corys, tetras and a Betta
all being very sick. Of course, it had to be a tank problem rather than a
specific disease as you said, due to no visible symptoms (other than fish
looking ill and dying) and a range of species being affected. Water levels are
still fine, the Betta looks very healthy, and I bought two Otos last week.
<Otocinclus are not my favourite fish. These are very difficult to maintain for
any length of time, and feed pretty much exclusively on green algae, which you
won't have unless your tank is really well illuminated (they don't eat diatoms
or hair algae). Most specimens die in aquaria from starvation, though before
that happens they often become "vampires" scraping at the bodies of other fish,
eating the mucous and perhaps the blood. Otocinclus are very sociable, need to
be in groups of 6+ or they end up pining away. Very much fish for highly expert
aquarists able to provide the soft, highly oxygenated water they need. For the
average aquarist, if you want a "small algae eater", opt for something like a
single dwarf Panaque like Panaque maccus.>
I've been carefully and regularly maintaining the tank, and this problem is
specific to the tetras, so I don't think it's tank condition. The 4 remaining
tetras have lost most or all of their RED colour (the blue stripe is fine).
<Not good. Likely doomed.>
It's 3AM (so please ignore any gibberish you read here) and I can't seem to
focus enough to read up on the scientific side of things, but is the red colour
from blood vessels, and a sign of sufficient
oxygenation and circulation? So---stress or poor oxygen supply? Maybe it's neon
tetra disease, as I started with a school of 11.
<Quite possible. I've long since given up with Neons, and never recommend people
keep them. In my humble opinion, they're a waste of money. Like Dwarf Gouramis.>
However, I think that's a lot of cardinals to die from the disease, and
especially over so long a period of time (these 4 are part of the original six I
bought about 6 weeks ago).
<Yes indeed, Cardinals (and a few other tetras) can be stricken by the disease.>
They are also by turns lethargic or swimming like lunatics, and one seems to be
gasping for air. As I read tonight, these fish can be difficult to keep,
especially for someone new like me, so I guess it could be any of a number of
causes, but I'm going to go with stress or oxygenation (unless you say
otherwise, of course. :-).) I'd like to get more tetras, as I just read that
reduces stress, but don't want to just have them get sick and die too.
<If you want hardy tetras, choose your species carefully. X-ray tetras (Pristella
maxillaris) for example is virtually indestructible, very peaceful and not too
big. There are other good species; a little reading around will reveal them. I
happen to be a great fan of Bleeding Hearts (Hyphessobrycon erythrostigma),
though that species is likely a little big for the small aquarium at about 5
cm/2" when mature.>
The temp is 24 - 25 degrees, so that should be OK.
<Very slightly too warm for Neons, which come from fairly cool water around the
22-24C mark.>
pH is high (close to 8.0), but the pet store has the same water and had these
tetras for several weeks before I bought them, so they should be OK?
<Most tetras prefer soft water, and if you have pH 8, you likely have hard
water. There are exceptions, like the X-ray Tetras mentioned above, which will
do well in soft, hard, or even slightly brackish water.>
I also don't want to mess with pH unless I have to.
<No aquarist should ever directly change the pH unless they have altered the
hardness first. My advice is simple on this -- if you don't know how to change
the hardness (or can't change the hardness) then leave the pH alone. Fish don't
really care about the pH itself provided it is stable, and messing about with
"pH potions" is one way to really make your fish unhappy!>
The tank has lots of "vegetation" for the fish to hide. The waterfall-type
filter is the right size for the tank, but do I need to pump air in there too?
<Not really.>
I was told "no", and was glad to hear it, as the pump that came with the tank is
very loud. If you feel the tank needs additional oxygen, will you please
recommend a system that works and is relatively quiet?
<Aeration doesn't actually do anything much. What oxygenates the aquarium is
circulation, i.e., moving water from the bottom of the tank up to the top where
it can absorb oxygen and discharge CO2. Provided the water is moving at all
levels of the aquarium, your work is done here. Any decent filter should
circulate the water.>
Also, any recommendations for another product besides Cycle, as you're cynical
about it?
<Time is the best healer! Cut back the food, do water changes every day or two,
and wait before adding any more fish. After about 3 weeks the aquarium should be
settled down all by itself.>
I thought it was useful, like probiotics for fish?
<Many of these products are untested, and the claims are pretty difficult to
verify anyway. The best aquarium maturation products contain live bacteria. But
how long they live in those bottles, and how readily they "infect" the filter
once added, is a bit up for grabs.>
Hmmm, I wonder if Consumer Reports ever did consumer research on Best Fish Tank
Products?
<Perhaps they should!>
Thanks!
Evelyn
<Cheers, Neale.>
Re: Can't Find What I'm Looking For - Sick Betta 06/14/08
Wow, thanks Neale, for the in-depth and quick response! No reply
necessary for this one, just wanted to thank you! I guess I'm in a learning
curve, and will just have to do research on fish before I go to the pet store,
instead of relying on the staff...
<Indeed, and why we recommend investing in an aquarium book. There are many, at
all price points, and your public library should have a selection too.>
and doing research after I already have fish (like the Otos -- I have a bright
tank that's also in a sunny area, and LOTS of algae, but too small for more Otos
-- I definitely don't want unhappy, starving fish...my mistake again)
<It isn't impossible to keep Otocinclus, but do be aware they are difficult to
feed. Algae pellets (sold for feeding Plecs) will help, but do encourage the
growth of green algae and basically limit your algae removal program to cleaning
the front glass.>
I believe people should own animals only if they are in the position to PROPERLY
care for them, so the onus is definitely on me to not cause harm to fish through
my own ignorance.
<Quite so.>
I was told freshwater tanks were easy and relatively maintenance-free, which has
proven not to be true, but it's too late 'cause now I'm hooked and am really
enjoying these fish and learning about them.
<Fishkeeping can be very easy. But it all depends on doing your research first
and starting off with a reasonably large aquarium (say, 75 litres/20 gallons).
Imagine you randomly picked three animals from a zoo and dumped them into a
single small cage. You could end up with an elephant, a beetle and a penguin.
Would you expect them all to get along? Nope. What people new to the hobby don't
always appreciate is that retailers offer a selection from literally hundreds of
species trade. Some are easy to keep, some difficult. Some have very specific
water chemistry requirements, others are adaptable. Some get along with other
fish, some do not. Some are small and inactive enough to do well in small tanks,
some need lots of space. I have 10 gallon tanks that require nothing more that
occasional water changes and daily feeding. The animals thrive (and breed) and
the plants grow vigorously. The secret of success is carefully choosing the
right species for such small tanks appropriate for my local water chemistry. In
this case, I have very hard water, so I keep small livebearers such as Limia and
Dermogenys halfbeaks, cherry shrimps, and various unusual snails like Nerites
and predatory whelks. The tanks are decorated with species of plant that don't
need much light, like Cryptocoryne spp. and Anubias. The result are beautiful,
easy to look after tanks that provide lots of entertainment value and very
little hassle.>
So, thanks very much. I will do ALL my own research in the future, and will only
email another question if I'm truly desperate. You know you guys make It WAY too
easy to get quick advice with minimal effort ;-).
<We try!>
FYI, I wasn't sure what to do last night and was concerned about oxygenation, so
plugged in the pump. This morning the tetras are bright red again...????? and
seem to be healthy and are eating. If aeration doesn't
make a lot of difference, maybe the filter (which the people I bought the tank
from said was from Wal-Mart -- yikes) is not working as it should and the
aeration made just enough difference?
<Aeration isn't necessarily the thing, as I mentioned last time, but circulation
is. If the filter is inadequate for the job at hand, the water may be stagnant
near the bottom of the tank. Adding an airstone circulates the water, but lots
of aquarists misunderstand why this is. It has NOTHING much to do with the
bubbles. Not much oxygen diffuses into the water from the bubbles. What actually
happens is that as the bubbles of air rise, water is pulled up with the air
bubbles, and so brought to the top of the tank. Water from the top of the tank
is drawn down to replace that water that was pulled up. In other words, you get
circulation. And it's that that helps. It sounds as if your filter isn't up to
the job. If ammonia and nitrite are zero, the filter may be adequately powerful
for water quality purposes, but not strong enough for circulation of the water.>
It's so weird -- they were completely colourless yesterday! I guess it's off to
the pet store for a
REALLY GOOD filtration system, and guess what? I'm going to RESEARCH it first!
:)
<Many options here. Plain vanilla air-powered systems such as sponges and box
filters are cheap and effective, though they are somewhat unsightly. Undergravel
filters work very well, but can't be used with plants that have roots (they're
fine with floating plants or plants that are attached to rocks/wood). Electric
filters come in two sorts. Internal canister filters tend to be easy to use and
often relatively low cost, but are poor value in terms of turnover per hour.
(Ideally, for a small fish community you want a filter that turns the water of
your tank over 4 times per hour, i.e., if you have a 10 gallon tank, choose a
filter with turnover 40 times per hour.) External filters are more complicated
and often more expensive, but are better value in terms of turnover, hence tend
to be preferred by expert fishkeepers. Regardless, the German brand Eheim is
generally considered the very best filter manufacturer in terms of reliability
and value in the long term. Remember, a filter needs to run 24/7, so reliability
is an issue. Air-powered things are usually very reliable, though the diaphragm
on the pump will need to be changed every couple of years. Electric filters are
usually very reliable, but if you read around the various tropical fish forums
you'll quickly learn that some brands have a less than stellar reputation than
others. Hope this helps, Neale.>
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