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FAQs on Centropyge Angelfishes Disease/Health 3

FAQs on Dwarf Angel Disease: Dwarf Angel Disease 1, Dwarf Angel Disease 2, Dwarf Angel Disease 3, Angels and Butterflyfishes & Crypt,
FAQs on Dwarf Angel Disease by Category: Diagnosis, Environmental, Nutritional, Social, Trauma, Pathogenic, Genetic, Treatments

Related Articles: Centropyge Angels, C. loricula/Flame Angel, Lemon/y Dwarf Angels, A Couple of Lemons; the True and False/Herald's (nee Woodheadi) Centropyges, Potter's Angels, Reef Safari! Keeping Multibarred Angelfish By Alexander Thomasser,

Related FAQs: Best FAQs on Centropyge, Centropyge Angels 1, Centropyge Angels 2Centropyge Angels 3, Centropyge Angels 4, Dwarf Angel Identification, Dwarf Angel Selection, Dwarf Angel Compatibility, Dwarf Angel Systems, Dwarf Angel Feeding, Dwarf Angel Reproduction,

Angelfishes for  Marine Aquariums
Diversity, Selection & Care

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by Robert (Bob) Fenner

Coral Beauty Angelfish      12/11/19
We recently had a coral beauty angelfish become sick and die. We removed the fish just as he died. Are you able to identify what the disease is from these photos? It appeared to be white fuzz and fin rot since the side fin deteriorated away.
<Does look like Lymphocystis, a virulent disease especially common in tanks where fish are already stressed due to poor water quality, unfortunately it has no cure, the only option is to improve the fish health through good nutrition and vitamin supplements, in addition to maintaining pristine water conditions in a stress-free tank.>
Thank you for any help!
<Most welcome. Wil.>

Coral beauty hole in the head      11/16/19
Hello Crew! I’ve had this Coral beauty in my DT (90 gal) for almost a month. On the 4th day I noticed few fine white dots on his fins, then on his head, which basically never totally disappeared (very fine, like fine salt),
<Just on the head? I'll assume this is what you mean/intend.>
barely visible without a magnifier and a flashlight, and of course my first thought was ICH, but my tangs were spot-free.
<Not Crypt>
I have to mention here that I am fighting black ich (had it on my tangs) with PraziPro in my DT.
<Simple freshwater baths (pH adjusted) will rid them of Paravortex. This is gone over on WWM. Search for it>
The CB never ate very well (noticed white stringy feces the second day I put him in the DT), sometimes he would grab food (frozen food) just to spit it out later. He was swimming normally, picking at the LR, not showing any anxiety, displaying normal colors, but he got really skinny.
<Mmm; I'd have treated en route (in isolation, quarantine, treatment tank) w/ Metronidazole along w/ the Prazi>
The other day I noticed a white spot (2-3 mm large)on his forehead, right in the middle, between the eyes and the dorsal fin (the picture I managed to take is pretty blurry).
<Nothing attached or linked>
Today the spot was a little larger and white, it looks like the skin went off and you can see the bone!
<Not good>
He hides most of the time, and surprisingly he came out for food, didn’t really eat, but he is hungry and starving. My questions to you are: is this treatable, and with what medication?
<Mentioned above. I'd also add Selcon or equivalent to offered foods and the water itself>
Any chances he could recover?
And do you believe this may be contagious?
<Could be...>
Thank you again for your help! Cristina
<Do send along the pic. Bob Fenner>

Help with a new Potter’s Angel      8/24/19
Hello WWM Crew,
<Hey Gil!>
Hope you all are well!
I am contacting you today with regard to a new Potter’s Angel. I purchased it from Live Aquaria Diver’s Den, and he will be going in a 90 gallon Hawaiian endemic SPS tank.
After doing some research on this site and elsewhere, I’m wondering if my normal quarantine procedures need to change for this fish.
<Let's see>
I typically only treat with Praziquantel, and observe the fish carefully for ich for another two weeks after completing the Prazi treatment. This is done in a 2’x1’x15” tank, with a seeded sponge filter from my sump, and the smallest piece of live rock I can safely remove from the DT. If I dose anything other than Praziquantel, I know these are both gone forever but the live rock makes too big of a difference in the fish’s health for me to ignore. There’s also a couple pvc elbows for hiding in.
I know this is not enough space for my new angel (2.75”) and Potter’s are prone to sudden stress related deaths. He appears healthy after 24 hours of observation, other than attacking his reflection most of the day. Do you think it would be wise to truncate the QT procedure and move him straight to display in this particular case?
<I do count this Centropyge as one of the species that is generally better to "expedite" through quarantine. UNLESS there is/are compelling reason/s otherwise (apparent damage, disease), the majority of times it is better to use a simple pH adjusted freshwater bath to reduce the possibility of external pathogens and place new Potter's directly to the display/main tank.>
<Some background re here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/dips_baths.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>
Re: Help with a new Potter’s Angel     8/25/19

Hi Bob,
Thanks for the quick response!
I heeded your advice and the Potter’s is now in my DT.
Unfortunately, now I have a second issue- my Kole tang is rather furious about his introduction. Seriously, I haven’t seen aggression like this since keeping Mbuna Cichlids years ago. I’ve added tons of fish since having the tang and there was never an issue- frustrating it targeted such a sensitive fish!
<Happens... do occur in same areas, are competitors for space, algae... >
I’ve already tried rearranging aquascape to no avail. Any other tips?
<Catch the Kole (two nets, maybe two people) and place it in a floating plastic colander (yeah, a pasta et al. strainer) for a day... with the lights out. Likely will allow the Potter's time to become established, take some of the vinegar out of the Ctenochaetus. BobF> 

API Fish Medication... Mainly Metro-, Prazi-       8/24/18
Hi Bob,
<Hey Branko>
I've been having issue obtaining Metronidazole and Praziquantel locally. I was thinking of trying out API General Cure, if manufacturer is to be trusted it contains nothing but Metro and Prazi and is very effective in treating parasitic worms on the fish.
<The Prazi/quantel is... might be cheaper if you're using very much to just buy from a pharma source. I think Hikari sells it in bulk if you have a distributor locally>
I've found a new supplier which im overall happy with except some of their fish come with some form of Monogeneans (if im not mistaken).
<VERY common>
Fresh water dip usually takes care of it, however its way too much stress for some fish and I'd like to avoid losing fish due to that stress.
After reading up on API general cure I've noticed they have wide variety of other medications in their offer, are they any good? If yes which are worth looking into?
<All their "older" offerings are efficacious. DO avoid the more modern "herbal" "fixes"... they're shams>
Other than that I've seen Everything Aquatics advertising similar medication blends, as well as 100% pure active ingredients. This is my second choice, simply because I believe it will be easier to clear API's products on customs. Please advise on what would you use if customs is not something to worry about.
<My take on all is posted on WWM. Do you have a copy of Ed Noga, Fish Disease, Diagnosis and Treatment? Either the 1st or 2d edition is highly recommended as a/the ONE source for reference>
Ps. I have discovered that Centropyge Angels can be easily kept in CU, when
introduced slowly, 0.02ppm per day, and with a chelated CU mix with 16/1 ratio of CU/citric acid (hope this helps your readers) :)
<Ah yes; I thank you>
Looking forward to your much valued advice.
Ps Happy Birthday! :)
<Ahh, again, appreciated. Bob Fenner>
Re: API Fish Medication; now Prazi avail., Centropyge dis. pic.       8/24/18

Thank you for swift reply.
Our local pharm company charges 350$ for 25 grams. While in the US 500$ 1kg. Just ridiculous.
<?! I'd contact Hikari: http://www.hikariusa.com/wp/solutions/healthaid/prazipro/
Their liquid prep. in one gallon is very useful... and already solubilized (i.e., in solution)>
Ps please refer to a pictures of Centropyge heraldi which are in attachment. What could cause that kind of damage? We did fw dip nothing fell off.
<.... can't tell much from a pic. Need sampling, microscopic examination...
Looks like a bacterially infected physically damaged area>
Fish has internal parasites it looks like it ate a whole marble
<... infection. Bob Fenner>


Goldflake angel white stringy poop      5/5/18
Hi Crew,
<Hello Keith,>
I've a situation whereby My adult goldflake's appetite started to decline till the stage it stopped eating completely couple of days before.
<Oh dear. Have you check environmental conditions first? Nine times out of ten, fish stop feeding because they're stressed, and that stress is usually environmental. For sure, diseases can be a problem, but there's no point medicating unless you're 100% sure the environment is right, because even if the fish is medicated, it won't get better if the environmental stress is still there. To recap: Goldfish need plenty of space (I'd suggest 120 litres for the first adult, and another 50-60 litres for each additional specimen). The tank should be filtered, with zero ammonia and nitrite.
Water chemistry isn't critical, but shouldn't be soft or acidic; 10-25 degrees dH, pH 7-8.5 are good.>
I was trying to diagnose the symptoms till I saw a strong of white poop. I concluded it's definitely an internal parasitic issues.
<On the basis of what? Stringy white faeces imply excessive mucous production, and while this can be a sign of Hexamita infection, or even worms, it's also a sign of constipation or poor diet, specifically, the
absence of fresh greens. Constipated fish will be 'off their food' in some cases, though admittedly not always, and since constipation is exceedingly common among pet Goldfish, it's a really good idea to 'tick' this off your checklist before medicating. Do read here:
Fresh green foods, plus Epsom salt, can help a great deal.>
Given that it isn't eating, hopefully for now, will there be any course of action which I can further consider? I've already performed medicating the QT with Metroplex, however I've read that it may not be effective if the fishes ain't eating the medicine.
<Seachem MetroPlex can be added to the water, and while arguably less effective dosed that way, fish still absorb the medicine via passive drinking, and yes, it can work. Do remember to remove carbon from the filter (if used) and follow the instructions to the letter.>
Fish is still rather responsive but show no interest in food.
<Indeed. Have you performed a decent water change, say, 25-50% water change? Assuming water chemistry stays the same, and water temperature changes are minimal, this sort of 'freshening up' and have a strong tonic effect on ailing fish. If they do perk up after such a water change, even for a short while, this can imply an environmental issue.>
Thank you
<Hope this helps, Neale.>
Re: Goldflake angel white stringy poop      5/5/18

Hi Neale
Thank you for the quick reply. The above fish i was mentioning is a marine angel Goldflake. Assuming it's Hexamita, will fresh water dip do any good?
Or just continue treating with metro?
Thank you
<Yikes! Misread that. Thought it was goldfish you were talking about. Any old how... freshwater dips aren't going to help with internal problems much, if at all. They're really about using osmotic shock to stress (small) external pathogens before the (larger) host animal is harmed. I'd instead be looking at medicating as per Hexamita, but also reviewing HLLE, a very common problem with Pomacanthids given their specialist diets in the wild.
In other words, white faeces is a good indicator of irritation of the digestive system, and while Hexamita is possible, worms might also be to blame, so think about those as well. So far as diet goes, it's the lack of greens that's probably the key, but whether the full range of algae types can be completely satisfied in marine systems is up for debate; that being the case, I'd be looking at the use of vitamins and perhaps an Iodine supplement to help turn things around. Let me direct you to some reading.
I've cc'ed Bob Fenner here; he's far more knowledgeable re: marines than me, and he'll pick up on anything I've overlooked. Cheers, Neale.>
Goldflake angel white stringy poop      5/5/18

Hi Crew,
<Keith, am starting out fresh vis a vis Neale's response here>
I've a situation whereby My adult goldflake's appetite started to decline till the stage it stopped eating completely couple of days before.
<Not good; and as Neale pointed out, most often an indication of something/s gone afoul re environment... Water quality, aggression from tankmates>
I was trying to diagnose the symptoms till I saw a strong of white poop. I concluded it's definitely an internal parasitic issues.
<Mmm; best to confirm by looking at a sample under a microscope...>
Given that it isn't eating, hopefully for now, will there be any course of action which I can further consider?
<Do you have a separate, treatment system set up, or that you can...? MUCH better to treat there than in the main/display system>
I've already performed medicating the QT with Metroplex, however I've read that it may not be effective if the fishes ain't eating the medicine.
<Correct... You want/need to get the active ingredient (Metronidazole) inside the fish. Fortunately marines (vs. freshwater) fishes do drink their environment; hence the anti-protozoal may be introduced via the water here.
Additionally, I'd co-treat for intestinal worm possibilities. Do you need help using the WWM search tool?>
Fish is still rather responsive but show no interest in food.
Thank you
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Re: Goldflake angel white stringy poop       5/5/18

Hi Neale
<Bob w/ you again Keith>
Thank you for the quick reply. The above fish i was mentioning is a marine angel Goldflake. Assuming it's Hexamita, will fresh water dip do any good?
Or just continue treating with metro?
Thank you
<No to freshwater dips/baths for internal issues, and cautionary yes to using Metronidazole. Search and READ re its use on WWM. NOT safe to keep exposing fishes to. Need to treat full-strength for the duration of treatment, then no more. Bob Fenner>
Re: Goldflake angel white stringy poop       5/6/18

Hi Bob
<Hey Keith>
Thank you for the speedy reply. Much appreciated! Ok will continue to treat with Metronidazole (Metroplex Seachem) for the stated duration of 3 weeks days with each treatment 48 hours apart (approx 10 dosages). However can only dose in water as fish isn't eating :(
<Yes; again, for clarity; Metroplex by SeaChem can be used as a water-applied treatment, formulation, or added to food (as with their Focus product)
https://seachem.com/metroplex.php >
As to co treating with internal worms, what will be the preference? I was thinking of co treating with PraziPro together. Will you recommend it as the fish itself isn't eating but still responsive.
<Prazi is a good choice>
Thank you
<IF you're moving this fish, treating it in isolation I'd add Epsom Salt to the regimen. Bob Fenner>
Re: Goldflake angel white stringy poop       5/6/18

Hi Bob
Thank you. Will treat with Metroplex/PraziPro/Epsom salt all together concurrently. Tank is 120 litres, can I trouble you to advise how much Epsom salt should be needed ?
<... please use WWM... Neale's article>
I'm afraid of overdosing, if any. Will the Epsom salt be necessary to dose once off (Meaning i will not need to dose additional Epsom salt for subsequent water change).
<Some; just what is removed percentage wise>
On another note, because the fish was caught in the DT with its symptoms, will this be spreadable to others.
<Ah, good; can't tell re contagiousness w/o knowing what this actually is>
Thank you once again
<W. B>

Lymph on Coral Beauty angelfish?     12/27/17
Crew! This fellow came in with a few other fish and he had some cotton on a dorsal ray and some minor damage on a pectoral fin. I did a FW/MB dip on everyone and put them all in QT. The other fish didn't develop any issues
and I moved everyone else to a holding tank. He's been eating and behaving just fine. The cotton went away after the dip and he's been healing. Now, 2 weeks later, the dorsal ray and pectoral fin look fine but this granule on
his caudal fin showed up. I'm thinking this is Lymphocystis and I'm wondering if there's any benefit to keeping him in QT after the 1 month mark (I have a Butterflyfish in my DT with Lymph). Also, do you recommend any immunosupportive treatments while in QT? Thank you!
<I do concur w/ your observation. To me, this looks almost certainly to be Lymphocystis. T'were it me/mine, I'd pinch off (with your finger and thumb, this bit, while enroute moving this fish to the main-display. And do what
you can to optimize nutrition and environment to help the fish fight off viral return. Bob Fenner>

Diagnosis 2nd opinion need Coral Beauty       4/18/14
Needing a true answer to what this might be (See Images Attached)
<I see these...>
Coral Beauty, Marine Ich broke out 5 days ago, bought at LFS, Coral had some small pepper like white spots. I started Hyposalinity on her. Then she got worse and broke out in what I think was is Lymphocystis or Fungus.
<The former... some aspect of viral involvement here>

- In QT
- In Hyposalinity 1.008
<These won't solve this situation>
- Water per test are great
- Daily water changes 25%
- 2 rounds of Erythromycin planning a total of 4 rounds to prevent infection
<Nor this>

- Air stone tank
- Vitamin C and Selcon
- Eating very well and active.
<These last two are helpful>

Is this Lymphocystis or a fungus and am I on the right antibiotic to prevent secondary infection? Do I keep her in hyposalinity? Should I change anything?
<Yes I would. I'd post haste return this fish to your main/display tank...
where circumstances are more suitable, stable... Continue with the vitamin, HUFA soaked foods, and likely employ cleaner organism/s... In time the Lymph... will solve, resolve itself. Do please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/virdiscures.htm
and the linked files above for background, input>
Thanks for your response
<Thank you for sharing. Bob Fenner>

Sick angelfish Centropyge flavicauda    2/8/14
Hi crew,
I'm in need of help! I've had my 300l tank for a year and a half.  In my tank is a red lawnmower blenny, a mandarin, the angelfish, a cleaner shrimp, two blue sea urchins and a few hermits and snails.  The angelfish was quite shy and retiring from the start,
<Very typical for the genus in the wild>
 which surprised me as a friend has one that patrols the rocks boldly. 
Mine found every nook and cranny to hide in.
<What they do>
  It looked healthy upon purchase and seemed fine.  However, after a few weeks I noticed the fins were getting a bit ragged.  There was no white edging, just raggedy fins.  It has now for the last twenty four hours been swimming at a strange angle, head tilted up toward the surface and has tried to leap a couple of times too.  The other fish show no signs of distress.  
What is wrong with him?  Any ideas?
<Mmm, my bet is on it having a tussle, perhaps eating some "things" like Bristleworms... I'd do a bit of random baited "fishing/trapping" here.
Read: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/polychaewmcompfaq2.htm
Thank you
<Cheers, Bob Fenner>

my angel fish keep dying please help me   12/5/12
... hey ... i just started  the saltwater world and i think i am about to go back to the freshwater world because of my tragedies.. for some reason my angel fish keep dying. Here's a rundown of my tank .. I have a 55 gallon long tank. plenty of cured live rock.. 1 sailfin tang,
<Mmm, really needs more room than this; this Zebrasoma gets very large given time; and can be/come quite aggressive toward fish tankmates>>

 1 black clown fish and 2 snails, 1 is a turbo snail, the other a zebra turbo snail. i have a heater that keeps the water around 74-78 degrees, i have 3 power heads, 2 - 275mph and 1 950 mph .. all positioned in different parts of the tank.
My tank has been running for about 2 months now.
<This is actually a very short period of time... the system is only just beginning to stabilize>

algae has been growing on the live rocks and spots around the tank. I have went through 3 angel fish, and they all had the same fate - they come into the tank and die after 3 days of being in there. I did not add all 3 at the same time, i only put one in and when that one died, i get another. i went through 1 coral beauty and 2 flame angels.
<And these Centropyge require more space as well really... A 55 of four foot length is just too narrow to give them "depth"
to feel comfortable. IF you're interested in keeping Pomacanthids in such a size/shape volume, I encourage you to consider the "dwarf dwarf" Centropyge species. Read here
re: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/dwfdwfangels.htm
I have been going to the fish store out in Latham, ny "Eddie's Aquarium" and they cure their fish and quarantine them (i believe) upon selling them.
The angel fish will usually do the same thing, swim in the tank - go into the castle and wont come out, to eat or anything, may poke its head out every now and then but does not want to come out.
i have a salt water test kit and i have been testing my water before i get them and during the time i will put it in my tank. even the fish store says i am doing well and they can't find out whats wrong. here are my readings always.
ph - 8.2
am - 0
NA - 10
NI - 00
Salinity - 1.024
i don't want to give up but these things are expensive. please help
<Read for now; and let your system age a few more months... Bob Fenner>
Re: my angel fish keep dying please help me   12/5/12

I did notice my sailfin tang being quite aggressive to the new angel fish i would place into the tank. do you think this is the reason why they were dying off quickly because of the stress of the new environment and being chased around time to time?
<Mmm, likely a contributing cause>
 I decided i am going to give in my sailfin tang today and get a dwarf angel .. so it will just be the dwarf angel and the clown fish and the two snails.. i can monitor the tank for now and maybe around or end of January, beginning of February i can add a wrasse? and a fire shrimp? is this okay or too quick for that time frame?
<Keep reading; and using a grammar checker! BobF>

Lemon Peel Angel Treatment 11/10/12
Hello WetWebMedia Team!
I have a question concerning my Lemon Peel Angel. It has been in quarantine for a few weeks now. I had noticed that around its eyes they were getting very dark and appeared to be pushing out from it's head.
<Mmm, not good>
Usually you could see the beautiful blue around its eye, but the black was appearing to be pushing its eye out. I also noticed that its mouth had turned white, rather than its yellow color. It almost appeared like its mouth had worn away or was deteriorating.
<This too>
It didn't appear to be any growth on its mouth. I didn't know if it had hurt itself from bumping into the glass, because it does bump the glass very often.
<Am wondering, why?>
My LF said it sounded like it may be a bacteria so they suggested I soak its food in Metronidazole.
<I wouldn't do this... better by far to seek out or just do what you can to "solve" probable water quality issues, perhaps nutritional deficiency>

They suggested its food be soaked in a "measure" or small scoop for 5 days.
I have noticed that the eyes are looking much better and its mouth is looking much better. Its mouth is actually turning yellow again. Do you feel the 5 days is good enough to treat this?
<Yes I do. Metronidazole is quite toxic in successive exposure>
I also was not sure where to go from here? How much longer should I keep it in quarantine?
<I would move this fish post haste to the main/display>
It looks great besides this issue. Once it is ready to transfer to the main tank, how long of a bath should I give it?
<A few minutes>
Should it just be a freshwater/ph/temp adjusted bath or should I do another type of bath?
<The former>
When I do the bath, if I was to see parasites in the water, should I feel safe to continue the transfer or should that signal I should put it back into quarantine?
<For flukes, back into quarantine, for treatment>
I'm getting a little confused on the key things to pay attention to when giving a good dip/bath. I wanting to make sure I am paying attention to the key signals along the way that tell me to stop and turn back. I appreciate your insight. You have helped so many times. We are learning so much.
Brent Wells
<Ah, good. Bob Fenner> 

Multicolor Angelfish Not Doing Well/Centropyge Health 10/15/10
I bought a Multicolor Angelfish
<Centropyge multicolor>
online last week and I've been quarantining him in a 10gallon tank. Up until yesterday he was doing fairly well, eating pellets/Mysis and wandering around the tank.
<Your QT is a little on the small side for this fish.>
Yesterday, he started hiding all day and stopped eating. This morning, he still won't eat and is breathing kind of heavily.
There isn't anything visibly wrong with him on the outside. i.e. no white spots or sores.
Do you think there's anything I can do? He's a cute little bugger. Do you think it's worth doing a freshwater dip just on the off chance that he has something growing on his gills?
<First thing that came into my mind was, did you drip acclimate this fish?
I'm thinking the fish may be stressed out from the rigors of shipping and will need some time to adjust, especially if it was not drip acclimated. As to a freshwater dip, unless you spot a disease problem, I would not do, will just further stress out the fish. If your QT is lit, I would douse the lights until his condition improves. I'd run some carbon or other waste removal media in the QT to improve water quality and keep observing.>
Thanks in advance
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>

Multicolor Angel and Ich 09/29/10
Hello All,
I've had a small multicolor angel (not quite two inches) in quarantine for 2 1/2 weeks. She is only picking at my rotation of food (Mysis shrimp, bloodworms, spectrum pellets, Cyclop-eeze, and a frozen herbivore preparation),
<Very typical>
but looking at the "kissing marks" on the decor and glass, I'm assuming substantial nutrition is coming from the diatoms/algae.
<And what's associated with them>
The good news here is that she is active in a normal dwarf angel way (darting in and out of hiding, curious- but cautious when I'm around the tank). Her eyes are clear, her belly is round and her feces are dark green and seen on a regular basis. She has one tank mate in quarantine, an orchid Dottyback destined for another tank.
The problem is that two days ago I saw her "scratch" twice and then go about her business.
Tonight I noticed three salt grain spots on various spots on her fins.
(The Dottyback has no sign of infection, yet.) After 12 years in the hobby, my gut is saying these are Ich spots, but for better or for worse I've never had to treat an angel for Ich. After looking through the FAQ, it sounds like there are many different opinions about how to proceed now.
I am particularly concerned that the angel is dependent to a high degree on foraging on the liverock and diatoms/algae and that chemical use would take away this food source.
The quarantine tank is 25 gallons, bare bottom, with two pieces of liverock for grazing, and some plastic hidey holes. I have two little hang on filters and a Prizm skimmer going. I do have a second potential quarantine tank (30 gallons) which has its own heater, but no filter or skimmer. I have about 15 gallons of pre-made salt water on stand by. FWIW, my display tank is a 46 gallon low light reef.
Considering the small size of this angel and dwarf angels sensitivity to chemicals, I would appreciate any and all advice.
My thanks in advance-Tricia
<I am inclined with small Angels (of size, not necessarily species), to especially be careful re the use of toxic medications... IF anything, I might use Chloroquine Phosphate (one dose) on/with this fish... but am more likely (if this were my own situation) to just do a cursory pH-adjusted freshwater bath (likely w/o any additional chemical presence) and place this fish in your main display. Yes, there is a risk (always) of spreading Cryptocaryon... but there is a very good chance that your and almost everyone's systems have resident crypt infestations (already). Bob Fenner>
Re: Multicolor Angel and Ich   10/28/10

Mr. Fenner (and crew),
I just wanted to give a short update. The multi-color angel is fairing well. The Ich did make it through the dip, so I decided to add a cleaner goby to help things out. The angel and goby found each other in about a week. Since then the Ich on the angel has decreased to the point that I can't see any more spots. The goby is also cleaning the wrasse on occasion, but I haven't seen any spots on the wrasse or the Firefish.
Everyone is eating well and no one is scratching (though the goby is growing quite fast!).
I am hopeful that my tank has reached "balance" with the Ich. I guess time will tell.
Thank you again for your advice-Tricia
<Thank you for this report Tricia. I do agree with the sentiment and hope expressed therein. BobF>

Bicolor Angelfish issue.. Feeding, QT too small.   3/17/10
<Hello Tyler>
I bought a Bicolor Angelfish from a reputable LFS three days ago.
I have placed (her, I think), in a 10 gallon quarantine tank.
<Too small>

This QT has been up for three weeks, with water from the main 120 gallon reef. They are not plumbed together. In the QT I have a small amount of sand, a few small pieces of live rock, and a frag of Trumpet Coral, Star Polyps, and a Tubeworm. These are there to test potential 'reef-safe-ness'.
<Good practice, but you will have problems here>
The problem is that this fish refuses to eat.
<Did it eat in the shop? Essential that you buy this fish already feeding, as this is a difficult fish. Have you read here http://www.wetwebmedia.com/c_bicolor.htm>
It is from all appearances in great shape- it swims constantly, all around, bothered a little by its reflection in the glass. Nevertheless, it just won't touch anything.
<It is not likely to in this setting>
I've tried 3 varieties of frozen food (2 Rods, one homemade gumbo), many more dry foods as well, I'm using garlic, and I hang small algae sheets in the corner of the tank.
<This fish needs live rock to pick on, and in which to hide. It will not feed if it does not feel secure, which is impossible in such a small setting>
I've read all the FAQ's on WWM I could find about this, but I'm bothered that I never hear how the suggestions end up working out.
<Have you read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/dwfangfdgfaqs.htm>
What am I doing wrong??
<The setting is too small. If you are going to try to tackle a difficult fish like this, AND keep good quarantine protocols, then you needed to have ready a much bigger QT system for it, with good live rock for it to graze. If you can't provide this then you will need to move this fish prematurely (after a week or so) to the main system, with all the risks that this action brings>
Isn't there something this fish can't resist?
<Not prepared or frozen, no>
I'd appreciate any help you could provide.
<No problem>
Tyler Smith

Flame Angel's Sudden Death/Centropyge Health 12/10/09
Hi everyone
<Hello Michelle>
I was hoping maybe one (or more) of you could help me out.
<Will try.>
I have a 75 gallon FOWLR setup going for three months now. I just recently added a Flame Angel and three days later he died. My levels seem to be good with zero of ammonia and nitrite, and 30 of nitrate along with around
8-8.1pH. The water has A LOT of circulation along with aeration and about 50lbs. of live rock. I noticed that this flame was unbelievably healthy at the store and then seemed to become sluggish after a day in my tank. He was breathing VERY heavy for the last two days before he died (what is the cause of this?). Do I have parasites that aren't causing any white spots?
I do have a UV running to at least help with the parasite potential. The only other thing I was thinking was that my salt level was about .012 when I added him. I was had the salt low to help fight off some Ich a few months back. I did acclimate him very slowly for about 2.5 hours upon arrival to my display tank. Could the rapid breathing be caused by shock from major salinity differences from the fish store tank to mine? Your feedback would be of great assistance. Along with telling me what I did wrong and/or what I could have done different, please answer my questions (along with possible reasons as to why this fish may have been acting in such a manner) also if you could.
<First off, your tank is too "young" to introduce a Flame Angel.
Secondly, they appreciate pristine water quality, and with a nitrate level of 30ppm in a young tank, something here is amiss.
A protein skimmer is a must in marine systems and you did not mention the use of one. Skimmers are a great boon in increasing water quality by removing excess nutrients thereby lowering nitrate levels. Environmental stress is likely what caused the death of your Flame Angel and the large change in salinity over a short period of time just added to the problem. Under stress, these angel species are highly susceptible to Brooklynella and Oodinium infections, and it is possible the later may have occurred. Did you notice any tan to blackish small dusty dots on the fish?>
Thanks a bunch,
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Re Flame Angel's Sudden Death/Centropyge Health 12/12/09

No, no black or white spots at all. If I had velvet wouldn't my other fish have it too?
<Not necessarily.><<RMF strongly disagrees. All fishes would very likely be infested>>
And you think it's a possibility that the heavy breathing was caused by salinity changes and/or nitrates, or do you think it's most likely a parasite?
<The lowered salinity was likely the onset of environmental stress.>
And wouldn't the UV help a little bit with it, if it indeed was?
I am using a canister filter with bio balls and ceramic rings along with a sand substrate. Should I change any of this to minimize nitrates or can I leave it all alone and just purchase a protein skimmer?
<If you have a good deal of live rock, I'd remove portions of the bio balls and ceramic rings. They can promote nitrates because of their efficiency at denitrification.>
And if so, which skimmer do you recommend for a 90gal that is affordable? I don't want to spend much more than $100.
<That's a tough one there especially since it has to be a hang-on type. If I were on a budget, I'd likely go with the CPR Cyclone BAK-PAK"¢ 2R+.
See here. http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=CPR-2R&Category_Code=Bakpak.
 You may want to pose the skimmer question on one or more of the bulletin boards, will see other folks opinions on skimmers in this price range. James (Salty Dog)>
Re Flame Angel's Sudden Death/Centropyge Health 12/12/09

Thanks James.
<You're welcome, Michelle.>
I have a little over 50lbs. of live rock in my 90, is that sufficient enough to take out some bio balls and rings?
<Yes, when you clean your filter every week, remove 25% of them. Also would help by adding another 20 pounds
of live rock. James (Salty Dog)> 
Re Flame Angel's Sudden Death/Centropyge Health 1/10/10

Hey guys,
I forwarded this previous email so you would have an idea of what my situation is/was.
<Is appreciated.>
At this point in time, since almost every remedy for parasites failed, I will have to let my tank "go fallow". I discovered through research and everyone's' help here at WWM.com, that I do in fact have a very aggressive strain of Velvet in my tank. All of my fish are on their way out and the ones that are living through it I will take to the local pet store. My question is: Which number of weeks do you think is necessary to eradicate this parasite from my tank, 6 or 8? I want to be absolutely SURE that the life cycle of this parasite is over and finished before adding anymore fish. Is 8 weeks even long enough or shall I wait longer? And is this "fallow" remedy enough to completely eradicate the parasite from my tank considering there are no hosts for it?
<Six to eight weeks is recommended. I've seen an article where this process could be sped up (2 weeks) by elevating the temperature to 95 degrees,
but I would play it safe and go 8 weeks.>
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Re Flame Angel's Sudden Death/Centropyge Health 1/10/10
Ok thanks James, but will this 8 week period eradicate the parasite from my system considering there are no hosts?
<As Mr. Fenner states in his article, "None of these is 100% effective in eradicating Amyloodinium from a system."
Read here. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/amylloodiniumart.htm James (Salty Dog)>
Re Flame Angel's Sudden Death/Centropyge Health 1/11/10

Hey, something I forgot to ask.......won't the 55lbs. worth of live rock in my tank act as a host for the Velvet? Or is it fish only? I plan on leaving my live rock and sand bed in there, will this be ok through the fallow period or will it decrease my chances of eradicating the parasite?
<No, the parasites will require the fish to survive through another complete cycle. Leaving your rock and sand bed will not only be fine, but likely be optimal.>
<Glad to help! -JustinN> 

Bicolor Angel with cloudy eyes... improper env., no reading   7/16/09
Hey WWM Crew!
I have a bi color angel fish. He was introduced to the tank about a week and a half ago. The tank is a 30 gallon,
<Too small for this species>
live rock system. It has a 55 gallon tetra carbon filter on it. In the tank are a bulldozer shrimp, goby, and valentini puffer.
<This volume is too small for a Toby as well>
(These fish are doing fine, if anything, the goby and shrimp are happier that the angel is not harassing them today.) The live rock has about 6 large mushrooms growing on them.
Today, the angel is in its favorite hiding spot. He did come out to eat, but he hasn't come out since. His caudal fin is a little tattered...
<Likely... could be the Goby or Toby>
like someone took a bite out of him. And his eyes are super cloudy. I wouldn't doubt that its hard to see. I was reading that the angel probably has a bacterial infection...
<Mmm, no... not first order... improper environment primarily>
I do not have a quarantine tank. What would you recommend as the course of treatment for the angel?
<Better world; more space, less agonistic roommates>
I was reading that Mardel has a good treatment for cloudy eyes, but also that a simple water change might work...
I am worried about the other fish and mushrooms should I treat with an antibiotic. I don't have a test kit either : (. I have never had any problems with my goby and puffer (except for some diet and dental issues, which have been corrected) so I have never needed to check all of the particulars of the tank. I do 25% water changes every month when I change the carbon.
What do you suggest??
Thanks for your continual help!
<Reading: http://wetwebmedia.com/c_bicolor.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>

Coral Beauty and Flame Angel Mystery Deaths: Possible Cyanide in Collection Need some more details 6/28/2009
<Hi Dan.>
Searched through the site and I have an odd one for you.
<I do love a puzzle.>
We have an established 125 gal tank Water tested normal.
<Please, "normal" does not tell me anything. Actual numbers are what we need.>
Tank has been up about 18 months. Stock is Cleaner shrimp, 3 Peppermint shrimp, Watchman goby, Purple tang, Clarkii clown, Royal Gramma, Strawberry Pseudochromis, 2 Chromis, Blue Damsel, Yellow tail Damsel, Clown wrasse, and a purple lobster.
Running 2 1500 Cascade filters 24/7, close to 40lbs of live rock.
<Are you running a protein skimmer?>
Tank is peaceful and all get along. My girlfriend (GF from here on) bought a Coral beauty and a Flame angel. Put them in the tank and they were eating about 3 hours later. (introduced properly by mixing water and temperature balancing.)
<No quarantine? At the very least, you can do a dip. Read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/dips_baths.htm >
They were both eating great and picking at rocks. 3 weeks later they both die on the same day. No signs of stress or damage on the bodies.
<How long did the fish store have these fish before you bought them?>
The Beauty had Ick when we first got it, but it seemed to clear up with the cleaner shrimp and Garlic extreme that was recommend by our LFS.
We went to the LFS and they agreed to replace both fish.
<Very generous fish store.>
We had them hold the new fish for 1 month and had them both freshwater dipped, twice. Both fish came home after the month looking great.
<Are you sure they were the same fish? Unless it is a fish that is known for dropping dead "mysteriously" like some of the large Angels, or some of the Butterfly fish, it is better to quarantine at home.>
We acclimatized them and into the tank they went. Once again they were eating well and we got special
angel frozen food. (The frozen cube type, we feed Mysis, brine, Cyclops, plankton. We also feed seaweed on a clip) Once again 3 weeks to the day, just like before, they died on the same day. 4 fish all lasted 3 weeks (21 days) then died. No signs of stress or damage.
<Do you know where the fish came from?>
We have had no other fish deaths (except for suicides from jumping out of the tank.) The only variable is the temperature range of the tank. It can drift 76-80 during the course of the day.
<A bit excessive, but not likely to be a cause here.>
My GF really wants those 2 fish but we really don't want to be killing more of them. We have talked to all
the locals and no one had any ideas other then the tank might need a grounding strap.
<You can check for stray voltage with a volt meter between the tank water and a common ground. This is not likely the cause either.>
Any ideas?
<I can come up with three possible causes. 1. The fish were collected using cyanide, in which case, they were doomed from the start. 2. There is something in the tank that is killing them. Angels are more sensitive to nitrate than most. 3. Your local fish store had some bad\unhealthy fish get shipped in.>
<Do respond back with your testing results and any other information you can provide.>
<My Pleasure.>

Clownfish/Hammer Coral and multicolor angel questions   12/30/08 Hello and Happy Holidays - Thank you for your website, knowledge, and assistance! I read, read, read and then can still not believe that I missed an important piece of information or still don't understand something. I guess that's why this is a good hobby for me. Never boring. Always something new. <Agreed> I have been in the hobby 5-6 years and recently revived my saltwater tank after a home remodel - tank ran with a heater, rock, and sand for almost a year. Now I have been re-stocking and re-learning for a few months. My 100 gal tank (black sand, lots of live rock, 30 gal sump, ASM skimmer, very small and young HOB CPR refugium) has good water parameters (SG 1.025, T 79, Amm/Nitrite/Nitrate all zero, PH 8.1-8.2). My two primary questions: 1. I have 2 black clowns (with orange faces) that are in the process of pairing up. Overall, they seem to have settled down, but I still see them nipping at each other now and again. They have elected to host in my Hammer Coral. The Hammer seems quite tolerant of this and looks actually very well. They have been living in this coral constantly for the past 3-4 weeks, took to the coral about a week after it was introduced to the tank. Days 1-3 very happy and in the hammer coral most of the time Day 4 fluffy cotton hanging from both fish Day 5 or 6 cotton resolved Days 6-8 very happy Day 9 Small slits in fins on both fish Day 12 or 13 slits healed entirely Days 13-15 very happy Approx Day 16 both clowns had more severe reactions to the coral. The smaller could not close his mouth. The larger developed a very swollen and puffy-looking face. Small clown moved away from the coral and resided in another area of the tank. Day 18 Smaller clown can close his mouth but has a very puffy face. He has a split lip with red around it. Extra vitamins given in his food. Day 23 or 24 lip heals but face still quite puffy and clown moves back into coral Days 25-27 very happy (in coral constantly, nip at each other occasionally, eating well) Day 28 Split caudal fin with cotton on the smaller clown, face more puffy (1/2 is paralyzed?), moves away from hammer again. Still eating well. Larger clown face still puffy (maybe a little less?), living in coral always, eating well. (Is this too much detail? Sorry if so). <Not too much... good to have complete picture> My thought has been "Hopefully this will sort itself out", <And it generally does... Percula/Ocellaris clowns do establish relations with Euphyllias in captivity... often course through the sort of process you relate so well here> since they are eating well and the smaller seems to be managing his illness to some degree on his own. The swollen faces have been for more than 10 days now. They look very much "allergic" and not infectious. I would like to continue to watch it and hope eventually that this will resolve on its own. Is there a time limit for how long I should allow this to go on? <Mmm, no, not really... Till the two species either "agree" or not to associate> Also - the day of the open mouth and swollen faces was the same day my peppermint shrimp was picking on that coral and pulling on its polyps. Would the hammer have been potentially more toxic that day? <Interesting to speculate...> (I have since removed the pep). 2. My multicolor angel (in quarantine day 11) developed 3 white spots (2 on the caudal fin, one on a pectoral fin). These remained for 36 hours and then vanished. Debating on what to do, I coincidentally broke a heater in the tank and had to remove him in order to clear the tank of glass. Therefore, I cleaned out the quarantine tank and have placed entirely new water in the tank. The angel is in a smaller 4 gal holding tank waiting for the water to fully heat and aerate. (I didn't have quite enough water ready for the whole tank). This angel is extremely skittish, <A sign of good health> and I question whether or not he would tolerate a FW dip as he attempts to jump out of the tank upon any slight stressor, although he really looks well otherwise. (During acclimation, he tried to jump out several times, even with a lid on - also tried to jump out when I had to net him to remove from the QT and clean the class out.) I am on the fence of "Oh no I need to do something" and "Let's see what happens" due to my lack of experience overall. <I would, do default to the latter... non-action in cases of doubt> Trying the minimal approach when possible. Do you have any tips for doing a FW dip in a skittish fish, or would you just skip it altogether? <As you hint at, to be in constant attendance, make sure the dip container is covered...> When I dipped my coral beauty angel a number of weeks ago (since then I killed her with copper despite my attempts at careful dosing, thus my aversion to any intervention unnecessary) I was amazed at the things I saw coming out of her and falling off of her (flukes and such), so I do think FW dips can be helpful. Sorry for the long descriptions. Thank you for your assistance. Lynn M <Thank you for writing so well; completely and clearly... There are some "extra" ideas, methods that might be added to my long-stated dip/bath protocol. For instance, the use of practical anesthetics (akin to "doggy downers" for canines that need to have their nails trimmed let's say)... "Hypno" by Jungle Labs is "over the counter", and there are other materials that might be profitably employed... Bob Fenner>

Flame Angel will not eat while being treated... coppered  3/1/08 Hi guys, I bought a flame angel fish and placed him in my 10 gallon quarantine tank. He was doing well and eating every type of frozen meaty foods that I fed him in addition to eating algae from a clip that I put in the tank daily. He was eating voraciously for over a week and now unfortunately he has come down with a case of Ich. I am treating the tank with Copper but now he has stopped eating. He hasn't eaten for 3 days and he seems to be hanging in with the copper treatment but I'm afraid he'll die from starvation while I am trying to cure the Ich. Do you have any advice for how I can get him to eat? I have tried putting some food in the tank but he just lets it float by and does not go after it like he did before. I'd hate to lose this fish! Any advice you could offer would be much appreciated! Thanks, Lynne <The copper... is mal-affecting this fish... causes it to go off-feed... I would NOT pre-emptorily copper Centropyge, Angels period... See WWM re Copper use, poisoning... I would summarily dip/bath and move this Flame to the main/display tank. Bob Fenner>

Please help. Angelfish gill spine skin is peeling off.   2/24/08 Hello Crews, Recently I'm getting very bother with my 6" Goldflake angelfish, as its gill spine skin is peeling off slowly showing off the white bone. <Yikes!> At first I thought its fine as it had just injured itself because it appear only a small dot that's peeling off but after 2 week, it has propagated to almost the whole gill spine. I have deal with fungus, parasite, bacteria but never have I encounter this type of situation. I had been researching online and reading all your disease FAQs or articles carefully but come to no conclusion or maybe I did not try hard enough. The closest problem I can relate to this situation is body rotting/eroding. Does any of you guys experience any similar problems? And what's the remedy or solution to it? <Possibly... need more info...> I wish I could provide a picture but, sadly, I don't have a digicam with me currently. I have the fish for about 3 months and itself is eating well and fat. In fact the Goldflake is the largest fish and a bully. All other fishes are scared of him. I'm running a 250gallon setup with about ~200kg of good quality LRs. Water parameters are in check except the fact that the nitrate is >50ppm <Way too high... a problem/influence here> on the high side which I know is a problem and had just set up a sulphur denitrator and waiting for it to mature. <I'd be checking the discharge here... could also be problematical> The other angels including 2 smaller but fat Regal Angels and other reef-safe fishes <Pygoplites are... not really "reef safe"...> are doing "normal" too. Please advice, <... advise> I will be looking forward to your professional reply. Lastly, I would take this opportunity to thank all you guys for all the wonderful and resourceful information provided all these while. Thank you guys! I really do appreciate the efforts spent on these. warmest regards, Lawrence, the Worried Goldflake Owner <Well... I've been party to how Goldflakes are collected... posted on WWM... Very stressful... I suspect yours has an injury that has become infected... I would try to reverse this by way of improving the environment (need to greatly reduce the nitrates here) and bolstering nutrition (you don't mention) by using Spectrum pellets... perhaps their Thera product (w/ garlic)... This is all the actual treatment I advise. Bob Fenner>

Re: Please help. Angelfish gill spine skin is peeling off. Now NO3 issue/resolution  2/24/08 Thanks for the speedy reply. Sorry that I didn't include the nutrition. I do feed them mostly spectrum pellets, Thera A together with some DIY frozen food from the LFS as snacks. I guess I will continue with more water change to lower the nitrate. <Mmm, I would REALLY look into other means here... will save you much time, money, water on the floor... http://wetwebmedia.com/nitratesmar.htm and the linked files above.> Once again thank you for your attention. warmest regards, Lawrence <And to you, BobF>

Parasite Identification... Flame angel... perhaps env.  12/10/07 We are very new to marine aquariums, we started up our first tank 3 months ago and have found lots of very useful information on your site! First off our water perimeters: <parameters> Ammonia-0, Nitrite-0, Nitrate-around 20, <Borderline high> KH-9, SG-1.025 We haven't had any problems so far until today when we noticed our flame dwarf angelfish has a visible raised white spot near her tail fin. <I see this> She has been in the tank for two weeks now and is eating well, behaving normally (as far as we know), she is not itching at all and is very active all day swimming around the tank, breathing seems normal. We have attached a photo, maybe that will help, the slight white patch you see above the anal fin is just a reflection of light, the only patch on the fish is the big one at the top of the base of the tail fin. We do not have a quarantine tank, as we live in a very small apartment in Amsterdam and don't have any space but we recently got a 15 gallon tank that we were planning to turn into a refugium today but maybe we could turn that into a hospital tank if necessary?? Do you think we need to treat our fish immediately? <Mmm, I would not. I would go ahead and add this tank as a/the refugium though> And what with? Freshwater dip? We have invertebrates in the tank (shrimp, crabs, feather dusters, cocoa worms) and don't want to harm them by using any copper based medication in the main tank. We have searched on the web for identification and cant find clear information or a definite identification. What do you recommend we do? Thanks for any help you can give us, much appreciated!!! Jess P.S. Your website is amazing, thank you guys for getting us this far!! <This mark does not appear to be pathogenic-derived... Perhaps is resultant from a physical injury some weeks prior... very common. If it were me, mine, I would strive to improve the environment (e.g. eliminate the NO3) via the refugium... mud/sand, macroalgae culture, DSB there. This spot will clear in time with improvement of the system. Bob Fenner>

Sick angel... C. argi  10/16/07 HI, I have a 55 gallon tank with two O. clowns, one yellow goby, one royal Gramma, and a cherub angel. About a week ago, the angel stopped eating, and his fins became ragged and frayed looking. <Mmm, maybe the Gramma...> I put him in quarantine, where I noticed one of his eyes was bulging. I have been searching and asking everywhere for help, and a few sources said he has fin and tail rot and to treat him with Maracyn. <Mmm, no> However, I do not think that is what he has. His eye bulged for only one day, but is now back to normal. I am almost certain he is blind, He swims in circles all day long occasionally bumping into things, and he will not eat at all. I have tried holding food right up to him but I get no response. He has not eaten in almost 7 days, and I am really worried about him. Should I use the Maracyn? I don't think it will help, but I just don't know Charlene <Does the system afford sufficient dark areas for this little Centropyge to get out of the light? What foods, supplements have you been offering? If this fish is still feeding, I would try Selcon, and Spectrum pelleted food of sufficiently small diameter. Bob Fenner>
Re: sick angel, blind C. argi  10/16/07
Hi, Thank you for responding to me! I submitted the question about my sick Cherub, who I think is blind. The main system is set up with about 30 pounds of live rock, with some pieces of base rock arranged so there is many crooks, crannies, and caves. The angel really loved swimming through them, and the tank is taller rather then wider. I have been feeding him a variety of Mysis shrimp, pygmy angel formula from ocean nutrition, frozen emerald entree, and ocean nutrition green marine algae, which I would hang on the wall. Now that he is in quarantine, he is not eating at all, at least that I have seen. It has been 13 days now that I have last seen him eat. He swims from one side of the tank to the other almost without stop until the lights go out and then he goes over to one corner and turns almost completely white in color. I have added nothing to the hospital tank but vitamins (vita chem) and a little bit of Entice to his food (which has no effect) I have also been doing bi-weekly, small water changes to keep the water quality clean. Ph- 8.4, nitrates-o nitrites-o temp 78 SG 1.023 Is there anything else I can do for my little fish? <Mmm, perhaps a deficiency syndrome still...> Thank you, Charlene (do fish ever regain lost eyesight?) <Yes. Do keep trying the supplementation to foods. Bob Fenner>

Bubbles and Lips, Skimmers and Fish Injury... Rubbing face due to reflection 5/8/07 Good Morning everyone! <Good morning to you.> I have two questions that probably could be answered on the chat forums -- but I can't seem to register right now.  I hope that gets fixed soon.  <Me too.>    I was fiddling with my CPR Bak Pak protein skimmer this weekend.  It hangs directly off the back of my display tank and the little pump that came with it seems to be failing.  The original pump was a Rio 600 RVT which seemed to do an OK job, but I was never happy with the open face of it. <Standard pump that comes with it, but does not have the greatest reputation for reliability.>  Nothing ever got sucked in but I've always been concerned, so I got a MaxiJet 1200 as a replacement.  This pump solves the open face problem, but the air intake tubing just being jammed in the filter screen seems a bit cheap to me.   So anyway, I was experimenting with using an air pump to force air into the intake of the pump rather than allowing venturi action and I got good results by regulating how much air was sent in ... and it was my intention to pump the rest of the air into a regular air stone in the main tank ... until I realized that I rarely if ever see air bubbles, air stones etc. in marine tanks.  So what I'm asking is if there are technical reasons why people don't put air bubbles directly into the display tank?  <A couple of reasons, one is that they get clogged very quickly especially with all the life in a marine system.  Secondly the popping bubbles make quite a mess with salt spray.  The first effects you more here, you will need to change your airstone frequently here.>   Second question is about a new acquisition, a Coral Beauty that is alone in a quarantine tank.   He eats very well and is very VERY active, spending his entire day swimming back and forth right in front of the glass-- maybe even against the glass.  He refuses to use either of the PVC caves I've provided (one white PVC the other black ABS) and prefers to sleep wedged into the suction cups from where the heater used to be (heater was moved to prevent burned CB problems).    But his upper lip is a like a thick white stripe.   It doesn't look like any sort of growth or covering like a fungus ... as much as it looks perhaps a tiny bit swollen and perhaps rubbed.  From all that swimming in front of the glass, maybe?  Does this suggest any action other than just further observation?  <Sounds like a physical trauma, maybe a shipping injury or even a burn from the heater.  Either way just keep up the water quality to prevent infection and observe.  I'm guessing with a little time this will heal.> Thanks again!!!! <Welcome> <Chris>

Coral Beauty Dx HLLE Rx multiple approaches   1/6/07 Hello Everyone, <Hi Carol, Mich with you today.> I just came across your website tonight and thought you might be able to help.  I have had my Coral Beauty Angel for about 6 months now.  Right after I got it, the new Flame Angel got pop-eye and while treating for pop-eye the Blue Tang got Ich.   <Are you familiar with quarantine procedures?  If not please read here:   http://www.wetwebmedia.com/QuarMarFishes.htm  > Over the course of the next few weeks we lost several fish. <Sorry for your loses.> I got the tank, treatments and fish under control and have looking good water-wise for about 3 months.  The only problem left now is with my Coral Beauty.  At the end of the Ich, when the other fish either died or got better, it developed white divots around its eyes and down either side of its body.  His appetite and behavior has not changed.  It seems perfectly healthy, except for these divots.  I have asked 3 saltwater fish stores in my area and no body has heard of anything likes this.  Can you tell me what it might be and what I can do to get my fish beautiful again?   <Does look like HLLE Head and Lateral Line Erosion.  Is common in tangs and angels.  HLLE is linked with poor water quality, nutritional deficiencies, and the protozoan Octamita (Hexamita necatrix.  "Stray voltage" has also been anecdotally associated with HLLE.  To try to improve the health of your beauty, you will want to make sure you are keeping on top of you water changes, make sure your tank is grounded, to eliminate any stray voltage, and try supplementing your feedings with a vitamin supplement  (vitamin C and vitamin D especially) such as Selcon.   Steamed broccoli has also been used to successfully treat HLLE.  You can also read more here:   http://www.wetwebmedia.com/hllefaqs.htm and here http://www.wetwebmedia.com/hllefaqs2.htm and here http://www.wetwebmedia.com/hllefaqs3.htm > My tank is a 75 gallon fish only that has been set up for 3 years. Thank you for all your help and time, <Hope this gives you a place to start.  Good luck!  -Mich> Carol

The mystery of the disappearing Colini Angel   11/19/06 Hi crew, I have really enjoyed reading through your website- which has provided a huge host of information for us relative newcomers to the hobby. So a big thank you for all you do. <Welcome> I have a 6-month old reef system: 450litres (120galUS) 70kg (154lbs) live rock with a reasonable amount of growth of stuff on them. 3 x 150Watt MH 14000K bulbs 2 x actinic blue tubes V2Skim 1200 Protein skimmer Large canister filter with ceramic discs Heater (calcium reactor on its way) Parameters: SG 1.023 Temp 25degC Ammonia/nitrites nil Nitrates 5ppm Ph 8.0-8.1 Calcium 375ppm The tank contains: 2 x Percula Clowns and a poorly but alive BT Anemone (rescued from LFS tank- probably a mistake) 1 x Copper Band Butterfly fish that eats anything and is really a character 1 x Powder Brown Tang A few Emerald Crabs 7-8 Scarlet Hermits 5 x Cleaner Shrimps Turbo Snails Various softies and a few LPS and my trial SPS 12cm Maxima Clam (which is very cool) Derasa Clam 2 x Serpent Stars <Mmm... the chief suspects here> On Monday I saw a 3 1/2" Colini Angel at the LFS and the owner was a little concerned it wasn't eating. <Is a large specimen... too big for collection if I had been in the water> I went home, read up what I could about this rare and difficult fish, then went back to the LFS, took pity on it and took it home. To cut a long story short, I stupidly put it straight into my main tank in the hope it would eat off the LR, which it appeared to do, taking up residence in a small rock cave <Another clue> near the substrate. It was very shy and didn't come out to feed but I thought just give it time and it might become bolder. Anyway, it didn't really explore much. The Copperband was a bit nosey, but didn't hassle it. The Clowns and Tang left it alone completely. I fed it a little with target feeding of a mixture of Mysis, enriched brine shrimp, fresh Nori and angel mix frozen, each morning and evening. I saw it eat some of the food. Unfortunately, the cave then filled up with hermit crabs and the emeralds looking for an easy feed! <Likely so> And now it has completely disappeared. I have dismantled as much of the LR as I can without causing too much damage and stressing the other fish, but it is absolutely nowhere to be seen. I've looked around the tank in case it has jumped. <Good> I've used a torch/flashlight to explore the caves and other hiding places, and it has just gone. Weird and scary. I've never had a disappearing fish before. So, the questions... 1. Do you think it might just be hiding very, very well? <Not likely, but a small possibility> 2. If so, do I need to try to find it, to coax it out to feed? <Mmm, no, I would not... if it's still in there, it will come out when/if it wants to> 3. Could I have a hitchhiker, such as a mantis (if so, it would be the first fish take- but we've had some turbo snails taken- probably by the crabs)? <Yes... though I suspect the Brittlestar/s> 4. If it has died, how essential is it to remove the body from the tank, or will the clean up crew, well, clear it up? <This latter... it's very likely already gone... you might discern a slight "blip" in your measures of nitrogenous metabolites... might not...> Dismantling the LR will be a real drag, as the corals are all Milliputted in. <Like this term> Thanks so much for all you do for us hobbyists! Best wishes, Steve Spicer Milton Keynes, UK <Mmm, please do read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/brittlestarcompfaqs.htm This Centropyge might have perished from "stress" alone... and the consequences would be about the same as you relate... the opportunistic piscivorous invertebrates would consume it, the decomposing microbes in your system do the rest... readily/quickly... Not to worry re chemical, physical consequences in a system of this volume, gear-make-up, maintenance. Bob Fenner>

C. eiblii on the fritz  - 11/11/06 Hi WWM crew Sorry for all these questions, but this morning when I woke up and turned on the fish light my Centropyge eibli was bloated by his pelvic and pectoral fins.  I fed them their normal three times today and he still eats, but he has a weird swim.  Should I do anything special for him or just see how it goes because he is still eating?   Thank you so much! <... please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/dwfangdisfaqs.htm and the linked files above... Perhaps a vitamin/supplement addition to the food... maybe the use of an antibiotic. Need to discern a/the root cause/s here. And address them. Bob Fenner>
Re: C. eiblii on the fritz  - 11/13/06
Thank you for your response.  He died this morning he was in my 30 gallon tank, but was going to be upgraded to a 50 gallon.  I can not find the body is it okay to leave it in the 30 gallon tank or should I move all the live rock to look for it?   Thanks <A body this size, in this volume water... I would dismantle the rock, remove it. Especially if there is other livestock. Bob Fenner>

Centropyge eibli - 10/18/06 Hi Wet Web Media Crew < Good day to you sir. > I have a question about my Centropyge eibli he has been in quarantine one month and about 3-4 days ago I moved him into the main tank.  He is about 1.5".  He is eating good.  I feed my tank Mysis shrimp, plankton, a carnivore mix, emerald entree( a mix of algae foods), squid, brine shrimp as in occasionally treat, flake food, an algae flake food, and a saltwater mix.  My Centropyge eibli  is not scratching, not lethargic, or do anything that would make you believe his is sick.  He just has these like blackish markings on him that I noticed 2 days ago.  They do not appear to be any worse.  There is no aggression towards the eibli in the tank.  These markings are black, I can not tell if they are on the inside of the body or his scales, but you can see them, they are pretty small and there is one on each side of his bodies in different places one by the upper dorsal fin and one around his torso area.  They almost look like scraps, but I am not sure.  I have read all the FAQs on disease and selection about Centropyge.  I just want to make sure this is not abnormal like they are just markings and no disease. Thanks for your quick response. < From what you describe I would not be too concerned. You may be observing a stress response from the move to the new tank, or healing wounds possibly received while trying to find a nice hiding spot in the rocks. Just observe for change and be prepared to pull it out if stops feeding, looks worse, shows signs of disease etc etc... > P.S. I could not get a picture of him because every time I would get close enough to take a pick he would come out of the rocks and dart back in because he saw me. < A good sign! Environmental awareness is a good indicator of health. Best of luck to you! - Emerson >
Centropyge eibli - 10/19/2006
Hi Wet Web Media Crew   <Hi MacL here with you today,> I have a question about my Centropyge eibli he has been in quarantine one month and about 3-4 days ago i moved him into the main tank.  He is about 1.5".  He is eating good.  I feed my tank Mysis shrimp, plankton, a carnivore mix, emerald entree( a mix of algae foods), squid, brine shrimp as in occasionally treat, flake food, an algae flake food, and a saltwater mix.  My Centropyge eibli is not scratching, not lethargic, or do anything that would make you believe his is sick.  He just has these like blackish markings on him that I noticed 2 days ago. These markings are black, I can not tell if they are on the inside of the body or his scales, but you can see them, they are pretty small and there is one on each side of his bodies in different places one by the upper dorsal fin and one around his torso area.  They almost look like scrapes, but I am not sure.  I have read all the FAQs on disease and selection about Centropyge.  I just want to make sure  this is not abnormal like they are just markings and no disease. Thanks for your quick response. P.S. I could not get a picture of him because every time I would get close enough to take a pick he would come out of the rocks and dart back in because he saw me. <It sounds like his behavior is normal. It could be where he has scratched himself as he's adjusting to the new tank. Bumping into things when he makes dashes or it could be an internal parasite as well. I wouldn't go into high worry mode until he stops eating or has more problems but I would cautiously watch him as well.  I really like eibli angels for their personalities after they settle. But I have seen some of the Centropyge have problems with parasites that manifest in this way. You feed a good mix and blend of food so that should help and with your tank stable that will help as well. I might consider adding garlic or some type of garlic food as a preventative, I've seen it work.  Should they become larger or more prominent some other type of action might be needed.>

- Coral Beauty Eye Cataracts? 7/27/06 - Good Morning Gentlemen. <Good morning.> My husband purchased (for me) a previously owned 75g reef tank around May 7th, 2006 and one of it's occupants is a Coral Beauty Angel.  The previous owners had this tank for 3 or 4 years so I'm sure on the age of the Coral Beauty but I noticed that she had small white marks (for lack of a better description) on the lower part of her eye or eyelids when we got her.  She seems very healthy.  She eats well, is very active and interacts well with the other fish. However, I've noticed that these "marks" are slowly getting larger.  Could they be cataracts? <They could be, but it's difficult to be certain. If the white areas seem to be growing, do keep a lookout to make sure that it's not just cloudy - cloudy eyes are typically a reaction to water quality issues. You may want to run a test or two and prepare a water change, just in case.> Any assistance would be appreciated. Louise <Cheers, J -- >

Angelfish and white spot, spare the formalin   7/7/06 I purchased a Coral Beauty Angelfish 2 weeks ago.  He is in QT.  Yesterday, I saw what looked like a white pimple on the front of his pectoral fin.  This morning the white spot is gone but his fin is frayed.  I thought he might have Ich but I am not sure since it was one spot and was gone today.  He is eating normally. Should I treat with Formalin or observe longer? <The latter. Is not likely parasitic/pathogenic... the formalin is far likely a source of trouble than help>   If I treat with Formalin, do I just do a dip or do I also treat the QT?  Or is there something else I need to do?   I have looked through FAQ's but still was not sure what I should do. Thanks much for your help, Jana Gibbs <I would not use the formalin here. Too toxic, too stressful to be catching, manipulating this Centropyge. Bob Fenner>

Coral Beauty HLLE?    7/1/06 Hi, question for you. <Hello John> I currently have a mid size coral beauty in my quarantine system.  I purchase him 16 days ago from a LFS.  While in the QT he has developed a small patch (approx the size of a match head) on his L side near his lateral line.  The area appears to be pale in nature and irregularly circular.  At first I thought he may have just bumped against something in the tank but now watching it over the past 15 days.  It appears to have grown ever so slightly.  Also yesterday I noticed a very tiny pale patch on the R side of his head.  Is this the beginning of HLLE? <Possibly.> I feed sparsely (given that he is in a QT) brine shrimp and Omega sea veggie flakes once a day each.   <A poor diet such as this can certainly aid in further development of HLLE, if that is indeed what it is.> The QT is a 15 gal long w/AquaClear 200 filter and carbon pouch.  Airstone w/pump, heater, small powerhead and PVC piping.   1 gal water is changed daily.  If this is HLLE should I attempt to treat it before placing him in my main aquarium or place move him in after he finishes out his QT time figuring the better diet and water quality available in my larger system will fix him. <You've just answered your own question here.  Better vitamin (Selcon, Vita-Chem) enriched diet and excellent water quality are the main factors in reversing HLLE.  There is no medication, in my opinion, that will effectively reverse this.  Do read FAQ's on this also. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/hllefaqs.htm> My main system is a 65 gal w/20gal sump, live rock.  Thanks for your comments,      <You're welcome.  James (Salty Dog)> John

Eye problem with my Lemonpeel angel fish   6/9/06 G'day crew, Chris from Australia here with a question for you. I visit and download as much info from your site as I can, as I find your information and help that is provided to be invaluable. My question for you is an eye related problem. I have a lemon peel angel fish in a 90 litre tank, <... too small...> and my water parameters are as follows; Calcium 350, Alk normal to high, ammonia 0 nitrite 0 nitrate 0, phosphate 0.2-0.5 pH 8.0 Specific gravity 1.025 I have had problems with cloudy eye, which I treated with Epsom salts which worked well. A brown algae build up in my substrate got stirred up and the above problem come back. <Very hard to keep small volumes stable...> I do a 10% water change every week to keep up my water quality, run an Aqua C Remora Pro skimmer 24/7 and leave the lights off to slow algae, which has been successful, but the eye problem has gotten worse. The eye has what looks like a hard crust over it building up from the outside in , as well as brown discolourisation and now the other eye is starting to go cloudy. <A bad sign> The fish stills seems healthy, eats a lot, swims around and through the live rock, possibly scratching and inflaming the problem more. I have tried to be thorough looking through previous responses to other peoples questions but I have found none that sounds like what my fish has. I know you may have answered questions like this before so any references or direct advice you could give me is much appreciated. Keep up the good work and thanks for helping by providing such a brilliant site. Kind regards Chris. <Thank you for your words of acknowledgement. As you point out, the highly likely root cause here is environmental... Fix this animal's world and you'll fix the animal. In all honesty it needs to be in a much larger system... 90 gallons or more, not 90 litres... Bob Fenner>

Cloudy eye on Potter's Angel  - 05/29/06 Greetings,   I have a Potter's Angel and just noticed she has a cloudy eye on the right side. I am treating the tank for Ich with No-Ich made by Fish-Vet Inc. <... Why?>   I cannot find any info about cloudy eye in regards to Potter's Angel. Please help.   Thanks in advance for any help. <... Not an easily kept species... Read here: http://www.google.com/custom?q=cloudy+eye+potter%27s+angel&sitesearch=wetwebmedia.com cached versions... a simple Google search with key terms... Bob Fenner>

Lemonpeel health...Splinter on back?  5/16/06 I have a Lemonpeel angelfish with a white almost splinter like thing high up on its dorsal fin, near the rear.  It almost looks like you could pick it off, yet looks like its embedded except for the part that's kinda sticking out.  Its about the size of a pin head.  Everything else with the fish seems to be normal, no other symptoms at all.  I have only had the fish 4 days.  Should I treat it just leave it alone since it seems to not have any other symptoms, or do think more symptoms will follow? <I would keep an eye on it, look for any developing redness in the area.  Doesn't sound like anything much to worry about.  A pic would help. James (Salty Dog)> Respectfully, <Robin, in future queries, do not put all the personal info below your name.  I do delete this for your privacy as these queries are posted daily and viewed by gazillions of people.> Robin  

Possible fungal infection  - 03/12/2006 Hi Crew!   I have a Potters Angel in quarantine. I have had him for almost a month. He is in a 55 gallon quarantine that I started with  water from the main display and a power filter that I had on the display for 2 months prior to setting up my quarantine. <Good set-up... this is a "touchy" species for aquarium use (by coincidence I'm out in their home waters in HI> I do 30 - 40% water changes every other day. I feed a variety of good frozen foods and alternate Vita-Chem and Selcon. He gets Algae strips daily.  He was the picture of health at purchase, he ate and was very alert and curious . The guy at the LFS only used one net to catch him [I even went and grabbed another for him, but he didn't  think it necessary] <Foolish... two nets please!> When he finally caught the fish, I thought it looked as if his mouth was pinned to the glass with the net. He seemed fine when I got him home, so I didn't dwell on the rough treatment of my Pretty Angel... But then last week I noticed his fins fraying . Around that time he lost his spunk, he was not swimming all over the tank picking at the decor anymore. He was also not eating as well as before. He seemed to swim more  on the bottom. I started doing daily water changes but that did not seem to help. I started treating him with Furan-2. I was getting ready to do my morning water change after the second dose when I noticed the Angels mouth, It looked horrible!! It almost looked as if it had exploded! I got the flashlight out and stared at him for an hour it seems. He has something white  in his mouth.  The white stuff is also hanging out of his mouth, and parts of his mouth look torn. I have tried to get a picture, but they all turn out too dark. <... might well be subsequent to the net thrashing. Arggghhhh!>   I want to save my Angel. I am not sure what course of action to take next but I feel I need to act quickly. I know fungal infections are rare but the more I read, the more I think that's what I'm dealing with. I purchased some Maroxy [sp?] <This is it> today and I also have some Kanacyn, both say they treat fungal infections. I cannot decide which to use. I need your expert opinion please!   Thank you all so much for taking the time to help!!   P.S. It is 4am, I am dead tired so I hope this letter is legible   Thanks again, Kim <Either of these materials could/can be used... if the last, the antibiotic, it's best to try getting some into the fish via offered foods... Bob Fenner>
Re: Possible fungal infection, Centropyge  - 03/13/2006
Thanks Bob.   I started the Kanacyn Saturday morn. He is still alive. He can't eat due to the white 'growth' in his mouth unfortunately .   Keep your fingers and toes crossed that he pulls through!!   Thanks again! <Am rootin' for you and your Potter's... a gorgeous species, but one that does poorly by and large in captivity. Bob Fenner>

Bicolor angel/disease?   3/4/06 Hi Bob <James today> I'm a huge fan and love your book. <Bob thanks you.>  I have a 125g FOWLR tank that's been running for almost three months now.  My bicolor angel just started to rub his face against some of the LR yesterday and has no physical signs of any parasites. <May be too early to see.>  He's  looks good and has been eating fine though.   Do you think this is the beginning of ICH ? <Don't know> What should I do right now ? <I'd watch closely and at first sign of disease transfer to QT.> Leave him there or give him a dip and QT for several weeks? I was thinking of doing a five minute Methylene blue  dip and QT with Cupramine for two weeks. <I really don't like treating fish unless I know for sure that they are infected.  Was the fish in QT before going into the display?>  In the main tank I also have: 1 blue throat trigger, 2 Clarkiis, 3 Chromis Your help is highly appreciated.   It's a tough hobby, <Not so tough, as long as we don't make it tough.>  buts it's people like you who keep us going ! thanks <You're welcome.  James (Salty Dog)> Peter 

Coral Beauty, Pimple on Pectoral Fin--Popped?  - 2/15/2006 (This is long, because there is a lot of background.  Per your WWM-etiquette page, that's how you want it, I hope.  The basic question is what I should do about a pimple that looks like it either became a whitehead or popped on my 3-4 week Coral Beauty in the Quarantine tank.) <Mmm, the basic response: No...> Hi.  Thanks so much for the site.  I spend several hours a week reading the site since finding it last summer (summer 2005).  Anyway, I have a 55 gallon display tank, and a 27 gallon QT, in which my problem arose.  (tank specs are below)  I only have (1) 4 1/2" Tang and a 5" Maiden Goby in my display tank (along with a sizeable cleaner crew).  Oh, I did add 5 Berghia Nudibranch(es?/i?) <Just "s"> about a month ago to take care of an Aiptasia problem, but I'm not sure if they are doing much or not-haven't seen them for about three weeks, but that's an aside.  Anyway, about a month ago I purchased 3 white and black striped Humbug Damsels and a Coral Beauty from my LFS. Basically, my wife has been harassing me for months that I need some more fish in my display tank, so I took her with me and let her pick out some suitable (to both of us) community fish.  The guy at the store said that Coral Beauties are super sensitive to changes in water, so I drip acclimated it for about 2 1/2 hours, and the Damsels for maybe an hour or so.  I did not do a freshwater bath, particularly for the Coral Beauty because I was concerned I was going to kill it due its alleged sensitivity, and because I really didn't know "how" to do it (had a couple casualties a year or two ago leading to this fear).  I just recently found that article on using Methylene Blue freshwater dips, so I'm set there for the future. The largest of the three Damsels began pestering the smaller two almost immediately upon putting them in the QT (I have about 7 pounds of LR, for hiding, etc.).  The day after I bought the fish, I noticed that the Coral Beauty had a 1/4" to 3/16" pink pimple looking thing where its left pectoral fin connects to its body (couple photos at the following URL, but it's not very photogenic). http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/russjohnson/album?.dir=850f&.src=ph&store=&pro did=&.done=http%3a//photos.yahoo.com/ph//my_photos <I see it, but just barely> I searched your site, and couldn't find anything that made me concerned about the pimple, so I just kept an eye on it.  I thought it may have been from a lack of iodine, because this tank had been fallow for at least two or three months (running, but with 1" of live sand, the rocks, a large Penguin Charcoal filter, and some snails).  My Tang got Ich in October '05, so I moved him and the Goby up there to treat-they both are happy now.  Other than a couple water changes, I really haven't touched the QT since they moved back downstairs to the display tank, so that's why I added some extra iodine and Kent's Essential Elements recently (about 5-20ml of each about 2-3 times a week).  I did change the QT water before adding the new fish and made sure the water quality was near perfect.  I thought the pimple may have been from a lack of iodine due to some reading on the site...again not sure, it was probably there when I bought it-moral of the story is I shouldn't let my wife pick out fish, but this whole process has really caused her to take some more interest in the fish, so that's a good thing, if nothing else. Quarantine Tank Specs: SG:  1.019 (I'm slowly raising it after Ich treatment) <Good... 1.025> Temp:  83 (again, lowering due to Ich treatment) pH:  8.2-8.3 Nitrates:  ~20 (yes, I was surprised, I'll do a 50% water change after this email; it was <10ppm about 10 days ago) Ammonia:  Zero Copper:  ~.5 to .75ppm <Get rid of this> Anyway, so about a week into the Quarantine, the pimple was unchanged, but the Coral Beauty had developed Ich (could it have been from not breaking the tank down?). <Likely the fish had it... the tank is parasitized...>   The big Damsel had already killed the smallest Damsel (now I know why they are called Humbugs), and will have killed the other one a couple days later.  Damsels all looked healthy otherwise, eating/swimming, so I'm pretty sure they died due to bullying (and I observed the relentless bullying).  As for the Coral Beauty, I figured that 3mo would have been long enough in the QT for the parasites to die and not worry about transmitting it to these new fish, but in the future I will break down this tank, to eliminate the possibility of Ich transmission.  My wife wants the top of her dresser back anyway, so everyone is happy.  As soon as I noticed the Ich spots develop, I began to treat with copper.  I'm pretty sure it was chelated copper (the kind that stays in the water longer), <If not the fishes would be dead at this concentration> but the package was silent on this fact.  I raised the copper level to 1.5ppm, and the Coral Beauty's condition worsened slightly over the next couple days. <Centropyge are more sensitive to copper exposure...>   I bumped it up to 2.0 for a week or so, and the Ich went completely away in about a week.  Oh, I should also mention that I added a week's worth of Maracyn-Two during that time, to eliminate the possibility of any secondary infection, based on some advice I read. The Ich on the Coral Beauty went completely away in about a week after bumping up the copper.  I checked the copper level about twice a day to verify it stayed at 2.0ppm.  After a week of the high copper levels I concluded (based on the advice on your site) that the Damsel developed copper poisoning (began swimming around erratically, the next day, swimming sideways a lot, sitting on the bottom of the tank, breathing hard, died after about 3 days of this).  Having to choose between the Coral Beauty and the Damsel, I chose to keep up the copper up to cure the Coral Beauty (the Coral Beauty had /just/ began to be free from the Ich spots, and I know I needed to keep up the levels another day or two, to be sure she was cured). About 7-10 days after all the symptoms went away, I added a new carbon filter and a couple days after that I filled up the plastic refillable sleeves in the filter with new carbon to get rid of the copper.  As noted, I am doing a water change tonight as well.  However, after coming home from out of town last night my wife said that she thought the Coral Beauty was getting Ich again.  It isn't, but here is my question-finally.  She was correct that something changed:  the pink pimple I mentioned earlier now looks just like an acne pimple that "popped".  The pimple had begun to shrink since the Ich was gone (now about 1/8 inch), and apparently over the weekend it "popped".  What my wife thought was the White Spot of Ich is definitely some sort of substance coming OUT of the pimple.  Am I just overly paranoid here?  I have read a couple articles were you guys wrote that sometimes fish just get pimple-type things and it's nothing to sweat. Should I cut the pizza and chocolate out of the Coral Beauty's diet?  (Heh, Heh, just kidding) <Mmm> I have searched and searched, is this something I should be concerned about? It is otherwise normal, eats everything I put in the tank  (she prefers anchovy pizza), and has cleaned off all the algae on the back of the tank, likes hiding out in the rocks, and seems happy.  In searching the site, I thought /maybe/ it was Lymphocystis, or a tumor (that's the other reason I was bumping up the Iodine so much).  I'm not sure it's Lymphocystis though. It seems that Lymphocystis usually attacks the ENDS of the fins, rather than the base of the fin.  Moreover, the white spot/puss, doesn't look like cauliflower (though frankly this isn't a helpful description, b/c if I ever let a growth on one of my fish get to the size that I could identify its shape as something other than a spot, I should not be keeping marine fish). I guess when I saw the white puss/spot at the tip of the pimple, I thought this was good as if it is popping, but I really have no idea of knowing without you guys' (and gals') help...what do you think? <This spot is/was likely "nothing" catching... a pimple is a good analogy> Should I get a cleaner shrimp for the QT? <You could> I think I read that the Lysmata are not reef safe, so I couldn't throw them in the display tank later, right?  What about the Periclimenes, or Stenopus? <Not my other choices here, no> There is a Peppermint shrimp in there right now too.   Any other advice? <Learn to treat/dip and quarantine all new livestock... investigate before you buy...> It molts about 2x a month, and had babies in the display tank.  When does the quarantine clock "start" now?  When the pimple goes away, or when the symptoms of the Ich were not visible? <Not following you here.> Finally, have you guys ever heard of "Quick Cure"?  It purports to cure Lymphocystis.  ( http://www.petguys.com/pet-guys/-042781008000.html).  Seems surprising to me that there is a "cure" if it is a viral disease...  Man, so many quacks out there... <There is no cure for Lymph... viral in origin. This material is formalin (a biocide) and malachite green... Covered on WWM> Thanks in advance, you guys (and gals) rule. Russ, Columbus, Ohio <Apply yourself Russ... you'll do fine. Bob Fenner>

Angel In Distress?   12/29/05 To the WWM Crew <Scott F. with you tonight!> Bob, thank you very much for your help about the Brooklynella/formalin but I think that my move was too late... Now I have another problem with a beautiful and young Flame. He is in another QT , 30 Lt. He arrived 6 days ago, is eating, and his behavior is ok. Something is wrong because is color is becoming pale and there white powder on is fins (not transparent). Sometimes he scratch the pvc tubes on the tank bottom. <Hmm...could be Ich or some other parasitic illness.> I put CopperSafe in the tank, and will wait till tomorrow. So, please tell me if I must do something else. Best regards Flavio <Well, Flavio, if you suspect parasitic illness, medication is not a bad idea. However, do exercise caution with copper and Centropyge angels, which are notoriously sensitive to it. Monitor copper levels constantly and adjust as necessary to maintain a proper therapeutic dosage. Be ready to remove the fish or dilute the copper levels if the fish shows signs of distress ("burning" fins, loss of appetite, etc.). Formalin is preferred with these fishes. If you are very attentive, and continue observing and monitoring the copper level, you can be successful with this! Follow the manufacturer's recommendations on dosage and duration of the treatment to the letter. Good luck! Regards, Scott F.>

Spots  11/7/05 Hi Crew, <Steven> Basic question: I have a Bicolor dwarf angel that has displayed since I bought him two spots on one his (side) fins. They are larger than the pictures of ick that is shown on various photos I have researched on your site. Also he has not displayed any signs of flashing or scratching, he is breathing fine, grazes all day on live rock, and eats well. He is active and not showing any negative signs to suspect anything other than the visible spots.  I would estimate that the size of the spots would be equal to two large grains of salt each (at least). I have had him now for 10 days and no change, other than he has eaten better each day (getting used to his surroundings).  Question: is ick considered very virulent <Can be... or more "resting"... depending on conditions, infectivity> and with this much time with visible spots would one expect the spots to either multiply, fall off (progression of ick), and make the fish progressively act more stressed/sick? <What you are seeing may be pathogenic (encysted worms most likely, perhaps Sporozoan...) but not likely "catching" or spreading... requires the death of the host, other vectors (intermediates) to spread> I have a 40 watt UV sterilizer, 250 gallons with 250 lbs. of live rock, plus wet/dry, skimmer (skimming well), practice weekly water changes, Phos Ban, Kent Activated Carbon, and refugium with crushed live rock and Caulerpa. I keep the water very pristine (in my humble opinion). Also no other tank inhabitants show any signs of spots, including the ick magnet tangs (Chevron and Orange shoulder).  <Good point, info.> I feed a very varied diet of frozen angel preparations, omnivore, carnivore, Mysis, as well as Nori sheets soaked with Zoecon and Kent Garlic extreme. I wasn't sure if fish could pick up a random parasite that is nothing to be worried about and not otherwise contagious... is this possible? <Nothing to worry about category> I don't think I will treat for anything or even consider moving to a QT tank since there are no signs of stress other than the visible spots.. do you agree?  <Yes, emphatically> Your comments are greatly appreciated, and as always, every one of you are to be commended for your dedication. Steven <Cheers, Bob Fenner> 
Re: Spots  11/8/05
Good Morning Bob, <'Morrow to you Steven> Thank you for your reply regarding the white spots on my Bicolor angel.  <Welcome> Let's for the sake of agreement set aside the possibility that it is ick and instead focus on that this is pathogenic, perhaps Sporozoan as you mentioned.  Is this condition self limiting? <Likely, usually so> As a general rule do these Sporozoans multiply within or on the host fish and are they lethal? <Generally not... lest/until conditions disfavor their host too much...> I know from an emailed description you can only apply your experience in rendering advice, <Yes... of a necessity... honesty. But first and other hand...> however I think many people see something odd, and automatically want to have the "shot gun" approach and begin treating, often times doing more damage than what they are treating for. <Ahh, you are wise here... particularly "in the West", folks too often over- mis-treat... well-intentioned, or not, doing so is a source of more mortality than all other causes combined IMO> For this reason, I want to always check myself with someone else and not take an irrational approach. <Good... or at least we are in agreement here> With the size of tank I have and the large amount of live rock, I only want to attempt to catch this fish if I absolutely have to. Again thank you! Steven <Welcome. Bob Fenner>

Dwarf Angel with Rotting Fin Caused by Shrimp? 10/25/05 Hi Everyone, <Hello Casper>  First of all, thanks for the great site, I read it everyday and try my best to follow all the recommendations you all make. First of all I have a Dwarf Flame Angel in a reef tank. He has always been happy and never seems to have a problem. Three days ago I added two Lysmata amboinensis "Skunk Cleaner Shrimp" (?) to the tank.  I was instantly amazed at how the angel reacted and started interacting with the shrimp. He spent the first couple days receiving constant cleaning from the pair. Today when I looked at him, I noticed that one of his side fins was missing about 1/3 of the fin.  The fin does not appear to be diseased as it is very clean looking. The fish is swimming around like nothing is wrong. He is not scratching, eating fine, has no other spots or marks, and this is isolated to only one fin.  Do you think that he is being over cleaned by the shrimp? Could there be some underlying disease that the shrimp are taking care of? Do I need to treat the fish with any medications? I gratefully look forward to any advice you might have.  <Casper, I would let nature take its course. Nothing to be alarmed about, fin will grow back. James (Salty Dog)> 

Sick Coral Beauty  9/19/05 Hi Guys <How goes it?> I kinda feel guilty having to bother you, but I have a Coral Beauty in need. <Not a problem, that's why we volunteer :)> I have a 20 gallon tank (a little small) with two protein skimmers, both for 60 gallon tanks and I'm using carbon and Poly Filter with 20-25% water changes weekly. <Sounds good> The water is 78 F, S.G. 1.024 , ph 8.2 , ammonia  0, nitrite 0, nitrate 0-5. <All good> The animals are 1-Coral Beauty (Sunrise), 1-Black Clown (Dab), 1-Banded Shrimp (Aunt Tennay), 1-Turbo Snail (Wetfoot). I've had them for a little more than a year. I was feeding Brine shrimp with Spirulina almost exclusively (my mistake I think). <Not nearly varied enough, and brine shrimp do not provide much nutritional value> I'm now feeding seaweed (red and green), Spectrum dry, an omnivorous and an Angel formula with sponge in it. <Great!> Sunrise has fading color to the point of spottiness in places, lightly tattered fins and has done some twitching and scraping, is losing his appetite and hides too much now. The quarantine tank is ready but I can't figure out if I should use it or what I would do if I did. <Keep up the varied diet...try to get a hold of some live Mysid shrimp (www.Reed Mariculture.com is a great source of live foods of all types) to feed Sunrise as well.  Don't make the move to a quarantine tank until you can positively identify a disease.  This will hopefully work itself out.  Everything else you're doing is fine, so for now it's just wait and see> Thanks for any help you can offer. <Anytime> James <Michael Maddox>

Possible fin or tail rot?  9/7/05 Hi <Hello Jeri> I have a coral beauty angel that is having some issues. We have a 46 gal tank. <Too small...> Wet/dry filter, 2 powerheads, and a penguin bio wheel power filter (to acclimate the wet/dry). We have 2 clowns, 1 coral beauty, 20 red leg hermits, 7 turbo snails, 1 emerald crab, 1 cleaner shrimp (Super cool), and a Condylactis anemone. And about 20lbs. live rock. Water conditions are ammonia & nitrite 0, nitrate 30ppm, Salinity 1.022, <I would raise, keep this near 1.025> Ph 8.2 & Temp 80 degrees. (which is high, we normally run at 76 - 78 degrees). We just got back from vacation and will remedy that problem. My Coral Beauty has what looks to be fin or tail rot now.  We thought the fish had Lymphocystis and let it run its course. We just tried to keep water quality good and fed healthy diet. <Good... this is what I would have done> Now the spots have fallen off and it looks like in most of the places the spots were he has holes. When we left him on Friday he had 2 holes in his tail. LFS asked if he was eating, which he is better than ever, and if the holes looked frayed. At that time they were not. LFS said it could be one of the clowns and that usually when you have a complete hole in the middle part of a fin that it is usually a bite from another fish. Said to watch fish for changes. <Mmm, no... very likely is water quality directed... from your wet-dry type of filtration, stress from being in a small system...> Well we just got back from vacation and the holes are frayed in the tail, the right side of his mouth is white (looks swollen and discolored), and he seems to have a nasty sore or ulcer on the ridge of his back. Also where he had the largest of the white spots. He is eating and swimming better than he ever has before. We are not sure what this is or what to do for him. <Could, can modify the wet-dry, add other filtration moda... DSB, Refugium, macro-algae... more live rock...> We do have a hospital tank available for him, but we just don't know how to treat him and our LFS is closed for 2 days. Our QT is 20 gal tank with a blue damsel in it. We have a separator net we use when quarantining a fish. Not sure what to do in the case of treating a fish. This tank has a penguin BioWheel power filter as well, powerhead, airstone, and some PVC. I guess my questions are: Do you know what is wrong with the Coral Beauty? <Environment mostly, likely nutritional, social aspects secondarily> What should we do about it? <Consider improving the above> If he needs to be treated in the QT, do we need to remove the biological filter? <Mmm, no benefit in moving this animal, not a pathogenic disease...> I think that is everything. Sorry for the long email, but I did searches on the FAQ about fin rot, white mouth, & Lymphocystis couldn't find the help I needed. Thanks, Jeri <No worries re length. State what you think is important (you have done this well). Please start reading here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisease.htm to gain an understanding, more holistic view of what "disease" is... then here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/centropyge/index.htm for the linked FAQs files above on Centropyge "Systems", "Disease/Health", and "Feeding". Bob Fenner>
Re: Possible fin or tail rot?  9/8/05
Thanks for great advice. I will start raising the salinity slowly. There is one sore on his back that seems to be open and I can see some pink. It is where the largest white spot was. I know you said to improve environment, but would he benefit from PolyAqua? That was recommended from LFS and to improve his environment. <The PolyAqua will not improve the environment or benefit this fish> We are looking to get more live rock for the tank. Also I have heard about putting small pieces of Live Rock in the wet/dry instead of bio balls. Does that really work to keep the system clean? <Yes...> I had no idea that our tank would be too small for this fish. <You can read re... on WWM, books> I don't know what some LFS are doing. You ask for advice and assume it will be good. <My real "advice" is assume nothing in this world indefinitively> Glad I found you all here to double and triple check any other advice I get. We are saving up to buy a Tenecor Marine ready 150 gal tank. We may be buying sooner than we thought. I will check out the articles/FAQs that you recommended. Thanks! <Real good. Cheers, Bob Fenner>
Re: Possible fin or tail rot?  9/8/05
This morning the Coral Beauty is not eating, breathing very hard, laying vertical against a rock, and letting the hermit crabs & emerald crabs eat away at his fins. He is swimming into them and staying there like they are cleaner shrimps. Water parameters all same except temp is 78 and salinity is about 1.023. Clowns are eating and doing well.   <...> We are going to remove him from the tank so the crabs can't do anymore damage. What else can we do for him? Jeri <... read... what is your take on the size, type, quality of habitat... its suitability for this species? Bob Fenner>
Re: Possible fin or tail rot?  9/8/05
Our LFS has been testing our water quality every time we are there. They do not sell fish to people with unsafe water conditions. I was told by them and from things we have read that 40ppm nitrates is not toxic. <Depending on the "cause/s" of nitrate accumulation... In general, more than 20 ppm. is to be avoided...> We are trying to improve the water quality by adding more live rock, on the recommendation of WWM. <Good... takes time> I had read that dwarf angels need to be in at least 30gal tanks. <Only the "dwarf dwarfs" can be housed in such small quarters... most Centropyge require a minimum of sixty uncrowded gallons (not tank size, volume of water) for one specimen... Others here would say one hundred gallons> 1 angel per 50 gal of water because they can be aggressive toward each other (even when they have lots of room). They like to eat off of live rock. They are not the hardiest of fish, but not the most sensitive angel. <Yes> It was my understanding that he would do fine in our tank as long as we didn't overstock it. We were told that we would not have a problem with the 2 clowns and the Coral Beauty outgrowing the tank. And like I mentioned earlier we are looking to get a much larger tank by the time these fish are full size. <Need it now> We are trying to make more informed decisions by using all different types of references. A lot of the information we are receiving contradicts each other and as a saltwater novice it's hard to figure out what is best. We are doing the best we can and are not purposely setting out to kill fish, as that would be a very expensive & cruel hobby. <Agreed> I do thank you for all of your help and will continue to read your site and learn as much as I can. Thanks, Jeri <Jeri, it may seem self-serving, but I encourage you to "step back" here, read a "complete" book on marine aquarium keeping to gain a firm overall understanding, basis. I encourage you to visit your local library, check out what they have. I will state that I am the author of one of these works, "The Conscientious Marine Aquarist"... Bob Fenner>

Re: Ich treatment for dwarf angels  8/27/05 FYI... dwarf angels don't do well with a full dose of rid Ich.  all  three are now dead.  ph, salinity, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate were all  very good.   after two weeks of treatment Ich was not totally gone.   maybe it was the Ich...maybe it was two weeks of formalin.  none the less,  very unsuccessful. <Beware of formalin... a biocide. RMF>

Coral Beauty swimming like a seahorse? 8/21/05 I have a 46 gallon tank. We have 2 clownfish, several snails & hermit crabs, a Condylactis anemone, and a coral beauty. The coral beauty is swimming like a seahorse. Head up, tail down. He has been doing that ever since we moved him into the main tank 3 days ago. <Ohhh> He was doing well in the QT, swimming, not eating real well. He mostly hid in the QT. I have tested the water quality and it is great Ammonia 0 nitrite 0, nitrate 10ppm, Ph 8.3, temp 78, salinity 1.022. The clowns are great eating everything in sight but the Coral Beauty is not eating at all and then the funny swimming. We have tried frozen brine shrimp, Marine cuisine, emerald entree, seaweed, and the angel mix. Nothing is working. What can be causing him to swim this way? Any suggestions on how to get him to eat? <Mmm, could be a few things re the swimming, non-eating... most likely damage (gas bladder most commonly, by needling for decompression post-capture) in the process of collection, transport... Or a sting... from the Condylactis?> He looks tired and his gills are starting to look a little white or pale. What can we do to help this fish? Thank you for any help, Jeri <Mmm, really only improving water quality, hope... Do you have live rock? The organisms found in/on this are often about all Centropyge angels do initially feed on... and the LR would help to improve water quality... Bob Fenner>
Re: Coral Beauty swimming like a seahorse? 8/22/05
We do not have any live rock. We are talking about finding a reputable place here in Denver to get fully cured live rock and/or sand. With live sand how much should be put on the bottom of a 46 gallon tank? <Ahh, I would definitely be adding the best you can, soon> Back to the coral beauty. If he was stung by the anemone, how long would the effect last? Is there a way to force feed him? <Not easy to force feed... stings can last days, weeks> I noticed he has one white spot on his right side. It looks to be one large grain of salt embedded in his skin. He also seems to have scraped his neck/back area. His spikes look a little gray and are frayed a bit in that area. We have been watching the clowns closely and they are doing great. They are eating everything in sight, and look very healthy. <All markings are stress-related> The store had the Coral Beauty for 3 weeks swimming and eating fine, we had in QT for 2 weeks and it was swimming fine, mostly hiding, but not eating real well. We moved him to the main tank when our QT spiked ammonia and water changes were not helping it. We thought it would be better for the fish to be in better water conditions. <Mmm, on to that LR. Bob Fenner>
Re: Coral Beauty needs help  8/26/05
Spot is on left side and now left gill not working. He is spending a lot of time at the top of the tank, We did a 10% water change tonight to keep water optimum. Nitrates still showing about 10 -20ppm. So we will keep working on that. What can I do to help this fish? <Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/dwfangdisfaqs.htm and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>

New Flameback angel (Centropyge aurantonotus) fat belly Hi. I bought a Flameback 2 days ago and noticed that he has an enlarged belly and that he has a white patch at the bottom of his belly, near his anal fins. <From stretching?> Should I treat him with antibiotics - I'm thinking he got infected because he may had been decompressed with a needle. <May be...> Or should I treat him for internal parasites? <No> If I do both, which treatment should I do first? <For "blockage"... add a level teaspoon of Epsom Salt per ten gallons of system water...> Thank you for website and the great advice that you give. Oh...water parameters in my 10g QT are all good. NH3=0, NO3=0, SG=1.025, temp=78F. <Hopefully, this too shall pass. Good luck, life. Bob Fenner> 
Re: New Flameback angel (Centropyge aurantonotus) fat belly
Thanks Bob, but the little guy did not make it. I found him dead this morning.  I am curious on how to determine if a Flameback has internal parasites vs. "blockage" or internal infection.  <Can be necropsied... cut open for investigation, microscopically examined. Can do, or have done, a histological work-up. Bob Fenner>

- Coral Beauty Angel - I recently started my first salt water aquarium, and things have been going very well so far.  I have a 55 gallon drilled tank with an AMiracle wet/dry, Remora Pro skimmer, 45lbs of Fiji live rock, two tank raised clowns, and a banded coral shrimp so far along with some turbo snails and a hermit crab. The other day I brought home a coral beauty angel, and put it in my quarantine tank (glad I did so).  It looked great at first, but now it has a lot of tiny white spots on it.  I have seen Ich on regal tangs and full size angels in pet stores before, and it looks like this.  When I brought the fish home two days ago I gave it a 4 minute fresh water dip (ph and temp adjusted) as your site recommends.  I added it to my 10 gallon quarantine tank that has an 8 watt UV on it (way overkill). <Is OK, a fine place to run UV.> Is it normal for this fish to get Ich even with the freshwater dip? <Not abnormal.> What can I do to get rid of it? <Dip again, vacuum the bottom of the quarantine tank. Make sure you have a flow rate sufficient to kill Protozoans with the UV.> Once the symptoms have disappeared, is there any way to be sure it is gone (my main concern is not infecting the display tank)? <Keep up the quarantine for at least two weeks. If symptoms don't reappear, then you should be OK adding the fish to the main tank.> Should I give it another longer dip (it didn't seem to like the first one much, so I am reluctant). <That won't hurt.> If there is no sure way to do this would you recommend trying to return the fish to the pet store? <No... I'd try and see this through. These fish are for the most part, surprisingly tough.> Please give me any advice you can, this is the first hurdle I have run into. <Well, you did the right thing by putting the fish in quarantine. Good job.> I am hoping to get through it smoothly. <I think you will.> I am hoping that by reading as much as I can and being smart about things I can avoid most of the problems people have switching to salt. <I think you are off to a good start.> Thanks! -Ken   <Cheers, J -- >

Any hope for this Coral Beauty? Hello WWM Crew, Unfortunately, my letter today is not a happy one. <You're telling me... your message is in HTML!> I have recently completed a fishless cycle with my new 50 gallon reef tank. The water parameters have now stabilized and are ideal per the recommendations on this site. The cleaning crew and so on are in place. To 'celebrate' the new tank's readiness for fish after a very long 3 month wait, my non marine hobbyist friend bought me a Coral Beauty angelfish.  I received it in a deep bucket in the evening and, naturally, we acclimated it over several hours via a drip in dim lighting so I was not really able to see it completely. I was aware that it had a torn tailfin, but it looked minor in the darkness. He seemed to be all right; breathing a little hard but nothing too serious, so I introduced him to his QT with the lights off and went to bed.  When I awoke in the morning and saw him with the lights on, I was appalled. I have never seen a fish in this condition before. His fin spines are exposed completely, his tail is torn and both it and a patch on his body look like they are developing a fungal infection. But worst of all is his mouth. His mouth is so raw, swollen and damaged that it is painful to look at him. It's completely white and blood vessels are visible.  I tried to tempt him with some Nori and Formula One, but he was disinterested in both. I'm actually wondering if he is physically capable of eating with his mouth in that condition. He is rapidly breathing, but apart from that, swims normally and appears alert and plump. Is there any hope for this fish? <Some, but not much... sounds too damaged> What can I do for him. My husband took one look and declared him hopeless, but I'm not willing to give up on him. Suggestions? <To add a bit of LR to the quarantine tank, keep the spg a little low (1.021 or so), keep trying different foods, and hope... Bob Fenner>  

Angels Fallen from Grace Dear Crew, You guys, and gals, have been a Godsend.  <Thank you, nice to mention our fair maidens.>  Thanks to you and all that have gone before we have now a fairly stable young reef tank in the making. We are still having a few problems with pH and alk but we're working on it. However, this problem is completely out of the norm, if there is such a thing and if possible would like a couple of different opinions. This morning I woke up to find both my Coral Beauty and my Flame Angel dead! The Coral Beauty was in the back and I scooped him out but when the lights kicked on and everyone came out for breakfast I didn't see the Flame. Found him a minute later on the other end of the tank and removed him also. Immediately removed some water and tested. pH 7.8, amm.0, nitrites a trace maybe .1, nitrates less than 10 All tests done with SeaTest. S.G. is 1.027. I am writing this at 1700 hrs. and the pH is now 8.4. I know I need to stop this swing... <The swing is normal, ph will lower through the night, more so if you have macro algae.>  ... and we are in the process of hooking up a 60 gal. sump with a Mag36, a refugium, and the reverse photo period. The water has been stable as far as what I can test for. Never any ammonia, nitrates never above 10, and usually 0 nitrites. The tank is 125 gal. acrylic with a 5 to 6 inch sand bed, 100 to 130 lbs of live rock a TurboFlotor HOT skimmer with Ocean runner 2700 pump, pulls about cup of really yucky skimmate every couple of days, we change 10 to 20% of the water every week, (rarely do we miss a w/c). Use Instant Ocean Salt in buffered well water.  There are also four P.H.s doing 300 gph each and an Aqua Clear HOT that does 500 gph. In the AquaClear is Marineland Black Diamond carbon that is changed every week (a good 8 oz. ).  Now the description of the fish. Both of them looked perfect in body and fins and we have had the CB angel for a little over a year and the Flame at least 6 mths. They did not fight or even chase one another. Last night when I fed all seemed normal.  ( We feed: frozen Formula 1 & 2, Brine shrimp plus, mysids, Prime Reef, Cyclop-eeze and Formula 1 flakes. No, not all at once. )  Now when I found the Coral Beauty and looked at it up close in my hand the first thing I noticed was its mouth. It was white! not fuzzy. It appeared the flesh was gone of just its lips. Do fish have lips?  <Sort of>  His body color, his fins everything visible looked perfect. But the lips had no flesh and was rough to the touch. Then I found the Flame and his mouth was the same. No tears no red just white bony lips. I have a couple of SMALL hermits somewhere in the tank but nobody was picking on the bodies.  <Not that you saw, perhaps during the night.> <<These fishes are chemically BURNED. RMF>>

The inhabitants are:  2-1in. Green Chromis, 2 Firefish, 1 Blue Gudgeon, 1 Scissortail Dart, 1 2in. Sixline Wrasse, 1 3 in. Canary Wrasse/Yellow "Coris", 3 Skunk Cleaner Shrimp, 1 Coral Banded Shrimp and a variety of corals.  That is everything I can think of and probably a lot more than needed, but you never know. The only thing I have done differently in the last week is I added Purigen to the AquaClear last Wed. (Apr. 20). I have never used this before but I trust the company and read over the archives, finding no negatives. I also used SeaChem's Reef buffer for the first time but less than the directions called for. (I am leery of additives and want to wait for the sump to be finished before I start dumping in stuff I'm not familiar with).  I mention the inverts because I would expect them to be the first to react to adverse water conditions and it is strange to me that something would kill two seemingly healthy fish of the same genus and not affect anything else.  P.S. It is the next morning now, (I type reeeaaallly slow), the actinics just came on and everyone left is out for breakfast and looking fine. The only thing I did yesterday was clean the AC filter, remove the Purigen which had been in 6 days, and added fresh carbon and Poly Filter. I did not do a w/c because the only water I had ready was what I had used last week and wanted to make up some new just in case it was the water but I doubt it.  Am hoping that someone there has some idea what this could be. BTW both fish came from the same LFS but like I said at least 6 mths apart. Have tried to attach pictures hope they help (hope they get there). Thank you so much for your time and efforts. Diane and Tom. P.S.P.S The actinics have been on 30 min. and the pH is 8.0, barely, and the alk. is 2. meq./L.  I really miss my angels already but don't know if the symptoms are indicative of poisoning, something peculiar to dwarf angels?  <It seems unlikely that this would be poisoning. I'm sure you don't spray Windex near the tank or any other ammonia based chemical. Inverts will usually handle more ammonia than fish. Other than that, I'm at a loss for an explanation. I will put this in a folder and Mr. Fenner may offer more information. You mention well water. Do you RO this water or use it directly from the tap. Quite possible this may have had something in it. Fertilizers etc, eventually get down to your water table. The angels you had are more sensitive to water chemistry changes than the rest of your fish. James (Salty Dog)>

Angelfishes for  Marine Aquariums
Diversity, Selection & Care

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