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FAQs on Marine Velvet, Amyloodiniumiasis 4

Related Articles: Marine Velvet, Parasitic Disease, Copper Use, Formalin, Formaldehyde Use,

Related FAQs: Marine Velvet 1, Marine Velvet 2, Marine Velvet 3, & FAQs on Amyloodinium/Velvet: Diagnosis/Symptomology, Prevention, Cures That Don't Work, Cures That Do Work, Products/Manufacturers... & Marine Parasitic Disease, Parasitic Marine Tanks, Parasitic Reef Tanks, Cryptocaryoniasis, Marine Ich, Biological Cleaners, Treating Parasitic Disease, Using Hyposalinity to Treat Parasitic Disease,

More likely Crypt.

Marine Velvet surprise attack      7/27/19
Hi WWM Crew
Please help me figure out the cause of our disaster. We are in total shock. Five dead fish today and two others with obvious signs of velvet.
Two days ago everything appeared fine. Last added to tank was 2 pajama cardinals about 6 months ago - quarantined prior to putting in display. They appear unaffected at this point. All other residents range from 11 years old (Flame Angel) to 3 year old Blue Chromis.
In 2014 we did have a devastating strike of Velvet and lost many fish. Several fish did survive - the aforementioned Flame Angel was one. It was quite a long time afterwards until we added anything to our display tank and subsequently have been diligent regarding QT any new additions.
It’s been 20 years of owning reef tanks and five years since the mentioned outbreak.
How could the parasite survive so long without any afflictions to the fish all these years?
Any insights?
Regards, Brenda Brush
<Mmm; well, Amyloodinium can/may be introduced on most anything marine/wet... foods, water from an infested system, live rock and sand, non-fish livestock... There is some possibility that this Dinoflagellate pest/parasite (and others, e.g. Cryptocaryon), can be resident... even in systems that show not even clinical symptoms. There is indeed a balance of favoring, disfavoring factors that can tip a system (via its potential hosts) toward infestation. I'll offer a link to an effort I've penned to describe such: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisease.htm
Bob Fenner>
Marine Velvet surprise attack Wil’s input      7/27/19

Hi WWM Crew
<Hi Brenda>
Please help me figure out the cause of our disaster. We are in total shock. Five dead fish today and two others with obvious signs of velvet.
Two days ago everything appeared fine. Last added to tank was 2 pajama cardinals about 6 months ago - quarantined prior to putting in display. They appear unaffected at this point. All other residents range from 11 years old (Flame Angel) to 3-year-old Blue Chromis.
In 2014 we did have a devastating strike of Velvet and lost many fish. Several fish did survive - the aforementioned Flame Angel was one. It was quite a long time afterwards until we added anything to our display tank and subsequently have been diligent regarding QT any new additions.
It’s been 20 years of owning reef tanks and five years since the mentioned outbreak.
How could the parasite survive so long without any afflictions to the fish all these years?
Any insights?
<It is not uncommon to see these outbreaks from time to time; even in the most established tanks that have no new additions for a long time, it may happen. Amyloodinium as well as Cryptocaryon are always present but in a dormant state, and just like in the case of humans, these parasites/pathogens are waiting for the immune system to be compromised to launch an attack, the worst part is that they don’t need just live fish to thrive, they can survive in almost any wet surface, so it is possible to transfer them in all wet gear commonly used in maintenance chores (nets, hoses, buckets, etc…) Hope you find this helpful- Cheers. Wil.> <<Thank you Wil... I swear we're two different people! B>>
Regards, Brenda Brush

Marine Velvet Dormancy      10/16/18
Hello Bob and Team!
<Hello Anik, Wil this morning>
Hope you are doing well. Like any reefer, I’m constantly reading about preventing any disasters.
<Like any good/responsible reefer!>
The topic of my paranoia this week is Marine Velvet. Some facts about my setup: my display tank is 100G mixed reef; shows no signs of marine Velvet and never has. There’s been a sign of ich once, which made itself visible on bullied fish but that cleared up on its own and everything has been clear since. Btw I QT everything, and medicate every new fish with PraziPro and Cupramine and observe after.
<Quarantine is fine but there´s no need to medicate if fish are not sick, treating healthy fish just makes any pathogen more resistant to medications and this could be a problem in the future if fish happens to get sick.>
Typically I QT for 3-4 months.
<4-5 weeks is more than enough>
The one time I didn’t was when I added a mandarin to my DT, no QT :(.
Current roster, two ocellaris clowns, male Anthias, melanurus wrasse, yellow Coris, yellow flanked fairy wrasse, flame angle and tiny blonde Naso.
<I hope you are aware that the Naso tang will need a bigger tank (a few to several hundred gallons) to have a long, healthy life.>
Anyways, questions; is it possible to have marine Velvet present in a tank but kept at bay from infestation by keeping water parameters in check and general conditions clean/healthy/happy to hold the velvet in check?
<Actually that is how it works; velvet as well as other diseases are always present in the system water but with good maintenance and feeding practices, you can keep them away of your livestock indefinitely.>
What I am getting at is can a fish have velvet for months and not be symptomatic until something triggers it?
<As I mentioned, disease is always present but only attacks your fish if its immune system is compromised.>
Depending on your answer, I may go against your advice from a few months ago regarding Ick in the DT (referring to that one fish mentioned above); I may just move all my fish to QT and treat them and run the tank fallow out of straight paranoia.
<I don´t see the need of treating your fish without been absolutely sure they are sick, you are going to add unnecessary stress. I wouldn´t move them to QT>
I have two wrasses and a flame hawk in QT right now and would like to plan my next steps to add them to DT...but would like to avoid disaster.
<If you have quarantined/observed them for at least 4 weeks, you may transfer them to the DT.>
Thanks Team! Anik
<You´re very welcome. Wil>
Re: Marine Velvet Dormancy

Thank You Wil!
<You´re welcome Anik!>
Love your teams’ advice. It definitely helps to quell much of my on going paranoia.
< Hahaha....there´s no need to be paranoid! just make wise, on impulsive decisions...we are glad to be helpful…>
I’m secure and confident in my overall QT scheme and don’t plan on adding anymore fish in the future...until I upgrade which is a near term possibility.
<That´s good to know>
Yes the Naso will get a larger home, gladly he’s only 2 inches right now.
<Yes, you still have time to plan the upgrading >
I won’t move the fish then. Thanks again for your advice!
Have a great night.
<Have a great night too!>

Copper treatment, incl. marine Velvet f'... Using WWM      3/15/18
Good evening from Thailand
as I had a bad Marine Velvet outbreak in a tank (fish with life rock only)
I am now having the survivors go through a Cupramine treatment. This started a few days ago and copper levels are sitting nice at the recommended 0.5 ppm and fish seem to be behaving ok still eating well.
(think even noticing some of the survivors showing the parasite previous losing them??)
Some snails I had in there and crabs seem to have died
<!? Yes; of a certainty from the copper exposure. ALL non-fish life needs to be elsewhere; lest they be poisoned AND absorb the copper>

which I knew was going to happen but I figured getting the tank Velvet free and in the same time treat the survives superseded the snails and crab as they can be reintroduced at a later stage again...Now I am wondering as I might want to add new fish to this set up
<What? No; don't add anything here until you're VERY sure the Velvet is gone>
as the suggested 30 day period is on going with every time a new fish is added we start counting back from day 1 I guess.....How long can fish be ok in this therapeutic level of copper and how dangerous is to add new fish
into a copper environment from buying them new...
<There is too much to answer, ask and respond to here by rekeying. But all is available by your searching on WWM re "Cupramine", "Velvet"... and READING. Do so, and write back w/ specific questions (if you have them) afterwards. Bob Fenner>

Marine velvet... no reading, using WWM     11/29/17
Hi, please help me I need to know how to get rid of marine Velvet the quickest way naturally as I have lots of invertebrates in my tank, lost all my fish except a black Combtooth blenny, he’s thriving in tank, I do feed garlic extreme an I do put it in the water, I need to know how long it takes to get rid of marine velvet the no fish way, step by step as this is my first time dealing with this as I’m new to saltwater !
<But not run-on sentences>
I do have fish that have never been in my main tank, that are in a quarantine tank, how do I know when it’s safe to put them in the main tank! Thanks
<.... try reading: Here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/amylloodiniumart.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>

Marine Velvet vs. Freshwater Velvet       9/29/17
Hello, after all these years of being in this hobby and servicing aquariums, I can’t believe that I need to write for advise from you great folks.
I quarantine all marine livestock for four weeks using CopperSafe at 2.0 because I service 20 marine aquariums for folks and business and I move many fish through my quarantine tanks.
<Good to have, use a strict S.O.P. here>
I had two jobs that became low on fish and against all my rules of quarantining livestock, I jumped the gun and took fish out after only two weeks in my tanks. Well as Murphy’s Law prevails within a couple weeks fish in these two jobs started dropping like flies.
After witnessing the fish struggle and die I’m fairly sure they have velvet, I do not see the tell tale signs of “ICK” on their bodies but do see the velvet type of film on their bodies before passing away.
<Both can be/come so virulent and undetected/undetectable... REALLY need to sample body slime, perhaps a clipped gill section, and look at under a 'scope>
I’m always ready to learn more and dove into the net to reread on this subject I found that this parasite also thrives with photosynthesis!!
<Yes, Amyloodinium is a Dinoflagellate, a single celled algal species>
To my surprise both jobs are brightly lit with out side light near by!!
My only thought on getting away from these parasites now that the fish are almost all dead is to bomb the job with a heavy dose of copper and let the tank sit for a few weeks.
<Mmm; having been in the aquarium service business myself a few decades, I encourage you to liquid chlorine bleach "nuke" this system.... per the procedure outlined on WWM, rinse, fill, rinse... re-fill and start again; just to be sure>
Another thought is to take these jobs to freshwater “African Cichlids” to be able to have colorful fish for these jobs in a matter of days.
<Ahh yes; another possibility>
But my question to you folks is, will this marine form of Velvet be able to live in freshwater if I don’t manage to kill all the marine velvet and switch the tank to freshwater?
<I think you should be safe here; the freshwater should kill the marine velvet>
Thank You for any help in this matter.
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>

Re: Possible Oodinium Hello again Robert, <Howdy> My fish have been having problems again lately. Several of them have been scratching (a Toby, the tang, and one of the gobies) quite a bit today. There are breathing a little bit heavy, and they look annoyed by something (jerking their bodies, more irritated with each other). The temperature is still running a little bit high, but it hasn't gone above 84 (that may still be too high though). I have powerheads circulating the water, and an airstone. I did a 15 gallon water change (80 gallon tank) making sure that the temperature and salinity matched. The water quality is fine (although the nitrates have been around 20 lately). My question: If I do have a parasitic infection, how do I know and what can I do to treat / stop it (without destroying the live rock / fish's health etc)? <Best is to learn to do a simple skin/slime scrape test... with a microscope, a glass slide... a less than willing fish... No staining necessary... but maybe helpful. Are you using cleaner organisms? Bob Fenner> Thank you again for all of your help in the past! Jim Moss

Re: Marine Velvet / Ich and Chloroquine/Hypo Treatment      6/5/14
Hi Bob and Team,
<Hey there Brad>
Just a follow up. It's been 1.5 weeks since my last email when I initiated hyposalinity treatment + Chloroquine. To date I haven't seen much of any improvement (no fatalities but no improvement), and I'm wondering if perhaps at this stage I've eliminated the Ich/marine velvet and perhaps have flukes (since I've been treating with Chloroquine for about 2 months now, and don't see the trademark ick spots, nor the velvety coating/rapid breathing, just some scattered white spots, some fin fraying, and a few spots in the eyes.
<It is indeed possible. Trematodes are almost always present on marine fishes in the wild...>
interesting that it isn't on all fish, just a few. Some fish show no signs at all. I'm beginning to think maybe I still have some form of flukes/monogeans. It definitely doesn't appear to be anything bacterial or fungal.
<... do you have access to a simple microscope? Sampling and looking is simple...>
From what I can see researching online, I'm not sure that either hyposalinity or Chloroquine would treat flukes (just some anecdotal evidence on forums, but nothing concrete.)
<Mmm; they will not. Straight pH adjusted freshwater WITH formalin will eliminate external (body and gill) flukes... Otherwise, the use of Anthelminthics like Prazi/pro is advised>
I don't want to rush into anything but wanted to seek your guidance on treatment. Should I continue to treat with Hyposalinity/Chloroquine?
<I would not. You've already gone long enough with this M.O.>
Maybe I should pull the Chloroquine with water changes/poly filters, but hold the hyposalinity? The other option I was thinking was to pull the Chloroquine and treat with Praziquantel at hyposalinity levels.
<I'd be reading... THEN doing dips while moving the fish livestock, THEN treating them with Prazi>
I've used Prazi prophylactically in the past for my reef tank fish with Copper. Not sure if it would be ok to treat with it + hyposalinity. Seems like an easier treatment on the fish. I could also punt and continue the current path, but usually in my experience you notice a change in symptoms when you are affecting a cure within a few days, and the multiple weeks of treatment is to ensure you eradicate everything + give your DT time to kill off the parasites.
Any guidance would be greatly appreciated!
Best Regards,
<... wish we could do "the Vulcan mind-meld... am about as olde as Spock!)... reading re Trematodes, 'scope use, the compounds mentioned... Bob Fenner>
Re: Marine Velvet / Ich and Chloroquine/Hypo Treatment
Thanks Bob!
<Welcome Brad>
I do have a microscope, and just got oil for 40x+ resolution, and also a USB adapter so I can take pictures and share. I agree with not doing trial by elimination treatments, and not opposed to pulling all of the fish again for treatment. Just wanted to avoid that if possible as to not stress the fish out more if there was a simpler coarse.
<Course; and better to sample, know what is on your fishes>
Will ponder this a bit more and dig around WMM some more along with pulling out Ed Noga's book for more research after I catch a candidate fish and collect the samples. Just wanted to follow up in case if there was something else obvious that I was missing.
All the best,
<Not that I know of. Cheers, B>

Defeating Marine Velvet in DT and HT        1/18/14
Hi WMM Crew,
I would like to get your opinion on a few specific questions I didn't catch on your site, and which I've seen varying opinions on the net.  I setup a new 300G tank and despite a quarantine period (30 days for the tank, 60 for the fish) after a return pump failure that caused a temp drop because the heater was in the sump there was an outbreak of Ich and marine velvet in the month after the event.  I only noticed the ICH at first, but when the classic velvet symptoms kicked in over the following month I new that evasive action was really required.  So, I've already taken the liberty of removing all of the fish and putting them into my original 120 quarantine.  Not as nice of accommodations as the 300, but I never tore it down after the initial setup, so it was still running fine.  I have a few questions regarding my fallow period and treating the fish.
1.       What is the max temperature I can set the tank to with some crabs/snails and a few leather corals to help speed up the lifecycle of the MV/ICH?  Is 84 or 85 Fahrenheit too hot?   I'm planning a 4 week fallow period.  I also have a 120W UV on the tank with a new bulb just to help things along. 
<The mid to upper 80's F. should be fine>
2.       I've read conflicting opinions about blacking out the tank for a period of time because the marine velvet is a dinospore related to algae.  Assuming I removed the few leather corals, do you think this might help in addition to the temp increase to further impact the velvet?  I was thinking of doing it for a handful of days later in the fallow period.
<A lack of light will kill the dinospores in time; but not a handful of  days>
3.       I have some angels that are noted for being sensitive to copper medications.  My HT is treated with Cupramine, but I was thinking about running carbon to remove that + water change and switching to Chloroquine phosphate which I don't yet own, so I'd have to order.  One thing I've not seen on this site but I've heard conflicting information on the web is if this impact the biofilter at all?
<CP can indirectly malaffect nitrification>
  Some folks say yes, others say no.  Copper doesn't impact it in my HT, but I'm worried that if I put this in it might spike the nitrogen cycle.  Do you think this will impact the biofilter, or do you think the anecdotal evidence about it spiking the bio filter might be folks running it in tanks with invertebrates and algae which it is known to be toxic to.
Hoping this post sheds some light and helps others in the hobby if they have these questions as well.
<I as well>
Thanks much!
<Welcome. Bob Fenner, about to get on a plane>

Likely Marine Velvet infection in display tank where the fish appear immune. Impt. Questions        11/27/13
I appreciate the vast knowledge of the site and have used it quite a bit to try to understand the hobby, but I haven't been able to track a specific answer to the question I have. Basically, I had two fish die, which raised alarms, and my LFS and I couldn't pinpoint cause. My water parameters have been consistently normative. I did not quarantine (tragic flaw), because my LFS does quarantine, but I purchased a fish from a different store, and I believe that fish was the fish that introduced Velvet into my display tank because it was the first to die. The second (an already introduced Toby puffer) followed shortly thereafter.
<IF Amyloodinium, likely all fishes would die... and show symptoms>
The tank is 90g FOWLR with a valentini, dwarf lionfish, Foxface, dwarf angelfish, goby, and a rainbow wrasse.  The two that died were a saddle puffer and a flame angel (which I replaced with the current one). The deaths occurred over a month ago.
Because none of the other fish appeared affected at the time (nor have they shown symptoms at two a half months), I didn't suspect Velvet,
 but I had a 30g freshwater that I converted to saltwater by taking LR and saltwater from the other tank, and I introduced two clown Perculas to it.
They looked healthy for a couple of weeks. One day, they were fine. Both were eating and were fine. The next day, one was dead and the other was swimming in the flow and had a white velvety hue. I pulled it out, gave it a freshwater dip, but it died before I could get it copper treatment.
Long story longer, I Googled "Velvet," and the image of the clown popped up. It was an exact image of what my fish looked like.
<Mmm; could be other Protozoans>
I'm going to let the thirty gallon lie fallow, but the 90g, from which the infestation likely occurred, I don't want to molest. The fish in the 90g appear well.  My question is, will the Velvet die off if the fish in the tank aren't affected, or will it continue to live? Also, will I be able to introduce new fish to that one, or will I have to be wary of an outbreak?
<There are folks; plain hobbyists to academics, who've stated that some parasitic diseases can/do induce immunity; and I do believe this is so, as well as the possibility of such infestations "laying dormant" or existing in sub-clinical states in captive systems... "waiting" for weakened stock, conditions to "become" hyperinfective... How to avoid troubles? The assiduous use of quarantine/isolation ("hardening") of new specimens... even slow introduction to the extant system by way of adding some water from it to the isolation system after the new specimen/s is/are stable.
This sort of topic is touched on in the "Infected States" FAQs files that are linked here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/parasittkfaq2.htm and here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/reefparfaq2.htm
and the linked files in series>
Thank you for your time.
<And you for yours. Bob Fenner>

velvet disaster     7/25/12
Hi Bob,
We're just heartbroken. I looked in on the fish this afternoon and was surprised to see them lined up by the cleaner shrimp. When I took a closer look, I saw that the two Heniochus diphreutes were coated in what appears to be velvet. The two black and white clowns were also being serviced. We got the Heniochus, the clowns and the Kole tang out. They are being treated with Cupramine in a hospital tank. Before we pull all the rock out of the tank to find the other fish, I wanted to find out if can safely leave any of them in there, while we wait for the protozoa to run their course, or do all have to be pulled?
<IF this is Velvet, Amyloodinium, it will likely kill all fishes in there.
Not easily cured, endured>
They are a mandarin goby, a shrimp goby, a royal gramma and a pearly Jawfish. All except the mandarin are going to be tough to corner.
We have two twenty-gallon quarantine tanks. In there are a swallowtail angel, two black and white clowns, the Heniochus and Kole tang. Even if they survive the velvet, do they have a reasonable chance of making it for six weeks in such small tanks?
<Not good odds>
Right now, the swallowtail is completely isolated from the others and because he was already in quarantine, he is uninfected. If I treat his tank with Cupramine though, I was thinking of putting the goby, mandarin, Jawfish and gramma in with him, and have the clowns, tang and Heniochus in the other tank. Does that mix make sense?
<Will be tight>
I don't want to hurt any more fish though. If they do survive the treatment but might not survive the quarantine, I'd prefer to find homes for them as soon as a I can.
any advice is appreciated. we're pretty miserable about this. We thought we were being so careful. I'm wondering now if the mysterious death of the potter's angel last week might be explained by at least having the early stages of velvet, and he then spread it around the tank when I put him in there (he died nearly instantaneously after putting him in the tank).
<Could be another pathogen/Protozoan... need sampling, microscopic examination to tell for sure. Bob Fenner>
velvet outbreak, questions part two     7/26/12

hi bob,
Velvet update: the Kole Tang and the two Heniochus are dead.

The black and white clowns are still alive in the QT.
In a separate QT is a Swallowtail Angel that we obtained from LiveAquaria.
They say he was quarantined for two weeks.  Here are my concerns about her:
1) How will she do in a 20-gallon long tank for however number of weeks she needs to be there while the DT goes fallow?
<... w/ monitoring of water quality, spare feeding... fine>
2) The water in the QT  tank had been changed 50 percent and then filtered for the week or ten days since we removed the potter's angel that died when placing it in the DT. If there was some disease on the Potter's (wasn't visible but who knows?), is the Swallowtail in danger? If so, what advice would you give for a safe preventative?
<Could be and not likely any>
If I pull the other fish from the DT and raise the temperature of the DT, could the corals, clam and cleaner shrimp survive or would I have to remove them.
<... I'd not move anything at this point. Am concerned that you're over-reacting at this juncture; causing yourself and livestock more harm than goo>
 I think you wrote that this would speed up the period that the tank would have to lay fallow. And finally, I've read conflicting reports about mandarins and velvet; some say they are susceptible others say not. Would you leave him in the DT with a higher temperature?
<Leave all as is for now>
Mostly, I want to do what is safest for the fish, so an plan you suggest that will increase their odds works for us. We are just so tired of losing these beautiful fish.
<Time to be patient, investigate... read and reflect. BobF>

Velvet. - 5/7/2012
Hi Crew, Having read your site I notice you say that leaving the tank fallow will remove most of the disease, but surely then once fish are reintroduced the remaining few will rapidly multiply and kill the fish. Also how does leaving the tank empty have an effect on the nitrogen cycle. I have an anemone, coral and two Seastars in an 80 liter tank. Regards, AA.
wwm: The theory is that Whitespot, Velvet, and other ciliate parasites need a host to complete their life cycle. The free-living stage (the stage that doesn't need a host fish) can only live for a certain number of days depending on the water temperature -- typically a couple of days at tropical temperatures -- so if you leave the tank free of fish for, say, a month, there's practically no chance of free-living stages surviving. If you add healthy, parasite-free fish to that tank, they shouldn't catch Velvet or Whitespot. With this said, the problem is that many apparently healthy fish can carry low levels of parasites, and may even have some degree of acquired immunity (something not really understood in the realm of fish science). You can add these infected or carrier fish, and then look on in horror as your other fish come down with the parasite, or worse, the carrier fish get sick because something in their environment has suppressed their immunity (water quality problems for example). If you're leaving a tank to go fallow, you need to *also* treat/quarantine the fish in a hospital tank using standard medications. These medications would be toxic to corals, shrimps, etc., but that's not an issue here because they're kept in the fallow aquarium. Since there's livestock in the tank, you can maintain the filter bacteria by feeding these invertebrates, perhaps keeping the food input somewhat comparable to what you'd add if there were fish in there too. Shrimps and starfish will consume this surplus, and the filter bacteria couldn't care less whether the protein was eaten by fish or shrimp. If you reduce the food input dramatically downwards once the fish have been removed to the quarantine tank, there's a risk the filter bacteria population could die back a bit, but even at a low level of food input proportional to what invertebrates and corals would need, you'd still have a cycled filter with a ready ability to re-accommodate a population of fish if they were added carefully and with due diligence (feeding, water changes, ammonia/nitrite testing). Make sense?
Cheers, Neale.

Sick angelfish and a big thanks   2/21/12
Sorry to say that I am not writing under the best of circumstances but due to your website and everything you guys do I think our newly acquired French angelfish has a good chance of survival. So thank you so much for all of your efforts in helping all of us in this wonderful hobby.
Four days ago we purchased a 5 inch French angelfish.
<Mmm, border-line too large for initial aquarium use>

 She was alert, active, eating well, and even keeping a blue jaw trigger in line at the fish store. Not a single mark or torn fin so we brought her home and put her in a 55 gallon quarantine tank. The second and third days she looked great. No change in habits and was already coming up to the top to be fed. On the evening of the fourth day she developed spots of a whitish coating on her body and her breathing seemed to be up a little. I immediately turned to your site to research what may be the problem. After an hour of research she quit swimming and actually began to lay on her side on the bottom of the tank.
<Mmm, likely Velvet from your description>

I knew we had to do something quick. From the appearance of the spots and the quickness that it set in I figured we were dealing with velvet. We lowered the salinity from 1.020 to 1.019
<I'd drop immediately to much lower IF I were doing this... like 1.010>
 and added an additional wooden air stone to increase oxygen content in the water. We were hoping this would make it easier for the angel to breathe.
 We also removed all filter material and dosed the tank with CopperSafe.
<Mmm, hard on Angels; particularly ones that are already compromised health-wise>
 The copper level is currently at .20 to .25 ppm. During the first hour she was still laying on her side and things didn't look good. Then she decided to get up and swim around a little. Two hours into the treatment she is now sitting up but she is leaning on the side of the tank. All of the lights are out in an effort to make her comfortable enough to rest.
Her breathing is staying steady at about 105-110 breaths a minute. A little high but it is very steady. Hopefully a good sign.
Does it sound like we made the correct diagnosis? I would send a picture but I don't want to stress her tonight. Did we take the correct steps? Is there anything else we could or should do?
<Yes, yes, and yes. Read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/amylrealcures.htm
and the linked files above>
Thank you again. We are just starting the treatment process and she has a long way to go but without your site she wouldn't have had a chance.
P.S. We have a 210 gallon tank for her after the qt process is done.
<Thank you for sharing. Bob Fenner>

Marine velvet, 11/28/11
I have a question,
one of my customers bought a fish from someone and didn't do a quarantine and her fishes caught the marine velvet.
She lost a lot of fish only 3 are left, and they seam unaffected, they eat well and look good
<For the time being, they are infected, just have some level of immunity to keep it in check.>
The question : I know that this parasite will live 6 weeks in a system without a host if she keep the fishes in the aquarium, and wait 6 weeks without introducing an other fish and after 6 weeks the fishes that she have now never got the disease is the parasite gone?
Or do she really have to remove the fishes and let the tank go 6 weeks without any fish?
Can the fish still have the disease but without symptoms after 6 weeks?
<Yes and yes.>
Thank you for your help
I don't want to give her the wrong information
<This is why this disease is so problematic, it will often leave a few fish relatively unaffected, but still contagious for any new additions.  Also as soon as anything goes wrong with the tank or the fish themselves their lowered immune systems will allow the parasite to kill them.  Treat outside the tank and allow a minimum of 6 weeks fallow.  See here for more.  http://www.wetwebmedia.com/amylloodiniumart.htm .>
Re: Marine velvet 11/29/11

Thank you for the information.
But that leave me with one question :
The fish that have survive till now,  they are doomed?
<Most likely unless they are treated.>
They will ALWAYS carry this disease?
<Unless they are treated yes.>
If I tell her to remove them from the tank (that we leave the tank running without fish for 8 weeks)
and that we put the fishes in a hospital tank, and we feed them, or treat the hospital tank with Chloroquine phosphate would that remove the disease.
<If treated with an appropriate medicine in a hospital tank while the tank runs fallow you are most likely clear of the disease.>
Right now she have a 150gallons... so it's sure that eventually she will want more fish than the 3 survivors.
I need to know how this can be done or if the only wait it's to kill the fish that are left :( because they will always be a risk of giving this deadly disease.
Thank you for your time.
<There are never any guarantees but if properly treated most likely the disease will not be a continuing problem.>
Re: marine velvet 11/30/11

ok... an other question... the last one lol
if we feed the fishes food with Chloroquine phosphate, (the way they tell us to in the book : The marine fish health and feeding by Bob Goemans ,
<And Lance Ichinotsubo>
in theory the parasite wouldn't be able to stay on the fish... so by doing the treatment (every 3 days) for 6 weeks we would be able to let the fishes in the main tank and it would be like they would be no fish in it since the fishes would be treated what do you think?
<Better to move the fish elsewhere... to a treatment tank... leave the main/display empty of fishes, fallow for this period>
I'm just scare that by removing them to put them in an hospital tank, that they will stress and become sick giving us no time to treat when now they are ok and eat well
thank you
<Up to you... the CP is best whichever way applied. Cheers, BobF>

Marine Velvet Outbreak   9/11/11
First, I want to say THANK YOU for all of the great work you do . . .
Next, on to my issue. I have a 55-gallon tank that's been cycled since October of 2008. I have not added any new fish since Feb. 11th, 2011.
My tank WAS perfect until a few days ago when I noticed lethargy and flashing going on. Today I noticed my Ocellaris has velvet.
<Mmm, where did this come from? Amyloodinium rarely comes about from a "resting stage"... Almost always from an infested host/fish>
I also have an Oscillated Dragonet, who seems fine,
<Slimier... less susceptible>
a few snails, and a Chalk Bass who is at the top of the tank, breathing heavily, looks bad. I have absolutely no idea where the velvet came from and I guess it 'is what it is'.
<Mmm, food perhaps... anything wet can be a vector>
I've read everything I can find about treating velvet, and nothing sounds very promising other than moving all of the fish to a different tank, treating them with Chloroquine diphosphate, and leaving the display tank for 8 weeks.
<A good avenue>
My problem is this: I do not have a
quarantine tank setup (I know, bad, but it is what it is). I have another tank, which is empty and is only a 29-gallon. Should I set it up and move the fish,
<Yes I would>
then treat them? I don't have time, I know, to cycle it, etc.
<Just move the water from the existing tank...>
and I'm
thinking that they will probably not make it in there, especially if I can't move any gravel, etc. to help it cycle faster.
Should I treat the main tank with Chloroquine diphosphate?
<You could...>
I know this is not the best solution, but I am willing to try anything to save the fish.
I also don't have time to order the Chloroquine diphosphate online, I know. If I can't get a hold of any, is there anything else I can use that might work?
<... now we're getting into "third tier" choices... more dangerous, less likely of effecting cure... You could drop Spg precipitously (like to 1.010) and add (Chelated) copper to 0.15-0.2 ppm... and check twice daily for conc....>
My only other option is to let them die, wait the 8 weeks and start over. Obviously this is a very bad option - I've had the clown since 2008 when I started the tank.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance for your help,
*Shelly Neumann*
<Sayings re rocks and hard places come to mind. Do write back for more if you need, would like. Bob Fenner>
Re: Marine Velvet Outbreak   9/11.5/11

Mr. Fenner:
<Just Bob Shelly...>
First, as always, thank you SO much for all your wonderful help and for your very zippy response to my first email.
I do have a few more questions, though, if you don't mind? Actually, what I think I need is your "This is what I would do if I were you" take.
I wasn't able to procure either Chloroquine Diphosphate or Quinine Sulfate anywhere nearby, (tried 2 health food stores, Walgreens, RitAid, Petco, a saltwater guy in the next state, etc.)
<A common state of affairs at this point/time... Do see WWM re "sources" for such... likely will have to be ordered/expedited from an etailer... Or you'll have to go w/ another treatment>
I also called two vets and was told "we don't do fish." (They are ever so helpful - NOT!)
<Also the usual>
So, I decided to try your "third tier" choice. I've lowered the SG from 1.024 to 1.014 (not quite as far as you said, I know, but I can keep working on that) I didn't move the fish to the 29-gallon tank because there's really nothing in the tank to harm other than the snails.
<Mmm, yes...>
After doing that, the fish are still breathing about twice as fast as they should be, but seems to be feeling about 30% better than last night. The chalk bass is not at the top of the tank gasping anymore, but he is not swimming around much today and still has very labored breathing. I did read Steven Pro's article about using hyposalinity to cure parasites (ich mainly), but noticed it was written quite a few years ago, so I'm not sure if the info. there is current.
<It is indeed... another friend in the trade, Lance Ichinotsubo should get credit for his bold statements a few weeks back at the second fish health conference we have given talks at UNE... he professes to maintain his fish only service accounts at 1.010 spg. WITH a titer of free copper as I'd mention... on an ongoing basis... AND what is more, claims he can/has cured Brooklynellosis this way for many years, occasions... I am given to believe his statements, though I was incredulous at the time>
I am on the fence about using CopperSafe in the display tank (FO),
<Will kill the snails... I would go w/ Cupramine... will also kill non-fishes>
but I am worried about using this on the Oscillated Dragonet.
He is not showing any signs of being ill and I really don't want to kill him if I can help him. Being scaleless, I can't treat the tank with Copper at all, can I, without harming him?
<Will, does more malaffect Callionymids/oids as you surmise... but... I would still treat... on the low side... 0.15 ppm free cupric ion... DO see WWM or elsewhere re test kits for copper compounds>
Should I leave the SG as it is and order some Crypto-Pro and hope they survive until it gets here or use the CopperSafe?
<I would lower it still and use whatever source of Quinine... or copper you can get your hands on readily>
I think what they have must be ich as opposed to velvet, if velvet really kills fish in 12 hours or so. The clown is much more active today than he was yesterday, but still has some "white film" covering the front 1/3 or so of his body. His tail and fins and back end seem to be fine. I don't want to wait too long to medicate the fish, but I don't want to kill anybody, either, if I can save them. (obviously, rock and hard place DOES fit well here)
<Ah yes... BobF, bushed out here in Fiji, on the way down for a soak. Cheers>

Not A Happy Man!/Marine Velvet 6/13/2011
Dear sirs,
<Sirs?? We all work for a living here. :-) >
Firstly, thank you for a wonderful web site of information.
<You're welcome, Carl.>
After a few years out of the hobby and several kids later I decided to set up a small Nano 24g system. I have loads of live rock. I bought it from a guy selling off his stuff and let it cycle for a month . With a small refugium of Chaeto' algae. I then added the cuc,
<I would not place a Cuke in this volume of water.>
4 turbo snails, 2 small narcissus and a hermit. Ok to the point, post checking all the water parameters were ok, I added a pair of true percula clowns a few weeks later. Perfect little critters and for 3 weeks, Nothing amiss.... Then, boom. Flippin marine velvet, Amyloodinium. All water conditions were happy days. Yes I know, I didn't QT, so I suppose had it coming. Fortunately they were the only fish in the system. Alas, I do not have room for another tank. Hence the Nano and lack of QT. I tried the fresh water dip, prob a day too late and sadly, they died shortly after (I did follow all procedures re temp and pH). My main question, how long will it take the tank to cycle out any remaining parasites minus fish? I take it that they cannot survive on a cleaner shrimp / coral / aforementioned snails? I have read 6 weeks to be on the safe side? I have Duncan coral, sun coral and a small Blastomussa wellsi. Will the inhabitants be enough to keep the tank cycle going for 6 weeks before I add more fish?
<Should be fine as long as the crabs and shrimp are fed.>
I don't suppose there is anyway around QT.
<A fresh water dip before introduction can be very helpful depending on the type of fish you want to dip/introduce.>
I'll have to think of where to put one! I hope the boss allows it..... Your thoughts and comments much appreciated.
<Regarding marine velvet, the info you seek can be found here.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/amylloodiniumart.htm James (Salty Dog)>>
Kind regards, Carl.
Re Not A Happy Man!/Marine Velvet   6/13/2011
Hi there!
<Hello Carl.>
Many thanks for the reply.
<You're welcome.>
I meant clean up crew as opposed to cucumber (Cuke). 6 weeks with no fish!
<Ah, better yet.>
Still, worth it to get rid of the parasites.
<Have you read where the link took you?>
Thanks again,
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)
Re Not A Happy Man!/Marine Velvet   6/13/2011

Yes, I had a look, very helpful thank you.
<You're welcome.>
I think I'm going to have to find room for QT. Can you call the Mrs. and tell her I need 2 tanks?!?
<Certainly. We'll do a conference call and you can tell my Mrs. that I need a 220 gallon tank.>
I'm not brave enough!
<A couple of hits of Jack Daniels should make you much braver.>
Just kidding of course. Thanks again. Hopefully I'll have some nicer questions down the line. Kind regards, Carl.
Good luck with the Mrs., Carl. James (Salty Dog)>

Re: re: Hey all..... Velvet rereredux    1/30/11
Hey Bob, following up with you. So I'm about a week into the "fallow period " and I lost 2 out of 5 fish due to velvet. The last 3 are a small 3" batfish, a 2" flame angel and a 3.5" hippo tang being treated with QS in a 20gal long. Do you have better feelings about just theses 3 fish in this 20gal for the full "fallow period "?
<Just have to be watchful, have plenty of new water for change outs...>
I am kind of concerned they're not going to make it this long in such a small tank. Ammonia and nitrite are 0 and Ph is around 8.
<Ah, good>
I've had this tank running for over 6 months with the year "seasoned" water from my main tank. With daily water changes and levels in check, do you feel these fish will stay healthy? I feed every other day.
<I do hope so. Cheers, B>
Re: re: Hey all.....

Bob, seriously thanks again. Your assistance and advice gives me the hope and motivation that I need to keep things going and keep a positive attitude.
<Ah, very good.>
Enjoy the remainder of the little bit of weekend you have left.
<Have a few more hours to catch up on WWM... Cheers! B>

Re: 08/03/10 Still confused.... Quarantine tanks... Velvet, Fallow period interval percentage success guesses    3/11/10
<Hi Jason>
OK, sounds good. Now my question to you is: Bob states in his literature that no remedy for Velvet is 100% effective, what are my chances of the Velvet parasite being killed off or eradicated after a full 8 weeks fallow time?
<Mmm...the longer you leave it, the better the chance. The most likely outcome is that 99.9% of the parasites will have died off, and a small number remain. By removing this 99% you reduce the numbers down to a level that is tolerable by the fishes, who may have some acquired immunity, and good care from now on re: their health, not overstocking your tank, reducing stress as much as possible will see you through. This is certainly the case with the very similar parasite Crypt, where REALLY long periods (3 months or more) would sometimes be needed to get completely rid. Impractical for most people and fishes. The other thing is, nobody really knows if you are completely 'rid' or not, since a combination of low virulence and healthy fishes will exhibit no outward signs at all. This reminds me of this: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/7/aaeditorial >.
I had a SEVERE case of velvet about two months ago and I am just worried that it's still living inside the tank (in the sand bed of 2.5" and within the 55lbs. of live rock in the tank).
<Could be. Once in, these parasites are so difficult to get out. This is one reason why when setting up a new system it should always be left for at least three months before fishes are added. Then, if the fishes are quarantined correctly before introduction, these problems can be avoided. My protocol at the moment is prophylactic treating with Chloroquine Phosphate>
If you had to surmise the probability in percentage that the Velvet is no longer alive in my tank, what would that percentage be? Or.....the odds, if you will?
<I am no scientist, Jason, and my guess would be just that - a guess. What is working in your favour however, is the fact that these parasites have been battled by many aquarists over the years and it seems that 8 weeks is the general consensus for 'about the right' amount of time>.
Once again, thanks
<No problem, Simon>

SW med. reading, BFs, Velvet, Copper  -- 01/30/10
Hi everyone
Hi again guys lol. Ok, so I am in the middle of a two month fallow period in my 90gal tank due to a velvet outbreak. I currently have my 3..5" Heniochus in a ten gallon
QT tank with a penguin 150 HOB power filter a heater and some sand in a pouch from my main tank to avoid a level spike (or at least help with it). I have medium amount of circulation and an airstone for oxygen. I just made the first dose of Cupramine.
<... I would not expose these, or most other Chaetodontids to copper... Look into/use a Quinine compound instead. Read here:
Now, the label says to dose this for two weeks
<Not w/o testing for free copper daily>
and your good to go (if no signs of spots or symptoms), but do you think this is long enough?
<I suggest you read re Cu use on WWM>
I know for a face there is velvet in the water because it's the same water that was from my display tank. If not two weeks, what amount of time do you feel is safe enough to say the fish is free of velvet and can be placed back into the display? And, how do you feel about the "Prime" product by Seachem just in case I run into problems with ammonia and water changes aren't completely
cutting it?
<Start here: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
scroll down... Bob Fenner>
Re more SW dis. w/o reading  1/30/10

Ok thanks Bob. Is there anywhere unparticular that you recommend I purchase Quinine Sulfate from?
<Please read where you were referred to. Sources are listed there. B>
I can't find much online and for a reasonable price at that. And is the success rate with killing velvet as good as that of Copper?
<And this...>

30/01/2010 Velvet & Quinine   1/31/2010
Hi everyone
<Hello Jason>
I am reading now......only thing is I can't find the answer to my one question.......can I use Quinine Sulfate in my display tank and kill off the Velvet?
<It is not likely to work. The presence of substrate can affect the med, and the lifecycle of the parasite means that it will still be in your system when treatment finishes. This is best done in a QT setting. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/amylloodiniumart.htm>
It says it does not kill beneficial bacteria.
<Does not, but neither is it likely to the job you want it to here. Simon>.
Re: 30/01/2010 Velvet & Quinine 2/1/2010

Ok Simon, thanks for responding. So since the life cycle is so long with Velvet, how long shall I QT for in order to be sure that the life cycle is complete?
<Have you read where you were referred? 8 weeks 'fallow' time>
If the Quinine doesn't get absorbed (hence bare bottom tank), will it work faster?
<No, this will take 8 weeks, although the treatment period is not this long. Please read: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm>.
Also, I have a lil nylon bag of sand from my main tank in my QT tank to add some beneficial bacteria and help with suppress a new cycle and level spikes. Will that be enough to absorb the Quinine?
<Mmmm, maybe. Maybe not. I would not use this, it may well harbour some parasites as well as absorb the med. Instead I would use some bacteria-in-a-bottle to seed some inert sponges in a filter>.
Or does it have to be a full sand bed in order to absorb it?
<To my knowledge there is no data on this. If there is, or if any of the crew knows more here I am sure they will chip in>.
Re: 08/02/10 Re: Velvet & Quinine

<Hello again Jason>
Wow that was fast.......lol.
<I was online... Now it is a bleary eyed morning!>
Ok sounds good, I will be in touch with you. I just tested ammonia and I'm at almost zero but nitrite are between 0 and .25ppm.
<This will be ok, keep at it>
So I guess I'm nearing the end of the mini cycle. Which bottled bacteria do you feel is the most effective?
<I've used a couple and found Hagen's Cycle to be the best, but there are many I have not tried at all>
And do you like Nite-out?
<I am not familiar w/ the product>
If the bio rings did have encysted parasites the Quinine would still kill them correct?
<No, it won't. If it did then no-one would ever use anything else. To my knowledge there is no chemical that will kill these and not kill everything else, my understanding is that all act on the free swimmers. You will probably be ok here though, but if you are nervous (like me) I would put some inert sponge in a filter in the QT and gradually remove the bio rings bit by bit once you have the ammonia under control, and before you finish the treatment course>
And would the Quinine be just as effective when just treating the water in a QT with no fish?
<? why would you want to do this? You mean in your display sans fish? No.>
All these questions I know.......sorry.
<No problem>
Thanks Simon
Re: 08/02/10 Re: Velvet & Quinine  2/10/10

Hey Simon,
<Hello Jason>
You are of MUCH help in this process, I really appreciate it.
<No problem, but do remember - these problems are of your own making from the lack of use of a QT tank before you add fishes to your display>
To follow up on the last email you sent over to me.....I was referring to treating my QT tank (NOT display tank) with Quinine before I added fish,
<? You mean you have not already acted? I'm scrolling down here and it seems this has been going on for a month. If you suspected Velvet then you should have acted and separated the fishes immediately as James initially advised. I am confused here.. are you purchasing new fish when you have a parasitised system?>
what do you think?
<I would medicate the QT first and then add the fish after, if it was Velvet.... but I suspect since the amount of time this has been going on now (a month) that what you have is actually Cryptocaryon... either way the treatment is the same>
I want to try to kill a lot of the parasites so I don't have to put the new fish into so much stress.
<Mmmm, these will drop off and die in the med. anyway after a few days - most of the stress will come from general QT tank conditions over time>
Also, the directions to the Quinine Sulphate are VERY vague. It says....."Dose 1/4 teaspoon every 24 hours with 25% water changes before each dose....". So how long shall I treat this for?
<Please read here, there is plenty of info that can help you: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm>
Shall I dose daily for a week, for ten days? What do you think? And, unfortunately I just added a Heniochus in my QT and it has Velvet already.
I started treatment with the Quinine the SAME day I noticed spots on the fish, will the Quinine act quickly enough? Is it a fast acting medication or does it take several days?
<Please read/ learn the lifecycle of this parasite Jason, it is the key to successful treatment and you have been referred to it several times. It is virtually identical to Marine Ich, Cryptocaryon>
Thanks again
<No Problem>
Simon.....your AWESOME!!!
Re: 09/02/10 Re: Velvet & Quinine

<Hello Jason>
Yes I have been referred to several different links and web pages but I am not exactly a pro at this and I am thinking of so many different things.......I lose track.
<Hmmm, ok - some clear thinking is needed here>
Simon, I have had the Heniochus and I have three other fish that a friend is holding for me. The Heniochus already had velvet and I had treated my QT with Quinine prior to putting him in the QT.
<Ok, this is the right way to go>
I must ask though, my Heniochus' spots of velvet went away after one dosage
<No, this is where the understanding must come in.. the spots went away because they dropped off of their own accord, NOT because of the Quinine>
BUT he is breathing rather fast, is this the Quinine or parasites?
<Heavy breathing is a strong indicator of this parasite. The gills have the thinnest skin membrane, and water is passing through them continually, so it is logical that this is the first, last and most likely place for the parasites to attach. Makes breathing difficult.>
Does the Quinine stress fish out slightly? Like make them act a little weird, breathe fast and swimming oddly?
<Yes it will stress the fish a little, but these are also symptoms of ammonia poisoning, particularly the odd swimming combined with heavy breathing. There could easily be a combination of factors at work here, including parasitization>
He greets me when I come over to the tank but he remains stationary in one spot toward the bottom. He ate like a PIG yesterday and today he doesn't eat at all (AFTER I dose with Quinine). Is it normal for fish to lose their appetites when treating with Quinine?
<Loss of appetite as well? This sounds like ammonia to me. Are you testing for this daily?>
Does any of this sound peculiar or does this sound "normal" with the treatment of this med?
<If it was just the med he would not show these symptoms. There are other factors at work here. I think you need to stay with this Jason, if he ate yesterday then you don't need to feed him for a couple of days. Monitor the ammonia/ nitrite carefully, daily and act to reduce it if you have to. Keep the quinine dosed. I am worried for this fish here...the signs are not good... but he should improve rapidly as the parasites drop off IF ammonia is under control. I am still confused though... you state more than 10 days ago you had three Heniochus in a 10 gallon, yet you have only just placed one now? What size is the present QT tank? Where are the other two? And the Chaetodon Ulietensis? These are with your friend? These are also parasitised remember. I fear this has been going on too long...how far into the 8 week fallow period are you?? You should be about half way..>
<Jason, you need to collect your thoughts and think clearly. Write it all down if you can, what went where and when you did what. Simon>
Re: 09/02/10 Re: NOT Velvet & Quinine

WHOA!!!! Simon I really appreciate your help, but I'm already nervous and you are making me worse lol.
I have never stated that I had three Heniochus, always one.
<Mmm, no, unless you are not communicating effectively>
I have a few fish with my friend but he is treating those already so I left them there for a bit.
The False Double Saddle Butterfly I never purchased because when I went back to the store, only one gill was moving.
<Good move, especially since your current system is parasitised>
I have a 2" Heniochus in a ten gallon tank and I have zero Ammonia but I do have less than .25 ppm of nitrite but you stated in a previous email that it was ok (use live bacteria and/or water changes).
<Should be, yes, but these are sensitive fishes...maybe he is feeling this>
So, to think clearly here and critique everything, my salt level is at about .019, my ammonia is zero (I check daily, sometimes twice a day), nitrite is just below .25ppm, my temp is around 78 and my ph is at 7.8 (been using a pinch a day of baking soda to higher this to 8), and I have an airstone running.
<Mmmm, ok, assuming your salinity is 1.019, although a little low I would not be changing this yet>
The Heniochus' swimming pattern has changed to a much less jerky
motion and fins are raised up high.
<Ok, he should improve daily as the parasites leave his body>
I now see more velvet sprinkles on him and just dosed my second dose of Quinine. Unfortunately I am not even half way with my fallow period. My tank went "fishless" on January 20th. How long does the Quinine normally take to take effect?
<No, you are not understanding this... the quinine is effective immediately... it prevents the fish from becoming re-infected by parasites, so that once the parasites that are on the fish host leave, there will be no new parasites attaching due to the quinine. This is how it works.>
And please let me know what other things I can do at all to improve this.
<You are doing all you can here Jason, the only thing you could do better now would be to purchase a larger QT tank. My choice would be to get one, set it up over the next few days with clean, new saltwater, clean dry sponge in a filter, cycle it with some bottled bacteria & a little flake food and when the treatment period is over in the 10 gallon move the fish right over to the new tank and sterilise or dry out the 10g and all the filters etc. This way there will be no chance of a reinfection from any lingering cysts anywhere>
I have followed the internet faithfully along with the forums and WWM but it just feels reassuring/comforting to speak with a live person with experience.
<No problem, I do think this fish will benefit from a larger tank for the full fallow period here, and you need a larger one going forward anyway as I assume that from now on all new additions will be quarantined?>
Thanks again
<No problem Jason, Simon.> 
Re: 09/02/10 Re: Velvet & Quinine 2/11/10

Ok great, that just answered all of my questions. I feel better now.
<Well, that's marvelous (marvelous B?) news!!><<One "L">>
I am still concerned about my Heniochus though,
<Yes, I would be too. It is always concerning to have fishes in small QT tanks under treatment>
his breathing is definitely at a slower rate but he is just acting "weird".
<So he's improved. This should continue over the next few days assuming he has not had too much stress>
I can't explain it but he's alert and fins are spread and he's swimming, he just has no appetite and doesn't search for anything in the tank (like algae or any types of food) just like butterflies normally do all day.
<Lets be honest here Jason, there's not much room for him to go swimming around in a 10g is there?>
He kind of just stays close to the bottom and swims a little bit.
<Yes, typical>
His fins are also blurry looking, no spots just filmy. Could any of this be from the Quinine? Or is he dying on me?
<It sounds like he has calmed down a bit. Keep monitoring. Simon> 
Re: 09/02/10 Re: Velvet & Quinine

<Hi Jason>
Ok, I check ammonia and nitrite everyday and add live bacteria also. But I asked in the previous email what the blurry fins are from? Is it velvet again or from Quinine?
<Not from Quinine. Could be velvet, or the fins might have a different appearance in the Qt tank under ambient lighting>
Also Simon, I can't find anywhere in the forums about how long to treat Quinine for. It says 1/4 teaspoon per ten gallons every 24 hours with 25% water changes before each treatment. But how long do I do this for, a week? <Not long enough> Ten days?
<This... to two weeks if the fish appears to be able to 'take it'>
Or just until I notice that the fish is clear of symptoms and spots?
<Should be clear after a week or so, if not..... then a new course of action will be required.... not good>
I called National Fish Pharm and they gave two different answers, one person said ten days, the other said 7 days. I figured I would just treat as needed upon seeing rapid gill movement, flashing, spots, etc. What is your recommendation?
I like your advice, but I think you know that by now with these relentless emails lol!
<It's Ok Jason, no problem. Simon> 

Trying to save my clown (trigger): SW Velvet. Disease identification and treatment. 7/31/2009
<Hi Don.>
You have a wonderful website with a great deal of great information.
<Thank you.>
I have a 165-gallon tank that has been up for 3 months. We have 1 clown trigger (4 inches), 1 nigger trigger (3 inches), 1 yellow tang (5 inches), 1 blue hippo tang (4 inches), 1 raccoon butterfly (4 inches), 1 yellow head goby, and 1 dragon goby (both 3 inches).
The water measurements are ph 8.2, ammonia 0.00, nitrates .20, nitrites 0.00, and hydrometer reads 1.022. The temperature of the tank ranges from 78.9 to 80.9. The tank has live rock and sand. We also have a 65 gallon tank that had been up for a year.
<Don, Thank you for providing these details. Also, while everybody gets along now and everyone 'fits' in this tank, you are likely to have some behavioral problems down the road.>
Yesterday my powder brown tang looked like it had swam through a snow storm. It started swim in small circles and refused to eat dinner.
Within about an hour he was dead.
<That is fast - too fast for Crypt. How long did you have this fish, how long was it quarantined, and how was it behaving recently?>
This is the first fish that we have ever had that has died. I had just did a 35 gallon water change the day before and moved the direction of one of my powerheads more at the rocks. I buy saltwater from my LFS same place I have been using the last year.
<Not likely a contributing factor.>
This morning it took a long time for our clown to come out of his cave.
When he did we noticed some real light white spots on him similar to those on the powder brown.
<Spots or bumps?>
He ate excellent this morning and we kept the lights off after the feeding.
At the dinner feeding the spots are still there and he ate excellent again. He appears to be swimming fine.
All of the other fish in the tank appear fine and there are no signs of white spots on any of them. They all are eating well and swimming as normal.
Could this be ich or what?
<Based on what you are telling me, it is possible, that or Amyloodinium.>
<Read here for descriptions and pictures that can help you identify the disease and treatment options:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/clndisood.htm  (Deals with clownfish, but good pictures.>
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm  >
I am at a loss, since it is now on my clown. Everything I have says tangs are walking ich carriers but very little on clowns. Any help and advice would be great.
<Do read above the linked articles above and see if you can determine the disease..>
Thank you,
Re: Trying to save my clown (trigger): SW Velvet. Disease identification and treatment. 8/3/2009

<Hi Don.>
Thank you for the very informative links. After spending almost all of Friday reading thru your website and every link on Google, we would agree we have VELVET.
<Need to treat and treat fast.>
So we went to our LFS and bought something they said works well and they run in their tanks called Copper Power.
<Ok, do realize that you need to use copper long term for it to be effective against this disease. It will get it off of the fish, but not kill it in your system.>
When we got home it was about noon and our clown trigger still hadn't showed up. We truly believed he was dead since he missed the morning feeding and we couldn't locate him anywhere.
Our QT tank is only 20 gallons and at this point now the raccoon butterfly, hippo tang, and Niger trigger, all were showing signs of this powder across their bodies. The raccoon looked by far the worst. As I stated we have a FOWLR tank and getting these guys out would have created a huge stress and we have no doubt would have pushed the raccoon over the edge. We still knew we were going to have to located the clown trigger body and remove it before it started messing up the water. We decided to treat the fish in the main tank hoping to stabilize them and possibly get them back on a road to recovery.
<Ouch!. This is going to kill any invertebrates as well as your live rock.>
This may have been a dumb thing to do but we felt it was like trying to stabilize an accident victim before moving them, so they don't die on the way to the hospital. This may have been flawed logic on our part, but I just didn't want anymore lose of life.
If they start looking better in a week or two should we move them to the QT and treat again?
<Treatments are best in a QT tank, as the tank has been 'nuked' at this point, start watching your ammonia levels - the copper will kill off your biological filter as well..
About four hours after the treatment of Copper Power to the main tank the clown trigger appeared. He still was covered with the white powder looking stuff but was swimming around. We were filled with joy and felt some sort of huge victory.
<Copper starting to work.>
Since the clown trigger didn't get breakfast we fed the fish again a small amount of food and all of them had great appetites. As the evening went on we noticed the raccoon and clown trigger going to the top by the overflow looking like they were trying to get more air.
<Gill damage from the velvet.>
So I adjusted the power head on the opposite site of the tank completely upwards to create a large break in the surface. I also add a 12inch air stone to the other side of the tank. We had also unplugged the main display light to keep the tank darker.
At 9:00 PM we fed them again and all of the fish ate. It appeared about 15 min.s after eating all of the fish retired for the night.
This morning at 9:00 AM we did a count and couldn't find clown again.
We lifted the lid to the tank and got all of the food out and ready.
About 15 minutes into this the Clown showed up. From where we still don't know. We then fed the fish. The sad thing in this time the clown or raccoon didn't eat. The raccoon still is covered with the spots and now is hanging out next to the air stone and the clown went locked into a rock facing the bottom if the tank. We are seeing very little movement from these two as I write this.
<Not a good sign. Velvet does kill quickly.>
The other fish are swimming and ate well. The gobies still have not appeared yet, but they usually don't until the light comes on.
The tank is dark, temp is holding at 82.9, the salinity is 1.022, water circulation is good, and I added about 2 gallons of r/o to sump this morning since it was low.
Did I create more trouble by treating the main tank and where should I go from here?
<Well, it didn't help - all of your live rock is now dead or dying.>
How long until we should see signs of improvement?
Can take a while, velvet infests the gills long before you see signs on the fish itself.>
Can velvet be killed by not leaving the tank without fish for 6 weeks and just treating with copper for that long? Or does that just create
stronger velvet?
<Copper is good for getting the velvet off of the fish, but it will not kill it in the tank unless you continuously dose for weeks. Chloroquine diphosphate is a much better solution. Try http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/ >
Thank you again for your great articles and willingness to help. Once we get through this no fish will ever go in any of my tanks without at least a 5-week QT.
<Sadly, it usually takes a lesson such as this.>
Thanks again,
Re: Trying to save my clown 8:00 PM update part 2 8/3/2009

<Hi Don, Sorry for the delay in writing back, had a minor catastrophe at my house as well.>
Good evening Mike. I just wanted to give you an update and ask for advice.
All today we kept the lights off in the tank. Since this morning the clown trigger remained in the rock face down and never moved. We also cover the tank with towels to keep it as dark as possible. At about 6:00 PM we fed the fish again, the raccoon butterfly ate really well this time.
<A good sign.>
After the food had been in the tank for about 2 minutes the clown trigger started moving and slowly came out of the rock. So we added some omega brine shrimp so the clown could have the opportunity to eat. He did start eating and appeared really hungry so we added some more food and he ate that also. He had a really good meal. He swam around for about 15 -- 20 minutes and went back to the rock he was in all day and positioned himself facing the bottom of the tank again.
<Good sign that he is eating. It will take a while for him to heal.>
At 8:00 PM we used a flashlight to check on him and he is breathing very slowly. He doesn't appear to be laboring. While he was out swimming and eating it appeared some of the dust or white that was on is body was gone and in its place was what looked like a sore or an abrasion.
<Yes, do watch for secondary infections.>
Also when he went to the restroom his waste was white and stringy. He relieved himself twice and both time the waste looked the same. In the four months we have owned him this is the first time I have seen him poop.
<Likely because you hare hyper-aware of his health.>
After spending the majority of the day next to the air stone bubbles the raccoon butterfly is now actively swimming around and picking at the rocks. All of the other fish appear to be doing well and are eating at each feeding.
The tank is dark, two air stones now in the tank, circulation good, temp 83.7, salinity 1.023.
What else should we be doing?
<Watch for ammonia, I am expecting your tank to cycle again.>
Thanks again for all of your help.

Marine velvet present after 9 weeks? 6/13/09
Hello everyone. I had a break-out of Marine Velvet 9 weeks ago. I followed all of your wise advice as far as QT'ing, treating fish, allowing the tank to run fallow. Fish are great,
ready to go back home now to the main tank. The siphon used for emergency water draining during the velvet breakout has not been in any water for 9 weeks now. I am about to do a couple of water changes over the next 2-3 weeks before adding fish back in.
I want to be as far away from that horrific velvet life-cycle as possible, so I've decided to wait a little longer before adding them back in.
My question now is, "Is it safe to use that same siphon for water changes now?" I have thrown out all old nets, buckets, jugs, rags, measuring instruments, etc....from before, so only this siphon remains. From reading your articles, I have learned that the virus is spread by anything wet while still in an active life-cycle state.
<Actually not a virus but a parasite, Amyloodinium ocellatum .>
After 9 weeks dry, will I resurrect them again by getting it wet?
<No, but if it makes you feel better a soaking in a mild bleach solution followed by thorough rinsing will sterilize it.>
Thanks in advance for your guidance.
Re: Marine velvet present after 9 weeks? 6/15/09

Excellent, thank you Chris.
And a parasite, not a virus?
<A Dinoflagellate protozoa.>
With all of my reading your site, I still learn something new on a regular basis!
<Me too.>
I'll surely soak it in a mild bleach bath first, as it would indeed make me feel much better about using it.
Peace to you.
Re: marine velvet...? No data again...    3/14/09

Hi again crew continuing with the problem as before I had a really good clean of my tank lowered the water by half and gradually increased it till I have got the tank back to the usual level with doing small changes between, the fish were great and seemed to have no problems, and levels remained balanced. About five days ago my female Bluethroat started twitching slightly and she was going in amongst the other fish at feeding but not actually taking any food, yesterday morning I found her on the bottom just resting against the rocks, it's as if she his paralyzed, I gave her a slight push with the net and she moves along then just drops back to the rocks, now my male as started the twitching very slightly and also is going up to feed but not taking anything, he also on the last feed last night went erratic in the tank and actually jumped out the water, he is still swimming around with the other fish but obviously I'm very concerned. My tobacco Basslet don't seem is usual self either.
Thanks again for your time and advice
<Mmmm... Simon... need data to help you... This list of symptoms tells me nothing... other than that your fishes are obviously not doing well... What re your water quality tests? BobF>
Re: marine velvet... not... all would be dead   3/15/09

Hi Bob my water test are as follows
gravity is 1.026
ammonia 0
nitrate 40 at most
<Way too high... please see WWM Re>
KH 7
ph 8.1
po4 .1
Ca 380
Cu 0
No2 0
Mg 12
<... no>
I'm thinking this is more bacterial
as my water as always remained quite stable. I use a sera aqua test kit that is about 6 months old and still in date.
<Please... read on WWM re the above notes... Don't write... instead read.

Attacking Amyloodinium  11/16/08 Greetings, I hope that you are able to assist me with this problem. <Will try! Scott F. in today!> I have a medium-sized female Maroon Clownfish that I believe has been inflicted with velvet. I plan on removing this fish from the display tank ASAP, and putting her into a quarantine tank for treatment. My question is, what is the best way to treat her? <Good strategy; you certainly want to treat the fish in a separate system. This is one of the most virulent diseases that you can encounter, and needs to be attacked quickly and decisively. The really bad news about this disease is that you often can't identify it until it's too late...AND, it is VERY contagious! Any other tankmates of the infected fish should be considered potentially infected themselves, and treatment will most likely be required. I would utilize copper sulphate (per manufacturer's instructions), or possibly formalin-based treatment.> I have non-chelated copper, an organic fungal medication by Kordon, Rid-Ick by Kordon, Methylene blue, and that's about it for what I have on hand and unfortunately, I am unable to get to a suitable pet shop that would carry more Marine Fish medications. <Go with the copper...Be sure to monitor it with a test kit to assure that you're keeping a proper therapeutic dose. Don't deviate from the manufacturer's instructions, or the "collateral damage" could be worse than the cure!> I will greatly appreciate any suggestions you may offer. I am very partial to this fish. <Act decisively and be sure to monitor your fishes progress regularly during the treatment process! Best of luck to you! Regards, Scott F.>

Marine velvet in new tank, 8/13/08 I am new to the reef aquarium hobby. <Welcome to the club.> I will give you our tank's specs. We have a 90 gallon tank, 30 gallon sump, precision marine RL-150 needle wheel skimmer, GenX p40 external pump, 140 pound of cured live rock, 2-250MH,2-VHO actinics. Our tank is about 4 months old. We started off slow w/ a total of 3 dozen hermit crabs and snails. Next we added 2 true percula clowns, and in a couple of weeks, we added a small Christmas wrasse and a coral beauty. <Ok> Our LFS guy (who set up our tank for us) kept telling us that our tank and live rock could handle this load. <Should be fine.> He also does not believe in quarantine tanks, since he does not sell sick fish! <Oh boy, I would find a new guy, or at least ignore his advice here. Everyone sells sick fish at times, and QTing is not only about disease, but allows fish to acclimate to captive life, foods, without interference from tankmates. I highly suggest setting up a QT.> Our tank did handle this with no problem, ammonia/nitrite/nitrate all 0, salinity 1.025, pH 8.1-3, alk around 14 dKH ( he likes to keep the alk high and does not like to check calcium). <Oh boy, check the calcium yourself, in fact here I would probably take over all maintenance of this tank, this guy does not inspire confidence.> We add B-ionic A/B mix and when I test our calcium, it is normally around 310. <Good that your testing yourself.> Next we added a blue throated trigger and some frogspawns and torch corals without a problem. Then we added a magnificent Foxface Rabbitfish and a bubble tip anemone a couple weeks later. <I would suggest skipping the anemone, they are very fragile, not really for beginners, and can be very problematic when combined with corals.> Everything was going well. We would get a small ammonia spike to 0.1, but only for a day. So we got greedy, and tried to add a pair of swallow tail angelfish (Genicanthus melanospilos) after the LFS guy said it should be fine. <You may run into problems here with the Coral Beauty.> The male angelfish would not eat for a week and would only hide in a cave. The female came out and starting eating after a few days. The trigger fish did bully the male angel for the first day, but then left him alone. After a week, the male was covered in white dust and started swimming toward the surface, and then finally died. This started a chain reaction with the other fish which I assume is the contagious part of marine velvet. <Yes> The other angel and the trigger both died. The Rabbitfish is covered in black spots, but still swimming. Our ammonia did spike to 0.4, and we did a 5 gallon water change. Our LFS guy does not like water changes in reef tanks. <What? Find a new guy ASAP, "the solution to pollution is dilution". Water changes are key to success. 10% weekly is ideal, biweekly is acceptable.> We did 3 days of rally reef product, since we can not add copper to our reef tank. <I would not add this stuff either, a couple of antiseptic products combined with formalin, definitely not reef safe, nor a particularly effective way to treat the parasites.> Now to my questions. Everything that I read about this marine velvet is that it is very contagious and leads to a rapid death. <Yep.> Our LFS guy is telling me to leave the fish that are still alive in the tank and let them ride this out. <!> I feel like I should remove the remaining fish and put in a quarantine tank and let the display tank sit for 6 weeks with just the coral and crabs and treat the quarantine tank with copper. <Yes, absolutely, and good for you to not follow blindly, learn and improve the situation. This will serve you well in this hobby.> He says the fish that have survived will be stronger and be OK. <A few may survive, but the tank is still infested and any new additions will likely suffer.> I also asked about fresh water dips, and he says don't do it, since it will probably kill an already stressed out fish. <Unlikely if the fresh water is pH adjusted, oxygenated, and temperature matched to the main tank.> My other question is how do I know that the fish in the tank are not just carriers of the organism and say in 6 weeks when I try to add new fish that they will not get sick too. <If you treat the fish in the QT with appropriate medication you can be fairly confident that they will be disease free. So when you add them back to the main tank they do not bring back the parasite.> I am so confused, but I don't want to lose the rest of my fish or the coral. Thanks for any advice. Sorry for the long email. MM <If you have not, take a look here for treatment and more on velvet. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/amylloodiniumart.htm .> <Chris>
Re: Velvet Treatment  8/6/07
Mr. Fenner Thank you for responding on a Sunday. So copper is of no use for velvet? <Generally not... you did not read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/amylloodiniumart.htm and the linked files above> That contradicts everything I have read beyond your site. <Ah, not all that is known...> From what I have read on your site I will be best off just with freshwater dips twice a day with Methylene blue and put fish in a parasite free setting for 15 days before adding to tank. <...> I will leave tank vacant for 30 days with a UV going. Is this a good course and the only course. Im not second guessing but peteducation.com says copper is the only treatment. Another says formalin 3. Another says there is no cure. It is so easy to get lost in this. Thanks for all your input. Rick <Have just skipped down. Please, read the above citation. RMF>
Re: Velvet Treatment  8/6/07
<...> Not sure what this means? Thanks <Indicative of ennui, dissatisfaction, amazement...>
Re: Velvet Treatment  8/6/07
Mr. Fenner Please read this on the link you wrote for me to read here is the treatment that it says---Formalin exposure (100-200 mg/l aka ppm.) for 6-9 hours will result in the shedding of trophonts... but unless some efficacious treatment is continued these will later develop dinospores and re-infest the fish-hosts. Re-examination of hosts is required... Then on the dip link you told me to read it contradicts- 4) Formalin and formalin/malachite solutions are probably too dangerous and may well be disallowed by law in your area, they are in California. These cross-link peptides indiscriminately, destroying any and all proteins they come in contact with. In a very real sense, you're poisoning the "good guys" as well as the "bad". Hopefully the latter faster than the former. Due to their narrow range of safety, toxicity to livestock and handler, and legal constraints, I would avoid formalin mixtures for pet-fish applications. Malachite green, zinc-free is no longer even used at most government labs and fish hatcheries. <From the general to the more specific... I do agree, adhere to both statements> Now on Methylene blue you say on your site-- Most promisingly as a preventative... against fungal and bacterial action on freshwater fish eggs. Though sometimes suggested as a treatment for ich, velvet, Cryptocaryon, Amyloodinium, other protozoa, monogenetic Trematodes... there are far more useful medicines for actual treatment of these pathogens. <The key words here are "sometimes, suggested"... Not by myself> You not understanding why Im a little confused by your advice and not seeing the contradictions in your site leaves me <...> <...> <...> <...> <...> <...> <...> <...> <...> <...> ten fold. <Is it possible to state exactly what one means? I do appreciate the opportunity/challenge to be more clear...> There is no shame not knowing how to treat this. It seems to me your just writing what others have tried. <And... many times myself... Most of the times w/o success... Caught too late... not economically justifiable to treat... Returning organisms to the sea (where collected), or destroying all, using a biocide (generally bleach) to start anew...> A simple answer would have been fine like others members of the WetWebMedia crew do instead of sending them off to wetwebcontradictions to read for hours while there fish are dying. My treatment seems to be working. <Ah, good> If I it works no thanks to you I will send you my results and you can post them and then give the link to other people who ask about curing velvet. Your site has grown so big all you need is a simple page with what steps to take to treat things like velvet. But I guess you have to know 1st. But hey your a hell of spell checker. Thank You Rick <I wish you well, and your fish livestock... I STRONGLY suggest you attempt to compile such articles... that are accurate, significant and useful... With a bit of studying, say on this one pathogenic agent, I am very sure you will come to about the same place I am... in a few decades. BobF>

Amyloodiniumiasis  8/6/07 Hi Bob <Angela> I hope you don't mind me contacting you directly, but you have given me such good advice in the past, which I have followed. I have a question about your article about Amyloodiniumiasis entitled " Coral Reef or Velvet Disease, Amyloodiniumiasis, A Virulent Dinoflagellate Disease of Salt Water Fish" on Wet Web Media site. <Okay> I have done a lot of reading on the subject, from your book and from the net and also speaking to aquarium workers. I cannot seem to get a grasp on some of the answers that I am given. <I do hope to be more erudite here> I used to be a veterinary nurse and so I do understand life cycles and the different stages of parasites, obviously in dogs and cats etc, but not fish. In my understanding, once you have treated an organism for a parasite and eradicated all of its different stages from the body, then it cannot come back unless it comes into contact with the parasite again and becomes re-infected. Is this true of Amyloodinium? <Yes... rarely is this protozoan/algae resident w/o becoming virulent... unlike many other single-celled pathogens of captive marines> because the shop workers have told me that: 1. All fish have this parasite and that it becomes infective when the fish becomes immune compromised or stressed. <This is assuredly NOT so> 2. Even if you treat the asymptomatic fish with dips and baths during quarantine it can still appear later even if you do not have the parasite in your tank. <Again, not so> 3. It doesn't matter how long you quarantine a fish for, it can still carry Amyloodinium and develop it at a later date. <I disagree... as do other investigators> 4. After successfully treating an outbreak it can still reappear later. <No... systems can be and remain specific pathogen free... thank goodness> So am I right in thinking that it is like the human Herpes virus in that once you have been infected you will have it for the rest of your life? <No... if excluded, eradicated from a system, it is gone> (Hope that makes sense) They said that nobody knows why this happens and if I find out why then "come back and tell us" was the answer. The reason for these questions is because I have an infestation. I'm devastated. I have done everything by the book, I.e., quarantine and I only buy fish from the one shop who quarantines for 6 weeks and his fish cost a fortune. I am now treating my fish in a separate tank with copper and 2 have died already. The only thing I can think is that I haven't quarantined my corals, which were from a different shop, for long enough before putting them in the main tank and I didn't subject these to any dips or baths either. <Yes... the dinospores can be vectored on anything wet. This is a likely possibility> My question about the article is: At the end where you write "Infected tanks can be cured in one of three ways: 1, 2 and 3" you write in 1 that a tank should be left fallow (without "fish" hosts), I am just making absolutely sure that you mean literally without FISH and to leave in hermits, snails, feather dusters, starfish and corals, along with live rock is ok? <Correct> But then, at the end of the whole section you say "None of these is 100% effective in eradicating Amyloodinium from a system." Does this include points 1, 2 and 3? or just the end paragraphs. Does this mean I need to throw everything away and start again???!! <Unfortunately, this last statement is so... The resting stage/s of this parasite can at times last months w/o fish hosts... The VERY BEST means of control (of Amyloodinium) are exclusion... through careful selection, quarantine, perhaps prophylactic treatment...> I really hope you don't mind me emailing you directly, but I just cannot seem to find anyone who is 100% sure on what to do. Angela Manchester, Britain (In tears). <Oh my friend. I am so sorry for your travails... Do consider the "malarial treatment" mentioned in the above reference. Bob Fenner>
Re: Amyloodiniumiasis 8/7/07
Hi Bob <Angela> (Trying not to cry). I have lost another 2 fish and 2 more are showing signs. Thank you for clearing that up for me. If I was to leave my tank fish free for say 6 months do you think that all stages of the parasite will have died in all my filters and pumps etc? <Yes... most likely all would be gone in a month... virtually certain of all gone in two or more> Would it make any difference to have a UV steriliser? <Not much...> Again I have been told that I would need in theory 20 foot of UV sterilisation to have any effect on the water borne stage. Do I have to face the fact that I shouldn't put fish in my tank again? Angela. <No... As stated before, I have been party to collection and wholesale settings where for economic expediency all have been dumped, bleached... but in a hobby setting, allowing all to go fallow for a few months should "do it". Bob Fenner>
Re: Amyloodiniumiasis   8/8/07
Thank you, thank you, thank you. It is so good to get a straight answer from someone who knows what they are talking about. I will be thoroughly researching quarantining of corals for the next few months on wet web and your book. Just wish I could have saved my little fishes. Once again thanks. Angela. <Welcome! BobF>

Marine Velvet, source/s   5/23/07 Hey folks, I have a question here.  I have been doing this for a long time, had many problems with velvet, but have prevailed in my aquatic endeavors.  I have an established marine aquarium, set up for years.  I looked at my fish today and swear some have velvet.  The thing is, I have not been near a fish store in over 6 months.  All the fish I have in there have been there for at least a year.  I did add some shrimp about 6 months ago.  Could this be?   <Could> Could velvet appear out of nowhere? <Mmm, not out of nowhere, no... but most anything wet could transport/transfer Amyloodinium... even lyophilized/processed brine shrimp nauplii, eggs...> I just can't believe it... I always have QT, I just don't know what to think! <Well, let's hope that this is something else... It may be that you're just seeing some light reflecting from the fish's bodies... Bob Fenner>

Amyloodinium ocellatum    5/15/07 Dear Mr. Fenner, I'm a graduate student at the Gulf Coast Research Laboratory in Ocean Springs, Mississippi, studying epidemiological aspects of Amyloodinium ocellatum infections. I've been looking for an article for a while that you've cited in 'Coral Reef or Velvet Disease, Amyloodiniumiasis, A Virulent Dinoflagellate Disease of Saltwater Fishes'. The article citation is the following:   Bower, C. E. 1987. Update on Amyloodinium ocellatum. SeaScope Fall 87 4(4):1-4.   I've tried many libraries and e-mailed other people including Carol Bower, the author, but I haven't succeeded. I would appreciate receiving a copy of it if you still have it on hand.   Thank you for your courtesy. Sincerely, Ignacio Masson <I see Marineland (new owners...) have only archived issues back to 2001 (http://www.marineland.com/news/news_seascope.asp)... > Ignacio Masson Graduate Research Assistant, PhD Candidate The Gulf Coast Research Laboratory 703 E Beach, Ocean Springs, MS 39566 <Have just looked through my collection. I only have the one copy (bound and given to me as a gift), but will copy this piece and mail it to the above. Address. This is not my property, obviously, but am sure Ms. Bower would encourage its dissemination, and that the present owners of A.S. won't mind. Bob Fenner>  

Oodinium Outbreak   3/22/07 Hello,   Great website, it has been extremely helpful over the last couple of years. I also recently got a copy of CMA and it is wonderful as well. <Lots of good help there, here> I have a bad situation and would like some advice. A maintenance customer of mine has a 210 FOWLR that is in my opinion over stocked and now seems to be consumed with an Oodinium infection (white flaky dandruff like substance all over most of the fish with some cloudy eyes as well). <Yikes... no fun. I was in the service trade for about 19 years...> All fish were quarantined before being put into the tank until last week when the customer called me and said that he was taking home a new Blue Spotted Stingray (which I had told him was a poor choice). <Exceedingly> Since all of the fish had been doing well up till then I would assume that this is where the infection came from. <Mmm, this or most anything wet... including marine foods...> None of the fish have died yet and they are all still eating well. <Mmm, might be Cryptocaryon then instead... Likely Amyloodinium would have wiped out all otherwise by now> But there are a lot of expensive fish that need some help. Would you suggest taking out the live rock and treating with copper or formalin, hyposalinity, just pray? Also would a stingray, zebra eel, or map puffer be ok with copper or any medication? <Mmm... I would treat all as proscribed on WWM... including for these fish/groups... Prayer "helps" only those who "do and believe in it"... Not the physical world> Any help would be greatly appreciated. It has been a very depressing evening, I feel very sorry for the fish that are suffering.      Thanks for your time,   Jeremy <>< <Read on my friend, read on: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm Too much to state here. Bob Fenner>
Re: Oodinium Outbreak  3/23/07 Hello again,   Thanks for your quick response. I have been reading over the FAQ's and am still very confused as to what is wrong with the fish. As you stated if it was Oodinium the fish would likely be dead now, or at least have stopped eating. But it still doesn't look like ich to me (or at least what I think ich looks like), of course I could very possibly be wrong about this. <There are actually several possibilities here... some other Protozoans, some non-pathogenic...> I have attached a few pics of the Boxfish (Ostracion Meleagris) it looks worse than any of the other and is actually in a different tank now because of that. Again it is a very flaky looking white substance covering the entire body. <This appearance is due to the reaction of the host...> The pics are not real good but maybe they will help. Thanks for your time.   Jeremy <>< <Macroscopically this appears to be Crypt to me... if you intend to be successful in the trade, I would get, learn to/use an inexpensive microscope... and good reference works... For many fish pathologies... my fave (w/in reaching distance) is Edward Noga, "Fish Disease, Diagnosis & Treatment"... Expensive, but worthwhile. Bob Fenner>

Another Angelfish and the Prophylactic Use of Copper ) 3/14/07 Hi guys. <Leslie in for the guys this evening'¦> I have a 120 gallon FOWLR which was nearly "completed" recently.  It has two 3" Regal Tangs, a 3" Yellow Tang, a 3" Coral Beauty, a 4" Purple Tang, a Longnose Hawkfish, a Purple Firefish and a Blackcap Basslet. <Wow, that's quite a combination there. I hope you are planning on a much larger tank sometime in the not to distant future.  I hate to be the bearer of bad news but here goes'¦.. your tank is not appropriately stocked. You have 3 more Tangs than the recommended number, which would be one per system unless you have a very large system. 120g would not be considered very large. The Purple Firefish belongs in a more docile environment. These fish have a tendency to hide and starve to death when kept with more pugnacious fish.> I had recently added the "final" addition, a very good looking Bluefaced Angel.  It had been at the LFS for 4 weeks and was eating Mysis shrimp. <Very good signs!> I got him and since my quarantine tank was only 10 gallons and he had been looking good at the LFS a added him directly to my tank. <Woops, a larger quarantine tank would be in order.> Of course four days later he has velvet and dies two days after that. <Oh no, so sorry for the loss, but not unusual.> Naturally a day after he died, the Tangs were showing early signs of velvet too. So I bit the bullet and took out the live rock and cleaner crew.  I treated the whole system with copper and even though the two Blue Tangs went down to the bottom on their sides, everyone recovered. <Very lucky, indeed.> So here is my question:  I'd like to replace the Angel with either another Blueface or an Imperator. <Your tank is really too small for either of those fish. If you have your heart set on one of the large Angelfish you really need a bigger tank. Please do yourself and those fish a favor'¦.get a bigger tank and/or return some of those fish your LFS and re think your stocking plan.> Since the live rock is out and the water is medicated could I add the fish while the copper is still in as to avoid any ick or velvet breakout while adding him? <I wouldn't. Copper is a not gentle drug. I am not a fan of using prophylactic medication most of the time.> It's been about three weeks with the copper in the tank.  Your thoughts on this would be appreciated. Francisco J. <Well those are my thoughts, probably not exactly what you wanted to hear but I hope they help, Leslie>

Attacking Amyloodinium!  - 01/24/2007 Dear Scott, <Hi there!> A little background on myself first. I operate my own aquarium maintenance company. So I buy a lot of fish. <No doubt!> I've read a lot on the Wet Web Media site. You guys do such a great service for all of us out here. <Thanks for the kind words!> I've also recently reread a lot of the articles on fresh water dips. This has saved a lot of fishes lives I can tell you.   <Glad to hear that!> I have a tank of fish right now I've had now for a month, recently lost a Yellow tang, upon closer view I noticed a Black and White Heni with what I think is Velvet. <Uhh-Ohh..> I have had success fighting ick using just freshwater dips, but I've been reading about Velvet and it seems harder to get rid of. I have the feeling that this is what's in this quarantine tank.  None of the fish are scratching but I was surprised to find the Yellow Tang dead. <Well, Velvet is such a virulent disease, it doesn't surprise me that you suffered some losses.> This tank is a 40gallon breeder tank with, a Black and White Heni, Kole Tang, Small Blue Angelfish, Small Regal Tang, Flame Angel, Starry Blenny, and a Neon Goby.   <Quite a crowd!> I would probably use CopperSafe on this tank but with the Flame Angel, Blue Angel, and Black and White Heni, I don't want to put copper in with them. <Agreed that some Centropyge and Tangs have problems with copper for the long term, but I would not be as concerned about the other fishes, myself. If you follow the manufacturer's advice concerning duration and dosage, you should be alright, in my experience.> In your opinion could I fight of Velvet with just the fresh water dipping every other day? Every Day? <Honestly, I doubt it. I think that even though freshwater does provide some degree of osmotic shock to the causative protozoa, it's far more effective to use medications for Velvet, IMO. Yep- I like copper...I know the potential drawbacks for some fishes, but it's my personal weapon of choice.> I have a U.V. light I'll put on the tank tonight but I'm aware it only can kill parasites in the water column. <Correct. U/V is valuable, though.> Any suggestions would be great appreciated,    Jim Jesko   <As above- proceed with caution! Sorry for the delay in responding! Regards, Scott F.>

Possibly Marine Velvet?  - 12/12/06 The Flame Angelfish my dad and I purchased just a day ago has a bunch of white spots on it. They're too many of them for it to be ich. I compared it to the picture of Amyloodinium (Spelling?) <This is it, the correct spelling> in the Conscientious Marine Aquarist and it looks almost exactly like it. We introduced it into the quarantine tank with the lights off and it didn't have any spots on it. Then today it has tons of little white spots on it. The temperature went up 3 degrees from 75-78 overnight. The water quality should be good since we did a 5 gallon water change It's a 10 gallon tank) right before we put the Flame Angelfish in there with water from our main tank which has perfect water quality according to our 2 test kits. I called my dad and we decided to treat the illness and put in the amount of copper-based medicine that the bottle recommended after removing the carbon from the filter. We will do a freshwater dip when my dad gets home. <Mmm, really only useful "in transit", moving fishes from one setting to another (non-infested) one> The Flame Angelfish has about 145-150 gill movements per minute. <Yikes... way too fast> Maybe a little bit more. Is this Amyloodinium for sure? <No... could be Cryptocaryon... other possibilities> The Conscientious Marine Aquarist says that it's often deadly and needs treatment soon. <This is so> The Flame Angelfish doesn't react much to me waving my hand near it <Another good clue, observation on your part> and it hangs around the top mostly swimming at an angle. If there's anything else you would like to know, then I'll be glad to supply it. Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance. <I do hope your fast diagnosis and treatment are useful here. Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/amylloodiniumart.htm and the linked files above to help you solidify your ideas re what this might be, how to proceed... and do keep me/us informed. Bob Fenner>

Amyloodinium   9/26/06 WWM Crew, <Jeff> I received two ocellaris clowns via overnight shipping on Friday. After acclimation to a 20 gallon quarantine tank, I noticed that one of the clowns was breathing heavily and didn't quite have the sheen of the other. It displayed interest in flake food, and would go right up to it and sample it but wouldn't eat it. <A bit soon...> Through a magnifying glass, I saw very small white/gray spots on the upper half of its body. Technically, they were visible to the naked eye, but one would have to get very close to the fish to notice them. I suspected Amyloodinium <Mmm... I would have just waited...> and dropped the specific gravity over a few hours from 1.025 SG to 1.011 <Not a good idea with Clowns to drop so much, so fast> SG following the advice in Wilkerson's Clownfishes. <We are in disagreement here> Seeing no improvement the next day (Saturday), I dosed Seachem's Cupramine as suggested (2 mL to bring concentration to 2.5 mg/L). The next day I continued to see no improvement. <... It may well not be Velvet...> At this point, the sick clown was spending all its time near the bottom of the tank, with labored breathing, <Right. Likely just from the "treatment"> listing occasionally to one side or another. The spots may have been slightly better. I do not recall for certain. I again dosed the Cupramine and brought the copper concentration to the recommended concentration of .5 mg/L (confirmed by Seachem Copper test kit). This morning I awoke to find the sick clown heavily dusted. In addition, the healthy clown, which had previously had no sign of infection whatsoever, has begun to taste and spit out its food. It is otherwise active. A few quick questions. First, I understood from a Trevor-Jones article that copper kills Amyloodinium in the free-swimming dinospore phase. If this is so, does my seeing additional trophonts today suggest that the copper concentration isn't sufficiently high? <Mmm, possibly... need to maintain a physiological dose/concentration at all times> (presumably, today's trophonts were free-swimming dinospores last night when the Cupramine copper concentration was at .5 mg/L). <Yes> Second, is there something else I should be doing? Should I leave the water's specific gravity at 1.011 or begin to increase it over time? Thank you very much. -Jeff <I would... contact the shipper re this incident... all other clowns they have, have shipped are likely afflicted. And I would consider an immersion bath/dip in a volume of similar spg water and formalin... then movement to all new water (to cut the life cycle...). Bob Fenner> Re: Amyloodinium, SW   9/26/06 Thanks for the reply. I'd like to clarify one point you made. After the formalin dip, you recommended moving the fish to new water. Should I maintain the copper concentration in this new water or stop the treatment altogether for the time being? Thanks. <I would maintain the chelated copper level/use. BobF>

-Velvet? Nope Tis Pods-   9/4/06 <Justin with you tonight, who is up WAYYYYYY to late for his liking :) > Greetings! I had a tank infestation of what I strongly believe to be Amyloodinium around 8 weeks ago. I had it about a year before with the unquarantined introduction of a Coral Beauty, and thought I conquered it but nevertheless it came back.  Lesson learned, always quarantine and keep water quality high! As far as treatment goes, too little too late. Two damsels survived, but all the other fish were too far gone. The damsels are in a quarantine tank that I treated with copper. I also gave them a freshwater dip with Meth Blue before going in and they seem to be doing well. <Do be careful with the copper, don't use tank on scaleless fish and or for q/ting corals or inverts now.  best to mark and set aside as coppered.> Rather than dosing the FO show tank with copper I chose to just let it go fallow for six weeks or so and theoretically get rid of or severely weaken the Amyloodinium, eh?  However, on the eighth week I am still noticing small white specks on the glass; about half are stationary and half seem to be moving. They are about the same size as a grain of sugar, looking very much like what infected the fish. They are all about the same size. I can scrape them from the glass and they will reappear a day or so later, with various amounts (sometimes only a few, sometimes they're all over the glass).   They are barely visible to the naked eye, but I can still absolutely tell that some of the specks are moving about. Patience is a virtue, yes, but I'm getting a little eager to get the tank going again at this point ^.^ <Those aren't Velvet cysts, but amphipods, copepods, etc, beneficial micro fauna, the bottom of the food chain.> Would I be correct in assuming they are Amyloodinium tomonts, trophonts, etc? I realize it's kind of a wild shot, asking this through an email, and I suppose without a photo or sample that identification would be difficult. However, is it possible for Amyloodinium or some other  parasite to last this long (almost 8 weeks) in a fallow tank? Could they continue their life cycle without a fish host? The only things I left in the tank were 4 Blue-legged hermits (still going strong) and a clump of some sort of algae. Is it possible they can continue their life cycle with the crabs or algae but not become a problem?   A week ago I added 35lbs of Lalo live rock (very very nice, from Drs. Foster and Smith). My only hope is that a tank sterilization is not necessary, since I really don't have money to just replace the live rock.  I figured I'd have to wait another month or so anyways to let the rock cure. Any invincible parasites ring a bell? Any experience with this sort of problem? Perhaps these specks are not Amyloodinium, but some benign thing that is always around. Never noticed it on the glass before though..... On a good note, I have a new Rubbermaid sump that's working very well, and 475gph though the 75gal tank. New heater, Poly Filters, life is good. The Euro-Reef skimmer works like a charm, and with no clearance necessary to remove the skimmer cup it is absolutely a great product. Thank you for the recommendation on that, and thank you for your help. You guys (and gals?) do a great job with the site and it's a great resource I'm glad to have. I probably would not still be in the hobby if it weren't for the huge amount of info on here. Thanks Again, Bryan, PA <New rock you added as well as the old rock being fishless has allowed the copepod population to grow and is definitely a sign of a healthy tank.  At this point slowly adding fish over the next few weeks would be fine, but do go slower to allow the biofilter to catch up with each addition.  Q/t the new ones so you don't have to do all this again.  Good luck with your tank.> <Justin>

- Velvet issue, 6/25/06 - Hi crew, <The crew says hi.> First off, thank you for all the time and effort that you put into the website and your books. In a year and a half I've gone from complete newbie reef keeper to having a solid understanding and respect for the hobby using WWM as my main source of info. This is my first time writing in, and the first time that I'm faced with an issue that I can't resolve using your wonderful archives. I apologize in advance for the length of this email but there are a lot of variables here that may have played a role in the situation. Here goes.. I've had my 72 gallon reef up and running for about a year now with really no problems. Last week I decided that I wanted to add another 20 lbs of LR in addition to the existing 50 lbs that's been in there since the start. So I took a ride over to the LFS, which happens to be a very reputable shop, and they told me that they had their LR curing for about two months and that it should be fine to place it right in my display tank (since I was going to keep it submerged during the ride home and the store was only 15 minutes away from my place). So the rock went in, and I went away for the weekend, only to come back to an elevated pH (ph meter read 8.6, up from the normal 8.35 at that time of night) and white spots on my purple tang. I immediately checked the water parameters and found zero ammonia, nitrates or nitrites. The next morning, I set up my 15 gallon QT tank and filled it halfway with new SW. I did a 20 gallon water change on the display tank and used some of that water to fill up the rest of the QT. I then drove back to the store and explained the situation to them. They recommended a treatment for the tang called Oodinex, (not the same as Oodin ex) made by the German company Wiegandt. They said that what I was describing to them sounded like Oodinium and not ich, but I'm not really sure because I can't for the life of me find any good pictures of Oodinium to compare with the pictures of fish infected with ich. <The best way to tell is simply this - if ich looks like the fish has been salted - well defined white dots roughly the size of a grain of salt. Oodinium is still white dots but many more of them and much, much smaller - the dots are so small in fact that they are hard to discern - often best seen by looking at the fish in profile, down the length of the fish from the front or back. There are usually so many of these dots that they give the fish a velvety sheen - hence the name, velvet disease. I'm not convinced this is your problem, and I'll explain why in a bit.> Either way, the treatment contains 2,550 ppm Copper so I'm guessing it should suffice if it is ich. So the tang has been in QT for 2 days and hasn't really moved from the corner or eaten. It's breathing heavy and its color has faded except for a stripe that extends from the head to the tailfin. Having researched the disease on WWM, the consensus seems to be that copper isn't exactly effective against velvet, and fresh water dips with Methylene blue may be in order. However, I am hesitant to dip the fish in its current condition. I feel that any more stress on it will probably kill it. Would you agree? <Yes... stress piled on stress.> Also, should I be doing small water changes on the QT daily while trying to keep the medication level at its recommended dosage? <I would skip water changes until there is detectable ammonia/nitrite, and then as you mention - replacing medication for the amount of water replaced.> I'm left wondering what it was about the rock that caused the sudden affliction. If there was no die-off, and ich and velvet are only transmittable from fish to fish, what could it have been? <Theories coming soon to an email near you.> The tank that the store kept the rock in was fish-free. Now to complicate matters, the other fish in the tank are two ocellaris clowns, which are showing no signs of the disease, and a bicolor blenny which now has 3 - 4 white spots on its head, won't eat, keeps trying to bite its own tail and generally appears to be very agitated. Since copper is extremely toxic for blennies, I'm guessing that I have to set up another QT and just do the fresh water/Methylene blue dips? <If that's how you're going to approach this problem, then yes a second quarantine would help.> How many times can I/should I dip it if this is the case? <I try to stick with every other day... every day can be a little too stressful.> I plan on keeping the tang and blenny in QT for 4 weeks if they survive. If the clownfish aren't susceptible to the parasite, would it be ok to keep them in the display tank, going with the idea that having them in there is the same as not providing the parasite with any fish hosts for a month? <Well... if this is actually a parasitic outbreak, then no, you wouldn't want to keep any fish in the main tank and allow it to go fallow. Having any fish that "could" host the parasite means they eventually will.> Two QT tanks I can handle, but three would be really rough (it's a small apartment!). If I do need to QT the clowns, can I/should I put them into the same tank with the tang and copper now, or do I wait until after the 10-14 day treatment, remove the medication with carbon and then QT them for a month, allowing the display tank to clear of the parasites? Sorry, I know that was a lot of questions, but this situation has my head spinning (as I'm sure yours is now :-)) . <Actually, my head was spinning before I read this email but for very different reasons.> Thanks in advance for any help on this matter! Matt <Matt, it's always difficult to know with absolute certainty what is going on in situations like this, so all we hobbyists can do is our best to observe the symptoms and do what we can to keep our fish going. A couple of thoughts are rattling in my spinning head. First, I don't think this is Oodinium/velvet and I'll tell you why: Oodinium is simply too virulent. Most times when you finally decide this is actually the problem your fish has, they die - the parasite moves much too quickly, and very often had a head start in the gills where you didn't see it in time. Likewise, it spreads with similar speed so almost everyone would show some sign at this point, not just a dot or three on the blenny for instance. What is more likely is that this is ich caused by stress and not brought in on the live rock per se. Here's the skinny: I'm sure you know, live rock is quite porous, and if you brought it home wet, then you introduced a decent quantity of water from the LFS rock tank into your own tank along with the rock. Because saltwater fish drink their water, they would encounter any differences pretty quickly and may or may not stress out because of it. So, even small differences in say alkalinity would be enough to cause stress in some fish - tangs seem to be one of the most susceptible to these kinds of changes (sometimes even just water changes). So... I'd leave everyone else be for the moment. I'd keep a good eye on the tang and make sure it has some stuff to interact with in the quarantine tank - PVC fittings, etc. - places to hide. Keep an eye on water quality first and foremost, and secondarily on the spots on the fish. If things don't improve in the tang, it will likely not make it through any form of chemical treatment so I'd just leave it be for the moment - if you want, try the freshwater dips every other day if it seems that the spots are not going away, but I'd concentrate on reducing stress in this fish more than anything else. In the future, put any wet rock through a series of rinses in your own water before introducing the rock to your main tank, or better yet cure for an extra week at home before adding. Cheers, J -- >

Marine Velvet:   6/8/06 I introduced this to my system due to poor quarantine practices.  I know my fault, stupid.  I knew about it and well this is obviously what it has to take in order for me to change my practices.  But I have taken all of the fish out of my tank, quarantined them, treating with copper and freshwater dips for as long as it takes my main tank to cycle out the parasite. My question is can my snails, shrimp, starfish, corals, and anemone safely sit in the tank while the tank is in this cycling process? <Yes, and they are not "carriers"> I looked through all of the forums and failed to find any information on what to do with the corals and anemone.  Thanks. Jonathan aka Stupid Idiot <Don't be so hard on yourself Jonathan... You have gained/learned by this experience. Cheers, Bob Fenner>

Time For Another Round of Treatment?    5/4/06 Hello! <Hi there! Scott F. here today!> I have had several fish in quarantine now for five weeks. I diagnosed them as having Amyloodinium, based on the appearance and behavior of the fish-- pinhead sized white spots and scratching on everything in sight. <Could also be good old-fashioned Cryptocaryon, in the absence of other symptoms, such as difficulty breathing, sloughing of mucus, etc. Amyloodinium kills very rapidly. Regardless, the medical approach is similar for both illnesses.> They have been treated with Cupramine (Seachem's answer to copper's down sides) for  better than three weeks at the recommended concentration. The problem I'm having is that as I observe the fish to make sure the parasites are gone, I continue to see some of the fish scratching on the rocks and sand. There are no other signs of parasites and haven't been for these last three weeks. <Ahh.. minor criticism here. I would highly recommend NOT using a substrate in a "hospital" tank. In addition to "sucking up" medications (making it tough to maintain a proper therapeutic dose), substrates provide refuge for the causative protozoa to anchor in during their free-swimming stage. This is a bit over-simplified, but you get the idea. Next time, go completely bare bottom in a treatment tank.> Everyone is apparently healthy except for the scratching. Do you have any ideas as to what's happening here. I'm hesitant to put fish back in the display tank. Thanks! Scott <I agree, Scott. At this point, I'd back off on the treatment for a while, as continuous exposure to meds can be tough on the fishes. After about a week off meds, I'd consider embarking on another round of treatment if symptoms persist. Regular water changes will ensure a healthy environment, and frequent feeding will help the fishes maintain the energy they need to get better. Continue close observation, and monitor dosage carefully. Good luck! Regards, Scott F.>

Quandary with Oodinium infection - 2/28/2006 Hello WWM crew!  I really love the site and have learned an enormous amount from the posts. but I didn't learn it fast enough to prevent the predicament I'm in: <Mmmm> I've had an outbreak of Oodinium on my 150 marine FOWLR tank for the last week.  It has already finished off my three Butterflies and I have since created a hospital tank (20gal) and have my Rabbit fish isolated in it treating with Cupramine.  I've still got a 6in hippo tang, a smaller yellow tang and a 4 inch Naso in the main tank. <All have to be treated...>   The Hippo is looking pretty bad and I can tell the yellow is starting to be infected. <All are infected... as well as the system itself> I'm really worried that I'll lose the tangs if I don't quarantine and treat but I've only got the one 20 gal hospital that has been running for 3 days and I don't think I can fit all 4 fish in it.  Should I (1) let the three tangs fight the infection and hope they survive (I have 2 cleaner shrimp in the tank working overtime.) at this point all are eating pretty well)  And if they don't let the tank go fallow to let the organisms die and start over....or (2) make a makeshift hospital out of a Rubbermaid container and buy another cheap filter and heater and hope I can cycle fast enough to not kill the fish from ammonia and then treat with Cupramine.....and let the tank fallow for a month.  I'm not sure the tangs would survive either way.....any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated! <I'd opt for the second approach if you ever intend to introduce other fish life here> Which do you think is the lesser of two evils?  I'm really sick as this tank was going along great till I put in a maroon clown from my LFS without quarantine (duh! Never again even from my LFS its 30 days of isolation from now on!) My LFS says a Rubbermaid tub won't work as an isolation because the plastic is too porous and will absorb the copper and the other stuff in the water and get nasty? <Mmm, no... needs to be tested/measured daily, likely re-applied... Water changed to dilute wastes> How long would on expect the Cupramine to start working on the rabbit fish. I've dosed it twice on startup like the bottle says and am checking copper levels and they are about .5mg/L. <... too much. See WWM re... 0.35 mg/l or ppm tops> Rabbit was darting around the tank like he was insane. Is that normal too? (he's been in full dose of Cupramine about 24 hours? Sorry for the dumb questions.. just looking for some advice.. realizing that it may be too late anyways.. Thanks George W <Much to consider, and a need for immediate action. Bob Fenner>
Re: quandary with Oodinium infection    3/2/06
Thanks so much for you quick reply...... I'm taking your advice and creating a temp 30gal hospital tank right now.  Couple of quick follow ups if you would mind too terribly....I've got the SeaChem copper test kit but I have a hard time telling the shades of blue apart...any suggestions on a easier to read kit? <I would look to the Hach and LaMotte companies here> My ammonia is about 1ppm right now in my 20 gallon hospital...what is the level of ammonia that would require me to start water changes.   <Posted... I would keep this under 1.0 ppm> If I have to do daily water changes to keep the toxins in check, can I introduce new water for the changes or must I use tank water? <The latter is best/better... if not infested of course> I really appreciate your help.....were all very fortunate to have dedicated knowledgeable folks like you to give us guidance while we learn the ropes.... George W <I do wish the ding dang trade would adopt a prophylactic pH adjusted FW dipping policy... most all the Amyloodinium and Cryptocaryon problems would/could/should be avoided thus. Bob Fenner>

Marine Velvet, HELP!  - 02/16/2006 Hi there, <Hello> My tank seems to be invested <Cash it in!> with Marine Velvet and I have lost 4 fish in the past 3 weeks to this bugger. My tank is a 155g and I suspect the disease came from a fish (sweetlips) that I got from my LFS.   <Not a hardy animal, genus... and not quarantined...> I did not QT the fish (my mistake) and he died about 2 & ½ weeks later, with a noticeable spot on his side.  Since then, my Half-Moon Angel (had for 8 months prior), Tomato Clown (8 years prior), Anthias (5 months prior) and Royal Gramma (2 months prior) have all died of what I believe is marine velvet.  I also have 4 Yellow Tangs who have since contracted it as well.  After my Gramma died, I rushed out to by a 10g QT tank for my angel & clown.  I threw them in there and started treating with Maracyn & Maracyn Plus. <? Not useful here>   My clown died 3 days later (I was doing daily wc's to the QT tank of about 2-3 gallons, using the saltwater from my main tank <-- is that good or should I have just made fresh SW?), <... you should have read on WWM, and should now> and then I threw my Anthias in with the angel and he died 2 days later as well.   <Too little, too late> All this time the angel seemed to be doing well.   After that, my Gramma died in the tank and my starfish ate him (less cleaning for me =)...) and then I went out and bought a 20g QT for my Tangs. <Better> I have since put my tangs in there (about 3 days ago) and have been treating only with copper, then my Angel died last night (very sad, she was a beautiful & expensive fish).   Now I'm at a loss as to what to do.  My main tank has 9 Nassarius Snails, 7 or so Blue-legged hermit crabs, 1 Atlantic Hermit Crab (about 3"), 2 Skunk Shrimps, and 1 Bali Starfish.  The inverts seem to be doing fine, but how can I rid the velvet from my tank? <...> I did a 60g wc about 4 days ago and since then, I've done 3 small, 10g changes in hopes to rid the system of it. <? No> I read some articles on WWM about treating velvet and they recommended that I either crank up the heat to about 95 degrees (which would kill all my inverts), drain the tank completely and let it dry (I have no other tank available to put my inverts), or use the bleach method and rinse with freshwater (which again, would prob. kill my inverts).  So what do I do?   <I'd leave all be... sans fishes, hosts... for a couple months...> I have no LR, just 120lbs of LS and fake coral.  I have a 50g wet/dry filter/sump with a Red Sea Berlin Protein Skimmer and 2 overflow boxes with pre-filters (I know, I hate undrilled tanks!) so I think I'm ok with my equipment (I've got a Turbo Twist 36w on back order from Fosters & Smith). ANY, and I mean ANY help you can give me on this would be greatly appreciated.  I feel really bad that I've lost so many fish in such little time. Thanks in advance for the help and thanks for having such a great website. Bob <Spend the fallow months reading... on WWM, elsewhere. Spiff up your new quarantine systems, make a new stocking plan... Bob Fenner>

Velvet pix?   2/3/06 Dear Mr. Bob Fenner, Interzoo, Odessa is online. We have read Marine Velvet 3 FAQ and found the letter of Steven, regarding light microscopic images of Amyloodinium. We also need for quality light microscope images for the adequate diagnostics. We will be grateful if you will notice us about any finding and we will try also help you in the booking. Thank you at advance, Interzoo crew.        <Mmm, am not following you here. Will cc Steven to see if he can help. Bob Fenner>

Breaking The Life Cycle of Amyloodinium    1/19/06 Just a quick question, can Velvet disease stay  dormant hiding in a fish without killing it? I had an outbreak and I  have one fish left and it seems healthy. Its been over 2 months now and  I want to make sure that its safe to put fish in with it in the  future. <I suppose that it is possible. The causative organisms do require a host to complete their life cycle, but they do go into a phase where they detach from the host fishes and attach to substrate in the form of a cyst. It may be possible for some of these organisms to emerge at a later time to wreak havoc. I would highly recommend "fallowing" the tank (removing all of the fishes) to completely deprive the causative protozoa (Amyloodinium) of their hosts for about a month. There is no guarantee- but this is an effective technique. Good luck! Regards, Scott F.>

Velvet disease   1/14/06 Good evening, <Afternoon here now> I have a 2 part question. First, I lost a blue tang to velvet disease (I know should've quarantined him) but I had placed him in the tank and I am scared he might have passed it along to anything else in there. <If this is what it was, the system has it> Now all I have left is an eel, 2 serpent starfish, crabs, and some snails. Now are eels capable of getting the disease? <Not as easily as "higher" fishes, but yes... Otherwise can act as reservoir hosts...> I don't plan on putting anything else in the tank for a while. Now can I just wait it out and put new fish after 2 months or so, or is there a possibility that if I do that something in the tank might still give it to whatever I put in it? <Yes> Hoping you can guide me to see what is the best possible plan in order to have a healthy tank. Thank you in advance, Armando <... to be safe, the eel should be moved, treated elsewhere, the main tank left free of fish hosts for a month or more. Bob Fenner>

Marine Velvet?  - 01/09/2006 Hi, <Hello> First off I would like to say thank you for the wonderful service all of you provide.  My question concerns the possibility of a marine velvet outbreak in my tank.  I have never seen a fish with marine velvet in person and I was not able to find a clear picture of it on the net, so diagnosing it has not happened yet.  I have two fish in my tank a four stripe damsel, and one yellow tang.  Two days a go I noticed a very small white spot on the tail of the damsel, but it was gone within a few hours. <Not velvet/Amyloodinium> I know the life cycle of this parasite involves itself attaching itself to the fish, and then falling off, but I thought the odds of my catching it in the falling off stage in just the few hours I knew about it were low so I just put it into the back of my mind.  The next day everything seemed fine.  However, today there are two more very small white spots on the damsels tail again.   <Perhaps crypt/ich> So far these spots have been isolated to the damsel's tail only.   <Maybe not> This is the only symptom, there is no scratching heavy breathing or any other behavior deviating from normal. <And not on other fishes? This is something non-pathogenic> The only thing that leads me to believe it is velvet, not ich is the very small size of the white spots.  From everything I have read velvet deteriorates the fish very quickly, <Usually, yes> and I have seen nothing of the sort yet.  This fish has had a history of changing its colors (Ex. large white spots, turning almost entirely black, and turning almost entirely white) due to stress, <Important clue> or for no apparent reason I can think of, but I have seen nothing like this recently.  The tang may be infected, but I see no symptoms, white spots on a yellow fish may be hard to see.  I have set up a QT tank for the damsel and I am about to set a 55 gallon QT for the tang.  If this is velvet at least I caught it early.  I know this is a lot, and I don't think I actually asked a direct question, but please give me some feedback or ideas on what could help my situation.  I really appreciate the service all of you provide. Thank you, Aron <I would look to improving water quality, bolstering immune systems through food supplementation here... not adding medications, isolating the fishes. Bob Fenner>

Velvet I think  12/13/05 I have 1 clownfish, I've had him a year in a 15 gallon nano reef. I think  he has velvet. <... not after a year... unless it was introduced> He looks "dusty" I am afraid I caused this by neglecting a water   change for over a week. (I had company) What can I do? I do have corals in the  tank. Just some mushrooms, Ricordea and a leather. Some crabs and snails. I hope  there is something I can use, he really is my pet. Thanks Debra Jansen <Best to check, improve water quality... Bob Fenner>
Re: Velvet I think  12/13/05
Bob Are you saying he can't come down with that unless I've added  something to introduce it? <Yes> If it isn't that than what? <Likely "just" body secretions...> What about marine Ick. <This also very rarely "rests" for such long periods w/o expressing itself> I  know what freshwater Ick looks like. <FW ich does have long "resting stages"> I think I've seen marine ick also ( just  like freshwater) He is eating and seems O.K. other than the dusty look. I  haven't added anything to the tank in 6 months. Should I just do 2-3 gallon  water changes every couple days for a week or so for water quality? Thanks for your fast reply. Debra Jansen <Yes to the water changes. Bob Fenner>

Can freshwater dips with velvet clog gills? Plus, disappearing copper  11/9/05 I have been battling velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum) in my tank for over three months. You'd think I was an idiot, but I'm pretty much an expert on the parasite by now (I even helped the not-so-expert local PetSmart to identify and rid their system of velvet). I have spent days reading up on your site over the last few months, which has been helpful, despite my lack of success. I rid PM's 250g tank of velvet, however, I am not having the same luck with my 72. To make a long story short, I lost almost all my fish in two days the first time around, <Can be very virulent> so the tank went fallow for two months and the surviving fish in a QT (with no outbreaks over those two months at all). Upon my re-introduction of a yellow tang, it died overnight from velvet once more. How does velvet survive in a fallow tank for two months?  <On "slime" detritus... a good idea to clean out, lower spg, raise temp...> So the 72g was stripped down, all corals were put in a 30g (which are doing great), and the rock in a tub. I sucked up the 5" DSB, scrubbed the tank dry, and after a 100% water change, the 72g has a 3/4 in sandbed (not live) and is treated with Cupramine (but still has live rock - it's expensive and I didn't want to let it go). <... Cupramine and carbonaceous materials together? Not for long... the carbonate in the substrate and LR will absorb the copper in short order...> Corals will stay in the 30g for 10 weeks so the parasite dies out. The 72g will be treated for a month and the copper will be sucked out if the remaining rock for a month with CupriSorb.  <Uhh, not likely> Sounded like a good plan, but then it got messy. <I'll bet...> 1. I can't get copper to show up in my tank. I've added three times the max dosage of Cupramine (should be 1.5 ppm by now) over the last week and I am still getting a 0 reading on Seachem's copper test.  <Is all gone... absorbed> Seems the copper or the test would be bad, but both seemed to work for Pet's Mart's tank. Everything in my tank should be dead - even fish, but NOTHING is dying. I think the test is right - the one mushroom coral left is thriving, so there can't be much copper. The velvet is thriving too. I think my current fish have fought it off enough that they are immune, but new fish I'm trying to QT have it now (I thought treating new fish would be good, to make sure they didn't have anything from the LFS. now I know that was a very bad idea. please forgive my bad judgment!). <Mmm, not a bad call, just a poor choice of means of execution> I know rock and sand can absorb copper, but can they absorb that much?  <Oh yes... and much more> If so, is it going to release all that at once and wipe out my tank?  <Could, but unlikely to do so... but enough can/could be released to damage other than fishes.> What should I do? I have PVC pipe for them to hide in if I need to trash the rock, but I hate to lose that much LR. it's expensive. <... I would sell, trade to someone with fish-only system aspirations> 2. I've tried a freshwater dip on two fish who have both died. I followed protocol to a tee - R/O water pH matched, temp matched, and aerated for one hour. The yellow tang I dipped bled out of his gills (that's what it looked like) immediately, then quit moving, so I put him back in the QT - I'm assuming he was too far gone and the bursting parasites ripped his lungs up.  <<Hey, mate, fish don't have lungs.  It's the gills they're breathing with.  MH>> He lived for a few hours but died overnight. Was the dip the wrong thing to do? <In this case, yes... I would not FW dip fishes for Velvet treatment...> A new dip bucket was set up for a Coral Beauty which was given to me by Pet's Mart to save. The CB was fine in the freshwater, swimming like nothing was wrong for five minutes. Upon re-introduction  <... why replace the fish/es in an infested system?> to the QT, he freaked out, swimming at the top of the water. He died quickly thereafter, and did not sink. I was told that FW dips for velvet can clog their lungs with the dying parasites tissue. Can that happen? <Yes> Would trapped air be the cause of his floating? <Possibly, but doubtful... more likely disorientation, the fish trying to breath> From experience, I don't want to dip my pink tail trigger (which is the one fish I didn't want to lose - not easy to replace). Is that a bad call? Is there a point where the dip does more damage than good?  <Yes> What is that point?  <Individual cases... how debilitated what species, specimen is...> Is there anything that can be done once it's showing on their body?  <Yes...> He'll probably be gone by morning but I thought I'd ask for next time. Thanks so much for your help and patience. Rockwell Ryan  <... Have you read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/amylloodiniumart.htm and the Related linked files above? I would do so (again), and the archived materials on Copper Use... You need to treat these afflicted fishes in a system devoid of carbonaceous material... with daily testing... plenty of aeration, water on hand for change-outs. Bob Fenner> 

Being jocular, carefree, and Amyloodinium 10/13/05 Me again. I sent an email a few days ago regarding an Oodinium outbreak that kept coming back to haunt me (even without hosts in the tank for over 4 months). I washed the tank down with fresh water and let it dry for 3 days before putting my display water into it. On the third day, I added a Pakistani butterfly. I was too afraid to use bleach to sterilize the tank for future deaths with new fish (in case I didn't get every last bit of bleach).  <Not hard to rid all... chemically... and necessary. Just drying doesn't often kill all of the parasite> Was letting it dry for 3 days good enough to kill off the parasite (do they die after being dry and out of water for a while)? <No> Should I worry about my new b/f contacting it even with all new water and hosing off/drying tank? <Will worrying change the future?> I also let the filter pad and bio wheel dry out for those 3 days and by mistake I put them both back in the tank. Luckily they were only in there for about an hour before I realized. Then I took them out. Please tell me all of this is ok, I need help guys!!! Thanks so much, Jay <Trouble my friend. Bob Fenner> 

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