Hiya! Octopus project... sel., sys.    1/21/07
Hi! You guys seem like good people to turn to!
<Sometimes>
For a science project this year (I'm in High School) I've been trying to get a hold of a Californian Two Spot octopus to put its intelligence to the test with a variety of experiments such as running it through a maze and the like.
<Have judged at such get-togethers, and collected this species...>
I've spent the last three or so months cycling a 72ish gallon tank. I harvested a 2-3 inch layer of sand from the Oregon coast personally, along with a goodly supply of live rock and water. My partner and I have been doing water tests religiously, and the water is finally up to snuff with an octopus' requirements. We have a large protein skimmer/mechanical filter and canister filter. We've customized the tank so its the Alcatraz of the sea.
<Mmm, need two such systems... or at least some secure, chemically-inert containers to keep the octopi separated... not social animals>
We are just struggling with actually finding a seller! Are there any good sites on where to find captive bred, two spot octopi, who's hopefully around three months old?
<Mmm, don't know re captive bred... But do contact the "LA Wholesalers", like Quality Marine, Sea Dwelling Creatures re wild-collected specimens... I would do this directly (their contact info. can be found on the Net), rather than trying to deal with intermediates (fish stores)... If there are tide-pool areas, you might consider low-minus tides to gathering your own...>
Also, what EXACTLY should we feed the octopus? Should we also get an external refugium to house live feeder shrimp, crabs, clams...?
<Shrimp, crabs... live are best...>
Well, I hope you can answer these questions, cause science fair is right around the corner, and the whole school has put their hope and dreams into the Octo-project.
Oh, and with feeding, can one just dump 50 feeder shrimp in the tank, and let nature take its course?
<Mmm, no... need to be careful to not pollute NOR over-feed these animals... see WWM re cephalopod husbandry>
Can octopus be trusted to eat only when hungry, or will this just result in an unhealthy octopus?
Thanks a million,
Norris
<Bob Fenner>

Octopus selection question  1/13/06
Hey Crew,
<Daniel>
Is there a better time of the year to purchase an octopus or is it mostly hit and miss?
<Better to buy during spring into summer... do better when collected, shipped in warmer weather... especially cool to cold water species. Bob Fenner>
Sincerely,
Danny

Looking for cuttlefish? - 4/6/04 
Hello <Hello> I have 17 years experience in keeping marine aquariums, & have successfully kept many types of animals.<Want to volunteer here? We can always use some help!> I have a 100 gal. aquarium that I would like to dedicate to a single cuttlefish. <What kind of cuttlefish? This will help to understand the captive environmental needs of the animal, equipment needs, the costs to you, and where to procure an animal> I have found a number of sources for husbandry information. <The greatest cuttlefish/cephalopod site in the world: http://www.dal.ca/~ceph/TCP/ > But I am unable to find a source for the actual cephalopod. <Check the link above. There is some information on it. Some of the sites are no longer in business but others are still in tact. You can always ask your favorite retailer to special order or at the very least make a request to the many online resellers> Can anyone help me to find a cuttlefish? <Let me know if you are able to procure one. I will work around here see what I can find. Please email with a status with my name in the title in about a week or two.> Please send me any info that will help to: XXXX@XX XXX.com. Thank you for your time. <You bet! Again, please send status as soon as you can. Thanks. ~Paul>

Keeping an Octopus? Mm.. not Recommended Just Yet!
>Hello crew of WetWebMedia,
>>Hello, Marina tonight.
>Thanks for helping me out with my question. 
>>Don't thank me just yet, I'm going to kindly ask that you please use proper capitalization, punctuation when sending us correspondence. We are an all-volunteer crew, inundated with a huge number of emails daily, and are forced to retype such messages. 
>So recently I made a trip to my LFS and they had two small octopi that they were selling, they were called either Atlantic or Pacific Dwarf Octopus, not quite sure what the scientific name was.
>>It seems that you're not even sure about the common names, what ocean they come from, let alone their generic nomenclature. This is not a good place to start, my friend.
>I asked them about it and they said that they only reach about 3-4 inches and they said that it was possible to keep it in a 10 gallon tank, I would like your opinion on the necessary tank size.
>>I cannot, in good conscience, encourage you to try this. Keeping octopi and cuttles (their Cephalopod brethren) is a specialized endeavor. It is clear that you are a beginner, and I honestly feel that this attempt will likely lead to the death of the octopus you bring home. I cannot encourage you ENOUGH, however, to do as much searching and researching as possible (assuming you are very interested specifically in Cephalopods) before even considering purchasing a specimen. 
>Also what type of filtration would be best?
>>In my opinion? Think "reef". Also, think "raccoons", as ALL octopi can and will escape any normal tank should they choose. I'm hoping I'm doing a good job of discouraging you from purchasing this/these animals at this point.
>Will I need a skimmer?
>>Basic question, you need to do more research, MUCH more research, and there is more information you'll need than I am able/willing to offer in a single email.
>Should I have any power heads or will they be sucked up by them?
>>Same as above.
>If the filter isn't an underground filter should I have live sand or crushed coral rubble? Are they compatible with any corals or inverts?
>>Again, same as above. Please, make use of Google, not just on our site, but on the www as well. Read, read, read, and read some more.
>I planned on just keeping plants in the tank with it, mainly Halimedas, Grape Vine, and Shaving Bush plants, would this be ok?
>>Um...
>What would you suggest that I feed it? Are there any precautions that I should take for
preparing the tank? Any other information that you can collect would be great, and thanks again for helping me out with this. Randy
>>Well, Randy, like I said, don't thank me just yet. First things first, yeah? I suggest you spend a few days searching on the web. Searching our site has netted me one link - http://www.tonmo.com/. Now it's your turn. It would probably be most helpful to you to first learn what animal you're talking about, exactly. After that, some books would be appropriate, maybe searching for some octopi/cuttlefish forums, searching them for basic information. Along with being sensitive to water quality, these are escape artists extraordinaire. Keeping cephalopods is, in my opinion, a specialized endeavor, and one I also honestly think that only advanced aquarists are best suited to attempt. Marina 

Blue ringed octopus
Hello my name is Jessie I am planning on setting up a specialty tank and I 
was curious as of how big a blue ringed octopus can get so I can get the 
correct size aquarium....Thank you for your time....
Jessie
>>
Jessie, please don't go forward with this idea... not only are these animals deadly venomous... they're very short lived (about a year maximum)... and in all honesty, very reclusive (they hide all the time...). Even in a suitable sized system (let's say forty gallons, even for a small specimen), it would be hard to find one.
My real advice is to keep searching for more suitable species of animals.
Bob Fenner, who is sorry to be so negative, but have just seen so many of these cephalopods lost for... 

Blue Ring Octopus in Trade
> Dear industry and hobby representatives on the MAC Board and Advisory
Board,  I thought you would be interested to hear these concerns being expressed
by  an octopus researcher re the trade in aquarium animals that have the
> potential to be fatal. > Paul
> Quote
> "This is the season for blue-rings! We frequently see large supplies of
> them this time of year. One supplier told me this week that a holding
> operation in Indonesia was listing over 300 in stock. Last week, a retail
> store in San Francisco had a dozen on display in a front tank easily
> accessible to patrons. With this many animals in the pipe-line, we should
> be seeing them for sale everywhere. This obviously makes me nervous that
> someone is going to get hurt. But what to do? I've tried writing numerous
> warnings that have been posted here and elsewhere, but the only responses
I > usually receive are "I have a constitutional right to bear blue-rings" or
> "blue-rings don't kill - people do".
> >I've thought about writing a piece for a popular forum like FAMA, but to
> get it accepted, and more importantly read, I would probably have to
include
> some of my photos and I'm afraid that popularizing these beasts would do
> more harm than good. I already have occasional guilt pangs from allowing
> some of my pictures to be posted.
> >I've also considered going to the Feds suggesting regulation of import, but
> frankly this is would be opening up a Pandora's box that could be bad for
> responsible hobbyists as well as researchers. If you ban or regulate the
> import of one species, how and where do you draw the line? Stonefish are
> bad, scorpion fish are O.K.?
> >One idea that I have had, and perhaps some of the attorney's out there
> might want to comment on whether this would be of any utility, is to contact
> through professional association lists, as many retailers, wholesalers, and
> importers as possible, warning them of the potential dangers of selling
> blue-rings to uninformed individuals and also stating that I will make
> available to anyone injured by one all information that I have about the
> known risks and too whom and how this information has been disseminated.
> >The industry really has to take responsibility here. I have encountered a
> few suppliers over the years who would not sell me blue-rings until I proved
> that I was part of a research operation and/or who provided information with
> a shipment stating that these animals were deadly. However, the vast
> majority of suppliers say absolutely nothing about the risks. 
> >For those of you who frequent various conventions meetings related to the
> industry and/or hobby, has there ever been a session or symposium
> devoted to the general topic of the importation and sale of dangerous marine
> animals and how to minimize the risk?
> >It would seem to me that the very least that should be done is provide with
> the sale of any blue-ring a single sheet of paper describing the risks of
> injury or death through a bite and identifying the toxin (tetrodotoxin) so
> that medical personnel would have some idea how to treat a bite - or at
> least know how to get information quickly by calling a poison hotline. I
> suppose one could go so far as to provide information on how to treat a
> bite, but that might open up liability issues."
> end quote
> Paul Holthus, > Executive Director, > Marine Aquarium Council
> 3035 Hibiscus Dr., Honolulu, Hawaii USA 96815
> Phone: (+1 808) 923-3254 Fax: (+1 808) 923-6023
> Email: paul.holthus@aquariumcouncil.org
> Website: www.aquariumcouncil.org
>
Good for you Paul. I'd even go further and encourage people to leave off with keeping Cephalopods period... they require specialized care, species-tank set-ups, and have naturally very short life spans (generally under two years...). You could write a piece that would not popularize their keeping (and hopefully not be vilified for it), and I'd gladly add my name to such statements.
Bob Fenner

2 questions, follow ups
Hi Bob!, PF again:
First off, I posted to the forum a while ago, but never heard back from
you on something. 
<Really? Semi-disturbing... always think I get most all sent to me... and respond to... in a timely fashion... or at least timely>
Would your contacts in the Hawaiian exotic fish
collection industry be able to collect E. scolopes? (Here's the Ceph
Database URL for info on them:
http://www.nhm.ac.uk/hosted_sites/tcp/Escolopes.html). The reason I ask
is that the only source I've located deals only with University level
researchers. I've also been asked about this by some of the members of
the Ceph mailing list, including Dr. James Wood. Apparently there's a
demand for them on the research level, and Dr. Woods feels they would
make good aquarium pets as well. Any info appreciated.
<Have never known the Hawaiian waters to collect this species (mostly a couple of species of genus Octopus are (misused in the trade hailing from the U.S. west coast...). Would seek out this species as an earnest possible culturist, hobbyist-scientist-experimenter from the folks at the given site>
and secondly, did your friend in Eugene ever get back to you about the
local sushi scene? I haven't heard word one from him, and was wondering
if you had. Susie (my wife) and I are going to be house hunting in that
area in about a week and a half, and we were wondering if there was
someplace we should or shouldn't miss on our quest for sushi.
<Ah, the quest... no, don't recall hearing back.>
Thanks again!
Hope to see more of you in the forums
Mike
<Hope to see you there Pinkster. Bob Fenner>

Re: 2 questions, follow ups
Thanks for getting back to me so soon, I thought you'd need a day to recover
from your trip, I know I do when I travel.
<<Can't wait... or will fall even further behind... yikesville>
> <Really? Semi-disturbing... always think I get most all sent to me... and
> respond to... in a timely fashion... or at least timely>
no biggy, we all get distracted, I usually refer to that as life. :)
<<No my friend... life is all the opposite of distractions>>
> <Have never known the Hawaiian waters to collect this species (mostly a
> couple of species of genus Octopus are (misused in the trade hailing from
> the U.S. west coast...). Would seek out this species as an earnest possible
> culturist, hobbyist-scientist-experimenter from the folks at the given site>
I don't understand the given site reference, if you mean Woods Hole (IIRC),
they state very bluntly that if you're not doing research on a university
level to please don't bother them. That's why I was asking about your contacts
in Hawai'i. It's my understanding that they can be collected by simply walking
around the shallows in the evening. If I had the means, I'd go do it myself,
the hard part is keeping me out of the water.
<<Hmm, never seen this cephalopod there... Would ask other folks on the Ceph pages/sites. Bob Fenner>

Re: 2 questions, follow ups
> Thanks for getting back to me so soon, I thought you'd need a day to recover
> from your trip, I know I do when I travel.
> <<Can't wait... or will fall even further behind... yikesville>
I know what you mean. Sometimes I dread returning from vacations. My record is
800 emails in 11 days, luckily though, few were anything I need to respond too.
<<Yeeikes, time to abandon that addr. (at least for listservs) and not leave a forwarding one>>
> no biggy, we all get distracted, I usually refer to that as life. :)
> <<No my friend... life is all the opposite of distractions>>
see what you mean, I see work as a distraction from my life ;), but don't tell
my employer that
<<My lips are sealed>>
> <<Hmm, never seen this cephalopod there... Would ask other folks on the Ceph
> pages/sites. Bob Fenner>
That is odd. From what I've read they're supposed to be very common, esp. in
very shallow waters. They are nocturnal though, and masters of camouflage (like
many cephs). Hmm. I'll post to the Ceph list and see what they have to say.
<<The best idea... Perhaps someone there can lend you insights as to how to secure specimens>>
As always, thank you so much for you time, I think it's a miraculous thing to
live in an era when contacting an expert is as simple as it is.
The Pinkster
<<Hmm, expert... previously married and flow under pressure. Bob Fenner>>

Re: 2 questions, follow ups
> I know what you mean. Sometimes I dread returning from vacations. My record
> is
> 800 emails in 11 days, luckily though, few were anything I need to respond
> too.
> <<Yeeikes, time to abandon that addr. (at least for listservs) and not leave
> a forwarding one>>
it's my work addy (the one I'm using right now), mostly they were of the
Jane/Joe Schmoe is now in charge of some workgroup I've never heard of before
in some place I hope to God I never have to visit, let alone work at. Many egos
in need of stroking, sadly.
<<<The way of this world my friend>>>
> > no biggy, we all get distracted, I usually refer to that as life. :)
> > <<No my friend... life is all the opposite of distractions>>
> > <<Hmm, never seen this cephalopod there... Would ask other folks on the
> Ceph
> > pages/sites. Bob Fenner>
I've posted to the Ceph mailing list, someone else mentioned them at reef
central on the Ceph list there, but he can't find anyone else who has them
either. The NRCC does, but since I'm not a researcher, I'm SOL.
<<<Maybe not so Fish Outta Luck... do have whoever there contact me... I will vouch that you are indeed a researcher... as you legitimately are... and ask for their assistance in helping you secure a specimen. Please refer said person/s to our site.>>>
> That is odd. From what I've read they're supposed to be very common, esp. in
> very shallow waters. They are nocturnal though, and masters of camouflage
> (like
> many cephs). Hmm. I'll post to the Ceph list and see what they have to say.
> <<The best idea... Perhaps someone there can lend you insights as to how to
> secure specimens>>
> As always, thank you so much for you time, I think it's a miraculous thing
> to
> live in an era when contacting an expert is as simple as it is.
> The Pinkster
> <<Hmm, expert... previously married and flow under pressure. Bob Fenner>>
:groan:
just for that one, I'm sharing this one with you:
While rereading CMA I mentioned to my wife that Reggae would be an ideal music
to accompany it, when she asked why, my reply was:
Then I'd be a Rasta Fennerian!
<<<Seems reasonable. Let's roll a big spleef using a whole TFH Mag, smoke da ganga and see Ja! (a large Terebellid polychaete no doubt). Bob F>

Trying to find resources...
I am looking for information on keeping an octopus. I would like to know how easily this can be done and what the life expectancy is for the animal. As well as how safe it is for myself. I find these creatures fascinating and would like to own one myself. Do they require special filtration needs. If you can direct me to someone or a website. Or if you have any info. I would appreciate it. Thanks, Bridgette Wallace
<These are difficult animals at best. Short-lived, potential disaster with inking, will eat anything else in the tank, and too smart for their own good in that escaping and perishing on your rug are real probabilities. Take a look here for more info http://www.wetwebmedia.com/cephalop1.htm -Steven Pro>

Seeking cephalopods
Dear Mr. Fenner,
I have a question and hopefully you have an answer! I understand that you had (or at one point, did) connections with Hawaiian fish and invert collectors. I have been trying to find a source of  Euprymna scolopes. It is a small cephalopod which resembles a cross between an octopus and squid. It's behaviours are most close to cuttlefish though. Here is a link to info and pics on them: http://saltaquarium.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fis.dal.ca%2F%7Eceph%2FTCP%2Fcuttle2.html
If you knew of anyone collecting, or willing to collect this species i would greatly appreciate you letting me know! It seems to be quite common, so why it is not collected is beyond me. I wish ceph's were collected more, as there sure is a demand for them!
<Unfortunately I have never met anyone who has collected this species. Did read James Woods excellent coverage. Am going out to HI next week and will ask friends/associates if they're familiar with, can catch this animal for you. Bob Fenner>
Regards
JGR
P.S. I love your books! I use them so often for references that the conscientious marine Aquarist is in taters with pages missing!
<Yikes!>