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FAQs on Goatfishes, Family Mullidae

Related Articles: Goatfishes

Upeneus tragula in Pulau Redang, Malaysia.

re: Suggestions for Additions to my Tank; lg. SW stkg.       8/29/15
What species of goat fish would you recommend?

<See my family and our selection FAQs re on WWM>
I have pretty much read your site regarding ,triggers, rabbits tangs, a couple times over. I have also read on reef central as well. I have also read your site regarding comparability and knew some of my choices could result in a meal for another inhabitant. So much information so hard to make the right choice.
<Ah yes>
You asked why the PhosBan reactor, I use it because I do not use RO/DI water often and took care of my red slime issues in my old tank.
<I see>
What also helped that problem was switching salt mix to Fluval salt mix. That was recommended by a LFS I frequent.
Do you see a problem as my trigger gets bigger that I may have to remove the Melanarus Wrasse to another tank? I have another tank to remove him to if need be.
<The Trigger, this species, should be able to stay here indefinitely>
What hermit crabs other then Dardanus could you recommend to put with this mix of fish?
<None really. I would be/come the clean up crew>
Or aren't there any that won't eventually become food for the Pink Tailed Trigger one it reaches its full size?
<Yes; that and the Wrasse>
Or should I just go with buying a goat fish and skip the other crustaceans all together since the wrasse is a substrate sleeper?
Could the wrasse be in danger from a goat fish if it was sleeping?
<It will not be>
Thanks again. You run an amazing site here.
Kellylynn
<Welcome. BobF>

Goatfish - help/treat?    3/6/13
Bob,
<Dave>
I acquired two small goatfish - one bicolor, one dash-and-dot - about a month ago. I FW dipped them, then placed them in a quarantine tank.
Generally they seemed to have good health, no signs of external disease. I did try a pellet training fast (as per my separate email exchanges with you), for which neither sampled pellets, but I noticed after ending the fast that neither still seemed to be ingesting much food. They both had vigorous response to my feeding, but the dash-and-dot in particular seemed to not eat until I found him dead the other day. He looked incredibly emaciated in the body.
Now I am concerned for the other, I see that it eats and expels most of what I feed (Mysis, brine). It maintains its vigor at feeding time, but looks emaciated.
<Try some chopped up, meaty foods of ingestible size that sink... mix these w/ the pellet offerings>
I see in Scott Michael's book there is mention that they are prone to intestinal worms. I do have PraziPro on hand.
<Perhaps a good idea for a treatment... addn. of this to the mix as well>
Do you think that a single 1/2 hour bath, at a concentration of 2.5mg/L, will treat?
<I'd add to the foods>
Or am I wrong to conclude that intestinal worms would be the common scourge for these two specimens?
<Not a wrong "conclusion". A very likely possibility. All animal/groups have their respective parasite fauna; and it is often the case that these "get a leg up" on their hosts when the latter are overly stressed.
"Successful" parasites of course don't kill their hosts, but... there are all manner of range/diversity of commensal- to mutual- to parasit-ism/s, successful and not in the world. Bob Fenner>
Re: Goatfish - help/treat?

Bob, thanks! I will go the feeding route. Is it possible to over-medicate? EG, if I add one drop of PraziPro to one frozen cube of brine shrimp?
<It is possible, but not likely... this compound has a wide range of efficacy, safety>
Thanks for confirming whether my speculation is possible. Do you think it is further a possibility that one specimen had the internal parasite at acquisition, and transmitted it to the other during this time?
<Not likely transmitted... some, particularly worm species, have a good deal of specificity/hosts>
For now, I have stopped trying pellets. Not a single one ingested for this goat. I'll try to get him back to feeding/health before I try another trial.
<Real good. B>
Re: Goatfish - help/treat?    3/6/13

Or could it be something far simpler!?
I just tried a frozen brine feeding (dethawed) without the Kent Zoe & Zoecon soak. Nothing spit out. Perhaps I soaked too much, or these products are not amenable to the goats.
<Could be>
 How frustrating that I didn't try this as an experiment before losing the other goat. I will see how the bicolor takes to feedings without these products for a few days before moving on to Prazi. Trial and error...at the expense of my poor fish...
<Steady on here. B>
Re: Goatfish - help/treat?    3/7/13

Bob,
I was wrong. Goatfish is not swallowing any food, chews up and spits out whatever is offered (that is, if it even samples). I've tried krill, Mysis, brine, and a marine cuisine frozen cube mix that all other fish seem to take to.
I did some Googling, and see this is reported on goatfish occasionally. I did find a report of this issue (including to death) in the Chromis FAQs. I understand this to be an exception given their hardy, adaptable nature in captivity. This is frustrating, I wonder what else could be a problem in my tank that is contributing to this.
pH runs low (8.0...currently being raised)...
<Not that low>
water changes and a piece of live rock that I have had for almost a year in this QT, nitrates are 20ppm whereas nitrites/amm are undetectable. It seems there has to be an environmental factor within my system that is driving this, given the other goat's death. Maybe the forced fast associated with pellets induced an irreversible hunger strike? Hm, observation will continue.
Hope he takes up eating. I will try garlic again.
<I'd summarily dip and move this specimen to the main/display tank. Not likely that it has anything catching, nor will it recover where it is presently. B>

Now Mullid beh.  2/25/13
Hey Bob, does a Bicolor Goatfish darken in color as they age like a Maroon Clown?
Thanks
<Not permanently that I've ever encountered, no>
re: Hello everyone...

Oh Ok.  When I Google image it all the larger ones are a dark maroon. The one here in the store is bright red... Weird.
<Mmm, nope... its nature>

Fish ID   6/5/12
Just went on a trip to BVI's saw lots of cool fish and caught some too.
<Color me jealous.>
 I caught lots of small groupers and parrotfish and also the one in the attached picture. It's some sort of goatfish. Wondering if you had a better id than I can find. Either way a really pretty fish.
<An unhappy Pseudupeneus maculatus aka Spotted Goatfish>
<Jordan>

Re: Red Sea aquarium fish selection... Trigger names, Id... Goatfish sys.,  - 7/2/08 I'm glad you agreed on the Blue Throat trigger idea, I think they are cool fish. Quick question for you though, I read on WWM that they are endemic to the Red Sea, yet sites like LiveAquaria sell them from Hawaii. What's up with that? No need to get too technical, I'm just curious, I want to make sure I purchase the correct version. <Mmm, there are two species... of different distribution... with the same name. See here: http://wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/triggers/index.htm The Sufflamen is the one you're looking for... from the Red Sea, western Indian Ocean... the Xanthichthys is the Pacific... including the Hawaiian Isles. An ex. of the difficulty, lack of clarity of common appellations> The goatfish I mentioned, I'm glad you replied back positively about it, I'm looking forward to having one. Curious though, will they be ok in about a 1 inch crushed coral substrate? <Mmm, I encourage you to not use this type, size, depth of material period... For the system and the mullid, look to very fine/soft coral sand... and read re on WWM> I don't want the real small particle stuff because I'm afraid my water will just be too cloudy, <Mmm, not so...> I was thinking the next size up, the stuff that cant really float around in the water, but not much bigger than regular sand. If this is totally inappropriate for a goatfish I'll probably just stick to the small sand, I'd like to do whatever I can that will get me away from having to manually stir the sand myself from time to time. Quick question for you that I just want your opinion on... regarding metal halides lighting. I'm planning on going with a 250w 13K MegaChrome Marine, double ended metal halide. But the more and more I read about Kelvin ratings, the more unsure I get of what I want... Basically, what lighting temperature do you feel looks best for a FOWLR? <Mmm... for the Red Sea? A dear friend, Pablo Tepoot, of New Life Enterprises, asked me for images to make his spectacular photo montage that he has for his trade display booth as well as a large wall in his Homestead, FLA home... For the color of the water... Something in the 10-14k K range is about right> If you recall, I'm going to have 3 or so bright yellow B/F but also a Purple tang and a Emperor angel, both of which are not yellow and much darker, I'd like their colors to stand out as well. I've been reading that you want low Kelvin ratings for making yellow stand out and high Kelvin rating to make the blues stand out, however, I'm just planning on one MH with no other light supplementation, so what would in your opinion be the best lighting to go with? I realize this is a topic for much debate, I'm just looking for your personal opinion on it. <Understood> This is the light I'm speaking of, by the way. http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem~action~view~ idProduct~MB6612~idCategory~FILTBUMHDETW~category~Saltwater_Aquarium_Supplies- Lighting-Bulbs-Metal_Halide-Double_Ended-250_Watts~vendor~.html <I see> So I just finished The CMA tonight, one of the other books I ordered was Reef Invertebrates by you and Calfo, I'll be starting that tonight. I'm especially interested in the part dedicated to refugiums. <Heeee! The original idea for the work was to promote others success in our hobby interest by encouraging the use of these live sumps... I told Anthony (Calfo) that we'd never sell the work with this as the focus or... title (!)... so we settled on Reef Invertebrates (sans Cnidarians which we intend/ed to make another volume)... but did manage to sneak in about a quarter of the work as Refugiums... You will enjoy, gain by its reading. Cheers, Bob Fenner>

Clowns Vs. Goats (Sounds like a B movie)  - 5/17/2006 Hello, <Hi.> I have read all your articles and Q&A about the Goatfish. <Cool.> I have put one in my marine tank a few days ago - he's only a little one, and yes, like all the others who have put goatfish in their tanks, he's an amazing fish - eating & cleaning up the bottom of the tank. <Great.> The only problem I'm finding, is he's losing a bit of colour, which I think is because he has been 'stressed' by 2 Ocellaris Clowns I also have in the tank - the other fish tend to leave him alone. <Uh-oh.> Is there any reason that the clowns (usually a very placid fish) would take a total dislike to this fella? <Clowns are still damsels people forget that, sounds as if you have a choice to make......if the aggression continues.> Regards, David Bruce. <Adam Jackson.>

Re: Clowns Vs. Goats  - 05/17/2006 Thanks very much for that <Anytime.> Really appreciate your time to respond to my question. <No worries...> Looks like I'll have to swap goatfish for something else (botheration!) <Sorry to be the messenger of bad news.> Regards, David Bruce <Adam J.>

A herd of goatfish? Can goatfish be housed in the same (large, of course) tank? thanks. Reuben <Yes, this family's members are very social. Bob Fenner>

Goatfish Hello Bob, I saw your interesting goatfish article. I am a scientist interested in this group. A perusal of the aquarium supply places mainly results in about 4 species from the pacific (yellow, bicolor, P multifasciatus). I am interested in getting other species. Do you know any suppliers (for example from the Caribbean, or Red sea). Temperate species would also be of interest. Thanks Mike <Mmm, will bcc a bunch of friends/associates in the marine livestock wholesale business here in hopes they will respond. As far as I'm aware, no one specifically targets mugilids for the trade in the tropical West Atlantic (no steady demand) and Red Sea imports (other than some expensive "stock" species like some butterflies, angels...) are limited (by economic restraints) to the U.S.. Please make it known if this batch of folks don't get around to you and I'll send my note/net out further. Bob Fenner>

Re: Goatfish Thanks, I did find a place for 2 Carib. Species. <Ahh, good... and delicious! Bob Fenner>

- Goatfish Diet - Hello! I was wondering if you can give me some additional info on the Mexican and the Bicolor Goatfish. I have been doing some research on both and read this page: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/Goatfshart.htm , which is very informative. I'd like to put one of the Mexican or Bicolor Goatfish in a 220 gallon FOWLR tank, but I have some really nice encrusting sponge growing.  All that I have read seems to imply that they have a lot of acceptable foods on their menu. <Sponges aren't a typical part of that diet, these fish prefer meaty foods - small fish should be worried about.> What are the odds that I can have one of those Goatfish and get to keep the encrusting sponge? <I think pretty good.> Thanks, Rich <Cheers, J -- >

- Goatfish Complicated? - Dear Bob <Actually, JasonC today...> I am considering getting a yellow goatfish for my 120 fish only aquarium. I was doing some research and Dr. Fosters and Smith labeled them as "expert only", obviously meaning they are very hard to keep. However, your site says they are all very hardy. Are the yellows truly that hard, or is there just some special need they have that many are not aware of? <No expert or special needs that I am aware of... these fish have a zippy metabolism and tend to dart around a lot... get pretty big as adults, most the size of a shoe, sometimes more. Will vacuum up anything that fits in its mouth including small fish [neon gobies, etc.] and can fly out of the tank with ease. Sensitive to formalin. Otherwise, a very sturdy fish.> Thanks ~Justin <Cheers, J -- >

- Goatfish -   I've thought about the goatfish but I've run it a problem. The yellow goatfish is said to be hard to care for and the bicolor goatfish is only recommended in tanks with non-aggressive fish. <I wouldn't agree with either of those premises. Goatfish come in two flavors, ready to go or dead. They really are quite hardy and well able to get out of harm's way - they are very fast swimmers.> I know there are probably more kinds of goatfish but I never see them for sale. Are there any other fish that you would recommend? <Give this page a read: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/Goatfshart.htm > Thanks again, Andy <Cheers, J -- >

Red Sea Yellow Goatfish Hi Guys, As always thanks for all the information you share and all of your wisdom imparted to us. Just a quick question......I have a 2 month old 125 Gallon FO (with some hermit and red legged crabs) tank. Last week I added a 2 inch yellow goatfish, a diamond goby and 2 small regal tangs (after catching and removing 13 assorted damsels which were used for cycling the tank). I've also done a partial water change and all the parameters seem to be fine. The only problem is my beautiful bright yellow goatfish has lost its color and is looking dull and even has some blackness to it. It appears to be okay and foraging about the tank, what do you think might be the problem and what can I do?  Thanks Howard Cushnir <Sounds like he is stressed from the move, new tank, new environment, new tank mates, and such. Keep an eye on your water quality. Check out our section on disease  http://wetwebmedia.com/marine/maintenance/index.htm If he starts exhibiting other signs of disease I would quarantine him. If it is possible to get a digital picture of him, feel free to send it to us so we can take a look. Probably nothing to worry about, he should come around eventually. Gage>

Goatfish Size I wanted a goatfish until I was told that it would get too big for a 90 gallon tank. Is there a goatfish that will fit into my tank? <Everyone that I am aware of gets to at least one foot.> The Mullids seem to get too big (1 foot) according to what I read on this sight. If so, what is the minimum tank size for this fish? <180 gallons> Thanks for helping me choose fish that will live long and be comfortable in my tank. <Have a nice night. -Steven Pro>

Goatfish in a Reef? Hello Anthony, <greetings friend> Thank you for the speedy/courteous reply to my previous email about sand sifting critters.  <quite welcome> You mentioned using a goatfish as a sand sifter for my 90 gal reef tank.  <a very inexpensive, fascinating and efficient critter for some larger reef aquaria> I have done research on the goatfish, and some have stated, "Use caution when putting a goatfish in a reef setting." Is there any credence to that statement?  <absolutely... they create a ruckus in smaller aquaria, they may eat small shrimp/crabs and they should not be kept in tanks with small precariously placed coral or many LPS species as the goatfish do nudge and topple some corals in their endless quest for food (the thing that makes them so efficient in a soft coral tank, clams, epoxied reef display, etc> Would placing a goatfish endanger my inverts (shrimps, starfishes, hermits crabs, and snails) and corals? I am interested in getting a small (~ 3") Hawaiian Bicolor goatfish (Parupeneus barberinoides ) or a Yellow Goatfish (Parupeneus cyclostomus). Aside from the goatfish, what other livestock would you recommend for good sand sifting/stirring? <I would try to put as little as possible in to allow the most diverse sand fauna to develop. Try just one or two white "Linckia" sand starfish and then insure strong water movement and aggressive protein skimming to prevent detritus from accumulating. This will reduce/prevent the need for most detritivores if done correctly and preserves the diversity of the sand be. Anthony Calfo> Thanks. Dan

Goatfish Hello, <greetings, Anthony Calfo in your service> I saw your pic of the day, the Goatfish, so I decided to do a little reading about him on your site. I see that he will consume shrimp and fish smaller than himself. Let me ask you this: Do you think he would eat a cleaner shrimp or a neon goby, or do you think he would recognize those guys as useful friends? <in the confines of captivity... yes, I think it is an unwarranted risk> Do you think it would make a difference if the Goatfish were a "she" instead ;-)Thanks for the info! Dale M. <I plead the fifth amendment. Anthony>

Which goatfish? hi, I am planning on a goatfish, but before I want to know your suggestions. I have a 90 g. tank with LR and the following; 1. 3" Picasso trigger 2. 4" panther grouper 3. 4" harlequin Tuskfish 4. 4" yellow tang 5. 12" zebra moray This will be my last fish on the tank, the goatfish, since I want it because of the benefits in stirring and cleaning the bottom (sand). Which, and what size of a goatfish do you recommend me? thanks a lot once again AJ <A small one, about four inches (can be five...) to start with, of a species that stays (for the family) relatively small. Our coverage: http://wetwebmedia.com/Goatfshart.htm Bob Fenner>

Toxic? Goatfish Hi, its me again, I call my LFS about the goatfish and he told me that goatfish can be toxic towards tankmates. <Mildly psychogenic... not really toxic.> Tell me your thoughts about this, since I really want 1 of these fishes, and if they are toxic, explain what can they do to harm tankmates or even me LOL <Mmm. No worries my friend. Bob Fenner> thanks so much for your patience AJ

Scavengers with a Porcupine Puffer? Hi Bob, I enjoy your site thoroughly and I am writing because I have a question regarding clean-up in my tank. I have a 125 gallon fish only that presently has an 18 inch moray eel I bought him under the label "assorted" moray; he looks like the "whitespot" moray in Scott Michael's Marine Fishes guide) and a 6 inch porcupine puffer. With the big mess the porcupine makes with feeding, I was wondering if there are any scavengers or other means of taking care of the mess that you could recommend. Thanks a lot in advance. <Thanks for writing. Do have a favorite given your two "show fishes"... a family of choices for that matter. The Mullids or Goatfishes: http://wetwebmedia.com/Goatfshart.htm and in checking through the associated FAQs file you'll find other folks comments who have employed them. Very active, prodigious cleaner uppers, smart, fast enough to hopefully avoid the puffer and eel... Bob Fenner> -Patrick-

Goatfish Hi. I read your page about goat fish and thought it was really good. I live in Maui and of course would like to keep goat fish myself I was wondering about something that you didn't say is what size tank is advisable for them. What are advisable tank mates for them? <Think I'll start adding these two questions, inputs to all survey articles. For small species of Mullids, at least a sixty gallon, and for the larger species (ones that likely exceed twelve inches in total length) a hundred and twenty five gallons. The tankmate selection possibilities are very large. They don't bother any but the smallest of fishes and most larger ones leave them alone (they're smart and quick). Small crustaceans are likely in trouble (crabs, shrimps) if the Goat is hungry> Could you keep them with arc eye hawk fish, Paracirrhites arcatus? <Yes, if this fish is more than "mouth-size"> If I was able to I would have the tank half live rock with dead coral and the other half with the sand and few small rocks here and there, I would keep the fish in a 100 gallon tank in not that then a 55 gallon tank. Of course I would keep other fish in with it. Would a yellow tang be okay? <Yes, a good choice> How about a saddle wrasse?  <Another excellent Hawaiian fish> Any suggestions would be appreciated. If none of these fish that I have asked about are good then what fish are would you recommend for a beginner that can be kept with a arc hawk fish? I only want to keep Hawaiian species. Thank you for any info you be able to give me. <Most native fishes that do well in captivity themselves will go well with this Hawkfish. Please take a look over the Hawaiian section of "A Fishwatcher's Guide...." posted here: http://wetwebmedia.com/hifwgv1.htm Be chatting. Bob Fenner>

Go Go Goatfish! Dr. Bob, Hey, no questions today. Just a quick note to say that I followed-up on your advise to add goatfish to my tank. They arrived last Thursday night, two 3-inch specimens. As advertised, they acclimated quickly, and in two days had thoroughly - and I mean THOROUGHLY - cleaned, stirred, and sifted the top layer of sand.  <Yes, amazingly prodigious animals> In fact, my only concern now is that my tank (with limited live rock and new sand) will not produce enough bugs and food leftovers to keep them happy. Only downside is that my friends thought they were more interesting than my shark and angel fish. Argh, what an insult! <Such is life> By the way, I ordered them from the Marine Center, a sponsor of WetWebMedia. Pretty impressed with those folks. Poor Web site performance, and not the gottahaveitnow? immediate customer service response that us e-people are accustomed to - but they?re aces on sending well quarantined, fat, healthy fish. <Hmm, with your permission I'll send along your valuable note> Finally, a huge, gargantuan THANK YOU for sending the draft copy of Aquarium Sharks & Rays. What a major void that publication will fill!  <Ah, very good to hear. A very useful work for sure> We are so privileged to have someone so committed to the hobby. If only fish could nominate for the Nobel Prize... J.D. Hill <Thank you for your kind words my friend. Bob Fenner>

Re: Go Go Goatfish! (and a note to Marine Center) Of course, feel free to share with Marine Center. It's not that they don't have good follow-up, it's just that it takes several hours (or next day) for them to respond. How many times have you received e-mails from people who freak out because you can't respond immediately? That's the nature and benefit of the Web -- instant access to information. <Agreed, at least in terms of perception> When people decide it's time for a fish, they want it now. Ultimate impulse buy. If they are having problems with their beloved new acquisition, immediately is way too slow. Case in point, I originally ordered the goatfish from ffexpress on a Tuesday. They called me Wednesday to inform me that they were out of stock, but would have more in from Hawaii and could ship for delivery on Saturday. Other than the fact that I had issues with not giving the fish time to recover from their journey or giving them even a token quarantine, I was really bugged that I couldn't get them when promised. So I promptly turned around and added two goats to another existing order placed with Marine Center. <I see> Marine Center's Web site has loaded very slowly in the past. Tried it this morning and it's running quite well. Maybe just had a few bad days there. J.D. Hill <Once again, thank you. Will send along these notes. Bob Fenner>

Goatfish Fields Forever Two thumbs up on the goat fish. Very cool fish! <Yes, very industrious, and many are good looking to boot. Bob Fenner> Thanks again. J --

Goatfish trivia Robert, I would be interested in learning more about the following subject (I quote you): "There is one other aspect of Goatfish biology that merits mentioning, the strange case of their ichthyoalleinotoxic property. Yes, these fishes are known to be hallucinogenic! No, I'm not making this up, or smoking Goatfish or anything else; the Goatfishes do induce odd sensory perceptions during certain seasons, and are consumed knowingly. Not only have I read of such goings on, but have munched on them myself in the Yucatan (Mexico), Moorea (French Polynesia), and the Visayas (Philippines), among other places I can't seem to recall, with subsequent 'tingling' feelings and a sense of general self-satisfaction. Hmmm." I have something you might be interested in, as a possible trade for your knowledge and experience(s): a video of Norfolk Island natives preparing and cooking "Dreamfish" (Kyphosus sp). Interested? email me, -Mark, Indiana <Intriguing... throws me back to the late sixties when friends (some still work in the Public Aquarium field) became card-carrying "religious" members to grow magic mushrooms legally... Don't have much more to relate than what you can find easily via a computer search bibliography... i.e. no special recipes. Getting high on Rudderfish!? Bob Fenner>

Re: goatfish trivia Robert, More specifically, I was interested in the Latin names of the fish you consumed in the different locations, the part(s) of the fish consumed, the amounts consumed, any particular cooking methods, and/or any distinctive euphoric effects. Were all the fish taken in the Summer seasons? <Gosh, years back... early seventies... in the Yucatan. Am sure they were Mullids, boiled entirely, and we only consumed the skeletal muscle... though I think the locals ate the entrails as well... fishes about seven inches in length... no spices added to the water... And the effects... slight tingling of the extremities, light-headedness, "a mellow feeling"... sorry, that's about all I recall> Thanks, Mark PS: I tried a search for "ichthyoalleinotoxic" and could only come up with your site. Are you sure that is the correct spelling? <That doesn't look right... the word with plants is "allelopathogenic"... attach ichthyo in front of this and give that a go. Bob Fenner>

Go for a Goat Bob, I have a thick green algae growing in my crushed coral substrate of my 55 gal reef tank. I previously purchased and Orange Diamond Goby to stir the substrate (and he initially did a great job), but he kept getting thinner and eventually died. All of the other fish in the tank are fine. What would be another good alternative to keeping the substrate stirred so that algae like this will not form? Are there any special feeding requirements for livestock that would help with this function? I am currently doing water changes and siphoning out as much of the algae as possible, but it just comes back within a few days. Thanks for your help! >> Hmm, how about (for the fish family of the day to spotlight) one of the smaller species of Goatfishes? (family Mullidae), they're real go getters in terms of stirring up the bottom (though they will inhale shrimps, small crabs...). Otherwise, or in addition, I'd look into a couple of white sand-sifting starfish... Bob Fenner

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