26/02/10 Stumped.... Forcipiger hlth., troubleshooting
Hi everyone.
<Hi Jay>
I am quite confused about medicating a Long nose Butterfly.
<Ok>
I recently treated my long nose with Quinine Sulfate for Ich and after about three weeks it's finally gone.
<In Quarantine? Or in-tank? If you did this in tank, then the Crypt will not be gone>
From a previous email one of the representatives from WWM recommended that I treat with a product called PraziPro because my Butterfly was flashing (he said, based on what I told him, he probably has gill flukes).
<Ok>
I started treating with the Prazi and ever since then my BF has increased rapid gill movement and twitches a lot.
<Mmmm>
If in fact he did have flukes, I thought the Prazi was supposed to help kill them.....why are they getting worse?
<Are they flukes? If you remove the fish and freshwater dip him, you might see one or both of two things that would give you a better idea: If he stops flashing afterwards, then it is probably flukes. If you can see specks on the base of the dip container (usually white, so a dark dip container might be prudent), then they also could be flukes. Removal of these and placed under a cheap microscope will confirm. If neither of these happen, then it is probably not flukes>.
He has been clear of spots for over two weeks
<Could have just cycled off... the fish may still be infested with Crypt.. in the gills, thus the heavy breathing & flashing>
and I proceeded with the full treatment recommended for QS. Please help!
<Another possibility here... medication in the water can/ does irritate fishes, to the point where they exhibit 'flashing' behaviour. You might find that with the removal of the medication and improved water quality this will ease off>.
Thank you folks
<No problem, Simon>
Re: 26/02/10 Stumped.... Forcipiger hlth.    2/28/10
<Hi Jay>
Yes he is in a 40g quarantine tank.
<Ok>
I am going to lose my long nose, this morning I woke up and his gills are moving very fast and he's just in the middle of the tank gliding in the water.
<Mmm, don't give up hope. What are your tests for ammonia/ nitrite? Is the fish feeding?>
I also have an Auriga BF in the same tank which I previously treated for Oodinium and he is fine but my long
nose is not.
<Mmm, you have been treating for three different things? Likely only one was the cause/ problem here.. a pointer to the fact that correct diagnosis is vitally important to do BEFORE any fishes are medicated>
Seems like ever since I dosed with PraziPro a second time, all things got worse. What do you think?
<I think you have been using too many medications, without certain knowledge of what you are treating. I would remove all with some carbon & a skimmer, keep ammonia/ nitrite down and try to get the fish feeding, see if he can recover while you consider your next step>
I also use baking soda to buffer the water and ever since I put it in, there's like a smoke in the water.
<You've used too much, this will not help the fish breathing - can irritate it. This should precipitate out and the water will clear. . maybe a large water change w/ out the baking soda might be appropriate. I never do this in quarantine anyway, because a higher pH means that any ammonia in the water is in it's more toxic form. Just standard salinity will be fine, maybe in this case lowering it a couple of points might help the fish w/ osmosis>
I can see this in the flow from the filter
under the tank light. Is this unusual?
<Posted. Simon>
Re: 27/02/10 Re: Stumped....   2/28/10
<Hi Jay>
Ok. My nitrite and ammonia are zero.
<That is good news, and makes this much easier to manage>
Both of them were feeding but now only the Raccoon is. The Auriga looks at the food and grabs it but doesn't swallow it.
<Mmm, maybe some damage from the medications..>
I am going to do what you said but I just don't understand why they're breathing fast constantly.
<Why do you have these separated from the main system? Are you some way into a 'fallow' period for crypt? If not, if there is no improvement with the removal of the meds from the system I would consider returning the one
at least to the display>
And they both had one gill closed at certain times. I've done everything I could at this point. Hopefully it's
just the baking soda and it's harmless.
<You might find with the removal of the med from the water and a water change things improve>.
Thank you
<No problem, Simon>
Re: 27/02/10 Re: Stumped....  3/1/10
<Jay>
Yes I'm letting my tank be without any life.
<Ok, don't put the fish back yet then>
And I did remove the meds and that's when I noticed both fish only using one gill to breathe.
<Mmmm>
After a freshwater dip they seem to be full of life for a good day. Then the rapid breathing starts again.
<So the dip provided some relief? This is a clue.. I would dip again,
watch, and see if anything identifiable comes out in the dip container>
The Prazi pro did not work so I am assuming this isn't a fluke.
<Mmmm, maybe>
So the only other possibility this is leaning toward is the start of Ich or Velvet right?
<No, there are others... as posted.. incl. the meds themselves, the baking soda..>
I just dosed another of Quinine yesterday morning. Do you think I should keep this up or just skip on the dosing and leave the water be?
<You have not yet diagnosed the problem, and you state these meds have not yet worked, so I would cease for the moment. Your nitrite & ammonia are zero, so you have some time here...I would cease the medications, do the
water change, try to nurse the fish back to health..get it to feed.
Freshwater dip the fish and watch.. if this provides relief then it is likely not crypt or velvet as these are too far embedded for freshwater to have an effect. You may have already treated the initial cause here with your previous administrations. Simon>.
Re: 01/03/10 Re: Stumped.... Forcipiger hlth.  3/2/10
<Hello Jay>
Ok thanks a lot for getting back, I am going to do this now.
<Please write back with your results, Simon>
02/03/10 Re: Stumped. Multiple medications, no diagnosis, not listening, QT tanks. Forcipiger, other BF hlth.
Simon,
<Hello Jay..>
My Raccoon is better and swimming around more. <Good> My Auriga will not eat no matter what I do, the tank was left medicine free like you suggested for three days and no change.
<Impossible. I suggested this on the 26th Feb, and again on the 1st of March. You then dose QS on the 1st of March AFTER I suggest you remove it. It is now the 3rd and you posted this yesterday on the 2nd>.
He's wasting away and I just feel it's something more than malnutrition.
<Yes, the fish is stressed out. It is probably your own actions, NOT some unknown and mysterious pathogen causing this. People always want to find some other solution that means it is not their own fault, but invariably there is no other solution. What size is this quarantine tank?>
About five days ago he was eating like a pig then all of a sudden his bones start showing (the time frame in which he went from healthy to unhealthy was unbelievable, I almost felt like I was seeing things). I have tried Mysis, algae sheets, algae tabs, brine shrimp, angel/butterfly formula, Spirulina and omega brine, you name it. He still goes for it but he doesn't swallow it.
<Damage from all the medications you've been chucking in, probably. Keep trying to get it to feed, with just Mysis, and try to keep yourself as small as possible. A giant hovering over a small QT tank is enough to stress anyone out>
And I also can't understand for the life of me why it still looks like there's smoke in my water. I didn't add any baking soda like you suggest and I STILL have water that looks like someone took a drag of a cigarette and exhaled into my tank, lol.
<? Your own actions.. and a clue as to why the fish is not feeding. Perhaps set up another QT tank with clean water and move the filters and fish over, acclimated>
Is this harmful to the fish? What could it be from?
<You have been using multiple medications...>
My ammonia is zero, nitrite is
zero and nitrate is below 30ppm, ph is around 8 and salinity is at about .019. <1.019, ok for the minute> Any ideas?
<Posted, or perhaps moving the fish back to the display>
After seeing how the fish reacted without medicine
<When? Never. They have not been without medication for any length of time>
I realize that there is definitely something going on. <Me too> So I went ahead and treated with PraziPro again because at this point, all symptoms lead to gill flukes.
<?? Did you freshwater dip these like you were advised to try and check? I told you that chucking medications willy-nilly into the tank could easily be your problem here, and what do you do? You chuck some more in, and not just one but two! Problems are not always unseen parasites or bacteria but quite often are the result of aquarists own actions. And you wonder why your water is smoky. Would you have much of an appetite if the air you were breathing was full of chemicals? Right now you have a starving Butterfly and a mixture of Quinine Sulphate and PraziPro in your tank. This is madness, and a pre-cursor for disaster.>
Since PraziPro is considered a very non-stressful medication I figured it would be ok on the fish.
<But your fish are sick, and you don't know why. You are taking a crap shoot approach here, and this approach more often that not kills fishes. I warned you about this>
Before I did this I went ahead and called the specialist at the company listed on the PraziPro bottle and he was also
convinced we are dealing with gill flukes.
<Did you put one under a microscope and send him a photograph? No. Did you tell him that you have already tried treating with this twice before and it has not worked? I doubt it>.
The fish have no spots, they're not flashing and the Quinine Sulfate did not help any with slowing down gill movement.
<Why would it?>
At this point, the only symptoms are rapid breathing and twitching/darting.
<They will do this anyway in a QT tank because of the stress, especially in the presence of chemicals! It is likely there are no parasites in there, especially with the cocktail of drugs you have been administering>
Simon, after two weeks of these symptoms, by this time I would see some spots or body slime if this was Velvet or Crypt. Right?
<Oh, dear. I repeat my previous advice to you and well see where we go. The biggest danger to this fish here (since ammonia/ nitrite are both zero) is the lack of food. This should be your priority. Fishes often will lose their appetite in conditions of stress and in the presence of meds. You need to remove this stress from the fish and get it to feed, otherwise it will die. It is that simple. Do this by stopping the medications, giving it some more space if possible, maybe moving back to the display via a freshwater dip. I repeat, again, the presence of medication in the water can also show these symptoms on fishes. You are your own worst enemy here. Calm down, think clearly, improve the conditions for the fish and get them to feed>
When my fish had velvet before it's almost like they "go nuts" and after about four days of that they die rather fast. This just doesn't seem to be similar to that of Velvet symptoms.....through my experience anyway. I'd like to have your input again.
<Please stop thinking about parasites, YOU are the problem. This fish needs food. Feed it>.
Thanks so much
<No problem, Simon>
Re: 02/03/10 Re: Stumped. Multiple medications, no diagnosis, not listening, ...
<Jay>
Wow, way to go Simon! With all that pessimism in the last email I feel hopeless and all motivation has gone down the tubes. I guess the thin Auriga will just have to die, I refuse to buy another QT tank.
<I have given you a couple of options that do not involve buying a new tank. Shall I repeat them again? Ok, here we go... 1) Remove the med, improve the conditions and get the fish to feed in QT. 2) Move the fish to the display and get it to feed there.>
I didn't pay enough money for the fish to put more money into another tank. I did everything I could do (for me).
<No, you did not. First, your lack of quarantine in the first place has introduced the parasites, followed by your 'shotgun' approach to treating with various meds without a diagnosis, followed lastly by your failure to take the advice you were given>
Thanks for the input, next time be more optimistic with someone whose asking for your advice.
<Jay, I spent a long time giving you advice here, and was happy to, over a period of days. This advice you have ignored. I have to ask myself, and you, what is the point in coming back for advice time and again if you don't bother to follow it? Am I wasting my time?>
Otherwise, like this particular situation, all goes down the tubes with your showering of negativity.
<Negativity, no. I was trying (in a blunt manner, since you had not listened up to then) to get you to see the truth of what is happening, since tip-toeing around the subject is no good for anyone. I/ we are not here to molly-coddle and be nice to you. We are here to help you with your fish problems.>
Have a good one
<Thank you, Simon>

Disease Diagnosis   11/14/09 Hello WWM Crew, <Jarred> I am embarrassed to have to write you under these circumstances but I am looking for help diagnosing the problem I have going on here. <No need/cause for embarrassment> First, the background information. I have a 160 gallon tank with 120lbs live rock, a purple tipped anemone, two tank raised clowns and a purple tang. I have had all of this in the tank for about 3 years with zero problems. I felt it was time to add to the tank so I set up a QT tank (not sure if you can call it this, as I put live rock in, fed it with water and some substrate from the main display and let it cycle for over a month now. so really it's just a small 'other tank'). I then went to the LFS and purchased a Saddleback BF and a Raffles BF. After staring at them for almost too long in the tanks at the LFS and talking with an employee (here is where the problem starts), he convinced me that they have had these fish for a few weeks, the water isn't shared with the other thanks, they are eating just fine <Did you see this?> and are essentially quarantined right there in the store. So I took them home, fresh water dipped them and plopped them in my 160 gallon tank, totally ignoring the fact that I had a perfectly good QT tank beside it (yes I know. lesson learned.). Here we are a week later, with the Raffles doing wonderfully - eating happily, swimming around with personality, picking at rocks. even happy to see me when I come around with some food. The Saddleback, however, is doing some things that I am not sure about. Last night, for the first time, I saw him rub on one of the rocks - <Some rubbing behavior is fine> he would line up his fin / gill area, press against it and then do a swoop off of the rock. I only saw him do this twice at that moment, and after watching them for hours, he hasn't done it again. Another thing he did last night was move his mouth open and closed quite a bit, and do some very heavy fast breathing while staying still in the water. He also once in a while does a body shake / shiver. <Also natural> He isn't nearly as active as the Raffles, and doesn't pick at any rocks. <This is bad... this specimen is very thin... has a low index of fitness as we say in fisheries> He also won't eat (I have been feeding Mysis). There are no signs of white specs on him, and he looks totally fine, other than maybe his gills look a little red (see attached photos). I'm thinking I am going to move him to the QT tank, treat the tank with copper <I would not do, use this> (obviously move the LR out before doing this) and if you think it would be a good idea, do 3 - 5 formalin dips on him. <Perhaps one enroute to quarantine> However, I am looking for some sort of confirmation that this is Velvet. <Is not. If so, all your fishes would have contracted it, and likely be dead by now> as I am now thinking that even though all the other fish are fine, they are going to eventually come down with it too. <And your system would be infested> Oh, and one thing I forgot to mention is that when I decided his gills were slightly red, I couldn't believe it as I can't remember the last time I have had water problems in the big tank, but I figured my ammonia or nitrite levels were high. so I did that check and everything is perfect (0 and 0). Nitrate is even fine at just above zero. So this once again confused me (if the water was bad the other fish would be complaining too I would assume). So first things first, based on the pictures and the actions described above, what do you think I am looking at here? <For one, a "bad" specimen... IF it is not too inconvenient, I would simply return it to the store myself> Is it a parasite I can be rid of by copper and formalin treatments? <This regimen will almost certainly kill this fish in its present condition. Even when Chaetodon ephippium, actually all Chaetodontids are in excellent shape, they fare poorly if exposed to copper, formalin> If so, I assume this means the other fish are infected as well and I should treat everyone and leave the main tank fallow for a month or two? <Again, I don't read or see in your pix evidence of parasitic infestation> Or should I just treat the Saddleback and see how the others fair in the meantime? Or, maybe I should see how it plays out, which means I should concentrate on getting the Saddleback to eat? <If you can't return the B'fly, I'd try interesting it in other foods, soaked in a vitamin & HUFA prep. (liquid stimulant) like Selcon... Try adding some new/er live rock, try frozen/defrosted bloodworms, a small opened shellfish (from the human food store or Gamma brand), try even some live brine shrimp. This "upon the horse": ephippium (which for humans is a saddle) is likely just stressed from capture, handling, transport... starved from lack of nutrition through the process. In future, I would demand that such potential purchases be fed in my presence. Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/bffdsfdgfaqs.htm Bob Fenner> Thank you in advance, Jarred P.S. I apologize for my dirty tank - I haven't cleaned it since the arrival of the BFs as the Mag-float stresses them out and I am trying to avoid any unnecessary stress!

Auriga Scratching  9/27/07 Hello Bob & Co, I come to you guys more often than I take my kids to the doctor!! My Auriga which is the only fish in my 60gal/60lbs/skimmer/FBD tank is scratching a lot and shaking her face. She tries to scratch around the area behind her eyes. No sign of white spots and she eats very well. I have a cleaner shrimp in the tank as well. I have a 10 gal QT tank. What should I do? 1. Dip/Bath and then to QT? 2. Lower SG of QT and then let him sit there for a while? 3.Copper etc? 4. Other? As always, thank you for all your help. -Gans <4... just observe for now. Bob Fenner>
Re: Auriga Scratching  9/30/07 Hi Bob, He was still scratching as of yesterday. Today he is acting very lethargic. Just hanging out in one place or the other without swimming much. Not his usual self for sure. Still takes food and eats it all. No spots or anything else in the body that I can see. Should I still stay put and observe? Thanks! Ganz <Yes. RMF>
Re: Auriga Scratching 10/1/07 He didn't make it Bob! Found him dead this morning. I am 2 1/2 months into this hobby and am off to a rough start. Killed 2 Henis by having them in a 10 gal qt tank, now the Auriga . Pretty depressing! Not sure if I should continue. If I do, should I wait a month before I add anything to the tank? <A good idea, yes> I just have snails, crabs and a shrimp in there. Thanks for all your help! Cheers Gans <Convert, re-direct the energy, feeling into progressive activity... READ before buying... BobF>

Re: Lemon Butterfly only using one gill Can't find the exact answer to my question in the faq's, if that's what your trying to tell me  <Strange...I remember typing...Well here goes again.> Yes he's brand new and he's in a 20g QT tank with malachite green. <Ah, good!>  Should I do something else, or is this medicine good? <A good start and possibly all that you will need>  I should be concerned? <Safer than assuming all is well.>  Is this fatal? <Possibly. I don't mean to scare you here, but that is what the QT is for. Now you've noticed something worth monitoring. I would advise you to research all of the possibilities here as you will need a positive ID to know what you need to do. Without this you can mistreat/harm your fish through good intentions. Some things merely start in the gills, then get worse; others stay in the gills and cause suffocation. Check here and the links, http://www.wetwebmedia.com/parasiti.htm . Much to review but it should help.> Thanks again <Welcome and sorry for the blank response earlier. - Josh>  <<Editor's note: This does happen from time to time - if you receive a blank reply, do look in the next day's FAQs to see if it's been posted there.  This query and response was posted yesterday, click on the TBPFAQs page and you might find the original response there.  Marina>>
Re: Lemon Butterfly only using one gill Hey Josh no problem man, I appreciate your competence! <I hope I deserve the kind words, and thank you.>  I have formalin, malachite green, and Cupramine at home. Obviously, I don't have much time as I just read on the FAQ's. <Can't give up. Remember to keep a cool head and not get "too experimental".>  So, which medicine would be most beneficial and work the fastest in killing these parasites?  <I must confess here that I've been beyond lucky in this realm. Despite all of my ignorance starting out, I've never had one sick fish! Hence all I say here now is from my "studies". This is important to get right so I will ask Bob to confirm/correct this.>  Seems B/F's are more sensitive to these gill problems (flukes, parasites, one-gill movement, etc.). Any suggestions on trying new things, I don't want him to die.<People beat this all the time.> If you were me, what would YOU do in this situation? <Here goes... if this fish hasn't worsened then I would probably do a f/w dip/bath. Praziquantel @1ppm is the other popular choice I believe. After these I would just observe and hope that it was over before trying more. Sorry I don't have more hands on experience here but hopefully someone else will chime in.> Josh, thanks again, greatly appreciated!!! <Wish I could do more. - Josh> <Mmm, I encourage you both to peruse the Butterflyfish Disease FAQs... I do agree with Josh's input here. Bob Fenner>