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A question about cycling a brackish water
tank 07/07/08
HI, my name is Steven and I've been keeping fish for about 6 years now (I
have a 20 gallon freshwater tank that's fully cycled and has one 10" Pleco, a
female better, a Chinese hill stream loach, and a couple mollies I wish to get
rid of) and am currently setting up a 10 gallon brackish tank for a single
figure eight puffer.
<Plans for that Pleco? Definitely needs a larger home...>
I have the tank set up, have a filter for a 20 gallon tank set up with it, a
heater, an air pump to aerate the water, and the salt already added. I've had
the tank running for about 4 days now with no fish in it as I know the tank must
cycle before adding any fish to it (none the less a mess eater such as a
puffer). I've done a large amount of research regarding figure eights as to make
sure I can provide the best home possible for the little guy but I have one
question I can't seem to find the answer for, I was considering taking the bio
wheel from my fresh water tank (Marineland emperor power filter) and dipping it
into the brackish tank. I heard this would work to start the cycling process for
another freshwater tank but I can't seem to find anything about doing the same
for a brackish water tank. The SG in the brackish tank is low (I don't have a
hydrometer that will read low enough but it 1 table spoon per gallon) and I was
wondering if the bacteria from my fresh water tank will be able to take hold in
the brackish tank if I take the bio wheel and swirl it around the brackish tank
for a little while. Any help on finding the answer for this question will be
much appreciated. Even if the answer is no it'll help me greatly as to what to
do (I don't want to swirl the bio wheel in the brackish tank if the salt will
kill the bacteria and make me have to re cycle my freshwater tank as well).
Thank you for taking the time to look over my question.
<Steve, there are a couple options from the start; if you add bacteria to
freshwater and let it cycle, then very very slowly bring the salinity up over
the course of several weeks the bacteria will adapt. If you've already made the
tank brackish then you should just wait for bacteria from the air to colonize
the aquarium and cycle it. Since you don't have another brackish tank to seed
from, there really isn't a way to speed up the process- just follow basic
fishless cycling procedure and you should be fine- to clarify, I would not
expose your old filter to salted water, as this could damage your other
aquarium's established cycling.>
Steve
<Benjamin>
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Green Spotted Puffer Mom
Seeks Answers on Tank Size/Cycling 3/2/08
Hey guys, me again.
<Hey, Micah>
So, I'm utterly baffled. I was keeping my two juvenile (under 2") green spotted
puffers in a 10 gallon tank. I tried to instant-cycle the tank with Bio-Spira
but I think I messed it up by pouring it directly into the tank instead of into
the filter.
<If kept properly refrigerated from it’s manufacturing to your tank, either way
should work. The problem is, I’ve seen some shops keeping it out on their shelf
& even at some warehouses, leaving it out in cases for weeks, unrefrigerated.
Unfortunately, I am hearing of more & more cases of Bio-Spira not working & I
blame it on that.>
As such, the levels in the tank are higher than I'd like to be but I do daily
20% water changes to keep the levels down while I wait for the aquarium to
finish cycling.
<20% may not be enough in an overstocked/uncycled system. Please post exact,
most recent ammonia, nitrite, nitrate & pH, whenever posting a question about
this.>
While the tank is freshwater, I have 1/2 tsp of freshwater aquarium salt for
every gallon in there.
<I would not suggest adding any salt at all, until the tank is totally cycled &
parameters steady, for at least a week. Then you may use marine salt to raise
the specific gravity, no more than .002/week. Less is fine too. You need to
measure it with a hydrometer or refractometer.>
The puffers are the only ones in the tank obviously and I thought that one was
harassing the other (the slightly smaller one harassing the slightly larger
one).
<Very possible with puffers in too small a tank & not enough décor, blocking
their lines of sight.>
Nothing too intense but I did notice what looked like a
nip on the end of his tail. The two puffers were very different in color--one
the bright green with black spots and white belly that I see in all the online
pictures (though he does have the beginnings of
dark grey stress lines at the sides of his mouth) and the other so dark green
that he was almost brown, though his belly was still a nice white.
I thought maybe it was best to separate the two fish, so with my currently
limited budget, I bought a 10 gallon tank, put three gallons of water from his
old tank into the new one and treated the water new water, added salt and set it
up with a heater and power filter (hoping that it would provide enough
aeration).
<There is nothing you have added that will cycle that tank. Even using water
from a fully established tank has none of the beneficial bacteria needed to
cycle your tank. It lives on surfaces; like the substrate, filtration media,
plants, etc. Maybe a divider to keep the aggression down, until you can fishless
cycle a much larger tank for them?>
I scooped the darker-looking puffer out with a 3 cup measuring cup (never again
will I let anyone use a net around my puffers) and put him into the new tank.
<Great job, not using a net!>
I fed him a ghost shrimp but he didn't seem interested in the other ones after
he ate that one. I've noticed his appetite hasn't been very good lately, which
is particularly evident in comparison to his fat buddy. About 30 minutes later I
stopped by his tank and found him floating on the roots of an unanchored java
fern, looking so dark brown he barely had spots (but oddly, still with a white
belly). I
panicked and removed him back to his former cramped quarters, and he
perked up substantially, though he's still fairly listless and not
nearly as brightly colored as his friend.
<The fact that he perked up immediately after moving into another tank, is a
sign that there is something wrong with the water in his tank.>
I feed them a decently varied diet...cooked shrimp,
<Raw is much more nutritious.>
small pond snails, thawed blood worms and pellets (though only the brightly
colored one will actually eat the pellets...the listless dark one spits them out
and loses interest quickly) and I generally try not to feed them too much (never
more than once per day and I always take out whatever they haven't eaten that I
can find).
<Lots of other good suggestions for feeding here & an article on how to get a
picky puffer to eat:
http://www.thepufferforum.com/forum/library/category/feeding/ >
I don't know what's wrong with my puff...I know that he (okay, gender could be
either, but I think of it as a him) is stressed but I just don't know how to
unstress him. The other fish doesn't antagonize him extensively and he seems to
be happier around him than alone. Could he be constipated? I can't find anything
that seems like it would describe the problem...
<If he was constipated, he would be bloated & not pooping.>
Any ideas?
The best I can do is as I suggested before. These puffers need a minimum of a
30g cycled tank together, for now or try to find a place that can take one of
them but you’ll eventually need a 30g for one adult. You now have 2 uncycled
tanks & neither puffer will fare well in them together. ~PP>
Micah
Re: green spotted puffer mom seeks
answers... 3/2/08
Thanks Pufferpunk,
<I’m trying…>
In a last ditch attempt, last night I switched the filter cartridge from one of
my established tanks to the puffer tank in the hopes that a "seeded" cartridge
might make a bit of difference.
<It should help.>
This morning I tested the water again and using the API Freshwater test kit, my
results are as follows:
The pH reading is 7.4, Nitrite is 5.0 (good. lord.), Ammonia is .25 (not great
but better than it was) and Nitrate is 10 (below 20, at least...). Temperature
remains steady at 78 degrees Fahrenheit.
<Just not enough bacteria in that filter to support 2 messy puffers.>
What percentage water change would you suggest on a daily basis while the tank
finishes cycling?
<I recommend at least 80% at this point, using Prime as a dechlorinator.>
I'm deducing from the fact that the ammonia levels are dropping that one of the
two kinds (I get nitrosomer and Nitrobacter confused) of bacteria are beginning
to establish themselves but the second kind has yet to really make a dent.
I wish I had an available fully cycled tank to put them into but I fear
disastrous consequences of putting them in my molly/dwarf Gourami tank (20
gallons, with 3 balloon body mollies, 3 Danios, and 5 dwarf Gouramis) or my
guppy/Hatchetfish tank (10 gallons, 3 guppies, 2 Hatchetfish and 2 Otos)...
<Can you possibly rearrange the fish so the puffers can go into the 20g alone?>
The harassment does appear to have been all in my head and I think it's just the
water conditions that are troubling the one puffer.
<Possibly… ammonia/nitrite isn’t fun for a puffer to live in.>
They do have several broken lines of sight, with 2 decent sized hole-riddled
faux vases that I've seen them play in and around and a solid
amount of live plant cover (4 java ferns, some water sprite and some micro sword
grass--the first and last being plants that originate in brackish waters), so
right now I'm more focused on how to best fix my water problems.
Is the answer water changes, water changes and more water changes?
<LOL, have you seen my signature somewhere?>
I'm happy to do 90% water changes every day if you think it'll help...
<Do as much as you can possibly do (even 2x/day, if necessary), to keep the
ammonia & nitrite as close to 0 as possible at all times. Feed sparingly. ~PP>
-Micah
Re: Green Spotted
Puffer Mom Seeks Answers 3/5/08
Hey Pufferpunk...just an update.
<Micah>
With consistent water changes, I've gotten the ammonia to somewhere
between 0 and .25 (my color match doesn't distinguish any further) and
nitrite down to .50.
<That will do it!>
I'm not feeding them, though there are a couple of ghost shrimp
wandering around the tank in case they do decide to eat (they've been
there since Saturday).
<Unless the ghost shrimp have eaten (gut-loaded), they are basically not
nutritious--mostly water.>
In a few days (i.e. Wednesday) I'll be getting the larger tank. Should I
try to cycle it first or move the puffers into the new tank right away?
<I would move the puffers, substrate, decor & filtration over to the
larger tank, ASAP. How large?>
I'm trying, really. I'm sure my constant queries are tiring, but I do
appreciate all the help you've given.
<What gets tiring, are the countless letters after folks' puffers are
already dead. What is refreshing, is people that send letters of
research, before purchasing. Not actually a scolding to you, just
something good to do next time. ~PP>
-Micah
Green Spotted Puffer Mom
Learns, Finally. 3/6/08
Hey Pufferpunk!
<Micah>
Some good news and some sad news. I came home today with a 55 gallon tank
(complete with hood and fluorescent light), ready to move my guys into their new
home. Sadly, the puffer that hadn't been flourishing passed away between when I
left for school this morning and when I came home from my LFS.
<Awww... sorry for your loss. The single puffer will be thrilled with his nice
big home.>
On the up side, his compadre is still doing fairly well. I can tell by his
coloring that he's still a little stressed but he's swimming around and
exploring, as per usual. Nitrite and ammonia levels are down to .25 or less.
I'll be transferring him to his new home, along with the substrate, plants and
decor from his current tank, tonight. In addition, I'll be adding a large bag of
crushed coral to the substrate.
<Sounds good.>
The filter I have on his current tank is for 20 gallons or less, so I don't know
about transferring that to the larger tank (I bought a Penguin bio-wheel
designed for 55 gallon tanks)...would you recommend transferring the BioWheel
from his old tank to help with the bacteria development in the new one? It
appears that the bio-wheels are similarly sized...
<I'd hang both filters on the tank for at least a month. Puffers need a lot of
filtration anyway.>
Is there anything I'm missing that I should run out and get? I bought some
instant ocean and Prime (the former obviously being for once the bacteria
colonies get themselves established so that I can start killing them off and
increasing the salinity). I did pick up a hydrometer. And I heard that puffers
like playing in bubble walls, so
I picked up one of those, as well (attached to an air pump, obviously). You've
been so wonderful, coaching me through this. I can't thank you enough. In the
future, I'll limit species occupying my small tanks to guppies and other bitsy
fish.
<Good luck to you & I hope your puffer lives a happy, healthy, long life! ~PP>
Best, Micah
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Fishless Cycling 02/29/2008
Greetings -
<<Hello, Andrew this evening>>
I've been doing a ton of researching regarding "fishless" cycling. I wish to
set-up a brackish tank for a Green Spotted Puffer (I've done my fair share of
research for these guys, too!).
<<Sounds great>>
I've just a few questions to clear up my understanding of doing this right:
1 - In my readings, I understand what "cycling a tank" means (establishing
bacterial colonies that converts Ammonia to Nitrites to Nitrates). I do
understand at the very start of new tank Ammonia levels will skyrocket, then
suddenly plummet as the Nitrites take hold. Does that mean once the Ammonia and
Nitrite levels are at 0, and Nitrates are up, the cycle is complete?
<<Near enough yes. Once the ammonia and nitrite have gone back to zero, the
nitrates will drop to around about 10ppm. When it stays at this level, with
constant readings, then your cycle is complete>>
2 - I don't like the idea of using pure Ammonia, since I've read many things
going wrong with others' tanks due to overdoing the Ammonia, resulting in a
delay of the cycling process even further. However, I've read quite a few
articles regarding the "shrimp" method. Taking a piece of shrimp and tying it in
a pantyhose stocking, dropping it in the tank and letting it rot (as the source
of Ammonia). Does it seem valid to you? Or dropping a few flakes a day seem more
reasonable?
<<Yes, i always recommend this route to cycle an aquarium. Remove the carcass
when the ammonia reaches 4 - 5ppm >>
3 - Also, in terms of cycling a "brackish" tank - should I be adding the marine
salt at the very start, or when the cycle has completed? What are the pros and
cons of doing so?
<<Yes, you need to set the specific gravity right from the start>>
4 - Last, but not least. In regards to a cycle WITH fish, I understand the
importance of doing water changes to keep the Ammonia / Nitrite levels down as
to not harm the fish. However, in a cycle WITHOUT fish, should one just let the
bacteria colonize and NOT do water changes? Or should water changes be a routine
in cycling the tank?
<<When running a fishless cycle, there is no need to carry out a water change
until the cycle has completed. As i mentioned in point 1, above, when you
reading are at Ammonia, nitrate zero and nitrate about 10ppm and like this for a
week, cycle id complete, and now its time to carry out a good 50% water change
to replenish the tank. Then your all set to "slowly" start to stock the tank>>
I appreciate your time in reading / responding to my questions.
Happy fish keeping, Emily
<<Hope the above helps Emily, any more questions, just ask away. Thanks for the
questions. A Nixon>>
Cycling a brackish tank from scratch
7/5/07
Hi,
I currently have red cherry shrimp and am going to start breeding other shrimp
that the fry need to be raise in a separate brackish water tank to go thru it's
larva stages.
My questions start with can I take a fully cycled 10 gallon tank and convert it
to brackish and how?
Also once it's a fully cycled brackish tank do I need fish and or shrimp fry to
keep it cycling if so what small fish will do the trick, maybe a brackish water
shrimp ?
What SG should I keep the salt level at?
Any and all comments will be put go good use as I will print this out to keep
for future use so be as specific as possible.
Thanks,
Rick Sahrp
<Hello Rick. You can adapt filter media from an established freshwater aquarium
to SG 1.005 or less almost at once. Put the media in a bucket of freshwater, and
do some brackish water water changes over an hour or so just as you would
acclimate a new fish from freshwater to brackish water. The bacteria seem to
adapt well. Above SG 1.005 things get a bit more hazy. In theory, you can
gradually raise the SG in the aquarium at each water change and the filter
bacteria will change from freshwater to brackish water ones. In practise you
should GO SLOW and test for ammonia/nitrite after each water change in salinity
just to make sure everything is fine. You can keep a tank cycled without fish or
invertebrates. Adding a bit of seafood or a few pinches of flake food will do
the trick. As these rot, they will produce the ammonia the bacteria need. Don't
go bananas, but you are wanting to mimic about the same level of food every day
or two as you would add if there were real fish in there. The bacteria don't
"know" where the ammonia comes from, and couldn't care less if it came from a
pinch of flake or a black molly! Now, one thing I'm confused about is why you
need brackish water for Red Cherry Shrimp (Neocaridina denticulata sinensis).
These are freshwater shrimp with no larval stage. They breed very readily in
freshwater, and brackish water is *not* required to rear the baby shrimp. The
baby shrimp are very robust and easy to rear. A local tropical fish shop has
baby shrimps all over the tank the adults are kept in! The only thing that
matters is the water is fairly hard and alkaline. Beyond that, they aren't
fussy. Amano shrimps (Caridina multidentata = C. japonica) do need brackish or
marine water to complete their life cycle, as do some other freshwater aquarium
shrimps, like the Red Nose Shrimp (Caridina gracilirostris) but certainly not
all of them. Hope this helps, Neale>
Cycling a Brackish Aquarium 7/7/06
Thanks for the quick reply.
<Hi Melissa, you've got Pufferpunk here this time.>
I did use something called Cycle when I set up the tank to get the bacteria
going.
<Cycle is total bunk & a waste of $$$. The only product that will "instant
cycle" your tank is Bio-Spira.>
The guy at the pet store told me if I used that, then it would be ok to get
that many fish. I guess he had no idea what he was talking about.
<Sure didn't! Don't always depend on the folks working at aquarium
stores. You must do your own research on these things too.>
So, is the aquarium salt ok to use for these fish? I never got an answer on
that.
<Brackish water is made with marine salt, measured with a hydrometer or
refractometer. Of the fish you have listed, only the mono & glassfish were
brackish. The mono is a schooling species that get about a foot long. You
cannot keep brackish fish & freshwater fish in the same aquarium. Please do
much more research on each fish species & their care before buying any more
fish. ~PP>
Going From Brackish To Freshwater 12/10/05
WWM crew, I have a brackish tank which my fish recently died and I want to
turn it into a freshwater tank. I was just wondering if I could skip recycling
the tank by simply emptying the brackish water and replacing it with freshwater.
Hope this question isn't too stupid... thanks.
< Brackish is a very loose term that means it is between pure freshwater and
pure saltwater. Depending on the exact salinity you were keeping your fish at,
after replacing the water, I would still add Bio-Spira from Marineland to cover
all the bases.-Chuck>
Set Up and Stocking in One Day - 12/07/2005
I set up a brackish water tank and all day the tank was clear the fish were
active and eating, nothing unusual. I had 2 Green Scats and a Green Puffer. When
I went to feed them this morning the water was extremely cloudy and the fish
were dead.
<Surprise, surprise.>
Could this have been a filter problem.
<Well yes in a manner of speaking. Not physical however, but biological. This is
what happens when fish are thrown into an uncycled tank.>
I had them on a Whisper filter overnight and was going to get a biowheel but I
didn't get a chance to. Any ideas?
<Study. - Josh>
Making BW for a F8 Puffer, Cycle is Bunk - 10/24/05
Thanks, wow I had no idea about the brackish water thing. With the set-up I
have now can I make a brackish tank? I know I'll need marine salt and a
hydrometer or whatever measures specific gravity of the water. Right now I can't
move the loaches out of the tank. I am moving the goldfish out tomorrow
hopefully. I thought you needed some crazy equipment to handle a brackish tank.
I have not researched it so if you could let me know what I would need to do I
would be glad to do it. Cycle, as I read, had dormant bacteria that come alive
when the conditions are right, is this wrong? Water quality seems good, although
things that are not visible could be deadly I know. Well thanks again for
helping!
<Your loaches will not appreciate the salt. Can you find somewhere to re-house
them? Maybe your LFS will take them or you know someone that has a much bigger
tank? Cycle is total bunk. Bacteria does not come alive. The ONLY product that
contains live bacteria is
Bio-Spira & it needs to be kept refrigerated, so the bacteria doesn't
die. Check out
www.thepufferforum.org, for more
puffer info & lots of great articles in the Library! ~PP>
FW water quality, puffer 8/9/05
Bob,
<Erik>
Update and 2 quick questions for you... My tank appears to be cycled. Ammonia
and nitrites are zero. Nitrates are between 20 and 40 PPM. I did
a 50% water change yesterday to bring these down a bit. My tap water is not as
loaded with Nitrates as I'd originally thought. Your comment made
me rethink my original tests so I did a control and tested straight tap water,
only 5 PPM nitrates.
<Ahh>
But I did notice one strange anomaly, and I double checked it several times to
be sure, my tap water does appear to
have ammonia in it! I did a control with distilled water, and of course it
registered zero, the tank is registering just above zero, but less
than .25 PPM, way less. The test tube appears pure yellow until I put a control
of distilled water next to it. You can then tell it has a very
slight green tint to it which indicates some level of ammonia. Am I correct in
assuming that a control test of distilled water will always look a little purer
than tank water?
<Generally>
There will always be trace amounts of ammonia in the tank because of waste that
hasn't been converted by the bacteria yet correct?
<Umm, no... not detectable amounts in a completely cycled system>
Any way, I retested twice and yes, my tap water appears to contain between 1 and
2 PPM of ammonia!
<Trouble>
I'm going to try a different test kit, I find it hard to believe that the city
would allow
such high levels. I don't drink tap water anyway but I worry about the fish and
my cat. He'll get bottled water until I find out what's going on.
<A good idea>
Anyway, my important question is this... Is it normal for a Cholonodon patoca
(Milk Spotted Puffer)
<Mis-spelled... Chelonodon:
http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/speciesSummary.php?ID=6610&genusname=Chelonodon&speciesname=patoca>
to spend quite a bit of time resting on the bottom?
<Yes>
When he moves, he's moving and healthy looking, but he rests quite a bit. I've
seen you tell other puffer owners that they do this,
but there is very little info out there about my little guy. As passive as he
is, I'd expect the Milk Spotted Puffers to be more popular.
Haven't seen him even threaten to fin nip his tank mates to date. I know this
will change with age but he's pretty friendly right now, even
shares his food with the sharks! Salinity is about 1.008 and I am gradually
bringing that up so as not to
hurt the other fish. Water temp is about 80 degrees F and the pH is about
7.6-7.8.
Thanks Again,
Erik
<Keep studying... prevention... Bob Fenner>
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