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Confused about UGF statement from crew 4/27/07
Thanks WWM crew for all you do for passing the knowledge forward. I recently (1
year ago) returned to the salt water portion of the hobby after being out of it
for 20 years and have learned and re-learned many things and what a change from
the late seventies early eighties. I have had freshwater tanks since the late
sixties and was a little confused by a reply to a question asked by someone as I
was reading over the FAQ's tonight regarding under gravel filters for FW
tanks.............
UGF and Power Heads, FW - 04/25/07
To whom it may concern:
Hello,
<<Hello. Tom here.>>
I have a 10 gallon tank with 2 separate filters and 3 goldfishes. I get a little
frustrated with changing the filters every 2-3 weeks, so I purchased a UGF and a
power head from aqua-tech. Did I made a good decision? I would really appreciate
a straight answer.
<<Straight answer? No, you didn’t make the best of decisions here. First, I
would rather have seen you place the money you spent toward a much larger
aquarium. You’re way overloaded where stocking is concerned. (Goldfish need far
larger quarters to live in than most people believe or understand.) Specific to
your question, though, a UGF requires a higher, not lower, level of maintenance
than hang-on or submersible filters. If you’re frustrated with cleaning your
present filters every two to three weeks, you’re not going to be happy pulling
your UGF plates just as often to make sure they’re clean and performing
properly. It’s because other styles of filters were designed to be more easily
maintained that UGF’s lost their popularity. They used to be the “only game in
town” in the past. Now, by most standards, they’re simply not worth the effort.
(For just a little “sugar coating”, UGF’s work very well. Many hobbyists just
didn’t want to take the time to maintain them properly and this caused problems
up to, and including, the deaths of their livestock.)>>
thank you
<<You’re welcome. Tom>>
Maybe I have been doing things wrong for 20+ years but when I look under my
plates from the bottom of the tank (one with power heads running) I do see a
small amount of build up but nothing to stress me or the fish about.
<Mmm, well... circumstances result in highly variable experience here... but if
one uses "almost entirely nutritious" foods (so that there is not much "left
over" (think of spacemen/women in their space suits here...) AND there is no
shortage of alkaline reserve (the mechanisms of decomposition here result in
lowered pH, dissolved oxygen...) and a few other factors, then UG filters can be
quite maintenance free... In actual practice though, more gravel vacuuming is
required... along with disruption of the livestock, system... with UG use (Am
still a fan myself)>
I have never had to "pull my UGF plates up every 2-3 weeks" to clean them. The
only time I have done this was when either moving a tank or breaking one down. I
do not want to wreak havoc on my cycle.
<Agreed>
I run power heads in the lift tubes (smaller tanks have air pumps and stones)
and when I do need to clean the build up under the plates I do not remove them
but either run a hose down the lift tube to siphon or attach tube to the power
head to suck out or by simple lifting up and down slightly where the tube meets
the plate with power head running (if worried about clouding the water you could
do it while changing water with hose attached to exit of power head to keep silt
from entering tank water) to loosen and clean out the deposits under the UGF.
Of course I vacuum (alternating half one water change then the other the next
time) the gravel to remove the mulm built up in it but never have I removed the
plates just to clean.
<Well-stated and a good practice>
However the hang on filter does require more regular maintenance in my opinion
for changing out the medium used there as the waste build up increases the
nitrate and reduces water flow through the filter.
Thank you,
John Maggio
<Thank you for sharing, sending along this well-written counter-point. Bob
Fenner>
Re: UGs 4/27/07
Hello Tom, Bob,
<Neale, Tom>
I came across this message in the Inbox and wasn't sure how to respond to it, so am open to advice.
<Good attitude>
On the one hand, I have never found undergravel filters to be difficult to maintain. Yes, they need cleaning once a year and a good rake through once a month, but that's about it. They have numerous drawbacks I grant, but maintenance isn't really one of them. For their cost, undergravels can provide very good water quality. On the other hand, I wouldn't like to
criticize the advice offered by another contributor. I also think Tom's basic comment that the tank is too small and an undergravel too pokey for goldfish is correct. I
personally don't consider goldfish suitable for anything other than very large aquaria, but that's just me.
<We are in agreement here... I have posted a couple of articles I'd penned on
these venerable filters... Do have some place still... but not with goldfish
systems, other arenas where sped up reduction can be problematical>
The message is in my mailbox folder if anyone wants to have a pass at it.
<I'll have a go... and send all to Tom's in-folder as well. Cheers, BobF>
Cheers, Neale
> Thanks WWM crew for all you do for passing the knowledge forward. I recently (1 year ago) returned to the salt water portion of the hobby after being out of it for 20 years and have learned and re-
learned many things and what a change from the late seventies early
eighties. I have had freshwater tanks since the late sixties and was a
little confused by a reply to a question asked by someone as I was reading over the FAQ's tonight regarding under gravel filters for FW tanks.............
>> UGF and Power Heads, FW - 04/25/07
>> To whom it may concern:
>> Hello,
>> <<Hello. Tom here.>>
>> I have a 10 gallon tank with 2 separate filters and 3 goldfishes.
>> I get a little frustrated with changing the filters every 2-3 weeks, so I purchased a UGF and a power head from aqua-tech. Did I made a good decision? I would really appreciate a straight answer.
>> <<Straight answer? No, you didn’t make the best of decisions here.
>> First, I would rather have seen you place the money you spent toward
a much larger aquarium. You’re way overloaded where stocking is
concerned. (Goldfish need far larger quarters to live in than most
people believe or understand.) Specific to your question, though, a UGF
requires a higher, not lower, level of maintenance than hang-on or
submersible filters. If you’re frustrated with cleaning your present
filters every two to three weeks, you’re not going to be happy pulling
your UGF plates just as often to make sure they’re clean and performing
properly. It’s because other styles of filters were designed to be more
easily maintained that UGF’s lost their popularity. They used to be the
“only game in town” in the past. Now, by most standards, they’re simply
not worth the effort. (For just a little “sugar coating”, UGF’s work
very well. Many hobbyists just didn’t want to take the time to maintain
them properly and this caused problems up to, and including, the deaths of their livestock.)>>
>> thank you
>> <<You’re welcome. Tom>>
> Maybe I have been doing things wrong for 20+ years but when I look under my plates from the bottom of the tank (one with power heads running) I do see a small amount of build up but nothing to stress me or the fish about.
> I have never had to "pull my UGF plates up every 2-3 weeks" to clean them. The only time I have done this was when either moving a tank or breaking one down. I do not want to wreak havoc on my cycle.
> I run power heads in the lift tubes (smaller tanks have air pumps and stones) and when I do need to clean the build up under the plates I do not remove them but either run a hose down the lift tube to siphon or attach tube to the power head to suck out or by simple lifting up and down slightly where the tube meets the plate with power head running (if worried about clouding the water you could do it while changing water with hose attached to exit of power head to keep silt from entering tank water) to loosen and clean out the deposits under the UGF.
> Of course I vacuum (alternating half one water change then the other the next time) the gravel to remove the mulm built up in it but never have I removed the plates just to clean.
> However the hang on filter does require more regular maintenance in my opinion for changing out the medium used there as the waste build up increases the nitrate and reduces water flow through the filter.
> Thank you,
> John Maggio
UGF and Power Heads, FW - 04/25/07
To whom it may concern:
Hello,
<<Hello. Tom here.>>
I have a 10 gallon tank with 2 separate filters and 3 goldfishes. I get a little
frustrated with changing the filters every 2-3 weeks, so I purchased a UGF and a
power head from aqua-tech. Did I made a good decision? I would really appreciate
a straight answer.
<<Straight answer? No, you didn’t make the best of decisions here. First, I
would rather have seen you place the money you spent toward a much larger
aquarium. You’re way overloaded where stocking is concerned. (Goldfish need far
larger quarters to live in than most people believe or understand.) Specific to
your question, though, a UGF requires a higher, not lower, level of maintenance
than hang-on or submersible filters. If you’re frustrated with cleaning your
present filters every two to three weeks, you’re not going to be happy pulling
your UGF plates just as often to make sure they’re clean and performing
properly. It’s because other styles of filters were designed to be more easily
maintained that UGF’s lost their popularity. They used to be the “only game in
town” in the past. Now, by most standards, they’re simply not worth the effort.
(For just a little “sugar coating”, UGF’s work very well. Many hobbyists just
didn’t want to take the time to maintain them properly and this caused problems
up to, and including, the deaths of their livestock.)>>
thank you
<<You’re welcome. Tom>>
Aquatic Edge undergravel filters 3/7/07
I was just recently given a fish tank. Well as with anything, it needed to be
assembled. I would like to know if there are any diagrams that show how to
assemble the water filter, pump, and aquatic edge undergravel filters.
<I am not familiar with this product, but I was able to find a picture of what
it should look like when assembled here,
http://www.fish.com/itemdy00.asp?T1=701012+005. Hope this is of help to
you, Brandon.>
Thanks
Switching from Under Gravel Filters To Other Filtration Methods -
02/11/2007
Hi WWM Crew,
<<Hello, Glenn. Tom here.>>
I hope you all are doing well today.
<<And you as well.>>
A few years back y'all helped me plan for changing my saltwater tank from UGF
filtration to LR/DSB and sump/refugium. I made the change in 2004 and Nitrates
have been undetectable since then.
<<Can’t argue with success, Glenn. Good job.>>
I have a small 30L Malawi Cichlid tank that has been running for 7 years. I've
always used UGF and the same gravel. After reading about some of the problems
that a poorly maintained ( i.e. lack of regular water changes and substrate
vacuuming) UGF system may develop, I've decided to switch to a power filter.
<<Nothing wrong with making the switch, Glenn. I’d say that a tank running a UGF
filter for seven years isn’t at all bad but, I wouldn’t disagree with the
decision you’ve made.>>
My plan is to run the UGF and new Power filter together for a period of time,
then remove the gravel, UGF plates and vacuum out the bottom of the tank.
Rinse the grave in tank water and add several inches back into the tank.
Of course the fish will be moved to a 30G Rubbermaid tub while I remove the
filter.
<<A suggestion? If possible, pull the plates without pulling out the gravel.
Easier said than done, I know. Will very likely stir up a lot of gunk from the
bottom but I’d rather not see so much of the beneficial bacteria potentially
compromised. When all has settled out, a few “deep” (all the way to the bottom)
gravel cleanings will put your substrate back in good order. This will become
the order of the day, anyhow. As I say, just a suggestion.>>
My first question is how long should I run the Power and UGF filter together
before removing the UGF?
<<This one somewhat goes back to my last point. A couple of weeks should be more
than sufficient provided the whole bacterial “farm” hasn’t been badly disrupted
or disturbed. The media will seed with beneficial bacteria quickly in a cycled
tank such as yours so I see no reason to run both together longer than this.>>
The second is, how deep can I make the substrate? I know in marine systems, a
SSB should be <= 1". Does this apply to fresh water as well?
<<This one depends on the type/size of the substrate being used, Glenn. The
finer the substrate, the shallower the depth should be. I’m running about 1” of
fine, natural gravel in one of my tanks and about 2.5”-3” of coarser gravel in
another. The key is to prevent pockets of build-up from forming away from the
oxygenated region of the tank. No hard and fast rules here other than good
common sense, really.>>
Thanks,
Glenn
<<No problem at all, Glenn. Good luck with the change-over. Tom>>
Deep Sand Bed for Fresh water aquarium. 11/8/06
Hi Guys,
<Oooh, what about the XXs?>
I am new to this site but I used to keep marines - then I got married, had
kids, got a proper job - pretty much in that order...
<Let's see... in the not so wild west, "First comes... then comes
familiarity...>
Now I return, but have decided to keep Malawi Cichlids (Haps and
Peacocks).
<I keep these... and Mbuna in another system>
I am still researching the species and bringing myself up to
date with latest filtration techniques etc. I am space limited and so I
know that the size of the tank is fixed at around 90G. I am interested in
using a sump - for various reasons, but it has a lot to do with requiring
a low maintenance, stable system because I am away from home 4 days a
week. (That's what a proper job does to you). I am interested in
incorporating a NNR refugium type compartment in the sump, and have read
around the subject a little. However, I have a couple of really basic
questions that I can't find answers for. This is why I write.
My first question is how do they work?
<Mmm, NNRs? Basically they harbour, foster anaerobic microbe populations... mild
circulation delivers system water to the hypoxic bed, and chemical substrate
(e.g. Nitrates) that are reduced (as in Reduction/Oxidation) to component
molecules>
Ha! Don't get upset. 6 inches of
sand directly on the bottom of the tank with no forced water flow through
it leaves me confused. How is the water that had nitrates removed
replaced? How does water exchange work in the filter bed?
<Is the same water... recirculated with/through the system en toto... and the
water exchange is purposely very slow, gradual to keep oxygen tension low>
My second question is this. If I set it up with a plenum, an uplift tube
and a very low flow rate (say a few gallon per hour) will the efficiency
of the sand bed be increased or destroyed?
<This depends on still other factors/circumstances of how much substrate, its
"grade", chemical/physical make-up... slow as you go is the route to go here...
no uplift tubes, the "holes" for these plugged... No aided circulation through
the bed other than simple diffusion, Brownian motion>
(This is of course just a UGF
with a low flow rate). When I was keeping marines the accepted wisdom at
the time was that aerobic processes occurred in only the top inch and a
half of substrate. Therefore it seems to me that with a deep sand filter
some forced water movement could be acceptable without dragging oxygen too
far into the bed.
<Ah, yes... I remember those days/years>
In any case it could be possible to increase the depth
of the sand to compensate.
<Yes, to some/an extent>
I should add that the reason I am tempted to do this is again due to lack
of space. The entire sump needs to be 80LX40WX40Dcm max.
Any help you can offer would be very welcome.
Thanks,
Tony Baxter
<The same rationale, design, operation... of such filtration, filters as per
marine... Please use the search tool and/or indices on WWM to read about
Plenums, DSBs for marine/SW set-ups...
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/deepsandbeds.htm
http://wetwebmedia.com/Plenums.htm
and the linked files above...
and apply this to your application. Bob Fenner>
Undergravel Fish? 11/7/06
Hello,
<Hi Mark, Pufferpunk here>
I have this problem with my Flowerhorn fry. They seem to always try to get
under the gravel. A lot of them are not getting back out. I want to try to
vacuum the gravel but afraid that I might crush the fry while doing it. So, is
this a big problem or the fry should be able to get themselves out? Please, need
help fast--don't know if they can survive that long under the gravel.
<Are you speaking of below the undergravel filter plate? I can't imagine
anything else you might be referring to, unless your gravel size is huge & they
are being caught between the pieces. If you are referring to the undergravel
filter plate, the same thing happened to my Cory catfish fry. I took the down
tube out & lifted the plate by the hole slowly, letting the gravel drop to the
side. All the fry were fine after that. Please correct me if my assumption is
wrong & describe the problem better. Also, it would be good for the fry to have
some fine-leaved plants (live or fake) to hide out in. ~PP>
Thank you very much, Mark
Removing an UGF 8/24/06
Good morning!
<Hi Nicole, Pufferpunk here>
I have a 29 gallon community tank filtered by a Penguin 150. I had a
powerhead connected to an UGF. I decided to try making use of an extra powerhead
by connecting it to a Quick Filter (Hagen). I had it running since Thursday and
at first was very excited as it polished the water until it was sparkling! The
trouble started when I removed the other powerhead off of its lift tube for
cleaning....suddenly I heard a pop and I realized I had removed the
whole lift tube right off of the filter plate! I considered for a moment what to
do, and ended up just throwing away the lift tube and covering up the exposed
bit of plate with gravel. Can I safely do this? Just abandon the undergravel
filter and leave it as a large plate sitting uselessly under the gravel? Or do I
have to remove the UGF completely?
<I really don't like UGFs in general. It seems like "sweeping dirt under the
rug". Unless used as reverse flow. Here is an article that will tell you
everything you need to know:
http://www.thepufferforum.com/articles/water/ugfilters.html >
I changed one of the two carbon filters (I change them alternately to reduce
bio-filtration stress) and removed the power sponge filter, which had become
darkly discolored - probably because of stirring up the muck beneath the filter
plate. The package says you can leave it in for up to two weeks without changing
the filter, I went ahead and changed it. From now on I am going to only run it
on weekends, since it seems better for spot cleaning than continuous use.
<I have completely removed UGF plates (my Corys had spawned & all the babies
were underneath!). It was quite simple. I just grabbed onto the hole & pulled
slowly up to one side. The gravel just slid off. I did a good stir & an 80%
water change.>
The water doesn't look cloudy per se but it does have lots of small suspended
particles in it, which haven't cleared up since the "incident" with the lift
tube. I am writing because I fear discontinuing the UGF suddenly and removing
the extra powerhead might have been a major mistake/disaster and I don't even
know it! Although the fish seem to be acting normally in every way.. I will do
whatever is necessary.
<I prefer a good HOB filter like the Aquaclear for a tank like that (sorry, I'm
not familiar with Penguins). Using one & removing the UGF, shouldn't change
your biological filtration much, as your tank seems well established. I like to
put 1" filter floss between the sponge & BioMax that comes with the AC filters
(carbon is pretty much useless on a freshwater tank), to "polish" my water
crystal clear. ~PP>
Thank you very much for your help!
Nicole
Goldfish shut off the undergravel filter? Eats shoots and leaves...
7/14/06
Hello,
<<Hi. Tom with you.>>
I read on your web site that undergravel filters are not recommended for
goldfish.
<<Goldfish in particular because of their "messiness" but the recommendation
holds for other species as well. I, and others, have addressed this one before
but it may bear repeating. We don't recommend against this style of filter
because it doesn't work. They can/do work quite well, in fact. The two primary
causes for concern, however, is that these MUST cover the entire bottom of the
tank and they MUST be maintained properly. When the first admonition is ignored
or misapplied, pockets of detritus/mulm can build up in the "unfiltered" areas
leading to potentially toxic levels of nitrates in the tank. Also, when not
properly maintained, the same situation may arise should the filter plate(s)
become clogged and left untended. This one may sound like a case of "pilot
error" rather than the fault of the filter and, while we wouldn't argue that
point, there are just too many good alternatives available to aquarists to
justify the use of a style of filter that has led to a great many problems
including otherwise "mysterious" deaths of livestock.>>
I have a 46 gallon tank with 2 medium Orandas and 1 Ryukin. Currently I have an
undergravel filter and a TetraTec PF500 power filter. I am considering shutting
the undergravel filter off. I have a hot magnum filter that I could use to clean
the gravel with prior to shut down and then reload with carbon to assist
filtration during the transition. Do you have any advice or feedback?
<<Your plan sounds fine and will eliminate potential problems down the road. Why
run the risk?>>
Thanks!
<<Any time. Tom>>
Bowfronts and filtration 5/18/06
Dear crew:
<<Hi, Jasen. Tom here.>>
I have a bowfront aquarium and a problem.
<<One of mine is a "bowfront", too, so let's see if we can solve the problem.>>
I was told that since the tank isn't rectangular I can't use an undergravel
filter with it.
<<In a nutshell, UGF's are problematic because the can create problems with
trapped particulate matter leading to high toxin levels. The general rule,
nowadays, is to avoid them.>>
Is this true?
<<Yes. The trouble here is that a UGF should filter the "entire" bottom surface
of the tank to eliminate "pockets" of collected detritus/mulm. With a bowfront
tank, this isn't possible with a straight-line UGF. A matter of "geometry". The
"bow" in the front of your tank will leave a rather large area for unfortunate
build-up. Not a good situation at all.>>
From,
a fish lover
<<From a fish lover, as well. Tom>>
Question...UG Filters-Hydrogen Sulphide Factories - 5/18/2006
I have a 46 gallon aquarium with a bow-front. Is it possible to use an
undergravel filter with this aquarium, since it is not rectangular?
<Fred, is there any particular reason you want to use a UG filter?
These guys are maintenance headaches. You would be much better off with a
bio-wheel type filter if expense is the concern.
Do read here and then decide. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/ug5proscons.htm
James (Salty Dog)>
Fred Stoeker
UG's....not my choice - 05/17/2006
Dear Crew,
<Hello.>
Can I use an undergravel filter in a 46 gallon bowfront aquarium,
<...You can, I wouldn't...not a fan of UG's myself.>
even though it is not perfectly rectangular because of the bowed out front?
<UG's in my opinion are obsolete, if this is freshwater aquaria look into a
nice canister filter like an Eheim.>
Fred Stoeker
<Adam J.>
Mainly FW plant selection, growing with UG filtration 3/21/06
Dear Bob / Sabrina
I have been keeping tropical fishes for the last couple of years. I have 5
Angels, 3 Clown Loaches & some tetras in my aquarium.
During this period I tried so many times to keep real / live plants in my 5 feet
long tank which is based on under gravel filters but I never got success :-(
again I had to decorate my aquarium along with Plastic Plants.
This time again I am trying to keep the real plants. I need some information
from you
1. Can I keep them in Under Gravel filters based tank. ( Here in Pakistan I have
seen many aquariums which are full of live plants and are running on Under
Gravel filtration )
<Not all species... or not w/o "blind-potting" many of the rooted varieties (in
their own substrate, containers, or with a solid barrier placed on top of the UG
plate between the gravel...>
2. What species of plants should I keep ? I mean what types of plants ? I intend
to keep Hygrophila, Cabomba, Vallisneria, Java Fern & Cryptocoryne, are these
plants suitable for keeping with each other.
<Posted:
http://wetwebmedia.com/PlantedTksSubWebIndex/AquariumGardenSubWebIndex.html>
3. If the above mentioned plants are o.k. then what are the lighting
requirements for these plants and what types of fishes I can keep along with
these plants
<Also posted...>
4. Here in Pakistan a local plants dealer told me that Java Fern do not grow
well if it is potted in a gravel. Placing it on a Bog Wood will do better. Is he
right ?
<Yes... posted>
I am a regular visitor of your website and I think it is very informative.
Wish you good luck in your future endeavors
Very Best Regards
Shany
Karachi, Pakistan.
<Thanks much. Bob Fenner>
Looking For Undergravel Filters 9/19/05
Hello! I am currently searching for an underground filter system for a
46G freshwater aquarium. The dimensions are 36.5" X 16.5" X 21". Can
you please recommend the correct size for this 46G bow-front? Also, is
there a company that makes "custom-fitted" underground filter
systems? Thanks for your time. Regards, Shelly Hentges
< Go to DrsFosterSmith.com. They have an undergravel filter by Perfecto
that is 34.5" x16.25" (#MA-128358) for a 50 or 65 gallon tank. Pretty
darn close. Nobody makes custom undergravel filters that I know of, but
the one mentioned above will work just fine if you really want an
undergravel filter.-Chuck>
Cleaning Undergravel Filters - 08/25/2005
I have two underground filters connected to power-head filters, and I was
wondering, how you can clean underneath them?
<Very, very difficult - and a great question, besides. The best idea I have
been offered is to run an airline hose down the lift tubes and start a
siphon.... if you have an open-top-type stand, you can get underneath and see
where the problem areas are to get 'em cleared out. This is not a great
solution, but it's better than doing nothing! Another option would be to do a
reverse-flow UGF (powerheads would drive water IN the lift tubes, and out
through the substrate, rather than the opposite). You'd want it cleaned out
prior to making this change, though, or all the gunk underneath will get stirred
up. My preference is just to not use UGFs when avoidable.>
Thanks for your help!
<You bet!>
Christine
<Wishing you well, -Sabrina>
Reverse-flow or normal flow?
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005
Hi,
<Bonjour!>
To put you in the situation, I have a 75 gallons with 19 adults herbivore Mbunas, 1
AquaClear 500, 1 canister Fluval 304 with sponges, Rena BioStar and crush corals inside. Also UGF powered with 379 gph powerhead on normal
flow in a corner. At the opposite corner, an air inlet pull water in normal flow too. The gavel thickness is about 2-4 in. depending where. The food I
use sink very quickly and it goes in the gavel following the water flow.
<I see>
The thing is that I have a certain numbers of dead spot due to rock caves and hiding places for
Mbunas. I thought it will be better to push the water
under the gravel because at weekly water change I don't want to move all rocks away. If you think the idea of switching flow is great, I will put two
more powerhead and remove air from the UGF.
<This is what I would do, oui>
Thanks a lot, Philippe. My English is not very good so it could be difficult to read....
<No problem. You are making yourself understood. Merci, Bob Fenner>
UGF etc, filters, cycling, FW
I have several questions.
<Hope we have as many answers>
I am going to put a UGF in a 50 gallon tank. Am I correct that you need a 2 inch
gravel bed? Now do you layer this gravel evenly over the plates or is it better
to have it sloped higher from back to front?
<Mmm, about right... depends on the grade, make-up of the actual gravel... and
flatter is better, more functional>
Also do you recommend power heads over air pumps and if so how do you know the
flow rate?
<Actually, airlift works quite well... powerheads are fine though... a rule of
thumb... no more than two gallons per minute of actual flow per square foot of
plate/bottom>
For instance a 50 gallon
UGF plate comes in two separate pieces so a 48 x 13 is really 2 24 x 13 plates
so is the flow rate for a powerhead determined by total tank volume or by gravel
bed size?
<Ahh! Both... and finer gravel can "take" higher flow rates...>
The reason ask this question is because I also have a 72 gal bow front that
would take the same filter plates but has 22 gal more water.
Is it possible to have too much aeration under the UGF plates?
<Yes>
Next I understand the cycle process and the need for water changes during this
time but how much water and do you vacuum the gravel during this cycle time?
<As little as possible... disrupts the establishment... I would only change the
water (not disturb the gravel) and ONLY if ammonia or nitrite exceed 1.0 ppm>
Also I have some established biological gravel how much do you add to the new
tank
<A few pounds... even "dirty water" vacuumed from it would do>
also I am going to put an Xp1 canister on the 50 gal and I already have a cycled
XP2 with 20 BioStars how many can I take from that I will put new ones in place
of what I take out) without creating problems?
<About half>
Thank You for your help
Heidi
<Thank you for your thoughtful questions. Bob Fenner>
Re: UGF etc
Thanks for the help! I have searched and don't seem to find definitive
answers. So here comes more questions. So if powerheads are used the 50
gallon UGF would use the same rated powerheads as the 72 gallon bow front
UGF because the gravel beds are the same dimensions?
<Yes... FOR the purpose of the filters themselves... think about this.>
Or since the 72 gal is
4 inches deeper do you need more power to drive the UGF?
<No my friend... the pushing/pulling through the filter plates, gravel
will/would be the same irregardless of the depth of the system>
If so how do you know how much more power is needed? So if using an air pump to
drive UGF do
you recommend airstones?
<In general, yes... Good flow rate, easy to check on... adds aeration, breaks up
surface film... Please read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwugfiltr.htm
and the linked files at top>
In the instance of the UGF for the 50 g being 2 separate plates, how many lift
tubes per plate would be used and how would
you be able to tell if the flow rate is where it needs to be and not too
much or too little?
<I'd only use one lift tube per plate>
Is there an acceptable way to calculate and regulate the flow when using air
pumps?
<Not generally necessary... can be estimated, even physically measured if you'd
like to discuss this>
Does having the elbow on the lift tubes totally
submerged or partially submerged change the flow rate?
<Yes, decreases somewhat... worth the trade off in circulation>
I understand how to calculate flow rate per min with powerheads but not with air
pumps.
In the instance that powerheads are used would just 1 powerhead be used
per plate and does it matter which lift tube is used?
<The ones in the corners, better>
There is so much
that I still don't know. Hope I am not driving you nuts with these questions.
Thanks so much!
Heidi
<Too late... already there. Bob Fenner>
Removing a UGF
Hi Don, Dayna here again, thanks for the fast response!
Could you give me a few pointers on how I would go about taking the UGF out?
Thanks again.
Dayna
<First I would add another power filter and let it run a good month to become
established. Then get out as much gravel as possible and give it a good rinse.
Lower the water level to about half. Have replacement water ready. Lift the
plate slowly at one side and with a siphon draw out as much of the junk as
possible before it floats away into the water. A lot still will, but it will
either settle or be filtered out. Replace the gravel and water. Give it an hour
or two then replace the filter pads. Leave the bio wheels alone. In a day or two
use the gravel vac to get any junk that settled. Test for ammonia and nitrite
spikes and do water changes to correct any spikes until things settle
down>
UGF and Catfish Questions
I hate to inundate you with questions, but I can't seem to find the answers
to this anywhere else, and you guys always seem to have the right solutions. <No
problem, Don here>
I have been running an undergravel filter on one of my tanks but I now want to
change and use canister filters instead. What do I need to do to make the
transition? Can I leave the plate in and just take out the tubes? Should I wait
a few weeks to allow the canister filters to get established? (I plan to use an
Eheim 2229 wet/dry and an Eheim 2260 on a 215 gallon tank)
<You want to remove the plates. Big job in a 215. If you can move the fish for a
few hours, do it. If not I would start by siphoning out as much gravel as
possible. You can rinse and reuse. Try to get the siphon under the plate before
you lift it too far. There is going to be tons of nasty stuff under it. You want
to get as much out before it floats away into the water. Don't do this until the
new filters are cycled. Watch for ammonia and nitrite spikes afterward>
Second question: is there any catfish similar to the giraffe cat that cleans the
gravel like it does but does not get as big as the giraffe?
<There is a dwarf giraffe catfish, to 8". See here:
http://www.planetcatfish.com/cotm/2003_08.php
Third: is it necessary to have a CO2 system for a planted aquarium?
<No, not for most plants, but some need it and all will benefit. If you add one
watch your pH>
Last question: can Plecos be used in a fresh water planted aquarium?
<Yes, most well fed Plecos will not eat your plants. There is always a chance
however, if we're talking about the Common Pleco. I have three Big Spots and
three Bristlenose in a lightly planted tank. Never lost a leaf. There are also
many meat eating Plecos>
Thanks for all of your help,
Jim G
Gravel, UG Filters
Hi There,
Another question from an eager listener.... ;)
With my current set-up: 125 gallon tank, 2 baby Arowanas (jardinii and yellow
tail), and 2 Emperor 400 power filters......I am wondering if I can put gravel
to cover the bottom of my fish tank??? I usually just scoop up every morning
and night the "poops" of the fishes and 20% water change every week to avoid
ammonia and toxic build up.
<<Hi there. First, you should buy extensions for your Emperor intakes, that will
help a bit with circulation, the filters will be able to suck up waste from a
lower level.>>
What are the disadvantages of putting gravel in my tank? How will I be able to
clean it and remove the "poops"?
<<You can buy a gravel siphon at any decent Local Fish Store. (LFS).>>
Will just stirring the gravel and using a vacuum do the trick to clean them?
<<Gravel vacuuming will do the trick. Vacuuming with your siphon should be done
weekly, when you do a water change. Not only does a siphon remove detritus from
the gravel, it removes water at the same time. Use a good thermometer, take it
to the sink with you when you start filling buckets to re-fill the tank
with...the water should be the same temp! Add dechlorinator to each bucket as
you re-fill. Better yet, buy yourself a Python. Ask for these handy hose kits at
your LFS.>>
Will I be needing an undergravel filter for this set-up? Or will my 2 Emperor
400 power filters be enough? What if I make it 3 Emperor 400's?
<<Undergravel filters are more trouble than they are worth, IME. Your two
Emperors should be sufficient for the time being, you only have two small arows
in this tank. You should keep in mind that with a larger bio-load, you may need
to add filtration later. In other words, if you add more fish, or when your
arrows are about 6-8 inches or so you may need to upgrade. You should keep an
eye on their growth and on the tank, an overly dirty aquarium means insufficient
filtration, not enough water changes, and/or inadequate maintenance is being
done. You will realize it IF the time comes.>>
It is just a laborious duty to have an undergravel filter.....plus in time, a
build up of wastes...will lower the ph of the tank......are some of the reasons
why I am hesitant using undergravel filter.
<<I agree. There are many filters out there that are much easier to maintain,
and do a great job. No need for UGF's at all.>>
Thanks, Antonio
<<Welcome.
-Gwen>>
Undergravel filtration, and funky water quality
Dear fish saviors,
<Good afternoon, Kaz - Sabrina here with you this lovely (rainy) lunch
hour>
I've had a long and generally successful fishkeeping career but this year 2 of
my goldfish died (at ages 19 and 17 years old).
<Oh my. What a loss. I'm so sorry to hear that.>
Only one sad survivor was left. I was away, the water went 'off' and they died
:( Anyway, I worked hard to stabilize the tank with the Lone Black Moor (who had
some scars, general poor condition, floating prob.s etc). He came good and after
a few months I got LBM some friends - a small comet and a small fantail. My
problems came back. The new guys were hungry all the time and I am guilty of
giving in to their shameless begging.
<Just say 'no'! to fish obesity ;) >
Also I changed fish food on advice of LFS (sinking pellets, 34% protein) and am
not sure if this has contributed to the instability.
<And what were you feeding with before? Do your guys get any
vegetable matter?>
LBM seemed happier and with more energy but developed two little white spotty
bits on his head. These then seem to have gone away (I treated with fungal cure)
but he has a new one further back on his head.
<Can you describe this in a bit further detail? Do the spots stick out? Or
are they pits? Are they fuzzy looking? Waxy looking? Look
like cauliflower? How big are they?>
After uncontrollable Ph problems I checked with LFS and changed my filtration
system (from charcoal and wool type filter to undergravel filtration).
<Filtration isn't very directly related to pH swings (except as far as
organic materials building up), I can't imagine why they told you to
switch....>
But my question is (I know its very naive but..) how to I keep it clean? I have
used the gravel siphon cleaner thingie and have done a 25% water change since I
got the UGF two weeks ago but my plants are disintegrating.
<Argh. UGF and live plants do *not* play well together, and
there's not much of a way to make 'em work out. Your only plant
species is elodea, correct? Perhaps try letting it float only, and
see if it grows any better.>
We work in centimetres and litres here in Australia
<I wish we did, too!>
so I'm not sure of how many gallons but tank is 24inches x 12inches x 12inches.
It is certainly not overcrowded, with the LBM and his two new little friends and
the plants are (or were) Elodea.
<Okay, I do believe that's about 15 US gallons. I usually
recommend goldfish to be kept in tanks where they'll have 15-20 gallons per
fish; they are hefty waste producers, and can foul the water very, very quickly. Three
goldfish in a 15g aquarium with an undergravel filter.... well, I can guess that
in short order, you'll have some serious nitrate problems, possibly other water
quality issues, even with the best maintenance possible.>
How do I clean the crud which I assume is collecting under the plastic UGF
tray???
<Wonderful question. I've heard using silicone air hose fed down
the lift tube(s) and siphoning from there will help get some of the grunge
out.>
Should I go easy on the gravel siphon thingie?
<Gosh, no. Vacuum like a madman. And slap that wet/dry
filter back on the tank, too. Then when you vacuum your gravel, let
the filter cartridge stay in the filter so you've got plenty of bacterial life
still around. Probably only vacuum about half the tank each time, as
well.>
Did another partial change today and the fish are happy and starving but there
are lots of floaty bits of plant matter still in there. Should I siphon these
out?
<Yes, absolutely. Dead, decaying plant matter will contribute to
ammonia problems just as will fish waste.>
When I do water changes I use Cycle, ammonia treatment,
<Skip the ammonia remover, unless you're registering ammonia on your ammonia
test - oho, I should mention/ask that you should be testing for ammonia,
nitrite, nitrate, and pH - if you don't, please do get yourself a kit, so you
can have a better grip on your water quality. And far better than
using ammonia remover schtuff is to simply do more frequent water changes.>
pH stabilizer,
<What's the pH out of your tap? It's far more important to keep pH
stable than to keep affecting it chemically; goldfish are very pH tolerant, so
if your tapwater's anywhere close to decent, they'll be fine with out pH
altering chemicals.>
StressZyme, Tristart chlorine and chloramine remover. I let the water sit for
24hours, make sure the temp is the same etc.
<Wonderful.>
My main concern is that I found out from your site that UGF require lots of work
but what work? can you let me know what I need to do to keep my friends happy!
<Mostly the weekly vacuuming of gravel, jamming air hose down lift tubes. UGFs
must be cleaned thoroughly and religiously, lest all that waste building up in
the gravel begin to poison the fish. If it is in any way whatsoever
possible, please please try to get a larger tank for these fellahs. Believe
me, they'd thank you for it. Wishing you and your scaly pals well, -Sabrina>
Cheers, Kaz
Undergravel filtration, and funky water quality - take two
Thanks, Sabrina,
Will head off and get the testing kit today.
<Wonderful! Try to get a liquid reagent type kit, the test
'strips' that you just dip in the water can be grossly inaccurate.>
I suppose what puzzles me is how come I could keep the same number of goldfish
(and same type) in the same tank for 8 years (since the last fish arrived) with
little problem - long living and happy fish - and now everything's going wrong??
<Likely when you went away and the water turned south started your problems. These
are really, really messy, waste producing fish, and in such a small tank,
missing even one regular water change will result in a buildup of waste toxic
enough to kill them. Hence the major reason I usually recommend 15-20
US gallons per goldfish, there's SO much more room for error in a larger
tank.>
The white spots on the remaining old fish are small and very white, about large
pinhead size, they seem to stick out and after a few days just fade to nothing.
<This sounds like either Lymphocystis or fish pox, both of which can be found
in goldfish from time to time. Lymphocystis is kinda cauliflower-like
in appearance, whereas fish pox looks rather waxy. Both are viral
infections, and there is no treatment. Fortunately, neither are often
fatal. Just maintain the best water quality you can, with regular
water changes and testing, and he should be fine.>
Apart from plants in the tank I don't give them any veggies - should I? Thanks! Kaz
<Couldn't hurt. Mine adore unsalted canned peas (rinse, and
squeeze the inside of the pea out of the shell). Blanched zucchini is
another good one. Lots of goodies out there for them, but just the
Elodea will do, if necessary. Best wishes to you, -Sabrina>
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