Re: Need help with velvet, please!! FW   9/27/06
Hello again,
<Sondra>
I am writing again, in hopes of further help with persistent velvet. Here I am over 3 months later, still battling velvet in my hospital tank.
<!>
I've lost a couple of yo yos loaches since my last post. All clown loaches still accounted for, but fins looking rough. Still eating well. Per your suggestion, tried Maracide for weeks to no avail. Temp has been settled at 78 degrees F for months now since I became concerned about further stress due to fluctuation. PH 7.8, nitrites 0, nitrates 10. After trying Velvet Guard for weeks, I was completely out of ideas so I decided to try Coppersafe. Had problems with erroneous readings from the Seachem copper test kit I was using. Contacted them, they sent another kit. The 2nd test kit and sample they provided also proved inaccurate. I switched to an Aquarium Pharmaceuticals copper test kit, even though my LFS says they pulled them all from their shelves due to problems with inaccurate readings.
I simply could not locate another freshwater copper test kit that would work for chelated copper. Currently maintaining a reading of 2.0-ish (hard to tell for sure with this kit). Honestly, all I seem to be killing with copper is fish (as expected). Loach with the most noticeable velvet spots has slowly been becoming more and more covered again. No idea what to do at this point.
I have honestly tried seemingly everything available, some medications multiple times and for weeks at a time. One "new" thing available at LFS now available over the counter, Parasite Clear from Jungle Labs (Praziquantel; Diflubenzuron; Metronidazole; acriflavine).
<Not useful against Oodinium>
Experienced guy at store had no idea what to tell me. Says they use regular copper (not chelated) for these kinds of things, but suggested perhaps I try this Parasite Clear as it was something the parasite may not have yet been exposed to. Neither one of us seemed too confident it would actually work. Haven't tried it yet. Didn't want to add anything with copper in the tank.
This is the only tank I am running at the moment. The original tank has been completely broken down.
Would you have any ideas for me at this point? I'm running out of hope for these fish.
Thanks so much again,
Sondra
<Mmm, for the fishes (cobitids) listed I would try prolonged or higher concentration salt immersion... 1 tsp per five gallons of water indefinitely, or 1-3 minutes in "full-strength" seawater (35 ppt). Dipped fishes (whose trophonts have been removed) need to be moved to dinospore-free settings to avoid re-infection. This should do it... is about the safest, most sure treatment. I would avoid copper use in soft acidic freshwater... too likely to prove toxic, hard to control dosage. Placing dark paper around the tank, leaving the lights off also is of use, as the causative organism is photosynthetic/autotrophic. Bob Fenner>

Is there any real way to rid a 10 gallon system of Ich or Velvet?   9/5/06
<Yes>
  The more
I read the more confused I become.  Everything seams  geared towards a very large system.  I am not sure how this started, but I  noticed tiny white spots on my two clown loaches 24 hours after treating  the tank (sans Kuhlis-they got moved into a temporary 3 gallon quarantine) with  Maracyn for a danio with "cotton mouth".
<Mmm, I would have treated all in place... the system itself is infested>
Is there any correlation between  the 2 diseases?
<Quite possibly yes>
Did the E-mycin treatment cause the Ich to get out of hand  and start munching my fish?  
<Mmm, much less likely>
So far I see no other inhabitants with any  spots, but I am not sure how to treat, or what to treat with.
<Elevated temperature and... Posted... Please read: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwich.htm
and the linked files above>
I am waiting  on a 55 gallon to cycle, and was hoping to move everyone in there, but not with  an outbreak of Ich.  My water parameters have all been stable and ideal, so  I am not sure how this all got started unless I got an infected fish to begin  with,
<Initially, yes>
and the 10 gallon being the only system cycled, there was no where to  quarantine.
<No need to quarantine... need to treat...>
I also am feeling stupid right now for placing part of my  biofilter from the outside power filter into the new system to help it cycle,  and am fearful I just infected it with Ich.  The biofilter chunk was the  only thing transferred to the new system.  
I am hoping this will be OK  because the cysts are in the gravel, and the tomites don't live for more than a  few days at 78 degrees.  Should I raise the uninhabited 55 gallon to 86  degrees?
<Yes, I would>
Mostly I want to know how and if I can rid my small system of Ich  without killing the fish, and if I have possibly infected the new system.   I really don't want to start over after taking this hobby up again after 20  years!
Sarah W.
<Mmm, do read... silver salt, other medications (read re dosing with loaches... likely half concentration) and elevated temperature, careful monitoring of water quality/changes... should do it. Bob Fenner>

Is it velvet? stress? or something else?  7/14/06
Hello,
<Hi there>
        I will make this brief as I know you are all busy. I apologize if this is covered somewhere but I have read all morning and I'm still not sure what to do!
<Oooh, I can't wait, literally, for the vocal interface twixt these devices... To heck with keyboards... and much more intuitive "search tools"... can you?>
        Set up is       29g freshwater
                            whisper 30 power filter
                            temp usually 78 to 80F (82F now)
                            salted minimally (about 2 tablespoons)
<? For what reason, purpose?>
                            running with fish for 8 weeks
                            ammonia    0
                            nitrite    0
                            nitrate barely 20
                            GH  150
                            KH   120
                            pH    7.8
                            1 female rainbow platy, 2 (1M 1F) pot bellied mollies, 2 Cory cats, 3 white skirt tetras
<These last don't "like" salts>
                            3 weeks ago we lost a female platy to dropsy.
<Symptom... what cause?>
That was when I added the salt and started presoaking the food.
<Ahh, I see>
I have never added anything except that salt and Cycle
<Not a big fan of this Hagen product... almost never functional>
to my tank. The tank has been cleaned and had 40%
<Mmm, too much/%... Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwh2ochgs.htm
"and the linked files above".>
water changes weekly since the cycle completed...last time was yesterday.
                            Finally to my problem. My platy is glancing on the substrate and plants and this morning I noticed her rubbing against the mollies as well. I can't see anything on her but she does have a slight gold cast. I noticed that weeks ago and thought it was just her coloring. She is mostly white with black fins and tail and a small amount of red orange on her tail. The white part of her body shows blue green iridescence in the light and has a yellow cast otherwise. My point being that I can't tell if she has this "dusting of gold" that indicates velvet. She defiantly
<And definitely?>
has no white spots and she is eating and acting normally other than the glancing and I've noticed that she has spent a little more time than usual very near the top of the tank just hanging out, not gasping or anything. The tetras are fairly new and frisky and I thought she may have just been a little stressed by them... though it seems they were trying to school with her more than harm her. They really only nip each other. Also she dropped some fry about 2 weeks ago. I found 9 so far,  8 are in a small plastic breeder that floats in the tank and the other I found yesterday when cleaning and couldn't catch the little bugger! There could be more I seem to find some every time I vac. I'm not sure how many she had we were away when she had them. Interestingly, the 2 I found yesterday that have been in the tank are almost twice the size of the ones in the breeder tank...which brings me to the second part of my problem. I set up a tank yesterday for the fry. A 6g Eclipse carbon pad, bio wheel, etc. I figured I'd put the fry in it when it was finished cycling and later use it for a QT / hospital tank. I added Cycle,
<Sub BioSpira for this... trust me>
a silk plant, a small cave, and a few handfuls of substrate from my main tank to get it started.
<Oooh, good move>
When I noticed the platy glancing last night I raised the temp in the small tank to 84F and figured I'd watch her for more symptoms thinking, I could always put her in the new tank if things got bad for her. It is not ideal I know, but at least I could protect the other fish and the fry. I'm sorry I'm not keeping to my promise of being brief. I will conclude.
<Let's wrap this sucker up!>
                    This morning, when I noticed her rubbing against the mollies I got nervous and salted the small tank excessively ( 2 tablespoons) and put her in it. I am monitoring her closely as well as the water chemistry( right now it is the same as the large tank). She seems very relaxed now, swimming regularly and checking everything out. Also she has not glanced once since she was put into this tank!!! So, what is the problem?
<Mmm... very likely "environmental stress"... too much change... too often...>
With no other symptoms I don't want to medicate and wouldn't anyway until I know for sure what the deal is. Could it be velvet?
<Could, but highly unlikely... This protozoan really "whacks 'em" if present... all would be dead within a few hours to days>
Is the goldish yellow cast normal for her coloring or is that velvet?
<Much more likely the former>
Could she just be recovering from the stress of birthing or the tetras?
<Yep>
Does glancing always mean a problem?
<Nope. Some is "natural"... to be expected... akin to our scratching...>
She has been in the small tank for about 6 hours and has eaten and is acting normally now... no clamped fins, no rapid breathing. I first noticed the glancing right after the water change could that be what caused it?
<Oh yes!>
My inclination is to keep her in the small tank and watch her to see if anything develops but I am very concerned that it is not cycled.
<Mmm, the moved gravel should "do it"... along with careful, low feeding>
I don't want the stress of bad water chemistry to make her sicker, but I also don't want to risk losing all of my fish. She is a beautiful fish and one of my first, losing her would be awful but to lose her and all her fry much worse.
                The only other thing is that I noticed some small white buggy things swimming near the bottom of the small tank.
<Don't worry re these either>
They are the size of a pin head. I noticed them because this tank is mostly bare and I was looking so hard at my platy they caught my eye. They could be in the large tank too but would be much harder to see on the substrate. I read somewhere that they are copepods (sorry not sure of that spelling) and actually good for the tank as they eat brown algae and fish like to eat them. They sure make good fry food anyway. So, maybe they are not what I think they are and worthy of note.
<Are worthwhile to mention, and no problem>
My longwinded brief problem may be nothing more than me being paranoid, but I just would rather be safe than sorry. Thank you in advance for any help/ info you can give,
Heidi
<Bob Fenner>

Need help with velvet, please!! Need for WWM article, FAQs f' for, place in FW medications FAQs f'   6/12/06
Hello,
<Hi there>
I apologize in advance for the size of this message. I have been battling a persistent case of freshwater velvet in my 55 gallon, PH 7.1, ammonia-0, nitrites-0, nitrates-10, temp 83 degrees F for past week or so, and am desperate for help! Posting on the loach forum hasn't helped as it seems not many people have had this experience. At this point, remembering the exact duration of the medications I've used could be a bit sketchy. Residents of the tank include 5 clown loaches, 3 yo yo loaches, 3 harlequin rasboras, one stray cardinal tetra and one black phantom tetra (both leftover from an older setup). I was planning a larger tank with additional tetras, more room for my loaches, etc when this struck. The tank has been running for approximately 3 years seemingly disease free. Tank originally had a Home Depot play sand substrate. Just prior to the velvet outbreak, I had converted this to a planted tank with eco-complete/Tahitian moon sand substrate (wouldn't do Tahitian moon sand again, tough on impellers). Most of the plants by this time have been destroyed/eaten by the loaches. Surviving plants have since been moved to a small 5 gallon tank with no fish, except for one hunk of java moss, attached to some bogwood.
<Okay>
First off, in hindsight I have to say that one of the yo yos (in the tank for approximately a year or so) had been flashing on and off since its addition to the tank. I'd see it for a bit, then it would seem to stop. I originally thought the velvet came with the live plants
<Unusual, but possibly carried...>
I added approx. 2 or so months ago,
<Mmm, not likely if for this long>
but now I wonder if the yo yos have had it the whole time.
<Also not typical... there are "velvet free systems" (as opposed to "residual" Ichthyophthirius>
At first I wasn't sure if it was ich or velvet. No experience with velvet and only had ich years ago in my first tank. Largest loach's whole head was covered in very fine dots and eventually a dusty gold coloring,
<More like velvet>
paler than usual, a bit more skittish and hiding more. No spots on body or fins, but you could see exactly how far back on his body his slime coat was affected. For awhile, that was the only noticeable fish with spots, though I thought one of the yo yo's color had changed to a more yellowish, kind of sickly color. Also noticed then that they (yo yos) seemed sort of "bottomed out". They would swim a bit, sink to the bottom, sit for awhile, swim a bit more, stop suddenly and just sit. Jerky movements, behavior different than before.
First treatment started April 31, 2006-10 days of Rid Ich by Kordon. Had had great results with this in the past for ich.
<If this was ich... I would have first tried Mardel's "Maracide" given the make-up of what you list here as livestock>
There were 20-40%ish water changes in between each type of medicine/treatment that I used here, always with thorough gravel vac.
<Oh! And this in your main tank? Likely the Malachite Green was immediately absorbed by the substrate>
When the Rid Ich didn't seem to work, I went to an old (original loach-safe-at-full-strength formula) of Maracide until that ran out after 5 days.
Tried raising temps up to 88 degrees F
<Both good>
at one point for about 10 days or so, I believe, with 2 Coralife UV sterilizers hooked up in tandem (9w and 18w), until I got nervous having heat so high with no meds.
<!?>
I originally bought the larger UV sterilizer for the larger tank I was planning.
<Ultraviolet light won't effect such cures...>
Read good things about Seachem Paraguard. Used that for appox. 10 days or so. Somewhere around this time, I noticed my nitrates slowly disappearing. Then checked for nitrites and was getting a reading of 2.5ppm.
<Yeeikes!>
Controlled that via water changes over a few days, ended up back at 0ppm. Nitrates seem fine now (about 10-15ppm). Just before the spike, I had removed an Emperor 400 filter from the tank (was running with an Eheim 2213) for months. The Tahitian moon sand had damaged 2 Emperor filters over the months after I had changed the substrate. Tried replacing the impellers, to no avail. The filter was just so noisy I couldn't stand it anymore. Also, at the same time, I covered my eco-complete/Tahitian moon sand substrate with gravel to help keep it out of the water column. Thus the nitrite spike, I believe. I turned off the UV sterilizers at this point, thinking perhaps they may some slight affect on the rebuilding of the nitrates. Also I wasn't sure about the UVs possible affect on any meds.
<Can "plate out" some formulations of copper compounds... You haven't used these from what you've listed>
Right around this time was when I noticed many of the fish had much more rapid gilling. Added an airstone, and that has helped a lot. Read good things about Jungle Ich Guard. Tried that for 1 week, once at full dose out of desperation. Recently read on loach forum to add salt to 2.75 tsps/gallon over a few days as a general treatment for parasites. Not sure if this is enough to eliminate velvet?
<Not generally effective>
I am at that level now (over 4 day period) with Aquatrol Acriflavine dosed per directions, 2 drops/gallon and replaced with water changes. Acriflavine in tank now for 3 days. Should I dose the whole tank again at 2 drops/gallon as per directions?
<... You shouldn't be treating the main tank period...>
Loaches appear mostly the same but are definitely more stressed, one a bit more pale, one now with a torn fin. Lights have been off/tank covered for approximately 1 week, prior to that, lights were mostly on. Largest, most heavily covered loach, still looks about the same, as do the others. All fish still eating, though the largest loach not quite as hungrily, haven't lost any fish yet. Been vaccing gravel/changing water approx every 2 days except during earlier treatments of Rid Ich and Maracide. I have wanted to dip the largest loach, but there is no way to catch this fish. I can't even follow him with my eyes!
I have no idea what else to do at this point. I'm feeling drained, but trying not to give up. I bought some Coppersafe and a copper test kit. I know alot of people advise against it and I'm afraid to use it as I have no experience, but I will be officially out of ideas when/if this salt/acriflavine treatment doesn't work. Would you please have any advice to offer? Again, so sorry for the long post, it's been a long road. Once again, it's the quarantine lesson learned the hard way.
Thank you kindly for your help! I always enjoy your advice to others,
Sondra
<Sondra... whatever treatment regimen you settle on, the medication needs to occur outside the system... too much of what is there will interfere, absorb the treatment chemical/s... I'd go back with Maracide, elevated temperature... in a hospital tank... monitoring water quality... allowing the main tank (with a thorough gravel vacuuming to remove mulm, etc....) to go "fallow" (sans fish hosts) for a month or more...
Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwfishmedfaqs.htm
for ancillary background. Bob Fenner>