Find out wholesale prices, Re: selling lvstk. to LFSs   12/30/08
Hi there!
I've recently set up a tank of fancy guppies and they roll out a plethora of babies. The pet stores sell the adult fish for $2-3, so I think hmm...maybe I could start selling some to a local pet store every couple weeks to help pay off the cost of this hobby ;).
<A good idea and a worthy project for sure... Providing better, local stock, reducing imports>
The problem is, I can't view what wholesale prices are at any wholesale supplier websites I can find- evidently I must be a "business" to do this. Is there any way to view the prices local aquariums buy these fish for so I could know a fair price to offer per fish?
Thanks,
Nick
<Mmm, it's likely better here for me to "cut to the chase" and make a statement re the "usual" sort of mark up for small (a dollar, more/less) aquatic livestock... It's generally marked up about 2-3 times... Triple crowning for somethings like guppies... so, If a store had them on offer for $3, they likely paid about $1... That being said, you might well do better to bargain for credit with the store in exchange for your stock...
Something more like "half credit" toward what they sell them for. Does this make sense to you? Bob Fenner>

Re: Find out wholesale prices 12/30/08
Dear Bob Fenner,
<Yes Nick>
Thanks- makes great sense! Really all I needed was a ballpark estimate to know how much to offer.
-Nick
<Ahh! Figured as much... Keep breeding!!! BobF>

Swim Bladder in one day.. I think... Cichlid, Neotrop., Texas... env. dis.  12/17/08
Hi
I am begging for help.
<No need to beg; we're happy to help!>
I have a 4 yr old Texas.
<Texas cichlid, I presume?>
She had babies about 8 months ago. She has killed the convict father, and tended to the babies herself.
<She cross-bred with a Convict cichlid? Never heard of that before. Hope you didn't sell/give away the fry. Hybrid fish are a blight on the hobby, and while fine enough as your own pets, it's very unfair for a retailer to sell them to unsuspecting fishkeepers.>
She started not eating about two weeks ago, and stayed away from them.
<Broodcare in most cichlids does indeed weaken after a few weeks, though this varies.>
A few picked on her, but she ran them away. I try to clean the tank a lot, due to messy babies. It has never been a problem.
<It's almost always best to remove cichlid fry 2-3 weeks after hatching to their own tank for separate rearing. Because fry are very sensitive to water quality, they often stunt or otherwise do poorly when kept with the adults.>
I unfortunately let the water level get low. After doing a partial clean, and refill, today I go see them, and she is swimming at the top, in a horrible U shape, Head down, and taking gasping air.
<Almost certainly a reaction to a sudden change in water quality, water chemistry, or temperature. Texas cichlids need hard (10+ degrees dH), basic (pH 7.5) water around 25 C (77 F). If the pH had dropped between water
changes, in particular because of insufficient carbonate hardness, then doing a big water change could have switched the pH from something acidic to something basic, putting a massive (and potentially lethal) stress on your cichlid. The only other thing that would do something similar is the introduction of some toxin; specifically, if the bucket had residues for something like bleach or detergent, that can cause severe reactions in your fish.>
I moved her to small tank, fresh water, and Epsom salt. She doesn't swim anymore, unless disturbed, but still in a U shape, moving her fins rapidly but wont swim straight.
<Moving fish in shock is rarely a good idea; much better to leave them to recover from the first shock rather than impose a second one on them.>
I really don't want to lose my girl, I have always taken care of her the best I could. She is about 8" and healthy(i hope) the tank she was in is a 55gl, she has about 30 babies (still under 3in small) some smaller.
<Please don't give away or sell those hybrid fry. It's one of the most irresponsible things any aquarist can do. If you can't house them yourself, then painlessly destroy them. I don't say this to be mean, but because of the "big picture" that sometimes gets lost when people get attached to animals as individuals.>
Her new hospital tank is a ten gal, and Epsom salt with 82* water.
How long should she take to heal, she wont eat anything, so i am really scared.
<If she's going to recover from shock, then it may well take a couple of days before she's swimming right, and maybe even a week before she's ready to act normally around you and feed. Cichlids are among those fish that react badly to sudden changes. If the problem was poisoning, then performing repeated water changes to flush out toxins would help, but obviously the incoming water MUST have identical water chemistry and temperature to the outgoing water. I don't normally recommend freshwater aquarists use carbon for a variety of reasons, but if you suspect poisoning, then this is one those few situations where fresh carbon makes sense. As you know hopefully, carbon needs replacing every couple of weeks, so any old carbon in your filter will be doing precisely nothing useful.>
Please help me..I love this fish
<Good luck, Neale.>

Re: Swim Bladder in one day..I think... (Euthanising hybrids, why it's necessary; RMF, feel free to comment)
I must first say Thank you for the help you gave me. I now think that could have been what happened. She is still in the same condition as before, but now the color is much brighter, and she look a bit more relax, Thank for all your help.
<Glad to hear it.>
NOW, Yes the Texas and the Convict did mate, they were the only ones in the tank, for that four months. So yes these are hybrid babies.
<Oh dear.>
But really, you would purposely destroy (kill) a fish, that had no choice in what they were born from.
<Yes. But before you condemn me for it, think logically for a moment.
Single species fish are predictable in terms of size, temperament, breeding behaviour, likelihood of genetic diseases and abnormal growth patterns.
Hybrids are none of these things Hybrids may be fine as youngsters, but they may be pre-disposed to problems as they mature, may exhibit reduced fertility, or may behave in aberrant ways compared with one or both of their parents.. By passing hybrids on to other aquarists, you also increase the chances of genes from species A getting into fish sold as species B.
Someone buys species B, and then find it isn't doing any of the things it should be doing. It doesn't look like it should, and it's the wrong size, it can't breed normally. In many cases species cultivated by aquarists come from very specific places. This is common among the cichlid varieties from the Rift Valley lakes and Central America. These varieties are particular colour forms of species with distinctive genes. When "mixed" in aquaria that genetic uniqueness is lost. Is that a big deal? Yes, if you're a collector. But it's incredibly important if you're a scientist. Some of these varieties are endangered in the wild, a few even extinct. They only exist in captivity. Hybrids put additional stress on wild populations of fish as well. Sensible fishkeepers don't want to keep hybrids because of the problems mentioned above. Because so many hybrids are in pet stores, any serious fishkeepers demands wild-caught examples of many species prone to hybridisation. This means that instead of the trade building up supplies of captive-bred cichlids, there's still a huge industry collecting wild-caught fish, in some cases having a very real impact on the populations of wild fish. When aquarists allow them to hybridise or cross-breed, they're reducing the chances of keeping that species or variety from extinction. In every possible way, hybrids are bad. Hybrids are unpredictable, they're prone to problems, they make it impossible to set up balanced communities, and they increase the chances of wild fish going extinct. Hence as a broad comment, hybridisations is something aquarists should actively try to avoid. I'm an animal lover. I spend an hour or more per day volunteering at this web site to help people save the lives of their fish and reptiles. But I'm also a scientist and try to see the big picture.>
I have read this type of article before, it had something to do , with breeders, losing money, Many fish from breeders are new breeds, cross bred, and a new species is born. Flowerhorn, is one to start with.
<And pretty awful it is too. Nature has managed to come up with around 2000 cichlid species by herself, each one finely adapted to the environment it finds itself. There are plenty of different colours and behaviours, more than enough for everyone. And yet breeders in Asia thought they could out-do Nature and come up with something themselves. I suppose it's a question of taste, but to me the Flowerhorn is the fish equivalent of Pamela Anderson: silicone breasts, nose jobs, peroxide-blonde hair and tattoos all over the place. May be Hefner's thing, but certainly not mine.
I'd sooner take the cichlids Nature has created, and do my best to learn about these wonderful fish on their own terms.>
As far a fish stores, telling me they have no way of selling hybrids, people don't like them, so they wouldn't purchase them from me, but they would be willing to just take them off my hands for free. K-M-A... I was born in '69 not '99.
<I'm assuming "KMA" is an insult. Fine. You may indeed keep your hybrid cichlids from breeding. But what about the other people? How long before they cross them with some other Convicts or Texas cichlids. And then, before you know it, there are messed up genes all over the place. And I'm here, having to answer questions from a person keeping what he or she thought was a Convict, but it's the wrong size, behaving in the wrong way, or getting deformed or sick for no apparent reason. What you're doing is selfish and irresponsible. You're doing what you think is acceptable by your personal standards, without considering the repercussions for everyone else, including the fish.>
These are some of the most beautiful fish ever. They are big and colorful like the Texas, with black stripes like the convict..You can you tube some..but i haven't seen any as nice as these.. I am not a hobbyist, I just happen to have two fish, that had fry, so should I kill the fry, because of nature taking it's course?
<Yes.>
As a professional as you proclaim to be, I would think you would have some heart for the fish, that you spend much of your time learning, shame on you.
<Why shame on me? My love for animals and for the hobby doesn't need your justification. I'm the guy spending an hour each day helping people. I think my wish to help animals have better lives is perfectly obvious. That I'm a scientist and fishkeeping writer as well simply means I'm looking at the situation from a wider angle than you are.>
I would never kill anything, maybe you are someone that doesn't believe in mixed races also..what a shame.
<Am mixed race, so your comment here is insulting as well as irrelevant.
Humans are all one species, and certainly not one in any danger of extinction. Convicts and Texas cichlids are different species separated by millions of years of evolution, each adapted to different environments.
With so many cichlids threatened with extinction in the wild, it's up to aquarists to help preserve them in captivity. Indeed, some are effectively extinct in the wild already, and the only ones on Earth exist in aquaria:
species from Madagascar and Lake Victoria in particular.>
I do thank you for helping me with my fish, but i also wished i had never come across your site..
<Look, as I said in the original message, I am genuinely not trying to be mean. But I do have a responsibility to everyone in the hobby and not just you. If you don't care about anyone else who might end up with your fish (or their descendants), and have no interest in the welfare of cichlid species, then that's not really something I can get my head around.>
P.S. I do not sell these fish, I give them to close family, and the truth about them being hybrid. Plus they must give it back, if unable to care for it, just so they wont become fish food, for larger fish. They have a right to live just as anything else..Horrible, and shame on you...
<I suggest you read some of what I've said about feeder fish and euthanasia for example. When it comes to senseless killing of fish, I'm absolutely against it. Much of what I write here is about keeping fish happier as well as healthier: bigger schools of tetras, livebearers with lots of females not just males, and so on. My record on animal cruelty is pretty clear.
It's a shame you don't see that on those few times I recommend painlessly destroying fish (note the word "painlessly") it's not because I like killing fish. It's because there's a bigger picture here. If you're a vegan who has never harmed an animal in your life, then that's one thing; but if you eat meat and dairy, wear wool and leather, then you're already responsible for far more animal deaths than would be the case by euthanising some hybrid cichlids. The "right to life" you talk about is contextual; as a meat-eater and wool-wearer, I abhor animal suffering, but I accept that in some situations killing animals is necessary.>
May Santa miss your chimney this year..for your evil thoughts...
<Doesn't seem a very nice thing to say. Please look at the big picture; this isn't about cruelty to animals, but about responsibility and conservation.>
Yes i know i am to old to believe in Santa, and 'no' he does not exist,. But it's snowing here, and i still have some holiday cheer...so...have a safe and pleasant holiday this year, okay I'll talk to Santa..you may have children....
<Well, okay. Cheers, Neale.>
<<Mmm... the issue of producing, allowing hybridization between species in our care is important, and still (obviously) a bit controversial. For the reasons stated above in plain, simple terms, I am in agreement with Neale (Dr. Monks, he has a doctorate in Palaeontology (spelling in proper English)...). I too wish that we would choose to avoid this sort of "polluting"... as it is my concern that our planet is just too small, changing too quickly in ways that are damaging... self-defeating... to preserve the mix of genotypes/multiple allelism that is the overall biota of our world. Methinks that too much, too fast tinkering in allowing shifting of this mix is very dangerous indeed. I have several speculations as to probable ultimate outcomes from breaks in the "web of life" in a given biosphere... even world-wide... None are pleasant to contemplate. Mmm, lastly a further general statement re our choices, choosing as individuals... It has been my desire to impress on others how paramount it is to understand themselves, facts... science behind important decisions... Whether we have captive aquatic systems may seem minor compared with issues of our own "carbon footprint", ultimately whether we reproduce ourselves... But I assure you, the long- and- profound effecting actions of releasing non-indigenous species to habitats that they displace, affect other flora and fauna, and this question of mixing species that can, will possibly persist, go on to possibly genetically mix further, IS of extreme importance. I ask you as a fellow hobbyist, citizen and human of Earth to think carefully, to not engage in this practice. Bob Fenner>>

Re: Swim Bladder in one day..I think... (Euthanising hybrids, why it's necessary; RMF, feel free to comment)  12/18/08
I was just going to send another e-mail, asking the Doctor to please excuse my language in my earlier reply. I in no way, personally meant to insult the Doctor, on his/her personal preference on the subject of mix race.. I too am of African/German heritage. I was completely out of line.
<No harm done. Let's drop it, shall we?>
I was am still stressing about my beloved Texas, She isn't doing any better, i can only pray that she does.<Cichlids do react badly, sometimes violently to sudden changes. Have done
this myself once, when changing water, and accidentally adding freezing cold water from an outdoor rainwater butt into a dwarf cichlid tank. The fish went crazy, rolling onto their backs and turning black. They did all recover though. Keep the fish calm, ideally in a quiet, even dark, tank, and she should settle.>
I may also assure you, that I am not in anyway, trying to inter breed any type of fish. They just happened to mate, they were in the same tank for three years, and then one day, there were babies. I still have them, because I don't want the fish store to pass them off as something else. They wouldn't buy them, but would take them for free, same story, different line...
<OK, we agree on this. There's nothing wrong with hybridising fish for your own pleasure; it's when they get into the "food chain" so to speak, that things get messy. To be fair, many fish we keep as pets are likely hybrids already. Angelfish, Platies, Swordtails, Mollies, perhaps even Goldfish, to name a few. But these fish are normally sold as domesticated animals, and there's no risk of confusing them with wild-caught specimens because wild-caught examples of these are virtually absent from the trade. But cichlids are different, because we sell them not as domesticated fish but as true species, and so confusion between the "real thing" and a hybrid can cause problems.>
Please let him/her know that the KMA is Kiss My Angel fish..I should have said that straight.
<Good catch!>
Still I under stand what you are saying, but even in the wild these things happen, so i would not understand, killing them because it happened in my tank. We all have our own reasons for things. But, to kill Gods creation, because of inter breeding, is not something i would consciously do.
<That's fine. If you want to keep these fish at home and give them a good life, that's great. Giving them to people you know won't breed from them is also good. But please don't let them turn up in a pet store!>
I do thank you other wise for the generous help your doctor gave me, to try and save my girl.
<I'm a doctor of rocks, not animals. Not sure why Bob mentioned it, and it really isn't something that makes a difference here!>
I thank you once more.
Lori
<Good luck, Neale.>
<<Mmmm, I mention your scientific status for twofold reasons... that I'm impressed that a person of such academic caliber is willing to devote their time/efforts to help others in our hobby interest, and secondly, to bolster credence in your response (this IS the west after all). I would like to last make a comment re the supposed-safety of entrusting others with hybrids, or any matter outside of ones immediate control. This doesn't happen... no one has any recourse, knowledge of what might occur once this life is outside their systems... To make utterances otherwise belies a lack of veracity, knowledge or both. History is replete with examples of "animals, plants, algae, microbes... let go"... and their lessons/consequences. Lastly, the hypocrisy and lack of thought in ascribing to god/s our own actions/non-actions I find more than distasteful. I reject such assertions out of hand. We made these idols and make our own lives. That there is life, there is death... by "keeping" some, you doom others... Bob Fenner>>

For Neale, please. Re: "pro-life view on fish hybridization"  12/18/08
Hi Neale,
<Hello Nicole,>
I hope this doesn't add to the spectacle, but I just thought I would say, once again: you have the patience of a saint! Your reply to the person who purported to have the "pro-life view on fish hybridization" was incredibly gracious, given that much of the message was personal bashing directed at you.
<I prefer to view these things as simple miscommunications, and figure it helps if both sides try and state things a bit clearer next time around.>
At least you were able to find a silver lining, and expound on the topic like the scholar that you are - informing many web denizens for years to come, surely.
<Thank you.>
I would like to reiterate the obvious: since fish are not able to be neutered or sterilized, if you are going to keep together species of fish that hybridize, and they breed (as is inevitable), the only sensible thing to do is to euthanize the fry or keep them yourself. Even giving them away to friends and family could be tricky, since a handful of hybrid fish containing males and females might well mate again and form yet another aberration! Giving them to the store who will accept, but not pay, for them - well, two words: feeder fish.
<Unfortunately what you say is quite true, and an angle I'd not considered (feeder fish being virtually unknown in the UK). It is a disturbing though that any fish you give away to a pet store expecting to be re-homed could well end up becoming food for a piranha. That being so, painlessly destroying unwanted fry yourself is very definitely the humane option. It's also worth remembering not even one in a hundred cichlid fry survive to maturity in the wild; that's why most species produce hundreds of fry every couple of months, given the chance.>
The "innocence" of the fish has nothing to do with the responsibility we have -- as their keepers in glass boxes -- to euthanize the fry. To ascribe innocence or guilt to a fish would be absurd.
<From a theological perspective you are quite right; animals, being amoral, can be neither innocent nor sinners. To be honest though, I tend to work from a particularly good 'Calvin & Hobbes' cartoon where Hobbes makes the point that he doesn't *want* to be given human motives or behaviours, since he rather looks down on them. So why bring a decent, noble animal down to our level!>
These fish simply cannot be sold, the same way a garden variety canine mutt cannot be sold at the pet store (only those designer hybrids like labradoodles and cockapoos, but that's another story - there's a fine line in there somewhere, certainly).
<Variety dogs and cats are all within a single species, so though the parallel isn't precisely the same as humans (different "races" of humans don't equate to different breeds of dog) certainly all dogs are as closely related to one another in terms of genes as all the different humans on the planet are. That said, my dog breeding friends insist that there is much harm done in the dog world by careless breeding, not just in terms of unwanted mutts. But also things like German Shepherds cranked out on farms with genetic disorders, or "en vogue" puppies of various types mass produced with little interest in quality, just money.>
Besides, if they bred once, they will likely breed again, and then what are you going to do with 40 more Texvict cichlids? I bet your friends and family will be less enthusiastic to receive them this time around!
<No argument from me here.>
Common livebearers are basically a lost cause, a "purebred platy" is an oxymoron. Malawi mutts are practically there, too...but now, this?
<Again, no argument. As someone who loves telling people that African cichlids can be like coral reef fish in terms of colours, it's disheartening to see the same "mixed blue Africans" in the pet stores, again and again.>
Keeping species of American cichlids from interbreeding is so preventable, and to say that these fish are desirable because of having such unique colors and shape is just unreal. Sir, that was born in '69 not '99 - who are you to be creating a new breed of fish?
<In this case, it was a genuine accident, and while not something I'd personally want to see happen in everyone's aquarium, these things do happen. Like teenage pregnancies, there's a difference between what you might say in terms of public policy, and how you'd react when it was your own son or daughter involved. Not that I'm putting these things on an equal footing, I hasten to add! But simply as an analogy. As I said earlier this evening, there's nothing wrong with homing these fish yourself and enjoying them. But the main thing is that these fish aren't "turned loose" in the marketplace. If these fish did spawn again, this is one situation where removing the eggs and disposing of them would be entirely appropriate. Any catfish or loach of your choice should do the job for you, if you're squeamish!>
Thanks for listening to my rant, in reply to the ranter. I personally hope that Neale finds lots of fish and telescope equipment in his stocking!
<Hmm... wet fish flopping about in my underwear... sounds fun!>
Wishing you all a very happy holiday, your friend in fish,
Nicole
<Thanks for writing, and have a merry Christmas yourself. Neale.>

Re: Swim Bladder in one day..I think... (Euthanising hybrids, why it's necessary; RMF, feel free to comment)  12/19/08
Hi Bob,
<Neale>
I appreciate this, and thank you. But in all honesty, I doubt my (pretty minimal) scientific credentials matter much compared against the cumulative experience of the WWM crew generally. It's just a pleasure to be part of this team.
Cheers, Neale
<Ahh, my friend... in the final synthesis, we are indeed only whom we are, what we do... However, the benchmarks of our activity, credentialing is of note, use at times. As for myself, I am satisfied to have acted in my own best self interests, and have shared, am continuing to share with others.
For their enjoyment, edification... BobF>