|
| |
|
FAQs on Iodine Use, Supplements
Related Articles: Iodine Supplement,
Marine
System Additives,
Related FAQs: Iodine
2, & FAQs on Iodine:
Rationale/Use, Iodine Testing/Test Kits,
Sources of Iodine/Supplements,
Dosing, Interactions,
Troubleshooting/Fixing, & General
Supplements, Calcium,
A juvenile Acro colony in N. Sulawesi. Stony, Soft
Corals and other Cnidarians, life period require trace amounts of I2...
|
 |
Sea Vegetable…Nori – 02/01/08
Having been involved with marine systems for many years, I have accumulated
a large selection of books on the subject.
<<Me too!>>
Just want to say that Bob Fenner's book 'Conscientious Marine Aquarist' is
positively outstanding and my constant reference when contemplating adding
another critter to my collection.
<<Indeed… And at the risk of sounding like a kiss-up… Bob’s experiences and
knowledge across virtually every aspect of the hobby lends to some very valuable
insights. And, after getting to know him, I can say he is truly “in it” for the
hobby’s sake. Also, I think Bob is currently working on an update of the book…am
sure it too will be well worth owning>>
I recently added a dwarf lion because I learned from the book why my first one
died (goldfish :< )
<<Mmm…>>
Just one question... The book mentions marine sea vegetables and so I went to my
health store and purchased Nori. My fish love it!
<<And you are surprised? [grin]>>
What worries me though is on the list of nutrition facts Iodine is 70%.
<<Yes…as a “natural” source>>
Is this safe for my fish?
<<It is…and as a whole, this “seaweed” addition to their diet will enrich their
health>>
I could not find any reference to it on the FAQS.
<<Got one there now! [grin]>>
Thanks for a terrific web site!
Carol
<<Most welcome…is a collective effort. Regards, EricR>> <Ah, yes. RMF>
Iodine Article part 1
07/27/07
Bob.
I think we can call this done for part 1. This version of part 1 is still longer
than I wanted but I am ‘more happy’ with this version than the previous writes.
With some editing we could break it down further if needed.
However, when fully completed it should accomplish these goals:
Testing is critical
The halogens are some serious chemicals that should be handled with care
Each aquarium is different and needs to be viewed as such
Livestock hail from different places and have needs that evolved (separate from
our tanks)
Some of the common and repeated terms are in charts for easier reference
Should clarify the FAQs we have already as I went through these line for line
looking for common themes and concerns
Part two will be easier. I purchased both the Seachem and Salifert test kits
(this is the tough part: getting all the testing I want done without buying more
kits). I am going to try and contact both of the companies tomorrow and see what
I can dig up from them before I start. I also want to contact Kent so when I
test their products I don’t get surprises on the data from stabilized iodine
species. This part also is where I can get into the types of dosing, technique
and some lab tips from years of experience to help reduce error.
I have had little contact with my old boss and can assume he is not on board
here. This is what forced my hand on the testing regimen. I did want his input
and wanted to write this with him but have no response.
Email me any changes or questions you see fit.
As for pictures I had considered some shots of iodine containing items such as
foods (labeled and not), supplements also containing iodine and the iodine test
kits (or iodine additives I will use- both from Kent: Lugol's and the Iodide).
I also know full well now why this was not done sooner by anyone… don’t get me
wrong it has been fun, but a nightmare to arrange! ; )
Sincerely,
James Zimmer
<Well done James. Will review the first section hopefully later today. BobF>
Re: Iodine Article part 1 07/27/07
Thank you Bob.
<Thank you James. Have just finished reading through pt. 1... I do like the
brief coverage of the chemistry here... as well as the tentative nature of your
statements...>
This was a tough topic. It would very easy to only say “add x drops of Lugol's
for a 100 gallon tank.” However, this would be irresponsible, I simply don’t
believe we know what could be a realistic depletion rate or how the element is
converted and or reconverted in so many different settings. For instance, do I
have a phytoplankton population at all or are my corals consuming it?
<Yes... as all "broad topics", particularly ones outside the general public's
background, it is dangerous to make sweeping statements... Am sure you sense
this precaution in my brief remarks to folks on WWM, in articles et al... Of a
necessity, one can only state in this category that "following directions",
testing, and non-continuous use are suggested>
The addition of a halogen should be well thought out and thoroughly understood.
I never forgot the precautions we took in fume hoods working with bromine and
iodine. The hazards for those reagents were well understood for those of use in
the chemical field. Over time many have died or had shortened lives from not
knowing the full effects of the reagents they handled.
<Yes... all they want is one more electron... and they WILL steal it from most
anything else>
I find that there are more questions one should as about there own tank than
general answers can provide. I had a series of questions that each aquarist
should ask in one of the versions. I think I will include these in part three.
<Mmm, okay... though I would try to limit this to two parts...>
I simply believe most people know very little about the marine animals they
purchase. This was the point for the one section on livestock. We may not be
able to get satisfactory answers in great detail. However, all these ocean
treasures deserve better than the mandarin fish get being stuck to starve in so
many tanks by those who just don’t know better! There is a lot of ‘wrong’ to be
seen in any given fish store when you are not in the know.
<Yes... agreed. But, to the point. What are we going to do about it/this? I say
keep writing, sharing... >
I think the best thing I did for both myself and my salty pets was reading your
book before I ever started. I may have made some mistakes along the way but it
kept me on a good path and my little wet friends as healthy and happy as I can
make them in their captive homes.
<Hence our efforts. Cheers, BobF>
Sincerely,
James Zimmer
Oil on top of water maybe from yellow head
Jawfish?? Iodine article almost complete. 9/13/07
Bob and or crew.
<James>
Sorry for the delay on the iodine article. I have had a summer of tank issues as
had my associate (mostly temperature fluctuations but also the following
question). I have lost some frogspawn colonies and his corals have seen better
days with a dramatic temperature shock when the heater burned out attempting to
maintain tank temp on a cold night with a fan left on from the hot day.
<Yes>
Before going away I prepared some frozen food for my mother-in-law to feed the
fish. I used the usual thaw and decant the pack liquid method and thought I did
a reasonably good job of removing the excess pack juice and oils. Upon return
there was a layer of oil on surface of the 24 gallon tank (the 75 gallon tank
cleared up much easier). I first blamed the food as one brand of frozen matched
the general consistency and odor/color. This was discarded. It has been two plus
months and the problem continues to persist.
Despite skimming the oil off with a plastic container and letting the top layer
drain into the cup the oil continues to return. I parted ways with the
Condylactis anemone (to reduce tank load) and have increased the frequency of
small water changes. Temperature fluctuations have been a big issue all summer
with inconsistent air flow and 5 degree F temperature swings sometimes occurring
despite my best efforts and abilities to keep the upstairs air conditioned or
windows open when conditions allow. Could the oil on the top of the water be
from the Jawfish (stress response perhaps)?
<Mmm, no... Could be from another endogenous source but much more likely from an
exogenous... Simple cooking oil use, aerosol in closely contained indoor
environments very often entail such coatings... Can be an important impediment
to gas exchange... I'd keep wicking off with plain, white, non-odorized paper
towels...>
Bob, please send me an email with some contact information to send the iodine
article.
<Oh! Can send along here as an attachment or my personal addr.:
fennerrobert@hotmail.com>
Writing it has been a struggle to keep it both an easy read yet stay true to the
science behind the halogen family.
<Ahh!>
My associate has done the testing and is less than impressed with the test kits
thus far.
<Heee!>
One of his former occupations was water testing in an environmental lab. Again,
sorry for the delay.
Thank you.
James Zimmer
<No worries. Bob Fenner>
Re: Oil on top of water maybe from yellow
head Jawfish?? Iodine article almost complete. – 09/14/07
Actually, there are fewer worries (about it going to happen) since I got
laid off this past Monday. Now it is done.
<Okay...>
I now have quite some time to get the sources and rewrite (hopefully final on
this one) once again. I love/hate the article as is. It almost tells it like I
want to impart the knowledge. I keep asking non-technical people to read it and
let me know what is and is not clear.
<A good technique>
I am also concerned about giving the green light on any amount to just pour into
a system. Any dose amount is easily conveyed out of context in the form of "oh,
I read use X drops of AAA material for 50 gallons... sure that should be fine."
The fish and coral within a tank are very much captive and stuck in case of an
overdose.
<I am in total agreement...>
I keep wicking and skimming the oil. I will continue of course. Odd it is just
the one tank if it is external; otherwise why not both from cooking oils or
grease? Different flow and filtration dynamics might come into play there.
James
<This and different biotic make-up... Bob Fenner>
Re: Oil on top of water maybe from yellow
head Jawfish?? Iodine article almost complete. – 09/14/07
Yes, very true. Hmmm... I underestimated just how much different the two
tanks could be on a biological level (I felt that more a capacity issue)
since they share so many similar substrates, live rock and inhabitants going
back and forth (vacationing... lol).
Here again, many dynamics are at work in similar systems even under the same
roof. It is little wonder how much things can and will then be changed going
from different source waters and areas of the world. This gives a true
appreciation for just how different our little aquatic worlds can potentially be
and why so much time should be invested in research.
<And valuable insight to our perceptions of reality... finite and infinite...
games>
This is yet another data point for why indiscriminant applications of tank
additives are generally a mistake.
<Yes>
I have to think the best value/dollar spent is on more salt mix and water
changes. We really all manage an import export business in tank nutrients when
we get down to it.
<One way to look at this>
However, no matter how well we perform, there is no way to manage this as
efficiently as the currents of the seas to which all our pets (aside from
tank/captive raised) adapted to over the ages. It never ceases to be amazing to
learn about the little worlds we create.
<One way...>
It is also nice to see the visual cues and behaviors when you manage to do
things they all like and do well with.
James
<B>
Iodine drip 6/13/07
Hello Bob and crew.
<James>
I wanted to add my thoughts on dosing with iodine and pose the idea of using
a pre-made solution and drip it in as one use calcium or Kalkwasser
(assuming proper testing for need of course!). Does this seem a more
reasonable approach than just adding a dose at a time?
<Mmm, marginally so... there are a few factors to consider... One is the
transient nature of the various valence states of this halogen in biological
marine water... Dosing "all at once" likely results in getting some to all
parts of the system...>
Reading of the FAQ(s) led me to the conclusions: iodine is depleted quickly
and is sometimes accidentally overdosed.
<More the former than latter by far>
Preparing a stock solution with DI water
<Distilled is best... and dark bottle storage...>
ahead of time seems to be a reasonable way to control the dose and the
frequency of addition into a system. I would believe that before one would
attempt to do this (or add at all) they should do some vigorous testing with
a baseline of iodine at time of addition of the new water, water in the tank
before and after addition and then periodic tests over a given frequency
(hours/several hours) to measurable depletion in order to ascertain the
baseline need of iodine in the system given present parameters and stock.
<Yes>
This information can then easily be graphed and documented for future
reference using Excel.
<Mmm, actually, need to continue to test each time... to be sure...>
It would also be good to note the components of and residents (known) of the
system as these conditions do change over time (replacement/new fish, corals
and equipment).
<Ah, yes>
I spent a great deal of time reading up on iodine when I came up with my
idea of dosing as a preventative antiseptic for an injured fish knowing that
iodine is poisonous. It pays to read up before good intentions send our
tanks to possible oblivion. I have to believe that as an antiseptic the
levels needed would be harmful to any main tank and also so in quarantine.
The chemistry responses in the FAQ(s) were cool.
<Well... of a necessity, and by plan, very scant... One must need be so on
the Net... Too easy to "give" folks some fact/oid that they can/will cling
to as useful, actionable, w/o enough understanding here>
Is there any news of an article coming regarding the chemistry of iodine in
our tanks in the near future?
<Actually... I'd like to have you pen this... Gather the pet-fish literature
(even just the Net) together, a quick read through a public library's
holdings on I2... compile, syncretise, toss in a few aquarium examples...!
There are extant good works by the likes of Randy-Holmes Farley et al... but
we could use a reminder, update... I'll help you sell this into the print
mag.s and here on WWM's CA>
Additives are a touchy subject but the debate makes us all the wiser or
perhaps more cautious in how we treat our aquatic charges.
Sincerely,
James Zimmer
<What say you? Bob Fenner>
Re: Iodine drip – 06/14/07
Bob.
<James>
I would be delighted to give this a go. I don't recall whom you had charged
with this task (no small task at that) in the FAQs previously.
<Yes. Never done>
Salt water is an ionic soup and reveals few clues to the naked eye.
<Well put... perhaps the opening line of your next article...>
I imagine the further I dig the more questions I will find myself asking.
<A joy eh?>
I mentioned this endeavor to my boss and he would like to collaborate on
this as well.
<Great!>
We are presently discussing setting up our own test laboratory which would
help us do research at our whim in the near future. It would be nice to
contribute to the hobby and hopefully help some folks out of the confusion
that the shelves full of bottles (advertising claims) can instill at the
stores. This could be a lot of fun too.
<I agree>
I want to keep this project an easy read but I also want to dig into the
chemistry and mine some data for my own peace of mind.
Sincerely,
James Zimmer
<"Make it so"! BobF>
Re: Iodine drip; back from vacation and
beginning work on this endeavor – 7/3/07
Hello Bob.
I have returned and am beginning work on this endeavor. I am discussing the test
regimen and specifications with my boss/associate and we are lining up our test
parameters and tank types. This should be interesting. I am also trying to
define a focus of the article past summary of present literature and (though I
love the chemistry) make this a both a worthy read and one people will actually
read and understand without a degree.
<Good>
Thinking back on passed
<And past?>
experiences: people not wanting to spend money on protein skimmers as opposed to
spending identical money on livestock I have to conclude that exotic, intricate
and or expensive test kits go straight out the window.
<Or more likely, never come in in the first place>
I am digging out my chemistry and biochemistry books and will list all
references. This is fun. Thank you very much for asking me to do this. LOL, this
may end up becoming a research work and a basis for a further science degree.
Sincerely,
James Zimmer
<I look forward to seeing your synthesis. Bob Fenner> Lugol's Solution/Dip 4/7/07 James go
Hi Mark here,
<James with you today, Mark.>
I am trying to disinfect some coral before putting them in QT then on into the
main tank. I did a long search on how to perform a Lugol's dip but couldn't find
anything. I also went out on the web, and mainly only found information on
products with no specific directions, or they were vague as to how to mix and
which corals could be dipped and which not, except zoas and Acro's and monti's.
Im a total newbie at this so please try to be patient and kind
I only have soft corals including shrooms, Kenya Tree, and two photosynthetic
gorg.s.
So I would like to know how to perform a Lugol's dip
1.) How do you mix? How much Lugol's solution to how much water
2.) What corals can be dipped? I am speaking of all softies Kenya Tree, shrooms
and gorg.s.
3.) For how long should the dip be preformed for each coral.
4.) After the dip should I rinse in fresh SW temp, PH matched afterwards or not,
or straight to QT?
5.) Will Lugol's solution also disinfect macroalgae?
<No.>
If there is anything else I am missing in my questions or information which I
need to know please feel free to add it in.
<Mark, I would get this idea out of your head. Lugol's is a very concentrated
solution and is quite easy to overdose. You may be causing more harm than
good. The iodine content in seawater averages around 0.064ppm. As you can see,
a very low concentration. Corals absorb this element and it is known to be
beneficial to them. Higher amounts can have drastic effects to their health.
Do read/learn more about corals and their health before attempting anything like
this. Is much better/safer just to quarantine the corals before adding to your
display tank. Most dealers do not keep their corals with fish, so chances of
any parasitic disease being introduced into the display are low to
non-existent. I have never quarantined a coral, but again, corals that I buy
come from dedicated coral systems.>
Thank you
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Mark
Lugol's Solution/Dip 4/7/07 Bobs go
Hi crew! Mark here, I am trying to disinfect some coral before putting them in
QT then on into the main tank. I did a long search on how to perform a Lugol's
dip but couldn't find anything, I also went out on the web, and mainly only
found information on products with no specific directions, or they were vague as
to how to mix and which corals could be dipped and which not, except zoas and
Acro's and monti's. Im a total newbie at this so please try to be patient and
kind
<Mmm... I would use a "stock solution" of Lugol's... at a strength of two drops
per gallon of dip... lower the specific gravity of the dip water (from your
current main display)... by a couple of thousandths from ambient (likely to
1.023) and move these Octocorals IN water into the dip water... and out five
minutes later... IN water (don't worry re the Iodine move...) to the new digs>
I only have soft corals including shrooms, Kenya tree, and two photosynthetic
gorg.s.
So I would like to know how to perform a Lugol's dip
1.) How do you mix? How much Lugol's solution to how much water
2.) what corals can be dipped I am speaking of all softies Kenya tree, shrooms
and gorg.s.
<All of these>
3.) For how long should the dip be preformed for each coral.
4.) After the dip should I rinse in fresh SW temp, PH matched afterwards or not,
or straight to QT?
<Straight>
5.) Will Lugol's solution also disinfect macroalgae?
<Can, yes>
6.) Can a gorgonian be dipped or not?
<Can>
If there is anything else I am missing in my questions or information which I
need to know please feel free to add it in.
Thank you kindly
Mark
<We've (WWM) gots to get some pieces on Iodine/ide/ate use penned, placed...
including addending the dip/bath files... Bob Fenner>
Re: Lugol's Dip and Gorgonians... Bob... 4/8/07
Dear Mr. Fenner,
<Mark>
An honour that you answered my question about Lugol's solution dips for
Gorgonians and other soft corals. My main reason for the question was as
follows. I know that after a good quarantine that the risk of
transferring parasites is minimal.
<And so much more in the way of benefits>
I would like to know more specifically about bacteria, especially Vibrio and
Myco bacteria, as well as parasites.
<... Please see Ed Noga's "Fish Disease, Diagnosis & Treatment">
I would like to know if the Lugol's dip would have any type of effect on
possible bacterial and or parasitic contamination in an aquarium, and if it
would help to get rid of any residual bacteria such as Vibrio or Myco bacteria
and or parasites which might have been the cause of death to one of the
seahorses in my tank.
<Mmm, not likely "rid"... but perhaps reduce the incidence, virulence of...>
The reason I ask this is at the moment I have a fallow tank that had Hippocampus
Kuda in it, and I would like to transfer and utilize the live rock and corals
which consist of mushrooms a Kenya tree and two gorgonians to a new tank with a
new sand bed. The old tank is fallow at the moment because one of horses passed
away from what appeared to be a tumor (we are not sure a necropsy was not done.
There were no external signs of infection present and she ate and swam up to the
day she died), The one with the tumor died from one day to the next, the tumor
appeared the next day she was dead.
The other kuda had a fatal accident which was my own stupidity, but was never
ill, nor did he develop any of the signs and or symptoms the other kuda
displayed.
I have been told a range of things from do not to use any of the things from the
old tank, to use at my own risk because it is probably full of bacteria and
pathogens,
<Mmmm, these "come and go"... are like "terrorists"... are more made than
borne...>
to it is okay to use if I dip everything in a Lugol's dip. All this in order to
utilize the live rock and corals from the existing tank. I would like your
opinion on this. Should I scrap everything and start new?
<I would very likely re-use...>
Let the tank stand fallow it has been fallow now for 6 weeks, and transfer all
contents except the sand bed to the new tank with a new sand bed. Or should I
Lugol dip everything first, place in quarantine and then place it in the new
tank.
Again it is an honour thank you kindly for your help
Mark
<Again... I would take (with acquired knowledge) a/the long-term view here...
Utilize the existing materials... they are very likely fine. Bob Fenner>
Re: Lugol's Solution/Dip 4/8/07 James...
Thank you James for a very nice, clear and precise answer.
<You're welcome.>
You mention that any chances of a parasitic disease being introduced into the
display are low to non-existent.
<No, being introduced by the addition of corals as mentioned below.>
I am very well aware of quarantining everything before placing it into the
display. I would, however, like to ask another question regarding the transfer
of disease and that would be in the area of bacteria, especially Vibrio or Myco
bacteria.
Is the risk of transferring the same, higher, lower, and or does it fall into a
grey area which is not really clear at all. My intent with the Lugol's dip was
to kill bacteria.
<The amount of Lugol's you would have to add to be effective would more than
likely kill the animal you are trying to rid of bacteria, if any are present at
all.
I think you are going overboard here. If good maintenance practices are carried
out, and your tank is not overstocked, you should not encounter bacterial
problems. Bacterial problems generally develop from poor water quality. My
policy is, do not treat an animal that doesn't need treatment.>
Once again thank you very much in advance for your time and energy, as well as
your insight.
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Regards
Mark
Re: Lugol's Dip and Gorgonians, Pete, will you take a look at, refer? &
bacteria f', human dis. – 4/10/07
<Yowsa Pete! Thanks as usual for this dissertation! BobF>
Dear Mark:
Bob forwarded your email to me and asked me to lend a hand with
your dilemma. It's very difficult to say what may have caused the demise
of your H. kuda but I would be happy to share my thoughts on the matter with
you for whatever it's worth, sir.
Like all fish, seahorses do occasionally develop various granulomas, malignant
neoplasms, tumors and fibrosarcomas associated with certain diseases or the
aging process, but these primarily affect internal organs. Furthermore, such
growths are not characteristic of vibriosis and, judging from the symptoms you
described -- or lack thereof -- it seems unlikely that a Vibrio infection was
involved in this case.
I am more concerned about the possibility that the tumor may have been
a granuloma symptomatic of a Mycobacterial infection. Granuloma disease
is caused by gram positive, acid-fast bacteria from either the genus
Mycobacteria or the closely related genus Nocardia invading the tissue and
internal organs and organ systems. Both of these bacteria can affect the skin as
well as the internal organs, causing nodules and granuloma. And both
Mycobacteria and Nocardia can be transmitted to man, causing a localized,
unsightly skin rash after entering through a cut or break in the skin.
Here is an excerpt from my new book (Complete Guide to the Greater Seahorses in
the Aquarium, TFH Publications, unpublished) that discusses mycobacteriosis in
more detail, Mark. It may help give you a better idea whether or not the tumor
you noticed could have been associated with granuloma disease:
MYCOBACTERIOSIS, A.K.A. PISCINE TUBERCULOSIS
Mycobacteriosis is also known by the following synonyms: fish tuberculosis,
piscine tuberculosis, granuloma disease, swimming pool granuloma, fish
tank granuloma, and acid-fast disease (Aukes, 2004; Leddo, 2002a). Like all
fishes, seahorses are susceptible to Mycobacteriosis. It is not uncommon in
wild-caught seahorses obtained from pet stores and is the second most commonly
seen bacterial infection of syngnathids at large public aquaria after Vibriosis
(Bull and Mitchell, 2002, p20).
Cause:
Fish tuberculosis is caused by pathogenic Mycobacteria, of which
two different species are the primary culprits: Mycobacterium marinum
and Mycobacterium fortuitum (Giwojna, Sep. 2003). Unlike most bacteria the
plague fish, these Mycobacteria are gram-positive, and take the form of
pleomorphic rods that are acid-fast and nonmotile (Aukes, 2004). When cultured
on solid media, they form cream-colored to yellowish colonies (Aukes, 2004).
Mycobacteriosis is worldwide in distribution (Giwojna, Sep. 2003). All
fish species are considered susceptible to it (Aukes, 2004). Although this
disease can in fact infect almost all fish, certain species are more vulnerable
than others (Giwojna, Sep. 2003). The most susceptible species are
freshwater tropicals such as black mollies, all gouramis, Neons and other
tetras, all labyrinth air breathers, and most species of the Carp family
(goldfish and koi, for example), Aukes, 2004.
Mycobacteria are ubiquitous and waterborne, and the aquatic environment is
considered the disease reservoir for fish tuberculosis (Aukes, 2004).
Mycobacterium marinum has been cultured throughout the world from swimming
pools, beaches, natural streams, estuaries, lakes, tropical fish tanks, city
tap water and well water (Aukes, 2004; Leddo, 2002a). Human epidemics of granulomatous
skin disease have occurred from swimming in infected water, and in fact, this
mode of human infection is far more common than infection from exposure to
infected fish tanks (Aukes, 2004; Giwojna, Sep. 2003).
Clinical Signs:
There is a very severe or peracute form of this disease, in which fish can
simply be found dead without showing any telltale signs or symptoms (Bull
and Mitchell, 2002, p20), but that is quite rare. In my experience,
Mycobacteriosis is a chronic disease that progresses quite slowly in aquarium
fishes (Giwojna, Sep. 2003). It may take years for an infected fish to develop
any symptoms of apparent illness and much longer before it becomes fatal (Aukes,
2004).
The glacial progression of the disease makes it difficult to diagnose. Some
early signs to look out for include lethargy, fin loss, emaciation, skin
inflammation and ulceration, edema, Popeye, and peritonitis (Aukes, 2004).
There may be superficial skin lesions that take the form of small subdermal
lumps or pus-filled nodules of granulation tissue (Bull and Mitchell, 2002,
p21).
These are simply the outward manifestations of a systemic infection that may
already involve many of the major internal organs (Bull and Mitchell, 2002,
p21). In later stages, nodules may develop in muscles or skeletal structure and
deform the fish. (Giwojna, Sep. 2003).
As difficult as slow-moving TB may be to diagnose while the infected fish is
alive, once the victim expires, postmortem examination will reveal
clear, unmistakable signs of Mycobacteriosis (Giwojna, Sep. 2003). The
telltale granulomas will appear as gray or white nodules in the liver, kidney,
heart and/or spleen (Aukes, 2004). There is often black, necrotic tissue eating
away at the internal organs, and there may also be skeletal deformities.
Diagnosis is then confirmed by the presence of acid fast bacteria in tissue
sections (Giwojna, Sep. 2003).
Treatment and Control:
There is no practical method for treating mycobacteriosis or
granuloma disease at the hobbyist level. As discussed below, good
aquarium management can prevent Mycobacteria/Nocardia from becoming
problematic. Prevention is the watchword for this condition.
Transmission:
The bacteria can be transmitted through the water from open ulcers,
through contaminated food (including live foods such as shrimp or molly fry),
via feces of infected fish, or through the consumption of infected, dead or
dying fish in the tank (although the latter does not apply to seahorses), Aukes,
2004.
Contributing factors:
This disease is not highly contagious and does not seem to spread from
fish to fish readily (Aukes, 2004). However, fish TB it is often associated
with poorly kept or dirty tanks with poor water quality (Aukes, 2004). Chronic
stress from factors such as overcrowding, malnutrition, or aggressive tankmates
often plays a role as well (Giwojna, Sep. 2003).
Mycobacterium, the causative organism, is believed to be ubiquitously present,
making it very difficult to eliminate it entirely. However, if good aquarium
maintenance and management is followed, including vacuuming of the gravel along
with good filtration and regular water changes, combined with a nutritious diet
and the addition of an enrichment product rich in vitamins, the problem can be
minimized and eliminated as a cause of mortality (Aukes, 2004).
Any dead fish should quickly be removed and disposed of properly. Diseased
live fish should be isolated and treated in a hospital tank (Giwojna, Sep.
2003).
Transmission to Man:
The seahorse keeper should be aware that piscine tuberculosis is one of
the few forms of fish disease that is communicable to humans (Leddo, 2002a).
This transmission usually manifests itself as an unsightly skin rash involving
one or more granulomas on the arms of the fish-keeper (Leddo, 2002a). In severe
cases, these nodules of inflamed tissue can become large and disfiguring.
They can spread and be very difficult to eliminate. The granulomas often take
some 2-4 weeks after exposure before manifesting themselves, so the individual
is frequently unaware of how he or she contracted them and the condition very
often goes undiagnosed (Giwojna, Sep. 2003). The Mycobacteria that cause the
disease typically gain entry through a break in the skin such as a cut, scrape,
or abrasion on the hand or arm of the aquarist (Leddo, 2002a). Although
unsightly, the granulomas themselves are not a serious problem and are almost
always localized and most certainly curable in healthy individuals. But for
those of us whose immune systems are compromised by AIDS, kidney disease,
diabetes, liver dysfunction, chemotherapy or the like, the infection can
sometimes become systemic or, on rare occasions, even life threatening
(Giwojna, Sep. 2003).
Awareness is the appropriate response to the risk posed by fish tuberculosis.
The seahorse keeper should be aware of the remote possibility of being exposed
to Mycobacteria via his aquarium, and take appropriate precautions, but there
is certainly no need to be overly concerned (Giwojna, Sep. 2003).
The aquarist should merely remain aware of Mycobacteria and follow the usual
sensible precautions. Nets, aquarium accessories and equipment, and any other
items that may come in contact with the fish should be sterilized between uses
to prevent cross-contamination (Giwojna, Sep. 2003). Avoid mouth-siphoning of
the water in a Myco-positive tank (use a hand pump instead).
Mycobacterium cannot penetrate intact skin -- it only causes infection
after entering through open wounds or source, so make full use of aquarium
gloves and don't place your hands or arms in the aquarium if you have any cuts
or scrapes (Giwojna, Sep. 2003). Handle sick fish carefully, dispose of deceased
specimens properly, and scrub up afterwards. Do NOT dispose of dead fish by
flushing them down the toilet, as this is a prime way to spread disease. Place
the fish carcass in a plastic bag or wrap it in some foil and dispose of it with
the solid waste of the household. And don't feed dying fish to larger
carnivorous fish, since this an excellent way to spread infection (Giwojna, Sep.
2003).
One thing hobbyists who are worried about fish TB can do to allay their concerns
is to get their seahorses and live foods (crustaceans such as shrimp are known
vectors for Mycobacteriosis) from a High Health facility such as Ocean Rider
rather than from their local fish store (Giwojna, Sep. 2003). Seahorses at OR
are routinely screened for pathogens and parasites by independent
examiners from an outside agency (DVMs with the Department of Agriculture), and
I know for a fact that Mycobacteriosis is one of the diseases they specifically
check for (Giwojna, Sep. 2003). Thus far, multi-organ histopathology has found
no granulomas and tissue sections have revealed no acid-fast bacteria --
conclusive proof that Ocean Riders are free of Mycobacteria. <Close quote>
That's the rundown on mycobacteriosis or granuloma disease, Mark.
The very similar Nocardia is a gram positive, acid-fast, filamentous bacteria
and is even more insidious than Myco. Nocardia is closely related to the
Mycobacteria that cause piscine TB or granuloma disease and, like Mycobacteria,
it can affect the skin as well as the internal organs, causing nodules,
granulomas and pyogranulatomous cysts. And like Mycobacteria, Nocardia can be
transmitted to man, so be sure to take appropriate precautions if you suspect
granuloma disease may have caused the death of your H. kuda.
Here is some information from Paul Anderson explaining how
professional aquarists typically deal with Mycobacterium/Nocardia:
Fellow Seahorse Enthusiasts:
Mycobacterium is a genus of bacteria that are ubiquitous in almost
all environments. Mycobacterium infections occur in many (if not all)
vertebrate taxa (e.g., mammals, birds, fish, etc.). Some studies that have
looked at prevalence of infection of Mycobacterium in wild animals have often
found that a small percentage of wild animals are infected, even without
clinical signs.
The most common Mycobacterium species found in seahorses are M. marinum, M. chelonae,
and M. fortuitum. There is currently no cure for mycobacterium infections in
fish. The options available are to 1) depopulate and disinfect the system, or 2)
maintain the fish but prevent cross-contamination by observing strict
biosecurity protocols. The second option is often chosen by public aquaria with
long-standing displays, when aquaculture/production of the infected fish is not
an issue.
Many mycobacterium spp. can cause disease in humans, especially if the species
is a rapidly growing one and/or if the person is immunocompromised. Of the
three species mentioned above, M. marinum is a slow grower, and grows at
25 degrees Celsius incubation, but not at 37 degrees Celsius. The other two
are rapid-growing species and grow at both temperatures of incubation.
The significance of 37 degrees is that it is human body temperature. While
most infections of otherwise healthy people are limited to lesions on the
extremities (even with infection by a rapid-grower), there is a greater risk of
the rapid-growers to cause systemic disease (especially in immunocompromised people).
In a Myco-positive tank, the best option is not to come in contact with water or
fish; wear gloves (sleeved gloves if necessary). Avoid mouth siphoning (use a
hand pump). Having said that, in an aquarium situation mycobacterium
only causes infection if it enters a wound; it cannot penetrate intact skin.
Effective disinfectants against mycobacterium include spraying with 70%
Ethanol and allowing the equipment to air-dry, and bleach baths (I use 50ppm
bleach baths with a minimum contact time of one hour, this has been reported to
be effective against M. marinum) followed by sodium thiosulfate
neutralization baths. Ultraviolet light sterilization is also recommended in
Myco-positive systems. If you've got Myco-positive tanks among other systems,
common sense suggests performing husbandry on these systems last in your rounds.
A note on ethanol: I have found in my experience that seahorses are
very sensitive to ethanol, so I advise being very cautious to avoid overspray
into tanks (while we're€™re on the topic, has anybody else observed this?)
Check out the following for more information about mycobacterium infections in
fish/aquaria:
<_http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/VM055_
(http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/VM055) >
<_http://www.mdsg.umd.edu/Extension/finfish/FF9.html_
(http://www.mdsg.umd.edu/Extension/finfish/FF9.html)
>
Mainous, M.E., and S.A. Smith. 2005. Efficacy of common disinfectants against
Mycobacterium marinum. Journal of Aquatic Animal Health 17: 284-288.
Paul Anderson
Ph.D. Candidate
Department of Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences
University of Florida
That's the situation when Mycobacteria is confirmed in an aquarium, Mark.
As long as you observe the proper precautions and practice good aquarium
management, it's a problem the aquarist can sometimes live with...
Nocardia is a different matter. When Nocardia is confirmed in an aquarium, the
only real recourse is to break down the entire aquarium, discard the live rock,
substrate, and invertebrates, sterilize everything, and start over from
scratch. The problem is that Nocardia is saprophytic -- it doesn't require a
host to survive and it will persist in your system indefinitely. These bacteria
live off any kind of dead or decaying organic matter; in nature they are
commonly found in soil and wastewater -- in your tank, Mark, they are no doubt
entrenched in your substrate, live rock, filters, everything -- where they act
as a disease reservoir, ready to infect any new fish and invertebrates (or
careless humans) they encounter when the opportunity presents itself.
The risk of cross-contamination of your other tanks and specimens is
great, compounded by the fact that human health (primarily yours, Mark) is also
at risk from this organism. If your H. kuda was infected with Nocardia,
then everything in your 25-gallon aquarium has been exposed to these bacteria
and is potentially a source of infection. Leading the tank lay fallow
indefinitely will not help with Nocardia whatsoever. If Nocardia killed your
kuda, you must consider all the equipment, decor and specimens in the tank to be
contaminated, Mark -- treat them like you would toxic waste or any other
biohazard.
Even your invertebrates are a risk. Your coral, macroalgae, etc,. are all
sources of organic matter, and can therefore harbor Nocardia and carry the
infection.
Do NOT disperse your live rock, substratum, Gorgonia and soft
corals, macroalgae, equipment or accessories from the 25-gallon tank to your
other aquaria, Mark, or you will be inoculating them with Nocardia and spreading
the infection to all your tanks! And you must be extremely careful to
avoid accidentally cross-contaminating your other tanks from your 25 gallon
aquarium. Any nets, hydrometers, or other equipment used in your 25-gallon
aquarium should be sterilized after every use and not placed into or used in
any other tanks.
Avoid working in infected aquarium with your bare hands, scrub/disinfect
your hands and arms thoroughly after working on the tank, and do not place your
hands in the 25-gallon tank and then place your hands in another aquarium.
These bacteria can even be transferred from one aquarium to another by splashing
water droplets or as an aerosol via the mist generated from a protein skimmer
or an airstone. Be careful!
That is what I typically advise hobbyists when Nocardia has been confirmed in
their aquaria, Mark. I hesitate to recommend such drastic measures when Nocardia
or Mycobacterium have not been confirmed. And the tumor that you described is
not typical of the pyogranulatomous cysts that characterize Nocardia. They most
often present as greyish-white pimple like lesions on the skin.
They are often motile when manipulated and may release a cheesy exudate when
compressed. That does not sound like the hard mass you detected beneath the
skin near the vent of the H. kuda.
So you're going to need to use your own judgment, Mark. To be 100% safe, you
could discard the contents of your 25-gallon aquarium, sterilize everything, and
start over from scratch. Or you could dip the live rock, Gorgonia, and corals
with Lugol's solution as a precaution and then trust to good aquarium
management to keep the seahorses in your 40-gallon aquarium healthy and
happy. Since Mycobacteria and Vibrio bacteria are virtually ubiquitous, and
normally only become problematic when the seahorses have been stressed and
their immune systems have been impaired, I might be inclined to take the latter
course in your case. If you can provide your seahorses with optimal water
quality, a nutritious diet, and they stress-free environment, the chances are
good that your livestock will not be affected by granuloma disease or
vibriosis.
Starting out with seahorses from a high-health aquaculture facility that you
obtain directly from the breeder will further increase your chances for
success. As an added precaution, you may also want to consider installing an
ultraviolet sterilizer on your 40-gallon seahorse tank after it has cycled
completely and the biofiltration is well-established.
Best of luck with your new seahorse tank no matter how you decide to proceed,
Mark!
Respectfully,
Pete Giwojna, Ocean Rider Tech-Support
Re: Lugol's Dip and Gorgonians, Pete, will you take a look at, refer? –
4/10/07
Dear Bob:
<Pete!>
I'm always happy to help when I can, sir.
<And you do a fine job of it, I assure you>
When I receive inquiries from aquarists regarding Mycobacteria/Nocardia, I feel
it is very important to provide them with as much information as
possible because of the possibility of human transmission and because they may
be confronted with the decision as to whether or not it's necessary to
depopulate their aquarium, sterilize everything, and start over from
scratch. So I make it a point to try to arm them with all the facts they need
to make an informed decision in that regard.
<Yes... and one of the principal reasons for my encouraging the publication of
your book, your articles (as well as others... including my own!) to get
"complete answers" to folks... in a speedily manner>
Hopefully, once we get my new book on seahorses published and into the hands of
the hobbyists, there won't be a need for us to devote so much time discussing
these issues on the forums.
<Heeeeee! You'll see...>
Happy Trails!
Pete Giwojna
<And to you, Bob Fenner, out in HI, at times visiting with Carol and Craig and
their (now four year old!!!) boys, Dylan and Cooper>
Re: Lugol's Dip and Gorgonians – 04/11/07
Dear Mr. Fenner,
<Just Bob, please>
I would like to personally thank you for all your help and the wealth of
information which you were able to provide to me. It was very kind and
thoughtful of you.
<Velkom>
I have three last questions and I hope this will be the last time I need to
consume so much of your valuable time.
I take it by stock Lugol's you mean anything off of the shelf made by any of the
well known companies like Kent etc. Correct? Do you happen to have a brand that
you prefer?
<No... all Lugol's are the same>
Dosage is 2 drops per gallon of pH, temperature matched water. Total dip time
for all things be it live rock, Kenya tree, shrooms, and gorg.s is 5 min.
Correct?
<As previous...>
My last big question is, is it possible to dip invertebrates such as Nassarius
snails, Cerith snails, Nerite snails and scarlet legged hermit crabs? If so for
how long?
<W/o the lowered spg the same>
If you were to dip macro algae how long would you dip that for?
<Not at all>
Once again thank you for your time and patience, and pardon the redundancy on my
part, it is not with mal-intent, however, more out of wanting to do things right
the first time around, and secondly not being totally familiar with this system.
Highest regards
Mark
<B>
HLLE Iodine Dosing Question...
Hello Bob,
I hope I may be able to ask you a question?
<Sure... you just did>
I have a Blue Tang that I believe is developing HLLE. I was reading your FAQ's
and noted that it is recommended to soak the food intended for the fish in an
Iodine supplement.
<Mmm, actually... better to use an overall vitamin/appetite stimulant complex...
Iodine is only part of a possible treatment scenario... and makes foods rather
unpalatable... try it... You won't like it>
I purchased "Kent Marine Concentrated Iodine" shown in this link:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4820&Ntt=iodine&Ntk=All&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Np=1&pc=1&N=2004&Nty=1
It doesn't state anywhere on the bottle what the recommended dosage should
be if used as a food supplement. Is this a good Iodine supplement or would you
recommend something else? What dosage would you recommend if I would be soaking
the fish food in it over-night (drops per cube of frozen)? Thank you for your
assistance in this matter.
Robert Miele
<You could try a drop... but I would look to other means... Have you read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/hllefaqs.htm
and the linked FAQs files above? Bob Fenner>
Iodide 12/8/06
Hello wet web,
I read on your site that iodide is depleted very quickly in reef tanks.
<Typically, yes... or more accurately, this valence state, others of the Halogen
element Iodine, are readily converted to non-useful compounds in these settings>
I have a 80 gal reef, Boyd ChemiPure carbon and AquaC 120 skimmer.
<Proper nouns are capitalized...>
I'm getting zero reading with my SeaChem test kit.
<For... Iodine/ide?>
Should I keep adding it until I see it get to .06?
<Mmm, no, I would not...>
My clam seems to be getting a little flimsy around the edges of the mantle. Can
this be due to the absence of iodide? thanks for the help
Mike
<A bit more reading is advised...
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/iodfaqs.htm, elsewhere...
I would supplement some format of this essential nutrient weekly... with water
changes/testing, and/or with purposeful feeding of target organisms. Bob Fenner>
Iodine supplements vs.. B-ionic 11/22/06
Dear WWM crew,
<Hi>
Learning more and more by reading and asking, so here goes with a dumb
question. <No dumb questions.>
I'm skeptical about something I was told by a supposed 'expert' in reef
maintenance, etc. <Skepticism will take you far in this hobby.>
He suggested the use of only a 2-part buffer, such as B-ionic, etc., and stated
that the addition of iodine would not be necessary. I have been adding iodine in
my system with automatic dosing pumps, and checking with a test kit. <Good with
the testing.>
It is within the range! So, basically, if I were to discontinue the iodine, does
a 2-part buffer system introduce enough iodine to
sustain those iodine craving animals. I might add, and maybe I'm wrong, that I
utilize my leather corals as a kind of barometer. If they have full polyp
extension, then they must be happy. <The canaries.>
My concern is that over doing it with iodine could cause nuisance algae blooms?
No? <Could contribute to it.> Again, thanks for your time. Keep up the good
work.
George
<As far as I know Iodine is not an ingredient in any of the name brand B-Ionic
solutions, although the exact formulas are often considered corporate
secrets. But as long as you are testing and getting the appropriate levels I
would keep doing what you are doing.>
<Chris>
Iodine help 11/5/06
Crew,
I have a 60 gallon DAS tank with 80 pounds live rock, 110 pounds live sand, 1
small pulsing xenia, 1 branch hammer coral, 4 blue/green Chromis, 1 Red Fromia
star and of course my cleanup crew. Who all benefits from Iodine?
<Is an essential "micro" nutrient for all listed... and yourself!>
How
much should I be adding regularly?
<Possibly... again as with your own health... through water changes, foods...
possibly supplementation directly... with testing if so>
Is this something that can be toxic if too much is added?
<Yes>
Is there a safe amount I can add without testing or is testing mandatory for
Iodine?
<Mmm... well, dilute amounts can be added blindly w/ not much concern...>
We have been adding 8 drops daily for the xenia is this sufficient?
Thanks,
Doshia Brown
<Please search WWM re... there are general stmt.s made/recorded re
iodine/ide/ate use, Xeniids... I would not add such daily... would encourage
this sort of "blind" adjunctive use with water change periodicity. Bob Fenner>
Best time to add calcium 10/2/06
Crew,
<Mark>
I have a 60 gallon DAS tank with 65 pounds live rock and 110 pounds live sand.
We also have a hammer coral and a xenia. When is the best time to add my
calcium, iodine and strontium? Right now we add these in the morning but my wife
would like to not have the cloudiness from the calcium so I am curious if there
are any ill effects if I added these at night after the lights go out? Also we
currently use Purple up liquid calcium. I add 7 ml a day.
<Calcium is best added when the tanks pH is at its lowest. This is usually hours
after the lights have been off and can be determined with a quick ph test or
monitor. I suggest using a two part liquid calcium system as these will give you
easy control over your calcium and alkalinity.>
What are your suggestions?
<Concerning dosing iodine and strontium you need only add these when testing
dictates. You may be holding at acceptable levels with regular water changes,
and might actually do harm/waste money by dosing without testing. Please test
for anything you add to your tank. Testing may not be the most fun aspect of our
hobby (for most people), but it can save your tank as well as you wallet.>
Thanks,
<You're welcome, wish you the best! Emerson>
Mark
Ozone Usage/Amounts...Iodine Supplementation - 08/30/06
Dear Bob,
<<EricR here>>
I have a 180g FOWLR. 1 large Emp angel, 1 large majestic, 1 Foxface, 1
Heniochus butterfly, 4 skunk cleaner shrimp. 2 perculas, 1 macaroon, 1 blue
damsel, 1 goby, hermits and snails. The system has been up for 1 year and doing
fabulous. I have 2 wet-dries and use bioballs for media. 2 sump located
skimmers AquaC EV-180 and Euroreef RS 130,
<<Good skimmers...some authors recommend using multiple skimmers of differing
design to optimize the efficiencies re>>
One UV 55-watt Aqua UV. 10% water change weekly. I have started using ozone
injected thru the JG fitting of the AquaC and the results are visible: crystal
clear water.
<<Indeed! I find ozone to be more efficient than carbon is this respect>>
I note that AquaC recommends 50-100 mg/hr of ozone but not more since skimmate
production deceases with higher amounts.
<<Mmm, yes...and I have read some debate on whether this is desirable or
not. Some speculate breaking down the organic molecules with ozone makes the
skimmer less efficient...some speculate breaking down the molecules make the
organics more readily available to assimilation by the corals...some say "what
the heck", the skimmer is still as "efficient" as it ever was (just has less to
skim), the corals "may" be finding more food (just be aware nuisance alga too
will have more fuel), so if nothing is being malaffected what is the concern? I
tend to fall in to the latter category
I have a Red Sea 200mg/hr ozonizer with integrated controller. Tank ORP is
315-320mV during the day and rises to 340mV just before the lights go on in the
AM.
<<Sounds about "ideal" to me>>
I have been using 175 mg/hr of ozone in this tank. At this level the amount of
skimmate has gone down from both skimmers.
<<I have experienced this phenomenon as well>>
The ECV-180 has 275 gal/hr flow rate and the Euroreef system has 180 gal/hr
rate.
Would you recommend that I go to AquaC's recommended 50 mg/hr?
<<Based on your ORP readings and the fact you don't mention any deleterious
happenings re, no, I would not drop the production rate that low>>
Is it absolutely necessary that the skimmer effluent be carbon filtered?
<<No...the amount/concentration of ozone produced by these hobbyists units is
easily burned-up in/blown-off by the skimmer>>
Would using higher doses of ozone oxidize Iodine or other elements to the point
of detriment where HLLE may be a concern?
<<Addition of Iodine with water changes is recommended...else test/dose as
needed>>
Thanks, Have a nice day.
<<Same to you my friend>>
Jimmy
<<Regards, EricR>>
Iodine/ide/ate... James' article 7/10/06
Bob,
Sent out feelers to people in the know on this subject along with my
searching. Not a whole lot of info gathered by me. Seems to be much, much more
info on iodine for medicinal purposes than any other. Didn't give up on it
yet...
Regards,
James
<I'm countin' on ya. BobF>
IODIDE VERSUS IODINE 6/18/06
Hello Mr. Fenner,
<James today.>
I am pretty confused with so much information about iodide and iodine, that I do
not know if I should add it to my reef tank or not. First, I would like to know
the difference between the two of them and which one should I use as I have some
mushrooms in my tank and would like to have a xenia in the near future.
I appreciate your help.
<Both can be used. Iodide is a compound of iodine with a more electropositive
element. Lugo's solution (iodine) is what most reefers are using. As far as
differences between the two, other than what I have said...don't know. Bob may
inject something here, he is well educated in the chemistry field.
James (Salty Dog)> <<... James, I ask you to write "an article" on the use of
this element, its valence states... This will be instructive and "very time
consuming..." RMF>>
Val Valenca.
Re: IODIDE VERSUS IODINE 6/19/06
Bob,
<Salty>
Will do more research on iodine and will do, but as of now, I'm waiting on Zo to
send me the opened PDF files on my lighting article so I can finish that.
Thank you for asking.
Regards,
James
<We'll see... RMF>
Re: IODIDE VERSUS IODINE 6/19/06
Bob,
<James>
Whoa... I'm looking at valence as the combining capacity of an atom determined
by the number of electrons that it will lose/add/or share when it reacts with
other
atoms. I'm thinking by this, you mean how this benefits invertebrates that have
a need for iodine, react with this element present....?
<Among other things, yes. I think you and we would all benefit from your
investigating, reporting on various aspects of aquarium chemistry. Including
necessary elements, their sources, importance, measure, toxicity...>
As far as chemistry goes, I'm on the tenth floor, but can/will research
information as to the needs/reactions of inverts that benefit from an iodine
supplement.
Regards,
James
<Yes... get writing my friend. Bob Fenner>
Iodine and crabs 6/3/06
Thanks, how do I dose with iodine, in water or feed, dose rate, what does
iodine actually do?
<Iodine assists in the molting process, it is added to the water. Dosing rates
vary based on the brand, so follow the directions on the bottle. It is
available through most LFS or on-line.>
Regards
Angus C.
<Chris>
-Locked out- - 04/10/2006
Hello WWM,
<Steve>
I've a porcupine fish that is showing signs of lockjaw, and I'd like to start
treating with iodine. Is there any brand treatment you'd recommend? The LFS
carries Lugol's Solution, but I wasn't sure if that would work.
<Should be ok, but any pure iodine solution is fine. Also mixed iodine and reef
supplements are good to dose the tank with to maintain iodine levels constantly
to avoid future issues. Kent's essential elements is a good one.>
Thanks,
Steve
<Justin (Jager)>
Lugol's Solution 1/30/06
wow bob it was so nice to meet you and talk to you here in Irving
TX today. I really enjoyed your lecture. ok can you give me
the name of that iodine again, you said 10 drops in a 75 gallon tank,
this will not harm corals or fish is
that correct.
<Correct, and name above>
am the one that was telling you about my rose bubble tip anemones not being big like they use to be. you also said they were in
competition with
all my leather corals correct. wow what a day it was to hear all you
speakers
speak. ill have to do some research and find some of your books. thanks
again
for an unforgettable day ill remember this for along time.
Mickey white
<Pleased to meet you again Mickey! Bob Fenner> |
Here is a pic of these RBTA 1/30/06
well what do you think. they have turned a pink color and been right
their for several months, they don't get big like they use to, will try the
iodine you suggested. thanks
<Mmm, let's re-state... the Iodine/ide will help, as would using
activated carbon (once a month pouch, leaving in for two months), and
improving the lighting (the MH you mentioned, switching out the two
white PCs)... the Sarcophyton/Leather is really too much here... and you
would do well to "frag" it... or cut it in half, give half away. Cheers,
Bob Fenner>
Mickey white |
|
Do appear dyed eh? Color loss from simple dilution/division? |
Re: Lugol's Use
ok ill get some Lugol's solution this week,10 drops for a 75 gallon tank, should
I do this ever so often or just one time only. thanks bob
Mickey white
<Best to use in concert with your water change activity... every week or
two when you change water. Same dosage. If you want to use more
frequently, you need to get/use a test kit for iodine. Please read over
this area:
http://wetwebmedia.com/iodfaqs.htm
Bob Fenner> |
FORM - 01/24/06
Hello,
I am using the Mark Weiss product called FORM.
<Another copy cat Miracle Mud...>
Apparently this adds iodine, strontium and magnesium.
<...>
Is there no need to add these products singularly, or should I be doing both? I
was using Kent
iodine etc. but in South Africa, we are paying 4 x the price you pay in the US.
<Look into Lugol's instead... can be bought from the pharmacist for a fraction>
As I have a big tank I am hoping the FORM does replace them.
<Not IMO>
Also, I have just bought a big leather coral. When I took it out the bag it had
a terrible smell. A day later it smells ok, like the
sea. He has all his tentacles out and looks fine, but he does have a couple of
yellow patches on him. Does he sound ok to you?
<Maybe>
Bob's booked just arrived in the post. woohoo!
<Am sure you will enjoy, gain by its reading>
Kind Regards,
James Barclay
<And to you. Bob Fenner, who would skip the FORM, all of Weiss' line>
Iodine and Additives 01/18/06
Hi Bob,
<<Hello Linda. Ted on this end>>
Wow I couldn't believe how fast you got back to me about my question re:
compatibility of different types of cleaner shrimps - thank you very much!!
I have a different question the aquarium stores [2 salt water ones in my
area] have not been able to answer for me to my satisfaction. The question is
about additives. I have a 40 gallon reef tank, with about 12 small corals, a
couple of crabs, 2 shrimp, 2 star fish, snails, a sea urchin, a cucumber & 2
small fish. I clean my tank about every 2 1/2 to 3 weeks [about 10 to 12
gallons change], use Instant Ocean reef crystal salt & distilled water. I add a
teaspoon of calcium as directed every day. Recently, I have been adding 8 mil.
[as directed] per day of an additive called "Reef Solution" by EcoSystems that
is supposed to have multiple minerals & minor trace elements found in natural
sea water so that you don't have to add any other additives.
In the past, BEFORE I used this product, I had been using the Kent products
- calcium daily [I still do] + a teaspoon of Iodine weekly + a teaspoon of
strontium/molybdenum 2x a week. The reason I switched products is because of
the distilled water - I was concerned my tank lacked iron, etc. as found in
normal water & I am afraid to use tap water as it caused my tank to crash with
my very first water change.
<<Why not use RO/DI water instead of distilled?>>
I am now concerned about Iodine for my shrimp & crabs. I read you have to
be careful how much to add because it may cause premature molting, but yet there
is no test I can find to test the iodine levels - not even at the aquarium
stores! What would you recommend for additives? Do you know of any test kits
I can buy & what are the optimal levels that will make everybody in the tank
happy?
<<I don't recommend the extensive use of additives. Instead, I recommend
frequent water changes. High quality salts (like Instant Ocean, Tropic Marin and
others) contain the appropriate levels of iodine and other elements. Small,
frequent, water changes using a good salt mix will provide the appropriate
levels and make everyone happy. If you supplement calcium, do measure the
calcium levels in your system and dose accordingly. As far as test kits, I
personally like Salifert and SeaChem brands.>>
Thank you for your time,
Linda Campbell, beginner coral tank enthusiast
<<You're welcome - Ted>>
Iodine? - 01/12/2006
James, It seems that in the greater Las Vegas area, no one carries
Selcon
(hard to believe),<Yes it is> however found someone who gave us a website to
mail-order
it. Should we be using the iodine as well? <I think it helps. Normally
used with inverts, crabs, shrimp, to help in the molting process. Most
corals do benefit from its use also. will try to get him to continue eating
ghost shrimp until the Selcon arrives ( approx 4-7 days) , please
advise about the Iodine. <If you have a canister filter or are using a sump,
the use of Chemi-Pure will definitely aid in your water quality. (To
clarify, Chemi-Pure has to be placed somewhere where water can flow through
it.) I swear by it, use it on a regular basis.>Thank you <You're
welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Iodine depletion in my system 12/22/05
Thanks in advance. I have a 12 gal setup w/a fuge in the smallish sump. I'm
running the lighting for the fuge opposite of the display lighting. I have a
baseball sized clump of Gracilaria for the fuge. I have a great growth of
coralline in the display which is encrusting everything. My question is does red
macro use a lot of iodine? <No> In this 12gal tank there is only actually 7 gal
of SW after LR and LS displacement. I do a 21 oz wc daily except on sat and sun.
The question stems from getting loads of different advice and when told I did
the daily wc's the majority opinion was not to supplement w/ the Kent's iodine.
I had been before and my skunk molted on several occasions w/out a hitch. I
introduced a peppermint and stopped the supplementing of iodine. 6 days later
when he attempted to molt, he was DOA. I've read that w/the Kent's or SeaChem's
potassium iodine is so diluted that it shouldn't hurt the system. Can someone
give me a definitive answer. <I believe it is better to dose than not. I use
the Sea Chem product myself on a weekly basis. The iodide/iodine definitely
helps with the molting process. I'll paste a email I received from SeaChem a
while back regarding this.>
"Our Iodide is stabilized as Iodide and therefore it is less harmful
than Lugol's. However we do still recommend to use a test kit when
dosing a Iodide supplement (any supplement to be exact). If a person
does not want to test iodide they can still get some through the use
of Reef Plus twice a week. This dosage is minimal and even with few
to no iodide absorbing animals the iodide level stays low."
Best Regards,
Seachem Tech Support~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thanks, Mike. <You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Epaulette shark with goiter
I purchased a female epaulette shark yesterday that has been captive raised from a pup. It is now about 24 inches. I currently have a 34" male and am
hoping to breed them. I have a 1500 gallon shark pond that is 10'x10'x3'. The female I just purchased appears to have goiter. It is eating well, and I
feed with Mazuri shark and ray vitamins. Will being fed a proper diet with the vitamins correct the problem or is there something else I can do. Also
can sharks absorb Iodine from the water or is it only through food?
<Not much from the water (but some), but I would definitely be administering iodine/ate through the animal's foods>
I currently dose the tank with Kent's Lugol's solution and am wondering if this will help at all. Thanks
<I would look to dosages encapsulated, the capsules placed inside hand-fed food items here... and quickly. Bob Fenner>
Re: Epaulette shark with goiter
Do you have any idea where I can purchase Iodine supplement capsules? The Mazuri
shark and ray tabs don't have iodine listed as an ingredient.
<Mmm, yes... at GNC or similar food stores... or you can buy the empty capsules from such places and make your own. Bob Fenner>
Iodine and molting
Hi,
I have a question about Iodine. I read in the Reef Central that there is no scientific proof that Iodine is necessary for molting and that it could be Iodine is irritating the shell of
the shrimps and crabs so they molt more often. Is there any scientific proof that Iodine is even being used in molting process? I think by adding Iodine all I'm really doing is helping nuisance algae to grow.
<Hans, I really don't know if there is scientific proof. But I do know that iodine is present in shrimp. My wife for one cannot eat them unless they are
deep-fried. Her doctor told her that the iodine content in steamed shrimp causes her to break out in hives. Also, when I first started using iodine, whether coincidence or not, both my arrow crab and cleaner shrimp molted the same night. Too much iodine can be detrimental. You really need a test kit to determine how much is being absorbed. Recommended levels are 0.06 to 0.08mg/L. James (Salty Dog)>
Iodide verses Iodine
Hi there,
Wanted to know if Iodide is as good as Iodine? Should I use one over
the other, both or just one or the other?
Thanks in advance for your advice.
<Mmm, I "swear" this is NOT advice... but the beginning of what could become an
all-consuming conversation/debate... Do study up re the element Iodine please...
and it's practical use in aquarium husbandry... "it" comes in three valence
states, is photically and otherwise quite unstable... and hence, solutions of it
are presented in mixed formats... for instance, Lugol's. Ingredients: Iodine 5%
(I2) Potassium Iodide (KI) 10% and Purified Water... I am a bigger fan of Iodide
use... but stock solutions, such as Lugol's are fine. Once again, use only with
testing (kits) IMO, or vastly under treat... once per week, twice per week...
maybe only with water changes... and be aware of the transient nature of this
essential micronutrient. There, have said very little and way too much. Bob
Fenner>
Iodine causing Xenia problems?
Hey Crew,
I had a problem with my red soft corals losing some of their color. My LFS sold
me Lugol's iodine and I starting with very small amounts increasing to one drop
a day four times a week (90 gallon tank). But now my once thriving pulsing Xenia
are not looking so good. << Really? They usually do better with Iodine. I
would do a water change and stop adding Lugol's for a while. >> It looks like
some one let the air out of them. I stopped using the Lugol's and they are
starting to look a little better. Do you think this was the problem. I thought
Xenia love Iodine? << Yes, but maybe you have over-dosed the tank. It is toxic
at high enough levels. >> or should I be using a different produce maybe one
that has Iodide? << No, don't try more chemicals. >>
Also I had a problem with my skimmer. After reading your site for two hours I
stumbled onto someone with a similar problem as myself. I have an over flow box
with a few return jets up high for surface current. After bringing those down a
bit my skimmer seems to be working more efficiently. Do you think this is the
right move? << Hey if it is working better, then I guess so. >> Every time I see
someone else's tank they seem to have a lot of surface current.
Thanks again for all the free advise. If you ever decided to charge for this
site. I would be the first on line.
<< Blundell >>
Re: Chronic Fish Death
Well I've arranged to buy a 10 gallon to use as a quarantine from now on
we'll separate new and sick fish. I've decided it's well worth it. So
thanks for setting me straight on that.
As for iodine... Is there still iodine in water if we buy RO water? Is
there any way to test for toxic levels of iodine so that we may rule in
or out that theory?
Sorry to pester you with so many follow-up questions. It's only because
I find your information very helpful.
Lindsay
>>>Hey Lindsay,
It's no trouble!
You should be doing water changes once a month or so, and enough iodine should
be present in the water. I can't remember off the top of my head if there are
iodine test kits or not quite frankly. <There are. RMF>
For the moment, do your water changes as I said, and you shouldn't have to worry
about it. If you do decide to begin adding iodine again, once a month would be
plenty.
Cheers
Jim<<<
Re: Chronic Fish Death
Is there any way to quarantine a fish without setting up a second complete
system?
Don't the cleaner shrimp need the iodine to be able to molt?
Thanks for your help! To make matters worse we have to move the system next
week. The good thing is it will force that 50% water change.
Lindsay
>>>Hey Lindsay,
The whole point of quarantine is to keep the fish separate from your display
system. If you don't set up another system, there is no quarantine happening.
Certain critters need iodine. How much is the question, and if you overdose it,
it does more harm than good. There is normally enough in the water without
adding it via supplements. I don't add it, and my crustaceans molt just fine.
Jim<<<
Iodine/Iodide
Some say neither of these are needed. I have mostly soft corals, some LPS,
and plan on adding some moderate light SPS. My xenia seem to close and stop
pulsating when I stop using it or reduce the amounts. <I have to say that my
xenia seems to need it as well.> My bubble coral doesn't look as good without it
either. I use to use Kent's Lugol's Iodine but was told it was safer to switch
to Iodide as you can't overdose with Iodide. <you need to test if you use either
Iodide or Iodine.> I still have both but just felt safer with Iodide. Right now
I am dosing 1ml for each 20 gallons once per week. Is this enough? <Personally I
do it every TWO weeks but that's what works for my tank. And I test it to keep
the levels in balance. Please invest in a test kit.> Too much? What is your
opinion? <Good luck, MacL>
Iodine Questions?
Adam,
<< The other Adam here, Blundell that is. >>
I was reading through the Iodine FAQ, (just out of curiosity) and found a
post from 3/22/04 regarding the difference between Iodide and Iodine. As I
understand your response, Iodide is usually potassium Iodide KI, which
dissociates into K+ and I- ions in aq. solution. where I- combines with Oxy
to form IO3 (as you have stated), but 1/3 of the I2 combines with DOCs (or
you stated simply Organics) which will then not be measurable via test
kit.... now to my question... What causes the I- to from IO3 rather than
becoming diatomic I2, and then combining with the Organics??? And for a
purely chemistry question, why is I2 more Oxidizing than the IO3 (maybe I
should consult a periodic table with Ionization potentials) Or the CRC
handbook...... Which leads me to think, If I2 combines with the Organics
(which I am presuming to be DOCs in the water column) will this new molecule
be extracted by the Skimmer??? IE filtering out your recently dosed Iodine,
or does it 'precipitate" (or otherwise remain for consumption via inverts or
Algae) to metabolize the Iodine????? I do not dose KI/I2 because I am
uncertain what is proper, but I have heard that the usefulness of KI/I2 is
only that which is present within the invert (presuming it is somehow
metabolized) allowing them to molt etc, and external KI/I2 is poisonous to
the organisms (from the anti-bacterial props)....
Thank you for your help. Partly I was thinking on paper, and pardon my
spelling, because the corrections usually cause me to break my train of
thought..... (tried to correct afterwards)
Ben
<< Here is a submission from a friend of mine, who is much better than I at
oxidation states. Hope it helps...
I- (-1 oxidation state) -> I2 (0) -> IO3- (+5 oxidation state)
The -1 and +5 are the most stable states for iodine in water. Elemental iodine
(I2) is the form that is used as an antibiotic the other two common forms are
not really very toxic.
Lugol's solution contains I2 and I-. The I2 is not stable in seawater at all
and converts to I- and I+. The I+ then presumably reacts with a
myriad of other
molecules, including organics, to eventually end up as I-. It is estimated that
nearly 90% of the total iodine in Lugol's ends up as I-. And I'd say yes, if the
iodine is complexed with a skimmable organic molecule then it will be skimmed
away. I- is the form to dose in an aquarium, IMO. Corals and macro
algae
preferentially uptake I- over IO3-. Phytoplankton will consume IO3- and release
I-. That is likely where the I- in the ocean comes from. As you go down in
depth all the iodine is in the I03- form (meaning the I- is the more biological
active molecule). Notice the similarity between the IO3- molecule and the NO3-
molecule? The phytoplankton (and presumably even denitrifiers) can extract the
oxygen from the iodate molecule, use the I (+5) iodate ion in ReDox reactions
and excrete the "waste" I (-1), iodide
From what I've read regarding iodine I'd say there's more questions then
answers. There are some very complex reactions that can occur and it's not easy
to track them at such low concentrations.
I can look for sources to the above info if needed and hopefully I've remembered
everything correctly.
... Blundell >>
Iodine use
Hi
I have constructed a 500 gallon system for cryptic filter feeders.
There is an algae scrubber and a skimmer. I will be importing tunicates,
sponges,
Dendronephthya, file clams... water movement is via a fast current generated
by a large water lift into the scrubber, and a Wave2K. The system has three
tanks and two refugia, so that I can isolate and experiment.
There is an automatic top off unit for RO water. My question is- is
there any problem (other than the controversies about using iodine at all) with
putting the iodine in the freshwater top off tank? << I don't there is a
problem, but I would probably dose into the tank. >> This would allow continuous
infusion. Also, if no problem, can I also add two part alkalinity/calcium
supplement to the same reserve with no interactions (i.e. does iodine
precipitate
on calcium carbonate)? << Well you can't add the two parts of a two part
solution together. You could add buffer to your RO water, or add calcium, but
you can't add both. Soooo, I would suggest dosing iodine and calcium, and
adding your buffer to your RO water. I wouldn't mix calcium or iodine in,
because you don't really know what reactions may take place. >>
Thank you so much!
Charles Matthews
<< Blundell >>
Iodine (7/1/04)
Hi Crew, <Steve Allen tonight>
In one of the hundreds of postings I have read on WetWebMedia.com (and I think
in Bob or Anthony’s book), I remember reading a recommendation (from Bob or
Anthony, I think) to just use standard iodine from a pharmacy in a reef
aquarium. I have been unable to locate Lugol’s solution in any of the local
pharmacies. <Can be had on-line at www.liveaquaria.com> I can only locate
Povidone iodine, which I understand to be Potassium Iodide plus “inert
ingredients”. My concern is that the “inert ingredients” are either “pareth
25-9” or nonoxynol-9 <the spermicide used in condoms> (depending upon brand).
Both brands of Povidone iodine contain NaOH and one brand also contains ascorbic
acid (neither of which concern me) but I am concerned about these other “inert
ingredients”. <I would not use Povidone-iodine. It is meant as a disinfectant
(bactericidal agent). Better to use the Lugol's or another iodine supplement
meant for aquariums, IMHO.>
Would “pareth 25-9” or nonoxynol-9 be harmful to anything in a reef aquarium?
<These are poisons.> I did not realize nonoxynol-9 was used for anything other
than a contraceptive, so I find it a little odd that this is even added to
iodine solutions, unless it does kill simpler life forms <yes> (in which case I
would be
concerned about the effects to my filtration system and to my ‘pod
population). What recommendations do you have for using (or finding) standard
pharmaceutical iodine? <Personally, I'd just buy a reputable brand at the LFS or
on-line and follow the directions strictly. BTW, it is always best to test
before adding. Most people will tell you that you don't need to add iodine if
you are doing regular water changes. The whole issue is controversial. Hope this
helps.> --Greg
- Using Iodine/dide and Rose Bubble Lighting -
Greetings from Tampa,
<Greetings from Boca Raton.>
I work at an LFS and have some experience with freshwater and FOWLR systems,
with little to none in corals ( not that I pretend to have any when anyone
asks)(it has definitely given me the right starting point on basic questions of
inquiry in troubleshooting), but let me say that with WWM I at least have
somewhere to go to do some homework and at least have something to say about
things am unfamiliar with. <Good to hear.>
Quite simply, I am in an eternal state of gratefulness towards this site and all
its contents and would have felt a lot less confident/ informed otherwise.
So here's a big thank you, now on to the varied questions :)
- I've heard some differing opinions on the use of iodine/iodide dosing in
tanks, this also happens in the WetWebFotos forums as well where some people
swear by its use and others do just fine by saying water changes are enough and
using those added into their salt, I also find little information in The
Conscientious Marine Aquarist book which keep at the store where only 1-2
sentences are dedicated to it. at the same time I've seen some email responses
advocating its use on a daily basis where other staff members would consider it
much less important. Anyway, its hard to find literature on this, could you
recommend a website or another reading material that is comprehensive on the
subject? <None that I can think of, although I'd add Eric Borneman's Aquarium
Corals to your reading list - some good information there.> At most I'd like to
give an informed response to customers to the best of my abilities.
at most I understand the basics, utilized by some corals, depreciates quickly,
useful for molting of inverts. dosing is needed based on its consumption and is
somewhat replenished via the salt, but there's are all somewhat laymen and I
kind of desire a little more in-depth coverage of it, any help would be useful.
<I'm afraid I don't have a link for you.>
also, concerning BTAs, primarily a rose anemone, in your exp have you found any
clown that doesn't take to these? <Most perculas and ocellaris won't but there's
always exceptions to the rule.> because so far I've found that Clarkiis,
maroons, and Sebaes (sp), have all taken to this anemone. and after searching
through the FAQs and articles I have yet to find a general specification towards
their lighting (am assuming VHOs/ halides would be sufficient but would one
placed within around 1watt/gal fluorescents be sufficient in any case? <No...
they need more intense lighting.> I know these are rather basic but the best way
for me to learn is by asking the dummy questions first, at least you can
somewhat offset lack of experience in some cases with a plethora of information.
thanks for your help (WetWeb + FAQs and everything) I'll be bugging you soon am
certain
Jared
<Cheers, J -- >
Tech - I from Kent Marine, and limpets 5/22/04
Good morning to all,
<and to you in kind>
Just a few questions for you, hopefully you can help. You usually have all the
answers. I am curious if tech-I iodine supplement from Kent is okay to use. The
label says it has free iodine. My test kit says it is a bad thing.
<somewhat subjective here. There seems to be two "camps" regarding
advocacy of Lugol's strong iodine solution (the nutritive iodine of color/odor)
versus clear Potassium Iodide solutions. The other troubling thing is
several keyhole limpets in my hospital tank. I believe both can be useful, both
can indeed be abused/overdosed too. I favor Lugol's based solutions FWIW. I'm
not a bog fan of some bottled supplements though... then ones that do not date
their products for products with a definable lifespan/shelf-life. Iodine loses
efficacy over time once mixed ion solution>
scoured WWM and have found two different opinions. Bob says okay and Anthony
says they will eat soft coral flesh. I did find a big one sitting on my flower
leather, so I pulled him off.
<some Limpet species are algae grazers, and some are predators on various
reef invertebrates including corals (these tend to be the colorful ones with
frilly/fleshy mantles). It depends on the species.)
Thank you for always being there for me and my tanks. Thanks,
Hopeless reef keeper- Daniel
<best of luck, Anthony>
Iodine vs. Iodide 3/22/04
Quick question for you. I have the Kent Iodine product as well as Sea Chem's
Iodide. What is the difference between the two and should I use just one or
both? I was told that iodine converts to iodide which is what the corals
actually use and that using Iodide is just a quicker/safer method of dosing???
The type of invert/corals I have are as follows:
Cleaner Shrimp
Emerald Crab
Bubble Coral
Zoanthus
Metallic Green Moon Brain Coral
Rose Anemone
Green Star Polyps
Hawaiian feather duster
Sand sifting stars
Flame Scallops
Hermit type crabs
Thank You, Robert
<Just like any other supplement, I don't advise dosing Iodine or Iodide
without testing. As far as the difference, I actually had to go
search this one out! Iodine is I2 or two iodine atoms joined into a
molecule. Iodide is usually supplied as KI or potassium iodide. When
dissolve in water, KI dissociates into K+ and I-. I- combines with
oxygen to form IO3, and these two forms of Iodine are the most common in sea
water. Up to 1/3 of the iodine can be combined with organics, and
won't be measured by a test kit.
I2 has strong anti-bacterial properties because it is a strong oxidizing agent. Most
of the bad occurrences that are reported with iodine supplements are due to I2 or
Lugol's, which is a mixture of KI and I2. I would recommend sticking
with the Iodide product. Kent makes both an Iodide product and
packages Lugol's for aquarium use. If you are unsure, visit Kent's
website to be sure which you have. Best Regards. Adam>
Iodine Deficiency?
Hi all!
<Hi there! Scott F. with you today!>
I have a question about iodine and shrimp! I have a pair of scarlet
cleaners and at their last molt they seemed to have some trouble and one of them
now has crooked antennae and weak joints (they seem to bend just because of his
weight, it's not normal at all) This is the first time their molts
have gone bad and I just recently added new lights so of course the algae is
growing more. So could the growth of the additional algae have soaked
up all the iodine? That's all I could come up with for the problem
because I've had both these shrimp for several months and they've never had
problems.
<Interesting theory; unusual, but I suppose, possible.>
I add calcium twice a week so I don't think they're calcium deficient.
<My easy solution to the possible iodine problem is to test for it. If you do
find it a bit low, you can address the problem with regular water changes (which
will replenish this and other beneficial compounds), or, if absolutely
necessary- with iodine supplements. Remember to test for anything that you
intend to add to the tank, okay?>
And one other thing, some of the house plants I keep are showing necrosis of the
leaf tips because of the fluoride in the city water, could too much fluoride be
causing the shrimps' problems too?
<I really don't know- I suppose that is possible, but I'm leaning towards
your iodine theory>
My LFS suggested buying "Reef Evolutions" Potassium Iodide concentrate
and adding it regularly. will this do the trick if Iodine is the
problem?
<It will, but again- I implore you to test before adding any kind of
supplement to the system>
So many questions! At the very least I can say I've never learned so
much from a hobby as I've learned from keeping saltwater.
<It keeps you on your toes, huh?>
Crazy, confusing, amazing, beautiful stuff.
<Great description of the hobby, huh? Highly accurate, though!>
Thanks for your help, I really appreciate all the time you guys put into helping
out the little people (and their little pets) Have a fantastic week! Rachael
<Well, I'd like to thank the Academy, my agent, the manufacturers of Tropic
Marin...Seriously- we are happy to be here for you. I'm a hobbyist, just like
you. We learn as much as you do every day! Good luck! Regards, Scott F>
Where does all the iodine go
Hi,
<Hi Nate, Adam here today.>
In browsing your FAQs, I came across a number of statements that iodine
disappears from an aquarium very rapidly, maybe lasting only 6
hours. Where does the iodine go--is it absorbed by critters,
precipitate out of solution, "broken down" by the skimmer.
<Hmmm.. "broken down" may be a poor choice of
terminology. Iodine changes form, binds to organics and is absorbed
by organisms (particularly algaes). That which is bound to organics
may then be exported by the skimmer. Also, depending on the chemical
form it takes or if it binds to organics, the iodine may be present but not
detectible by a standard test kit.>
Even assuming daily doses, how can the denizens of a home reef system get enough
iodine if it is only present 1/4 of the time (6 hours out of every 24)?
<Well.... It really isn't gone, and even if it was, most critters
get quite a bit (enough to meet their needs in most cases) through food.>
Also, how does iodine in the ocean stay in a useable state?
<Again, different forms can be taken up by different organisms and the iodine
then enters the food chain. Also, the ocean represents such a vast
pool of any of the elements it contains, the concentrations rarely change.>
One last question--is it worth it to dose strontium or magnesium--or should I
simply rely on regular water changes?
<Water changes probably will meet these needs in most cases. I
would suggest testing for either before adding. The range of opinions
on Sr ranges from poison to mandatory. I no longer add it, and don't
think it has made a difference.>
Thanks Nate Terry
<No worries! Adam>
Iodinating Foods (1/9/2004)
Hi, thanks for taking my question. I was reading info regarding HLLE and how
iodine additions to food may be one way to help. <Nothing proven here.>
How would I do this? Should I just soak the food in a few drops of iodine before
feeding? Should I use a Lugol's solution or go with a Kent type iodide product?
Thanks, Angelo <General improvement of water conditions and overall nutrition
seem important here. HUFA/vitamin supplements may help. Soaking the food in a
marine iodine supplement could be done. Don't know if it will help or hurt.
Iodine is usually added to the water. I think Lugol's could be too
strong. Do read more here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/iodfaqs.htm
Hope this helps. Steve Allen.>
Lugol's Solution
Hello,
<hi>
I was thinking of trying Lugol's Solution for my iodine supplement into my 55G
tank. Is this a bad move? I see where you have to be very careful with it. I
read where I could dose it to 1 drop per 25 gallons. Now I assume I have to
account for LR and LS displacement so would probably dose 1 drop every day.
<Lugol's solution must be used carefully ONE drop per day is way to high to
start off. You should dose 1-2 drop per week. Then slowly move up the dose if
needed if you start to notice brown algae forming on the glass faster, you are
adding to much>
I guess I'm asking if this is a good product to use or should I just use regular
Iodine?
< I have used Lugol's for the past 5 years and have had no problems .Just
follow the directions. Good luck MikeH>
Thanks,
Mike
Interpretation Of Iodine Test Results...
Howdy.
<Hi there- Scott F. here today>
Dosing with Lugol's and had been using Salifert I2 test kit that is based on
pink color of supernatant. That test never produced detectable iodine so bought
new kit. New kit is much different (simpler, better?) and breaks out iodide,
iodate, iodine. Instructions say that formation of precipitate with iodide test
means concentration is greater than .2ppm. What is not clear to me is whether or
not they mean if precipitate forms at 2-minute mark or if it forms at all. At 2
minutes, yellow color matches .04-.06ppm color chip. At 3 minutes, dark ppt
forms. Are you familiar with this kit?
<I have used it in the past, but I do not have any recent experience with it.
You bring up a good point...Not sure if the precipitate forms at the two or
three minute mark...I would not assume anything, either.>
Does formation of ppt at 3 minutes mean that I need to back off dose? Salifert
Web site is under construction and LFS is no help, Thanks, George.
<Well, George, what I might try is the "end run" to get hold of
someone at Salifert that may have the knowledge of the workings of this
kit...I'd talk to the LFS and find out what wholesaler they get the kits from,
and-in turn, who supplies the wholesaler (hopefully, Salifert or their domestic
sales reps). Yep- it has all the makings of a wild goose chase, but it may help
you locate someone at the company who can help. In fact- here's an open call to
any WWM reader that might know the answer to this question, as well....Regards,
Scott F>
-Undetectable iodine and strontium levels?-
Thanks Kevin! Forgot to add that I do have an Aiptasia-friendly Lysmata
amboinensis but no peppermint shrimp. How would peppermint shrimp get along with
its tank mate?
<They'd get along fine and dandy>
When I looked when I got home this afternoon, I could not find the smallest of
the Aiptasia. Do you think a snail or hermit crab found them?
<Doubtful, it may have gotten stepped on and retracted.>
I would think that feeding to support all snails and hermit crabs may be too
close to over-feeding. Is it appropriate to feed for the fish and corals and let
the chips fall where they may in terms of carrying capacity? I assume that means
some shrimp and hermit crabs will become food for each other.
<You got it>
I have been testing and St and I have been almost undetectable.
<That's bizarre, I doubt that the tests are accurate.>
Have read that one may not want to add these nutrients or much else when
fighting unwelcome inhabitants. Should I keep those levels up anyway for the
sake of the animals I want to keep?
<If you are going to add anything, you should be testing for it. Since both
of those levels are undetectable, you may want to verify with another quality
test kit, because quite frankly I think they're dead wrong! Good luck!
-Kevin>
Cheers, George.
-Low Sr. and Iodine-
Okay, maybe they are not undetectable but they are at the low end of the
spectrum. Using Salifert test kits. <Very reputable> I guess my question
is, should I go ahead and bring Sr and I concentrations up to what would be
considered adequate or keep them low for now considering the presence of
Aiptasia.
<If your goal is to best replicate NSW, I would keep these concentrations at
NSW levels. Adding either of these chemicals shouldn't result in an increase in
Aiptasia in the tank. Good luck! -Kevin>
Thanks again, George.
- Removing Excess Iodine -
Dear Folks,
<Good morning, JasonC here...>
I believe I have overdosed my tank with an iodine additive. I had a
brand new test for it, which kept telling me I had none at
all. Finally realized the test was wrong and the levels were
sky-high. <Oh my...> I have lost several clams and a zoanthid
colony. My question is this: Other than water changes and
carbon is there any way to remove the offending element quickly? <If you have
an efficient protein skimmer the iodine will get blown out fairly quickly -
within a week.> I have been doing water changes and carbon replacements every
other day for over a month and the levels still seem to be high (got another
test, duh). I thought iodine was supposed to deplete quickly, but
it's been six weeks! <Then something is wrong with your test kit(s). Iodine
is reactive enough that the carbon and water changes should have eliminated it
quite a while ago.> Any advice you could give me, other than quit dosing the
tank, would be appreciated. <Well... stopping the dosing will help too, but
do check with the folks where you obtained your test kit - something seems wrong
with either the kit or your methodology.>
Thanks! Pam
<Cheers, J -- >
I AM CONFUSED BY SUPPLEMENTS ETC..
Bob, Anthony, et al.., thanks for all of your help, I never would have been
able to achieve the success I now welcome without all of your help! Several
weeks ago I contacted Anthony regarding what type of lighting addition to use, I
must say that his response guided me toward the purchase of an additional 175W
MH, one will be 10,000k one 20,000k as Bob states in his book (this is on
a 55 so I have some heat to get rid of!!!)
<no worries... a comparable fluorescent light system would need to be so
close to the water that you'd have the same heat issues. All are tempered by a
good open canopy and inexpensive muffin fans to run>
My question is this, I have been following the GARF method of supplements and
have had a bit of success, but all of the reading I have done seems to indicate
that IODIDE dosing is very important,
<agreed... and I favor small daily doses while Bob likes weekly>
particularly to certain corals. Are there any adverse affects to other species
such as Acros from high levels?
<you'd have to define high levels. I suspect that reasonable doses (stock
solutions listed in Sprung's book, my coral prop book, etc... are no trouble at
all. And iodine is unfortunately removed from any system VERY fast... about 6
hours (hence my daily dose rec' for fast coral growth>
I use SeaChem, should I stay with the manufacturers recommendation or dose
heavier?
<Unless you are farming corals, stick with mfg dose and break it down daily
IMO>
Also, my temp fluctuates 3 degrees per day (79 at night to 82 w/ current halide)
is this too much of a fluctuation?
<a bit much for fishes (Ich). Exhaust lights better by day and add a second
heater for stability. Set temp to 82 F even>
Addicted- Tom
<at risk of committal- Anthony>
Iodine for HLLE
Hello, I was reading your HLLE FAQ page and you mentioned to use iodine. How do
you use this? Is it a food additive, water additive, what is it?
<Iodine is usually used as a water additive. Merely follow the manufacturer's
directions for its use.>
Thanks
<You are welcome. -Steven Pro>
Using Iodine for HLLE II
Thanks, does iodine work real good? Just wondering how effective it was.
<It is not a cure for HLLE. It can be helpful when used with improving
overall water quality, diet, etc. Please read the article and FAQ files on
www.WetWebMedia.com concerning HLLE. -Steven Pro>
Dosing Iodine
Hey crew!
I haven't bothered you guys for quite a while....and that fact is bothering me
:)
<Not a bother! Really! Scott F. here tonight>
My tank's been set up for three months and I now have a cleaner shrimp. I know
they need iodide to molt correctly. I've read on your site faq's that iodide is
difficult to test as it escapes the system quickly. All I have is one cleaner
shrimp and a blenny in a 55g with 60lbs of LR. Any safe dosing plan I could use
for my tank size without using a test kit?
<To be honest with you, I've always subscribed to the theory that Bob offers:
If you're going to dose something, be prepared to test for it. To try to use
"seat of the pants" dosing for iodine (or any other additive, for that
matter) is just not a good idea. Every system uses iodine at a different rate,
and it's impossible to generalize how much to dose (well, maybe not impossible-
but really difficult!). How much iodine to dose for a couple of small shrimp?
Who knows! In my opinion, it's much better to employ frequent small water
changes (like 5%-10% twice weekly) to assure that your level of vital elements
(iodine included) are replenished. You and your animals will be happier in the
long run.>
I have a bottle of reef iodide from Seachem that I've had for 5 years maybe.
Think it's still potent?
<I'd contact the manufacturer on that one>
>One more thing, is it ok to have two cleaner shrimp in a 55g together?
<It depends on the type of cleaner shrimp that you are referring
to. Lysmata and Periclimenes shrimps can do fine in groups, but the larger
shrimp, such as Stenopus hispidus (the Banded Coral Shrimp) will tear each other
to shreds in most cases unless kept in mated pairs. Do check the WetWebMedia.Com
site for more information on these shrimp.>
Thanks as always for your fantastic help...Justaguy.
<Thanks for stopping by! Good luck>
Iodine supplementation
Hello Crew, I'm confused about iodine supplementation.
<Great... you're better off than I am: I have a much longer list of things
that I'm confused about!>
I have various invertebrates and some turtle grass. It's my
understanding that iodine supplementation benefits both plants and inverts.
<Indeed... an essential trace element>
I recently bought Seachem Reef Iodide and a Salifert I2 test kit. I
originally tested my water and got nil for a reading. So I added
iodide as per directions. After 12 hours, I tested again and got nil
result. So I repeated the procedure the next day. Again,
nil result.
<yep... not a big surprise either. Iodine lasts in most systems for about 6
hours. Hence the need in my opinion for small daily doses>
I have since read that iodine ions "escape" the system readily and are
not detectable after only a few hours.
<agreed... when dosed small and or in systems with good skimming, heavy
bio-load and/or active chemical filtration>
If this is the case, what good is supplementing and it appears that the test is
rather superfluous as well. I think there's something I'm missing
here. Thanks, Mike
<I'd begin with the manufacturers recommended daily dose and divide to daily
doses. Use that for 2-4 weeks. If you do not see an increase in brown diatom
algae, then you are not dosing too much. In time you can slightly increase the
doses (and wait 2-4 weeks after each increment) by using diatom growth as an
indicator for how much you can push the envelope. More is not better with
Iodine, but daily is highly recommended in small daily doses IMO. Best regards,
Anthony>
Iodine for mushrooms and soft coral
I read on your web site, mushrooms need iodine.
<all corals, especially soft coral, need iodine>
My salt which is one that says it has every trace minor major element in it like
iodine, will this be enough till next week when I buy some liquid iodine
<yes... a week delay is fine. But iodine only lasts for 6-12 hours in most
tanks. That is why some people prefer to dose a very small amount daily>
I also noticed brine shrimp adult centimeter in size could I feed them this do
they need to be dead? Thanks, JM
<brine shrimp is a very poor grade food (low nutrition). Other frozen foods
would be better like krill, plankton and especially Mysid shrimps. Anthony>
Iodine Test
Hey guys, I keep reading about how I need to make sure my iodine levels are correct but I
don't seem to be able to find a test kit for it in my local pet stores. What exactly am I to look for? Thanks Robert
<Hey Robert, jump on over to one of the WetWebMedia.com sponsors and look at Seachem or Salifert test kits for iodine. You can jump to any
WetWeb page and hit one of the links. Custom Aquatics, Foster and Smith, all have them. Craig>
Iodine and HLLE
Hello, I have been reading your site and seen something about iodine and
HLLE. Where would I be able to get this and how do you use this? Thanks!
<Hi Mark! HLLE is a nutritional deficiency in fish. Iodine itself won't do
anything to resolve or treat HLLE. For the FAQ you were reading, go to
WetWebMedia.com scroll to the bottom of the page and type "HLLE,
iodine" into the google search. For the information you want on iodine,
type it into the search engine and you will find gobs of information on iodine
and it's usage. It is available in two forms from most marine fish stores. Hope
this is what you had in mind! Craig>
Overdosed with Potassium Iodide
Bob,
Yesterday I mistakenly over dosed my 65g system with 1/2 teaspoon of pure potassium iodide.
<Yeeikes!>
After I realized it, I immediately did a 50% water change, however the system still smell like medicine cabinet,
and all fishes and corals are looking sick. Is there a quick way to neutralized the potassium iodide other
than doing the water changes?
<Yes. Please immediately add about half a pound of activated carbon in your filter flow path... and/or a unit of PolyFilter...>
As always appreciates your quick response and help.
Thanks
Wayne
<Be ready to move, remove organisms if/when they die. Bob Fenner>
Ro unit, Iodine
Bob, I have been trying different methods of controlling green and red
algae. One method was purchasing distilled water from a local store and
using that to make salt water.
<Expensive, time-consuming, bulky>
I use RC salt because I am slowly adding soft corals to my tank. I would
like to use my tap water instead of buying it.
What kind of RO unit could I buy to help with my problem? What exactly
should I be concerned about besides phosphate in my tap water?
<Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/water4maruse.htm and go to the R.O. FAQs link on top...>
I would like to starve the green and red algae. I even have Caulerpa, but that
helps a little. My protein skimmer works hard daily, I have to clean it out
every 2
days. I purchased bubble coral and Xenia. The bubble is doing great, but the
Xenia was acting funny until I add iodine and then 2 days later it was back
to normal. What exactly is in the iodine that the Xenia likes and how much
lighting does it need (hours)?)?
<Please look up the Xeniids, FAQs on WetWebMedia.com. For the latter, it's the iodine/iodide element, ion itself... this matter is a part of Pulsing Coral (and our) essential nutrients. Bob Fenner>
Calcium (and iodide/iodine)
hello guys,
I have a quick question. am a bit confused about the difference between
iodide and iodine as supplements for my shrimp.
<different forms in solution. Iodide is "safer", Lugol's solution
is a nutritive Iodine and more potent. Bob favors iodide, I favor Lugol's
(iodine mixed with iodide)>
calcium, do ya need it or does the sand, shells, etc in tank supply it..
<depends on draw from inverts in the tank... if low demand, water changes
will bring enough in ... but do get a calcium test kit and aim for 350-450 ppm
(the low end is fine)>
thanks a lot. I only have two clowns two snails and two cleaner
shrimp......Jennifer
<ahhh...yes. Save your money for now on supplements. A small weekly water
change will give you these benefits and so much more. Anthony>
Re: ich freaking me out
hello again.<Anthony Calfo back in the seahorse saddle of WWM>
can I use Betadine in a dip? or is it toxic.
<can be toxic is abused like most meds, but in this case it would only be effective (or mostly so) in treating/preventing secondary infections from the wounds caused by the parasites... not the little suckers themselves>
also...what is the best value |
