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FAQs on Marine pH, Alkalinity, Problems, Troubleshooting,
Fixing
Related Articles: pH, Alkalinity, Marine
Alkalinity, Synthetic or Natural Seawater,
Water Changes/Changing,
Understanding
Calcium & Alkalinity,
Related FAQs: Marine pH, Alkalinity 1,
Marine pH, Alkalinity 2, Marine pH, Alkalinity
3, Marine pH/Alkalinity 4, Marine
pH 5, Marine pH 6,
Marine pH 7,
Marine pH 8,
& FAQs on pH: Importance, Science,
pH Measure/Test Gear, pH Controllers
&
pH Buffers/Buffering,
& pH Products by Name, Manufacturer, &
Marine
Supplements 2,
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To Do:
Check your pH test gear against a known.
Consider sources of high/low pH influence... and correct
When, where in doubt, change a good deal of the water.
|
My pH has me baffled 6/16/08
Hello,
And thank you for the numerous hours of reading and education you have provided
for this hobby. I have found many answers to questions and yet this one has
continued to elude me.
Set Up
29 Gallon BioCube 26-28 lbs. of beautiful Bali LR (filled with a plethora of
amazing hitchhikers) and 20lbs Aragonite live sand. Up for just over 2 months.
Oceanic Skimmer in chamber 1, Slowly decreasing number of bio balls in chamber
2, soon to be none. (Considering turning the wet/dry section into a cheery
little Chaeto refug. buffet for a pod colony.
>Oooh, good idea<
Would love any suggestions on that.)
<Add some small pieces of live rock too, a DSB of fine oolitic material if it'll
fit>
I use RO/DI water for mixing and top off with Tropic-Marin for sea salt. (No
salt used in top off water.)
Nitrites, Nitrates and Ammonia all read 0. Phos. 0, Spec. Gravity 1.0235
<I'd raise this a bit... 1.025-1.026>
Alk. 9dkh Temp. 80 degrees
And my evil Ph. 7.8.
<Mmmm>
My LFS told me that their tanks run at the same PH, and that it shouldn't be a
problem with my livestock.
<Likely not, but...>
Thus I ended up adding a scarlet hermit and a Nassarius snail. Everything seems
to be thriving including the numerous hitchhiking inverts. but the PH still kind
of concerns me. I've been told its not too big of a deal, but do want to move up
to a reef tank eventually and figure the best time to learn is now so I'm not
sacrificing corals to my own naivety in the future. Then again the other LFS
told me that my PH is way too low and I should never have added my crab and
snail. Pretty much the same kind of contradictions I've found online.
<Ah, yes>
I've followed just about every opinion on how to pinpoint the cause of the low
PH to almost no avail. Then I got curious, what is my mixed saltwater reading
at?
<Mmmm, well...?>
I know I should have been doing this from the get go, but my LFS had assured me
that by reaching the proper salinity with my sea salt that all its chemicals
will naturally balance my parameters cause that's what it is made to do.
<A good presumption here>
And sure enough, after testing my premix I discover that though ALK is fine my
PH is still reading 7.8 before it even reaches the tank. I'm at a loss for what
to do. I aerate the water in my mixing bucket for probably about 48 hours before
using, and the ph reads the same both before and after.
<I'd buffer your RO summarily... before mixing the salt>
I've looked for answers to fixing PH when ALK is fine and have found very little
in the form of a solution. I bought a container of SeaChem ReefBuffer, since it
states that it will gradually raise PH and stabilize it at 8.3 but then read
more when I got it home and saw that you should use this product when PH is not
a problem. (This has put my logic to the test, since I question why would you
use something to raise PH if PH wasn't the problem in your tank.)
<Is a good product, mix of compounds... should be of use here>
Needless to say I have avoided doing anything just yet and pray that someone can
help me please. Is there a way to increase the Ph without throwing my ALK out of
whack, or do I just listen to my LFS and deal with it?
<I would use a minimum of the SeaChem product in your new water change outs...
this, coupled with your proposed and ongoing changes with your wet dry sump (the
removal of plastic media, the instigation of the Chaetomorpha culture, addn. of
substrate of calcareous nature) will almost assuredly rectify all here>
I would really like to find some kind of solution as I do not wish to add
anything more until I figure this out. At least if something horrible happens
right now I'm out a 2$ Hermit and a 5$ snail.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks ahead of time,
Brandon
<Thank you for sharing, writing so well/carefully. I do consider that you are
well on your way. Cheers! Bob Fenner>
|
pH Problem 4/11/08
Hello Crew, I hope all is well.
<Hello Jay, it is here, thank you.>
I have a question about low pH. The aquarium
in question is 180 gallons, with 320 pounds of live aragonite live sand and 200
pounds of live rock. It has a large sump with between 60 and 70 gallons
water, a few inches of mud and lot of Chaetomorpha (enough to fill at least a 5
gallon bucket).
<You will need to harvest some of this as some point.>
The refugium is on a 24 hour lighting cycle.
<This is usually not recommended for Chaetomorpha, although I have seen it work
in quite a few instances.>
The main tank has no livestock at the moment, and has been running for about 9
months with no lights. There is no regular dosing at this time, other than
some liquid part A and B calcium from time to time. The pH was stable at 8.2-
8.3 until the sump had to be turned off for about a week due to a leaking
pump. The pH dropped down to 7.8 while the sump was off.
<Not unexpected.>
The pump has been back on for about 2 weeks, but the pH is still at 7.8. I am
worried because the aquarium does not seem to be buffering the pH any more.
Could it be a
faulty pH monitor (it has a new battery and has been recalibrated at least
twice)?
<It certainly could be, the probes need to be replaced periodically. Confirm
your readings with a test kit.>
I know that microorganisms in the sand and rock probably caused the pH drop, but
could they be producing so much CO2 that the pH cannot return
to 8.2 - 8.3??
<Hmm, no.>
Any ideas as to what is wrong?
<Are you testing other parameters, mainly carbonate hardness? The results here
may show the problem. More information is needed.>
Thank you very much for your time!
-Jay
<Welcome, Scott V.>
Re: pH Problem
4/12/08
Scott- thank you for your quick response.
<Welcome.>
The water samples are sent out to
a company for testing. The results should arrive in about a week, so
I'll take a look at the carbonate hardness.
<I strongly urge you to get your own test kit for this. Your test
results will be meaningless to you after this period of time. Alkalinity
can change significantly from day to day, especially in a reef tank. The
A and B you are dosing should not be added without the test kits (Alk
and Ca) to go with.>
If the alkalinity/ carbonate hardness is low, that will lower the pH,
correct?
<Yes, certainly.>
I'm not sure what would have caused this to happen to begin with. The
only "factor" in the equation is the broken pump.
<Likely a coincidence. Get some test kits to know for your self in real
time what is going on with your tank. Without this knowledge your chance
at long term success is nil.>
Thanks,
Jay
<Welcome, Scott V.>
Re: pH Problem
4/12/08Scott, thanks for all of the great advice!
<Very welcome.>
I do have home tests (API brand, I think), but the mail away seemed so
much more accurate.
<A “lab” grade may be. Fact of the matter is some of these mail in test
use the same test kit you or I would use. Even if it is more accurate,
it is out of date by the time you get the results!>
What brand do you recommend?
<I like the Salifert test kits for the price, quality and ease of use.>
How often should I test alkalinity and calcium?
<Daily until you get the problem under control. Do also confirm your
electronic PH reading with a test kit.>
How about magnesium/ total hardness?
<Good to measure the Mg. Without an sufficient level you may have a hard
time getting the KH you need.>
Will part A and B mixes raise pH?
<It will raise the KH, in turn the PH if your carbonate hardness it too
low. It will also raise the Ca level, hence the need to test these to be
sure they are in appropriate proportions.>
Thank you so much,
Jay
<Welcome, do let us know what comes of it all! Scott V.>
Re: pH Problem 4/19/08
Hi Scott!
<Hello again Jay!>
I just wanted to e-mail you the results of the
water test: Mg-1125, Alkalinity- 2.5 meq/l, Calcium- only 210. Do you think
daily dosing of
part A and B mixes will correct the alkalinity/
calcium and buffer the pH?
<Yes, daily addition, raising the levels a bit
each day, testing in between doses. If you Mg does not come up with the dosing
you will want to get a supplement to raise that 100-150 points also.>
Thanks!
Jay
<Welcome, Scott V.>
|
Need Help To Get To 8.3
(Trouble Maintaining pH) – 04/01/08
WetWebMedia,
<<Rachel>>
I have been working very hard to get my pH to 8.3. Right now it still only tops
out at 8.1 during the day.
<<Not all that bad, really>>
Here are my specs:
55 gallon reef
calcium 380ppm
magnesium 1200
pH 7.8 morning 8.1 late day.
alkalinity 4.0meg/l kH value of 8
Nitrate / Nitrite / ammonia not detectable.
I tried to use Seachem Reef Buffer (the one that raises pH to 8.3) and it didn’t
move the pH.
<<Hmm..perhaps a larger dose is needed>>
I added 1 tsp. which should have raised the pH by .1 and I retested my pH the
following morning. I was expecting to see 7.9 instead of my 7.8 ... but I still
had a pH close to 7.8.
<<Dosage can/will vary from system to system…even of the same size. I would try
a larger dose of the buffer; say two-teaspoons, while keeping an eye on both
Alkalinity and pH. If that doesn’t help, you can keep increasing the dosage (by
a quarter-teaspoon) until your Alkalinity starts to rise…just be sure to not let
the Alkalinity get too high (follow the directions on the container) else you
run the risk of a precipitation event>>
My new salt water mixes to 8.2 pH and has an alkalinity of 3.5 meg/l and when I
add it to the tank it will raise the pH a little bit; however, it drops right
back down after a day or two.
<<Mmm, sounds like maybe the system is overstocked, or maybe has an accumulation
of detritus that is driving down pH>>
I am really running out of ideas.
<<The ionic balance between Calcium, Magnesium, Alkalinity looks pretty good so
I’m guessing you have kept up with small water changes. But, have you tried a
LARGE water change yet? If you try a larger water change (40%-50%) and the pH
holds for a bit longer than before, then I would suspect something in the system
driving down the pH (e.g. - accumulated organics)>>
Right now my tank is around 1.5 years old. For the first year the pH was perfect
and it has slowly been dropping.
<<Not atypical…especially in smaller/smallish systems like yours. It is likely
your rock/substrate has lost much of its buffering capacity and just can’t keep
up. Swapping out/adding some new rock should help if so>>
I have one last ditch effort that I would like to try but I wanted to run it by
you guys first. I am going to siphon out all of the sand and give it a good
cleaning in some freshly made salt water and put it back in the tank. Maybe if I
get out all of the organics that have been building up in the water I can raise
the pH again.
<<If the substrate is course (larger than “sugar-fine”), and water flow has been
less than optimum, this may well be the problem and cleaning it will be of
benefit. If your substrate is shallow (.75” or less), pulling it out to clean it
probably won’t pose any problem other than clouding the water. Still, do add
some supplementary chemical filtration while doing this…something like a
canister filter with carbon. If the substrate is deep, then I suggest either
trying to “vacuum” in place, or remove it in “thirds” for cleaning. But while
we’re on the topic of “removal,” why not just “replace” the substrate with new
of an Aragonite composition? The new substrate can be easily “seeded” from your
old…and the increased buffer will certainly help your problem>>
Should I read something on my test kits if this was the case?
<<Nope…other than the pH stabilizing (hopefully). But do watch for increased
levels in the Nitrogen cycle due to disturbance of microbes/removal of
biological filtration capacity…and be ready to increase water changes/supplement
filtration to cope until all “ramps up” again>>
Right now the hair algae is starting to outcompete the hard purple algae and I
would really like to get my tank back on track.
<<Ah…and the nuisance algae is likely why you don’t register any Nitrate…should
accumulated organic matter be the issue here. And I just had another thought…how
“open” is this system and how much water flow/movement is present? Could
accumulated CO2 be your problem? You can test this by placing a sample in a
container with a heater (to match the temp of the display tank) and an airstone
and let it run (outside) for a couple hours and see if the pH rises. And if you
haven’t yet, have a look at this article on pH and Alkalinity…as well as a
peruse among the associated links: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marphalk.htm >>
Rachel
<<Regards, EricR>>
Falling pH and Alkalinity in
an Older Reef System – 03/26/08
Hello Crew,
<<Greetings, Steve>>
I've spent many an hour on your site getting information and use it often.
<<Hey…me too!>>
I have a 180 gal reef, 5 yrs old, 4 fish all been around 2+ years everything
very healthy.
<<Good to know>>
My tank is heavily stocked with corals, LPS, SPS and softies, I do major pruning
each month.
<<Cool>>
I have a euro <<Euro-Reef?>> skimmer and I run a calcium reactor, I recently
purchased a controller and the software to monitor my tank.
<<Though not a “necessity,” electronic controllers/testing devices sure do
simplify monitoring of our systems…and usually with greater accuracy over the
more common (conventional?) methods>>
I was running my calcium reactor around 20 hrs a day keeping 8-10 dKH; adjusting
the time as needed to maintain. I tested my pH with a color test kit and thought
all was well. The first surprise I got with the new controller was the pH in my
tank was running 8.05 in the evening and 7.6 by early am.
<<Mmm…quite a wide swing>>
With the software you can see it follow the lighting cycle almost to the minute
and continue to drop during the night and start back up at 10am when the first
lights come on.
<<Hee-hee! Aren’t “toys” great!>>
I checked the probes and calibration (even bought a second one) and it appears
to be right.
<<Ah, good…always best to “test the tester” before making any drastic changes>>
I haven't done anything yet other than tried the Kalk slurry and buffer my top
off water. The Kalk didn't do much, it just settled back down to the same
reading.
<<Mmm, yes…is a temporary/short-lived/daily solution. It “will” help…perhaps a
larger dose for your “heavily stocked” system? Though best not to make increases
of more than 2-tenths on the pH scale at a time>>
I have a fully automated top-off and RO/DI system and really don't want to start
having to add daily or weekly supplements.
<<Understood… I’m not a fan of this and try to automate all I can, myself>
I took a sample this AM outside and ran an air pump in the water it went from
7.65 to 7.85 in about 2 hrs.
<<Hmm…>>
I understand about excess Co2 from your site. I have a second chamber on order
for my calcium reactor as a first step.
<<Very good>>
My question is about aeration, if it works with the sample can I not do it to
the tank to solve this, I've read not to aerate the sump, could you explain why?
<<Salt creep, mate… The spray from the bubbles as they burst at the water’s
surface make a horrible mess of things>>
My tank is next to a window so I could pump in fresh air, could I run it in the
tank at night after the lights go off and if so how would you suggest, air stone
down towards the bottom?
<<Just pumping some fresh air in to the cabinet where the sump resides may help
a bit…but rather than using an airstone, I would add a powerhead to move the
water about (maybe even agitate the surface slightly) to facilitate better gas
exchange. You can do this in both the display and the sump. Also, if you have
covers on the tank, removing them will also improve gas exchange>>
My only concern in addressing this at all is my ORP and Ozone. I had bought an
Ozone generator but did not hook it up after reading about being able to monitor
it. My controller came with an ORP probe so I added the ozone. At first the
reading was 290-300. I slowly adjusted it up with the ozone over a 2 week period
and the controller is set to maintain 350-385. After another week the ORP
started to follow the pH swing.
<<Yes>>
As the pH falls the ORP rises, now it stays at 400 at the pH low point and only
falls to 380 at the pH high point so now the ozone does not come on at all.
<<But these ORP readings are quite good…why worry that the Ozone generator is
not running? It will be there when/if needed>>
When I tried the Kalk and raised the pH in the evening to 8.2 the ORP
immediately fell back to 350.
The only adjustment I've made was the time on the calcium reactor, I thought
that might help, it did not, my Alk just fell and I have to add a buffer to get
it back up to 8 dKH.
<<Mmm, best to keep the Calcium reactor running to maintain bio-mineral content.
The second chamber you have coming will probably help some as it will allow an
increase of the affluent pH. Adding a small vegetable refugium to receive this
affluent, rather than having it run directly to the sump, may also help some.
You also stated the system is 5yrs old…likely the buffering capacity of the live
rock is exhausted. Exchanging some rock and/or Aragonite sand may also help.
Look also to your salt mix…perhaps a change is needed. And do start/continue to
buffer makeup water. I find on “automated” systems that this is often easily and
effectively achieved with the use of a Kalkwasser reactor plumbed in-line to the
sump. You can also simply place a portion/bag of calcareous material (crushed
coral/live rock/Aragonite sand) in the holding tank. You didn’t mention water
changes…perhaps these need to be increased to keep up with the demands on the
tank. I doubt any “one” solution is the answer here…likely it will take a
combination of these to achieve your desired result>>
Thanks,
Steve
<<Hope this helps. EricR>>
Sand Bed, pH, and More
3/13/08
Hi Crew,
<Hello>
I have a few questions. I have had a 46 bow front reef going for about 5 yrs.
now. I have about 50+ lbs of live rock and my substrate is 4 in. of crushed
coral and live sand mixed. LFS told us to do this when we went from fish only to
reef (6 months later). I would like to go with one or the other.
<Sand>
There is a lot of detritus on the live rock. Which critters are best at cleaning
that up and are reef safe?
<You mostly, get more circulation to keep it suspended where the skimmer can
pull it out.>
Another question, I've been taking a water sample to my LFS every 2 weeks
everything tests fine except my calcium (380) and ph (7.8) I've been adding ph
buffer and calcium daily and doing 10 % water changes every 2 weeks. Any
suggestions on increasing these.
<I would do the water changes weekly, and make sure you buffer you top-off and
water change water before adding it to your tank.>
I have a Hagen test kit that I can't stand. Cal and ph are hard to read, that's
why I take my sample to the LFS.
<Ok, have you tried other brands? You can even get an electronic pH tester
fairly cheaply.>
I would like to add a star fish any recommendations?
<A Serpent Star would probably be ok.>
My tank consists of: A brand new Remora protein skimmer with MaxiJet 1200, and 2
Hydor 2 pumps for water movement.
<I have 5 smallish powerheads in my 46, I think more water movement will help
here.>
I can't think of my lighting, but I do know that it is enough for clams. Do I
need anything else to keep my tank beautiful?
<Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.>
I don't have any room for a sump or refugium. Thank you for your help.
1 maroon clown
1 yellow tang (will get rid of when too big)
<Already is regardless of size.>
1 Naso tang (will get rid of when too big)
<Same>
2 lawnmower blennies
1 bubble coral
1 flowerpot coral
1 chili coral
3 Nephthea
1 rainbow polyp rock
1 open brain coral
2 peppermint shrimp
2 Astraea snails
Everything is doing quite well in the tank.
<Good>
<Chris>
High Ph Low Alk 03/11/2008
Hi everyone,
After years of looking and reading all information on your site I have to say
you have to be the most informative site on the net. That being said, I find
little information on our problem. Here's the tank info .. 6 year old 125G reef
, 55G sump/ refugium with 4" sand bed and some Chaeto, AquaC EV120, 3 powerheads
for flow, half crushed coral substrate, half sand, 150 to 200 pounds live rock.
Top off water and water changes done with RO/DI and Red Sea Coral Pro Salt.
Fish: Yellow Tang, Powder Brown Tang, Lawnmower Blenny, 3 Ocellaris Clownfish,
Mandarin Dragonet, Coral Beauty, 2 Cleaner Shrimps, Hermit Crabs, Snails etc.
Lots of little Mysis and Pods. Unfortunately some bigger Bristleworms (due to I'm
sure nutrient rich tank)
Corals: 2 Bubble Corals one green one purple, Zoa rock, Torch Coral, Frogspawn,
Suncoral, Hammer Coral, Ricordea and other Mushrooms, on the opposite side of
the tank Purple Leather Coral, and a Devils Hand Leather, Green and Red Favia.
Coco worm and various other feather dusters.
Parameters: March 4, 2008 they were Temp 78, Ph 8.4, SG 1.026, Alk 2.2 mEq/l, Ca
400ppm, Nitrate 20 ppm, Nitrite 0, Amm 0, Phos .02
March 6, 2008 they were Temp 78, Ph 8.6, SG 1.026, Alk 3 mEq/l, Ca 350 ppm,
Nitrate 20 ppm, Nitrite 0, Amm 0, Phos .02
We use a Refractometer for SG, Ph probe (double checked level with chemical
test), Red Sea tests for Calcium, Nitrate, Phosphates, Hagen test kit for
Nitrites, and KH, API for Ammonia.
Now I know on your site it says its uncommon and of course it happens to us. So
in trying to raise our alkalinity we used good ole Arm and Hammer baking soda.
Which it did raise it however just to have it drop off a day or two later.
<Mmm, yes... likely the biomineralizing life...>
We hate adding things to our tank but being as it is 6 years old perhaps
inevitable.
<Mmmm, see here: http://wetwebmedia.com/substrepl.htm
and the linked files above... till you read enough re the rationale of adding
to/replacing some of the substrate, rock...>
I know that calcium, alkalinity, and magnesium all kind of work together to
provide a stable environment however we are having a hard time trying to find a
magnesium test in our city.
<See our Links pages for Marine... I'd order via an etailer>
Would that possibly be the reason for our issue?
<The issue? Loss of alkalinity? Not likely>
What I would like to know is what would be the cause of this spike in Ph?
<Mmm, likely artifactual... the test kit... no cause for alarm>
Can you suggest any possible solutions for us. We've gone 6 years without having
to ask any questions just by reading information on your site so I'd like to say
a big thank you, you don't know how much WetWeb has helped over the years.
Tracy
<Renewing part of the hard-scape would be my longer-solution... a DSB of good
depth, fine sand... Bob Fenner>
pH Problem - 3-10-08
Hey guys,
<How goes it? Mike here this evening>
I have a question for you about my PH level. First off here is the info on my
system:
PH- 7.9 morning 8.1 mid day
Calcium-370
Alk-3.5- 4.0 approx mEq/l
I use RO water from a 4 stage Kent maxima
Seachem carbon in use and RowaPhos
Nitrate, nitrite, ammonia, and phosphate all read 0 or very close to 0. (got the
Merck kit for phosphates :) )
I can't seem to get my ph up to 8.3 during the day. I have doubled my water
changes to 2x per week to try to correct the ph problem; however, I haven't had
any luck. I use the SeaChem for reef tanks salt mix. My alkalinity was around
2.5 and my calcium was around 450 about a week ago and I have been adding more
part B of C-balance to try to balance to raise the alkalinity. I figured that
once I got the alkalinity to 4.0 the ph would end up higher…but it isn't. I
think for my alkalinity level my calcium level is just a hair low but I don't
think that it could account for the reduction in ph.
If anyone can shed some light on this let me know. I really don't want to use
chemical means to raise the ph, but the water changes are having little effect.
Oh yea…one more thing. I tested the water from the salt mix and it has a ph of
around 8.26 after sitting for several hours.
<Get hold of Seachem's buffer, buffer your RO water to ~8.3 before adding the
salt mix, and I bet your pH issues disappear. Salt mixes don't really have
enough buffers in them to keep RO water at a high, stable pH>
Thanks!
<Anytime>
Steve
<M. Maddox>
Re: Sick clownfish? pH
vacillation... 12/23/07
Hi Bob (and crew),
<Jas>
Thanks for your replies and advice so far. The clownfish is in stable condition
-- not getting worse, maybe a little more normal.
However, something strange is definitely going on with my water, which is
probably related. I have a pH monitor (PinPoint), so I can watch the pH all day
(fun!). I 2-point calibrated it in early Dec. The normal range in my tank seems
to be 7.9-8.2 or so. As usual, the pH goes down in the dark and up during lights
on. Lately, though, I have noticed the pH go DOWN at some point during the reef
daylight. In fact, it's happening right now, not too long before the lights go
out for the night. It is currently 7.93 and holding, though it dropped rather
quickly (less than 1 hour) from over 8.00.
<Mmm, there is/should be a small diurnal drop as this as well... usually early
afternoon equivalents...>
I just tested a few other parameters:
T = 80.4 F
Alk = 7.3 dKH
Ca = 380ppm
SG = 1.025
Top-off water has pH of about 8.1.
Besides pumps, the only water equipment I have are a skimmer (EuroReef RS-80)
and a phosphate reactor running GFO phosphate media and poly-filters; I cut
circular pieces of poly-filter as padding for the top and bottom of the canister
holding the GFO.
Any ideas why I am having this daylight drop in pH?
Thanks,
Jason
<Could be the phosphate removing gear... could be the probe needs
recalibration... This reading, fluctuation should not be a problem though. Bob
Fenner>
|
High pH And Hair Algae –
11/06/07
Hi Eric R (who I have conversed with previously several times) and everyone
on the crew!
<<Hiya Kerstin!>>
As usual, I have researched your site and books first to see if I can find this
problem and a possible solution, but have not run across anything exactly like
it (it seems like a popular chant - I have looked, but I cannot find the exact
problem I have).
<<Mmm, indeed...and often there is not an “exact” replica of another’s
situation...at least not as they see/understand it. Yet still much useful info
to process/help with learning and understanding of the “goings on” within our
tanks. And often enough, purposeful research will reveal that what you thought
was wrong is not that way at all, but something entirely different...but enough
lecture for now [grin]>>
I apologize in advance for the length - but it seems to solve the problems,
emails are longer as a good description is provided.
<<Yes>>
I am writing for a friend of mine (honest!)
<<Uh-huh...okay [grin]>>
who also has a 29-gallon Reef tank, but with a hair algae problem that isn't
going away. We are trying to figure out how to solve this problem, and so would
like to describe the tank and see what inputs you have.
<<I’m happy to proffer my opinion>>
She also has Aiptasia, but she knows what to do to get rid of them; she is
working on that slowly, and purchased 2 peppermint shrimp to help.
<<Don’t be too surprised if the shrimp “don’t” help much re the Aiptasia. Better
to depend on manual means (injection with lemon juice/Kalkwasser/etc.) of
ridding this pest>>
However, the hair algae just isn’t going away...any ideas based on the
descriptions below?
<<Let’s see...>>
Fish - In the past 2 months she has had several of her fish die (a yellow tang,
a "pajama fish", and a goby), and she has taken the clown (became too
territorial and was killing her torch coral) back to the LFS until this problem
is resolved.
<<The fish dying are a clue something is not right with the environment/water
chemistry...and do be aware, this tank is way too small for ANY Tang species>>
She is down to having a lawnmower blenny (got it to help with the hair algae,
based on the LFS recommendation), an urchin,
<<You don’t state the species, but Urchins rarely help with hair algae problems
in my experience...and again due to the size of the tank, this animal will
likely starve to death>>
a blue starfish,
<<Mmm, a Linckia species I imagine...another “doomed” animal in this, and most
all, captive systems. Kerstin...You need to talk to your friend about
“researching before buying”...will save her AND her livestock in the long-term>>
2 peppermint shrimp, and a small crew of snails (mostly Astrea, some Nassarius).
Corals - Her corals all seem to be happier since the hair algae problem began -
does that indicate there's just too much in the way of nutrients in the water,
and that's what everyone is feeding on?
<<Possibly (where’s the water tests?)... Most “corals” do benefit from the
presence of some nitrate and phosphate in the water>>
She has polyps (similar in look to brown zooanthids),
<<Can be toxic, especially in small systems such as this. The use of chemical
filtration (carbon/Ploy-Filter) is highly recommended. Use of these media
can/will also help with the algae problem>>
several burgundy mushrooms,
<<Another very noxious creature>>
a disk coral (Fungia - has almost doubled in size in daytime inflation since the
algae problem began), a small organ pipe coral (limping along),
<<Mmm, yes...likely being poisoned by the Zoanthids/Mushrooms>>
a small torch coral (recovering from the clown),
<<This coral will need room/cleared terrain around it...very aggressive>>
an Acropora-style with a crab in it (not doing better or worse), a lovely
burgundy sponge,
<<This can be a big problem if it dies...many toxins released. There are some
photosynthetic species that can fare well in reef systems, but...>>
a white flower anemone (originally for the clown, although he never lived in it
- preferred the torch coral)
<<Not surprising, likely Epicystis crucifer, an Atlantic species...and thus
quite foreign to the clownfish...and possibly even a danger re>>
and a lovely feather duster colony (also propagating, spreading to other rocks).
Hardware - She has a Current-USA Orbit light (she replaced her bulbs within the
last 3 months, but reduced the light cycle time some),
<<Reducing lighting duration has little effect on hair algae in my
opinion...unless reduced to the point it becomes deleterious to the other
photosynthetic organisms in the tank. Best to keep the lighting at 10-14 hours
per day and use other methods/determine the cause of the algae problem>>
runs a small AquaClear filter on the back for being able to run a small charcoal
bag (was being used all the time, currently usage is being reduced),
<<I would step-up the use of chemical filtrants>>
is running two powerheads in the tank for extra circulation, and uses a SeaClone
skimmer (she will purchase my AquaC Remora HOT in about 2 weeks when I upgrade
my tank).
<<This upgrade may well “make all the difference” here>>
Tank details/what we have done:
1. Tested water sample (which had sat about 2 hours) Thursday night - Nitrates,
nitrites, and ammonia were 0,
<<The algae is likely removing these faster than they can be tested>>
water sample temp. was close to 70,
<This last is meaningless since the sample “sat about”>>
pH was (I thought) an amazingly high 8.8
<<Yikes, indeed!>>
(Aquarium Pharmaceuticals test kit),
<<Hmm...I suggest you retest with a new/different test kit to confirm>>
don't know alkalinity & calcium (didn't think to test for them).
<<Is necessary/all part of the overall picture>>
2. She did one 5-gallon water change Saturday morning (Instant Ocean water in
buffered RO/DI water, bubbled 24 hrs. after salt was mixed in).
<<A good start>>
3. As of today (Monday), after running full lights for close to 5 hours, test
results were: Specific Gravity ranges from 1.024-1.026,
<<”Range?”...why the fluctuation? This should be more stable over this 5-hour
period>>
nitrates, nitrites, and ammonia again 0, temp. runs at 81, pH was a more normal
8.2 (same Aquarium Pharmaceuticals test kit),
<<Likely inaccurate/old...I would consider a different/better brand
(Seachem/Salifert)>>
alkalinity was off the scale (both the Salifert and Red Sea test kits),
Phosphate (Aquarium Pharmaceuticals test kit) is 0.5,
<<If accurate, this is much too high (should be 0.02 or less>>
& Calcium was 400 (she says she generally doesn't have to add much in the way of
calcium to her tank - stays pretty level). The RO/DI water originally had an
alkalinity that was low - we added 1/2 tsp. Seachem Reef Buffer, and brought the
alkalinity to a level of about 8.3 dKH. She is not over feeding her corals (no
more than 3 feedings per week with a variety alternating between frozen shrimp,
some homemade food (based on Eric Borneman's formula), Fiji Gold, and some Kent
Marine ZooPlex)
<<I would not use this last product, can be likened to
pollution-in-a-bottle...much too easily overused/abused...and of suspect
benefit, in my opinion>>
or fish (only the lawnmower blenny, so minimal feedings for it).
<<The Lawnmower Blenny will probably accept little supplemental feeding anyway.
But just to note, most all fishes should be fed well at least once a day...just
like harming corals by reducing the photoperiod, don’t punish the fishes by
reducing/eliminating feedings>>
She previously had a red slime algae problem, but it seems to be gone,
<<Probably just “out-competed” at the moment, may well return once the hair
algae starts to wane...but one problem at a time [grin]>>
and she now has the hair algae and Aiptasia.
<<Many hobbyists may not realize, but Aiptasia are wonderful absorption feeders
(can prosper quite well in “un-lit” sumps with little to no particulate
feedings) and are probably loving the organic load (I suspect) in this tank>>
The lawnmower blenny likes to nip at the hair algae.
<<But is not the cure here>>
Just recently she had 2 strands of what looks like Caulerpa grow - but they seem
to have few leaves, where the blenny has nibbled on it.
<<Probably not Caulerpa then (quite noxious to most “grazers”)>>
Tonight we also saw some small leaves of dark purple algae begin to form, as
well as four bubbles of bubble algae.
<<She has quite the little “ vegetable garden” going there, doesn’t she...>>
In general the blenny doesn't seem to be making any inroads on the hair algae
<<Indeed... As stated, not a solution/remedy...though this “bio-control” can be
helpful once the “cause” of this problem is found and rectified>>
- and she only got this blenny when she developed the algae problem. Our ideas,
based on my reading of major amounts of FAQs on your site are:
- We're thinking 5 gallon water changes every 2-3 days for a few weeks. Should
that help?
<<Yes, as long as the source water is not the problem. Do test this...perhaps
the RO/DI unit is in need of maintenance/parts replacement>>
- I figure the new skimmer won't hurt - having upgraded recently from the
SeaClone to the AquaC, I know.
<<Will be a huge benefit...in my estimation>>
- Since adding the buffer to the RO/DI water first and then mixing in Instant
Ocean salt results in a high alkalinity level (matches the tank), should we
maybe mix the salt in first and then add buffer if it still needed?
<<Not sure I get what you’re trying to say here... If the Alkalinity matches the
tank (assuming proper levels) “after” the salt is mixed with the buffered water
then this is fine...but...buffering after the salt is mixed is okay too. The
important thing is to test/experiment to determine the correct amount of buffer
to preclude overdosing and precipitating Earth elements from the mixed
solution>>
- Would adding water that is slightly lower in alkalinity help lower the
alkalinity in the tank?
<<If this is a problem, yes>>
Or is there another way to lower alkalinity?
<<Water changes are your best method for regaining “balance”>>
- Would high alkalinity cause the hair algae?
<<No...it is thought that keeping Alkalinity and pH at the high end of the scale
will actually help with eliminating problem alga>>
- Or do we need to try to lower the phosphates?
<<Most definitely...is a big factor here>>
- Or will they get lower by doing the repeated water changes?
<<Will initially...but you need also to determine/correct the source of the
phosphate>>
Thanks again for all your great help. We are clueless at this point, and would
love any input you can provide. The hair algae has been a problem for several
months now, and she is getting disgusted with her tank for it not wanting to go
away - and that would be a shame to have happen.
<<There will not likely be a rapid reversal...this process will require
diligence and determination. My recommendations at this point are... Stop the
use of any “bottled” foods (e.g. – the Kent product, etc.)... increase the use
of carbon and add a small canister filter with an Iron-based Phosphate remover
or cut up Poly-Filter pads... if possible, add a small vegetable refugium to
compete with the nuisance algae and provide additional water volume (among other
benefits)... Maximize the use of that new AquaC skimmer... And check the
effluent from the RO/DI unit to make sure it is still doing its job>>
BTW, I am continuously amazed at how many variations on the same theme you get
for questions, and how patiently you answer most of them.
<<Mmm, yes...every tank is different...though much of the investigation process
and solutions provided re can be applied “across the board”>>
Thanks in advance in case I have missed anything in your pages that addresses
this issue.
Kerstin:-)
<<No worries, just keep reading/researching... And let me know if we need to
discuss any of this further. Eric Russell>>
Re: High pH And Hair Algae –
11/08/07
Hi Eric!
<<Hey Kerstin!>>
Thanks for the quick reply
<<Quite welcome
...we will work on incorporating your suggestions.
<<I do think they will help>>
I have tried to answer some of the questions - although not necessarily in the
order asked...and of course it sometimes prompted more questions (seems to be a
never-ending cycle...you learn more, so you get new questions to supplement the
new knowledge, and so on).
<<Indeed>>
Re the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals test kit - I had an older test kit (about 2-1/2
yrs. old) and a new one, and she had one in-between those two in age - all three
gave us the same values.
<<Still...I would try a different brand/better kits...and seriously consider an
electronic meter for measuring pH>>
I am working on getting the Salifert test kits for Ammonia, Nitrate, Nitrite,
and Phosphates...we'll see how that helps (should be end of this week/ beginning
of next week).
<<Ah...excellent>>
At that point we'll test the 2 sources of RO water she uses again - one is from
the LFS (who gets her most of her water), recently also some from me (and I will
test it just to make sure it doesn't affect my tank's chemistry as well).
Hopefully that's not the root - then again, that might be easier than finding
other sources, I have the feeling.
<<Mmm yes, is a long shot admittedly...but still worth checking>>
I had mentioned that she previously had a red slime algae problem -
interestingly enough, at the same time I had one (and we didn't share anything
from our tanks right before)...so can algae problems be cyclical or weather
related?
<<Not so much in an enclosed system...is most assuredly iatrogenic>>
However, I had the AquaC and have my problem almost resolved, while hers became
a hair algae problem.
<<Thus the benefit of a “quality” skimmer>>
Now I just need to make sure I don't transfer my slime algae to the new tank (I
hope to move everything next week, once my school's Fall Festival is over...I
think I will have my life back! – ha-ha I am PTO President, so I don't think
that will happen).
<<Ah yes, I served a couple years on the board (the last as President) of my
local reef club (currently resisting nominations to do again)...is amazing how
time/energy consuming arranging monthly meetings/functions can be at times>>
But once I move my tank's inhabitants, should I run my skimmer with a
vinegar-water
solution to clear it out before selling it to her (I have a Tunze 9010 for my
new tank)?
<<This should be fine. You could even use a mild bleach solution (a cup of
non-deodorized bleach in a gallon of water) to clean the skimmer, and then give
it a short soak in a container of fresh water treated with aquarium “chlorine
remover”>>
And should she do that with her SeaClone, so I don't get her algae problem in my
29?
<<Can’t hurt>>
(I plan on selling my current 29 as a ready-to-go reef system...just not with
the good skimmer on it).
<<I see>>
Re Specific Gravity - I think the swing in measurements is over a course of days
–
<<Ah...okay>>
Monday it measured 1.024, which is actually where it usually runs - with a few
deviations before adding fresh water of 1.025...interestingly enough, my tank
usually stays at 1.026 - can that be because I have more corals than she does?
<<No...you likely have a more regular “top-off” regimen>>
Re When to add the buffer - I basically assume it doesn't matter if we add the
buffer before or after we have mixed up and bubbled the fresh saltwater?
<<Not really, in my opinion... And adding “after” if needed, may be the better
approach for the uninitiated>>
My RO water runs low on alkalinity and pH,
<<As it should>>
but her current batch of Instant Ocean salt don't require the buffer to be added
- they raise both pH and alkalinity to a good point, whereas buffering it first
brings the alkalinity to a dKH of 16 or higher (Salifert and Red Sea test kits).
<<Indeed...this is too high>>
So having a high alkalinity and high pH are not all bad - they may help combat
the algae problem?
<<Not “high” per se...but rather on the “high end” of the acceptable scale (e.g.
– dKH 12, pH 8.4)>>
But will they come back down after the algae is gone,
<<Not as a result of this, no>>
or will we have to work on doing that ourselves?
<<As long as Calcium levels are not “maxed” as well, the readings I have
outlined can be maintained indefinitely without harm>>
Or will having the skimmer help bring it down?
<<Not directly>>
Finally, I had a brainstorm this morning.
<<Oh?>>
We had discussed that she needed to add some sand to her DSB again - if it is
getting low (close to or below 3 inches for the 29 gallon tank) could that be
prompting some of the algae growth (since DSBs function in the NNR process)?
<<If the substrate is too coarse/trapping detritus and/or water flow is
deficient...certainly>>
And I would assume that removing the algae off the sand by hand will reduce the
sand level even more, so by adding a little bit of sand every few days until the
level is higher again, it should help?
<<Yes...about a half-inch or so at a time is fine>>
Well, I have once again been absolutely long-winded - I do apologize (and yes, I
talk lots too, so it's not just my writing).
<<Ha! No need to apologize my friend>>
We will try your suggestions - will write back to let you know what's going on,
and if we need more help.
<<I look forward to further exchanges>>
Thanks tremendously for all your inputs - always fun chatting with you,
Kerstin:-)
<<Is my pleasure to assist. Eric Russell>>
R2: High pH And Hair
Algae – 11/17/07
Hi there again!
<<Hello Kerstin>>
Well, I hope we're making progress on her tank...I want to keep you
updated, and I want to ask some questions as well.
<<Cool…okay>>
I think I may have figured out where the phosphates come from - tell me
if you think I might be right.
<<Alrighty>>
I have made several batches of coral/reef food, using Eric Bornemann's
recipe as a base. Included with the fresh seafood and ground up flake
food and other assorted stuff are also frozen Mysis shrimps, daphnia,
etc...all aquarium packs.
<<Okay>>
If I am supposed to rinse them before feeding them on an individual cube
basis to get rid of the packaged water (I read it's a good source of
phosphates), and I did not even thaw them before integrating them into
the new mixture, then could that be the source of the phosphates?
<<Is probable, yes>>
Just a thought, because I can't see where else they might come from.
<<Let’s test and see to be sure, shall we? Thaw a chunk of the food
preparation in a small container of tank water (just like you do when
you feed) and then test that water for Phosphate. If there’s a chance a
chance the tank water will skew the test, then test “before and after”
adding the food stuff>>
re the new skimmer - she started running my AquaC skimmer –
<<Excellent!>>
collected 1/2 of a cup of "guck" the first night alone...she is
absolutely happy that it's pulling this stuff out.
<<Is helping…that is a certainty>>
Between that, having a Poly-Filter pad in her little AquaClear filter,
and the fact that she pulled quite a bit of the hair algae wherever she
could, we'll see how her tank does...she really appreciates all the
suggestions and is happier about her tank already.
<<Very good to know>>
Although, interestingly enough, when she tested her water in the evening
after lights had been on all day (has done 3 5-gallon water changes in
the last week), her pH is still running 8.8 - but it is staying stable,
so is it something to worry about, or will it drop as the skimmer
removes stuff from the water (don't know how that would happen)?
<<The skimmer is not going to drop her pH…and yes, this reading if
accurate is too high/worrisome. I seem to recall you stated before that
you have validated this reading with more than one brand of test kit…if
not please do so. Else…it is important to find and remedy the
source/reason for this high pH reading (source water is prefiltered,
yes?). Do revalidate the salt mix used…and stop adding any buffers if
using these. And do make sure there isn’t an unusual item/tank
decoration that has been added to the tank that may be leaching/causing
this spike in pH>>
Thanks again for all your tremendous help, and we'll let you know what
happens.
<<Happy to assist…please do fix/let me know how things progress re the
pH issue>>
One positive thing
<<Hey…I counted more than one! [grin]>>
- I gave her a copy of CMA, and am loaning her fish books - she is going
to research more on her new tank inhabitants once this problem is
solved, since she has already decided to return the lawnmower blenny to
the LFS to trade against something else.
<<Very good…and do lead her here/to this site and teach her how to do
keyword searches using the Google search tool>>
Thanks, and I hope you're having a lovely weekend,
Kerstin:-)
<<Weekends are “always” good, mate. Eric Russell>> |
My Tank Is Going To Put Me In An Asylum...
Yikes! pH anomalies... large system, DSB maint. 10/2/07
Cheers guys, thanks for everything you do!
<Welcome>
Here's my question: I have a large system (1000 gallons), rock has been
established for years (part of a tank move), when setting up the system 3 months
ago I started to run into psychotic Ph issues, I thought it was CO2 (air
conditioning induced), my reactor was tuned in and everything, I finally gave
up, removed my $800 Deltec reactor, replaced it with a dual chamber model I
built from $40 worth of Lowe's parts and boom, no ph issues (I found out later
other people have had issues with Rowalith as well).
<Yes>
Anyway, I have several DSBs (my prop tanks have light coating of oolitic sand),
and I planned on using Nassarius but IDIOT me forgot to get them as I was
distracted by the ph issue. In the end all my param.s check out, no trates, no
phosphate (haven't checked silicate yet but I use DI), mg 1250, Alk 10.5 dKH, ca
425, and I drip Kalk. All of my SPS has great polyp extension but they aren't
coloring to the level I know that they can achieve (they lost color from the ph
issues and stress). Everybody was dipped in TMPCC and there are no pests to
speak of. I have a good amount of snails (true Vibex, Trochus, Mithrax crabs) on
the way.
<Watch these last... I would exclude Mithraculus here>
I noticed some of the sand has a black layer below the top layer, the question
is I ASSUME (we all know what happens when we assume that's why I am asking you
guys) that once the clean up crew is in it should allieve and ultimately fix the
DSBs and light sanded beds, and that I should not move to replace the sand,
correct?
<If so, only a bit at a time, any given day... and "gingerly"... best to take
that part of the system off line... dump, rinse, even bleach, FW rinse, air-dry
that batch of sand... replace it some days later...>
I don't see hydrogen sulfide bubbles yet.
<You may not... and yet this could be a/the source of pH anomaly, worse
troubles...>
I am also going to start monitoring ORP and from there will consider ozone.
<I would... For a system of this size, Ozone... and a dryer in conjunction would
definitely be on my have list>
Thanks again
Tom
<Bob Fenner>
My Instant Ocean Salt Raises
My pH To 8.8 – 11/13/07
First off, thank you for all the help you guys give to us ignorant
hobbyists.
<<Mmm, not “ignorant” I’m sure…>>
I'm very new to the hobby and this is my first time writing a question, but I've
already spent countless hours on your site, and reading "The Conscientious
Aquarist."
<<Excellent>>
Great book by the way.
<<Much in agreement>>
Anyways, I inherited a VERY dirty 120g tank and took about 50% of the original
water (all the fish in it died after 1 hour of transport).
<<…!>>
It has a huge wet-dry trickle filter (already replaced bio-balls with live-rock
2 months ago), about 45 lbs live rock (plan on getting more), I added 1-
snowflake eel, 4- damsels, 1- arrow crab, 1- zebra hermit, 1- scarlet hermit,
about 10- blue-legged hermits, and about 6- turbo snails (used to be a lot more
but they've been dying off. I'm assuming it’s due to my nitrate issue).
<<Oh?>>
Ammonia - 0, nitrite - 0, nitrate - 80 (gone down recently from over 160!),
<<Yeeikes!>>
pH 8.8,
<<Too high as you know, do get this down to about 8.4>>
Phosphates- 1.0,
<<Way too high… Everything needs Phosphate to survive, but you should strive to
keep this reading below 0.02ppm>>
Specific gravity- 1.022.
<<Natural saltwater levels are best…1.025/1.026>>
Despite the levels, all the fish seem to be doing fine (except for the snails
R.I.P.).
<<Maybe not for the long term…but then maybe these readings are not as they
seem…do verify them/the efficacy of your test kits>>
I just bought a 5-stage RO/DI that will cure my phosphate problem so my only
problems now are nitrates and pH. I age the water in 3 separate closed 6g tubs
each with their own airstone for 24 hours. The pH at this time is 7.4 (nitrates
0). I then add 3 cups of Instant Ocean and after another 24 hours the pH is at
8.8!
<<Troubling…assuming the tester is accurate, something is terribly wrong here. I
will also state that after about 3 decades of use, I recently changed from using
Instant Ocean salts due to troubles with the last dozen or so buckets I’ve
purchased>>
I have done multiple tests and always the same.
<<I see…with new kits, and of different brands?>>
Is this normal for synthetic salts?
<<Not in my experience and not with this brand>>
Should I use an acid buffer for all my change water and if so what kind?
<<I wouldn’t… If this is truly a characteristic of the salt mix, I would
consider a change…and my recommendation for a switch is the Seachem brand of
artificial sea salts>>
For my nitrate problem I've added a ton of Denitrate chemical media, I do a
little more than a 15% bi-monthly water change, and I have a large hang-on
turbojet Berlin skimmer. Am I doing anything wrong?
<<Until the nitrates are brought down I would increase the water changes to
bi-weekly. I would also recommend a better/more efficient skimmer>>
Suggestions to better my set-up?
<<Along with what I’ve already stated, the addition of a refugium with a DSB and
Chaetomorpha macroalgae would be beneficial…but you also need to determine the
source of the Nitrates. You state you’ve just acquired an RO/DI unit which
should help here as well if the Nitrates are coming from your source water (have
you tested this?). I would also add as small canister filter with cut-up
Poly-Filter in it>>
I apologize for the length.
<<Not a problem>>
I just want the best for my fish.
<<Please do read here and among the associated links at the top of the pages:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/setup/filtration/marineFiltr.htm >>
Thank you so much for the help!
-Phil
<<Happy to assist. EricR>>
pH of top-off water 9/23/07
Good morning all,
<Kim>
As always, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with all of us out here
on the learning curve of this hobby. I have been struggling with maintaining the
PH level of my top off water. I have attached the information that I have found
on WWM below for reference/background, as this person had the exact same problem
I am experiencing.
<Okay>
I keep about eight gallons of top off at a time right now. Recently I purchased
a RO/DI unit, and at the same time I switched from using Kent Marine Buffer over
to SeaChem Marine Buffer. Since then I have not been able to keep the PH up in
the Top off water. After researching here, I thought that maybe the powerhead I
have in the bucket is not strong enough.
<Mmm, shouldn't matter>
I upped it to a Maxijet 1200, and it hasn't helped at all. I aerate the water
with the powerhead, and keep it heated as well.
<Good>
I also keep a cover on the bucket. If I buffer it to proper PH at night, the
next day it is consistently back down below the PH scale.
<May need to leave the top off...>
Do you have any other suggestions as to what could be wrong? I'm wondering if
the process works such that when you add the buffer and test an hour or so
later, the test should be off the charts, but settle back the appropriate level
the following day?
<Usually so, yes>
Presently I'm only adding enough buffer to bring it up to the 8.2ish range
within an hour or so.
As an aside, like the other inquirer, I live in an older home, so it is not
super-well insulated.
<Actually better most times for air exchange...>
Thank you for your time.
Regards,
Kim in Boston
<I would first try leaving the mixing container top ajar for a day... Next I
would try adding a teaspoon or two per five gallons of simple baking soda
(Sodium Bicarbonate) to see if this moves the pH. Please do re-contact me/us re.
Bob Fenner>
High pH 9/20/07
Hello Helpful People,
<Hello Jazmine>
I have a major concern regarding my current pH. When I tested last night around
7PM it was 8.51. Around 11PM it dropped down to 8.45. This morning at 6:30AM it
was 8.37. I tested it at 5:30P this evening and it has increased to 8.61. I
honestly cant figure out what is causing the increase. I recently lost (2)
Emerald crabs & (1) Sally Lightfoot crab. I wonder if the loss is due to my high
PH levels all of my other parameters appear to be stable i.e. dKH 8.3, Calcium
360 ppm, Nitrate 5 ppm, Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, Phosphates .5 ppm, Salinity
1.023, & temp 78.6. I performed a 30 gal water change on 9/16 which consisted of
distilled water & Instant Ocean salt. Part of my regular routine is to dose 12
drops of iodine nightly. The only thing I did differently on 9/16 was to dose 1
tsp of Kent's Trace Elements (the directions call for 1 tsp per 50 gallons).
I have a 90 gal tank with a 20 gal sump. My fish & corals seem to be ok, for the
moment. If the PH continues to increase, I'm not sure how my tank will fair.
Please let me know what you believe is causing the increase, and what if
anything can be done to correct it.
Your guidance as always is appreciated.
<Mmm, a pH of what you are reading is not extremely high and would not cause the
death of your crabs. You may have an unknown predator in the tank that caused
the demise. On another note, large Sally's can and will attack other
invertebrates and small fish, and may have been the reason for the Emerald's
loss. I would stop dosing iodine for a while and if you are using Lugol's
solution, 12 drops per night is way too much. Lugol's is normally dispensed at
one drop per 10 gallons weekly. I'd also re-read the instructions on your iodine
supplement (if not using Lugol's) thinking you are overdosing here. Iodine is
not one of those supplements where more is better, quite the reverse. As for
your three digit pH readings, I assume you are using an electronic device to
measure pH. You may want to recalibrate the unit using a pH calibration fluid.
Based on the info you provided, I'd be very surprised if your pH was actually
that high.
James (Salty Dog)>
Jazmine
Re: High pH 9/23/07
Hi Salty,
<Hello Jazmine>
Thanks for allaying my fears that the high PH killed my critters.
<You're welcome.>
I thought about what you said in relation to an unknown predator. The only thing
in my tank large enough to kill one of my crabs is a 6 inch Engineer Goby.
Should I be concerned about the Goby?
<No.>
I have a Hanna digital pH monitor, which I recently calibrated. I am going to
take a water sample to my LFS and ask them to test the pH. In addition I only
used Kent's Iodine.
<Jazmine, one thing to keep in mind is that digital pH testers in this price
range are not dead accurate. If you bought the model pHep4, it's accuracy is +/-
.1, which means your pH could read .85 higher or lower. The model pHep5 is a
more accurate unit with an
accuracy of +/- .01 which could give you a drift of .085 either way. These
numbers would be based on a known sample of 8.5pH.>
Thanks,
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Jazmine
Depressed pH...Air-Conditioning And CO2 –
09/07/07
Guys, my system is RACKING my brain.
<<Oh?>>
I have in total a 500 gallon system (between tanks, sump, all that good stuff).
Anyway, I can’t get pH above 8.0 naturally (this with dripping Kalk 24 hrs a
day, pH drops to 7.8 at night), but when I take a sample outside, and put an
airstone in it, it rises to 8.3 in an hour.
<<Mmm...a CO2 issue...>>
I have a display located in the house, the sump is in the basement, and two more
large tanks in another room in the house. I live in VA and it gets hotter than
Hades so I have two window units in addition to central air (it’s an old house).
<<I see>>
I have read that air conditioners put off CO2,
<<Yes...but ”indirectly”... If I understand what I have read, the
air-conditioning units do not produce CO2 themselves, but rather they
contributes to the production of this element through the burning of
fossil-fuels to make the electricity needed to run the air-conditioners (some
estimated 3,400lbs a year per average American household)>>
so I am going to aerate (with pumps outside with lines running into the house)
to help.
<<This will help, but not for the reason you think. The problem is likely that
your house is sealed very tightly allowing CO2 from respiration and the use of
gas appliances to build to very high levels>>
It seems confined to the rooms with the window units as I have taken unused
saltwater samples that would normally be 8.3, put it in those rooms, left it for
a while, and the pH will drop to 8.0.
<<Interesting...try “cracking” a window and see what happens to the pH>>
In sum, I know aerating will help, a refugium which I just plumbed in will help,
I read on WetWebMedia carbon can help raise pH. Do you have any other
recommendations?
<<Mmm, not really...other than “piping-in” a source of fresh outside air near
the tank locations>>
What is it that causes air conditioners to put off CO2?
<<As stated, I don’t think these units do this directly>>
I told my wife it was because she talks too much and that was the cause of the
excess CO2 (LOL).
<<Hah! A brave (or foolish?) man indeed...though there is some truth here>>
Obviously this is a summer issue, and in another month or two I won’t have to
worry about it, but next year it will be back.
<<Are these tanks new/newly placed in this house? Is this a phenomenon you have
experienced before? I ask this because I would expect but for those times of the
year when you have windows open that you would experience the problem year-round
(i.e. – during the cold of winter when the house is again sealed up and the heat
is running)>>
I have tons of SPS, and they are healthy but not at peak color (pH will drop at
night to 7.8).
<<This may not be a function of the pH...7.8 is not all “that bad”...though you
want to make sure it doesn’t drop any lower>>
Thanks for any advice.
Tom
<<Happy to help. EricR>>
Re: PH/calcium-reactor – 06/08/07
Hi Bob Fenner,
<Mohamed>
I have read the articles below. If I understand it correctly a high calcium
level of 350 - 450 and KH of 8 - 12 would give you a high PH say 8.3.
<Mmm, somewhere this abouts. There are other factors... that could move this
higher or lower>
I use a mixture of sodium bicarbonate and sodium carbonate in = quantity to
maintain KH and calcium chloride for calcium (temporary).
<Mmm, yes... am hoping you've seen my cursory statements re the use of
CaCl2...>
My tank is more a holding tank until my new place will be ready within a
year, so the tank has a lot of is coral.
<I see>
Latest test my KH is 10 my calcium is 340 but my PH is still low, this
morning it was 7.88, what else could be the problem?
<Mmm, perhaps an abundance of carbon dioxide... See WWM re... the search
tool...>
My nutrient levels are undetectable. I do 5% water change a week.
Evaporated water, I use a Kalk reactor. I completed the calcium reactor
should be connected this weekend after I sort-out the leaks.
<Ah, good... this added piece of equipment will likely solve all these
issues in one throw>
The only level I am unsure of currently is magnesium waiting for a new test
kit.
Thanks
Mohamed
<Thank you for sharing your adventures, plans with me/us. Bob Fenner>
pH on 90 gal reef – 06/08/07
Hello All:
<Paul>
My question is concerning PH on my 90 gal 3 year old reef. After a recent
upgrade to an Aquacontroller III, I became aware of lower PH values than I
thought I was experiencing. My readings read between 7.81 during the evening
to 8.03 during the day. For the past several years I have used a GEO calcium
reactor which has kept my Ca and Alk within acceptable range. Since opening
the windows tends to raise the PH, I attribute the low PH to C02 buildup.
<Ahh! Yes... just have responded to another querier re this poss. issue>
Unfortunately, living in south Florida prohibits me from keeping the windows
open most of the time. Doing so tends to create an entirely different
problem (Heat!). I thought one way of raising my PH would be to install a
Nilsen reactor in addition to my current calcium reactor.
<Worth trying... though Kalk won't sustain a higher pH...>
I purchased a unit that is a good size. The manufacturer claims it can hold
up to 2 cups of Kalkwasser powder but I started off with 1 cup. I drip the
Kalk water as a steady drip during the evening after the lights are off. It
is controlled by both the Aquacontroller that only allows it to run in the
evening as well as float switch that shuts off a solenoid valve controlling
my RO replacement water. The RO water runs through the Nilsen Reactor before
entering my sump. This setup works great. I also have the Nilsen Reactor set
up to only mix (auto spin) during the daytime when the Reactor is not
dripping Kalk. All sounds great right? Here is my question. Although this
has improved my PH somewhat, I am rather surprised at the readings. It now
ranges between 7.91 at night to 8.02 during the day. I realize these numbers
are fine and the swing is less than before but I thought I would achieve
higher readings. I cannot drip 24/7 since even a slow drip would cause the
unit to shut off after the sump has reached its desired water level.
<Correct... but/and not likely advantageous to "drip" during light hours in
any case>
When I first set up the Nilsen reactor my PH went as high as 8.15 during the
day and my Alk went up as well. After 2 weeks the Alk has come down and the
PH high has also come down.
<Yes... do you understand what went, is going on here? The ready "boost" of
added hydroxide (from the Kalk)... can/will only "have adventures" for some
time... what are the rate-limiting factors here?>
My reef has been thriving well for 3 years. Some would say (including you I
am sure) that I should probably leave well enough alone.
<Oh! You are correct>
I was wondering if you had any recommendations on the PH.
<Mmm, yes... to ignore it here really... if you are of the mind to augment,
look into purposeful buffering products of DIY mixtures of carbonate/s,
bicarbonate/s, possibly a bit of Borate... "toss in a spoonful" of this once
a day... into the sump...>
My only thought was to use the full 2 cups of Kalk powder in the Nilsen
Reactor. Not sure if this would change much since I am sure the water going
into the Nilsen is saturated.
<Mmm, won't have to fill the unit as often...>
It may only change the length of time between required refills of Kalk
powder.
<Dang! I've gots to read ahead of keying!>
Thanks for your help. Paul, Boynton Beach, FL
<Oh! Have been diving (Splashdown Divers) off your coast... Mum in law has a
Winter place in Lauderdale Lakes... Really likely the patch reefs off your
coast... Many fine folks, restaurants, watering holes in your town...>
90 gal reef
sump/ refugium
(2) 175 10K MH
(2) 110 watt VHO super actinics
PH 7.91-8.02
Alk 10dkh
Ca 410
Nitrate 0
Phosphate 0
Magnesium 1370
Water changes 10 gal monthly
<I'd step this up... maybe twice a month... Bob Fenner> How Do I Raise The pH In A Very (3g) Small Reef Tank?...Water Changes! -
05/26/07
Hello,
<<Hi Joe>>
Let me start with saying you guys are great!
<<We do try...thanks!>>
I have a 3-gallon reef tank.
<<Mmm, tiny...>>
I bought a Pulsing Xenia and placed in my tank only to find it oh-boy so happy.
<<Cool!>>
So I researched this site and found out about pH plays a major part for Xenia.
<<Not just for Xenia mate...>>
So after testing I found my pH at 6.6.
<<Hmm...am doubtful...your tank would not survive this pH level. I very much
suggest you validate the efficacy of your test kit>>
I know way way way to low.
<<Indeed...but not likely an accurate reading>>
How can I raise this to 8.3 without using a supplement even if it can be done
with no supplement?
<<On such a small system as yours, maintaining "balance" is most easily and
effectively done with simple "water changes." Just make sure to prepare/age the
saltwater correctly>>
If not what supplement would you advise?
<<None, for this size tank>>
I dose with Kent alk buffer so my dKH is bout 10 or 11.
<<No need to use this...and doing so will probably cause more problems than
help. If your pH reading does by chance turn out to be accurate, then I would
look to the use/overuse of this product in this small tank as the culprit>>
Also I use Red Sea salt mix.
<<Better/more stable brands; in my opinion, to be had (IO, Tropic Marin,
Seachem)>>
Is it a must to aerate and if I can't would there be negatives to this?
<<Adequate water movement is all you need/is essential to the system>>
Thanks, Joe
<<First thing to do here Joe...validate that pH reading. Regards, EricR>>
pH, SW... – 5/4/07
Hello Crew. I have had this tank for five years now and I am about
to give it up.
<!?>
First some specs. 65 gallon tub with 20 gallon sump and 20 gallon
refugium. Total water volume minus sand and rock is probably around 85
gallons. Two closed loop pumps in main tank , one 1100gph, one 1200gph.
Return water via a mag nine through a chiller.
<Am about to give up on your msg... where's your spacing?>
Kent skimmer. Four actinics of which two are VHO 95 watt and two are 30
watt. Two 400 watt 20k halides which operate on a light rail placing
bulbs 3 inches above water.
<Too close>
Each halide burns 2 hours a day giving four hours of halide light. I feel
anymore just adds heat and spurs algae growth.
<... no>
A SeaSwirl handles the return to the tank along with another exit on the
opposite side of the tank.Two one inch exits
<Too small>
handle the overflow to the sumpand skim the surface water quite well.One
of the overflows diverts a small quantity of water to the refugium which
has a 18 watt daylight bulb illuminating it on reverse cycle
lighting.The water from the refugium is
passive carbon filtered before returning to the sump.The cheato
<Algae that goes crunch?>
and othe algaes show no aggresive growth which I think indicates my
nutrient levels are low. Nitrate levels are barely readable using a
Salifert kit.Phosphate unreadable using a Salifert kit.I do use
phosphate removing media.Tank inhabitants range from 4"acro colonies
such as millepora,samentosa, aspera,and the fast growing turaki to
encrusting montipora and frags of ten or so other sps. Large polyp types
include a bubble,two pagodas,four open brains, a tounge,a small acan,and
afist sized colony of galaxia.No soft coral except for various mushrooms
and zooanthids.Other than a Pseudochromis and mithrax crabs,cerith
snails that's it.While none show a lot of growth except for the turaki
they seem healthy.Most of the acros extend polyps during the dayand
really do at night.At nine or so at night one of the closed loops shuts
downfor two hours to give them a breather from the current.At this time
once a week I feed
the corals either DT oyster eggs or copepod/diatom mixture I scrape off
the side of the refugium using a brine shrimp net. This tank has always
had a low PH problem and over the years I have tried various buffers
which gave so so results.
<... for what reason/s?>
I tried kalkwasser drips and my latest venture with a controller
resulted in constant salinity dilution by the amount of kalk being dosed
to keep the Ph at 8.19 at night. It was only when it started diving to
7.8 that I became really worried.Im not obsessed with it,I would be
happy with an 8.2 all the time. I practise good husbandry with regular
2week 25% +/- water changes and vacumn most of the gook off the rocks
with a rig I made. I may have a dead spot in the sand on end of the tank
for it has gone darkish against the glass and may have sulfur intrusion
but I know of no way to verify it.What can I do to correct the low Ph at
night? I have too much invested to stress the inhabitants to the point
of going south. I should mention that
even during the light period in the day the Ph only rises to 8.07 or
8.1. Any help would be greatly greatly appreciated.
<You actually answer all the questions you posit... Please read here re
pH anomalies/fixes:
http://wetwebmedia.com/alkalinity.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>
Re: pH, SW 5/7/07
I apologize for offending with my spacing . I do not have a
computer at home so I only have a small time frame to use the one I have
access to.
<Mmm... the small "cost" of communicating (at least with us) is an
attempt at proper English... spellchecker...>
I am not sure I understand what you meant by answering my own post.
<Your insights are obvious... to me it seems you're quite aware of the
root/causes of the situation here>
This weekend I changed 20 gallons of water in the system. It was
prebuffered, oxygenated, before adding salt. The R.O. water was at 7.2
at the start and 8.3 at the end of the process.
Sunday, the high reading was 8.06. This morning the reading was
7.75. I verified the pinpoint the monitors reading with a test kit.
Calcium was 380 and alkalinity was 4.23. I have tried adjusting the
alkalinity up to no avail as to change in Ph.
<These are not necessarily linked events... there is unfortunate, easily
mis-understood cross-terminology at play here... Alkalinity and alkaline
are not the same...>
As expected, it only lowered calcium. I use Seachem products. Advantage
calcium, Reef builder and buffer. I also use Instant Ocean salt which I
noticed has been dropped from Marine Depot as a product. Should I change
to a different salt?
<I would not... but would continue reading... Do you understand what pH
is? You (and everyone) are faced with either adding to your system (more
carbonate, bicarbonates mostly... possibly other means like ozone)
ways/means of elevating pH... and/or reducing the numbers, degrees of
ways in which you are reducing this and alkaline reserve (pH buffering
capacity)... More soluble substrates, rock... less foods, feeding,
improved skimming, enhanced ReDox... Read on! Where you were referred
to. Bob Fenner>
Re: continuing ph saga, "Closed-up houses...." Houseplants are NOT your
friends! 5/10/07
Hi Bob,
I ran the indoor, outdoor air CO2 test with the following results.
Outdoor air raised the Ph reading from 8.0 to 8.3 in less than 30 minutes.
<Ah, yes...>
Using a fresh sample and indoor air the reading actually fell to 7.8. My wife
said she is not going to stop breathing so my tank will have a higher reading.
<Heeeee! That four percent of exhaled CO2 in a too-sealed living space is
deleterious...>
So I constructed a filtered outdoor air box to feed my skimmer.
The net gain was a low of 8.0(much improved over 7.76) to a day time high of
8.15. Calcium is 340 to 360.
<Bingo>
Total alkalinity is 5 meq. Carbonate alkalinity is 3.3 meq. Total alkalinity is
high because I dosed Kalkwasser in an effort to bump up Ph a bit. It did not
work.
<Mmm, no... not a permanent/real fix here>
I am considering building an aeration tank out of a spare 5
gallon I have. I could use a venturi powerhead using outside air in a effort to
blow off more carbon dioxide. Do you think this is the folly of more is better?
<Neat idea>
Using air gaps I could eliminate the overflow hazard. The flow could be adjusted
low enough to give some dwell time. Sounds like a skimmer, I know. Thanks for
your help so far.
<Thank you for sharing! BobF>
pH/Finger Leather, Coral Health 4/12/07
Hi there Crew,
<Hello Michelle>
First, let me thank you for the amazing website. I have spent many an hour
cruising your site. (I did look for answers before asking) : )
I started a 55 gal saltwater tank 5 weeks ago. I have 55 lbs LR, and live sand
40 lbs. I use R/O water w/Kent Marine Salt mix. I have a light w/high output
florescent, blue actinic's and a moon light setting.
<Knowing the wattage helps.>
My lighting cycle is 12 hrs on, 12 off. I do 5% water changes twice a week. My
filter is a Freedom Flow, rated to 90 gals, and I have two Maxi jets, a 900 &
1200.
My stats: <Parameters> Salinity: 1.024, PH: 8.0, Nitrates: 0, Nitrites: 0, GK:
<GK?.. dKH?> 11 and Ammonia: 0.
Tank inhabitants: 1 Turbo Snail, 1 Scarlet Shrimp, 3 Hermit Crabs, 4 Green
Chromis, 2 Percula Clowns (tank raised), 2 Fire Fish Gobies, 1 Starry Dragonet
and 1 Copper Banded Butterfly. Invertebrates: 1 Branching Hammer soft coral and
1 Finger Leather. Oh, and a bunch of Caulerpa. -Whew, I think that's it....
<Way too many fish for your 55. The Copper Band was not a good choice if you
are new at this. More than likely will no be around long.>
Sorry to be long winded, but I want you to have the info, hopefully I "said" it
right.
First question: My pH, I can't seem to get it higher than 8.0.
<Not surprising with your fish load.>
Now, I own Bob's book (awesome!!!) and I have been adding, for three weeks, 2
teaspoons of baking soda. Yet this doesn't seem to make a difference. I followed
his directions and add it straight to the filter and only at the water changes.
I read the FAQ on pH and I noticed that one guy said 1 teaspoon per gallon, but
I thought Bob said 1 teasp per 10 gals??? What should I do? I don't want to
harm any of my creatures.
<Really need to test dKH with a quality test kit, and then add a little of the
buffer daily (one tablespoon per 10 gallons will work), then test dKH the
following day. A good level to maintain is 8-12 dKH.>
Is 8.0 ok?
<Not bad, but you can help this matter by reducing your fish load.>
Second question: My Hammer is flourishing! Yay! But my Finger Leather is not.
The darn LFS said to put him in low flow, so I tried that, but he didn't seem to
like it. Plus I read on FAQ that he should be in high flow, so I moved him.
Finger guy is now right up on my the top of my rocks, about 6 - 7 inches from my
light. He's in a high flow area. He shed a bunch of mucous-y stuff, but his
polyps don't really come out.
<They do go through this process. If things are normal, it will re-bloom soon.>
Today I woke up and one "branch" is squished down, while the other is just kind
of dark. Some polyps out, but not many. The Finger is no where near the Hammer.
I add Iodine & Phyto-Plankton once a week. What am I doing wrong?
<The Copper Band is a notorious coral eater, surprised your LFS sold you this
knowing you have corals. He is most likely the bulk of the problem and
should be removed and taken back to the dealer or find a good home for it.>
BTW, the local LFS said I didn't need a heater. My tank temp runs about 80-82.
<Where do you live? What is your ambient night time temperature?>
I am actually a bit frustrated with the local LFS 's around here (there's three)
I get conflicting info from each of them, sometimes from employee's within the
store! LOL Ack!
<Working at a fish store does not necessarily mean he/she is a knowledgeable
person in this field.>
Oh also I had to say, no one told me about the possibility of getting Sea Stars
with your LR! They said to watch for other stuff. But I found one, how cool is
that!!!!! I love my tank and want to do the right thing. Thank you so much for
your help and advice! You guys rock!!
<Definitely more reading/learning for you Michelle.>
Sincerely,
<James (Salty Dog)>
Michelle
Help! Too high PH... Salt mix... 4/6/07
Hi Crew,
<Don>
I have been using your site for the 3 years that I have been keeping a reef tank
with fish and live rock. I have a 55 gallon tank, aqua c remora pro
<Proper nouns; capitalized>
skimmer, refugium w/macroalgae, lots of live rock, live sand with detritivores,
sand plenum, 150W MH x 2, T5 fluorescent 54 w x 2 actinic and white, magnum 350
canister filter w/floss. Live stock includes a host anemone, mushroom coral,
pulsating xenia, brain coral, finger leather coral, squamosa clam, feather
duster worms, polyps, 1 yellow tang, 1 powder brown tang,
<Hard to keep... particularly in such a small volume>
two damsel fish, one blue Linckia starfish, one mandarin fish, one lawnmower
blenny.
My water parameters are as follows: PH swings from 8.0 to 8.7 daily.
<Too much...>
It was even worse, until yesterday, when I did a large 20 gallon water change,
with Coralife sea salt,
<I'd switch brands>
RO water. My skimmer has been going wild, filling the cup with foam in around 10
hours. Nitrates 5, nitrites 0, DKH 9.9, Calcium 280
Mg/l. ALL OF MY ANIMALS ARE DECLINING RAPIDLY! What is going on?
<In the words taken from the classic "Wizard of Oz" (in my best Wicked Witch of
the West voice): "They're melting"... the pH is too high, too vacillating...
interfering chemically, biochemically...>
I have not seen this happen before. Please help me to correct this situation
ASAP.
<The salt mix... your procedure/s for mixing, storing it...>
Some more info to possibly help: my pulsating xenia have been declining for a
couple of weeks. I have been trying to identify why. I noticed that my calcium
was down to 200, and my DKH was up to 18 last week. I also noticed foam showing
up identical to what the skimmer produces, in small clumps floating around the
top of the aquarium at that time.
Please help ASAP!!!!
Thank you,
Don Laskey
<Please read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/marine/setup/index.htm
Scroll down... the area below the blue bar... on Water Issues... synthetics...
Bob Fenner>
High ph and Alk - 03/24/07
I am having some problems lowering my Alk and KH values
My tank is 3 years I do water changes 1 once a week about 10 to 15 %
All my calculations are within normal values
Cal 450
Mag 1250
Salt 31
Ph 8.3-8.4
Phos .05
nitrate is ok a bit on the high side then my liking but I understand that
considering I have a fish tank with 15 medium size in a 120 gallons tank, this
is ok but if you have any suggestions I sure would like to here them on this.
copper 0
KH/alkalinity is KH value is 16 dKH and my alkalinity in meg/l is 5.71.
<Mmm, a bit high... but going along with your biomineral and pH readings... not
a bad situation>
I also use a activated carbon bag in my sump is this good or bad for any of the
above test
<Not really bad in the least>
I use the Salifert test kit for all of my testing how do I bring this down
Alkalinity to a reasonable level thanks frank
<Well... first off, I would panic, nor do much to alter your present
situation... "if" real... I would test your test kit/s... esp. alkalinity... It
itself may be off... Otherwise, I would dilute the alkaline reserve by simple
regular water changes... using water of less alkalinity... See WWM:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/alkalinity.htm
and the linked files above... Bob Fenner>
Please HELP with super high PH :( – 03/17/07
Hi Guys,
<Hello. Brandon here.>
Before I start wailing about my problems, I would like to compliment you guys on
a "SPANKING NICE WEBSITE"!!
<Thank you.>
I remember searching high and low to check compatibility between multiple dwarf
angels in the same tank.
Thanks to you guys I have a flame and beauty both in the same 120 peacefully
(fatter by the day) living.
<Good to hear it.>
And am quiet proud of it :)))
Same with my bio balls raising nitrates.
One problem is; am unable to find a solution to my high PH.
It started nice at 8.4. I use tap water to top off. Have done it always without
problems.
Tap water ph is 8.4 even today.
The ph in my tank is 8.8 and even 8.9 sometime (lights on) and 8.6 to 8.7
(lights off).
Almost got a cardio when I saw it :)
Have read that some lights can affect electronic meters. Since I use a Hanna
electronic meter, I tried testing samples in a dark place also.
<Have you made sure that the meter is calibrated? It could be the calibration
solution as well. I would try out a liquid test kit first thing.>
Have tried all the stuff like soda, pH down, vinegar
<As I said I would make sure that the probe calibration solution is not bad or
something, and then I would try to recalibrate the probe, but the very first
thing to do is confirm that the pH is really off by using a liquid/other test
kit. If you use these substances before you do this, then you have a good
likely hood of causing a major pH crash.>
Nothing works for more than one night. Then alls back to 8.8 and 8.9
<Check with another test kit.>
Here are my tank details
Lights-
1 Osram 5200 K 150w MH on 7 hrs
1 German make 20K 150w MH on 7 hrs
3 AZOO tubes 40w (have almost stopped using them other than dusk n dawn
simulations) on 12 hrs
1 led lamp for moonlight
Circulation
1 Aquanic 3000L connected to SCWD
2 AZOO 2000L opp sides
1 return pump (1000L effective with 2.5 feet head)
Water parameters:
Nitrates < 10
Nitrite, ammonia are zero.
CA 400+ (fluctuates a bit sometimes) using Kalk in all night drip for 10-15
liters on sat n sun (this hardly raises PH more than 1 point)
KH 7-8 dKH
<This is a little low>
Often supplement Kent/AZOO MG+ and AZOO reef iodide
Filtration:
Skimmer connected to 2500L powerhead runs 24 hrs. It removes 30% cup level of
tea colored liquid daily.
50Kgs live rock and 100Kgs base rock (must be live now after 8 months)
Substrate is crushed coral
Fortnightly 20% (tank volume without sump) water change. (started from last 1
month)
Tank size and Livestock:
Glass 120G bowfront with 100L sump
1 coral beauty and 1 flame angel
3 damsels
4 perculas
<Watch these guys. As a rule two Clown Fish only.>
1 firefish
1 sea star
2 cleaner shrimps
5 polyps
5 mushrooms
2-3 snails
Few feather dusters
Hope that is not overloading.
<I might take out two of the Perculas.>
I also suspect my coralline *growth* is non existent due to this high PH.
The existing coralline on the live rocks is not dying thankfully (not growing
either).
Would be really, really kind of you to help me.
<Confirm that the probe is correct, and then move on from there.>
Many, many thanks in advance
<You are welcome, Brandon.>
Ranjith
Re: Please HELP with super high PH :( 3/21/07
Hi (Brandon),
<Hello again Ranjith.>
Thank you for the quick response.
<You are welcome.>
I checked like you said with another meter (of a fellow aquarist) that was
calibrated recently. The readings are the same.
<Hmmmm.>
It does not seem to be a calibration problem. Also, my nano reads correctly as
8.4 8.5 using the same meter.
<There is a possibility that the tank could be too clean, i.e the skimmer is
doing too good a job, as dissolved organics will usually lower the pH. I would
also say check the pH of the tap water that you are using. I would do a 10-20%
water change, and then turn off the skimmer for about two hours a day, to see if
that helps. I might also be advantageous to take a gander here,
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marphalk.htm.>
Any other suggestions?
<Yep. I listed them above.>
Thanks Again
<You are welcome, I hope that this is of some help. Brandon.>
Ranjith
Re: Please HELP with super high PH :( 3/21/07
Hiiii :))
<Hello again Ranjith.>
My skimmer's power head conked out and had not been able to take time to go and
get a replacement.
So it's been totally shut for the last 3 days. The PH has come DOWN to
8.5 8.6. in-spite of night long Kalk drip (1 drop every 4 seconds)
Kalk solution is 1 tablespoon of Kalk in 10 liters of tap water. Fresh tap water
(10 liters) is added daily for up to 2 weeks to the solution.
Then the settled substance is replaced with new Kalk.
<You are dosing too much. Please search WWM Re: Kalkwasser, Slurry Method,
calculating calcium usage.>
I also read through the article on PH. Quiet informative.
<Indeed.>
This is good news but brings up more questions
1. Just in 3 days of zero skimming, Is it normal for the PH to drop so sharply
(8.8 to 8.6) in spite of Kalk drip?
<This is adding DOC’s to the water. This is a small beneficial build up of
organic acids.>
2. If the tank is too clean, then why are nitrates at < 10ppm consistently ?
<This has to do with Nitrifying bacteria. As a byproduct of NO2 consumption,
they release NO3.>
3. Why do I still have good algae growth (green and red) (because of the nitrate
I guess?)
<Yes. This is a likely cause.>
4. Even after the CA is 400+ and good amount of MG and decent alk(7-8dkh),
coralline is still not growing fast (nor is it receding).
<Ca is a little high.>
I see spots of pink starting then the pink color vanishes in a day or 2 and only
white part remains.
<See above Ca being a little too high, as well as a lower Alk.>
Please do not mind me asking soo many questions. Am quiet new to this hobby and
it is difficult to get expert advise here so am coming up with many questions.
<This is good as I like to answer questions.>
And once again, thank you for helping out.
<No problem.>
Cheerssss
<Have a good day. Brandon>
Ranjith
Re: Please HELP with super high PH :( 3/21/07
Hi Brandon,
<Hello Ranjith.>
One last question.
<Sure thing.>
If the tank is too clean, then why are nitrates at < 10ppm
consistently?
<This has to do with Nitrifying bacteria. As a byproduct of NO2 consumption,
they release NO3.>
Question is, If the skimmer is too efficient, the DOC level left in the tank
must be negligible.
<Indeed.>
This should produce very less Ammonia and subsequently the NO2 levels must
remain bare minimum. The algae growth would finish off remaining NO3 making the
level of NO3 zero or very close to that.
<You do have fish don't you? DOC's do not in and of themselves cause NH3. When
these compounds are broken down NH3 is created. Your fish are the originating
source of your NH3. They release it during respiration, and when they urinate,
or defecate. This is what your bacteria are feeding off of. All that a skimmer
does, is remove solid/liquid organic mater before it has a chance to be broken
down into NH3 or in other words, before it can rot. The skimmer WILL NOT
remove NH3, NO2, or NO3. Notice the word protein in the name. This is what it
can collect, organic matter that would otherwise rot. Sometimes feces is a part
of this, but there is still NH3 released into the water. Same with
urine. While there is a certain amount of urine that is protein matter, there
is also ammonia, as well as other things. Unfortunate thing here, is that if
your skimmer is too good, then all of the organic compounds are removed. This
is bad because you want a little bit to break down into organic acids. This
tempers your pH.>
To sum up, the nitrates level must be related to the DOC’s in the water.
<I would agree if they were excessive, but they are not. Sometimes NO3 levels
have to do with the activity of bacteria inside a power filter. Basically the
NO3 levels seen get insanely high 40-120 ppm. I have heard of a person having
180ppm at one time though I am sure that this number was off. This is one of
the times that you can chalk up NO3 levels to DOC‘s. I would say that you are
just experiencing normal nitrification, and that the NO3 is mostly being broken
down to N. As far as your skimmer being out causing the level of NO3 to rise, I
would closely watch the NH3, and NO2 levels while you don‘t have a pump for the
skimmer. You have been keeping the tank so clean for so long, that you could
experience an Ammonia spike, sort of a mini cycle. So with that in mind please
do be careful.>
So, if the DOC’s were almost absent (too efficient skimming) then end
product of NO3 must also be less right?
<Not necessarily. See above. I will clarify, for the most part NO3 is the
byproduct of a group of nitrifying bacteria. These bacteria consume NO2 as part
of their metabolic process, and the end result is NO3. There is some NO2 in
your system, and these bacteria are consuming it. NO2 will not be picked up by
the skimmer. Just compound that could rot and eventually become NO2. This is
why the number is low and within acceptable ranges.>
One answer could be that when my PH went down, my nitrates went up (which I have
not checked being too happy over the PH drop) ??
<Not likely. The two are not related.>
Ps: How come you are awake at this time? It must be the middle of the night
there.
<I usually am up at this time. Brandon.>
Cheers
Ranjith
Post cycling pH jump – 03/15/07
Hi crew,
<George>
I've been reading your FAQs even before I started my setup, and can only say
thank you for all your efforts. I humbly admit while I have kept a simple
successful saltwater tank in my past for a few years, the one I am starting now
is beginning to humble me more so.
<One of the qualities I seek for myself in this involvement>
Brief overview: 75 gallon hex tank, 95 pounds partly cured live rock (from a
store my fellow reef nut has used for a decade) and 100 lbs live sand (Ocean
Direct by Carib sea), sump (which I've used until my 24x12x17 refugium came in).
Allowed it to cycle in tank and measured pH, refractive index kept at 1.23-1.24,
amm, nitrite, and nitrate daily. All went smoothly all along, not too much
debris. Used deionized tap water (large cartridge type system. no $ yet for an
RO sys). 2 weeks ago, all readings finally rested at 0, pH steady at 8.2-8.4,
sp. grav at 1.024.even nitrates, and almost simultaneously I began to see the
beginnings of the diatom bloom. Waited 5 more days to make sure readings stayed
low, an then ordered cleanup crew. consisting of 10 Nassarius, 10 Ceriths, 5
Turbos, some micro stars and mini brittles (about 120 total), a bottle of live
copepods and 2 scarlet cleaner shrimp as well as some rhodophyte and coin
Caulerpa; 2-3 cups Chaetomorpha in the fuge (Inland Aquatics, and Live Aquaria
source). At the same time I began setting up a small acclimation/QT tank
figuring by time that was done cycling I could start looking for fish. Again,
every single day I measured everything. and all parameters were in line. The
only negative seemed to be the diatoms starting to take off.
<Not necessarily harmful>
On the day all the inverts arrived, suddenly -i.e., within a 1 day period. the
pH had jumped to 8.8. I tested 3 times to be sure, tested the water I was using
to make up the salt mix (which by the way is Reef Crystals by Kent).
Immediately instituted a 30% water change, then began acclimation over 3-4 hrs
(used very very slow addition of 10% bag volume every 15 min or so).
All is still alive, but I can't stop the climbing pH. I've been employing a
stop gap measure of water changes and using pH down to slowly adjust (it's
sulfuric acid, not phosphate based). All the while Amm, Nitrite, Nitrate remain
zero. Any suggestions or clues or remedies? 100% water change?
<I would not fool with the pH here... I suspect this is an effect, perhaps
artifactual of the algae (Chaetomorpha) addition... At any length, the pH will
drift down of its own accord... with time, reductive events in the system. Don't
panic! Bob Fenner>
Your advice is greatly appreciated !
Re: Post cycling pH jump 3/15/07
Cheers Bob. I agree...I don't like altering acid-base chemistry by
additives except on occasion, and this was one. The pH bounce back suggested
something more.
<Yes>
I've now noted the pH is the AM after a few hrs in the darkness is ~8.2...and
after lights on a few hrs it presumably is climbing.
<Bingo>
Figured I should also do some testing of with/without aeration to see the
dynamics there. Seaclone skimmer has been running about 1 week also, producing
a fair but not great yield of skimmate (yes...this will be replaced by a more
efficient skimmer someday...maybe soon); thinking of adding airstone in sump
section to test buffering and gas exchange (indirectly). So I'll be wary of the
O2/CO2 issue and carbonate/bicarb chemistry going on...without use of additives,
I think I may be able to find a better balance.
<Time will tell>
Keep up the awesome & noble work. You're reaching a wider audience than any
classroom or publication could reach here!
George
<Ahh, the Net... what will come next? Something like "Star Trek"... and then?
BobF>
Pic, pH swings, turning ones system from supplements to a reactor
Thanks for honoring me with the pic of the day!!!! That's cool. I noticed
it while reading through all the new FAQ's. I'll take a pic of mine and
send it to you as well--the coloration is a little different, but
structurally it is identical. My secretary thought I had some kind of rare
disease the other day when I told her I had a Cirrhilabrus cyanopleura! Ha
ha.
<Hmm, maybe...>
I also had a thought on one of the FAQs. It's on there today--a very long
and desperate sounding message from RL. I noted that the pH swing on this
tank is 0.4 per day. Also, I noticed that their pH was actually HIGHER in
the morning than in the evening (reversed from what you'd normally see.)
Unless there was something dripping overnight that would raise the pH during
the darkness hours, what would cause this "reverse pH swing"?
<... A few things... for one... difficult to assess when people mean "first thing in AM"... as in, how long have their lights been on? Another possibility has to do with the types, amounts of marine macro-algae present... some "release" their buffering materials in the eve... elevating, stabilizing pH in the dark... Still another viable suggestion/explanation has to do with long-standing "supplement practices"... and "resuspension/solubilization" of materials... more and more to see the more one looks... Bob
Fenner>
James A. Deets
pH and hydrogen sulfide 2/5/07
Kris Jones wrote:
> Dear Crew,
> Yes, another pH question. I have read your archives and now have a window
open as a test to see if my low pH will come up. In trying to rule out all
possible sources of my problems, I'm coming to the experts. My tank's pH this
morning was 7.9, dKH 12.2, Ca 3.25 ppm,
<Mmm... the Calcium... likely needs a nudge of the decimal point. The rest are
okay actually>
> PO4 and NO3 in normal range. I'm wondering if my 2 refugiums with mud beds of
2-3 inches would be producing a build-up of hydrogen sulfide contributing to my
problems.
<Mmm... not likely, no. But this material does have reductive tendencies
otherwise>
One refugium has Caulerpa and two mangroves flourishing (getting too tall for
the tank)
<Take care that these don't break the container they're in...>
and the other
> only has Chaetomorpha growing. The substrate of my tank is aragonite with
continual turnover thanks to my sand-sifting stars and yellow head sleeper
gobies. I've ruled out CO2 as a culprit as my holding tank for my R/ODI water
is constantly aerated with a pH about 9.
<Mmm, I wouldn't be so fast here... do try just aerating some of the system
water outdoors for an hour or so...>
> Yesterday I started adding Tropic Marin's Bio-Magnesium. My LFS owner tested
my water as well, but added the Mg test and my Mg was beyond low.
<Out of proportion (3:1) with calcium I take you to mean>
His rationalization is that I can't keep my calcium levels up because of my low
Mg, hence my pH won't stay up either.
<Can be so>
Yes, I also dose with Kalkwasser. BTW my show tank is a 210 gallon FOWLR. I've
also been fighting hair algae for months. What are your thoughts on refugium
mud beds and pH imbalance?
<Can be a factor, as stated>
As always, many, many thanks for your help.
> Jeff
<Mmm, there are a few other possibilities as to cause, and relief here... And
have recently gone through, split-up the archived marine "pH and alkalinity"
FAQs... I'd give these a once-over. Otherwise, I would not be overly concerned
with the values you've presented, the steps you're taking for this FOWLR. Bob
Fenner>
Alkalinity and pH
I have a quick question about alkalinity. Last Wednesday I brought home an
Elegant Coral and a Open Brain Coral.
<both are placed on the sand bottom right? They must to survive... see
archives here at WWM>
By the weekend the Elegant Coral had developed brown jelly disease and infected
the open brain above it.
<above it suggests placement of at least on rock. Hmmm... free-living SPS
corals become stressed and abraded when polyps cycles cause wounds and tears on
live rock... leading to infection. May not have been your problem... could have
been shipping/handling if they were new at LFS. Still... you sound like a new
aquarist. Do consider that quarantine is necessary for all new fishes and corals
(4 weeks in a separate tank). This prevent s the spread of such infection s to
your whole tanks, saves lives and has many other benefits. Please visit the
WetWebMedia archives on this topic as well. Also... buy a good reference book
and read it to guide your purchases before bringing livestock home my friend>
I immediately sucked the disease off them and removed them from the tank. I
fresh water dipped them and tried them again. Of course too late, the next day I
removed them completely.
<indeed... it is highly contagious/virulent. Best treated in QT for any
chance of survival and more so to protect the rest of the tank>
Since then (Sunday) I have been fighting a low PH.
<not caused by the corals of course... if anything, the waning pH of the
system stressed the corals and was a catalyst>
About 7.8.
<Doh!>
I have been adding Kent PH Buffer. Today it is about 7.9.
The thing that scares me the most is my alkalinity is 16.32.
<holy cow!>
I checked twice yesterday which was over 18 and today it is 16.32 (DKH). What
can I do to lower this and raise the PH at the same time?
<dilution is the solution to pollution: water changes. And if your Ca is low
(under 375ppm here), use Kalkwasser to raise pH without raising Alk directly>
I haven't been adding any 2 part calcium additives at all. Just the Tropic Marin
Calcium.
<sounds like things have gotten out of kilter. Several large water changes
and then resume with Kalk/buffer or 2-part mix (but shake very well before every
dose... critical!)>
Thanks, Ian Roff
<best regards, Anthony>
Low Ph, High dKH
Hello, first time here and I have read and read on your sites, thanks for
all the information - really quite amazing what you have provided here, a
thousand thank yous. I have a question; first, my water parameters:
Ph: day 7.9, night 7.75
dKH: 16
Ca: 380
Mg: 1230
NH3: 0
N02: 0
N03: .5
Salinity: 1.024
I have a 24 gal.. nanocube with 7 corals, 1 anemone, 6 hermits, 2 snails, and no
fish. - 104W of CF - Water changes 25%/week
25 lbs. of CaribSea live aragonite
45 lbs. Fiji and Tonga live rock
2 power. heads (Rio 50 and MiniJet w/Hydor) in addition to the one that the
system comes with
The tank has been up for 7 weeks now and cycled in the first three weeks
My problem:
I cannot get the ph to 8.0, let alone 8.3, even with Kent buffer or Seachem
builder, however, I have had dKH off the charts (high)
I am using Salifert test kits and have tested them with LFS water to ensure they
are accurate . . . I am using an American Marine pinpoint Ph meter calibrated
just one week ago and have confirmed the low ph
<Yes... most due to the "break in" processes... the decomposition of a good deal
of your live rock life... the small volume, lack of a skimmer...>
Each time I use the reef builder or other buffer to increase ph, it goes up for
about 4 hours and then back down, however my dKH just keeps going up (1.5 ml or
1 1/2 plungers of reagent to turn color if you are familiar with Salifert test
kit making it anywhere from 16-24 dKH, guesstimate since I'm not sure if that's
how it works once you go through the first plunger)
<Is how it works>
I had been using Catalina water, so I did a 15 gal. water change with Tropic
Marine mixed at LFS to see if that would help.
<It will... in time>
No one at several LFS stores can figure this one out and I have tried to open up
the house thinking the CO2 in the house was too high and no effect . . . I was
going to get an air pump to start trying to oxygenate the tank more and see if
that helps . . . just thought I would ask for some help first . . . this has
been going on for 4 weeks now and is a real drag . . . corals still look good,
but I'm afraid they will start to decline in time given the low ph . . . and
fish or other helpful inverts, forget it.
<... this system has been up for seven weeks... with an anemone mixed in with
other stinging-celled life? Dangerous... in such a small volume>
I used to have a 60 gal but had to break it down when we moved, never had these
kinds of problems, making me realize that smaller tanks are more difficult to
monitor/maintain?
<Indeed they are>
HELP!
Thanks
Bill
<Due to the newness, the livestock listed, the small size of the system, I would
just continue nudging the water quality along with the TM water, careful
addition of just pH buffer (sans alkaline earth components)... likely something
with just sodium carbonate and bicarbonate (no calcium, magnesium)... go slow
here Bill... all could crash. Do add a skimmer if you haven't already... Bob
Fenner>
Water parameters out of whack
Hello Crew, how you guys doing today?
<Mighty fine, thanks>
Well I decided to go back into the aquarium hobby after being away for about a year and everything had being going well until I started having some problems with my PH.
This is what happened. I filled up my 380 gallon aquarium with some Oceanic salt and let it mix in for a week, then I added some crushed coral and 200+ lbs of Live Rock. I noticed that PH was low ~ 7.7, therefore I started adding super buffer
dKH and brought it up to around 8.2 but it started going back down therefore I kept adding Kent super buffer DKH until I had poured 2 pounds of Super Buffer DKH in a
week's time and my PH was still hovering around 8.0 - 8.1 . Believing that my PH monitor was off I tested the PH with anoth |