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Question regarding Steve Tyree's Sponge
Filtration Concept - 7/1/08
Dear Bob/WWM crew,
<SB in Bs>
I am very interested in integrating Steve Tyree's sponge filtration model in my
current aquarium. However, I consulted the opinions of several experts and they
all said that though sponges filter feed from the water, they excrete ammonia as
metabolic wastes, therefore contributing ammonia to the aquaria. They all agree
that algae is better choice for nutrient control in aquaria. What are your
opinions regarding this? Thanks.
Best regards,
SpongeBob in boxers
<Mmm, most all animals produce ammonia (or analogs urea, uric acid) to degrees
via amine catabolysis... Sponges don't make much, and there are (in well-enough)
arranged set-ups mechanisms for dealing with such... Of SteveT's many semi-novel
ideas the cryptic zone (low, no light, circulation) use of Poriferans is worth
investigating. Bob Fenner>
Sponges and
Water Quality... sys., sel. 3/19/08
I have a 55 gallon reef aquarium with only three small damsels
separated by live rock and a few soft corals. Water parameters are 0 ppm
ammonia, 0 ppm nitrite, 10-20 ppm nitrate, 8.2pH, 75F, and a KH of about
300 ppm. I have no protein skimmer for my tank, and I believe that may
be why my nitrate is pretty high.
<Would help...>
However, my corals are doing fine so I see no reason for a skimmer just
yet.
<There are many successful systems that do w/o>
I use 2 x 96W T5 lamps for the corals, and they are all about 7" from
the light source. This tank is just over a year old. I perform 10% water
change weekly and 50% monthly.
<I see>
I was wondering if adding a store bought non-photosynthetic sponge would
be possible for my setup. I have moderate water flow throughout the tank
with water flow being extreme around the power heads. I actually want a
more attractive ball or moon sponge now that I have seen a great deal of
sponge growth in my aquarium. I'm guessing the dissolved organic
compounds are plentiful. So far, one sponge has completely covered a
Tonga branch "live" rock (...) so that all I see is a yellow porous
crust instead of a multicolored rock (about 0.25 square feet of sponge).
I feed the sponges twice daily with plankton and I'm hoping they eat the
algae I scrape off the aquarium glass as well.
The reason I am asking is that after I read your sponge section, my
general impression about store bought sponges is that all of them will
die from starvation due to inadequate feeding or a lack of light (I do
not want a light dependent sponge).
<Many do... but not all. Most perish due to poor collection, holding and
shipping practices>
Will a ball sponge thrive or at least not die in my tank?
<Mmm, depends... what species?>
Will sponges lower my nitrate levels?
<They can>
Could you please list some species that are easier to care for?
<Is this not posted on WWM? Will look... Please read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/spongeselfaqs.htm>
And finally, are all blue sponges photosynthetic? My pet store has a few
blue ones tucked away under some live rock that seem to be doing quite
well so I am puzzled as whether the color blue = symbiotic algae.
<Mmm, no, not all are.>
Thank you for your time and consideration,
Sincerely,
Henry.
<Thank you for sharing. BobF>
Re: Sponges and Water Quality –
03/20/08
I'm going to guess on the species here since my store labels them
all by this nomenclature: color + shape + sponge. E.g. Orange Ball
Sponge. :) I think the species is Cinachyra sp.
<Mmm, can be done: http://www.google.com/search?q=Cinachyra+sp.+use+in+aquariums&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGIC>
After some more reading I have found that most of the food I feed is
actually only a minute part of a good diet for the sponge. Before I make
the purchase, I'll have to find a way to culture up some bacterial soup
for daily feedings. Thanks for your help.
<As with most Poriferans, do take care to avoid introducing air into the
colony... Bob Fenner> |
Sponge... Adding A Dried Tree Sponge To A
System... Not A Good Idea! – 09/14/07
Hi. Is it safe to put a dried Red-Orange branching sponge (Ptilocaulis sp)
to a saltwater tank for decor
purposes only? I have a 55 gal. FOWLR and I find it attractive to put one of
these together with my live
rocks. Thanks.
<No. This is not safe. These can be quite toxic when they die and can wipe out
your system. A dried dead one sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.>
Larry
<Cheers,
Mich>
Calyx aquarius (Fan Sponge) Requirements 1/23/07
We are trying to get information on the Fan Sponge ( calyx arcuarius)<aquarius>.
We would like to know the web site to get this information such as
the characteristics, description, main diet, habitat, location,
reproductive methods, picture, and bibliography.
Thank you for your help as we were in many different sites and unable to find
information.
<Not something that would live long under aquarium conditions. I know little or
nothing on the species except to say I know of no dealer who even sells
them. If Mr. Fenner is aware of any info, he may inject something here.
Continue Googling my friend.><<I concur with your statements, direction James.
RMF>>
Thanks.
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Gorgonia red / Ellisella sp. 11/21/06
Hi, WWM Crew
<Hi, Wikus. JustinN with you tonight.>
After burning my fingers, not doing proper homework before acquiring species for
my tank, I decided that reading and asking more is better than dead inhabitants.
<I agree wholeheartedly -- now if only we could get more people to think that
way...>
So after Googling for "Gorgonia red / Ellisella sp.", I still did not come up
with any useful information.
<Mmm, a Google search for Ellisella alone turned up a few results, albeit very
slim on information..>
Could you perhaps tell me it this species is suitable for home aquariums (6ft
std. with 2 x 150MH and 4 T5's, skimmer and sump filter). I mostly keep LPS and
softies.
<Very nice sounding setup. Have you considered the possibilities re an inline
refugium?>
Thank you,
Wikus
<I could be wrong here, but from what I gathered on the few pages that I did
find, this species is a zooplankton consuming species, not photosynthetic.
Non-photosynthetic Gorgonians tend to not fare well in home aquaria, where their
consumption demand simply cannot be met. Hope this helps you! -JustinN>
Sponges In My Sump For Filtration? - 01/19/06
Hello,
<<Howdy>>
I will be having a DSB in an unlit sump and wondered if there were any sponges I
could put in the sump to help filtration?
Thanks,
Ben
<<With few exceptions sponges don't usually fare well in our little captive
environments, and a large sponge gone "bad" can do real damage
(poisoning). You're best bet is to employ the encrusting and cryptic sponges
(Diplasatrella, Monanchora, Phorbas, Spirastrella) found on/in live rock. Place
a few pieces in the sump and those sponges for which the conditions are right
will develop and grow. Regards, EricR>>
Sponge Complacency - 12/13/05
Hello WWM:
<<Hello Frank>>
I always like to preface my letters by letting you know how much you have helped
me. While I know not to stick with one source for information, you guys have
definitely the ones I trust the most.
<<Thank you...tis nice to know, redeeming to hear.>>
I also learned early on (at the expense of a Rainford Goby) to do
extensive research into any piece of livestock before I purchased it.
<<Ah...very good...>>
However, the thought of doing research on an orange tree sponge before buying
it. After all, I thought, its a sponge.
<<Mmm, and a living thing (i.e. - livestock). Do understand that researching
your purchases does more than save lives of possible prospects, it can save the
lives of those already in your care. For instance, you bring home a creature on
a whim, let's say a sponge, that sponge proves to be an inappropriate purchase
for your system, breaks down releasing toxins, and wipes out your entire
system... Okay, maybe a bit dramatic...but hopefully you get the point. Please
research everything...>>
I have since read how difficult they are to keep in an aquarium setting.
<<Dismal survival rate, yes.>>
I went to my LFS who recommended Kent's ZooPlex Invertebrate food, which I
administer into the water using a bulb feeder around the area of the sponge. My
question is, is this enough to sustain it?
<<Not likely... We don't really know much/enough about these organisms to be
successful, but a mature refugium/DSB would go further toward sustaining
it. Even so, this sponge doomed to slow starvation...and that's only if it has
been handled correctly since collection (no exposure to the air). Truly a poor
choice/purchase my friend.>>
I read that they also need good water flow,
<<yes>>
about how many gph would you recommend in a 55 gal reef tank?
<<Minimum 10x the tank volume...20x would be better in my opinion.>>
I am currently around 300 gph from one filter (coming from the sump) and a pump
going in opposite directions.
<<Adding another pump in the 200-300 gph range with converging streams for all
to create random turbulent flow couldn't hurt.>>
Thanks in advance,
Frank
<<Regards, EricR>>
Another One Wants Us to do Their Homework For Them 12/5/05
Hi,
<Welcome!>
I am a child in the 7th grade,
<<By now you are a young lady. MH>>
I have a project to do in Life Science and I'm doing it on Sponges and I need about (10min - 20 max) different kinds of sponges by Wednesday. I will appreciated it if you can find some for me. Thank You.
<Lisa, nothing in life comes for nothing... you need to be looking up these yourself. I would recommend you start here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/sponges.htm . Best regards, John>
Bee Sponge husbandry
Hi Crew! :)
<Wallace>
I recently bought this orange sponge coral and had problems identifying it. I finally found out that it was a "Bee Sponge" but
I haven't had any luck trying to find any info on it! the only thing I could find on it was the following website from
LiveAquaria:
http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?pCatId=2161
<Acanthella species... there isn't much I could find re its husbandry either>
Would you be able to tell me a bit more about it or where I can find info on it? I've tried searching the net with not much luck.
E.g.. How do I feed it? How much light does it require (is there such thing as too
much light for it) ? is it best placed in substrate or rock ? How do I maximize it's health etc.
Many Thanks Guys! WK
<Am responding (though I know, can relate little) as no one else has chimed in here. I cannot even tell you whether this organism is photosynthetic or not... but can tell you where I would next seek useful information. The reef-oriented bulletin boards, ReefCentral, Reefs.org... do query the folks there, other aquarists... for input from people who have actually attempted care of Acanthella sp. AND do keep good notes re your efforts and share these. Bob Fenner>
Sponge additions?
Thinking of adding some sponges to my reef. I have good water quality except
my phosphates are 0.8. Good water movement but no dark areas to put them.
What do you think add them or forget them.
Thanks Vince.
< Sponges can be difficult to care for, especially if you do not know how
they were handled. I first want to mention that sponges cannot come
in contact with air. Oxygen will clog the pours in the sponge which will
therefore suffocate that area and cause it to die off. Algae will also clog the
pours causing the area to eventually die off. Because of this, I recommend first
lowering your phosphate levels to prevent any unwanted algal growth from forming
on the sponge. It's also important to keep the sponge in an area with strong
amounts of current and little amounts of lighting. If you cannot find an area
which fits this description, I would forget it. Hope this helps, Graham.>
- Orange Breadcrumb Sponge -
Hello Web crew, <Hello to you.>
Hope all goes well on your end, <When it's going, it does... thanks for
asking.>
I have a question about the Orange breadcrumb sponge I was thinking of
purchasing I have found some info on it like feeding of sponges but nothing that
really specifically talks about the husbandry of such a sponge like lighting,
water flow difficulty of care. I would like to get a sponge and was wondering
what you guys and gals think of this type of sponge as I hold your advice in
high regards. <It is not that easy to keep... requires specific foods.> I
have never had any sponges (except for the kind that hitch hikes on live rock).
The LFS has a real nice healthy looking one that stands about 5-6 inches tall
and is really bright orange which would add some color and uniqueness to the
system. Please let me know what WetWeb thinks. <Well, for starters, don't
expose it to the air - this is sponge-rule number one. Next, you will need to
feed planktonic foods and other dissolved organics which is the no-so-easy part.
Likewise, strong water flow will be required to encourage its long-term
survival. For some more background, please read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/sponges.htm
And also consider picking up the new Wet Web Media publication, Reef
Invertebrates, which has an entire chapter dedicated to the sponges.>
Thanks again,
James
<Cheers, J -- >
-Orange crumb sponge-
<I apologize that you had to send a few; one found its way into Anthony's
box who is busy working on the new book>
I was thinking of getting a sponge and a fish store here in my town has a very
nice healthy looking what they Call Orange crumb sponge. I have looked all over
and haven't been able to find any information specifically talking about the
husbandry of this sponge. I would like to know what you think, the lighting
required <None, this sponge is not photosynthetic if it's a Stylissa or
Stylotella sp. (guessing!)>, I found stuff on feeding, water flow needed...
etc. of this sponge. I would like some information before I purchase said
sponge. <Large sponges like this (as opposed to the tiny ones commonly
imported on live rock) have generally failed to thrive in captivity either from
poor handling or improper water flow and feeding. If this sponge is what I think
it is, it has a pretty dismal survival rate. If you care to try one of these
sponges, make sure it has ample water movement, and I'd suggest daily doses
phytoplankton (rotating different species to assure food diversity). It would
also be a great idea to install a refugium to help generate some additional
natural foods. You can check out the sponge chapter in Bob and Anthony's book
Reef Invertebrates as well. Good luck! -Kevin>
Thank you, James Wesley
Sponges and Those Who Sponge From Them
>Hello all,
>>Good morning, Marina today.
>I wanted to share an experience and ask a question as
well. Yesterday I received a red ball sponge (Pseudaxinella
lunaecharta) from an online livestock retailer (I will omit the name
here). I just wanted to say something that most more experienced
aquarists probably already know - that some species are just not a good idea to
mail-order.
>>Mail order or purchase from any retailer, indeed.
>The sponge came without any attached substrate and had some small patches of
white/clear surface material, which I understand is dead/dying
tissue. I complained to the vendor and they told me to keep them
posted about the specimen's condition, and call them if it gets worse - maybe I
can get a credit.
>>"Maybe"? Not good enough for me (I'm a real
hardnose when it comes to customer service), I hope you paid with a credit card.
>This is fine from a business standpoint, but they are still selling sponges
that are almost certainly going to die in short order.
>>Especially since they question no one regarding suitability of final
setup.
>I think we as consumers can do a great deal to discourage this practice
among dealers.
>>We vote with our dollars, yes?
>I am also suspicious that, while the vender packed the bag ALMOST full of
water, some air became trapped in the sponge during shipping - it looks like its
blowing a bubble out of one of the openings. So that's my two cents
there.
>>I wouldn't want to be a sponge.
>The question I have is now that I have this compromised specimen, what is
the best way to attach it to some live rock? I have some reef-safe
epoxy - would that harm the sponge?
>>I don't think so, you could use that or cyanoacrylate (superglue) on a
small portion. If you're still not positive or comfortable, you could
try some fine monofilament (fishing line) and mechanically affix the specimen.
>Right now it is sitting with its base gently wedged between two rocks, but
this is not a viable long-term placement. Also, after 24 hours the
opercula have opened and some of the white patches seem to have
disappeared. Does this mean the sponge is looking up, or is it just
false hope?
>>Can't say for sure without actually seeing the damage and then this
occurrence firsthand, but if it appears healthier, then I would not give up
hope.
>Finally, is it a bad idea to leave a damaged sponge in the
system?
>>I would prefer it to be in a quarantine system. I believe in
q/ting EVERYTHING (a bit hardnosed about that as well). You can
certainly watch it closely, as when they "go" they don't go as quickly
as say, anemone. I would think you'd have some time to remove it
should it be necessary.
>If it goes downhill fast will it poison the tank? I read
somewhere (I think WWM) that the really noxious sponges are mostly the
photosynthetic ones. I can only find very meager info about this
species - is the formal name above outdated? Thanks. Nick
>>Not sure about the rest of these queries at all. If I were
you I would hit our forums http://www.wetwebfotos.com/talk
as well as http://www.reefs.org (though I've
not seen too many folks very knowledgeable on sponges frequenting this site),
and finally you might have more success on http://www.thereeftank.com
as well as http://www.reefcentral.com
. Marina
Sea sponge Source
Dear Sir
We are
the one of Aquafeed manufacturer in Thailand. We are interesting to do research
and development about sea sponge application in Aquafeed. Could you advise me
about the supply sources of frozen fresh sea sponge or supplier?
We really need to know good supplier and well established company. I am
looking forward to hear your reply soon.
Thank
you in advance for your support
Yours Sincerely,
Ronnachai Mhordee
Procurement Manager
INVE (Thailand) Ltd.
<Unfortunately I don't know where I might refer you to directly. Perhaps SaltCreek(.com)
in the U.S., makers of Ocean Nutrition formulated foods (they use sponge
material in some of their products). I would try the World Mariculture Society
for leads on supply sources. Bob Fenner>
Sponge developing in 500 gallon tank - 2/11/03
Bob, when I normally think of sponges, I think of low illumination.
<You are mistaken, my friend. Most all sponges have symbiotic BGA and a few
are nearly 100% photosynthetic. The reef is covered with many sponges in full
sunlight. The common macro-species (red/orange tree, ball and finger sponges...
doomed to die) are lower light>
Ironically, this is near the top and in an area of relatively good circulation.
<Have you referenced the sponge called "chicken liver sponge".
Rubbery and just dreadful... variably colors too>
As far as any current chemicals, only Kalk for makeup water and a Kalk reactor.
Very confusing to me. I know you can not offer a magic wand, but should I be
alarmed and is this longer term a problem.
<Still limited in part by nutrients... start there>
My rocks are glued in and difficult to scrape. I have recently introduced an
Imperator angel and have had a yellow tang, purple tang, flame angel, potters
angel, Sailfin and Desjardin tang and a bicolor angel. None are
interested. I think even they would have a hard time getting this
stuff off. Any steps you
would advise taking. Thanks again for your time.
<Definitely nutrient control and export. Small things can make a huge
difference here... like never allowing the thawed frozen pack juice into your
aquarium (always strain meats through net and discard juice)... else it feeds
nuisance algae, sponge, feather dusters, etc to bloom. Daily skimmate, weekly
changing of carbon, larger weekly water changes, etc. Best regards, Anthony>
Keeping Blue Sponge- Haliclona sp. 2/16/03
Hello everyone,
<cheers>
I just had a question about Blue Sponges...Are they hard to keep what kind of
lighting and water flow do they like...
<They are unique among Poriferans in that they like very high light, very (!)
strong water movement and they are both calcareous and heavily photosynthetic.
Basically, treat them like an sps coral. The big catch is that they cannot be
exposed to air for long or at all. Bag them completely underwater and release
them underwater>
Do they need phytoplankton or what do they need to eat?
<Little or no phyto needed. They are symbiotic with BGA>
I was thinking about getting one but wanted to make sure I knew about it before
I do this. I have attached a picture for you.
<If you have metal halides and reef quality water... go for it. Notice the
"rock" that the sponge is attached to in your picture? That is Porites
nigrescens... a living sps coral that is getting killed by the sponge. Steal the
branches of living coral away and you've got a 2 for 1 deal <G>>
Oh by the way thanks for the info on the cleaner shrimp and how often they shed
their shells. Kit
<Always welcome :) Best regards, Anthony>
Blue Sponge & Flame Scallops-up - 2/16/03
Thanks for the prompt response. I have power compacts 50/50's (10K and blue
actinic) Yes I had read about not exposing them to air. OK so since I don't have
metal halides I should not get one.
<Truthfully, the lack of halides doesn't totally exclude you fro keeping blue
sponge. Under fluorescents, if you can get the sponge within the top 10" of
water with mostly daylight lamps and not so much actinic blue (just like you
will have to do for sps corals)... this sponge can live well. Be sure to change
your lamps every 6-10 months. Definitely an expense/bummer about PCs/VHOs.
Halides though are a much better value (cost of light produced, PAR per watts,
life of bulbs at 2-5 years each!, etc) and they would be better for growth in
this sponge>
I don't have the coral yet in my 90 gal reef getting one on Tuesday. But I plan
to have mostly LPS and SPS and a few fish...
<try to go with mostly LPS or mostly SPS... the two together are incongruous
(low vs. high light and heavy vs. no-target feedings... not to mention heavy
chemical warfare in the long run... post 1 year)>
Right now I have a Regal Tang, Domino Damsel, Cleaner Shrimp, Flame Scallop,1
hermit crab and some snails...I plan to get a few more fish (On Tuesday getting
2 Perculas and a bubble coral) Let me know what you think.
<I think you should find the jerk that sold you the flame scallop and kick
him in the jimmy <G>. Poor bugger (the Fileclam- AKA "scallop")
is doomed to die of starvation within a year if it even gets that far. Unless
you have a live phytoplankton reactor... seriously. A very difficult animal and
most starve to death slowly. Sorry to be a buzz kill, my friend. But you needed
to know/asked <G>. Best of luck. Anthony>
How About a Sponge? - 2/15/03
Hello again: 55 gallon FOWLR here. So far 25 pounds of
LR. I have nice coralline algae on rock, but no sponge
life. Are there any that are easy to keep? Thanks, Rich
<Some sponges are heavily photosynthetic (symbiosis with BGA), but most
sponges are decidedly heterotrophic and need huge amounts of food that we cannot
produce or provide for the aquarium. The common red, orange and yellow tree and
finger sponges of the Atlantic are still shamelessly promoted for cheap in the
industry. Few survive months if even weeks of import. There are just a few hardy
exceptions. The yellow/orange Moon/ball sponge (Cinachyra sp.). Even still...
sponges are some of the most toxic creatures in the sea. Their death in the
aquarium can easily kill fishes and some invertebrates. Not recommended for
casual keeping. Anthony>
Chicken Liver Sponge- invasive 6/4/03
I have a 180 gal. reef tank that's been set up for 1 1/2 years. Most of it's
contents came from two other tanks which where running for about 4 years. I had
purchased a Turbinaria coral from my aquarium club auction (Brooklyn Aquarium
Society) about 3 years ago which had a small brown sponge on the rock. At the
time I thought it was a great deal, 2-for-1. Unfortunately I've been battling
the spread of this sponge-from-hell for the last couple of years. I've done
everything from removing rocks to injecting Kalkwasser/Muriatic acid to pulling
it off the rocks.
<Yowsa... look out for the flamethrowers and napalm, next!>
This stuff just will not die. I have tried to ID the sponge, the best I can
guess is it looks like chicken liver sponge (Chondrilla).
<Doh! that sounds like the invasive bugger>
I was hoping you might know of a natural predator e.g. Nudibranch, sea star or
reef safe fish that I might try to control this sponge? Thank you.
Kevin Moriarty (aquanut)
<try some urchins instead, my friend... truly lawnmowers on a reef. May or
may not help here... sponges are certainly noxious... and chicken liver sponge
does have a horrible reputation. Best regards, Anthony>
Acclimation of sponges
Your book, "The Conscientious Marine Aquarist", has been
instrumental (along with a few selected other works) in allowing my wife and I
to setup a very rewarding 75 gallon reef aquarium. Having had several months to
establish good water quality and carefully develop a good bio-mix (snails,
crabs, a blenny or two, peppermint shrimp, a number of the more hardy soft
corals, etc.) we would like to add one or two specimens of sponge. My question
is this: In your book, and others, it states that the sponge should never be
exposed to air. This I understand. But in the same section of your book, when
referring to Red Ball Sponges, it states "never add shipping water to your
aquarium or quarantine system". Again, this is always the usual practice
when introducing a new specimen to a tank. What I cannot figure out is how I can
keep the sponge from being exposed to air for even a moment, and at the same
time not introducing any of the shipping water into my system. Is there a method
that I am not aware of that can meet both of these requirements?
Thanks for your guidance on this matter. Hugh Hegedus
>>
Hugh, thank you for writing. Sorry for the confusion re the transfusion...
Basically what is typically done to avoid exposing specimens to the air is a
kind of Boris Karl off pouring of new water (from your system) into the shipping
or acclimation container with a spill/pour off of now-mixed shipping and system
water out to waste. Either a few of these pour ins/outs or some variation of a
drip (in of new/system water) and spill/pour out (of mixed water) over a period
of several minutes... and you're done. Now if you can produce that
blood-curdling laugh and grimace while you're at it you'll have conquered two
genres at once!
Have attached a piece on Sponges, from an upcoming tome ("The Best
Livestock For Your Reef Aquarium") for your perusal.
Bob Fenner
Re: Sponges
Anthony:
<I'll try to respond, as Anthony seems on holiday>
Here's a picture of the gorgonians. I just redirected the power head behind
them and that seemed to make them open up significantly.
<Yes, appear healthy>
It seems they like
the water flow to change, not just be vigorous. The polyps opened up a lot
today and the main difference is I rotated the output of the powerhead a
little. This picture was also taken a half hour after adding DT's, which
also gets some of the polyps to come out, but not as much as the changed
water flow.
I decided to get rid of the red tree sponge. On closer examination, it had
several open holes in the back, where you couldn't see from outside the
tank, and more of the transparent decay. I did not want to risk my tank
since you mentioned they produce more toxins than other organisms. I will
keep the orange tree and ball sponge a little more and perhaps I will have
enough time to get the 10 gal tank in shape before putting them there. It
will also be easier to have a vigorous water flow with just one power head.
<Okay>
As far as the labor at the suppliers, I think both TB Saltwater and Gulf
View are very small operations. At least Dave Barge is pretty much a one man
show, with his wife and son helping him pack. He personally dives for
everything he sells, and seems fairly knowledgeable and caring.
<Impressive>
I have
talked to him about his business and he does not employ anyone to help with
the collection and shipping. He may just not realize how difficult it is for
the sponges to survive long term.
<Agreed. Very common>
I do agree with you that this type of
misinformation is bad and all concerned should strive to know more about the
animals they are dealing with (collecting, selling or buying) for the
benefit of the ocean and the hobby. At least these Florida outfits are
culturing the rock they sell and not collecting from a living reef. It is
hard to tell where transshipped rock is coming from and under what conditions
it was collected.
<Impossible in my estimation. Thank you for the follow-up. Bob Fenner>
Regards,
Henry |
|
|
Re: Diatom Filter now Sponges
Anthony:
Thanks for the reply and I appreciate the extra comments on the gorgonians
and sponges.
<my pleasure and thank you for putting up with my venting of an
industry gripe>
Although I kept a 120 gal FO tank many years ago (when I lived 45 min.s
from the beach in El Salvador, and I caught all my own livestock) and also
have had a FOWLR 10 gal nano-tank for the past three years,
<all excellent to hear!>
I have no experience with corals and the like. More than fish or even
corals, though, I like the other life on the rocks and around the reef the
best.
<yes... so very fascinating!!!>
In fairness to Tampa Bay Saltwater, they were not the vendor I used. I
bought my rock from Gulf-View.com and also in fairness to gulf-view, they
only offered free Ricordea polyps for the purchase of live rock.
<yes...thank you for the clarification. And indeed, to be sure... I do
not intend to single out any one vendor as representative of a whole
industry. In fact, I asked only as a bit of a personal survey based on
reports from aquarists that can be so heartbreaking. Indeed Bob has had to
listen to such queries and stories for many decades and I know that in
part it has been a motivation in his writings and teachings (books,
lectures, this very web site!) to inspire responsible and Conscientious
aquarium trade activity. After seeing the practice of collecting
inappropriate animals shift or at least waffle between selling and giving
away animals that have a staggering mortality and prospect in captivity...
I just took a moment to vent my frustration and dismay at seeing yet
another beautiful animal collected inappropriately when so many other
hardy ones are available for our study and viewing pleasure.>
I did ask if the sponges and purple gorgonians would do OK and if they
wouldn't mind giving me a few of those instead of all the Ricordeas I had
coming to me.
<wow... the Ricordea polyps were a MUCH better choice... yet I still
would never offer them to someone getting new live rock (risk of ammonia
spikes, etc)>
Dale Barger was very accommodating. Perhaps he could have tried to
discourage me and not said sponges might be OK, but I need to take
responsibility for not doing more research before going for the pretty
specimens at the last minute, while I was placing my order for the rock.
<I think we all need to take responsibility for the collection and
distribution of such animals. If a vendor wants to have continued good
business (short of exploiting an endless stream of uninformed aquarists,
then they need to conduct themselves responsibly with a long view for
their customers and the living resource (reefs) that support them. And as
consumers, we cannot depend on the above. We must resist impulse purchases
and be informed before we buy. If we cannot expect a collector to collect
responsibly, then we can strong arm them fiscally with the power of our
dollars.>
So far I am very happy with the rock I got but now I need to see what I
can do to keep the life forms alive and really be a conscientious marine
aquarist (love Bob's book).
<yes... agreed. All friendship aside, it is far and away one of the
most important books on aquarium science ever written in my opinion. An
amazing reference>
I will take you up on your offer to help me try to keep these beautiful
creatures alive.
<excellent... if your gorgonian is indeed purple, it may very well be
photosynthetic and rather easy to keep assuming it gets an amazing amount
of linear water flow. (well over 10X tank turnover). And gorgonians are
believed to be some of the most active phyto feeders that we know of. The
sponge... wow... I just don't know where to begin short of setting up a
small dedicated tank for it. It's requirements are nothing like your
symbiotic reef inverts, corals, polyps, and much of what is on the live
rock. Lets identify the species first. Quite frankly, if it is a red tree
sponge... I will be surprised if it lives to see 8 months (not even 8
weeks for many). Was the sponge even shipped in an airless bag? Were you
instructed to release it under water without exposing it to air? If not...
we may not have to bother discussing husbandry for it (and perhaps you can
empathize even more with my passion for seeing this for nearly a decade...
such a waste, it is heartbreaking). Some sponges (like the demo species on
your live rock) can easily take exposure to air... while others will not
tolerate the slightest exposure (air becomes trapped inside of them and
they cannot purge it... they die within months). Hmm... lets establish
this first and then ID the species if we can move on. Steve Tyree of
Dynamic Ecomorphology has written an incredible book on sponges. You may
want to look up his thorough work on the topic>
I will also do some research on the phyto plankton and zooplankton
reactors. So far I've been feeding DT's concentrated phytoplankton, trying
to baste it close to the various organisms and leaving the sump pump off
for a while.
<and remember that it must always be refrigerated (from point of
purchase through use) and less than six months old (else it clots to a
larger particle size that cannot be used/eaten by your hungry captives.
Also... the instructions on bottled phyto rarely emphasize the need to
whisk it in a blender before using it...again to reduce particle size. Dr
Rob Toonen recently did a comparative study on these products detailing
this. Still, DT's has a wonderful reputation. Please do continue to
experiment with it>
I guess you are saying the sponges and gorgonians really need more
zooplankton, rather than phytoplankton. Correct?
<actually not at all. Most coral prefer zooplankton. Many gorgonians
strongly favor phytoplankton... with sponges it varies or is not clearly
known (although they are inclined to eat more minute plankton... perhaps
phyto, bacteria, etc).>
I have one orange tree sponge, one red tree, a red wall sponge, two purple
gorgonians and the Christmas tree worms on a clam. Here are some pictures
to make sure we are talking of the same creatures. I had some focus
problems but hopefully you can make out enough from the pictures to see
what I have.
<yes... thank you , my friend. The pictures help so much... although
the bad news just got a little worse. At least two of the three sponges
will be dead within weeks rather than months, I am sorry to say. And
what's worse is that sponges have a greater concentration of natural
toxins than even most cnidarians (stinging animals like coral)... so not
only will you have the pollution from their rotting tissue, but you will
have to deal with some extra noxious compounds. I believe I can make out
the telltale watery translucence of the beginnings of decay on the first
picture of the orange tree sponge. And the decay has been clearly observed
on your red tree sponge as you have inquired with thoughts of possible new
growth. I'm sure you can see a little better why I feel so passionately
about vendors providing such difficult, dangerous and doomed organisms to
aquarists that haven't been duly advised. It is a great dis-service to
customers, the industry and life. These free animals just cost you some
money for the extra water changes and chemical filtration (extra carbon
and poly-filters would be great) just to temper their death and byproducts
in your tank. OK...some good news now... the picture you queried as
"Porites" is actually/likely a Siderastrea radians
"Star" or "Starlet" coral. It is perhaps one of the
hardiest corals on the face of this earth!!! A wonderful coral that can
adapt to a wide range of light and water movement. And the small coral
polyps you pictured with the burgundy corallines is a solitary cup
species. Cladocora is just one of several similar looking genera that this
coral might be. As it develops, do compare it to pictures in Paul Humann's
great dive book series including the book Reef Coral for a better ID.>
I have higher resolution pictures but I didn't want to clog your internet
connection should you have a dialup connection.
<no need but thank you for the consideration>
I would really like to keep the encrusting sponges alive.
<they require little maintenance. regular fish feeding (sources of
carbon incidentally from feeding and excrement) and a mature inline
refugium are often all that is needed>
Please note the ones in the picture of the Red Tree Sponge (on the rock
behind the red tree) and the Burgundy Sponge picture. Behind the red tree
is a big area of orange sponge, and on the upper right hand and lower left
hand corner of the orange is also a brown sponge that looks more like a
brain surface, with ridges and the like. There's also some yellow growth.
What can I provide for them?
<as above>
The free standing sponges seem to be doing OK but it has only been a few
weeks and I would not like to see them starve. The red tree sponge seems
to be growing.
<it is dying, my friend... a loss of pigmentation>
One of its fingers is growing some translucent tissue on its tip, and that
growth looks like it is starting to get some of the orange color (can't
see the color in the picture). The consistency of the tissue is similar to
the orange tissue of the sponge. It is just clear instead of orange.
<the odds of this being growth are astronomically small... but lets be
patient and hope for the best instead. Please give us an update if you
like in a couple of months. It would be very exciting to hear that you
have been an exception and great success story! We will be sure to quiz
you on your husbandry with hope of gleaning some tidbits to share with
other aquarists to improve all of our success with this animal in
captivity. As a rule, you will never see a tree sponge in a typical reef
tank make it to 2 years old. Most never see 6-8 months indeed>
The orange tree has a lot of little tubes sticking out from it. They seem
to open and close at different times.
<siphons... a filter feeder>
They come out at each of the white "dots" in the attached
picture. I assume the wall sponge is the same as a ball sponge.
<yes>
There are also a couple of corals that came with the rock. They were just
part of the rock and neither the vendor nor I specifically requested them.
The rock came from 40 ft of water so I am hoping these corals will survive
with the 110 W of power compact lighting that I have.
<yes... S. radians will easily and the Cladocora like polyps are very
weakly symbiotic or not at all>
I think one is a Porites and I have no idea what the other one is (see the
Burgundy Sponge picture. Can you help me identify both of these? I will
likely be purchasing your book in the next couple of weeks.
<please... you can hear me ramble for free by reading the FAQ's here
<smile>. Ha! Thank you my friend>
I have heard a lot of good things about it. I had not planned to get much
into corals but I guess I need all the help I can get!
<as we all do... and the first half of the book is on reef style
aquarium husbandry (tanks with live rock).. covering all of the basics.
There is a table of contents on my website (www.readingtrees.com). Do
browse it first if you like>
The Burgundy Sponge picture also shows the Christmas tree worm to the
right of the rock, right below the featherduster crown. It is different
than most other Christmas trees I've seen when diving in Belize.
<yes... so many species/colors of worms... many feeding by mucus in
pursuit of trapped organisms>
The ones I've seen are usually blue or red and fairly light colored. These
are dark gray with yellow dots and some white filaments, larger than most
I've seen.
<yes... beautiful!>
I intended to take it very slowly when setting up my tank but I ended up
with a few fish when a friend gave up on his tank when his return pump
broke. He said it was either my tank or certain death so I took a purple
tang, blue tang, royal Gramma, cleaner shrimp, fire shrimp and 7 scarlet
snails. They all seem to be feeding well. I also got a couple of dozen
snails after the ammonia and nitrites subsided.
<a very nice selection and all quite hardy>
The stats for the tank show 0 ammonia, 0.1 ppm nitrites (holding at that
level for a couple of weeks, I know I need them at 0 - waiting patiently
for now.), 25 ppm nitrates, 450 Ca, 8.2 pH and 3.2 meq/l Alk. Ca pH and
Alk have been steady since the tank was set up a month ago. I have been
tracking all measurements every couple of days.
<great chemistry especially for a new tank>
Based on a table at marinedepot.com, my Mag 7 pump should be delivering
420 gph on a 5' head and the two Maxijet 900s are doing 230 gph each, or
about 960 gph total turnover.
<yes not bad... but more for the gorgonians and sponges and especially
if you may get more coral in the future>
I will see about getting another Maxijet and perhaps plumbing the sump
return with more than one nozzle. The AquaC EV120 with Mag 5 pump just
recently started producing a thick skimmate.
<excellent!>
It took almost a month of very wet foaming before it settled into better
production now. I don't know if this is due to the skimmer itself or other
water chemistry that just took a while to settle down.
<not likely any skimmers fault... either the screwy young chemistry, or
you made a better tuning/adjustment. Good skimmers such as this could
easily produce skimmate daily on a young tank with fresh live rock and
fishes>
I may make the 3 hour drive to Dallas for MACNA. I'll certainly look up
the whole crew.
<that will be awesome! Yes, at least Bob, Steve and I so far>
Maybe I can even write up something about my new aquarium setup experience
for your site!
<Yowsa! that would be awesome... you might even get a group hug from
WWM for it... but don't let that stop you from writing the article anyway
<smile>. Indeed, a piece on your new experiences and perhaps one
later as a follow up (pushing my luck yet?) would be so helpful to the
many WWM readers. Please send it along to this address when you have a
f=draft or polished piece ready. It will be so greatly appreciated!>
Regards, Henry
<kindly, Anthony> |
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