FAQs on Marine Alkalinity
Troubleshooting/Fixing
2 Related Articles: pH,
Alkalinity, Marine
Alkalinity, Understanding Calcium &
Alkalinity,
Related FAQs:
Troubleshooting/Fixing 1,
Trouble/Fixing 3,
Trouble/Fixing 4,
Related FAQs:
Marine
Alkalinity 1, Marine Alkalinity
2, Marine Alkalinity 3, Marine Alkalinity 4, Marine Alkalinity 5, Calcium and Alkalinity, Phosphate, & FAQs
on Alkalinity: The Science of
Alkalinity, Importance, Measure, Sources,
Use of Additives/Buffers, Products by Name: & FAQs on pH: Importance,
Science, pH
Measure/Test Gear, pH Controllers &
pH Buffers/Buffering, pH Anomalies
(Troubleshooting/Fixing), &
pH Products by Name,
Manufacturer,
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Question about High Alkalinity in FOWLR tank 1/14/13
Hello WetWebMedia Crew,
<Hello Brent>
I normally only test for what I would call the basics since I have a
FOWLR set up: Ammonia (0), Nitrite (0), Nitrate (0), pH (8.1),
phosphates (.25), temp 79.2 and salinity 1.024. Although
phosphates are a little high, everything else looks great. My pH usually
tries to hover around 7.9 and 8.0. I've been trying to raise it a
little, so I have been testing Calcium and KH (Carbonate Hardness) using
API test kits. I'm scratching my head with what I am seeing. My Calcium
show 440/mg/L (ppm), which I understand is an acceptable range, 400 to
500. However, my KH Alkalinity is 22 dKH which is off the charts
according to the conversion chart. The range in the API Instructions
says for a community tropical tank adjust the GH & KH to 50-100 ppm.
Bob's book, The Conscientious Marine Aquarist: A Commonsense Handbook
for Successful Saltwater Hobbyists recommends 7 to 10 dKH for Reef, so I
assume lower for FOWLR. I'm at a loss for why my Alkalinity is so high.
There isn't any heavy algae growth. We do regular weekly 15 to 20% water
changes, which I understand should bring those numbers down, but I did a
50% water change this weekend and it hasn't gone down at all. I'm not
sure where to go from here, because everything I read is mostly about
raising KH, not lowering it. I tested the tap water and it reads a 4
dKH. I use a small amount of Baking Soda to raise pH to my goal of 8.2,
but it usually hovers around 7.9 or 8.0. We are currently using Instant
Ocean Salt mix. So here goes my questions: 1) I'm a
little unclear, does high KH alkalinity affect the fish and
invertebrates? If so what does it do to them? 2) Do I need to be overly
concerned with this high number that I work aggressively to lower it? If
so, any recommendations? 3) Calcium seems to be good, but I read that if
KH is high, then you should keep the Calcium at the lower end of the
acceptable range because of it causing a snow storm.
Am I understanding this correctly? I appreciate all your help.
<There is a difference between degrees of carbonate hardness (dKH) and
carbonate hardness (KH). I believe you did not convert the KH to
dKH.
Dividing the KH by 2.8 will give you your dKH which is what we are
interested in. So your 22KH results in a dKH of 7.8 which is more
along the lines of what I would expect. James (Salty Dog)>
Brent Wells
Re Question about High Alkalinity in FOWLR tank 1/14/13
Hello WetWebMedia Crew - James (Salty Dog):
<Hello Brent>
The test kit I am using is the API GH/KH Test Kit. The directions have
you counting the number of drops you add to the test tube to turn the
water to a bright yellow. Once you have the number of drops, you aren't
instructed to convert anything, because it provides a GH & KH Conversion
Chart (Shown Below). I've also attached the API Instructions. I counted
21 or 22 drops to change the water to a bright yellow. As you can see
from the provided chart, 22 drops isn't even included on the chart. It
only goes up to 12 drops. According the chart, the dKH is in relation to
the # of drops, so since I counted 22 drops, my dKH should be 22 dKH,
which is double the reading it should be. Am I missing something? This
would put me back to my original questions of: 1) I'm a
little unclear, does high KH alkalinity affect the fish and
invertebrates? If so what does it do to them? 2) Do I need to be overly
concerned with this high number that I work aggressively to lower it? If
so, any recommendations? 3) Calcium seems to be good, but I read that if
KH is high, then you should keep the Calcium at the lower end of the
acceptable range because of it causing a snow storm. Am I understanding
this correctly? I appreciate all your help.
<Your kit may be outdated, if you had a dKH of 22 you would be seeing
calcium precipitation (snow). Is there a marine dealer nearby that
could test your dKH and compare results to verify your test kit's
accuracy. Your next kit should be a kit designed for salt water
that measures dKH or meq/l. I'm quite certain the test kit you
have is for freshwater. Is this the kit you have?
http://www.apifishcare.com/Products/Product.aspx?ProductID=74
<James (Salty Dog)>
- Brent Wells
Re Question about High Alkalinity in FOWLR tank 1/14/13
Hello,
<Hello Brent>
Actually the API Test Kit is the "REEF MASTER TEST KIT" which is for
saltwater. It has testing for Calcium, KH, Phosphate, and Nitrate. The
expiration on the bottle says, August 2017. As for getting it tested at
a nearby Marine Dealer, I will look into it. I will give a couple of
dealers a call to see if they can test it. if the test kit is correct,
recommendations?
<I'd bet the dealer's reading will be much less. Get back with us
if it is not. Have you been dosing alkalinity buffers recently?>
Thanks,
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Brent Wells
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Re Question about High Alkalinity in FOWLR tank. 2/6/13
Hello
<Hello Brent>
I was finally able to get a LFS to test the Alkalinity in my FOWLR tank.
According to their test, our API test kit is correct. I counted 21 or 22
drops to change the water to a bright yellow. As you can see from the
provided chart, 22 drops isn't even included on the chart. It only goes
up to 12 drops. According to the chart, the dKH is in relation to the #
of drops, so since I counted 22 drops, my dKH is 22 dKH, which is double
the reading it should be. So, I am not sure what to make of the
extremely high Alkalinity? I use baking soda to make sure the pH
is correct.
<Ah hah!! Baking soda contains a high level of carbonates and will
raise alkalinity considerably as well as raise the pH but only to a
level the water chemistry can support. I would discontinue the use
of baking soda for this purpose. There are better means/ways
to do this. I suggest using Seachem's Reef Buffer to raise pH
which it does without drastically affecting dKH. Use Reed Builder
to raise dKH but it your case there is no hurry to order any of the
later.>
So, I'm back to my original questions listed below through the
conversation thread. I'm at a loss and I don't know what harm this high
Alkalinity could be causing and what steps, if any, I should be taking
to lower this? I appreciate any help you may provide.
<As above Brent. James (Salty Dog)>
Brent Wells
Re Question about High Alkalinity in FOWLR tank 3/26/13
Hello WetWebMedia Crew!
<Hello Brent>
It has been awhile, so I thought I would touch base concerning my water
chemistry issues from back in January. I have had time to monitor it for
a bit and make some changes. As a reminder, I was having unexplained
really high Alkalinity dKH (22 dKH), which is double the reading it
should be. We thought it might be the test kit, but we tested the water
at two different LFS and the readings were the same, so it appears the
test kit is correct.
I was using Baking Soda to adjust the pH. James (Salty Dog) recommended
I stop using Baking Soda and use instead Seachem's Reef Buffer to raise
the pH. Since January, I have been doing my regular water changes and
using the Seachem's Reef Buffer to control the pH. Here are the readings
of my water chemistry today: 46 gallon bow front | 79.2F Temp |
Ammonia 0 | Nitrates 0 | Nitrites 0 | pH 8.2 | Salinity 1.024 |
Phosphates 0.25 | Copper 0 | Calcium 440 | and Alkalinity, KH 17.
As you can see the Alkalinity has dropped some, but still not down into
appropriate ranges. The Calcium seems high. My understanding is it
should be around 400 with the high Alkalinity that I have.
<What is your magnesium level?>
Any recommendations on what you see here in my numbers? Should I be
concerned with the Alkalinity still at 17? How concerned should I be
with these numbers? What is the impact of Alkalinity on the inhabitants?
<Should not have any dangerous impact on the animals.>
Any ideas on how to reduce the Alkalinity, or steps moving forward?
<This will take some time to correct, the buffers will slowly lower,
more so if SPS/LPS corals are present. You might want to check the
dKH of your top off water and I would recommend using RO water if you
aren't already doing so. Also check the dKH of your water used in
your water changes, make sure you are not introducing water with a high
dKH. And of course, do not use any buffers in the system until the
level drops.>
Thanks always,
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Brent Wells
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PH questions, loss of in-tank buffering capacity, too much
reductive influence 8/7/12
Dear WWM Crew,
<Eddie>
I have some questions about PH. First some general info. I
have a 55 gallon marine fish with live rock system. Filtration is
an Emperor 400 on one side and a Penguin 330 on the other side with a
power head in the middle. I also use Boyd’s Chemipure. I
have had it set up for almost a year. Currently I have four fish
(Coral Beauty Angelfish, Ocellaris Clownfish, Six Line Wrasse, and Royal
Gramma), a cleaner shrimp, and several hermit crabs and snails. I
try to keep things as simple and affordable as I can.
<Good. Me too>
For the last year (and previously when I had the same tank set up
before I moved) I have used Seachem Marine Buffer to maintain PH.
I have done fairly well keeping it around 8.2 to 8.3 using this product.
<Mmm, better to figure out the source of loss of alkalinity... counter
this... w/ water changes and more>
On Saturday, before doing a water change I checked the PH and it was
around 8.0. This was lower than I was used to, but I didn’t
concern myself about it. I did my usual monthly 25% water change,
and added a dose of buffer afterward as usual. The next day, the
PH had only come up to about 8.1 or 8.2.
So I did another dose.
<...>
Today I checked the PH and it was back down to 8.1 or even 8.0.
This is unusual.
<Actually; not unusual. The "other sources of readily soluble carbonate,
bicarbonate are becoming exhausted... the nitrification in your canister
filters (reductive, acidic processes) are "eating away" at your
alkalinity faster than your buffer additions can handle to maintain the
pH point you're shooting for>
Normally, after a water change one or two doses is enough to get it
back up to 8.2/8.3. I use tap water and Instant Ocean Reef
Crystals. I can’t afford RO/DI water. The tap water has a
steady PH of 7.6. Recently, I purchased a KH test. I’m still
struggling to understand how all this works.
<No need to struggle. Do spend a bit of time reading. Start here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mphtrbl.htm
and the linked files above>
As I understand it, the alkalinity measures the ability of the water to
keep a constant PH.
<Yes; one way to look at this... another is that this is a measure of
the "resistance" to downward movement in pH>
I have read that a Marine tank should have a KH of between 8 and 12.
<This is so>
The tap water has a KH of 10 to 12. When my tank was holding steady at
8.2/8.3, I would have a KH of 15 or 16. Before the previously
mentioned water change the KH of the tank was 12. Tonight (after
the two doses of buffer) it was 16. So what do I need to do
to get my PH back to 8.2/8.3?
<Removal of some of the "acidifying influences", increase of the
opposite... addition of new/more alkaline substrate... a DSB, some new
carbonaceous rock for instance would help, adding a sump/refugium w/
macroalgae (lighted) culture as well, changing foods to somethings w/
less protein (its catabolism lowers pH, eats away at alkalinity)...>
Do I need to keep adding buffer?
<Not a good single plan in the long haul, no>
I don’t understand what has changed.
<See above... some parts (the rock, gravel) of your system that were
more easily soluble are about gone...>
Is there a simpler way to keep my PH where it needs to be?
<Quite a few... as you will find in your reading>
The rest of my water stats are as follows: Temp. 79; Ammonia 0;
Nitrites 0; Nitrates 0;
<Really? How is this kept at zero?>
Calcium 400; Specific Gravity between 1.022 and 1.023.
Thanks in advance for your answer.
Eddie
<Let's keep communicating till this situation is clear/er for you. Bob
Fenner>
Re: PH questions 8/8/12
Hi Bob,
First, pH tonight was around 8.0 (so it seems to be kind of steady there
now).
I've been reading the FAQ's in the link you sent (I'm about 80% through
them). I wanted to go ahead and send you a response, but I will
keep reading. The Nitrates are almost always that low (and never
over 5). I think it is due to the Chemipure.
<I see>
The only time they start to go up is when it is time to replace a bag.
A little more information about the tank. My substrate is fine
live sand 1 to 2 inches.
<Needs to be deeper>
I have about 25 lbs of live rock and about that much more base rock.
Some of the dead base rock has come "alive." My food (since
May) has been New Life Spectrum Pellets (small fish formula). I
also put in some dried seaweed for the Angelfish.
<Good foods>
Over the past year, my procedure has been a monthly water change of 25%
using tap water and Instant Ocean Reef Crystals. I usually added a
dose of buffer on the day of the water change because the PH of the new
water always came out 7.8 to 8.0. This would usually give me a pH
the next evening of 8.3 or so. Most months this would hold steady
for a couple of weeks, when it would get down to 8.2 or so and I would
add another dose. Then over the next couple of weeks I might have
to add a third dose (or might not) before doing a water change again.
That's why two straight doses with no change concerned me. I got
the dKH test a couple of months ago, and begin testing.
I noticed that (up until the last couple of days) a dKH of 12 to 14
meant that the PH was 8.1 or 8.2 and a dKH of 15 or 16 meant 8.3.
I knew that 8 to 12 dKH was what was recommended, but I figured that
because I used tap water (and the tap water had a dKH of 10 to 12
itself) that my system would need a higher dKH to hold the pH higher.
I understand now that this isn't right. I still wonder if using
tap water is not part of my pH problem though.
<Not likely no... for most folks, systems, simple tap/mains water is
fine for marine aquarium use. Much of what RO/DI removes IS buffer>
As for your suggestions in the last message: New/more alkaline
substrate (would I need new live sand after a year?);
<Yes; this is gone over on WWM a few times, places>
a DSB (what is this?);
<Deep Sand Bed: Please read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/deepsandbeds.htm
and the linked files above>
New carbonaceous rock (would this be more base rock? live rock?);
<Either/both>
Sump/refugium (This is not possible right now. Perhaps in the
future. Tank maintenance is funded from the family budget.
New livestock/upgrades are funded by Christmas and Birthday :-));
As for changing foods. My fish are looking better with the NLS
than they had before. I tried it to combat HLLE in the Angelfish.
I really don't want to change it).
<I wouldn't>
After some of the reading I had a couple of other thoughts. I
think I have decent water movement, but I also keep the tank covered
(except for where the filters return). Should I remove the covers?
<Maybe a bit>
We have several potted plants in the room with the tank. Could this
be a factor?
<Not likely. Unless these were quite numerous, taking up oxygen, giving
off appreciable CO2 by night>
Of course, all these factors have been consistent over the last year.
Here's something else that I don't understand. If my problem is
nitrification "eating away" at the alkalinity, then wouldn’t the dKH
reading be lower--instead of 16?
<Yes>
Also I don't understand, if the alkalinity is about holding the pH where
it is, what is it that makes the pH a particular level?
<Keep reading... a balance, more than reductive influences... mainly the
presence of carbonates, bicarbonates>
I hope I don't sound too ignorant. The reading helps, but a lot of
it is still over my head.
<It will soon be clear/er>
Thanks so much for helping me.
<A pleasure. BobF>
Eddie
Cloudy water, BTA closed
6/25/12
Crew,
<Jeff>
Thank you for all you do! I have a 6x2x2 tank that has been set up
about 6 months. The setup includes a lot of live rock, a 55 gallon
sump with skimmer and a 20 gallon refugium. All fish are currently
in a QT tank due to an Ich outbreak. I am on week 8 of the 10 week
fallow period. The occupants of the DT are multiple hermit crabs,
a couple cleaner shrimp, a BTA and the following corals:
Hammer coral (Euphyllia parancora), Torch coral (Euphyllia glabrescens),
Tooth coral (Galaxea)
<These three rank near the top in terms of allelopathogenic
"strength"... Winners... see WWM re>
and a Tree coral (Paralemnalia). Since these corals are pretty
aggressive there is plenty of room between them. Everything was
looking good and healthy on Saturday night. I dosed
calcium, iodide and an alkali buffer
<Mmm... depending on the make up of the first and third... trouble>
due to my pH getting around 8.0 (have a pH probe for constant
readings).
Usually I don't dose all of these at once. On Sunday when my
lights turned on the tank was cloudy and BTA was completely closed up,
all corals looked good and open. The pH had dropped to 7.9
(confirmed with pen style pH meter and pH buffers) so I dosed more
alkali buffer
<Don't as in Do Not add this directly to your system; instead, mix-into
new water to be used as change out>
and took water quality tests: Ammonia = 0, Nitrite = 0, Nitrate = 30 (I
know this is high but I have never been able to get my nitrates low,
even with no fish and very light feeding of the shrimp and crabs.
<...?>
Any ideas on this?),
<Yes: See WWM re... the search tool, indices>
Calcium = 400, kH = 10. I did a search on WWM and saw a post
where the cloudy water was coming from dosing calcium and buffer at the
same time.
<Not uncommon>
I figured I'd leave it for a day to see if it cleared up. Today
(Monday) the tank is still cloudy, the BTA is still closed tight, and
now my Torch coral is looking shriveled up. The pH is still 7.9.
I did a 20% water change a week ago and will need a day to make RO water
and mix the salt before I can do a another water change. Am I
missing something here?
<Likely (my fave term) a "cascade event"; with a chemical/physical
challenge to your Cnidarians; their in-turn reacting, poisoning/fighting
each other...>
Any other steps I can take?
<Start mixing water for a massive change out... looking for established
space to move/separate them>
One more thing, my pH has always been around the 8.1 range and I
can't seem to keep it higher consistently. Any ideas on this?
<... the usual ref. to having you, others search, read, use WWM... No
sense myself, the rest of the Crew re-writing, revisiting,
reiterating... the 30-40k people per day who use the site... join them>
Thank you!
Jeff
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Re: Alkalinity Calcium Reactor 6/23/12
Bobby,
<Hi Steve>
Just wanted to let you know i throttled the calcium reactor half way
back down and added dosing pumps on the tank to add 2 part every hour.
My alk is stable but the calcium is still dropping a bit. I just
increased the minutes the dosing pump is on to add another 25ml of
calcium through out the day.
<Sounds good>
Do you think i still need the Kalk stirrer through my ato?
<Not likely needed with both the 2 part and the Ca Rxr>
I like the idea of precipitating phosphates <negligible, especially if
you are using GFO>
as well as assisting in countering the co2 from reactor.<Some value
here, but not a ton with the small amount you would need to add>
Just want to make sure i am not going overkill here.<Just be careful
with having to many variables going on that you cannot find the area to
affect if things get out of whack. Keep it simple!>
I finally was able to get my numbers stable with the reactor however my
ph started to top out at 7.7. With the dosing pumps now i am 8.0
at the lowest and 8.1 at its peak.<Those numbers are fine>
Thanks
Eric
<My Pleasure, Bobby>
Low dKH 6/19/12
<Hello Pam>
Today, during a routine check of my tanks stats, I was FLABBERGASTED
when I saw that the dKH dropped from 7 to 4!!!!!!!!!
It's usually around 8 or more, but I do confess it's tough to keep it
there, hence the low 7.
When I couldn't think/ remember the reason for the drop, I gritted my
teeth in frustration, cursed myself for not knowing such basic stuff,
and I revisited my basic water chemistry info!
I dosed it with Kent's Super Buffer, @3 tsp dissolved in fresh water for
my 75 gal. tank, and now it's at 10dK
a.. Cal 480
b.. pH 8
Yesterday, we had a warm day here on Cape Cod, and my tank went
from a normal 75 degrees to 80.
Other than that, I do water changes every week!
See attach.
What could have caused this huge decline?
<May have been the increase in water temp. Biological activity
speeds up at higher temperatures and can produce more acidic waste which
would lower the dKH.>
Ya know, I should have 'listened' to my Lopezi Tank, as he was behaving
abnormal for 2 days, with darkened color, hiding and darting around the
tank at feeding time.
Not his usual 'social' behavior and vivid blue coloration.
Thanks for your help!
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Pam
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Using Instant Ocean
now, may switch to
Aquarium Systems Reef Crystals
Always allow newly mixed salt water to circulate with a
powerhead or airstone at least over night before use. This
allows carbon dioxide to equilibrate with the atmosphere, which normalizes
pH. It also allows oxygen to be added.
- 75 gallons
- 50 lbs dry rock
- 4 inches LS
- Remora skimmer
- Power filter with floss, charcoal
(API) Poly Filter â
- 48 inch Current USA 6x54W Nova Extreme Pro
T5HO 3-10k/3-460nm Actinics
- AquaFX Economy 3 Stage 100g RO System
* Reminder;
Alkalinity is measured as dKH
To convert ppm (on Tetra Strips Chart) divide ppm by 17.8
Alkalinity is a
measure of water’s ability to neutralize acids and resist change.
Magnesium should be in the 1300 -- 1500 ppm range for everything to balance
properly.
|
March 16, 2012
|
March 20, 2012
|
April 8, 2012
|
April 20, 2012
|
Ammonia
|
0
|
? no kit
|
? no kit
|
still no kit L
|
ALK
|
10 dKH
|
8 dKH
|
10 dKH
|
8 dKH
|
Calcium
|
280
|
320
|
360
|
380
|
Ph
|
8
|
8
|
8
|
8.2
|
Salinity/SG
|
0.022
|
0.024
|
0.026
|
0.026
|
Nitrate
|
0
|
0
|
0
|
0
|
Nitrite
|
0
|
0
|
0
|
0
|
Temp
|
78
|
78
|
75
|
75
|
- Dosed B – Ionic ( for Calcium and ALK)
March 18, 2012 1 T.
- Dosed B-Ionic (Cal & Alk) April 7,
2012 ……one Tablespoon
- Dosed B-Ionic (Cal & Alk) April
12,2012………. 2 T
- Dosed Reef Advantage Calcium @ 1.5
tsp May 5, 2012
|
May 5, 2012
|
May 8, 2012
|
May 11, 2012
|
May 17, 2012
|
Ammonia
|
|
|
|
0 J
|
ALK
|
8 dKH
|
7.8 dKH
|
10
dKH
|
dKH
|
Calcium
|
320
|
340
|
420
|
380 L ?
|
pH
|
8
|
7.8
|
8.4
|
8.0 L
|
Salinity /SG
|
1.026
|
1.023
|
1.022
|
1.024
|
Nitrate
|
0
|
0
|
0
|
0
|
Nitrite
|
0
|
0
|
0
|
0
|
Temp
|
76
|
76
|
75
|
75
|
- Reef Advantage Calcium starting today May 8, 2012
- 3 tsp
- May 9th 2012 -
3 tsp
- May 17, 2012 - 3 tsp
|
May 22, 2012
|
June 2, 2012
|
|
|
Ammonia
|
0
|
0 J
|
0
|
|
ALK / KH
|
8
|
7
|
4! ?? Emergency dose
w/Kent Super buffer dKH ! Now 10
|
|
Calcium
|
460
|
400
|
480
|
|
pH
|
8.0
|
7.5
|
8
|
|
Salinity /SG
|
1.024
|
1.024
|
1.024
|
|
Nitrate
|
0
|
0
|
0
|
|
Nitrite
|
0
|
0
|
0
|
|
Temp
|
76
|
75
|
77
|
|
When your Ca gets
up around 440ppm you will want to watch for creeping and spikes, 440ppm is
towards the top of the scale too much higher could cause precipitating Alk.
Dry Calcium (Calcium
hydroxide: AKA "Kalkwasser"): In summation, one
of the absolute best supplements to dose calcium in aquaria with a long list
of benefits and few disadvantages. Easy to use, but easy to abuse. Follow
dosing protocol strictly.
|
Alkalinity (SeaChem products) and Zoanthid Behavior
12/21/11
<Hello Steve>
I have a 46 bow front with a 120w LED fixture. I am currently turning
over my water about 50x an hour using 4 power heads and a HOB protein
skimmer. I have about a 3" LSB and 50# of LR. I have 2 clowns, 1
Green Chromis, and 1 Damsel. My coral consists of a colony of Clove
Polyps, 2 Orange Yumas, a colony of Branching torch coral, a colony of
Branching Hammer coral, and a small zoo colony. I also have several
hermits and snails as well as 2 Peppermint shrimp. I noticed several
weeks ago that my zoos were not opening. I tested my water and here
were the parameters I got. Sal 1.027, PH 8.4, Alk 4.5
dKH, Cal 460, Mag 1600, temp 80.2F. I used
several test kits to confirm my reading and they were accurate. I
brought the Alk up to 8 dKH over a couple days using Reef
Builder. Then I let the tank settle a few days and did a 20%
water change which leveled out the Mag to 1280 and my salinity went
back to 1.024. The problem is that I cannot keep my Alk up. It keeps
dropping to about 4-5 dKH over the course of a few days.
<Is not dangerous in a well maintained system. Might want to get the
calcium down to 400.>
Now my Mag is slowly increasing again.
I have not been dosing with anything except when I raised the Alk.
<Reef Builder does contain magnesium and likely the reason your Mag
is going up.>
I have not noticed any precipitation. The owner of the LFS was baffled
and did not believe me when I told him what my parameters were. Do you
have any idea what could be causing this and what I can do to solve
it?
<I would use Reef Buffer for raising the alkalinity
in your particular system. Reef Buffer has a higher pK (8.6) and allows
for greater pH stability in a reef system where the bioload can be
significantly more than in a fish only system.>
I have looked through your website but cannot find anything that
helps.
<As to the Zoanthids not opening, it is likely due to your
high (50X) turnover rate, they do not appreciate high water
flow.>
Thanks in advance,
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Steven Edmiston
Borate alkalinity way high-low to no
carbonate alkalinity 8/22/11
Hello Crew,
<Hello Jenny>
I love your site.
<Thank you.>
I think it's the best resource on the web. I spend countless hours
researching, and I usually find the answers to what I'm seeking,
but this time I can't seem to find the similar problem. I have a
newly set up 70 gallon reef tank with a 4" DSB and about 90 pounds
of live rock. Also a 40 gallon refugium with a few pieces of live rock
and some rubble, 6" DSB. It will contain Chaeto and copepods. I
currently have a SeaClone 100 protein skimmer but just ordered an AquaC
EV-180 with the JG fitting and Mag 7 pump.
<A good choice.>
I used Kent Marine reef salt mix with RO water to set up the tank. My
readings are:
temperature: 80.8
PH 7.8(I want it up to 8.3)
ammonia 0
nitrates 10
nitrites 0
magnesium 1350
total alkalinity 5 meg/L <meq/l>
borate alkalinity 5 meg/L
carbonate alkalinity 0
specific gravity at 1.026
I want to have perfect water conditions for both fish and coral before
adding any livestock, and I believe I'm having some problems with
the alkalinity readings. I use the SeaChem test kit for magnesium and
alkalinity. I don't think I'm going to test for or supplement
for Strontium. Is that ok?
<I've never tested for this element in 30+ years. Good reef type
salt mixes should supply this trace provided regular water changes are
carried out.>
The overall alkalinity where it's supposed to be, but I believe the
majority of the alkalinity is supposed to come from carbonate
alkalinity.
Is this correct,
<Yes.>
and if so, how do I correct this?
<Correct what? Your total alkalinity (which is what we are
interested in) is 12.5 dKH. I would like to see you keep this around
7-9 dKH for a reef tank. High alkalinity readings can cause calcium to
precipitate out of solution although you are not at that level yet. Do
not add any more buffer until the dKH level drops to 7 dKH.
Multiplying the meq/l figure
by 2.8 will give you the dKH.>
Thank you.
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Jenny
Re Borate alkalinity way high-low to no carbonate alkalinity
8/22/11- 8/23/11
Hi James,
<Hello Jenny>
Thanks for the quick reply.
<You're welcome.>
My question on what to correct was based on the very high borate and
pretty much non-existent carbonate alkalinity. I thought the total
alkalinity had to come from carbonate, of which you agreed, so I was
wondering how to correct that. Then you said that the total dkH is what
interested in. If that's the case, is it even necessary to test for
borate and carbonate separately if the overall is ok?
<Is not necessary to test for borate, using a marine alkalinity test
kit is all that is necessary. Buffers designed for marine aquaria will
be blended with carbonates in the correct proportion to raise dKH. I do
not understand how you are getting a high borate reading if you are
using buffers designed for marine aquaria.
Perhaps you are not doing the math, carbonate alkalinity is determined
by subtracting the borate alkalinity from the total alkalinity. May
want to read here.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/6/chemistry>
Thanks,
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Jenny
Re Borate alkalinity way high-low to no carbonate alkalinity
8/22/11- 8/23/11
Hi James,
<Jenny>
This is a new setup that is cycling, and I haven't buffered it at
all besides a couple water changes.
<Salt mix contains buffers.>
I contacted LuAnn in the Tech dept at Kent Marine, and she said the
SeaChem borate test is known for inaccuracy and concurred with you that
a marine alkalinity test is all that is needed. Regarding my low pH, I
have different readings on different probes, and the color chart on the
chemical test is closer to one of my probes, so it's actually
around 8.1 which is fine with me. Thanks so much for getting back to me
again.
<You're welcome.>
I am learning so much, it's invigorating to know I'm on the
right track.
Have a great week.
<And you as well. James (Salty Dog)>
Jenny
Low pH with high Alkalinity and dKH-
8/20/11
Hi, crew.
<Hi Deb>
I sent this yesterday but I haven't got a response so I thought I
would send it again just to be sure.
<Ok, sorry if your message has 'got lost' somewhere>
I have a 65 gallon tank with a Penguin 350 external filter with
activated carbon and a protein skimmer. Livestock = 1 Yellow Tang, 1
Tomato Clown, 1 Coral Beauty Angelfish, 2 Striped Damsels, 1 Coral
Banded Shrimp and a few Astrea snails and hermit crabs.
<Ok. This tank is too small for Yellow Tang though, especially with
the others you list>
I recently added some Zoanthids but they are not doing well. I have
been using test strips, <worthless> but recently got better test
kits and these are the results: pH 7.7 (which I know is dangerously
low--I repeated it twice just to be sure),
<Not dangerous, but low indeed and needs to be corrected. What time
of the day are you reading this?>
nitrite 0, nitrate 10 ppm, calcium > 500 ppm,
<Far too high, wants to be about 400>
alkalinity 3.02, dKH 8.45, PO4 = 1.0,
<Again, too high. Read: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/phosphatemar.htm.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php>
Mg = 1380, SG = 1.022,
<Raise this to 1.025-1.026>
Temp 78. I have been doing a 10 % water change every 7 - 10 days.
<This is good practice>
I don't know how the pH can be so low with the dKH and alkalinity
so high.
<This is likely because of your high fish load and the resultant
respiration (CO2) and feeding/ waste produce (acids). Organic loads on
systems put downward pressure on the pH>
What can I do about this?
<There are many solutions, likely a combination of several,
including finding the Tang a larger home, aerating the water/ skimmer
with air from outside the house to 'blow off' CO2, graduating
to a sump/ reverse-lit refugium system.... Please read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fwsubwebindex/fwph,alk.htm?h=
and here:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.php
. Simon>
Re: Low pH with high Alkalinity and dKH- 8/20/11
Hi crew!
<Hi Deb>
Thank you for your very comprehensive answer, Simon. It gave me a lot
to think about.
<No problem>
I understand the chemistry a lot better after reading the articles.
<Great! That is how I first learnt.. by reading... it's the best
way!>
To answer your question, I measured the pH at night, daytime value was
closer to 8.0.
<This is more like it>
I am now experimenting with greater aeration to raise pH.
<Try running an airline into your skimmer from outside>
I will increase SG
<This is likely the cause of your Zoanthids not doing well, not the
pH>
and probably use ferrous oxide to lower PO4,
<Be careful not to strip the water of PO4 completely - easily done
by over-using this media, of which I am a fan of in small
quantities.
Phosphate is an essential nutrient.>
with a longer range plan of upgrading my system to give my fish
(especially the tang) more space.
<Great!>
In the end we will all probably be a lot happier!
<Yes, the fish will reward you with increased health and vitality if
you do this>
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
<Good luck Deb, Simon>
Nitrate and Alkalinity Issues
8/9/11
Good evening folks,
<Good morning Rob!>
I have a couple of real conundrums on my hands I am hoping you
might be able to provide some possible answers too.
<I'll try, this is quite a message you've sent
here!>
First for the set-up:
54gallon Corner Bowfront (Photo 1) Set up for about 6 months.
24" Outer Orbit Light hung about 8 inches above the tank
(1-150 W 10000K MH running an 8 hour cycle, 2 - 26 watt 50/50,
and 2 -26 watt Actinics running a 12 hour cycle, 6 blue and 6
white LEDs the other 12 hours)
<Do you mean that there are lights on the tank 24hrs a day? If
so, then I would not do this - your fishes will suffer for
it>
All the bulbs are about 6 months old.
My tank cover is made of the white grate type light diffuser
because I was having heat problems with the glass canopy.
<Good>
I have a Remora Pro C Protein Skimmer running with a Mag-3 pump
connected to a home made over-flow box. (Photo 2).
<A fellow DIY-er! Nice!>
In the box I have Fluval BioMax Biological Filtration Media Bio
Rings that have been in there for about 2 months.
<If you have live rock then I would remove these - Google
'Berlin Method'>
Above that is a Polyfilter, which is cleaned at 3 weeks with
hydrogen peroxide (The manufacturer says you can do this up to 4
times so you can get 4 months worth of use out of one. I am not
comfortable with that) and replaced after six weeks total.
<This is a good product but is expensive. I would probably
save it for times of emergency and utilise a good carbon product
instead. Also, it is better cleaned weekly as it can act as a
sponge and trap debris leading to a rise in nitrate>
In this case it was replaced 2 weeks ago. Above that is a 40 uM
pore size foam filter that gets swapped out for a clean one every
week when I do tank maintenance.
<Ok. Do you have problems with debris in the water column? If
you do not then I would leave out these sponges et. Al and use
the skimmer w/ good circulation to remove this>
I have a home made in tank refugium that has a Rio 50 power head
dialed way down to a trickle.
<Yes! I love this!>
I have a couple of pieces of live rock in it and some
Chaetomorpha (Photo 3) and one blue tip hermit crab
<Remove him from here - a refugium is no place for
predators>
and a Nerite snail that I believe has made his escape over the
wall. I stocked it with a culture of amphipods and copepods,
which have moved out into the main tank as well.
<Great!>
I have two maxi-jet 1200 power heads with Hydor rotating water
deflectors
<These are great>
in the front corners that face each other and are on a wave maker
and alternate at 2 minute intervals. I have a third Maxijet 1200
at the back of the tank on the bottom that blows into the back
corner and around the side that comes on and goes off every 3
minutes as well.
<Mmm, am not a fan of such devices. 1) The constant turning on
and off of Maxijet-type powerheads leads to premature pump wear
& failure. 2) They inevitably reduce total system flow as the
pumps are not on all of the time.>
There is approximately 4" of aragonite sand on the
bottom.
<Would increase this an inch if you can, for DSB deeper is
better>
I have about 50 pounds of live rock. There is a second clump of
Chaetomorpha in the tank itself behind the live rock.
I have two Visi-therm 100 Watt heaters and maintain temps between
79 and 82. It has crept up above 82 on occasion lately to 83
because of the heat wave we have been experiencing and my home
A/C unit can't keep the temp in the house down. A few times
(not many maybe 3-4) I have turned my MH light off early, by an
hour or two, because of the temp being too high.
<Yes. The photoperiod of the MH could be turned down to 4 or 5
hours here to help. Are you utilising fans over the tank? These
will make a difference.>
Livestock:
Ocellaris Clown
Six-line Wrasse
Royal Gramma
Lawnmower Blenny
Blue Hippo Tang (Yes, I know he is too small for this tank. I was
going to trade him in when he got bigger but I got a deal on a 90
gallon so once he gets a little bigger he will be moving on
up!)
<Great!>
Coral banded shrimp
Peppermint shrimp
An unknown but not massive quantity of Astrea starfish
2 small Zoanthid frags
1 small open Brain frag
1 small Pineapple Acropora frag
1 small and 1 large Ricordea
A rock covered in an encrusting Gorgonian
A yellow polyp rock
4 small Mushrooms
A medium sized Star Polyp frag
I have a about 12 various hermits
<This is a lot.. Keep your eye on these they can be trouble.
This many will have an impact on the life in your DSB
also>
(dwarf zebras, blue legged, dwarf
red tip, and a Halloween), 3 Nerite, 2 turbo, and 3 Nassarius
snails, and a tiger conch.
I also have a container in the corner with some coral rubble and
a red mushroom my 6 year old daughter cut up this weekend.
:-)
<I see this -- many hours of fun, eh?>
There is also a single (that I saw) bristle worm in the refugium
that does not seem to be causing any problems.
<these are usually beneficial>
There are some Star Polyps on the live rock in there and a few
other unidentified critters and they are fine (so live and let
live!).
I feed the fish a varied diet and target feed the inverts twice a
week. I really do not over feed and what little left over there
is the snails and crabs seem to make very short work of!
Maintenance:
I do a weekly water change. I change 10%. I use RO water I buy
from my LFS. I used to use their salt water but they use regular
Instant Ocean and I prefer something more balanced for the reef
from the get go so I make my own using the Reef brand salt. I add
Reef brand trace elements by the recommended dose every Wednesday
(Per advice from the manufacturer, given the frequency of my
water changes).
<Mmm, if you are using a good reef salt, and changing 10% each
week then there should be no need to add additional trace
elements. Be wary of marketing ploys, a good salt should contain
all that you need>
All other additions are added after testing the water.
<Good>
I seem to be developing a pattern where I need to add Iodine
about every two weeks.
<Really? Don't get hung up on this'¦ most iodine
test kits are unreliable to say the least, and most foods contain
a lot of iodine, especially Nori if you feed this, so you are
probably adding it every day anyway. There are instances where
iodine supplementation might be necessary or appropriate, but it
is the animals that are likely to tell you when, not a test kit
that quite frankly is IMO a waste of time and money. See here for
a great article: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/IodineSWArt.htm
There is also a really good one by Randy Holmes-Farley on
reefkeeping but I can't load it up for some reason>
I also add some type of Alkalinity supplement because I can't
seem to get it where I want it (although I am not sure I need to
get it where I think I want it!)
<I go for 10dKH>
I clean the front glass only and leave the sides to grow whatever
they will.
<This a healthy approach>
I have good growth of mostly green coralline algae but there are
also some spots of red. There are also lots of snail eggs and
little Pineapple Sponges.
<Great!>
I vacuum the surface of the gravel when I siphon out my water. I
rarely get much in the way of detritus. I do get molts, mostly
from my coral banded shrimp that seems to molt every three weeks
or so, but also from the hermits.
<You can leave these or remove. It is up to you>
I wait a day and then check all my water chemistry.
This weeks readings:
Salinity (S.G.) - 1.026 (Refractometer)
Temp - 80.5 (I read this continually)
<Double check this with a good mercury thermometer>
API Test Kits
pH - 8.0 (I can't seem to maintain any higher no matter what
I add!)
<this is fine>
Ammonia - 0 ppm
Nitrite - 0 ppm
<No need to test these now the tank is cycled, unless you spot
a problem>
Nitrate - 20 ppm
Ca - 440 ppm
KH - 8
Seachem Test Kits
Magnesium - 1335 ppm
Total Alkalinity - 2.8 meq/L
Borate Alkalinity - 1.2 meq/L
Carbonate Alkalinity - 1.6 meq/L
<Mmm, I have heard of this Seachem test, but confess you are
the first person I have heard of using it. For most, a single
alkalinity test is fine. The Salifert one being a favourite, but
your API one is probably ok. There is an article that describes
this test on AA: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/9/chemistry>
Iodine - 0.02 mg/L
<I don't want to discourage you from testing your water,
but IMO this is a waste of time, as it is not clear which forms
of iodine are being tested, and the result cannot be trusted
anyway>
Recent events:
When I did water testing this week my Nitrates were at 20
ppm. I NEVER run this high. I usually read between 0 and
5 ppm on the API test and just figured it was an anomaly until I
checked some distilled water and it was in fact reading 0 ppm. I
don't know why I seem to always have a little nitrate but I
was never above five before and everyone was doing fine so I
didn't worry. But now I am at 20 ppm and just a day after I
did my water change. Normally I check my chemistry in the
afternoon. This week I did it in the morning so I figured maybe
the plants needed to get cranking, so I repeated it in the
afternoon but it was still between 10 and 20 ppm. I immediately
did a water change and got it down to 5 ppm.
<this is fine>
Here is conundrum 1. I had very little algae on the glass this
week, almost none in fact. I also noticed some of my green
coralline on the rear glass turning gray. Which, from what I can
recall, corallines can die off and come back for no apparent
reason so I was not concerned.
<It is usually a lack of calcium/ or carbonate
(alkalinity)>
The decreased algal growth could explain why the nitrates went
up, no one is using them.
<Mmm>
But if the nitrates are going up why didn't the other algal
species take off?
<Would look to another reason>
There is plenty of light and obviously plenty of nutrients?
Everyone still seems to be doing fine except the
mushrooms seem a little deflated right now. I also seem to have
had an amphipod and perhaps copepod die off, but that too seems
to happen occasionally.
<Those pesky hermits! I would thin these down to one or two
max if it was my tank >
Any thoughts or ideas on what happened and what might have caused
it?
<The sponges in your filters?>
Should I be worried about the coralline die off or the amphipod
and copepod die offs? Thoughts on the droopy mushrooms when my
more delicate animals are doing well?
<I would not be too concerned here. Your obvious diligence
will see you through. There is a chance that the rise in temp
could be a factor>
Conundrum 2: My pH is pretty consistently 8.0. My KH on the API
kit seems to vary between 8 -11. Depending on what you read some
people suggest trying to get it as high as 14.
<I have not heard this.. but then again I'm not active on
any of these trendy forums, so I don't know what people are
experimenting with. 8-11 dKH is fine, but I would try to
stabilise it a little better around a 1-2 digit drift>
The API test kit recommends 8-12 (140 - 200 mg/L Carbonate or 2.9
-4.3 meq/L Carbonate). I have some variability with the Seachem
test as well generally my Total Alkalinity is between 2.5 and 3.1
meq/L, with Borate Alkalinity accounting for 0.6 - 1.3 meq/L and
Carbonate accounting for 1.6 - 2.4 meq/L. Seachem recommends a
Total Alkalinity of 4 - 5 meq/L with Borate accounting for 1.5 -
2.0 meq/L and Carbonate accounting for 2.0 - 3.5 meq/L (KH = 5.6
- 9.8 or 100 - 175 ppm)
When I do my readings I am in the OK range for the API kit
although I "think" I would like to be around 12. When I
read the Seachem test I am low although their recommendations are
for an aquarium they say my numbers are close to natural sea
water. So because of the "low" pH and "low"
alkalinity I have tried adding all kinds of buffers. Reef
Builder, Reef Buffer, Carbonate Buffer, but nothing seems to get
the pH up above an occasional reading of 8.2 and my KH (API) has
never been over 11 and my Total Alkalinity (Seachem) has never
been over 3.1 meq/l and my Carbonate Alkalinity (SeaChem) has
only once been over 2.0 meq/L.
<Ok'¦. hold fire a bit here! pH 8 is absolutely fine,
especially if you go for a highish (9-10) dKH. It's that
simple. In a small system with no sump, pH 8 is a really good
number.>
So everyone is doing fine with what I have been doing, which
tells me don't mess with a good thing, but "I
think" I want to get my pH to 8.2 - 8.4 and my KH to 12 and
Total Alkalinity to 4-5 meq/l with a Carbonate level around 3
meq/L. What do you think? What am I missing? Am I over thinking
this?
<Yes>
Should I put the Seachem test away and not worry about measuring
Alkalinity that way and breaking out the Borate and
Carbonate?
<I would>
How can I get that pH up?
<I wouldn't>
I can't tell you how much sleep I have lost over this!!!
<Trust me It's not worth it!>
Finally, do you think given my level of water changes that I need
to test for strontium or anything else.
<Not with a 10% water change a week I don't, no. Strontium
is something I have never in my life dosed or tested for>
Those kits are expensive, as was my Magnesium kit,
<The Mag kit is worth it. The Strontium one is not.>
and I have never had to do anything with my Magnesium levels.
They are always over 1250 ppm.
I know this is long but I know the more info I can give you the
better <Info is good, it lets us get a better picture of what
is going on, so don't worry>
the answer I can get and this, to me anyway, is a complex
problem.
<The hobby can be as simple or as complex as you make it. For
a great book on keeping things simple try Tullock's
'Natural Reef Aquariums'>
As always thanks for all you guys do to keep the rest of us from
going crazy and killing more animals than we should!
<It's a pleasure Rob, and thank you for writing so well
and taking the time to write properly. I have made only two
corrections throughout the whole message!>
Rob
Addendum: (sorry!)
I forgot to mention that the amount of skimmate my skimmer
produces usually varies between a pint to half a gallon a
day.
<This is a lot>
Its touchy about how the collection chamber is set as to how wet
or dry the skimmate is.
<It wants to be dry>
The last few days though I have gotten almost nothing maybe a cup
over a 3 -4 day period.
<The amount of skimmate will depend on many things including
your livestock, system size, skimmer size, feeding regime, other
filtration being used etc. etc. Statements that you read such as
'your skimmer should be producing one cup per day' etc.
is utter baloney. Just make sure that it is working, cleaned
regularly and producing a foam that sticks to the cup>
I have even lowered the collection cup. The skimmer seems to be
functioning properly there just isn't much foam at all.
<Have you taken this apart to check it is functioning as it
should and there are no blockages? Have you cleaned the pump
& impellor?>
Thanks,
Rob
<Simon>
|
|
Re: Nitrate and Alkalinity Issues
8/10/11
Dear Bob,
<Simon with you Rob as Bob is away talking fish>
First, thank you (and Simon) for all your input and the great
references.
<No problem>
I already ordered the book. I really appreciate your time and
advice. I do have a few questions about your responses. I hope
you don't mind. (It would be great to sit and discuss these
things in more detail than we can do by email, but we work with
what we have and its better than nothing for sure!)
<No problem>
With regards to the bio-rings, would leaving them there not just
provide additional surface area for nitrifying bacteria similar
to having more live rock?
<Better to have live rock, for all of the additional benefits
it brings, than artificial media. These will trap debris and lead
to higher nitrates as well>
The rationale I have used in putting the Polyfilter in on a
continuous basis is, in my experience, once things start to go
bad its often to late to fix the problem. So while the Polyfilter
is a bit expensive, its is not prohibitively so. To me this is an
instance of an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
<This is fine>
I was running activated carbon (AC) but the recent research that
indicates it likely causes HLLE,
<It was certain types of low quality dusty lignite carbons
that were implicated here.
http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/content/activated-carbon-hlle-smoking-gun-found
. Using a good quality pellet carbon is not 'likely' to
cause HLLE at all, and most marine aquarists use these good
quality carbons not poor ones. There are many other causes for
HLLE which are far more important than carbon, mostly
inappropriate housing, diet and care with carbon often used as an
'excuse' for the aquarists poor husbandry of their
fishes>
coupled with some data the manufacturer provided me with and
input on the WWM forum, swayed me to using the Polyfilter over
AC.
<Polyfilter is a good product and it is fine to use
continuously if you can afford it>
I totally agree with you that leaving this filter in for a
relatively long period of time would result in it trapping a lot
of debris. That is why I put the filter on top of it. I do change
this upper filter once a week. This prevents the Polyfilter from
trapping debris and gets the larger organic matter out of the
tank once a week.
I do not have much of a problem with particulates in general, but
I feed New Spectrum pellets a couple of times a week, and
although it is supposed to sink, a lot of it floats and ends up
in the skimmer box and I definitely don't want it going
through my pump.
<All this will do is go through your system and feed the
'critters', and/ or be pulled out by the skimmer. Not a
problem>
This arrangement also allows me to suck out the vast majority of
the food that ends up in the skimmer box with a turkey baster.
Removing it from the system before it even has a chance to break
down.
<This is good practice>
Given my use and rationale would you still change the set-up?
<I would do whatever you are most comfortable with. These
medias and sponges are often the cause of high nitrates however,
and you wrote in stating a problem with high nitrates>
Also I read the articles you suggested regarding the Berlin
Method. I have noticed most sumps/refugia produced these days
have a wet/dry component or filter sock in the first chamber and
the protein skimmer in the last chamber (essentially equivalent
to my current system).
<The Berlin method is live rock and protein skimming, this is
the basis for 99% of all reef tanks today. For the best way to
set up a sump/ refuge see here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/refugium.htm. Nowadays the skimmer is
usually placed first, so that it does not remove any beneficial
plankton produced in the refuge. Filter socks are optional, if
you have problems with sedimentation in your water. If not, then
leave them out.>
This is counter to the article. Has anyone done the research to
see if this makes a difference?
<Yes, plenty of people have tried every configuration under
the sun>
I ask this not just because of my current set-up, but also
because as, I mentioned, I just got a 90 gal and want to put a
sump/refugium under it. If the article is correct, and the
skimmer should come first, do I need to put my DIY skills to work
for the sump/refugium for the 90 instead of buying a commercially
available product? (I'm kind of hoping you say yes because I
think it would be a fun project).
<I would, definitely yes! DIY sumps are cheaper, and if you do
them right, better>
I have more questions about the filtration for the 90 but I will
save that for another time.
<I can answer them now in one sentence... live rock and
protein skimming with a refugium>
With regard to the hermit crabs. I removed the one from the
refugia per your suggestion. Thank you. From what I had read, I
was under the impression that particular species was an
herbivore.
<No such thing as a herbivorous crab. They are all
omnivorous>
With regard to the main tank, again, everything I have read seems
to give fairly large numbers of hermits for the cleanup crew.
<Many people put hundreds of hermits in their systems.. why I
don't know, all they usually do is cause trouble by eating
things they should not.>
I have already decided when the 90 is up and running that
Halloween is moving on up
<Cue lady with big hair and voice...>
along with the Blue Hippo.
<I have two Halloweens in my tank, I like them>
He is a demolition machine in this small reef tank. Would just a
couple of dwarf hermits be enough to keep up in that size
tank?
<Yes>
Thank you for the compliments on the writing. I try to do the
best I can to make life easier for you and because I think the
art of composition is dying in the computer age.
<Heee! Along with the advent of poor handwriting>
I hope I have maintained my good standing with this letter.
<Yes, it is great, thank you>
Thanks to you and all the crew for doing all you do, and all the
knowledge and information you provide. You are making me a better
aquarist and reef keeper. That also means my daughter will be a
better aquarist and reef keeper. Thus you are not only helping
this generation, you are helping the next to be successful, and
saving many many animals in the process! That's a nice
legacy!
<Wow!>
Thanks again,
Rob
<No problem, Rob. Simon>
|
Re: water chemistry question... Alk. anomaly & Red Sea
synthetic/borate, & salt mix issues f's 3/8/11
Thank you for the response Bob!
<Welcome Adam!>
I've been waiting a while before writing you back because I wanted
to be sure I had isolated the exact problem. While things improved a
little when I increased the pH of my tank, that situation did not hold
and my Acroporas started to deteriorate again soon after. However,
after a couple weeks of testing every day, I believe I've
discovered, and corrected the real culprit:
<Ah, good>
As I mentioned, I had just recently switched to a new Red Sea salt,
which is the first time I've ever used a salt that is evaporated
directly from the ocean, I've always used synthetic salts. Shortly
there after, I started using baking soda. For the past year and a half,
my daily/weekly maintenance routine on my tank has involved testing
alkalinity, calcium and magnesium levels, and I do more thorough tests
for things like borate alkalinity specifically, strontium, iodide,
silicates, etc. monthly.
<Ok>
I upped my testing to daily for most of those parameters since I wrote
you last, but with a special focus on the alkalinity component because
the tissue damage I was seeing looked so much like the Alk crash my
tank went through before I set up the auto-doser. In that time,
I've done two largish water changes. It turns out the naturally
evaporated sea salt has a much higher borate concentration than the
synthetic salts
<Yes... there are some brands that do this... for a couple of
reasons>
I've used in the past, which have almost no borate. The volume of
carbonate solution my auto-doser is set to dispense was also determined
based on the reef specific carbonate source I was using before I
switched to baking soda.
While my dKH has stayed relatively constant, each time I did a water
change, my total alkalinity would spike, and then over the course of a
couple of days return to 'normal' levels. What was actually
happening was that over time, the salt was adding far more borate to my
water than my tank was consuming, and the baking soda solution
wasn't concentrated enough to keep up with the carbonate demand at
the set dispensing volume.
<This is an apt description... what was likely occurring>
Each water change my relative concentration of borate was increasing,
so the total alkalinity test continued to return 'normal'
values. In the time between one water change, my carbonate alkalinity
fell to as low as 1.79 meq/L,
<Yikes>
only to be propped back up to 'safe' levels by another water
change (when magically, things would start to look better), then start
to fall again.
This repeated stress over the course of a month+ lead to the problems I
saw.
I'm now testing for both borate alkalinity and carbonate alkalinity
separately every other day, and have adjusted my auto-doser
accordingly. My total alkalinity is now on the high side at 4.64 meq/L
(or about 13 dKH), but my carbonate concentration 3.4 meq/L (about 9.5
dKH). It will take a while for the tissue that burnt to fully recover,
but already the reversal is night and day - the tips have their colour
and 'fleshiness' back, the surviving polyps are out in full
force, and the corals are already starting to plate over the areas that
died. It appears the carbon and biopellet reactors had nothing to do
with it!
<Agreed>
Again, thank you for your time. I don't know where I would be
without WWM - well, I do know, I would have a tank full of dead
coral.
Adam
<Thank you for your valuable insights offered here. You have helped
many others, myself included. Cheers, BobF>
Re: High Alkalinity... incl. RO issues - 2/9/11
HI Bob,
I took it to the source and tested the water in my reservoir that is
pending a water change and found the dkH to be 11 which now explains
why my water changes have been proving fruitless.
<Perhaps time to... oh I see you address the RO below>
I just finished changing all the filters in my RO, added salt to my
softener and retested and found the levels to be the same
<?! No... this is the reading out of the RO? Summat is wrong w/ the
RO...
Do check your plumbing... perhaps the insertion of cartridges. RO water
should have near zero alkalinity, TDS, slightly reductive pH>
with a PH of 8.0
I just finished testing my tank and I have the following numbers
CA 389
Alk 15 dkH
PH 8.53
I have a very slow bubble count coming out of my calcium reactor in
hopes that it will help bring these numbers down but this currently
appears pointless
Is there anything that I can do to my water to bring the alkalinity
down?
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated
Chris
<I'd dilute w/ the use of some RO water (try w/ half this and
half regular tap to all RO). Bob Fenner>
Low Alkalinity 2/6/11
Hello Crew,
<BD>
I have read about water chemistry on your site and do weekly testing
and water change, and am currently dosing only Seachem Reef Buffer, and
weekly iodine. PH has improved (from 7.8 to 8.2), but alkalinity has
not budged and remains at dKH = 5 .
<Mmmm>
I'm unsure if I should just continue with water changes and PH
Buffer as I have been, or would a different alkalinity supplement be
needed to bring alkalinity up in my case (my water and other tank
parameters below)?
<Need to know other circumstances and measures (Ca and Mg
principally) of this system>
I have written previously to you of my experience using Seachem Reef
Builder with some of my fish reacting with itching and skin erosion,
and I did contact the company but was told this had never happened to
anyone else. Since I am sure that I was correct in my dosage for water
volume as well as in my method of application, and had the same
occurrence multiple times, I have no confidence in using that type of
additive. (It gets hot when you mix with small amount of water, so to
me that says a lot about it's potential for skin irritation on
fish).
Anyway, thanks in advance for any further advice you can give,
Wendy Dyke
180 gal system w/ 16 fish, all less than 3 inches except for Regal Tang
at 5" (I do feed heavily and want to continue this):
PH 8.2 after increasing water changes and Seachem Reef Buffer usage for
couple of weeks (up from 7.8)
SG 1.025-1.026 consistently with RO top off
Water change (and filter maintenance) weekly 5-10 gal Calcium 400
<And Mg.?>
150 gal Protein skimmer getting 1 cup dark green skimmate per week
(increasing production gives light skimmate so I have not)
Flow Airline/ 5 medium size Koralias/ 2 Mag pumps for sump return in
180 gal system.
50 gal system w/ Ocellaris pair and jawfish:
PH 8.2 after increasing water changes and Seachem Reef Buffer usage for
couple of weeks (up from 7.8)
SG 1.025-1.026 consistently with RO top off
Water change (and filter maintenance) weekly 2-5 gal
Calcium 400
75 gal Protein skimmer producing 1 cup of skimmate per week.
HOT filter/ airline/ 2 small Koralia
<Do see SeaChem's website: http://www.seachem.com/Home/index.html
re other alkalinity and biomineral products. I would switch to their
Reef Complete
Bob Fenner>
Low KH, SW 1/24/11
Hi
<Hello Benita>
I am hoping someone can help!
<We'll try.>
First a bit about my system:- 135 litre with sump, and skimmer, 15 kg
live rock, fish = two Clownfish, three chromis and one Tailspot Blenny,
invertebrates = two cleaners, three Sexy Shrimp, one Porcelain Crab,
one Pom Pom Crab and snails. Corals three soft corals (one is a huge
leather mushroom) Zoas, mushrooms and one Duncan. I change around 10
liters of water a week, have an auto top up (evap is around ten liters
a week open top tank) Temp 26, salinity 1026, pH 8, nitrite 0, nitrate
5, ammonia 0. This below is the problem.
About two months ago I changed my salt over to a new brand ( a two part
salt one solid one liquid) which my LFS recommended, due to the fact my
KH was low then at 7,
<Doesn't make any sense changing salt to correct the KH
problem.>
(changed from Red Sea Coral Pro) Since starting I am having problems
with high Ca 650 and high Mag 1750 but low KH 4. Is the KH the problem
with the ca and Mag been too high?
<The high calcium could have some effect.>
My fish, shrimps, crabs and corals seem fine , but the snails I have
already lost two and a couple of the others do not move very much, one
fell off the glass and stayed on its back since!
<This may be an Astrea Snail, they are not able to right themselves,
a little help will be needed by you.>
The salt company said they would do tests on my water if I sent them a
sample, which I did, they did not receive it until three weeks later,
would the water still be correct after all this time?
<Some parameters should be.>
Anyway they have come up with the a slightly lower Ca 650 and Mag 1485
and KH 5,7 they also tested Chlor which they say is perfect. They
recommend me to use a buffer for the KH and dose with a ca and Mag
stabilizer.
<I would just use a buffer to raise dKH to 7-10. Regular water
changes will lower the calcium and magnesium by way of
dilution.>
Can you please advise as this is confusing me, are they correct? I
don't want to start the regime of dosing for no reason, would it be
better to change back to the old salt?
<I would not use any stabilizers, but do the water changes until
parameters are back where they should be. I'm thinking you may have
been overdosing calcium and magnesium before you changed the salt mix.
There are no salt mixes that I am aware of that would raise calcium and
magnesium to the levels you presently have. In smaller systems such as
yours, overdosing can/will raise levels quickly.>
Thank you
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
regards
Benita
2 Part Dosing, High Levels 1/7/11
Evening Crew,
<Good morning Chris>
At the beginning of this week, I shut down my calcium reactor electing
to try out the 2 part dosing method.
<Mmmm.>
When testing my initial levels I found that the alkalinity level was
high at 17 dKH and ph was 8.42.
I attributed the high alkalinity to the Instant Ocean salt that I was
using so completed a 10% water change and have been dosing calcium only
in hopes that I could get it up to 400 ppm and at the same time force
the lowering of the alkalinity levels.
<IO doesn't mix at that high a dKH, likely from the two part
dosing. I'm not a fan of two part dosing, but if this is what your
preferred method is, do not dose both products the same
day/time.>
Yesterday I had my calcium level at 371 ppm and Alk at 18 so again just
dosed with Calcium working on the same initial belief.
Today my levels are totally skewed !Calcium dropped to 316.7,
Alkalinity soared to 21 dKH and my PH is at 9.09.
<Makes sense as high levels of dKH causes calcium to
precipitate.>
What should I do?
I am going to complete another water change momentarily to try and
bring some of the levels down
I am not going to dose anything tonight
Please advise your thoughts
<I would not dose anything until your dKH gets down to an acceptable
level (7-9dKH).
Weekly 10-15% water changes will help by dilution of the carbonates
present in your system.
Thanks in advance
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Chris
Re 2 Part Dosing, High Levels 1/7/11
I just retested and recalibrated my pH monitor...pH now comes in a
8.4..am thinking that it may be time for a new probe as I had just
calibrated it 4 days ago.
<Possibly so, but never check the pH after you have dosed, may get
an erroneous reading.>
Anyway, based on this new test, I just added the daily dose of calium
<calcium> and I'll see how I look tomorrow.
<Why are you dosing calcium with a high dKH? I'd concentrate on
lowering your dKH, way too high at 17.>
Ugh, why can it never be easy.
<It isn't all that difficult once you gain some knowledge about
water chemistry. A good place to start
is here. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/calcalkmar.htm>
I've read that Magnesium helps equalize the 2 factors...I
haven't started adding that yet as I wanted to get the other levels
down..I'm thinking that maybe I should start testing and
dosing.
Let me know your thoughts.
<I did let you know my thoughts and have made suggestions, why ask
again.
Magnesium does not equalize anything. Magnesium is major element of
seawater and is needed on a 3/1 ratio with calcium to enable corals
absorb available calcium.>
Thanks again
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Re 2 Part Dosing, High Levels 1/7/11
The 2 messages were sent back to back. I wasn't asking again and
comments like that are not really needed.
<Mmm, I wouldn't call Thursday and Friday back to back messages,
and you did respond to my original response so there was no other way I
could look at it. Sorry. James (Salty Dog)>
Chris
Low Alkalinity even with a CR, Calcium Reactor
11/12/10
I really am puzzled. I've read your articles on Calcium and
Alkalinity and found that a CR is considered a great way to maintain
proper levels of CA and KH.
<Can be... though there are "variations" on how to
"do this", and anomalies... mostly re core/media and quality
of CO2 et al. reductant applied>
I have a CR in my 125g tank but I don't have many SPS corals. As a
result, I saw my CA rising to pretty high levels (500+) so I dialed the
drip rate back considerably.
<Might I ask you to measure, report the effluent pH of your reactant
discharge water?>
I concluded that I was putting more CA in my tank than was being
consumed. As a result of the reduced drip rate, I now have a KH of 6.
My CA is at about 460.
<These are fine measures, levels>
To raise my KH a bit, I've begun an old routine of dosing KH
<I take it you mean/t Kalkwasser. This practice, addendum is fine as
well>
using a pump that comes on for 1 minute at a time 3 times during the
night, i.e. 2 a.m., 4 a.m., and 6 a.m. The drip rate is very slow to
avoid a spike and hopefully raise the KH to about 7 or 8 over time.
<Ok>
My real question is why does my CR not maintain the CA and KH as
expected at proper levels?
<Mmm, see the above statement. What/which media are you using? Do
you have "high" quality "acid"... CO2 likely
employed? What re your Magnesium concentration?>
Is the answer as simple as I really don't need a CR?
<Perhaps... what is your desire for using such?>
I would appreciate your thoughts on this.
Regards,
-gene
<Let's keep chatting this up Gene; till you're satisfied w/
your understanding. Bob Fenner>
Re: Low Alkalinity even with a CR 11/12/10
Hello Bob -- nice to hear from you! Hope you are doing well. Enjoyed
seeing you in Orlando.
<Ahh, a very nice time>
The effluent readings from my CR are as follows: CA=460; KH=8 --
haven't tested the pH but will do so ASAP and report.
<These are fine values... as long as the pH is not below 6.0 I would
not change much here>
The media is CaribSea A.R.M.
<Ah yes... a "natural" (with too much shell/calcite IMO)
product. There are others. Do try another brand next purchase>
My CR is a dual chamber design -- and I use a PinPoint controller -- I
can provide HI and LO settings if you want them.
<Nice!>
The dosing I'm doing to raise KH is Soda Ash I get from Bulk Reef
Supply --
<A worthy company in my estimation>
I tested the change in pH today when the pump is on for 1 minute. It
changed the pH by .05, i.e. from 8.10 to 8.15. This is occurring 3
times during the night.
<Is fine... again, I would not change this, these settings>
I use 2 different test kits: API and Salifert -- the readings are
fairly similar, with Salifert more precise.
<Ah yes>
Really appreciate your help. I invested some serious money in this CR
-- hoping that it would make life easier -- and for most I think it
does.
<It does, and will do more if/when you are more "into"
biomineralizing life>
Just can figure out why my CA rises to such high levels using it.
<Simply put there is more soluble calcium in the A.R.M. CaribSea
product than ready carbonate, bicarbonate... Again, you can/could make
this up in a few ways... as you are currently doing, simply adding some
"baking soda"...>
That's why I backed off on the effluent drip rate -- CA was going
off the chart. Now, of course, CA is more reasonable with KH in
decline. With your help -- we might get this puppy dialed in
properly.
Regards,
-gene
<And you, BobF>
Re: Low Alkalinity even with a CR 11/12/10
Here ya go, sir.
All numbers from the effluent:
pH = 7.6
<Whoa! I'd turn up the CO2>
CA=450 (Salifert)
KH=10.4 (Salifert)
CA=460-480 (API)
KH=9 (API)
pH of the sump water, i.e. display tank too -- 8.0 to 8.1 (calibrated
today)
What media do you recommend for my CR?
-gene
<... Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/calcreacmedia.htm
You can skip our corr.! B>
Re: Low Alkalinity even with a CR 11/12/10
Hey Bob -- would increasing the CO2 really do any good when using a
controller?
<Mmm, yes; if the means/extremes of the setting will allow further
infusion...>
i.e. wouldn't it simply speed up the process of lowering the pH of
the effluent but not really change the pH of the effluent?
<If the lower setting is not reached as yet, yes>
I guess you can tell -- I have limited experience and understanding of
this whole process!
Thanks,
-gene
<I'd try experimenting here a bit... changing the bubble rate,
pH setting/s on your controller. BobF>
Re: Low Alkalinity even with a CR 11/13/10
I made the change yesterday afternoon. Will check the effluent later
today and report
Gene
<Real good. B>
Excessive buffering requirements 5/8/10
Hi,
I have just started my first saltwater aquarium and am aiming for a pH
of 8.0 at night and 8.1 in the day, but from the first beginning I have
had trouble getting there.
I can get to 8.1 just barely, but only by adding 40 mls of Seachem
Marine buffer or Reef Carbonate daily which doesn't raise the
alkalinity only maintains it.
<...?>
The pH is measured with a calibrated Pinpoint pH monitor.
Increasing aeration, removing aquarium covers and opening windows
didn't help.
<Mmm, summat up here... there's only a few inputs/outputs to
consider/check in such cases... the tester/s themselves... sources...
synthetic salt mix, carbonaceous materials (substrate, rock,
skeletons...), exogenous
additions/supplements, reductive materials (e.g. foods...)... Have you
read re on WWM?>
Aquarium: 10 weeks old, 85 gallons (24" deep), mostly covered, but
6" fan used for cooling canopy, Seachem reef salt, 52 lbs live
rock, 80 lbs Arag-alive sand, 30 pounds crushed coral, Marineland C-360
filter, Remora Pro skimmer, 2 airstones (HiBlow 40 air pump, so large
volume of air at that depth not a problem), 2 powerheads (600gph
total), lighting Coralife 48" T5 H/O 108 W.
Livestock: 3 small green Chromis, 1 small blue hippo tang, 2 cleaner
shrimp, highly effective cleaner crew
Chemistry (checked with standards and with different brand): s.g.
1.0230
(47.8 mS), NH4 - 0, NO2 - 0, NO3 - 10, alkalinity - 4.5 meq/l, Ca -
440,
<What re your Magnesium concentration?>
PO4 - .07, pO2 saturated at 78F during the day and drops by 1-2 ppm at
night, I don't have a magnesium test.
<Oh, I'd get, use one>
I haven't tried Kalkwasser or the 2 part buffers. I would
eventually like to have a sea star and would like to get to a more
stable and possibly higher pH. I could just keep adding the buffers,
but it seems like a lot.
I am wondering what is consuming all the buffer.
Kim
<Time to have you peruse what we have archived. Read:
http://wetwebmedia.com/marine/maintenance/maintindex.htm
scroll down to the sections on pH, Alkalinity... troubleshooting...
it's taking too long for me to download the URLs here. Bob
Fenner>
Re excessive buffering requirements 5/11/10
Hi,
So previously I had tried opening a window for an afternoon with no
effect. Tried again and after a day and a half the pH dropped from 8.1
to 8.2 with no additives
<Tested in the morning?>
and the buffer requirements dropped from 40 mls/day to 20 mls every 4
days.
<Ahh! You have a tightly sealed home>
Also bought a CO detector for the house.
<Ah, good idea>
Building code requires a fresh air intake for the furnace which is not
blocked but obviously cannot be relied on. Thank-you for the useful web
site.
Kim
<Welcome Kim. BobF>
Re: Sudden deaths/algae outbreak, using WWM
3/7/10
Hi Crew(Bob)
<Michael>
Thanks for your reply
<Welcome>
Yes, I am familiar with your site
But maybe I need to understand the search tools better.
<Mmm, I won't make excuses for the breadth of subject material
covered, nor say much re its organization/presentation here. My analog
(four drawer file cabinets) and hard drive arrangement is mirrored
on/as WWM... with topics presented in first to medium to last order,
the organism groups arrayed logically, historically per the more
recent, standard works in respective fields>
So my DKH is way to <too> high, and I need to bring it down. Am I
right or wrong in the following: I need to bring DKH down and Ca up, by
doing water changes and adding Calcium (Tropic Marin Bio calcium)
<Mmm, simple water changes with a decent brand of synthetic salt mix
will do likely>
I usually add the calcium to the tank
<... In the way of what product/s?>
directly via the sump,
<Not a good idea... better by far to mix up with pre-made, stored
seawater.. Again, this is all gone over and over on the site>
I have two small pumps there to aerate the water and to help make the
calcium dissolve faster. When topping off evaporated water, I add newly
made R/O water mixed with a buffer to correct PH(Usually Salifert)
value to that of the tank(8.3)I add it directly to the sump. Is that
alright?
<Read>
Another thing could I add the R/O water without buffering it?
<Depends on what your system water is>
and thereby bringing down DKH? Or is there any danger connected to
that?
I just don`t understand how the DKH got that high?
<I'd first check your test gear... and read...>
I must say that water chemistry can be a bit confusing sometimes.
Regarding the nitrates what I meant was that when I tested the tank
water it read out 0, but the R/O came out with the reading
5(Salifert)
<There is summat wrong either with your RO or test kit>
Thanks for your help
<Read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/marine/maintenance/maintindex.htm
scroll down... Re Alkalinity, this and Calcium, Magnesium...
BobF>
Re: Help, sudden weird numbers 2/10/10
Simon,
<Melanie>
Perhaps I was not clear enough. the alkalinity is 5.4 dKH,
<Ahhh... the units.. essential in order to answer your question
correctly, and as you have omitted them initially I have not answered
correctly>
which, correct me if I'm wrong, but I am led to believe is low.
<Yes. Have you checked your test kit? Your high pH will be from a
combination of factors, including the addition of the alkalinity
supplement. You can add soda water or vinegar to lower it, assuming you
have tested correctly.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-03/rhf/index.php>
I did not intentionally mean to insult my pets by not capitalising
their names, but their species names are not proper nouns.
<I did not mean to be rude, but I am a volunteer and I spend a lot
of time correcting e-mails when I should be answering pertinent
questions>
I thought you would prefer the species names rather than their
"given" names which we call them at home, such as Carl, Jake
and Elwood, Bart, etc.
<Not a helpful comment..>
My grammar as far as I can tell, is acceptable, and I have included all
that I felt was pertinent. I am confused by the question marks after my
numbers, are you incredulous or do they not make sense?
<I was surprised, is all.>
We have been conscientious reef keepers since we began, and I have
tried to be as concise as possible. I am understandably a little
worried about the tank, and wrote the email in a hurry. You also failed
to mention the
couple of spelling mistakes in it.
<This is my own time and I don't have enough of it to go through
each message with a toothcomb..>
Yes, I double tested each result, and I checked both the internet and
my own reference books looking for answers. Perhaps you would prefer if
I don't bother you again. We live 6 hours away from any store that
can help us, so you were my next choice.
<Well, I am sorry if I have upset you Melanie, I hope that my free
of charge advice has been more helpful this time, Simon>
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