New Pandas also Re: Epsom salts, peacock gudgeons and blockages     10/11/17
Thanks Neale and Bob for your replies. And Hi Crew! Thought you would like an update on how my poor gudgeon is doing, and I have some extra troubles which I will get to later in this email.
<Oh dear.>
I kept watching the display tank after it was treated with Epsom salts and could see the prolapsed portion of the affected gudgeon had shrunk by half overnight and looked much better.
<Good.>
However after a full day many of the other peacock gudgeons were showing some stress colouration and hiding, so I performed the scheduled water change. By the following morning the gudgeons were back to normal, but
prolapse was back to its original size. I took the plunge and managed to catch the affected gudgeon by tricking him with food. If they get the idea they are in trouble they can dart and jump surprisingly quickly but I was
very lucky to catch him off guard. Anyway after 3 or 4 days in his own tank, and after treatment with what I hope is Metronidazole (bought off the internet due to not being readily available in Australia, the packaging is slightly unconvincing), the prolapse had reduced down again but did not yet resolve.
<The Metronidazole is a good thought here, as prolapses of this type are sometimes a reaction to parasites inside the gut.>
The gudgeon was becoming very stressed so I put him back into the display tank. It's been over a week and he is back to his normal self behaviourally. The prolapse has still not resolved but it is not as big as it was, or at least, it looks fleshier and a lot less likely to burst than it used to so I will keep my eye on him and continue to be mindful of what I feed that tank. No one died so I am counting that as a win for now!
<Indeed. Such things do take weeks to resolve. So like Dropsy, if the fish is getting incrementally better, and still eating, that's good!>
I'm writing now about an old familiar problem - trying to keep some new panda Corydoras alive. My existing school of 6 panda Corys is quite happy and doing well (thanks for your help in getting them to that point!) and I
had the idea that the tank they are in has room for a bigger school.
Originally I wanted to try some pygmy Corydoras in a separate species tank but I saw pandas had become available again for quite a cheap price. I ordered 15 expecting to lose a few but hoping to keep enough alive to
eventually expand the existing crew and I'm using the unused pygmy Cory tank for the quarantine tank. The store sent me 16 pandas (and also 2 sterbai Corys by mistake instead of trilineatus), but unfortunately put all
the pandas in the same bag. 4 died in transit, but the rest seemed mostly quite lively and feisty after getting into some fresh water. I lost 1 more from quarantine in the first few hours, one overnight, and then one more on
the following day. This last one had his barbels curled under him and his gill covers looked like they were stuck open. I suspect it was just residual damage from being in poor water conditions during shipping.
<Agreed, but the "cheap price" might also suggest less than perfect breeding conditions. Sometimes fish are maintained poorly, but "juiced" on antibiotics, which keeps them alive on the fish farm. Once shipped, the
drugs where off, and you're stuck with sickly fish. Careful quarantining, good food, and judicious medical treatment as needed can help though, so all is not lost!>
The remaining 8 pandas are still lively and have good appetites, and the 2 sterbai seem much the same although definitely more nervous due to their small school size. The zoomy pandas seem to terrify them even though the
sterbai are three times the size.
<Corydoras sterbai do need warmish water to stay healthy, 25-28 C, so they're not quite as adaptable to lower-end tropical conditions as other members of the genus. On the other hand, they're good choices for Angelfish, Discus and Gourami set-ups where high temperatures are needed.>
I am using the refund from the dead fish/wrong fish to buy a few more sterbai so eventually they will be in a comfortable school size - they definitely behave differently than the pandas and trilineatus that I already have so I am looking forward to setting them up in their own tank.
The current quarantine tank is 65lt with a fine sandy bottom and I have been doing daily 20lt water changes and vacuuming out uneaten food trying to give these guys as clean an environment as possible to recover. They
have been getting live grindal worms and some small pellet food and none of the survivors seem skinny like a few were when they first arrived. I am mixing up their water to be the same as the water my existing panda Corys
live in as that's where I want to move them to after quarantine is over, so medium softness and temp is 24C.
<Understood.>
Anyway now to the problems. After the quarantine population stabilized I noticed 2 of the pandas had thickened white patches on their fins, faces, and one had a coated barbel on one side which was twice as thick as it
should be. Very difficult to see what's going on with white on white but I thought it looked like fungus so began treatment with a Multicure product (malachite green, Methylene blue, Acriflavine, supposed to be good vs.
fungus and some external parasites).
<Sounds about right; Methylene Blue is a good first choice for fungus infections. Low toxicity, even with baby fish and eggs.>
After 2 days of this treatment there was no improvement and the patches were thicker so I began to worry that it was actually the dreaded Columnaris instead. I couldn't actually see any fibrous or fuzzy growths, the white patches seem more flattened and blobby than anything. All I had at hand was some tri-sulfa (which does say it can treat Columnaris on the label) and I remember reading somewhere that Columnaris will not tolerate salt.
<Possibly true, but can't imagine the salt level needed would be tolerated by Corydoras for long. I'd be using a plain vanilla antibacterial treatment here instead. Salt is almost never useful against fungus or bacterial infections at "safe" freshwater levels.>
I also checked to make sure I could mix tri-sulfa and the other product and as far as I could tell all would be well. I have had tri-sulfa and salt in the tank for 2 days now (this is the third day) and re-dosed as required, accounting for the water changes I did (additional to the existing course of Multicure). I added equivalent of 5 tsp of salt on the first day, and another 5 on the second day, dripped it in slowly via airline. The fish are all tolerating this well. I know Corydoras can handle more salt than this after having success treating Ich this way, but I don't know if that level of salt is required to treat Columnaris (or even if that's what I'm fighting here).
<I do suspect you are right: the 2 gram/litre level used for Whitespot is easily tolerated by freshwater fish, but for bacterial and fungal infections you'd surely need a lot more -- bear in mind marine fish can get both!>
I am holding off on adding more salt for now pending further advice.
<See above.>
I'm a bit worried that my water conditioner has reacted with the Multicure as it seems like a lot of it has come out of solution and settled on the sand (or perhaps just the top layer of sand is now dyed green).
<One risk with organic dyes like Malachite Green and Methylene Blue is precisely this. Tends to fade away in time, but not always. The blue is generally overlooked, looking watery I suppose, but the green is more annoying, it is true.>
The first dosage I put in stained the water quite dark for a couple of days but the second dose looks to be almost gone overnight, even though I followed the instructions and didn't use it immediately after the water change. Anyway there is still no improvement and the white patches are spreading to the other Corys. Yesterday one of the sterbai had a patch on his forehead although that is gone today, but a lighter patch of skin is visible in that place. I now realise tri-sulfa is bacteriostatic rather than bacteriocidal and probably won't get rid of Columnaris by itself, but I thought if I kept the Corys eating well they might be able to fight it off. The package for this medication says I can double the dosage for severe cases and I am considering doing this as I only used the single dose to start with.
<Follow the instructions, and remember to remove carbon from the filter, if used.>
Since I've had no success so far and it is spreading, today I had the idea that maybe this is slime coat disease (Costia?) and not a fungus or bacteria. The most notable thing is that it seems the extremities of the fish (fins, barbels) are affected much moreso than their bodies. Where it is on their faces, it's mostly around their nostrils, and it is on the fins that are closest to the substrate.
<This is not uncommon. It's usually explained in terms of a scratchy substrate, or a dirty substrate, or both. The belly and barbels are scratched, bacteria infect the wounds, and something similar to Finrot sets in. Indeed, it probably is the same Aeromonas and Pseudomonas bacteria at work. That said, there are mystery plagues or red-blotch diseases associated with Corydoras that don't have any definite aetiology. A broad spectrum antibiotic is helpful, but with the Corydoras moved to a substrate-free aquarium for the process, so that the skin has time to heal over properly as well.>
The one with a patch on his body seems like it spread there from his fin.
The Cory with one affected barbel now has both barbels coated. It seems like it covers the entire surface of some of their fins. I have not seen any redness anywhere on the Corys but maybe that symptom would not show up
on fins (or can't be seen under the thick coating).
I would have thought Costia would be affected by the ingredients in Multicure, if that's what this disease is, however if the Multicure is being cancelled by the water conditioner it would explain why the disease is spreading. If the disease is Columnaris it also explains why it is spreading quickly, although I would have hoped triple sulfa would have slowed it down. I do have some eSHa Exit available which I didn't use yet, as I am not keen on mixing up my medications. I had assumed it had similar ingredients to Multicure however I found a webpage stating it contains Acridine, Malachite Green, Meth.Violet, Meth. Blue so not quite the same.
So it might work differently I guess?
<Indeed.>
At this point I am wondering what your opinion is of this disease and how I should be treating it. I am fairly sure by now that this is not fungus as the water has been kept quite clean, I haven't seen any obvious hairy fuzz,
and it has not responded to that treatment. I hope it's not Columnaris, but if it is, it's taking its time on killing off all my fish and they aren't really acting unwell. I've had advice that Kanaplex will work on Columnaris but at this point I don't have access to any (although I could ask my vet when I take my cats in tomorrow) however, obviously antibiotics are pointless if this is Costia. But if it's Costia, why didn't the first treatment get rid of it (maybe because it's not as good as eSHa Exit)? I'm hoping you have some ideas or tips as to what to do next.
<Costia is frustrating because it can't be easily diagnosed without a microscope. While some fish are prone to it, others aren't, and to some degree it's "the thing you suspect next" if fungal and Finrot bacterial infections have been dismissed. It's all very annoying.>
I'll attach some pictures but its quite hard to see since everything is kind of green, I have a terrible camera, and the Corys are tiny and won't sit still. They are still very white, reflective and you can see some of their internal structures and iridescent bits showing through which looks like white patches on their bodies but isn't.
<Indeed, I can see what you're talking about clearly. I'd be assuming the substrate and bacteria are somehow the issue, and treating as described above. I'd also double check the tank is Corydoras-safe, e.g., you used smooth silver sand rather than sharp sand.>
When the extra sterbai Cory arrive they are going to have their own separate quarantine well away from this tank since it is a bit of a disaster area. I'm lucky to have a very understanding spouse who has let me set up many tanks around the house!
Thanks as always for your help, your experience and advice is invaluable.
Cheers,
Bronwen
<Hope this helps. Cheers, Neale.>

Re: New Pandas also Re: Epsom salts, peacock gudgeons and blockages     10/11/17
Thanks Neale for your quick reply.
<Welcome.>
Regarding the sand, it is an extremely fine river sand which I had left over from my other Corydoras tank which has been running for over a year now, no issues with the sand. It's very smooth and inert and I've put a thin layer for comfort more than anything. Fresh from the bag and rinsed before using here. Only one of the Corys has anything on his barbels but I can see the sense of sucking out the sand for now so that it doesn't provide a hiding place for the bacteria. I can do that during the next water change and it also gives me a chance to see if the green will rinse off.
<Indeed.>
No carbon in the filter at the moment but I have some fresh stuff at hand in case I needed to remove medication from the water.
<Understood, though rarely necessary; most organic medications will decompose rapidly in mature tanks.>
I do have a microscope but I understand Costia are small and hard to identify and my scope only goes to 100x - useful for larger parasites but not so much the tiny stuff. It might be worth a try, if I see anything at all zooming around it is indicative that something is going on at that scale as well as anything at a bacterial level. I'll report back if I find anything.
<Cool. Images of Costia aka Ichthyobodo can be found online.>
I'm going to the vet for my cats yearly check up tomorrow so I will ask if he can prescribe me anything to help. I don't think he is a fishy vet but he does have a huge tank with a turtle in it at his surgery so he might know something about aquarium medications. I found some tetracycline at the back of my supplies cabinet but I'm wary of using it on new fish weakened by shipping. Other medications I've heard could be useful are Kanamycin,
neomycin, Nitrofurazone but I guess I have to wait and see what the vet says.
<Indeed; the old Metronidazole and Nitrofurazone combo is a good one, if you can use it.>
Thanks again, at least I feel like I have a battle plan now.
Cheers,
Bronwen
<Good luck! Neale.>

Re: New Pandas also Re: Epsom salts, peacock gudgeons and blockages     10/15/17
Hi Crew! I'm still battling the white blobby patches on my new panda Corydoras so here is an update of what's going on.
<Sure!>
The visit to the vet on Wednesday wasn't much use, he was reluctant to supply any medications without a diagnosis, and was unable to provide a diagnosis himself even if he had a fresh sample - he's more of a
cat/dog/horse vet, despite keeping a turtle.
<Often the case. Medicating fish with help from a vet is the ideal, but rarely practical. It can also get expensive given the low cost of fish, though it has to be said there are fish vets out there, usually specialising in Koi, the best of which reach prices comparable with pedigree dogs and horses! My point being if you have a local or national
Koi club, they might be able to point you in the direction of a fish-friendly vet.>
He did suggest some places that might be able to give me a diagnosis and prescription, but they are all quite far away and mostly oriented towards trout farming so it didn't really help. I don't think I'm getting a prescription any time soon, and not soon enough to help my fish anyway.
Once again I'm thwarted by living in the middle of nowhere!
<Oh!>
I did manage to get a better scraping from one of my Corydoras and some of a white patch came off so I had a look at it under my own microscope. I didn't see any movement at all in any of the sample, and I also didn't see
any fibrous structures so I am much more confident now that it is bacterial and not Costia or fungus.
<Understood.>
The white stuff was fairly sticky so I am guessing it is either fish slime or a bacterial film. Zoomed in, it looked a lot like the chunks you get when you stir up gelatin jelly. Not much else to see at x100, my entry level microscope is not so useful this time.
<Certainly fungus should be obvious as x40, let alone x100; Protozoans a bit variable in this regard, but at x100 I'd expect to see something moving about or waving their cilia! As you say though, bacteria are elusive at x100.>
I stopped using Multicure (M. blue, M. green & Acriflavine) in the tank as it was not really working and was making it too hard to see what was going on, and continued with the course of triple sulfa. I found on day 3, the
day before the second dose was due, the patches seemed thicker and were spreading. But the morning after the water change and second dose of triple sulfa, it looked like the start of recovery. Some of the Corys looked
completely clear while the other affected ones seemed slightly better.
However by the following day it was obvious that triple sulfa really was not working - maybe it was just the water change that made them look temporarily better.
<Agreed.>
The white patches are spreading again and some patches were visible on fish that were previously completely clear. The sterbai Corys also are starting to have light markings on their faces which look like they could be ulcers.
I completed the course of triple sulfa but I think at best it merely slowed the spread of the disease.
<Triple-Sulfa contains sulfamethazine, sulfacetamide, sulfathiazole, only one of which, sulfacetamide, is an antibiotic; the other two are antimicrobials. Taken together they're a bit hit-and-miss as an aquarium medication, and not really anyone's first choice. While useful enough as preventatives, for example once a fish is injured and you're concerned it might get infected with Finrot, I'd not recommend Triple-Sulfa for dealing with an established infection.>
In any case, behaviourally the fish are still all eating, acting like they are well and so on so I decided to switch to tetracycline as I think they are well enough to handle the side effects for now. I keep finding conflicting information regarding whether tetracycline will treat Columnaris but I think its worth a try since I don't have anything else at hand right now, and I don't know for sure that I'm dealing with Columnaris anyway - if it is, it must be the slow-acting strain. I have ordered some Kanaplex and furan 2 from the internet and if the tetracycline doesn't work I'll switch to whichever one gets here first - although is it true that they have a synergy effect when dosed together? I will wait and see how dire the situation is and if its not so bad maybe I'll wait for both before
treating.
<Using two antibiotics can have mileage. Being very specific, if you choose one for gram-positive and one for gram-negative, they can provide a two-pronged approach without a risk of poisoning your fish.>
I'm also considering the possibility of using the Multicure product as a bath since the Methylene blue and Acriflavine ingredients might still help and that way I'm not mixing my medications "in tank".
<Agreed; I'd tend to back off the organic dyes (Methylene blue, etc.) while using antibiotics. Whereas antibiotics are focused and have low toxicity, the dyes and antimicrobials are much more akin to poisons, intended to kill
'germs' before they kill the fish. So overuse, or combining them, can pose a risk. Do a water change, stop using the dyes, and then begin the antibiotics -- removing carbon from the filter, if used.>
I hope the tetracycline will work but it wouldn't surprise me at all if this bacteria is also resistant to tetracycline as we don't really have access to much else in Australia. So at this point I'm just planning ways to keep the fish alive until the big guns get here. The bath instructions I've read are to use water from the current tank to fill the "bath", then use the medication at double the strength intended for in-tank use. Bathe fish for 30 min.s, watching and removing back to the main tank if signs of distress are noted.
<Viable, if used carefully alongside the antibiotic.>
Multicure has 0.4% malachite green, 4% Methylene blue and 2% Acriflavine which previously the fish have tolerated fine at the recommended half strength for scaleless fish. Do you think Corydoras would handle a double
dose of this medication (which would actually be a regular dose)? How often is it necessary to bathe, once a day? Uh, don't take that last one out of context, haha.
<In other words bathe them at full dose? Personally, I would try this, but carefully watching for signs of distress.>
These little guys have lasted almost 2 weeks since arrival, and despite their external condition they still seem vigorous and I haven't lost hope that I will be able to get them to be well again, that is, as well as possible after nuking them with so much medication. What do you think of my treatment plan?
<Worth a shot!>
Cheers,
Bronwen
<Cheers, Neale.>
Re: New Pandas also Re: Epsom salts, peacock gudgeons and blockages       10/26/17
Hi Crew!
<Hello Bronwen,>
Further update on the Corydoras white blobby patch disease saga. Somehow, despite the disease failing to respond to anything I've thrown at it so far, the only loss I've had has been from someone jumping out of the tank.
I do think despite not being curative, the treatments and baths did stop things from getting worse, temporarily at least. The ulcerations I noticed on the sterbai Corydoras faces actually cleared up during the tetracycline treatment, however nothing has shaken the white blobby patches.
<Oh dear. Presumably indicates not a bacterial infection. Next most common causes are either fungal or protozoan; the former is relatively easy to identify, if not by eye, then with even a low power microscope because of the hyphae. Protozoans difficult to see directly, so mucous and cysts will be what you can see with the naked eye. I'd be choosing medications accordingly, perhaps going with the protozoan option first, as this would
tend to be a bit more blobby than the usually fluffy appearance you get with fungi. That said, if you're dealing with an effectively untreatable bacterial infection, like a Mycobacteriosis, or a viral infection, then nothing much will help. Viral infections (look up Fish Pox and Lymphocystis for examples) do produce blister-looking things, but otherwise don't normally cause actual physical harm, and may clear up in time -- though usually across months if not years in some cases. Viruses in fishes do seem to be stress related as often as not, contact with heavy metals in the water or substrate being one example known in the wild.>
I still have 4 mostly okay panda Corydoras with either just fins or no obvious infection, and 4 severely affected ones. Of the rasboras that were also quarantining in that tank, 8 are fine, one jumped out, and one has a small white patch on his lower lip. One of the sterbai Corydoras has an extremely small white patch at the tip of one fin. I would say the tetracycline was pretty harsh and the fish are not as well or perky in attitude as they were at the start but they are still eating. A quick recap for any crew who haven't seen this case so far: New panda Corydoras started showing white patches on day 2 in quarantine. Treated with Multicure (malachite green, Acriflavine, Methylene blue) in case of fungus or Costia, no effect noted after a few days. Treated with triple sulfa, full course as per label, slight improvement then worsening. Treated with tetracycline for 5 days, once again slight improvement then worsening. Treated with aminacrine (desperate measures while waiting for more medication to arrive) and once again slight improvement followed by worsening symptoms. I have pretty much exhausted every medication available to me over the counter and a trip to the vet for help resulted in an unwilling shrug as he was not willing to prescribe anything due to being unable to diagnose anything. Due to my location that exhausted my local options.
<Understood; see above.>
A couple of weeks ago I ordered both Furan 2 and Kanaplex online (I am in a country where these aren't available) hoping for at least some of the fish to survive long enough to be treated with either of these, and aiming to use both to achieve as broad a coverage as possible and get the reputed synergistic effect of these medications used together. However the Furan 2 arrived first and I am not sure how much longer I can wait before the worst
affected fish start dying. I have enough medication to do 2 full 4-day treatments with Furan 2 and I don't know when the Kanaplex will arrive. It could be another 2 weeks according to the worst case scenario shipping
estimate and I don't think anything will last that long. Even if it comes Monday that might not be soon enough for some of these fish.
<I would medicate with what you have rather than waiting for something else. Synergies between medications do exist, of course, but are vague, at best, in standard issue aquarium fish drugs.>
I am considering doing one four day course of Furan 2 to at least see if it is effective, and if not, save the remainder for when the Kanaplex arrives.
However it occurred to me that perhaps this would merely strengthen the bacteria further if it is not sufficient to kill it off. Do you think this is possible?
<Nope. Not the way antibiotic resistance works.>
I think if I treat with Furan 2 and it does not cure or reduce the symptoms in the 4 worst panda corys, I will have to euthanize them to remove them as a bacteria source in the tank and hopefully ensure the survival of everyone
else. I do have a hope that since this medication is not readily available around here, the bacteria should not be resistant to it but I can't help but think ahead.
<I would only euthanise if the fish are actually distressed -- but isolating them does make sense. As stated above, viral infections for example are environmental issues and as such not usually catchy (some exceptions of course, like Dwarf Gourami Iridovirus) and the dratted Mycobacteria problem is also more environmental than anything else, the bacteria being latent in many aquaria and fish farms, but only a problem when the fish are otherwise weakened.>
Tough times! I was not expecting this to last so long, particularly due to panda Corydoras' reputation for being less hardy. I thought the medication would kill them even if the disease did not and yet they are stubbornly holding on. I am almost certain the medication I have put them through hasn't done them much good in the long term, the tetracycline in particular seemed to shake them up a fair bit.
<Possibly.>
Anyway what are your thoughts regarding starting to treat with Furan 2? I do not plan to start anything until tomorrow at earliest as I would like to do a water change and run carbon in the tank for a bit beforehand to remove any traces of previous medication.
<Makes sense. But do remove after use; before adding new medications.>
Cheers, Bronwen @ South Australia, amateur fish nurse
<Good luck! Neale.>