|
|
FAQs on Phony Freshwater Medications... there are...
several Related Articles:
Choose Your Weapon: Freshwater Fish Disease
Treatment Options by Neale Monks,
FW Disease Troubleshooting,
Freshwater Diseases, Nutritional
Disease,
Ich/White Spot Disease, Methylene
Blue,
Metronidazole/Flagyl,
Formalin/Formaldehyde,
Malachite Green,
Organophosphate Use,
Related FAQs: Freshwater
Medications,
Quarantine/Treatment Tanks, Treatments,
Salt/Use,
FW Antibiotic Use,
Aquarium Maintenance, Ich/White Spot Disease, African
Cichlid Disease 1,
Cichlid Disease,
Should've used a real medicine, gasp!
|
.jpg) |
Miracle Cure or Snake Oil? Mira/Mela-fix... Eye
maladies f' as well, FW 8/13/2009
Good day, I am a 2 month fish owner and I have a specific problem but
also a more general question.
<Fire away.>
I have a 2 inch black moor and 2 inch fantail in a 20 gallon tank, and
the black moor has pop-eye I can't seem to get rid of (good nitrate,
nitrite, ammonia levels, Ph 7.5, 65 degree tank), and a day after adding
a golden apple snail one of its popped eyes got cloudy (not sure if
related to snail intro).
<Unlikely to be related to the snail. Pop-eye is typically associated
with either water quality issues or physical damage, e.g., careless
handling of the fish, or the use of coarse rather than soft netting. Do
see here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWsubwebindex/fwpopeyefaqs.htm
In terms of water quality, if you don't have 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite,
then that's likely the problem right there. Your tank should be big
enough for juvenile Goldfish, but I will make the observation that adult
Goldfish need 30 gallons upwards.>
Being relatively new to this, I consulted several pet stores and online
forums and some recommended salt, and some Mirafix.
<Do you mean Melafix?>
I have tried both, and this has not seemed to do much other than upset
the snail who is now doing poorly, but has not helped the eye on the
moor. I am wondering if the snail is more of an added stress on the tank
than the helper I was led to believe he would be in cleaning the tank.
<Melafix shouldn't harm invertebrates, but then, there's little testing
either way. Apple snails do poorly with Goldfish for a variety of
reasons, and the most common is that the Goldfish peck at them, thinking
their
tentacles are edible. Eventually, the Apple snail is so stressed and
unable to feed normally it dies.>
I am concerned I am not doing the right treatment however, because it
seems that for so many problems the answer I get is to do a salt bath
and or use Mirafix, no matter what the problem is. It is like if I went
to my doctor and he gave me the same pill to treat the 10 different
things I had wrong with me. Are these really good products (especially
for fresh water goldfish), or are these the equivalent of the pet store
placebo that earns them a little money but does no harm (or help).
<We get a lot of messages from people who have used Melafix, but without
any improvements. It is, at best, a mild antiseptic that may well help
prevent secondary infections. But as a cure for established disease,
it's so unreliable as to be worthless compared to the other products on
the market.>
I am also confused, because some prefer sea salt and some prefer Epsom
salt, but can not tell me why or what the difference is, and in any case
it seems like a LOT of salt by dosage for a fresh water fish.
<Now, salt (sodium chloride) and Epsom salt (Magnesium sulphate) are
different things and used for different diseases. Salt is used to combat
certain external parasites, particularly whitespot; at the low doses
recommended for treatment, it is sufficient saline in the aquarium that
the free-living stages of the parasite cannot survive. Salt can also be
used to treat velvet, flukes and lice. Epsom salt is used sometimes as a
laxative, a muscle relaxant, and to reduce swelling. It's usually used
when fish are bloated or have pop-eye. So, you pick one or the other
depending on the situation.>
Also, I see that the Mirafix is listed by the State of CA as a
carcinogen.
Is this just the case if ingested, or if it comes in contact with skin?
I am always bare handing it when it comes to the tank after washing my
hands first, and my young daughter helps, so I don't want to take
chances.
<Do you drive? You're more likely to die in a motor accident than to get
cancer from a bottle of Melafix. It's tea-tree oil, and on the scale of
things, pretty harmless. I mention the driving thing because humans are
just hopeless at measuring risk. People worry about trivial risks while
happily eating meat rather than vegetables, skipping exercise, smoking,
drinking liquor, and any number of things that clearly and obviously
reduce health. We're a funny species.>
In short, are salt and/or Mirafix helpful for cloudy eye,
<Likely not.>
and in general how do you think they are most beneficial (as opposed to
the pet stores who claim the salt will cure my baldness and the Mirafix
will help my liver).
<As ever, for medical advice, consult your doctor. The best I can offer
here is advice about your fish.>
Thank you, Tessy
<Cheers, Neale.>
Re: Miracle Cure or Snake Oil? 8/13/2009
Thank-you, this is helpful. A couple follow-ups if I may, because I feel
like I am trapped in several catch-22s.
<Ok.>
If the popeye is caused by the water quality or stress, I seemed a
little darned if do and darned if I don't in several cases. For example,
you suggest Epsom salt (not the aquarium salt my pet guy recommended!)
could help with pop eye, but the guy also said that the salt in general,
and the Melafix could also kill the good bacteria in my filter (which
will result in poor water).
<The pet shop guy is clearly ignorant. For a start, bacteria are
obviously fine in marine tanks, so salt in itself clearly doesn't kill
them. Yes, it's true you shouldn't make dramatic changes, but adding a
small amount won't harm the bacteria at all. There's no such thing as
"salt in general".
Potassium cyanide is a salt, but clearly deadly poisonous. Sodium
chloride is another salt, but one we can safely eat each day. A salt is
merely a kind of chemical; what matters is which salt, and how much.
Sodium chloride in small amounts is a useful nutrient and enhances the
taste of food; sodium chloride in massive amounts will kill you very
quickly. Again, as I said, you use different chemicals depending on the
situation. There's no reason at all you should be using sodium chloride.
But magnesium sulphate (Epsom salt), at a dose of around 1 teaspoon per
5 to 10 gallons, will relieve swelling and bloating, and this may help,
in conjunction with antibiotics, the Pop-eye you're dealing with.>
How do I use these products without having to recycle the tank?
<See above.>
How much will they increase my nitrates, or do I just do a lot of water
changes at the same time, knowing I am getting rid of product I just
paid to put into the tank?
<Why would magnesium sulphate increase nitrate? There's no nitrate in
the chemical. Just do your usual water changes, adding the right amount
of magnesium sulphate per bucket of water to replace what you've taken
out. If you remove a 3 gallon bucket of old water from the aquarium,
then make sure each 3 gallon bucket of new water you draw from the tap
has about half a teaspoon of Epsom salt in it.>
Another one, the same guy who sold me the big filter said the stress of
the popeye may be caused by the current in the tank being too rapid for
these little guys (2 inchers at most including tail, 20 gallon tank,
mechanical filter is a Stage 3 size Fluval). Even when I have it on the
lowest flow setting, and try to dig out a hollow in the gravel to settle
in, they seem to find a hard time finding a spot to truly rest.
<Use a spray bar to spread out the water current. If necessary, angle
the spray bar at the glass, so water pressure is diffused against the
glass.>
My solution was to turn the filter off at night, to give them a true
rest, but I was told this will kill all the good bacteria in the filter
and send the nitrates through the roof.
<Turning the filter off at night is crazy. Yes, the bacteria will die.
Nitrate would be the least of your problems! Ammonia and nitrite will
rapidly rise because the filter bacteria aren't getting a constant flow
of water to clean.>
Is this true? I think the constant swimming is probably the most likely
cause of stress for the pop eye.
<Unlikely.>
Will putting the filter on the ground and shoot it straight up, as
opposed to on the side and across the tank, be helpful?
<Can help, but a spray bar is better.>
Or can I just turn it off at night like I have been?
<No.>
Based on what you wrote, I think maybe my netting caused one of his pop
eyes to 'pop' or get abraded, making it cloudy (for three weeks now). I
thought I had bough the best net they had at the store, but I could see
how pop eyes are fragile things. Is there a specific super safe most
gentle net you can recommend?
<The safest is a plastic carton, like an old ice cream carton. Use the
net or your hands to drive the fish into the carton, and lift out.
Otherwise, if you want a net, look for the finest ones you can buy,
typically white nylon, rather than the coarser ones, often green nylon.>
One last newbie question, I do seem to have a testing quirk no one can
answer. I sometimes have a situation with 0 ammonia, some nitrites (very
low), but 0 nitrate (I laugh at this, because the strips have color
ranges from say 0 to .125 to .25 to .50, etc., and most readings are
never at exactly the exact color as pictured), but you have mentioned
that ANY nitrite level is bad.
<Correct. My guess would be that the filter "dies back" at night, so you
detect high levels of ammonia and nitrite, and then "recovers" somewhat
during the day, and you detect lower levels of ammonia and nitrite.>
Well, I have never been able to get to total zero nitrite, it is always
above a little light blue, but never gets truly purplish in any way, but
my nitrates do appear to be true zero.
<Test kits can be faulty, and to be honest, I wouldn't worry about
nitrate anyway. Nitrate is more of an issue with marines and certain
freshwater fish like cichlids. Goldfish are largely indifferent to it.
But ammonia and nitrite are issues.>
Some have said what I am saying is impossible, as you get nitrates from
converting all the nitrites, and that they only convert back to nitrites
when the nitrate level gets super high. Even my worst nitrate reading is
still mostly yellow. So long story short, how can you still have any
nitrite in your tank (long term) when you have no nitrates (long term).
<Nitrate can be consumed by things like plants, and anaerobic bacteria
in a deep bed of gravel will also use some of it up. But as I say, I
wouldn't worry too much.>
And if that is possible, but any level of nitrite is bad, how do I get
rid of that nitrite if the normal cycling process does not seem to want
to convert that list little bit?
<If you constantly detect trace levels of nitrite, it either means your
filter is overwhelmed by the amount of fish being kept, or the fish are
being overfed, or the filter hasn't cycled completely. All three could
be issues in your case, so be open-minded. Review filter maintenance. In
short, you don't need carbon in your type of tank, but you do need
biological filtration. Make sure your filter contains lots of biological
media (typically sponges and/or ceramic noodles). Wash the media once
every 4-6 weeks in buckets of aquarium water, never under a hot tap.
Never switch the filter off. Don't replace more than 50% of the
biological media at any one time.>
Oh, and if the cloudy eye can not be helped by salt or Mirafix, what is
the next attempt? Patience?
<No, use something like (in the US) Maracyn or (in the UK) eSHa 2000.
Some medication designed for Finrot and bacterial infections. Don't
expect a rapid recovery.>
Is cloudy eye painful, or does it really blind them?
<Painful? Difficult to say. Does it blind them? Yes, eventually. But the
problem is that Pop-eye isn't a disease of the eye, but a sign fluid has
built up behind the eyeball. This means there's a systemic bacterial
infection. It's a step away from septicaemia, and yes, that kills pretty
quickly.>
Or is it more a cosmetic thing that bothers us?
<No.>
Thanks again
<Cheers, Neale.>
Re: Miracle Cure or Snake Oil?–
08/14/09
Wow, amazingly helpful. The only comment for what it is worth is that
the pet store guy said the salt would kill the fresh water "good"
bacteria, and replace them with salt water "good" bacteria,
<This in only true if you raise the salinity above a certain point.
Freshwater contains 0 grammes/litre marine salt mix, whereas seawater
contains 35 g/l marine salt mix. Freshwater bacteria are fine up to
about 9 g/l. Since I'm suggesting you add much lower doses than that
when treating whitespot (typically less than 3 g/l) and for
Dropsy/Pop-eye you aren't using marine salt mix but Epsom salt, none of
this matters.>
which helped tropical fish but not fresh water fish as much,
particularly when Melafix is getting used at the same time as the salt.
<Melafix may work, but it just isn't reliable. If you have some, and the
disease isn't life-threatening, then feel free to use it. But if you're
shopping for a medication now, or your fish is clearly in distress (as
is the case with Pop-eye) then you want to be using something much more
reliable.>
At this point however I am more likely to trust your judgment on all
this, this seems to be very good advice from your site overall, very
helpful.
Not having to be anal about monitoring nitrate with goldfish saves me a
lot of money alone!
<Indeed.>
Changing only one of the sponges in the filter at one time is also
brilliant.
<Likely mentioned this in the instruction booklet that came with the
filter, so can't really claim brilliance on this ones!>
Thanks again.
<Happy to help. Cheers, Neale.>
List of Shame:
"Fixes" that aren't: Melafix, Pimafix... leaf extracts... that if
anything have minimal antimicrobial activity (so does bleach,
vinegar, water...)... and worse, work to kill off your bio-filter,
and worst, give people some sense of false hope that they're doing
something worthwhile instead of actually doing something worthwhile.
|
GF Qs 08/02/09
> Bob, Neale- As I'm going through the GF disease FAQs ("summarizing"
and sorting), I have few questions... 1) a lot of the early crew members
frequently recommend Melafix. Does this work for goldfish?
<Marginally in some types of circumstances (my best attempt at a fair
assessment)... Really, more a hindrance, obstacle to folks further
investigating, seeking real cures in many more percentage cases>
> 2) There seems to be some disagreement over the use of "freshwater"
salt to ease water quality issues and stress on the fish. What is the >
logic behind the use of this salt? ...and do you two recommend it?
<The change in osmotic pressure is more easily tolerated than some ext.
complaints... and the placebo effect, granted... getting folks to not do
more harm>
3) Is it not a "myth" that goldfish will only grow as large as their
home will provide?
<Sigh... absolutely>
...do they just grow very slowly in small containers?
<They stunt, suffer and die prematurely... Thank you for asking. BobF,
who would include this corr... so he's going to.>
> Thanks,
> Sara M.
Re: GF Qs
08/02/09
> Hi Sara,
> I tend to agree with Bob the Melafix is of little to no value. It's an
antiseptic at best, and consequently best considered a preventative, to
keep minor wounds from becoming infected. I'd never recommend it as
something to use once fish have obvious signs of Finrot or fungus.
> Sodium chloride is known to reduce the toxicity of nitrite and
nitrate. As such, it can be used at low doses (1-3 grammes/litre) to
help fish tolerate periods of poor water quality. Sodium chloride can
also be used to treat a variety of external parasites including
whitespot (ick) and leeches. On the other hand, what sodium chloride
won't do is raise pH or increase hardness. It's therefore of no value in
aquaria where the main problems are to do with water chemistry.
> Goldfish have a very high tolerance for brackish water, so the use of
salt at low doses on a continual basis won't do any harm, but on the
flip side, it won't do any good either, if other issues, particularly
water chemistry, aren't fixed first.
> Carp, including goldfish, are known to stunt in the wild as well as in
captivity. I disagree with Bob with regard to the potential for harm;
there's no clear evidence that stunting causes any problems at all.
> However, having said that, keeping fish in tanks that are too small
for them -- and thereby causing stunting -- also tends to imply the fish
is being exposed to poor water quality, unstable water chemistry, and
low levels of dissolved oxygen. All of these things are liable to reduce
overall health and disease resistance. So while stunting _per se_
probably doesn't cause problems, the conditions that promote stunting
almost certainly do.
> It's worth mentioning fish grow their entire lives, as you probably
know, and once a stunted fish is removed to bigger quarters, it will
begin growing again. Of course, the rate of growth decreases with age,
so a fish that was stunted when young will not get dramatically larger
if moved into a big tank as an adult.
> Cheers, Neale
|
Sick Oscar (Astronotus; another sick fish "treated" with Melafix)
2/15/09
Hello~
Your website is very informative and great except
I cannot find any emails that match all my Oscars symptoms. Hopefully you can
help me. I have called a couple of local fish stores and even went to a Oscar
website in which I was criticized for letting my Oscar get this way. My Oscar's
name is Dorothy (not really sure of the sex but that is what my boys named her.)
I have owned Dorothy for 5 years she is 10 inches. I had her and a Sunfish,
(that I saved from the frying pan)who was about half the size of Dorothy, in a
55 gallon aquarium. No decorations other than some large rocks. No
gravel or
sand. Made it easier to clean. Last year we had to move into my parents house
because we bought a farmhouse that needed to be remodeled from top to bottom. I
had to move Dorothy and the Sunfish into a 30 gallon
aquarium. I have a 55
plus gallon Whisper pump hooked up and a suction cup bubble wand to help the air
flow. I rinse the filters every week and after 2 weeks I change them completely.
I keep the temperature of the tank at about 80 degrees. About 2 months ago, the
Sunfish died suddenly. The night before he was eating and the next morning I
found him dead. Instantly I was concerned as to what happened. I pulled the pump
out cleaned it from top to
bottom. Changed about 25% of the water. I did not
want to do more because Dorothy became melancholy/depressed. She stayed in the
corner and would not eat or swim around. For a couple of days I thought that she
was being moody because she no longer had a tank mate. After about the third day
of not eating I really examined her. I noticed that she had what looked like
fungus. I treated her with fungus medication followed the instructions with
that. She bounced back for about a week. Then she started hanging in the corner
again. This time she had her nose pointed down and her tail pointed to that top
of the tank. I tried to get her to swim around by seeing if she would follow my
finger along the front of the glass, a game we played when she was a baby, but
she would not move. I also noted that her stomach looked bloated. This is when I
emailed into a Oscar website after trying to
find some reason why this
happened and how I should treat it. After feeling like a very bad parent I was
told that she had a Urinary Tract infection?
and was told that there is no
real cure for this try some aquarium salt. I bought the aquarium salt gave the
correct dosage and hoped for some type of reaction from Dorothy. Nothing. Next I
called a local Aquarium shop and
talked to the owner who told me that it
sounded like she may have Dropsy. I have never heard of this before and he told
me to treat her with Melafix for 7 days then do a 25 % water change. I started
treating her and by the end of the week she was now laying on the bottom of the
tank and her stomach looked less swollen. I did the 25% water changed and
started week 2. Now when I go in to sit by her tank she comes over to the front
of the tank close to me. I noticed that she has a mark on the bottom of her
chin/jaw. What is this called? Someone mentioned it in a prior email on your
website and said it was chin sink? I couldn't find any more information on this
and how to treat this? I have sent a picture. She did not have this during the
prior treatment. I have now treated her for 2 1/2 weeks with the
Melafix and
the aquarium salt. The water has turned really cloudy, the medicine bottle said
that was normal. I tried to entice her with worm pieces and she tried to eat but
it looked like she was having a hard time swimming normally, it is almost like
she is having spasms when she swims, and then when she did get positioned in
front of the worm she couldn't scoop it up in her mouth. After a few attempts
she went back to the corner of her tank. I took a spoon and pushed it towards
her and she kind of sucked it in. It was a short lived victory for me because
that was the first thing
she has eaten in a month. It has been 4 days since
then and things have not changed. I don't know what else to do. If you can help
me out by maybe coming up with whatever is actually wrong with her or maybe a
different
treatment? Thank you for your time. ~Shannon
<Shannon I can't
tell from the image anything useful, it's just too blurry!
But please, let
me say this: both salt and Melafix are useless. Assuming that this a bacterial
infection, use an antibiotic such as Maracyn (or, if that doesn't work, Maracyn
2). Make sure to run the full dose, for all the require days, removing carbon
from the filter during the process. Bacterial infections typically look like
sores, ulcers and so on, while Fungal infections are very obviously bundles of
fluffy white threads. They often occur together, and mostly in tanks with poor
water quality. So review conditions in the tank. Cichlids are sensitive to
ammonia and nitrite, but
also nitrate causes problems about 20 mg/l.
Alternatively, external bacterial infections can be caused by violent tankmates
or rough handling on the part of the keeper. Cichlids typically fight by
wrestling "mouth to mouth" and in the process can damage themselves. Oscars are
actually peaceful fish, and shouldn't be combined with species notably more
aggressive. Since this fish is an Oscar, I'll also mention the use of feeder
fish as one of the best ways to make a healthy fish sick. You should never, ever
feed an Oscar feeder fish. They need a varied diet based on good quality cichlid
pellets such as Hikari brand pellets, augmented with various invertebrates (they
love earthworms!) and green foods such as tinned peas. Cheers, Neale.>
|
 |
I think we need a crusade against Melafix. It seems
that every sick fish we get photos of has already been treated with
stuff, and remained sick. How did it ever get onto the market? Who
endorsed it?
Neale
<... and I've just seen in a Brit mar. mag....
there's now a saltwater version! Gahhhh! BobF
I think we need a
big banner or something on the "Before You Write" page that says:
"If you've treated your fish with Melafix, Bettafix or Pimafix, and
it's still sick, then try using a PROPER antibiotic, antibacterial or
anti-fungal."
<I agree... and have tried to intimate this...>
Or
words to that effect, anyway!
Did you hear that Australian fish
magazine Sara and I had written for appears to be closing down? Shame.
<Had heard>
Cheers, Neale
<Sign of the times... BobF> |
HELP! beloved fish sick!! 7/24/08
Neale,
<Cassie,>
I have a huge, beautiful, white female pond fish (not koi) that belonged
to my husband’s great-grandfather (he bred them). He was VERY fond of
her and talked about how she was his favorite. He loved her
silvery-white coloring and her blue eyes. When he had to go away to a
retirement home 4-5 years ago, he asked me to take care of his fish. I
took most of the pond fish he had, found other homes for most of them (I
know a couple of wonderful pond-keepers), and I kept my favorites. He
passed away last fall, so (I know it seems silly) this fish is extremely
special to my husband and me… She reminds us of him.
<I can see that this fish would be of great worth to you. I am curious
as to what he might be though; most of the white pond fish I've seen are
Koi, though very pale, practically albino Goldfish do exist. Given the
age of this fish, and the fact it's been bred in captivity, I'm pretty
sure it's one or other of these species. It's quite easy to tell Koi and
Goldfish apart: Koi have short whiskers around the mouth, but Goldfish
do not.>
My husband’s great-grandfather gave this big female fish to me at least
4 or 5 years ago. There’s no telling how old she is, though. She was
already about 10 inches long back then, and she doesn’t seem to have
grown much. She and my other pond fish were kept in a small 75 gallon
pond until last summer. I was pregnant with my daughter at the time, and
in June 2007 we moved them to a large aquarium in our living room
because we didn’t think an open body of water was a good thing to have
around with our baby… I should add that the tank is a 90 gal. Eclipse
(though they don't call it eclipse anymore... it's Marineland, I
suppose). GREAT tank... moves 600-gallons-per-hour. We LOVE it. They
also have a 14 inch long air-stone run by a 100-gal air pump.
<Sounds nice. But I will make the point that Koi simply never do that
well indoors, in my opinion (of course lots of people will now write in
and say their Koi are perfectly happy indoors!).>
The June 2007 move went fine, and all the fish survived. They have all
been doing WONDERFULLY for the past year. …all swimming happily, eating
well, dorsal fins up and perky… All was well. The tank has been up and
running for over a year now, though I've had the pond fish for many,
many years before that. I got my first small batch of them around 10-12
years ago, and 3 of those are still going strong, so I guess I must be
doing SOMETHING right. All of my pond fish are AT LEAST 5 years old and
I have had them their whole lives… There is a 5-yr-old Pleco, too, who
gets along great with the pond fish. They have all been very happy and
very healthy their whole lives… until very recently.
<OK...?>
June 13th (last month), she developed a bad case of pop-eye in her right
eye. It was very grotesque-looking, but it didn’t seem to bother her
much. I immediately did a partial water change and treated with Melafix.
The swelling in her eye went down immediately, and her eye was
completely normal just a couple of days later. She seemed completely
normal for the past month.
<Pop-eye is almost always caused either by water quality problems or
physical damage; if just one eye becomes inflamed, then chances are it
was physical damage. I'd check the tank for any rough ornaments, as well
as review things like netting procedures or even whether one or other
fish might be aggressive. Plecs for example have been known to suck onto
big fish, seemingly to feed on mucous. It's rare, but it does happen. In
any event, as you've seen Pop-eye will get better by itself under good
conditions, and is rarely life-threatening in itself.>
This morning, when I woke up and checked on the fish as normal, I
noticed her sitting on the bottom of the tank. This is very unusual for
her. However, as soon as she saw me, she quickly began swimming and
looking for food as normal. I didn’t think much of it. As the day
progressed, she spent less and less time swimming, and more and more
time “resting” on the bottom. Her breathing became very labored.
<This is quite alarming with most fish. My instinct when I see this is
two-fold: do water tests, and then do a 50% (or bigger) water change. If
the fish immediately peps up after a big water change, I can narrow down
the range of problems to environmental issues. Sometimes even things
like water temperature can stress coldwater fish sufficiently that they
behave erratically.>
I tested the water. I have a color-coded test kit which tests nitrate,
nitrite, hardness, alkalinity, and pH. All levels tested “acceptable” or
“ideal” except for the nitrite level. The color turned up very strange
-- a color that is not on the chart. I took this as a bad sign, so I did
about a 30%-40% water change at around lunchtime. I treated the water
with Melafix. She perked up a bit.
<The perkiness is almost certainly the water change, not the Melafix
(which I'm not a big fan of). In any case, if you have nitrite, then
either your tank is overstocked or you're under-filtered or you're
overfeeding. If you haven't added any fish, and they haven't grown much,
and you aren't adding much different food, then concentrate on
filtration. Biological filters need cleaning, but not too much cleaning.
Check the filter is working properly. They don't last forever. Even at a
simple level, things like the impeller (to spinning thing) can get
clogged. So dismantle the filter, give all the hardware a good clean
(including the hoses!) and rinse the biological media in a bucket of
aquarium water, squeezing the sponges or sluicing the ceramic noodles.
Clean or replace mechanical media. I'm not a fan of chemical media in
standard freshwater tanks, and I'd heartily recommend replacing carbon
and/or Zeolite with more good quality biological media.>
However, she took a turn for the worst last night. HELP!! She is sitting
on the bottom full-time now. Her mouth is running a mile-a-minute… she’s
GASPING! The other fish are totally fine. They seem to be happy and
perky in their cleaner, fresher, newly treated water. I am very upset
and concerned for my poor white fish!
<She may be more sensitive because of her age or species. If the other
fish are Goldfish, but she's a Koi (as I suspect) she will be MUCH more
sensitive to nitrite than the other fish. Short term, stop feeding the
fish altogether, and do 50% water changes daily. Keep using the nitrite
test kit every day or two to see that the nitrite level is going
downwards.>
I don’t want to lose her! …does ANYONE know of anything else I can do
for her as an emergency rescue? …anything I can do now, at home? I have
read about feeding them peas to help their swim-bladder to get them up
off the bottom… does anyone know anything about this? I am afraid she
may not make it through the night. I am so worried!
I know this seems silly… I know it’s “just a fish,” but like I said, she
is very special to my family and me…
<I honestly don't think she's ill; I think these symptoms are
environmental. Both Koi and Goldfish can live a long time. Goldfish
easily last 20 years if cared for properly, and the record is over 30
years. Koi should easily live many decades, with at least one Koi,
Hanako, known to have lived for 215 years! In other words, I'd not to be
too worried she's on her way out just yet.>
Thank you for your time...
<Hope this helps, Neale.>
HELP! beloved fish sick!! Large comets
in too small, damaged a world... "Fix" again RMF 7/24/08
I need your help!!!
I just posted this on Yahoo Answers, but I don't always trust that. We'll
see how that goes.
MUCH-loved POND FISH appears to be dying… HELP!!?
I have a huge, beautiful, white female pond fish (not koi)
<Likely a large comet goldfish...>
in a large 90 gallon aquarium with a fantastic top-of-tank 600-gal.-per-hour
filtering system with a few other pond fish. The rest are all AT LEAST 5
years old (some pushing 10). I’ve had them their whole lives …all very
healthy until recently.
<Mmm, water quality tests? Very common to have cycling, waste accumulation
issues with such fishes in small volumes... 90 gallons is small>
June 13th (last month), she developed a case of pop-eye in her right eye. I
immediately did a partial water change and treated with Melafix.
<Worthless... worse than... likely killed your bio-filter...>
The swelling in her eye went right down - she seemed normal for past month.
This morning, she was sitting on the bottom (unusual), but as soon as she
saw me, she began swimming around as normal. Later, she spent less time
swimming, and more time “resting” on the bottom.
I tested water with a color-coded test kit (nitrate, nitrite, hardness,
alkalinity, pH). All came up “acceptable” except for the nitrite level. That
turned up an odd color, so I did about a 30%-40% water change at around
noon. I treated with Melafix. She perked up, but...
<Uhh... diluting the nitrite won't work... the "Fix" will kill the
beneficial microbes...>
15 minutes ago
- 3 days left to answer.
Additional Details
14 minutes ago
<?>
after the water change and the Melafix treatment, she perked up a bit, but
she taken a turn for the worst in the last couple of hours. HELP!! She is
sitting on the bottom GASPING now! Other fish are totally fine… seem to be
happy in their clean water.
I am very worried for my poor white fish! I don’t want to lose her! Does
ANYONE know of anything else I can do now at home for her as an emergency
rescue?
<Do you have a system that is cycled you can move all to?>
I have read about feeding them peas to help their swim-bladder to get them
up off the bottom…
<Not a/the cause... which you need to treat... Which is the environment...
now poisoned with the API product... Need to get these fish into a cycled
system of size>
does anyone know anything about this? I am afraid she may not make it
through the night. I am so worried!
…please, serious responses only… I know it’s “just a fish,” but like I said,
she is very special to my family and me…
I should add that the tank is 90 gal. eclipse (though they don't call it
eclipse anymore... it's Marineland, I suppose). GREAT tank...
600-gallons-per-hour. LOVE it. It's been up and running for over a year now,
though I've had the pond fish for many, many years before that. I got my
first small batch of them around 10-12 years ago, and 3 of those are still
going strong, so I guess I must be doing SOMETHING right. There is a
5-yr-old Pleco, too, who gets along great with the pond fish.
Please help! I don't want to lose her!
-Cassie-
<Please use the search tool and/or indices on WWM re Melafix... Goldfish
systems... Read, and soon, starting here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/gldfshsystems.htm
and the linked files above. Move these fish, don't feed anything if there is
any detectable ammonia or nitrite... Bob Fenner>
|
Goldfish-Resistant Fin Rot?
Mela-not-fix... getting to... identifying an treating root cause/s,
not symptoms 7/13/08
Hi Crew,
<Jennifer>
Thank you in advance for your help! I have a beautiful 4-inch (body
+ tail) Shubunkin goldfish living in a 27-gal tank with a 40-gal
Power filter and a large air stone. He is the only fish in the tank
and it has been established for over 6 months. About 6 weeks ago, I
noticed the beginning stages of what I think is fin rot on both
caudal tail tips. I hate to admit it, but I'm afraid we neglected
his tank cleaning a bit and I suspect the slight ammonia increase
(0.25ppm when I first tested it after noticing the frayed fins) made
his susceptible to infection.
<Mmm, maybe... there should not be any ammonia present. Perhaps some
other/redundant biological filtration>
First, I tried vacuuming gravel along with 50% water change and
adding Amquel+ in the recommended dose to detoxify any remaining
ammonia. After about a week, the rot continued to get worse, so I
tried what I thought would be a "gentle" approach and added Melafix
<...>
for the recommended 7-day treatment. This did absolutely nothing
<What it does>
and the rot only got worse because it became red along the frayed
edges. I performed a 25% water change and replaced the activated
carbon to get rid of the medication.
<Not really a medication>
I did nothing except monitor water quality for a few days.
Ammonia fluctuated between 0 and 0.25ppm, Nitrite was always 0, and
Nitrates stayed around 10-15ppm. As I said, this was a
well-established tank, but the fact that I could not get the ammonia
to stabilize at 0 made me think the Melafix destroyed by biological
filtration.
<Does this as well>
It is important to mention that I was having to add a standard dose
of Amquel+ every evening to keep the water quality at the levels I
just mentioned. At this point, a fish-hobbyist friend told me to try
Maracyn since the redness had not gone away and the rot was
progressing. I followed the 5-day treatment and the redness was
reduced, but not eliminated and the fins did not start growing back.
<The environment...>
Again, I did a 25% water change, replaced the carbon for a day, then
started a treatment of Maracyn-Two. I thought maybe the bacterial
infection was gram- rather than gram+.
<Rather rare actually>
After this 5-day treatment, there was no improvement at all, and all
the while I'm having to still add Amquel+ every other day to keep
the aforementioned levels. (I added a dose of Cycle
<This Hagen product rarely works...>
at the start of the Maracyn-Two treatment, which is I think why I
was able to get away with less frequent doses of Amquel+.) At this
point, I was really alarmed at the fin rot progression and
resistance, so I went back to the only treatment that showed any
signs of improvement, which was the Maracyn. On the advice of my
friend, I treated with Maracyn concurrently with Maroxy, as he
started to wonder if this was a fungal fin rot.
<Not per accidens... not the immediate cause... the environment>
I am currently on my third day of treatment with these medications,
but I haven't seen much, if any, improvement. I will say it doesn't
seem to be getting any worse at the moment. Today was the first day
that the Nitrite level went above 0 to 0.25ppm, and the ammonia was
zero. Perhaps this is my tank starting to re-cycle?
<Seems so>
I am just so upset that I've tried everything I can think of to help
my fish, but nothing is really working. The only comfort I have is
that he is behaving 100% normally and eating with a very healthy
appetite. I am also purposely trying to feed less and vacuum his
tank every other day. I test water quality 2 times per day.
Whew! That was an earful, I know, but I wanted to make sure you had
all the info. Do you think there is anything else going on with my
poor fish instead of/in addition to the bacterial fin rot?
<I don't think this is the actual problem here... "It" is the env.>
The frays are now about 1/2 an inch long on his tail. What should I
do once the Maracyn/Maroxy combo treatment is over in two more days?
I have a bad feeling the infection will still be active. Is this at
all normal? I'm desperate to stop the rot from reaching his body,
because I've read that will at the very least mean his fin won't
grow back and at the worst will kill him!
Thank you, again, for you patience with a worried Mom.
Sincerely,
Jennifer
<Again; some simple additional filtration that incorporates a
mechanical media... that will act along with the hang on power
filter... Perhaps a sponge filter, an inside power filter, some live
plant material... even a simple small undergravel filter plate...
The nitrogenous trouble was the real root cause here... All the
treatments were attempts at treating symptoms, not the cause. Fix
the environment, fix this fish. Bob Fenner>
Re: Goldfish-Resistant Fin Rot?
- 07/13/08
Thank you for your advice, Bob. Honestly, I searched your site
for many hours looking for specific info on resistant fin rot,
<Mmm, likely because... there really isn't such a thing... Really>
and although I didn't find much (perhaps I wasn't looking in the
right spots), I did read a lot of info on goldfish systems and
environment, which was very helpful. Tonight is the last dose of the
Maracyn/Maroxy combo. I was thinking of vacuuming gravel and doing a
50% water change while replacing the carbon filter to clean the
water.
<Don't vacuum the bottom... too likely to impair the biological
filter>
Also, I have a spare hang-on filter I could add to the tank, as
well.
<Ah, great!>
I was wondering what you thought about continuing with another round
of Maracyn/Maroxy (the box says a second round of treatment is okay
to use).
<Not worthwhile. Good products, but don't address the real issue
here>
I understand completely that fixing the environment is a must, but
until the tank is finished re-cycling, all I know to do is control
the water chemistry with water changes, vacuuming and Amquel+.
<I would stop using the Amquel as well... this fine Novalek product
contains other chemicals you'd do best avoiding...>
In the meantime,
should I continue to treat my fish's symptoms with medication?
<No>
I'm afraid if I stop medication and the infection is still present
with redness and everything, that the bacteria will become resistant
and render further medication useless. My friend suggested, as a
last resort, to dab some iodine solution directly on the fin damage
without letting it get in the water or the fish's eyes.
<Not worthwhile either>
Have you heard of this being successful, or is it more of a gamble?
My gut tells me just to keep doing water changes until the tank
stabilizes, but I'm by no means any kind of expert and I would hate
to think that my inaction will make my fish worse.
I know you are very busy, and I really do appreciate your help. And
I know my poor fish does, too!
Sincerely,
Jennifer
<Best to just monitor ammonia, nitrite, not feed period if these are
detectable... RMF>
Re: Goldfish-Resistant Fin Rot?
- 07/14/08
Once, again, thank you for your help. I actually just have one last
question, not specifically related to the fin rot issue, but
important
none-the-less. Maybe other relatively new fish hobbyists like myself
will also find it helpful. In all my fish tanks, I have always used
a specific
brand of natural spring water that I've found through chemical
testing to have ideal water chemistry for my goldfish.
<Interesting... most tap waters are fine for goldfish... provided
they don't have too much sanitizer. I simply vac, drain about a
quarter of my goldfish systems every week and replace with straight
outdoor hose tap (nothing else)... perhaps with a pickle bucket
(four or so gallons) of heated indoor water about the same time
every week>
It is also very convenient not to have to pre-treat the water other
than letting the temperature equalize with that of the tank water.
However, after this round of trouble with my Shubunkin, this method
is becoming very expensive to keep up water changes!
<Is there some aspect of your source/house water that you
think/consider problematical?>
I tested my tap water, and all water chemistry is very similar to
the spring water (pH especially), but it contains 1.0 ppm of ammonia
<!? Surprising>
(and chlorine which I would obviously let evaporate).
<This last "takes" about a week nowadays... chloramine, not
chlorine>
Is the only way to "condition" the water for use in my tank a
product like Amquel+?
<Mmm, no... the simplest is to let the water set for the duration
interval twixt change-outs... or "take a/the risk" as I do, and only
change part...>
In the previous email, you mentioned I should discontinue use of
this product,
<Correct. I would NOT use daily... for the purpose of arresting
ammonia presence... see WWM, elsewhere re... will forestall the
establishment of nitrification (does this make sense?) among other
things it is best to avoid while the fish is weakened>
so I'm worried I shouldn't use it to condition the tap water. I
should mention I also have API's Stress Coat on hand.
<A very similar product. I also would not use daily>
Would this be a better alternative, or would I encounter the same
problem of extra unwanted chemicals?
<Yes...>
Hopefully this will be the last time I have to bug you so you can do
your wonderful work with others in need. Thank you!
Sincerely,
Jennifer
<I do hope I am being clear, complete-enough here Jennifer. You are
an exemplary aquarist... conscientious beyond fault. I realize there
is much conflicting information to be had via the Net, stores, even
in-print books... Best to read good sources, like Goldfish
Connection, WWM, and determine what is factual, useful for your
situation yourself. Bob Fenner> |
Re: swim bladder disease...
Melafix 4/16/08
I am shocked by this response. I asked for a recommendation of a general
antibiotic. Was not giving one. Chose one on my own. It appeared to work quite
well, the fish is cured. And then I am told that I made a bad choice.
Confused.
<Hello Richard. The problem with Melafix is that it *isn't* an antibiotic and it
certainly won't cure internal problems such as any of the various things called
"Swim Bladder Disorder". While some people have found Melafix useful, many of us
here at WWM consider it to be at best unreliable, and at worst useless. What
Melafix can (perhaps) do is help prevent, and possibly cure, certain external
infections. But not all of them, and certainly not consistently enough to be the
"drug of choice". In any event, there are inexpensive, safe, much more
consistently useful antibacterial and antibiotic drugs out there, so the
advantages of Melafix are difficult for some of us to fathom. Anyway, that your
fish got better likely has little or nothing to do with the Melafix. Most swim
bladder problems come down to either dietary issues such as constipation or
simply opportunistic bacterial infections. Improving diet and water conditions
can help the fish recover under its own steam. Likely your fish is healthy once
more because of your fishkeeping skills rather than the Melafix. Cheers, Neale.>
<<Thank you Neale... my "principal gripe" with such so-called remedies is that
they are totally untested... and for the most part, at best, worthless
placebos... at worse, as the case here, detrimental often in mal-influencing
water quality, damaging nitrification... and what passes for "non-critical
thinking" results in folks believing they're doing some good... Instead of more
thoroughly investigating... discerning that what passes for "advice" often at
stores, the Net is homespun nonsense. BobF>>
|
High Nitrates after use of
Melafix – 03/20/08
Hello,
<Hi there>
First, let me say thank you for your wonderful site, which I return to every
chance I get. You have been kind enough in the past to help me; and I am hoping
for your assistance again.
<Will try...>
I have a 36 gallon freshwater tank, lightly stocked with 10 fish. When my tank
was new (15 months ago) it always had an alkaline PH of about 7.2.
<... Mmm, not "that" alkaline... In fact, some good reasons to have a slightly
elevated pH... NealeM has a nice article re:
http://wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwhardness.htm
and the linked files above>
As my tank matured, I was told that it would probably become more acidic, which
it did. It has been around 6.6 for the past few months now. However, 2 weeks
ago, my Boesemani rainbowfish got injured in a castle ornament (which I have
since removed) incurring significant scale damage. I added Melafix
<...>
to the tank because I had heard great things about it speeding up healing. Well,
it worked. He was completely healed within a week.
<Might've taken seven days (or less) w/o...>
I was performing modest 10% water changes every other day for the length of the
7-day treatment in an attempt to keep the water pristine. During the course of
the treatment I only tested for ammonia and nitrite to ensure that my bio filter
was not being affected. Ammonia and Nitrite always tested at zero and continue
to do so to date.
After treatment ended, I put carbon in the filter (Eheim canister) and performed
a 25% water change. I tested my water parameters a few hours later and was very
surprised to find high nitrate levels of at least 40ppm, but could possibly have
been higher. It is very hard to differentiate on my test kit at any level higher
than 20ppm since the shades of red are almost identical.
<Mmm, often diluting samples by half (by adding "clean" water of the same
approximate volume...) can/will bring readings back "on scale">
My nitrates never exceeded 20ppm before this, as I religiously perform 25% water
changes every two weeks with a complete gravel vacuuming.
I theorized that the Melafix must have been responsible since it is a plant
derivative and probably contributed to the dissolved organics in the water.
Could this be the reason? Also, as I feared, my PH level has dropped to the
lowest range on my test kit (6.0-6.3).
<All are possible interactions, yes>
I have been doing daily 15% water changes since this occurred and the nitrates
seem to be dropping (hard to tell once in the "red" range on the test kit) and
my PH did go up temporarily last evening to 6.4, but had dropped again by this
morning. I don't wish to stress my fish, who all appear fine at the moment, so I
hesitate to do large water changes for fear of the PH rising too quickly.
<You are wise here>
Should I proceed with the daily 15% water changes, or do you feel that this is
insufficient to correct this issue in a more timely manner.
<I would continue as you are>
Is there anything I could have missed (besides the obvious of not using Melafix
in my display tank anymore). I thank you in advance for your assistance.
Michele
<Mmm, I think you're doing fine. I am NOT a fan of the "fix" products by API,
but there are folks here (WWM) who are a bit more charitable. Am a bigger
promoter of the use of real medicines. Bob Fenner>
Follow-up on High
Nitrates/low PH after Melafix use
Hello again,
<Michele>
I wrote to WWM earlier in the week regarding experiencing high nitrates
and subsequent low PH in my tank after using Melafix to treat a injured
fish.
<I recall>
For your reference, I have included my original correspondence which Bob
Fenner answered and was kind enough to assist me with. I have been doing
daily modest water changes to bring down the nitrate levels, which has
vastly improved (currently reading in the 20ppm range) but of course I'm
still working on getting it even lower. However, in tandem with the high
nitrates, my PH level dropped from 6.6 to the lowest range on my test
kit (6.0-6.3). Water changes have resulted in the PH rising to 6.4, but
this effect has been temporary, usually dropping back down within 24
hours.
<I would bolster the alkalinity here with at least a few teaspoons of
baking soda... or a commercial prep.... Covered on WWM>
I realize that larger water changes would yield quicker nitrate
reduction, but I don't want to stress the fish in case the PH does
increase too rapidly so I'm proceeding cautiously.
<You are wise here>
But despite the nitrates being reduced, the PH is not climbing back up
as of yet and stabilizing as I had hoped. I was somewhat puzzled about
this, so I went to your site and researched some possibilities as to
why. In doing so, I realized that I did not know what the KH or GH of my
source water was, so I purchased a KH/GH test kit to find out.
<Ahh!>
I live in New York, and we have very soft water, which has almost no
KH/GH, which I confirmed with the test (only 1 drop yielded a slight
tinge of color). I know now that this is not ideal, and that PH drops
can occur without enough buffering;
<Yes>
however I am very leery of adding any chemicals to the tank for fear of
rapid and/or wide PH fluctuations which can be much worse than a stable
but low PH.
<Best to make all such changes gradually, through/by way of the change
out water... modify it and add it to the system>
My father has been using the same source water for 30 years, and has
successfully kept tropical fish without the use of any chemicals to
alter PH or hardness. His philosophy is to keep fish that will adapt to
your conditions and thinks I am overly concerned about this.
<A valid concern; particularly if only keeping livestock that "enjoys"
softer/acidic water...>
I tend to agree with his philosophy but my real concern is the low PH
hindering the nitrifying bacteria.
<Also a valid concern>
I have read that at lower PH levels, the bio filter does not work as
efficiently.
<This is so>
Is this true, or does PH have to much more acidic for this to occur?
<Slightly alkaline is better... the forward reactions/nitrification are
reductive in nature... drive pH down... so having some biomineral in
place...>
If I continue with the daily water changes and get the nitrates down to
about 5-10ppm and keep them there with a more frequent maintenance
regimen (perhaps a weekly water change instead of bi-weekly), will the
PH increase to where it was a few weeks ago, or without sufficient KH
will it remain low no matter how many water changes I do?
<If there is no addition of alkaline material (esp. carbonate,
bicarbonate) from somewhere, the GH, KH will not change... If reductive
processes continue, the pH will drop...>
Forgive me if this has been explained somewhere on your site.
<An, no worries>
Be assured that I have been reading, but I find this issue of hardness
somewhat confusing and wanted to check with someone from the crew before
deciding on a course of action. Also, please note that prior to adding
the Melafix a few weeks ago, I did not have excess nitrates nor any
problems with a sudden PH drop so I am hoping that just keeping the
nitrate level extremely low will get my tank back to where it was a few
weeks ago. I had also read Neale's suggestions to some people about
using crushed coral in the filter to raise KH, but I don't want my PH to
rise by very much.
<Depending on how much, how soluble, this addition is very safe... will
not raise pH much, very quickly at all>
Since my source water is on the acidic side (6.6-6.8), my goal is to get
the tank PH as close as possible to my source water. Is it possible to
use the coral and only increase the KH and PH slightly rather than to
the basic side of the PH scale?
<Yes... could be placed in a filter, bag... in a container with your
make-up water... allowed to "soak" for a few days...>
I'm somewhat confused because I have been hearing/reading conflicting
information about their use. How do you suggest I achieve my goal of
increasing my PH to about 6.6 - 6.8 and stabilizing it?
<Mmm, the water changes you're doing... with the addition of a bit of
sodium bicarbonate (very safe) or a modicum of commercial aquarium pH
buffering product>
Once again, your advice is greatly appreciated and invaluable.
Michele
<Let's keep chatting this over till you feel comfortable with your
understanding of the underlying principle/s here... This aspect of water
quality (pH, alkalinity/acidity... "hardness") is too wordy in English
unfortunately... But once you grasp it... Cheers, BobF>
Re: Follow-up on Discovery of
Low KH after High Nitrates/low PH w/Melafix use 3/26/08
Hello Mr. Fenner,
<Just Bob please Michele>
Thank you so much for all of your assistance in explaining how KH factors into
maintaining PH. I have been doing some more reading and if I am understanding
correctly, the baking soda method needs to be replenished with each water change
(outside of the system in the new water) .
<Yes, this is best>
Since I'm not great at chemistry, and thus would be experimenting with the
amount to use to reach my goal, I fear that this leaves a lot of room for human
error.
<Actually, not much error possible. This practice, with Baking Soda is quite
safe>
So I think I feel more comfortable with a slow soluble carbonate substance such
as crushed coral or even crushed oyster shells and will experiment with a small
amount in the filter as a first corrective step to increase KH. The only crushed
coral I have been able to find however has aragonite mixed in as well. If I
understand correctly, this makes it more soluble, so is this still acceptable
for my purposes or would this make the tank too alkaline?
<No, not likely>
If not recommended for my purposes, I have also been able to locate crushed
oyster shells packaged as a "bird feed".
<Ahh! This material... usually some type of Dolomite ("Tapa Shell)... a compound
of calcium and magnesium carbonates CAN be very soluble... and a mess to
handle/deal with... too "cloudy" in preparation/use>
In the meanwhile I will continue with my water changes to further decrease the
nitrates and proceed from there. Thanks for the offer/opportunity to continue
chatting until I get a better grasp of the subject matter. I'm honored that you
would take additional time from your busy schedule to assist me.
Michele
<Am out in Malaysia currently... where am dreading the Net slow-down. Cheers!
BobF>
Re: Follow-up on Discovery of
Low KH after High Nitrates/low PH w/Melafix use 3/30/08
Good evening Bob,
<Mich>
I hope your trip to Malaysia is going well.
<Yes... but the Net is slow... and intermittent>
I did purchase the crushed coral and added a very small amount to the filter on
Tuesday. I figured I could always add more if needed. Since my nitrates are now
in 10ppm range, I've stopped the daily water changes and will continue as
necessary to keep them low. The PH was holding steady at 6.4 for a couple of
days without dropping.
Today it has increased to 6.6, so it seems that the coral is working. My KH test
kit still is reading very low (1 degree), but I'll give it some more time since
I seem to be making some progress. And speaking of progress, I actually managed
to talk my father into adding some coral to his filter as well.
<Ahh!>
I referred him to your site and our discussions; and I guess he realized that no
matter how long you've been in this hobby, there's always something to learn.
<Is so for me... and I am indeed an old timer in the trade, science and hobby>
Thanks again for your help. I have been enjoying chatting with you.
I will keep you posted on the progress of my tank, but I'm confident that the
coral will serve the purpose.
Michele
<Bob Fenner>
|
About my goldfish, dis. &
homeopathics... avoiding non "fixes" 10/23/07
My two new
goldfish have recently been developing small white spots on their back fins and
I was wondering if that might be Ich and if there is a homeopathy remedy that
can cure that? If not what else would you suggest? Thanks for your help!
Concerned Fish owner
<Sounds like whitespot/Ick. No homeopathic remedy that I
know of. Various tea-tree derivatives (Melafix, Pimafix, etc.) are on the market
but they don't really work reliably. Avoid them. Don't mess about with this,
because Ick is a killer. Go straight for medications that work. Your local
retailer will have a variety based on copper and/or formalin. Do also review
aquarium conditions -- fish get sick because of the aquarium, nine times out of
ten. Review our articles on goldfish care. Cheers, Neale>
Melafix 9/27/07
Greetings all!
<Neale>
I answered a message today that included a comment along the lines of "Wet Web
Media recommends Melafix for treating finrot". I'm very skeptical about Melafix.
My experience of the stuff is that while it's a fine antiseptic for use
preventatively, it isn't very reliable for treating infections once they've set
in. Do others agree or disagree? What's the balance of opinion here?
<Mmm, well... it seems that only Jeni is very gung-ho re this Melaleuca tea...
Others here will give some mention to this products weak
antimicrobial/germicidal effects... I am decidedly NOT a fan... Sensing that
westerners are too quick to seize on simple solutions... too often deem such
"remedies" as being (sure) cures... and too often losing livestock
consequently... Really... if you or your loved ones were sick... would you serve
them tea and be done w/ real medicine?>
I'm not trying to push for a resolution one way or the other. I'm just curious
to know if my opinion is in the minority, in which case I'll sit down and shut
up!
Yours etc.,
Neale
<I look forward to a time when products in our interest will have to face real
scrutiny... This and Pima- will surely be banned. Bob Fenner>
Methylene Blue
7/2/07
Dear WWM Crew,
My Betta has been lethargic for a couple weeks with no outward signs of disease.
I started treating him with daily doses of Pimafix and Melafix. I have also now
noticed a couple of white specs on the side of his head. I am planning to give
him a dip bath in Methylene Blue. Is it safe to do this while I am treating him
with Pimafix and Melafix? Jean
<Hello Jean. I'm a bit Old School about Pimafix and Melafix. I think they're
massively overrated, and have heard far too many stories of people using them
*instead* of traditional medications and their fish still getting sick. While
they may well be excellent general purpose antiseptics that help keep external
wounds clean, I can't see how they can treat internal problems. Whitespot, for
example, lives under the skin and is isolated from any medications, which is why
most treatments kill the free-living "baby" whitespot parasites rather than the
adults you see on the fish. So my recommendation would be to go ahead and add
some standard Methylene Blue to the Betta aquarium to fix the whitespot (as this
sounds like what you have). Stop with the Pimafix and Melafix while treating the
aquarium (mixing medications is somewhat unpredictable). Once the whitespot is
fixed, you can go back to doing your Pimafix and Melafix routine, though to be
honest you should need either if the aquarium has a proper filter, good water
quality, etc. Using Pimafix and Melafix as a standard addition to an aquarium is
essentially admitting the water quality in the tank is so bad its filled with
pathogenic bacteria. Think of it this way: it would be as if you let your house
fill with garbage and filth, but sprayed it with antiseptic so it'd be safe to
live in. If you just cleaned the house and installed plumbing, you wouldn't need
the antiseptic! This is one reason I abhor those horrid "betta bowls" you see
sometimes, with 1 gallon of water and no space for a filter. These force people
to keep Bettas on what's basically a live-support level maintenance regime of
constant water changes and additions of antiseptics and other supplements like
salt. If people just treated Bettas properly and gave them a nice 5 gallon tank
with an air-powered sponge filter, problem solved: nice, robust, easy to keep
fish. The irony is any money saved on a betta bowl compared to a sensible
aquarium is more than frittered away over the long term on all those silly
additives! Cheers, Neale.>
Blue Ahli -
Sad Story. Electric Blue Treated With Melafix – 06/15/07
I had the pleasure of stumbling onto your site after trying to do
some research for something that was affecting my Blue Ahli. (Like that
past-tense...?) Unfortunately, I wasn't able to find any medication that
could help the little guy out, and after 4 days of care the little guy
passed on. But, I wanted to pass this information on in case you guys
might have a solution and someone finds their fish are affected by a
similar problem. I apologize for the large pictures, but I wanted some
detail for myself, and didn't have Photoshop installed to reduce the
quality/size for you. Nonetheless, here's my story:
I put my 80 gallon tank back together (it's been dry for 2 years) about
2 weeks ago and purchased a couple of small Jack Dempseys, two small
Green Terrors, and two small Firemouths to start the tank. I also
purchased a ProClear 120 Wet/Dry filter to replace my old Emperor filter
that I had on there. To start the tank of with some bacteria my local
aquatics store offers what they call GO-Juice... it's essentially just
the crud they squeeze out of a used fish filter sponge. Works quite well
and I've used it before to start this tank off several years ago. Well,
the six fish were doing fine, but after about 1 week, I went back to the
store and noticed several Africans which caught my eye. Since the store
owner and I have known each other for quite some time, I asked if I
could trade in my juvenile South American Cichlids and get 4 Africans.
"No problem, just get the pH up, and you should be fine."
Well, this last Saturday, I traded in my Amazonians and bought two
Venustus, one Bleekeri, and a Blue Ahli. In order to get them used to
the difference in pH, I performed a drip over a 5 hour period into a 5
gallon bucket that they were in. The pH in Florida is kind of high
anyways, from the tap it sits at around 7.8 and the tank was probably at
7.4, so I performed a 15% water change to the tank to increase the pH a
bit more during the drip. When I was finished with the drip, (that
included taking out 50% of the water after it filled the bucket, and
running the drip some more) I put them into the tank and they appeared
to do well and seemed to get accustomed to the tank quite well. To aid
in waste removal, and since the filter at this point still really hadn't
built up the ability to remove ammonia or nitrites, I decided to also
add 4 plants; two Amazonian Swords, and two other freshwater plants that
have an onion like bulb at the bottom and are long and leafy.
It seems on Sunday all seemed to be doing well, and I was quite sure
everything was going to be alright.
On Monday, I got up in the morning to look at the fish, and I noticed
that the Blue Ahli had a white "mark" near the top of his right gill
(see attached pic 1) and he didn't eat any of the Cichlid pellets. I
didn't think much of it and I went back to the store and asked the folks
there what they thought I should do since the fish weren't so happy
about the hard Cichlid pellets, so I picked up some Super Soft Frozen
Food Alternative by HBH and I also picked up some Brine Shrimp. When I
got back to the house, I noticed the Ahli just wasn't going after the
new soft tasty looking pellets. Heck... he was not even interested in
the Brine shrimp... not one bit! I immediately took one of my 5-gallon
buckets and prepared it with a double dose of salt and dechlorinator. I
put an airstone in there and then put the poor sap in the bucket.
Well, I went back to work for a couple of hours, and then decided to go
back to the aquatics store and get their opinion the situation and one
of the clerks hands me some Maracyn. Thinking, wow that's pretty
stringent, I decided to stop at a PetSmart on my way back home, and
listened what the aquatics folks there had to say. They recommended a
bottle of Melafix made by API Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. Apparently this
stuff is all natural and the aquatics clerk told me, it's what they use
when they have problems with their fish. So, I decided to give this
Melaleuca based (extracted from Tea Trees) stuff a try first. (Boy... it
sure makes the water smell better... let's hope it works as well on the
fish) After I put the Blue Ahli in the bucket, he seemed to pep up a bit
and swim quite a bit more, so I thought this stuff should work quite
nicely then.
Tuesday... The Blue seems to be a lot more active, but no improvement in
the physical condition. The white area now appears to have some redness
in it, it's getting a bit fuzzy, and a patch of it seems to have
developed near the poor guy's mouth. Well, I did a 10% water change to
the water (since there wasn't a filter attached to the bucket), and
re-dosed it with the Melafix and Lake Salt early in the morning. I
figured that since he hadn't eaten in 2 days that the level of waste
shouldn't be too bad, and I tested the water at 7.8, zilch on ammonia
and nitrites... good to go I thought. Maybe this is just a part of the
disease's stages...
At lunch that Tuesday, I checked the Ahli... nope... seems to be little
worse. Still active, but the infection seems to be spreading. I put in a
1/2 dose of the Melafix and a full dose of the Maracyn. I immediately
busted out that old Emperor filter, cleaned it thoroughly and was
looking around for something to put it on since I don't have an extra
tank laying around. So, I found a 69 quart Rubbermaid plastic filing
bin. I cleaned it thoroughly and set it up with some bagged aquarium
sand I had sitting around (which I washed until the water came up clear)
all in a two and half hour lunch period (I'm on Salary ok?!! :-) ).
I also decided to stop by at the Aquatics store that evening and get the
owners opinion about the Rubbermaid container vs. the Bucket. Well, he
wasn't too happy about the fish's condition and he said that I was to
use a half dose of this green and yellow capsule. He said the water will
turn yellow which is a normal process. Keep the fish in the bucket, keep
aerating it as I've been doing, don't change the water, salt it every
morning with a normal dose, and bring him water samples. Well, that
evening kept a close eye on the water. The temp was staying at around 80
- 81F and the chemicals hadn't changed either... 7.8, 0, 0. Lets see
what the poor guy looks like Wednesday morning...
Wednesday morning came around... not looking good for the poor guy...
quite active, not darting aimlessly, just more active than when he was
in the 80 gallon tank. But, the whole right side of his head was now
affected! So, I changed 10% water, dechlorinated the added water, added
a little salt... not much, and put in another dose of Maracyn.
Lunch-time... no change, he seemed to be breathing in and out some skin
from his lips now and along with his eye getting a little cloudy from
the infection... looked quite sad really.
Didn't make me feel good either. Even the water's edge on the bucket had
a reddish tinged buildup on it... like his flesh was just liquefying and
floating to the top. That evening... not much better. Checked water
temp, chemicals... normal. I then had enough and popped in 1/2 of that
green/yellow capsule, no more Melafix! Let's see if there's improvement
the next morning.
Today... Thursday. Woke up... checked the fish. Yellow water, reddish
residue/buildup near the water level. Man... I'm not feeling good about
today. I called the aquatics store and asked if the owner was around
because I wanted to get his opinion about putting the fish down and out
of his misery... well he wasn't there and the clerk advised me that he
didn't think that the owner would want me to put him down just yet.
"Call back in an hour or so... he should be back from lunch." So, I went
home for lunch myself... as I was sitting at the computer, I hear
splashing from the bucket every now and then. Didn't think much of it...
maybe he's just getting restless in that bucket. A half hour later...
more splashing. I got up and checked the bucket... he was darting about
upside down before I got close to the bucket, and when I stood over it,
he stopped. Lifeless.
I got a net, pulled him out of the bucket, took my last few pictures
(also attached) and was quite amazed with the speed of which this
"disease" hit... and the fact that his anal region looked ulcerated...?
I'm thinking Mouth Rot that progressed to the insides? I'm not quite
sure...
The other fish in the 80 gallon... watching them like hawks and they
seem to be doing just fine. I make sure not to overfeed them, just
trying to prevent The Bloat and excess waste. I feed them once a day
now, ever since the Blue got affected by the disease... I was feeding
once in the morning, once at lunch, and then at night... small doses.
Now, just enough for each fish, like 1 - 2 pellets each. The Venustus
are about two inches each, the Bleekeri is about 3 inches long and they
are a joy to watch and feed. Just too bad the Ahli didn't have the same
success these guys did...
Anyways, there's my book and I'm sticking to it. Maybe this story will
help some other individuals with a similar issue and hopefully this'll
provide a better outcome for them. Do you guys have any insight on this
situation?
< Your Sciaenochromis ahli is an open water fish predator from Lake
Malawi. I suspect that during a fight or being chased he injured himself
on something in the tank. The wound got infected and a secondary fungus
infection set in. These fish are actually quite delicate as far as these
cichlids go. The stress from his injury and the high water temps caused
him to probably bloat up. So now you had two problems. An internal and
external infection. Although some people swear by it, I have heard that
Melafix works better as a general tonic then as an actual cure for most
diseases. I would of recommended placing the fish in a hospital tank
with clean water at 75-77 F. Treat with both Metronidazole for the
internal infection and treat the external infection with a full dose of
Nitrofuranace.-Chuck>
Other than that... you guys provide a great resource and you've helped
me be
more aware of treatment methods and medications. Regards, Mark
|
|
No tea please. |
Melafix, and Re: ongoing Af. cichlid prob.
– 06/19/07
Hello WetWebMedia,
<Mmm, well just one person...>
I recently had a question that was answered by Chuck and I thank you for the
input. I have a question about Melafix by API Aquarium Pharmaceuticals.
Mainly, what have you heard about Melafix, do you recommend the use of it, and
how would you use it, if at all?
<There are some of us here who endorse this Melaleuca extract for various
purposes, in some situations... I am NOT one of them though>
The reason being that recently I had a Blue Ahli in my 80 gallon display tank
that unfortunately may have had mouth rot, or as Chuck stated some type of
secondary fungal infection. When I first spotted a whitish spot on the fish I
immediately separated the fish from the main tank and tried treating him with
aquarium salt, 15% regular water changes, 80F water temperature, Melafix,
Maracyn and another antibiotic. (I had him in a bucket because that's all I
had). Unfortunately the Blue Ahli did not make it.
Here's my concern:
The remaining fish in my 80 gallon tank, a Bleekeri and two Venustus, seemed to
be doing fine during this whole Ahli ordeal. But, I was monitoring one of the
Venustus for frequent scratching on some flat rocks that I had in the tank. Over
a period of 3 days, the scratching became quite frequent. I watched the
chemicals in the main tank and the bucket religiously to monitor for 8 pH, zero
NO2 and Ammonia. I did have a little bit of a spike in ammonia in the big tank,
but I resolved this with a 15% water change. )I believe that there weren't
enough nitrifying bacteria in the tank)
Well, the one Venustus continued to scratch himself, and I've finally resolved
myself to separating him from the group also. This time he's in a 69 quart
Rubbermaid container with some sand and rocks, a filter, and a heater. I have
resolved myself to start treating him with a light dose Maracyn over then next
week. As far as the main tank is concerned, should I use Melafix just to keep
the tank in good condition or prevent possible infection? I have perform 10%
water changes on the tank every night so far.
The tank looks clear, the chemicals appear fine.
Do you have any suggestions for the separated Venustus and/or the Bleekeri and
Venustus in the main tank? (They appear healthy and quite happy).
Thanks again for all your input, I would just hate to lose the Bleekeri since
he/she is such a charming fish.
Mark Wolf
<I really only have two comments to make. If you were ill yourself, would you
first or even treat yourself with a leaf extract (of no known therapeutic
value)? And secondly, have you read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/afcichdisfaqs.htm
and the linked files above? Bob Fenner> |
|
