|
Sickly swordtails..... – 09/22/07
Hello again,
<Hello,>
So glad you "guys" are here. I took your recommendations once and am ever so
glad I did. I hope you can point me in the right direction again.
<OK.>
I bought a mix of swordtails. Immediately I could see two were struggling (
inactive, clamped fins) One died first night. Though I had been monitoring the
water quality this fast death prompted me to test again and the water was
perfect 0, 0 and about 10 nitrate. So, I did a little reading here and elsewhere
and decided the it was a fish with bad genes.
<Unlikely. When new fish suddenly sicken and die all at the same time, it is
almost always either [a] you added too many fish to an immature aquarium; or [b]
the water chemistry in your tank was so different to that in the retailer's
tanks that the fish died from water chemistry shock. Nothing else that I can
think of will cause what you observed, so pick and choose from them.>
The deaths continued sporadically over the next 4 days, the next being a
marigold mentioned above. I examined the dead fish but could see no signs of
anything. I was still thinking weak fish.
<Nope.>
Somewhere along the line, I increased the temp to 80 and added salt, my
reasoning being to prevent ich or other fungus from developing.
<Hmm... wouldn't be my first move. Admittedly, salt doesn't do any harm to
swordtails in small amounts, but if they're already stressed from some
osmoregulation issue because of water chemistry differences, adding salt could
make things even worse.>
Then I saw a male rubbing and decided to treat for parasites with Maracide.
<Why? This would be like you feeling sick and then doing a "lucky dip" at the
pharmacy, pulling out any old drug that came to hand and using that. Until you
are sure you have identified the problem, don't treat. Your doctor won't treat
you without identifying the sickness, and your vet won't treat your dog without
identifying the sickness. Seeing a pattern here...?>
Then a female red came down with this invisible malady, but occasionally showed
signs of recovery.....and then the males. The male lyretail showed the whiting
of the tail fin and his "trailers". I then discovered it on the female red
mention earlier though she could have shown it first......
<Too many fish too quickly to be "bad genes".>
Fin and tail rot was my diagnosis and I treated as such with tetracycline in a
separate treatment tank, the female red and male lyretail.
<Arghh! Put the medications down, and start looking at the tank. Check ammonia,
nitrite, pH, general hardness and carbonate hardness. Do you, for example, use a
domestic water softener? Lots of inexperienced fishkeepers do. But you mustn't!
Apart from creating entirely screwy water chemistry conditions, the shock of
going from the local hard water into the saline-but-soft water from a domestic
water softener is extremely bad for fish.>
The female died. In the meantime the marigold male was showing signs of illness
so in he went.....I think you get the picture.
<Yes.>
I am down to 4 out of nine swordtails in less then a week. Two never got sick,
one began to show signs (clamped fins and hanging occasionally) but since has
completely recovered on her own (the salt?) and one who is doing well but still
in treatment and isolation.
<Hmm.>
So, not impressed I went into the store today and sure enough, the tanks of
swordtails all look ill! I told the manager what was going on, including that
his own tanks were not well and he is being dismissive although I never directly
demanded compensation. I told him my approach and he said it was columnaris and
I needed to treat the whole tank or when i put my fellow back in he would get
sick again. He wanted to know what the lyretail was "on" before he recommended
anything. I called when I got home and told him and that the male was spunky and
eating. He then suggested I not treat the "tank" just keep on eye on it. He was
hesitant in his own recommendations and I think questioning himself too but
never revealed his thinking to me. Just a "keep on eye on the tank and call if
things change...."
<Doesn't sound like Columnaris to me. Columnaris is "mouth fungus". It is very,
very common on livebearers kept in water that is too soft. Mollies are the
archetypal fish when it comes to Columnaris infections. Anyway, the cure is
two-fold. Firstly, use an appropriate medication. Many finrot/fungus medications
will fix Columnaris, such as Interpet #8 Anti Fungus & Finrot; otherwise,
Erythromycin- and Furan-based antibiotics should work well too. Secondly, adjust
the water chemistry. Livebearers, with few exceptions, want as much carbonate
hardness as possible. Certainly, not less than 10 degrees KH and ideally 20
degrees KH or more. Please note that adding "aquarium salt" is NOT a substitute
for carbonate hardness, contrary to the myth. Salt has no effect on the
buffering capacity of the water, which is what's at issue here. To some degree
marine salt mix can work, but it also raises salinity. While guppies and mollies
don't mind (being able to live in seawater) platies and swordtails are not so
keen on salt.>
All this has me more worried then I was. Have I treated for the wrong thing?
<If you've treated a tank without a diagnosis, then the odds are good you've
done the wrong thing.>
Do I need to treat the whole tank? If so with what? I guess I need to know what
I should have on hand.....
<As stated above. Once the fish are healthy and the water chemistry is stable,
Columnaris shouldn't be a problem. It is one of those diseases (like Finrot)
that has practically a one-to-one relationship with poor/wrong water
conditions.>
Also, when reading up on columnaris I learned it was another one of those
bacteria always lurking, safely held a bay by the immune system. This makes
sense in light in the above circumstances, but why then would I treat a tank for
it and not the individuals succumbing to it?
<The opportunistic bacteria and fungi that cause these sorts of infections are
everywhere. They aren't "contagious" in the sense of sick fish infecting healthy
ones (as, for example is the case with Neon Tetra Disease). What happens is that
once fish are stressed, they whole community of them succumbs to the ambient
pathogens in the aquarium. Healthy fish in a stable tank aren't at risk though.
Once they become a problem you have to treat them, yes, but once healed they
should remain healthy, unless of course you mess up somehow and the fish are
stressed again.>
Why did I also read that it is highly contagious and the all equipment needs to
be sterilized or other tanks will be re/infected?
<Sterilising nets and such between tanks is good practise and certainly does not
harm. But this isn't really a factor here, because the fish have become sick
almost certainly from environmental issues.>
As I am sure you have realized by now I am concerned and worst of all, confused.
Cheers
Aileen
<Hope this helps, Neale>
Re: sickly swordtails..... – 09/22/07
Thanks so much for your quick reply, I was waiting for it posed to run back
into town this morning.....
<Happy to help.>
You are right about the water softener, partially. I have it only on the hot
water, the cold water bypasses the water softener.
<Be sure and check this: it is common here in the UK for water softener output
to be connected to all taps *except* the kitchen drinking water tap.>
To match up the temps I do run a little hot water but only minimal as the hot
water is really hot, you cannot put your hands in it. Still, could be an issue I
guess, though I have not experienced this with other fish, which include the
zebra danio, gold fish, diamond tetras and a dwarf gourami.
<Only one way to test: use test kits, and measure the GH and KH. Then you'll
know. Guessing your water chemistry is usually not a good idea.>
My thoughts are that they are thriving so the water should not effect the
swordtails so badly.
<Hmm... ain't necessarily so. Gouramis and Danios and Tetras are soft water
fish. Goldfish and Swordtails are hardwater fish. So what suits one won't suit
the other, and in fact the ideal conditions for a community of these fish MUST
favour the hard water fish for physiological reasons (in a nutshell, soft water
fish can adapt to a surfeit of mineral ions better than hardwater fish can
tolerate a dearth of them).
To minimize the shock do I drip slower, over what time period would you suggest?
<In practise, 30-60 minutes works well, at which point you remove the fish from
the bucket and add it to the aquarium. You avoid mixing water from the bucket
with water from the aquarium. However, if there are dramatically different water
conditions at home and in the tropical fish store, you might not be able to
adapt your fish easily at all. It's possibly, but you need to go slowly, and
ideally use a quarantine tank to adjust the fish over several days. This is why
messing about with water chemistry is such a VERY BAD IDEA. Find out what sort
of water your retailer has (probably local tap water) and keep your aquarium at
that. Once you understand water chemistry and have soft water tanks for tetras,
hardwater tanks for livebearers, and brackish water tanks for brackish water
fish, then you are ready to mix and match fish to the water conditions that best
suit them. But until that point, it's ALWAYS best to "go local" as far as water
chemistry goes, and let your retailer get through the risky stage of acclimating
the fish instead of you.>
I can only leave them in minimal water for only so long. Or do I only use the
cold water and change only what I can contain in buckets per week? Daily? How
will I handle maintenance?
<Adding up to 25% cold water to a tropical tank should cause no problems at all.
I routinely do 50% water changes using water from the cold tap. A temperature
drop from, say, 25C to 18C will not harm your fish at all. They experience this
sort of thing in the wild, for example during heavy rain (of which there's a lot
in the tropics!). Compared with the sea, where temperature is remarkably
constant, freshwater habitats are characterised by fluctuations in temperature
with season, rainfall, and time of day.>
Especially as it applies to the 125 g tank? I read somewhere that water was
cured in a bathtub, but then I would worry about contaminants, we use ours.
<No, you can't "cure" water. You put water into a bucket, and add dechlorinator,
and stir well. That's it. Repeat as required. Do check if your local water
supplier uses chloramine; if they do, select a dechlorinator that eliminates
this as well.>
As far as susceptibility of the stock I do have to wonder. Why are the tanks in
the store all sick too? Did he make the same mistake?
<No idea. Generally retailers are pretty good at keeping "bread and butter"
tropicals alive, because their profitability depends on it. But bad stuff
happens to the best of us. Maybe they got a bad batch of fish, that wasn't
packaged properly or something. Who knows?>
I do not know much about city treated water but I would assume being on the
Canadian Shield that we all have hard water.
<100% perfect for swordtails. Just let them have this "liquid rock" as well call
in in England. Livebearers will thrive in it, as will goldfish. Diamond tetras
generally do well with it too, and danios couldn't care less. Dwarf gouramis are
sickly, weedy things riddled with disease that die prematurely anyway, so who
cares?>
To add to this mystery, the other fish place in town lost a tank full of
swordtails too. I knew they had a new shipment two weeks ago and I knew they
were treating the tank last week. From what I could see yesterday they had lost
the vast majority of them but didn't want to talk about it.
<I bet.>
I thought the evidence pointed to something that came with the fish. They
treated with Maracide and something else I do not remember what a sale girl told
me last week.
<OK.>
And about treating without diagnosing the issue.
<Yes...?>
I did read, and look for symptoms and follow the suggestions. The addition of
salt is all over the web as a cure to help with all fungal infections is it not?
Some people keep salt at low doses continually. Many, at the first sign of
illness suggest salt at the rate of 1 tablespoon/ten gallons.
<And I object to this greatly. Adding salt is Old School fishkeeping. Back in
the day, people didn't do water changes. They thought water changes were bad. By
adding a small amount of salt, you detoxified (to some degree) the nitrate, and
also (to a less degree) reduced the toxicity of ammonia and nitrite left over
from inefficient filtration systems. In out brighter, brainier days we instead
use proper filters and do big (50%) water changes once a week. So salt (like
activated carbon) is obsolete. Indeed, salt isn't part of the natural
environment for most freshwater fish, and can potentially place a stress on
their osmoregulation systems. While tiny amounts of salt (like the
teaspoon-per-gallon type things) probably do no harm, they don't do much good
either, so are at best a waste of money. Finally, compared with real
antibacterial and antifungal medications, salt just isn't all that effective by
itself. It has its uses to be sure, but no vet or professional fishkeeper I know
of suggests using it as a permanent addition to the freshwater aquarium. It's
just a hangover from the past.>
Like you, I do not agree that it was columnaris according to what I have read.
Although I am aware that the columnaris and tail and fin rot share the symptom
of frayed, whitened edges, I did not see any other symptoms of columnaris.
<Agreed, and this is why I favour medications such as eSHa 2000 that treat
finrot, fungus, and Columnaris equally well. No fuss, no muss.>
And I do not see how he glimpsed in his tanks and diagnosed it either, for I saw
no evidence of it in his tanks but then he is in the fish business and perhaps
he was already aware the tanks were sick and did not want to tell me. In fact I
saw no evidence of illness regarding growths or rot of any kind, his fish were
listless and fin clamped. If not diagnosing the problem by what you see, how is
it to be done?
<Diagnosing many fish diseases is more about the situation than the symptoms. If
a newbie fishkeeper tells me they just bought a goldfish and now it has white
slime, I know finrot or fungus are likely problems, simply because those two
diseases are incredibly common in tanks with poor water quality. Likewise when
someone says their goldfish or cichlid has "swim bladder disease", experienced
fishkeepers will say, "No, they have constipation", because we know
inexperienced aquarists rarely give goldfish or cichlids the plant foods they
need. A lot of aquarists bounce buzzwords about like "internal bacterial" or
"gut parasites" without having even the vaguest clue about how to identify these
things. In your situation, I have no precise idea what is causing the deaths,
but I do know what sorts of things kill off newly-bought livebearers within a
short space of time. Water chemistry and water quality are the top two things,
so checking them is always a good idea.>
Ahh, the parasite treatment.....that was one of the "fish experts" in the
"other" store in regards to the information I gave him regarding the rubbing by
one fish. I must learn to follow through by what I know and not what they tell
me in the store.
<Indeed.>
I have to learn that the fish experts are me and those I trust...... confidence
building that I will work on as I delve deeper into this hobby. Still, when you
are experiencing a die off, what are the steps you would take? How would you
handle this?
<Easy. Firstly, ALWAYS check nitrite. Nitrite gives you a snapshot of how well
the filter is working. It's better than ammonia or nitrate, both of which can be
misleading (ammonia because it reflects only "half" the filter bacteria, as well
as ammonia in your tap water, and nitrate because it's likely to be in your tap
water anyway, regardless of how well your filter bacteria are working). Next up,
check the pH. Again, this is a snapshot of water chemistry. Fish don't actually
care about pH, they are far more sensitive to the hardness, but a sudden change
in pH is easy to spot and indicates at once that water chemistry has gone
screwy. Once I'd done the nitrite and pH, I might then break out the general
hardness test kit. This gives you nice overview of the water chemistry. Right,
if all these check out, I'd look at the filter and the heater. Are they working
properly? I'd also look around the house to see if there are any extrinsic
factors. Bug spray, solvents from things like paint, and small children are
common factors (children drop things into tanks...). I'd also review any changes
I'd made. Have I added any new wood or plants? Bogwood that hasn't been cured
properly, for example, can change the pH quite rapidly. Have I added new fish?
These are a potential (probable) source of infection, especially opportunistic
things like whitespot. Finally, I'd check social behaviour. Are any fish
suddenly aggressive? Have I added potential fin-nippers? Cichlids for example
can be mild as milk most of the time, but if they decide to breed, they may
systematically wipe out their tankmates. A lot of so-called community fish nip
fins. Tiger barbs, Serpae tetras, black widow (petticoat) tetras, and Synodontis
nigriventris are classic examples. Factoring out these things eliminates 99% of
the likely sources of problems.>
So, the next steps, expand my water testing kit. I only have ammonia, nitrite,
nitrate, ammonia and ph (7.8). Do not treat the tank. Finish what I started with
the last sick fish,? Then reintroduce him and watch?
<Always always always finish courses of medication. When you're done, then let
the tank sit for a few weeks. With luck, the fish will recover. Absolutely do
not add any new fish. I personally ALWAYS treat fish in the tank, and only
remove them to a hospital tank if the injury is so severe the fish cannot feed
or is likely to be bullied. Moving fish about is very stressful to them, not
least of all because they are away from the school mates and suddenly have to
adapt to a new set of water conditions.>
Sorry, hate to be a pest but I am concerned and want to learn how to handle my
tanks, water and fish. I promise I will function more independently in this
regard at some point in the future.
<Very good! The main thing is to read, experiment, record what you're doing, and
make sensible choices afterwards. Sometimes you'll discover you have no luck
with one particular species, no matter what. For me, that's Neon tetras. Your
local water conditions, the quality of the available stock, the existing
residents in your community tank, and your own fishkeeping skills are all
factors here. So cross those species of your list and move on. Other times, you
may simply find one retailer just doesn't sell good quality fish. I have a quiz
somewhere here at WWM all about how to judge your local retailer, but basically
look in the tanks. If the fish are all healthy and well fed, that's good; if the
tanks are dirty, the fish all look scared or sickly, and you spot lots of dead
fish, then that's not such a good store. In which case move on, and patronise
another retailer.>
thanks so much
Aileen
<Phew! Hope this helps, Neale>
Re: sickly swordtails..... – 09/22/07
Hi,
Just home and read your email.
I would never have dreamt in a million years that I could do a water change with
cold water but you are right, water layers (stratification I think it is called)
and therefore there are hot spots and cold spots all through standing waters. So
you make perfect sense.
But that is not what this email is about. I just wanted to say thank-you for the
guidance. I know you have given my fish and myself a lot of your time and I want
you to know I really appreciate it.
Aileen
<Happy to help. Obviously, you can't dump freezing cold water into a tropical
tank. I've done that (by accident) and the fish go loopy, losing their balance
and keeling over. They recover as the tank warms up, but it's scary! But adding
room temperature or slightly cooler water, like that from a regular cold tap, is
generally fine. A water temperature difference of a few degrees C won't do any
harm at all, and many fish, like danios and Corydoras, positively enjoy it. And
yes, the distribution of water at different temperatures is called vertical
stratification. It's a very important phenomenon, particularly in the sea. A lot
of fish have a preferred water temperature range, and will move up and down the
water column to find the temperature they want. There's even some evidence sick
fish will move into warmer water than they normally prefer so they can
effectively "run a fever" to get through an infection! Cheers, Neale>
Re: Sick
Swordtails 9/27/07
Hi Neale,
This is one of the sick swords that died this morning. In one of the
pictures you can see the evidence of fin rot. I know I should send these
with our previous discussion but I am not sure how small these need to
be so that they are received by you.
This is one of the batch of fish that have become sick in the store.
Can you tell me what may have killed this fish?
Thanks
Aileen
<Hello Aileen -- I can't see anything obvious to blame here. Just looks
like a dead swordtail to me! Can't really expand on what I said before.
Cheers, Neale.>
Re: Emailing: dead fish 001, dead
fish 001right side, dead fish 002left side, dead fish 003 top – 9/27/07
Thanks, just worried about the others.....it is no wonder everybody
is giving fish tanks away....
<Honestly, keeping fish is remarkably easy once you understand and
implement the basics. People do sometimes fail when they start, and then
give up. But truly, it's like riding a bike. You have to learn from your
mistakes, and once you've done that, it's really an easy hobby, at least
as far as basic community freshwater fish go.>
I ordered the meds you recommended and the tests kits, but it was held
up and will not be here until tomorrow. In the meantime I found a bypass
on the water softener and so disconnected it (actually, I was not sure
and so disconnected a lot of things) and then did tons of laundry.
<The domestic water softener exists to provide water that doesn't dump
lime scale inside pipes, washing machines, dishwashers, etc. What
domestic water softeners don't do is produce "real" soft water of the
sort fish need. All they do is replace lime scale salts (carbonates and
bicarbonates) for non-lime scale forming salts (mostly chlorides). It's
questionable whether domestic softeners even make water that is good for
humans to drink, let alone pets or for fish tanks.>
What I have discovered with your prompting, is the well water's
(unsoftened) ability to increase in ph. I know to a certain degree what
I will find with those tests. It also means that water changes will have
to be handled with care.
<In an aquarium stocked with hardwater fish -- things like livebearers,
including swordtails -- hard water is a GOOD THING. Livebearers love
"liquid rock", as do many other types of fish, including certain
cichlids, Australian rainbows, goldfish, and brackish water fish.
Assuming you have an aquarium stocked with livebearers, then don't worry
about the rise in pH. Even pH 8, 20 degrees dH, will be a slice of
paradise for them!>
There are so many variables here that could have contributed to this
fiasco.
<Indeed. But as I say repeatedly to aquarists having trouble -- the key
is to find out what your local, raw water is. Then select fish that like
that kind of water. It's like a guy setting up a zoo in Alaska. If he
chooses to keep penguins, seals, and reindeer, he'll find his job easy.
But if he decides to keep camels, elephants, and crocodiles, you know
he's going to have to do a lot more work.>
Aileen
<Cheers, Neale>
Re: sickly swordtails..... –
09/29/07
OK. Sorry to bother you again but I think the problem is water
changes. Despite the popular recommendation to water change etc. I think
it can become problematic in and of itself.
<Water changes should never cause problems. Assuming you're doing them
right, and have fish suited to the water you're putting into the tank,
the bigger the water changes, and the more frequently you do them, the
better!>
Would you please confirm what I am thinking.....
<I'll try.>
My water has a very high KH and GH.
<Define "high"? Don't tell me what you think the scores are on the test
kit in relative terms... give me NUMBERS! A general hardness of 20
degrees dH would be high for a Rasbora, but perfect for a swordtail. So
it all depends on the fish, you see.>
Apparently it is great for brackish systems..lol.
<A reminder: choose fish according to your water, and all will be well.
If you have "liquid rock", then livebearers, goldfish, certain
killifish, many cichlids, Australian rainbows, fresh and brackish water
gobies, pufferfish, etc are the way to go. There are even tetras that
are adapted to very hard water, for example the cave tetra and the x-ray
tetra (this latter, Pristella maxillaris, is even found in brackish
water and does well at up to 35 degrees dH!). Barbs and catfish also
tend to be rather indifferent to water hardness, especially the riverine
rather than blackwater species. So simply accepting you have hard water
and picking livestock according to that is in no way a handicap.>
The water softener is still off and so this is straight well water.
<You should only ever use "raw" water in the aquarium, never water
that's gone through a domestic water softener. Domestic water softeners
don't soften the water -- they simply change the mineral content from
one your test kits measure (temporary hardness, i.e., carbonate and
bicarbonate) to one you test kits cannot measure (salinity, i.e.,
chloride salts).>
I have tested it and when aerated the pH climbs and levels at about 8.0
which I am seeing maintained.
<A perfectly acceptable pH for hard water fish. Assuming this is
concomitant with a high level of hardness, and not, for example, coming
from ammonia, there is nothing to worry about. The pH range for
Corydoras catfish for example is 6-8 according to Fishbase, and
Corydoras certainly do well in the London tap water around 20+ degrees
dH.>
The 100g has lots of driftwood but it was well "conditioned" and
besides, with those readings one would expect it to have little effect
on water with such a high buffering capacity, Yes?
<Broadly speaking, yes, in water with a high carbonate hardness (degrees
KH, rather than degrees dH) pH fluctuations should be very slight.
That's the big advantage of having a high KH, and why marine aquarists
and African cichlid keepers focus on KH to such a high degree.>
I have gotten the same reading on water straight from the kitchen tap
and in a bucket of standing water that had been drawn two days prior,
and from the outdoor tap; the 7.4 that is.
<Not sure what this sentence means. Where did 7.4 come from? Are you
saying it is pH 7.4 out of the tap, but when aerated it the pH climbs to
8.0? That doesn't really make much sense. Aeration drives off carbonic
acid but that really shouldn't make a big difference in hard water
because the carbonic acid will be pretty well neutralised anyway. Have
you tested for ammonia? Often, if there is chloramine in the water,
adding standard dechlorinator to the water splits the chloramine into
ammonia and chlorine, the first of which elevates the pH.>
The reading of 8.0 was from an aerated bucket, the 110g the 20g, the 10g
and the 5.5 g.
<OK.>
This is explained by the high hardness or the carbonate to carbonic
acid... and this change according to what I have read is enough to
stress fish.
<Not convinced by either of these statements.>
Of course, I cannot bend my mind around the chemistry yet to figure out
what this would all mean when the water is softened in the house water
conditioner.
<In terms of aquarium keeping - nothing! Do not use domestically
softened water in an aquarium. Period. End of story.>
The carbonate would be replaced by sodium, so would be removed but the
buffering capacity of the water would also removed so?
<Yes, and also the chloride salts stress the fish.>
Is there a ratio that could be combined to offset the disadvantages of
both?
<Not as such, no. Just determine accurately what your raw water supply
pH, general hardness, and carbonate hardness are -- and choose fish
accordingly. Your life will be 1,000,000 times easier.>
For now, this means that I can change no more water then I can aerate in
buckets prior to the change. Well probably a small portion direct from
the well wouldn't hurt but it cannot be enough to effect the pH.
<Broadly, yes, this approach is sensible. But I can't see why aerating
water should dramatically change the water chemistry. There's no
chemical reaction. As I say, check the ammonia, or at least, make sure
you are using a dechlorinator that removes chloramine as well as
chlorine.>
And I must be particularity careful when dealing with fish demonstrating
signs of duress.
<All the fish care about is that the water going into the tank has
approximately the same water chemistry as the water that was taken out.
All freshwater fish have some tolerance for changes in water chemistry,
so you don't need to be paranoid. They all live in environments where
things like heavy rain and droughts can suddenly change the water
conditions. So, let's start by establishing what the water chemistry of
"raw" water is -- pH, dH, and KH. Then add dechlorinator, stir well.
Test the pH, dH, and KH again. Next, aerate for a couple of hours. Test
the pH, dH, and KH again. Finally, test the pH, dH, and KH of the
aquarium one week after the last water change. Give me ALL FOUR sets of
numbers. From these, we can probably work out what's going on, and
MOREOVER, whether there's anything here likely to put your fish at
risk.>
I have had a small tank in the living room for years without any
problems or real knowledge or attention to the details. In fact the
goldfish in there has been with me for a long time, six or seven years.
<Goldfish love hard water, so if you're giving them hard water, they'll
live forever!>
But, I think I often set out a bucket the night before or only topped up
the tank. With all the reading and tanks, I started doing more water
changes and using the handy tool that came with the big tank. It both
siphons and then adds water to the tank.........
<It adds water direct from the tap? How do you dechlorinate the water?>
I still believe these swordtails were not up to snuff as there are a
number of factors pointing in that direction. But it seems that the more
I tried to help them, the more I may have been adding to whatever ailed
them. Other species have survived and in fact flourished over the past 2
months. Just in the past couple days, some of the diamond tetras have
matured and now I see the lovely, violet coloured fins I have read
about.
They're nice fish.>
Hopefully these guys will be ok in my liquid rock.
<Yes, kept them thus and they're fine.>
Though I know I am pushing the limits as far as they go. But they are
shimmering beauties. But back to the point, they have not been
undergoing treatment and large water changes and daily water changes
and.......
<Indeed.>
In the meantime, the last of the swords has today developed the obvious
systems of ich, though I know it could be other things according to the
pages of WWM, they are all treated in the same way, again from the above
mentioned pages. I suspect with all this mucking around that I have
infected my 100g, though I am certain the others are o.k. I know you
would prefer I not treat the 100 until signs of ich are there. Now, is
that true or is there some preventive steps I could take.
<I'd treat the tank at the first sign of scratching, but perhaps not
before. Whitespot doesn't tend to kill fish quickly, so you *do* have a
breathing space to diagnose and then treat the problem.>
I am exhausted from nursing the swords and would prefer to head it off
if that is possible. Besides my kids and dogs are starting to show signs
of jealousy, the cat of course loves all the action, the pony is full of
burdock and the lizard needs his sand cleaned......and oh boy, will
water changes on that 100g be fun....
<Sounds like you have your hands full.>
How 'bout that Maracide????
<For what? Whitespot? Never used it. But it is sold as a whitespot
treatment, so presumably works.>
Thanks
Aileen
<Cheers, Neale>
Re: sickly swordtails..... – 9/29/07
Hi Neale,
<Aileen,>
One last thing before I carry out your instructions.
<Yes?>
Are you aware that I am on a well?
<Nope.>
It is 100+ year old, hand dug and lined with stone.
<OK.>
My water is not from a municipal water supply, it is out of
the ground.
<Ah, in that case testing the water chemistry becomes even more important.>
Something is indeed increasing the pH with aeration. I have tested this
numerous times in different circumstances and the factor does seem to be
adding oxygen.
<No idea why.>
Even a standing bucket does not increase in pH, though I
should check that again too; I still have one that has now been standing in
the dark for 4 or 5 days with no agitation of any kind. It is not due to
ammonia which reads 0 out of the tap.
<Very good.>
I can still get some water conditioner and see if this has any effect.
<Always worthwhile. A good dechlorinator will deal with things like ammonia from
agricultural run-off, copper from the pipes, etc.>
I think there be a test kit or two I have not bought yet too.
<Nitrite, pH, and general hardness are the key ones, carbonate hardness and
nitrate are useful. The others are all optional extras. In my opinion, anyway!
There are some nice dip-stick type things that test all of these at the same
time. Good value if you slice them vertically to get two tests per strip.>
Phosphates?
<Not normally a problem in freshwater tanks. I'd sooner have the pet store do
this test, if they will, for a $1 or whatever than buy a test kit specially.>
They cause lots of problems in excess but could they be contributing to pH
issues?
<Can't see why.>
And by the way, I have read and in fact printed your article on hard-water
fish......
<Hope it'll help! Assuming your other fish are fine, and your swordtails
eventually settle down, I'd tend to step back and let things progress a while.>
Thanks
With much gratitude
Aileen
<Let me know what those water chemistry stats are right out the tap and again
after aeration, and then I might be able to help further. Cheers, Neale>
Re: sickly swordtails..... 10/3/07
Hi have some water specs. for you to look at.
<Hello Aileen,>
By the way only one swordtail survived. He has never shown any signs of illness
(touch wood) and it will have been 3 weeks this Friday. I have not gone into
town lately to see what the loses were at the first shop, the one where I got
the swords but I suspect they were high. So sad.....and not a particularly
pleasant experience.
<Too bad.>
Some of these parameters were checked twice, if the results seemed a little odd,
I did it again.
<OK.>
Fresh from outdoor tap:
KH degrees 15, 268.5ppm
GH degrees 25, 447.5ppm
PH 7.4
<Perfect for swordtails.>
Aerated 12 hours:
KH degrees 15, 268.5ppm
GH degrees 23, 411.7ppm
pH 7.8
<Still good for swordtails. No idea why the GH has changed though.>
Standing bucket (week):
KH degrees 14, 250.6ppm
GH degrees 23, 411.7ppm
pH 7.8
<So no change here.>
Bare tank:
KH degrees 12, 214.8
GH degrees 15, 268.5
pH 8.2
<Still fine for swordtails.>
This 10g tank received a water change last night and so it is a mix of "fresh"
aged water and older, cycled water. It was there so I tested it.
This of course explains the increase in pH, the GH is making a significant
decline over time and the KH is also declining although in a less dramatic
manner.
<Aeration and "sitting around" shouldn't -- can't -- change the GH. Something
else is at work here. GH is a measurement of dissolved minerals, and aeration
can't drive minerals into the atmosphere! I simply don't understand what is
going on here.>
Clearly aeration speeds up the process.
<Can't see what process though. Doesn't make any sense at all.>
I am sure if I test the buckets tonight (and I will) the pH will have increased
and the other parameters with have decreased.
<Oh.>
Any ideas?
<None at all.>
I have not yet gotten the water conditioner although this will be something I
will try.
Thanks
Aileen
<My only thought is that your well water contains minerals or pollutants that
register on the test kits as general hardness or cause the pH to register at
some level, but aeration and/or time and/or temperature cause these chemicals to
change in some way the hardness and pH readings change. Normally, hard water is
chemically very stable. Nothing aeration does can change that. It is possible I
suppose that the water from the well contains a lot of carbonic acid (dissolved
CO2) and aeration drives that off, raising the pH. But it's certainly something
like that going on. But I've never heard of this situation before, and honestly
can't offer anything sensible as an explanation. In terms of aquarium husbandry,
the answer is simpler: do small, regular water changes. Perhaps 20-25% weekly.
Take great care not to overfeed the fish. Provided the water changes are small,
any background fluctuations in water chemistry will be moderated by the other
80-75% of the water in the tank. Further, all the water chemistry readings are
"hard and alkaline", so provided you pick species that enjoy such conditions,
like livebearers, there's no real problem about what precisely the pH and dH and
KH values are at any given time. Sorry can't offer any deeper wisdom! Neale>
Re: sickly swordtails..... 10/3/07
Thanks Neale,
<Hello Aileen,>
I think you are right about the dissolved CO2. Yes, I have been reading.....
<Very good.>
I do appreciate you getting me to take a closer look at the water though, it is
something that is often dismissed, other then the "big three" I have worked out
a system for water changes erroring on the side of caution, though it has never
hurt the healthy fish, at least in no ways that were obvious to me visually.
<Small water chemistry changes shouldn't do any harm at all, so this approach is
sound.>
The buckets are being aerated 24 hrs, two buckets every 2 days. This is a system
I can handle.
<Sounds a lot of work to me. I'd put the water straight into the tank (after
dechlorinating) and see what happens. Try 10%, say. The differences between the
"before" and "after" values you sent me are so small as to be irrelevant. If the
water pH was going from 8 down to 6, that would be different.>
I may have to increase that at some point as the numbers increase but right now
that keeps the 0, 0 less then 20 numbers stable. Actually the nitrates have been
at 10 for over a month.
<Good.>
That over feeding thing you mention will take enormous self control. Ha, ha. It
is just so much fun to feed fish!
<One trick is switch to more green foods. Many fish will thrive on a low
protein, high greenery diet. Or you could switch from high protein flake to low
protein frozen food. Bloodworms for example are only 5% protein, compared with
flake at around 40% protein. It isn't the volume of food that matters, but the
amount of protein, since it is protein that metabolises to ammonia.>
I am going to let everything settle another week and then take a look at those
rainbow fish... Swordtails are still on my list but I think it best to wait a
few months on those.
<Agreed. Maybe shop around, or even see if you can buy online from a serious
swordtail breeder. The wild-type fish are nice and generally hardier than the
fancy sort, so bear that in mind too.>
Thanks again for all your guidance
I suspect you have made me a more conscience fish keeper for it
Aileen
<Good luck, Neale>
Re: sickly swordtails..... 10/3/07
Hi have some water specs. for you to look at.
<Hello Aileen,>
By the way only one swordtail survived. He has never shown any signs of illness
(touch wood) and it will have been 3 weeks this Friday. I have not gone into
town lately to see what the loses were at the first shop, the one where I got
the swords but I suspect they were high. So sad.....and not a particularly
pleasant experience.
<Too bad.>
Some of these parameters were checked twice, if the results seemed a little odd,
I did it again.
<OK.>
Fresh from outdoor tap:
KH degrees 15, 268.5ppm
GH degrees 25, 447.5ppm
PH 7.4
<Perfect for swordtails.>
Aerated 12 hours:
KH degrees 15, 268.5ppm
GH degrees 23, 411.7ppm
pH 7.8
<Still good for swordtails. No idea why the GH has changed though.>
Standing bucket (week):
KH degrees 14, 250.6ppm
GH degrees 23, 411.7ppm
pH 7.8
<So no change here.>
Bare tank:
KH degrees 12, 214.8
GH degrees 15, 268.5
pH 8.2
<Still fine for swordtails.>
This 10g tank received a water change last night and so it is a mix of "fresh"
aged water and older, cycled water. It was there so I tested it.
This of course explains the increase in pH, the GH is making a significant
decline over time and the KH is also declining although in a less dramatic
manner.
<Aeration and "sitting around" shouldn't -- can't -- change the GH. Something
else is at work here. GH is a measurement of dissolved minerals, and aeration
can't drive minerals into the atmosphere! I simply don't understand what is
going on here.>
Clearly aeration speeds up the process.
<Can't see what process though. Doesn't make any sense at all.>
I am sure if I test the buckets tonight (and I will) the pH will have increased
and the other parameters with have decreased.
<Oh.>
Any ideas?
<None at all.>
I have not yet gotten the water conditioner although this will be something I
will try.
Thanks
Aileen
<My only thought is that your well water contains minerals or pollutants that
register on the test kits as general hardness or cause the pH to register at
some level, but aeration and/or time and/or temperature cause these chemicals to
change in some way the hardness and pH readings change. Normally, hard water is
chemically very stable. Nothing aeration does can change that. It is possible I
suppose that the water from the well contains a lot of carbonic acid (dissolved
CO2) and aeration drives that off, raising the pH. But it's certainly something
like that going on. But I've never heard of this situation before, and honestly
can't offer anything sensible as an explanation. In terms of aquarium husbandry,
the answer is simpler: do small, regular water changes. Perhaps 20-25% weekly.
Take great care not to overfeed the fish. Provided the water changes are small,
any background fluctuations in water chemistry will be moderated by the other
80-75% of the water in the tank. Further, all the water chemistry readings are
"hard and alkaline", so provided you pick species that enjoy such conditions,
like livebearers, there's no real problem about what precisely the pH and dH and
KH values are at any given time. Sorry can't offer any deeper wisdom! Neale>
Re: sickly swordtails..... 10/3/07
Thanks Neale,
<Hello Aileen,>
I think you are right about the dissolved CO2. Yes, I have been reading.....
<Very good.>
I do appreciate you getting me to take a closer look at the water though, it is
something that is often dismissed, other then the "big three" I have worked out
a system for water changes erroring on the side of caution, though it has never
hurt the healthy fish, at least in no ways that were obvious to me visually.
<Small water chemistry changes shouldn't do any harm at all, so this approach is
sound.>
The buckets are being aerated 24 hrs, two buckets every 2 days. This is a system
I can handle.
<Sounds a lot of work to me. I'd put the water straight into the tank (after
dechlorinating) and see what happens. Try 10%, say. The differences between the
"before" and "after" values you sent me are so small as to be irrelevant. If the
water pH was going from 8 down to 6, that would be different.>
I may have to increase that at some point as the numbers increase but right now
that keeps the 0, 0 less then 20 numbers stable. Actually the nitrates have been
at 10 for over a month.
<Good.>
That over feeding thing you mention will take enormous self control. Ha, ha. It
is just so much fun to feed fish!
<One trick is switch to more green foods. Many fish will thrive on a low
protein, high greenery diet. Or you could switch from high protein flake to low
protein frozen food. Bloodworms for example are only 5% protein, compared with
flake at around 40% protein. It isn't the volume of food that matters, but the
amount of protein, since it is protein that metabolises to ammonia.>
I am going to let everything settle another week and then take a look at those
rainbow fish... Swordtails are still on my list but I think it best to wait a
few months on those.
<Agreed. Maybe shop around, or even see if you can buy online from a serious
swordtail breeder. The wild-type fish are nice and generally hardier than the
fancy sort, so bear that in mind too.>
Thanks again for all your guidance
I suspect you have made me a more conscience fish keeper for it
Aileen
<Good luck, Neale>
Attention Neale: Re: sickly
swordtails 10/3/07
Hi Neale,
<Amanda,>
I hope you don't mind me butting in here, but I may have some information that
could help with Aileen's situation. Well help is probably not the appropriate
word because I can't tell you how to stop it from happening, but it may help
shed some light on the subject. From my understanding she uses well water, which
is where all of this starts.
<Indeed... so what do you think is happening...?>
I know I am a bit late with this one, I got a bit behind on the reading of the
daily FAQ, but hopefully it will help someone.
<Let's hope!>
Groundwater. When a well is dug it taps into underground aquifers (I can hear
you already, I know, it's basic, I'm getting there, a person has to set the
scene you know). Now there is a big difference between subsurface water and
surface water. Surface water picks up lovely things from storm water runoff like
excess nitrates, phosphorus, gross pollutants, hydrocarbons, that sort of thing.
Which is treated for in our water treatment plants, so when we get water out of
the tap we drink lovely things like chlorine and chloramines......mmmmm
chemicals.
<I even have the Homer Simpson visual to go with that last comment...>
Now well water is a whole different ball game. It's natural, and more or less
tends to be unpolluted by anthropogenic causes. This, however, doesn't mean that
it doesn't contain contaminants, or analytes for a better term as they are
naturally occurring. The make up of ground water is often determined by the
chemical make up of the rocks surrounding it and what sort of rock, or ground it
needs to percolate through to reach the subsurface aquifer.
<Indeed.>
Now things like granites can contain high levels of heavy metals, minerals and
other various analytes which get dissolved into the water as it moves through
the rock. Now some of these chemicals which are dissolved into the water while
in the aquifer are inert as there is nothing there for them to react to. When
this water is pumped up from the well into the air it is now exposed to things
which it was never exposed to while in the aquifer. There is fresh air, and lots
of it. Air contains things like oxygen, and nitrogen, and carbon dioxide and the
like. Now this could cause chemical reactions depending on what analytes are
dissolved in the water.
<Makes sense.>
The things in the water could combine with things in the air which they were
never exposed to and it could cause them to precipitate out of solution. Similar
to what occurs when you have unbalanced calcium and alkalinity levels in a SW
tank and get the infamous 'snow storm' effect.
<Yep, sounds plausible.>
Something to look for, which would indicate that this indeed is what is
happening, is a film on the bucket/container in which the water is in. If there
is a film or precipitate there that wasn't before the water was aerated, it's
very likely that she does have some analyte in her water which is reacting to
something in the atmosphere which is causing it to precipitate out of solution
which could be causing her rapid decline in GH and KH.
<Ah, I see. Not something I have ever experienced, but your logic is flawless.>
So no, aerating the water isn't pushing dissolved minerals into the atmosphere,
so much as it is allowing the dissolved minerals to react with something in the
atmosphere and precipitate out into the bucket.
<Yes, agreed.>
I tend to get a bit long winded and wordy. Sorry if that doesn't make sense, I
don't often explain myself well. Just a thought. Not sure if it helps you any or
not.
<Helps a great deal, and I hope it helps Aileen too.>
Thanks for your time and I hope I didn't step on any toes with this one.
Amanda
<No, not at all. Thanks so much for writing and better yet presenting your
thoughts in such a clear and scientific way. Much appreciated! Cheers, Neale>
Neale Monks. The case of the
ever dying swordtails..... 10/25/07
Hi Neale,
Remember me? The case of the ever dying swordtails.....
<Indeed. Hello again, Aileen!>
Well, I wanted to let you know that some new denizens of the deep joined my tank
after a couple of weeks quarantine. I have attached a picture for your perusal.
Thanks for steering me in their direction.
<Hmm... no attachment arrived!>
In the meantime, I am looking for some stocking guidelines as I plan the final
additions over the next couple of months. My nitrates have not moved above 10 so
I would think even with the addition of the five rainbows that I am o.k. to
proceed?
<Indeed. Nitrate is a very good guideline, though nitrite also tells you whether
or not the filter is coping with the bio-load, so keep tabs on them both.
Generally though, a decent biological filter will handle a significant bio-load
*provided* it is given time to adapt.>
It is a 110 g tank rather heavily decorated along the back and open in the
front. 5ft long, 18 inches wide and 2 ft. tall. Two Emperor 400s maintain the
filtration. With a old fashioned box filter helping things along but actually
for emergency tank set-ups, it only contains floss.
<Sounds good.>
Further statistics necessary include, hard water with a high pH...
The present inhabitants include:
3 swordtails 1:2
3 platys 1:2
9 diamond tetras
5 boesemanni rainbowfish
12 zebra danios (I think, they are most difficult to count....)
1 Bristlenose cat
2 loaches (yoyo)
<All good choices for hardwater aquaria. However, loaches in general shouldn't
be kept singly, and the Yoyo Loach (Botia almorhae) is no exception. For best
results (and minimal aggression towards the other fish) get at least 6
specimens. The loaches will be out in the open more, and they'll direct all
their energy towards their pecking order, instead of harassing the other fish
(something loaches are wont to do). Think of Tiger Barbs and how they become
nippy when kept in 2s and 3s, and these loaches aren't far off.>
I am considering adding:
6 swordtails, 2 male and 4 females
7 neon rainbowfish (Melanotaenia praecox)
<Also excellent fish.>
And wondered about threadfins (Iriatherina werneri) and Corydoras (Corydoras
sterbai). I am not sure what an over-stocked, bottom dweller equation is.
<Threadfins are hardy and superb community fish -- but they are a target for
nippy or aggressive fish. I wouldn't trust Swordtails around them. Swordtail
males especially are very intolerant of anything in the upper level of the tank
they prefer. In a 110 gallon you might be fine -- there's just no guarantee.>
Your opinion on this would be greatly appreciated and any other suggestions that
you may have.
<I'd perhaps skip the Threadfins and leave them for their own aquarium at
another time, perhaps mixed with gobies or Corydoras. You might try keeping
multiple Bristlenose cats -- they are *relatively* easy to spawn, and the baby
catfish are not in the least difficult to rear. They're not quite as easy as,
say, guppies, but they're not far off. The "kittens" (as baby catfish are known)
are adorable. I have a soft spot for Halfbeaks as well. These make a great
alternative to livebearers, and while they are a challenge to breed in some
ways, once the fry actually arrive they're easy to rear and remarkably big.>
Aileen
<Some ideas for you to play with. Good luck! Neale>
|
.JPG)
.JPG)
