Copper Treatment and Tank Usage   3/3/08
Greetings,
As per your fantastic site I removed all fish from my 75 gal Ich infested reef tank and I am letting the tank fallow while I treat the fish in a borrowed QT. BTW, I will absolutely be purchasing a QT of my own prior to any future additions to my reef tank.
<Yay!>
My QT is using a sponge filter cured in the reef tank and a glass bottom with PVC tubes as well as a skimmer.
<Mmm, no skimmer while using copper compounds... removes them too readily>
Do I need to be concerned that use of copper sulfate may be absorbed into the borrowed tank which the owner plans to use as a cichlid tank when I return it to him?
<No... not much will be absorbed...>
Besides a complete cleaning, are there any other steps I should take before returning his tank?
<A thank you card perhaps... or other acknowledgement>
And finally, is the Red Sea Copper Treatment and Red Sea Test Kit (used 2 times a day) a the best way to go?
<Is useful>
Thanks so much for providing this site and this education. I currently use and will continue to use your sponsors because of this service.
Kris.
<Ahh! Thank you for this. Bob Fenner>

Safe amount of copper in source water? 2/18/08
Good Morning/afternoon/evening, (whichever the case may be)
<AM in HI now...>
I apologize if I missed the answer to this question whilst scouring over, under and through the many helpful WWM faq's. I've been pleased and appreciate very much what you all do for the many fans of this aquatic hobby. I've always found my answers via your WWM google search tool but alas not this time.
I have a 75 gallon reef system which I have just recently (In the last 8 weeks) restarted. It was a beautiful success for a few years thanks very much in part to your helpful resources on the WWM site. After a tragic heater malfunction
<Mmm, better to use two, multiples of lower wattage...>
I lost everything (in the dead of winter while we weren't at home with only a wood heat source). After a year of "letting it go", nothing but sand and live rock left, I decided to get back into it whole hearted. I now use two heaters both above scale for my size tank so if one of them decides to thwart my hobby the other will surely save the heart ache.
When I ran this system before the tragedy I purchased and lugged all my ro/di water and it was a huge pain.
<Better by far to have your own at home>
If my question here doesn't go the way I hope then I will be buying and hopefully installing without much incident a unit of my own.
<Is actually quite simple, even fun...>
To my question, at last. Last fall I purchased a Crystal Quest water purification system with 7 stage filtration. It turns out some really great water, it removes chlorine/chloramine, nitrite, nitrate, heavy metals, all kinds of nasties...BUT it uses a ReDox method with copper and zinc in one stage and therefore adds >0.05mg/l of copper and .46mg/l of zinc. Is this amount enough to worry about?
<Mmm, no... not in almost all circumstances>
or will it have an accumulative effect in my aquarium?
<Not cumulative... this bit of free metal readily insolubilizes... drops permanently out of solution, for the most part>
I did a huge water change with this water when I resumed rebuilding the system and have done a few smaller changes since. I didn't think about the copper addition till earlier today then I started searching the faq's. I don't have a copper testing kit as I never had to use copper when I ran the tank before. Not that I would dream of using it in the tank, I mean for quarantine purposes) I got those specs and totals from the Crystal Quest website. I've had a variety of inverts in there for a couple of weeks (dwarf hermit
crabs, 4 or 5 varieties of snails, a sally light foot, bristle worms, spaghetti worms, a green star polyp, variety of amphipods, copepods, mini-brittle stars, a couple of tiny Asterinas, and an anthelia polyp from IPSF.
<Oh! Am out near there currently... Hello to Ger Heslinga!>
All are doing wonderful and showing no signs of stress or sickness. I do have a DSB and about 175 pounds of live rock. Great copper absorbers I know. I don't know exactly how much copper that comes out to in parts per million since it's listed as mg's per liter. These are equivalents... there are 1,000 grams of water to a liter... and a thousand milliliters to a gram of water... a million milligrams of water per liter... mg/l is the same as ppm>
In reading the faq's many times I've noticed that Mr. Fenner dismisses a negligible amount of copper.
<I do... some, a "trace" amount is actually necessary to the health of almost all life...>
I'm just not sure as to what that amount might be outside of food additives and such. Will this water be safe with the small amount of copper and zinc or should I be getting an ro/di unit soon?
<You are fine here... as stated, this small quantity of metal is taken out of solution readily, won't return under "normal" aquarium conditions. Not to worry>
Thanking you very much in advance for your time and consideration,
Sally
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>

Please help/Copper 01/21/2008
I have read the FAQ of WWW until I am blue (with copper) in the face! I am seeing so much mixed answers, issues, etc. I am just confused and want to do what is the best thing for my reef. We have a 75g up and running for a year and a half, 100lbs LR and about 80lbs of LS and of course fishies and several corals (SPS, LPS, softies, mushrooms, Claim, etc.).
<... these are not all "Corals">
Our corals started dying, claim died and then overnight all Stomatellas, worms, Chiton and other inverts were dead.
<Yikes!>
After a ton of research we found out that we had a brass fitting in the sump area by the water pump.
<Ohhh>
We now know, no brass. So replaced it, put the poly-filter pad in, did a water change and tested for copper. Test came up negative, the poly-filter pad, after about 12 hours turned a pale blue gray color.
<Indicative>
My question, some say replace all LR and LS because it will leach (even after running poly-filter, etc. to pure white), others say it will be fine eventually.
<Likely the latter is more the case>
Common sense tells me if
all inverts are dead, how can the LR still be live?
<Mmm, this material, live and not, can/does ab/adsorb quite a bit of such metal... and has remarkable (hence the re-marking) "powers" of regeneration>
We want to again have a
full reef. Is it a matter of preference to replace the LR or a matter of necessity?
<Choice does come into play, but if it were me/mine, with this blind guess, I'd keep the present carbonate material, and in time, add a few pounds of new over the existing>
I want to see little critters at night when the lights are
out. please help! Thanks so much, Geri.
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>

Re: Crypt. and starting over
Dear Mr. Fenner, thank you for your response to my last Email. I did review info on dips/ baths and Crypt in your book as well as on the website. After several bad decisions what I'm left with is multiple Crypt casualties and a fishless 60 gallon FO tank which has been treated with Cupramine. I plan at this time to let the tank go fallow. I have raised the temp to 85 degrees. Should I remove the copper with carbon at this time or let it ride until the end.
<Leave as is... it will "complex", be gone in a few days to weeks>
At this temp would four weeks be enough time rid the tank of Crypt cyst forms.
<... see WWM... the longer, the more sure>
Lastly, I believe my initial outbreak of ich began because of a freshwater (adjusted for temp and ph)/Methylene blue dip which was too short in duration, about one minute. Because the water turns so dark with the Methylene blue I feel I am unable to monitor the fish for agitation. Two quick questions then I'm done. First, if the fish is not jumping and breaking the surface can I wait five minutes before removing from the dip solution and adding to my QT.
<Better to not "blue" the water to such a degree... and watch for overly labored breathing...>
Last, can I leave the fish netted in a large net during the entire dip or dose this increase stress.
<Is fine to leave in a net... I and the fine folks I worked with at our stores did this for tens of thousands of specimens...>
It would certainly limit my stress. I'm determined to reestablish my tank and not leave the hobby and I have appreciated all of the valuable information on your site. Thank you, Mark Conley.
<Good luck, life to you Mark. Bob Fenner>

Copper Removal 9/20/07
Good day,
<Hello Eric>
I have a pretty specific question. I have read a ton, and don't believe this to be in the WWM FAQ's, but I could be wrong.
To make a long story short, about 2 months ago I treated my 2 (only 1 fish showed signs, but treated both to be sure) marine fish for Ich. They were put in a 20gal high AGA hospital tank with water from my larger system, no filtration (only water circulation) and copper, measured and dosed correctly. ( I believe it was about .15?.. What the instructions stated...)
The fish remained in the tank and I tested and changed the water and tested the copper levels (added more when necessary) to be sure they remained constant for a period of approximately 28 days.
Thankfully, the fish recovered and are currently doing great in my 55 gal display tank. I do closely monitor my fish, even more than I did before.
After I placed the fish back in the main display (they are the only 2 fish in there) I changed all the water from the 20 gal and replaced with new water and 2 activated carbon bags were placed in my Aquaclear filter. I ran this for a period of one week and changed the carbon bags out, replaced them with others.
Now that the (necessary) background is out of the way, my question is as follows: I would like to set this tank up. I want to keep it simple, as it's a small tank. I do have a different tank that can be both a hospital and quarantine.
Since it's so small, I would like to keep a few small fish (maybe a smaller goby or a clown or 2, but that's it) and some inverts such as shrimp, snails, hermits, etc. However, I have heard that the silicone in the tank will more than likely still contain copper, and this will "slowly seep back into the water overtime" (quoting an employee at the LFS).
Is this true? Will the amount be so large that it will adversely effect the  inverts?
<Yes, can happen as invertebrates are very sensitive to low levels of copper. My advice would be to use a Poly-Filter in this system. If any copper is released or present, the Poly-Filter will have a blue tint to it indicating copper presence. The Poly-Filter will remove copper from the system. In the size tank you have, I'd cut the filter into four equal parts using one at a time. If the blue tint is visible, replace with another pad. The Poly-Filter does not have to have water flowing directly through it to work, just placing it in the tank with good water flow around it will do the trick.>
Thanks,
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Eric

Reuse of Hospital Tank that had copper sulfate.  6/23/07
Hello folks! Greetings from the great state of Texas and thanks for all of your wonderful advice. I have been using a 10 gal glass tank as a hospital tank and have used it to treat with antibiotics and copper sulfate (CopperSafe). Recently , I set up a larger 30 gal hospital tank for a powder blue tang and rusty angel, both with ich. I would now like to use the 10 gal with a small powerhead and some live rock as a quarantine tank for corals and inverts. (In the future, nothing goes into my display without a 30 day quarantine to be sure any ich or other parasites that might me hitching a ride are eliminated by the natural life cycle.) Hope that makes sense. I am now ich paranoid. Anyway, my question is, can I safely use the 10 gal for this purpose or is it possible that the silicone may harbor and release enough copper to create a problem?
Thanks and Best Regards, John
<Highly unlikely a problem... however I'd clean the tank out thoroughly (which am sure you have already) and might run activated carbon in a bag for the first few months... to help the ensconced invert.s as well as pick up any trace of Silastic released copper trace here. Cheers, Bob Fenner>

Use of aquarium after copper treatment 6/6/07
Hello WWM Crew,
<Hi>
Just a quick question. A friend of mine just bought a used aquarium that was used for freshwater. He plans on setting this tank up as a reef. The thing is, he doesn't know if copper has been used in this tank. I've heard that you should not use a tank that has been dosed with copper to house invertebrates (which are quite sensitive to copper). Is this true? <Mostly, depends on how much copper and how long of an exposure.> Is the copper binding to the glass? <No> Or the silicone? <Yes> Is there something we could do to make sure all the copper has been eliminated and make sure that it is safe to keep inverts? <Yes, there are copper test kits available, you will need a couple because of the various forms of copper. Also, Poly-filters are good at removing copper and change color depending on what they are absorbing.>
Once again, thank you very much for your time,
<Welcome>
Marc.
<Chris>

QT equipment, Cu exposure  - 05/01/07
I have a 30 gallon long QT/hosp tank with Emperor 280, AquaC remora skimmer w/MJ1200 and MJ1200 for flow. All this equipment has been exposed to copper, can it ever be used in a regular tank again? Jeff
<Yes... no problem. Very likely what little copper that has "plated out" on the surfaces of this gear has become insoluble... You can use it, test for free copper if you intend to utilize it with invertebrates, algae... But I doubt if any Cupric ion will show. Bob Fenner>

Copper in tank
Hello. <Hi, Chris> First of all, I would like to compliment you on your great website. There is so much great info. <Yes indeed, just scratched the surface myself.> My question is in regards to copper use in a fish and live rock tank. I had an outbreak of ick a little while back and my LFS gave me some sea cure and told me to put it in my tank as directed. Since then I have discovered that that was not a good idea. Have I completely ruin my live rock and sand? I really want to get a nice coralline covering. Is this still possible or should I start over?
I know that the website said that my tank would never be suitable for invertebrates after copper use. Is there any way it could be? <Afraid so> I would really like to have some snails and cleaner shrimp. The same guy also told me that a freshwater dip was the worst thing you can do to a fish. After reading all the info on your website, I am starting to second guess anything he has ever told me. Please give me any info you can. I am in desperate need of some GOOD information. <I think it is time to 'fire' this LFS and find another! Using the rock/tank for fish only tank would be OK after removal of all copper in the water column. Use Poly-Filter and carbon and a good test kit to confirm> Thank you so much! Keep up the great work!
Thanks again ~ Chris
<Will do, and take care, Don>

Ongoing Ich Problem, Crypt causes   1/24/07
Bob:
<Teri>
I wrote you a couple of months ago regarding my previous problems and future plans regarding Ich.
After my last outbreak I removed all fish and put them in a 90 gal bare tank (with water properties very close to the tank they came from).
After they had acclimated I brought the copper level up to .25ppm.
I removed all water, sand and rock from the infected tanks and cleaned both (the small one (24 gal quarantine tank)) I dried and ran fresh (RO) water through for 36 hours).
I replaced the water, sand and rock in both.
<... for what reason/s?>
I then put the corals, sponges, shrimps, urchin, clams, snails & hermit crabs back in the 120 reef tank and ran it fallow for a little over 2
months.
<Okay>
After about 3 weeks the bioload on the 90 gal bare hospital tank was hard to control with so many fish in it, so I put 7 small ones in the 24 gal (which has sand & rock) and ran it as a quarantine tank with no copper for 4-5 weeks and had my LFSs keep 12 others (8 in copper .20ppm+/-, 3 isolated in a 20 gal stand-alone rock tank).  The 12th that the LFS kept (Carpenter’s wrasse) we put in invert cubes (without copper) and left it there for 5 weeks (didn’t develop anything during that time).
<... my friend... Crypt was likely just sub-clinical... is still there>
I left the ones at the LFS there for roughly 5 weeks and none of the fish showed any signs of Ich.
<Again... most stores have resident (ongoing) parasite "issues"... Cross-contamination is the majority rule rather than exception>
After a total of 4 weeks I began to reduce the copper concentration in the
bare 90 gal tank, down to .10-ppm.
<No sense... Most any value below 0.15 free cupric ion is more deleterious than useful. Do you understand this stmt.? Not useful to have less than a physiological dose present>
Last week I moved the 5 from the 24 gal tank back into the 120 gal tank and watched them for over a week – all ok.
I then moved 6 from the LFS back to the 90 gal tank (including 2 new ones), 3 to the 24 gal & I put the one from the invert cubes and two that’ve been in the isolation 20 gal rock tank for 5-6 weeks (with no sign of problem)
into the 120 gal tank.
Last night I found a heavy infestation of Ich on the one from the invert cubes
<... more susceptible species, individuals... the vector almost certainly from the LFS...>
(I pulled him from the 120 gal tank and tried to keep him in a small container (w/air stone & heater) but he died sometime last night.
So:  My current status is:  
9 fish in the 120 gal reef tank,:
(2 maroon gold stripe clowns,
  1 Firefish,
  1 Gudgeon,
  1 Rainford Goby,
  1 Scissortail dartfish,
  2 Neon Gobies &
  1 Cleaner Wrasse)
<Inappropriate...>
3 fish in the 24 gal quarantine tank:
(1 Potter’s Angel
  1 Eibli Angel &
  1 Flame Angel) all getting along,
<But very stressed, I assure you, in this proximity>
6 fish in the 90 gal bare quarantine tank:
(1 ½ black Mimic Tang
  1 Lemonpeel Mimic Tang
  1 Kole Tang
  2 Wrasse &
  1 Foxface)
I’m obviously going to leave the fish in the 24 & 90 gal tanks where they are until I see what might develop in the 120 gal tank.
<Yes... this is what I would do as well>
Since there’s obviously been an outbreak of Ich in the 120 gal and so that I can effectively plan for current treatment and eliminate future issues:
1. Is it most likely that it came in with the wrasse from the Invert cubes or did it manage to survive 2+ months in a fallow tank?
<... from the store>
2. What should my next steps be (I’ve read and re-read all of the FAQs regarding Fallow tanks, Quarantine tanks, Ich treatments, etc) and am at a loss as to what else I can do.
<You are at the "cross in the road" where you can broadly decide on one of two paths... the re-treatment of all outside the infested system... Or staying the course, hoping for a balance in a sort of "ping-pong" of infestation in the present situation... with tools like supplementation, good water quality, perhaps ameliorative measures like the use of UV, Ozone... to tilt the balance your way...>
I thank you in advance for your invaluable advice.
Best Regards
Teri Hewson
<I am overly familiar with the situation you are in... and entirely empathize... I have taken whole holding facilities animals back down to the shore and released them... in the hope that some would cure/survive... While nuking/bleaching their on-land systems... to rid this pest... Bob Fenner>

Re: Ongoing Ich Problem  1/25/07
Bob:
<Teri>
Thank you very much for your time & insight.
<Welcome>
A couple of clarifications:
1.  The .10ppm copper comment - I'm in the process of doing water changes to get it down to 0.00ppm and that’s where it was when I introduced the fish
(Yes, I do understand your comment.  I didn't mean that I expected it to have any "medicinal benefit".  Sorry for the mis-cue).
<Mmm, and in an effort to be clear/er... there is actually a residual debilitating effect of resident copper... I encourage you to purposely remove it... With activated carbon, PolyFilter, a product engineered for this purpose.>
2.  Regarding your question on why I removed the sand, water and rock.  It was in hopes of eliminating as many Ich entities as humanly possible (obviously could do anything to eliminate them from the corals and their coral or rock bases), in hopes that that step, plus the 2 months of fallow period would eliminate the critters.
<Not a worthwhile activity IMO/E... the tomites are about in "enough" quantity to cause your fishes (and you) woe... I'd leave all present>
Do I take it from your comment regarding the Ich at a sub-clinical level, that no amount of fallow time will ensure that no Ich remain in the tank?
<Mmm, correct in an absolute sense... but was referring more to the situation at hand... that the fish in the cubicles "just didn't show" signs... but were highly likely infested>
To guarantee no more Ich in the tank, would you recommend starting over from scratch (including new corals/inverts) and then follow your quarantine/F/w dip procedures when SLOWLY reintroducing the fish?
<Mmm, no... not unless let's say this were a service account, or some sort of wholesale facility... that required this expedient... I would re/consider the option ranges as stated... to re-treat all (yourself), allow the main system to go fallow... or try to achieve a balance of infestation w/o deaths>
With regard to the “ping-pong” direction:  I do have a UV system.  What supplementation measures would you recommend as the most effective (usually).
<Posted... along with the concomitant rationale...>
Relative to your comment following the Cleaner Wrasse:  In my defense, I got him before I read that they’re not a good aquarium candidate, and now he, along with my clowns, is my longest lived fish.
<Wow! Very good>
He will, in fact, beat all other fish to food when it’s introduced into a tank (bare, reef or what-ever) and he’s a pretty active cleaner as well.
Finally:  Most of the remaining fish in the 120 gal reef tank have gone thru at least one outbreak of Ich, so are probably ok to leave in the tank?
Other than they’ll be providing hosts for the Cryptocaryon?  Or should I remove them.
Thanks again for your advice
Best Regards
Teri Hewson
<This is so. RMF, who wants to remind you that much of what is presented is done for "general" consumption... i.e. written in mind with ultimate posting, reading by all.>
PS:  I’ll split up the Angels if you think that’s best (but they really
don’t seem to mind each other).
<Up to you.>

Re: Ongoing Ich Problem, note to move copy of corr. to Copper Use FAQs   1/26/07
Bob:
Again, thanks.
Your comments Re: copper finally sunk in.
Added activated carbon, metal sponge and am doing 10gal water change/day.
I'll let you know how the situation develops.
Cross your fingers, please
Regards
Teri Hewson
<Thank you. BobF>

Copper... measure mostly    1/17/06
I have a copper question.  I know it is not good to have in your main tank, which is why I started a new 125 gallon reef ready tank and used my own RO/di unit, but after making the initial 125 gallons of water that read 0 on my TDS meter, and getting that in my tank.  My next water readings were in the 50's, then kept getting a little higher.
<... in the presence of? Gravel, rock? Sea salt? All will show, increase TDS>
I didn't think much of it, but I found out I need to repack the di membranes.  Anyway, I had some copper tests left over from my previous tank and decided to take a test just for kicks.  It turned out that the reading was at .05.  (the lowest # on the scale, however it was picking it up).  
<Likely artifactual>
My question is, Is the copper that I got out of my tap water through my di unit as harmful and hard to get rid of as the actual regular copper medication.  I bought a Pura filtration pad and am running that, along with activated carbon in my powerheads.  
I have 150 lbs. of live sand, and 100 lbs. of live rock, and one tomato clownfish in the tank now.  Everything seems fine, but I want to get the copper out.  It's probably been in for maybe a week or two before I caught it and put the Pura pad in.  Am I too late, or do I still have some hope.  
Please advise me.
Thank You for all of your past and Future help.
Aaron
<Not a worry... even if present... will be transient. Bob Fenner>

After Copper Treatment   1/8/07
Hello, Mr. Fenner and crew!  
<Hello Bob, Mich with you today.>
Words can't describe how much I have learned, and enjoy your website.  
<Glad to hear this!>
My sons aquarium received a dose of copper to rid it of crypto while his care.  Sadly, he lost his entire population of fish, and has now lost interest in the hobby.  
<Sorry on both the loss of the fish and the loss of interest.>
The tank is a 55 gallon, and is decorated with coral, none of it the living variety.  I have left the tank fallow since December 24th, and would like to get it going once again; I have had marine aquariums on and off since 1973, but I have never tried anything other than a fish only system.  Now, on to my question.  Can I use this aquarium, its sand and some of the bare coral in a live rock system?  
<Possibly.>
Does the application of copper eliminate it as a viable aquarium for anything other than fish only marine keeping?  
<Mmm, not necessarily.  The first thing I would do is buy and use a test kit for copper and find out what the levels are in the system.  If you have detectable copper levels you can try running carbon, PolyFilters, CupriSorb or ChemiPure alone or better in combination of your choosing.>
I would like to spend the upcoming weeks making the switch to live rock, perhaps introducing a crab or organism of that nature, but frankly, I don't know if it is OK now that it has been exposed to copper.  
<Crabs are quite sensitive to copper.  I would make sure there's no detectable copper present in you system before adding any crabs.>  
Any help you could lend would be very much welcomed.  Please keep up your terrific work; you are a tremendous boon to the hobby.  
<Thank you for these most kind words!  -Mich>
Sincerely, Bob Thomas.  

Coppered Tank - 25/08/2006
Hello WWM crew, greetings from Macedonia    
<Hello Boris, You've got John from Shanghai here.. dusting himself off after an extended absence>
I have a question for a friend of mine. The situation is like this: He has a system previously run fish-only, in which he regularly dosed copper-based medication.
<Yikes!>
After that he acquired some live rock but contrary to recommendations he didn't change change 100% of the water, but only 50%.
<I fear that even a 100% water change would not be sufficient. Likely even the very silicone and glass in the tank is contaminated.>
Then regularly for 7-8 months each 10 days he change 10% of water.
This system does not work well for him with corals, which is to expected.
<Yes, most invertebrates will not tolerate copper>
We wonder now, as he is planning a new system, should we use this live rock in a new system?
<I wouldn't. I also wouldn't use this tank in a reef system again. Should be OK for a fish-only system, but the live rock may be... rather "dead.">
Thank you in advance
<You're welcome! Thanks for writing. John W.>
Boris

Re: Coppered live rock follow up - 1/9/2006
Hi John,
<Hi again Boris.>
Thanks for the reply. One more question, LR is somewhat full of live, small amphipods and copepods are crawling. There is Coralline algae growth too. One more suggestion please?
<Hmmm it doesn't sound too bad if 'pods are surviving. I still would be very cautious about putting coppered rock in my tank. Perhaps you could set up a small holding tank and introduce a fish /invertebrate as a bio-assay? Best regards, John>
Cheers
Boris

Activated Carbon/Medication Removal   7/10/06
Hi
I have a question about activated carbon. I added some medication to my 55 gallon display tank to try to cure the outbreak of ich to no avail.
<Was treatment maintained for 24-28 days.>
So I have decided to remove all my fish into 2 QT tanks and let the display go fallow for a month. Can I just place bags of activated carbon into the
display to absorb the medication and turn on my skimmer too, or do I need to place the carbon into the actual canister filter tray?
<Is better to place in a canister filter.  I'd leave the skimmer running.>
I will do water changes too, of course, and try to siphon up any of the parasites that may be on the sand bed.
<No need to siphon parasites, will die within the 30 day period without a host.>
Hopefully in a months time it will be a much better environment for the fish to return to.
<Yes, and do quarantine future additions for 28-30 days.>
In the meantime what invertebrates are best for aeration of the sand, starfish or hermit crabs? Thank you for all your help.
<Sand sifting starfish work best, and in a 55, I would only add one.  James (Salty Dog)>
Albany

Live Rock...Copper  - 05/29/06
Dear Crew,
Thank you for the great information that you provide to us hobbyists. <You're welcome.> I have read all the information, and varied opinions that involve live rock and copper in your FAQ's but I still find no resolve to my current situation. I have a 45gal FOWLR with about 50lbs of live rock that was, of course, beautiful till I added CopperSafe to the tank to cure an ich problem. My LFS provided the insight, I provided the ignorance. I have removed all of the copper, via CupriSorb and Boyd's ChemiPure. I have 0 copper in my tank as far as a test kit goes, yet kept it all in there due to your FAQ's regarding possible leaching. My rock is all brown now, and I am adding a small amount of new "live" rock at a time to try and "seed" the rock back alive. Is this possible, or hopeless? I see no featherdusters on my old rock, or anything else that seems "alive". I would assume that the wet/ dry I have is keeping things half way stable as far as my bio-filter goes, I have stable readings across the board as far as testing goes (ammonia, PH, Nitrite all 0, and less than 10 ppm nitrate) Is the rock that I have going to be a bio- filter still, or is it now base rock?
Can what was lost, become "alive" again?
I miss all my little critters that were all over in there, thank you in advance for all your help (crew) you are an inspiration to us all out here.
<Billy, even though you read 0 for copper, the rock has absorbed copper, almost acting like a protective film on it preventing any living organism from growing on it.  I believe it would be quite some time before anything will grow on it.  I would suggest replacing your tainted/treated rock.  Do consider a quarantine tank in the future.  It will eliminate this problem.  James (Salty Dog)> <<RMF would suggest that this rock is likely fine, the copper rendered almost solubilized completely. I'd add some new on top to re-seed it>>
Billy

Re: Live Rocks and Shrimps... Copper removal  - 05/22/2006
Dear Mr. Bob Fenner
<Rachel>
I have emailed you earlier when I treated my main tank with copper. Fortunately it got rid of White Spots (knocking on wood) and now I have some other concerns. It has been about 3 weeks now and my fish are doing great in the 80G. About 2 weeks ago I did a 25% percent water change and placed 2 large packs of Super Activated Carbon to get rid of the Copper. When the copper was added to my tank about 2 months ago my protein skimmer was removing copper with large amounts of form formation so I turned off the skimmer.
<Yes, usually necessary>
In the current scenario after treating the tank and adding the Activated Carbon I turned on the skimmer, for the first day or two it created some form and then worked as usual/normal. I have some green & brown algae also growing nicely on the sand bed and some rocks now.
<An indication of a lack of copper>
So I was wondering is it now okay to add some new cured live rocks into my tank? Does the green and brown algae formation show signs of a Copper-free environment?
<Yes and yes>
Also I am wondering whether to add a couple of shrimps to my tank. I know they are very sensitive to copper but do you think it’ll be fine now?
<Very likely so>
Normally do you dip the shrimps in a freshwater bath like new fish?
<No... is quite harmful to these and most other invertebrate groups. I would NOT do this>
And also as shrimps are not a vector for white spots (learnt from your FAQs), is it alright to add them straight into the main tank with careful acclimation? Thanks, Best regards,
<For observation and "rest" considerations, is best to quarantine these animals as well... There is generally little risk of introducing disease, parasites with crustaceans however... It is merely that they are "wet", and their water, exoskeletons might bring along such that is a concern. Bob Fenner>
Rachel

Re: "melting" corals 12-12-05 follow-up to the follow-up... processing possibly contaminated RO   1/19/06
Hello, Bob.  My priors are below for review of my system.  Have now lost the torch coral, too.  Pachyclavularia and leather mushroom remain, and a plate
that looks like it's struggling.  The fish are just fine.  I may have figured it out, but I'm not sure, and wanted your opinion.  I place some PolyFilter
during my troubles to combat negative cnidarian interactions, and when I pulled it, it was blue.  
<Yikes!>
I've never medicated the tank, but I bought a copper test kit....
0 in distilled water
.15 mg/L in the tank
.25 mg/L + in my RO water that I've been using (new filters a month ago)
I noticed a very recent email on your site about copper in the source water, and you guys recommended RO, but I'm already doing that, and still with the copper.
<Very strange>
I started the tank with bottled water, not RO, so I'm wondering if after time and water changes over several months, copper accumulation may be
the issue in spite of the RO I'm using now...
<Could be... the blue color...>
Does this make sense that the copper at those levels is killing off my livestock?
<As stated, a possibility>
If it does, how do I combat?  Does carbon pull out copper?
<Yes... activated>
Do you think it would be sufficient to continuously run carbon and/or PolyFilters, or do I
need to convert to (expensive) bottled water for all my water changes and top-offs?
Haven't lost hope, yet, but I'm getting there.....
Tim
<Processing your RO water in a container that hast activated carbon in a filter... should definitely do it. Bob Fenner>

Copper In Source Water - 01/13/2006
WWM Team,
<Hey Joe!>
I have researched a lot on the web, books, and your FAQ and most of this topic are about Self Inflicted Copper Levels (i.e. Ick Treatment). My concern is slightly different and info seems to be limited. I have well water and when tested came out at 0.2-0.3ppm for copper.
<Argh! That's no good.>
I am getting ready to add some Live Rock to a newly set-up tank, and need to know if this would kill the LR and I'm just wasting my money?  
<The copper would kill invert. hitchhikers. Best to solve the copper problem before adding to the tank.>
I also had plans on a Volitans and a Snowflake Moray which I know are both scaleless and sensitive to Copper. Should I be worried?
<I think you are right to be.>
What can be done to help with this (Carbon, RO, or Both)?
<I would go RO for well water.>
I was not quite planning on an RO unit but if it is needed then so be it. Didn't know if I could solve this with Carbon alone.
<I believe your safest bet is to go RO.>
Thanks as always!
Joe
<You're welcome. - Josh>

Re: Copper In Source Water - 01/13/2006
I bought 80 gallons of Purified Culligan Water for original set-up, and will be picking up an RO unit ASAP for water changes.
<I think you'll be glad to have it.>
So I'll be starting out with 0 copper or lead in the tank.
<Good stuff (as long as they stay that way).>
Thanks Josh.  
Joe
<Sure thing Joe. - Josh>

Copper Treatment In The Display Tank...Don't - 12/04/05
Hi,
<<Howdy>>
I have a 55 gallon fish only marine tank. Its been running for well over a year and a half.
<<Ok>>
But when I originally set it up the first fish I put in came down with ich.
<<No quarantine eh.>>
I treated the tank with copper
<<Uh-oh>>
and he is still alive today. I know my tank can never be used for a reef tank because of the copper being in the substrate/rock/glass caulking, even though the water reads the copper level is at zero, but if I clean my Remora protein skimmer can it be used later on in a reef tank or is it tainted now?
<<I think it will be fine.>>
If not what should I use to clean it to make it reef safe if anything?
<<Give it a soak in a weak vinegar solution (4 parts water to 1 part vinegar) overnight, rinse well, and you'll be ready to go.>>
Thanks, Jeff
<<Regards, EricR>>

More On Treating Your Display With Copper...DON'T! - 12/04/05
Gentlemen,
<<Hello...but I should mention...some pretty sharp "Ladies" here as well.>>
<<<Yes, like Marina, Jeni/Pufferpunk,
Thanks again for providing all enthusiasts with such a great resource.
<<We enjoy helping/being here.>>
I've researched extensively on this sight and found many topics regarding copper treatments (such as Coppersafe) and live rock and that you should never treat the main tank.
<<Indeed>>
Well, unfortunately I treated my FOWLR tank with Coppersafe and I was wondering if my Fiji rock will ever be "live" again.
<<The odds are not in your favor. Best to remove/replace.>>
My assumption is that all the life that was in this rock was extinguished by the Coppersafe.
<<Likely, yes...and unfortunately the rock will retain some amount of copper.>>
Can this "life" ever be restored?
<<Never to its original state.>>
If so, what do you suggest? It is a matter of re-curing the rock and then subjecting it to the good lighting, trace elements, calcium, iodine, etc.?
<<If you desire true "live rock", you must replace this treated/tainted rock.>> 
Also, if the main tank was treated with Coppersafe will the hardware ever allow me to keep invertebrates as some point?
<<Hardware should be fine...but I recommend you replace any substrate/rock.>>
In other words are the pump (Mag7), wet/dry and all affected to where they cannot be used for a reef setup or will some elbow grease and a good cleaning of all the components make them useable again?
<<A good cleaning in a weak vinegar solution with a freshwater rinse should do fine.>>
Thanks again for your help.
Jason
<<Regards, EricR>>

Copper sulfate in food  11/19/05
Hi,
<Hello>
I recently noticed that Dainichi has a pellet food for marine fish. The label says that it contains copper sulfate. Do you think this would be harmful to my cleaner shrimp?
<Mmm, nope. Not high concentration, and will become insolubilized quickly...>
They often eat some of the food that I feed to the fish. I was attracted to the product because it is formulated with Cyclop-eeze. I currently feed a variety of foods- frozen Mysis shrimp, krill, Cyclop-eeze, Ocean Nutrition Formula II and Prime Reef flake. I e-mailed Dainichi and they said that the amount of copper sulfate was too small to be harmful to shrimp or corals, but I wanted to get your opinion before I tried it.
Thanks!
Joy
<I agree with them... and have met one of the principals of the company... a mighty fine woman, good products. Bob Fenner>

How Long Does It Take For Carbon To Remove Coppersafe? No Background - 11/14/2005
Hi, I have moved most of my fish to a hospital tank. I had added CopperSafe about 1 week ago.
<Okay....>
Today I added a sponge filter with carbon, I would like to start the treatment over using hopefully Quick Cure - instead of CopperSafe.
<Uhh, why, what are you treating for, what kind of fish.... and other crucial bits of info....>
Does this sound wise?
<Couldn't tell, without some background.>
Also how long does it take the carbon to remove existing CopperSafe in the water?
<The carbon will lose its efficacy within hours and need to be replaced - you'll only know when the copper is "gone" by testing for it.>
THANK YOU for your time -Kim Kallas
<Wising you well, -Sabrina>

Live Rock and Copper HELP!  11/12/2005
Crew,
<Tirion>
Help! :) : I know you are all busy but I have an opportunity to buy (quickly) a bin of absolutely gorgeous rock, has been cleaned and dry for 2 years. Since I am laid off and need rock, this is a great opportunity. Wondered why it was so cheap, turns out the person used copper in his reef 2 years ago and you know the drill. Is there ANY way to utilize this rock in a mixed reef system?
<Yes, likely so... the copper is probably so fully insolubilized by exposure to the elements, carbonaceous rock that it will not re-enter solution>
It is gorgeous and almost perfect amount I need. To my knowledge, a great deal has likely gone insoluble or could be removed by placing in a tub with carbon filtration and checking the copper levels?
<Yes, a good extra precautionary measure>
I would check the levels, filter heavily a few days with over a pound of media like carbon or matrix in a 40 gallon tub at 200+gph with a HOB, stop filtration for a day and check settled levels, etc. and so on. Are there any other chemicals or media I should consider?  
<Not that I would use, suggest>
I can pick this up (like 50 or so lbs) for less than $30 and it is prime Fiji and Tonga. Your thoughts?  Thanks in advance, the stuff won't be there long.
<I would go ahead with your plans. Cheers, Bob Fenner>

Re: Live Rock and Copper HELP!  11/12/2005
Thanks!
<Welcome>
I am going to try and get it! If you like, I can let you know along the way any detection/issues so this might be a baseline for how to recycle copper infected live rock (clean it, store it, filter, test.. etc..)
<I'd appreciate this>
I plan on soaking, filtering and have decided I will use Carbon (probably minimal effect but cheap) and Poly (can see absorption and better capture)- not sure about Cupramine yet.
<?>
I have a means to have a chromatograph and mass spec detect whatever is in solution (ion, chel., at any concentration,
better than Salifert) periodically until I am satisfied. I can be patient sometimes - NOT :).
<Heeee!>
Thanks so much and you all take care. BTW, the SeaClone is still producing a medium dry foam and a cup of superior near black skimmate every 3 to 4 days. :).
<Real good. Bob Fenner> 

Re: Live Rock and Copper HELP!  11/12/2005
I meant CupriSorb, not Cupramine :).
<Ahh!>
I was not sure about the success in detecting inactive Copper from products such as Cupramine, however I am certain the mass spec can detect about anything.
<Yes. BobF> 

Re: Copper Treated Live Rock 01-04-06
I promised to give Bob an update on an issue - Previously copper (chelated) medicated live rock, dry for a number of years.
<<I made this a new article.>>
We both agreed that the copper might well be bound and the rock relatively safe to use if treated (CupriSorb, charcoal, changes, heavy flow, poly).  I did in fact get a quantity of the rock (beautiful and Cheap).
Placed in tub, circulated tank change water (tank water has no copper detectable) for 2 days to allow it to come to any solution.  Tested.  Level was 0.25 ppm.  Wow.
Full water change.  2 Days later, .024 ppm.  Full water change.
Hang on filter (200+gph) with carbon inserts and extra carbon in chambers.
Additional carbon bag in powerhead flow.  Temp maintained at 80F.  Cuprisorb used as well as poly.
Changed 20% water each 48 hours.
Tested on week later.  0.22ppm.  Same routine again, another week later 0.22ppm.
End result, IMHO.  It is unusable for even a FO tank.  At the rate of success, it might take years to get the copper to a level safe for even hermit crabs, who can withstand fairly high chelated copper levels.  I pulverized most of it (painful) and trashed it so no one would see it in the dump and say "great reef rock!".  I guess even bound copper can readily become soluble.  So, if anyone has similar scenario in future, I would advise them to just. say...no... - even to dry rock that had any previous copper use.
<<Thank you for the update. I have always wanted to do a study on this topic. Great info!!! Travis>>
Take care