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FAQs on Marine Velvet, Amyloodiniumiasis 1

Related Articles: Marine Velvet, Parasitic Disease, Quarantine, Quarantine of Marine Fishes,  Copper Use, Formalin, Formaldehyde Use,

Related FAQs: Marine Velvet 2, Marine Velvet 3, Marine Velvet 4, & FAQs on Amyloodinium/Velvet: Diagnosis/Symptomology, Prevention, Cures That Don't Work, Cures That Do Work, Products/Manufacturers... & Marine Parasitic Disease, Parasitic Marine Tanks, Parasitic Reef Tanks, Cryptocaryoniasis, Marine Ich, Biological Cleaners, Treating Parasitic Disease, Using Hyposalinity to Treat Parasitic Disease


Re: Velvet Anthony, Just a note to follow up and say thanks... <my great pleasure> I've run a Polyfilter along with the skimmer and U.V for the last 2 weeks, and have changed a couple of gallons a day, with 2 80%+ changes. <excellent!> I've also added a sump to the 30gal for the time being. I'm using a 30 gallon storage bin in an adjacent closet, to increase my system to 50+ gallons. Currently, it is unlit and has nothing in it except water. Since adding this and changing the water on Sunday, my ammonia, nitrites have all remained 0. I added a few snails last evening, as algae was starting to gain a foothold. They have been very active since. < a good sign... natural algal succession> I also saw the best indication I've had of health in my system in a long time. There are tiny little pods running around on the glass, .5-2mm or so. There aren't too many, but it's a start! <agreed!> Thanks again for your always spot-on advice, it is so great to back up my own ideas and plans with the advice of someone who I consider an expert... <just a convincing BS' er...heehee> an expert that doesn't want to sell me anything but a book that I already own. <indeed, my friend <G>> Thank you Anthony, Daron <thank you, my friend. Best regards, Anthony>

Oodinium <<Greetings... >> Hello, first off I wish to say great job on the site, and helping us clueless aquarists. Well my clown trigger and passer angelfish have a bad case of Oodinium (the disease related to ick) <<as a quick aside, it is only related in that ich and Oodinium are parasitic, but I can assure you, they have different life cycles>><Mmm, no, not very. RMF> I have been treating w/ copper and formalin, but its not working that great. If it continues to get worse should I freshwater dip them? Thanks!! <<Well, Oodinium is fairly virulent, meaning it can get out of hand and fatal pretty quickly. Additionally, no therapy will work in front of your eyes, it usually takes a week or so. Also, if you are treating these fish in your main display, the formalin and copper could be absorbed by the live rock and crushed coral rendering them useless as a treatment. Your best bet is to remove both of these fish into individual tanks - perhaps a 20-long for each fish with a simple air-driven sponge filter. With the fish separated from the display, you can treat with formalin and freshwater dips as needed. The separate tank gets you a couple of things - one, you alleviate the cycle of the fish infecting each other. Two, it becomes much easier to observe the fish and remove it for a dip or bath should the situation warrant it. Three, you really don't want to add harsh therapies like formalin and copper to your main display system as these will wreak havoc on the inhabitants of the biological filter. Better to do a water change a day on a 20g quarantine tank than lose your display. So... your course of action: yes to the freshwater dips - make sure you match pH and temperature. Then, follow the directions for the formalin and dose each quarantine tank individually. Keep up on the observations. Try to do a 25% water change at a minimum of every other day. You might also want to consider letting your display go fallow for a month to six weeks to allow the Oodinium to cycle to a less-virulent level. Here's the companion reading: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/parasiti.htm http://www.wetwebmedia.com/treatmen.htm Good luck. Cheers, J -- >>

Velvet/Regress... lights, stupidity Anthony, This is a little embarrassing, but.... <you really aren't a 5'3" strawberry blonde woman but actually a 300lb cross dressing steelworker in stilettos?> Everything was going great in the smaller aquarium. Well, until my girlfriend's cat decided to go fishing.  <now that's funny:) I love watching kitties do that in other peoples tanks <G> > She (the cat, not the girlfriend) pulled the pc lighting fixture down into the water, exploding it, which threw the circuit breaker and stopped all circulation/aeration. The PC ballast fell to the bottom of the aquarium in pieces. <is the cat OK? Heehee...> Of course, the water had a putrid, burnt electronics smell, and all the snails were dead. I don't know if it happened 5 minutes or 10 hours before I found it. The lionfish, clownfish, cat, and crabs survived. <seriously glad to hear it... and I suspect that the cat will need therapy now. Rest assured, she will not go near the aquarium again> I put the (extremely angry) fish and crabs in a 25 gallon tub w/ heat, skimming, and circulation while I tore down the aquarium, and put it back together with new substrate. I then put the LR in the same tub for about 2 days, until I couldn't smell anything odd.  <sounds like me doing laundry> I put the LR back into the tank, and introduced 3 new snails to see if they would survive. Guess what... they all died within a couple days. In hindsight, I could have saved some snail lives by ASSUMING that was going to happen.... <you know what happens when you assume...(Benny Hill fan?)> I've read that you can never get all the copper out of LR after you medicate, so I'm assuming that my LR might be bad at this point,  <contaminated but maybe salvageable... in fact likely.>  and I'll never be able to keep sensitive inverts on it. I think my next step should be to run a carbon filter for a couple of weeks, and then try again with a couple more snails. What do you think?  <yes... but add (and depend more so) on Poly Bio Marine "poly filters" to do this clean up work> Should I take up bowling or stamp collecting? <try them concurrently and avoid jokes about the size of one's balls> That makes me think that possibly a "disaster/stupidity recovery" FAQ might be in order on your wonderful site.  <congratulations, my friend... you just christened the top of that page <G>! Ha! Just joking... but point duly noted and agreed with> You can take all of my excerpts and put them into 1 tidy section. <heehee... in hindsight, sounds like you are childless or should be...heehee. non-cat proof= non-childproof. Do consider :) > Thanks, Clark "Sparky" Griswald <Griswald...hmmmm. Do you like Chevy Chase movies by chance? kindly, Anthony>

Re: Velvet <Griswald...hmmmm. Do you like Chevy Chase movies by chance? kindly, Anthony> Anthony, my life IS a Chevy Chase movie. If something idiotic doesn't happen to me on its own, I inadvertently, but very pro-actively start a chain of events.... <<Ha! well... we all make mistakes: some of us just do it funnier. Thank you :) >> To ease your mind, I am childless. Have you already called Child Protective Services on me?? <heehee... nope. I was pretty sure you weren't a parent yet <G>>> Thanks for the suggestion, I will stop by the LFS on my way home from work today to pick up a poly filter. <excellent... in time, a couple of PolyFilters and some water changes really should make the tank right sweet again. Don't be afraid of a big water change or two> Daron <best of luck, my friend. Anthony>

Velvet Good morning gentlemen, <OK.... I can try to be a gentleman today> As always, thank you for the indispensable resources you provide. Between the books and website, I'm almost capable of fish keeping. <and with medication... we here at WWM are almost capable of lucid conversations> A while back, Anthony helped me through an episode of stupidity,  <mine or yours?> where a local shop owner talked me into buying a Flowerpot as my first coral.  <you are far and away not the first... a regrettably common situation> When it died, it took out every invert in the tank, which included snails, crabs, many worms on my 50# LR, and countless 'pods.  <ouch...sorry> Since then, I have been trying to keep up with the algae blooms and die-.  <yes.... skim west...skim west my son> I believed everything to be in check, with 0 ammonia and nitrite, so I added hermit crabs. They survived for a week or so, so I added a dozen turbo snails to my 80 gallon aquarium. The snails faired poorly from the get-go. <hermit crabs are like roaches... I swear, I witnessed live hermit crabs in an abandoned closed pet store, discovered after four months with no electricity, food, etc and a salinity of nearly 1.5!!! Alive and well! Yowsa!> Thursday, my blue tang began showing white spots again, so I made the assumption that it was ick, without paying close attention. I reset the thermostat from 82 to 84.... (I've been keeping the temp at 82 because of this poor fish's endless battle) and began lowering the spg from 1.023 <OK> By Friday night, the tang was so completely covered with deep lesions, I needed to catch and euthanize (freeze) him.  <wow... an unusually fast and virulent infection. Not directly related to the Goniopora either. But rather to the degraded water quality< I pumped 60 gallons, and netted him. When I moved the LR around, it became apparent that there was a lot of anaerobic activity under the rock, and I assume much of the problem keeping the snails alive.  <ahhh...yes> This is where I should probably mention that I had subscribed to the deep coarse gravel/'pod school of thought,  <to which I also subscribe if it is sugar fine, not medium or course> bit me when they all died, and I couldn't keep up with the vacuuming. By this time, both my 5"+ maroon clown, and a 9+" lionfish were displaying white spots, and I began to realize I was dealing with velvet, probably hitchhiked on one of the snails or crabs. Since my survivors included only 7 hermit crabs, 7 turbo snails, and the aforementioned fishes, I made the decision to set up my 30 gallon hex to allow for proper tear-down and reconstruction of my 80.  <excellent my friend... I am in complete agreement. Hard work but a direct and sensible solution that will likely save lives> I'm running with no sump, only a skimmer, intense circulation, 50# LR, and a UV sterilizer.  <with water changes... I like it> I lightly covered the glass bottom with shell,  <I'm not thrilled about that... a detritus trap that does more hard then good. Forget the crabs... they are like roaches... they are tough and will survive the slippery slope temporarily. Heehee... I'm very glad for your empathy though <smile>> so the crabs could get a little traction; they had been sliding around the outside of the tank in the water currents. <life in the big city> Both fish have velvet, and have ragged caudal fins. Their condition seems to have stabilized since the move. I gave them each a freshwater dip between tanks.  <excellent...please continue. It may be all that you need. PS- the shell/substrate on the bottom of a QT tank encourages larval parasites to linger/bloom> Last night, Ammonia = 0.5ppm, and Nitrite = 1.0ppm, 85degrees, 1.020 spg. Ph 8.4 <water change> I ran out of salt, so my 80 is circulating, waiting for me to add salt this evening - so, I won't be able to use the tank for anything until tomorrow night. I also understand from Anthony that I should not treat my scaleless lion with copper. <correct> So, what should I do? I'm thinking that I need to separate LR and inverts from the fish,  <possibly> and perform daily FW dips,  <definitely... 5-7 in the next week alone might do the trick without you having to separate the inverts and stress the fish anymore> but am seeking your advice.  <continue as above for 3-5 days looking for stabilization or improvement... if so ride it. Else, separate and treat fish with Formalin> If I do need to medicate, I am inclined to use the 80 as the quarantine/med tank because the larger volume will be more stabile. <not necessary, a waste of meds and a greater evil for having to move the fish yet again. Leave stressed/weak fish be if possible> Thank you in advance for your always sound advice. <best regards, Anthony Calfo>

Oodinium Hi Robert, <Anthony Calfo in your service while Bob travels Australia on a tour featuring his latest work and passion: finger painting. He's been to five banks and the grand opening of a retirement home showing his portraits so far> I am having some trouble with velvet. <as in Elvis on Velvet, or are we talking about those cute dogs playing cards and smoking?> Got it in my main reef and captured all fish for treatment. <excellent to hear.. the right call!> Tank fallow of fish for one month so far. <very good> I screwed up HT by thinking I was helping adding some LR and Caulerpa for the tang and blenny (Algae blenny, purple tang, flame angel and clarkii clown.  <as in...rock from the main display?> Messed with my copper levels, wrong copper, mixing, you know the story. Got straight from your pages. <sorry and then glad to hear.. in that order> Saturday after reading all the FAQ's on the wet web site, I got my copper fixed, saved my fish from dying once. All fish were fine w/copper (cupric sulphate) until this AM when the Blenny was on his side. I pulled him from the HT and put him in an untreated tank with just a starfish. IF the blenny survives, do you have any suggestions for treatment for him if any? He seems very sensitive to copper. <yes... scaleless and small scaled fishes are quite sensitive. Furthermore... copper alone is not that effective on Oodinium. "Velvet" actually buries deep enough in the flesh (unlike Cryptocaryon "Ich" which is superficial) that copper can kill some fish before it gets deep enough to kill the parasites. Freshwater dips are needed in concert. Do read up in the archives on this protocol, my friend> The other fish are eating and acting normally with the exception of some flashing still, mainly near gills (velvet is BAD). Sometimes worse than others. I think this is the reaction to the copper and lowered salinity. <please do proper freshwater dips for all> Water is 83 F, SG is 1.020 down from 1.023 Friday (.01 per day drop in SG) No ammonium/ammonia, nitrite or nitrate. I'm testing cu AM and PM. Do you have any suggestions? Thank you, Craig Watson <you are very much on the right track, Craig. It's just a matter of time. Kindly, Anthony>

Wet-Dry filter & Oodinium!!!! Hello Anthony! <Cheers, again, Thanassis> "a very coarse foam block stuck onto the intake strainer (inside the tank) as a bulk prefilter often extends the life and cleanings of the media inside such external filters" Yes, this is exactly what EHEIM also recommends and is included in the package of the Wet-dry filter (I have it on already). They recommend to keep it on for 6 weeks and then take it out. I consider of cleaning it and put it back. <yes, agreed... I like to rinse and reuse it constantly> Well, whenever I realized that my fishes started to have Oodinium (especially the Blue Tang) I immediately treated it with OODINEX, an ESHA product, which is a light medication (can be used also to invertebrates) and the signs of the illness went away on the third day of the treatment. This time this is not the case. After a 4-day treatment with OODINEX the spots did not disappear, but on the contrary I realized today (it is the 4th day) that they have become more. I have a copper-based medication in my stock (the CUPRAZIN from Waterlife), <Actually... I do not feel that copper if effective at all on Amyloodinium (velvet). The parasite buries into the fish too deep to be killed by copper before the fish does! Formalin based products have been shown to be effective as well as consecutive daily dips (5-8).> afraid of a serous problem if I put CUPRAZIN inside it. but I afraid to use it, since OODINEX is still in my system. <PolyFilters will clear this promptly when that is the only concern> On the other hand I feel that I have no time to take the OODINEX out with my skimmer or carbon, because this would take at least two days, and it would be too late for my fishes.  <Overnight with the PolyFilters> I am thinking of taking the risk and put tomorrow morning CUPRAZIN, because otherwise I could lose my fishes.  <still... I don't think this will be very effective... better off to do aggressive freshwater dips> In the instructions of OODINEX it is only mentioned that it should not be used at the same time with any other treatment, but there is no indication for waiting two or more days in order to make another treatment. <indeed...most medications do not stay in solution for even a few days> Do you have any experience with the above medicines? What should I do? Perhaps by the time I receive your answer I may have already taken some action on this (now it is 02.32 a.m.), but still I would like to have your advice. Thanks and best regards, Thanassis <best regards, Anthony... PS. I recently sold one of my books through Amazon.com to an aquarist in Cyprus. Is that close to you?>

Oodinium - medication Dear Anthony, as per your advise I started freshwater dips for both fishes affected by Oodinium.  <excellent> I still keep the SeaCure treatment for the aquarium.  <fine...may still be mildly therapeutic> The Acanthurus lineatus looks much better after 3 dips of 3 minutes each.  <very good!> The Blue Tang has still the marks on him but he looks better.  <yes...many fish look rough after a dip(s) as the wounds from the parasites remain and some fish are secreting unsightly mucous. Have faith that it is all for the better> I made these dips following the instructions of the book "the conscientious..." but I did not have any Formalin or Methylene blue , so I just used freshwater (dechloraminated, PH and temperature adjusted) with some SeaCure in it. Still I believe that it helped! <yes... the freshwater is the main thing> Tonight I made a 20% water change and I checked the blue coral in a bucket with water: it is not the cause of the bad smell. <yes... we didn't think so. Likely the accumulated organics from the lack of skimmer/carbon and the fish not eating quite as well> I discussed with my retailer today and he is interested in having Formalin and Methylene blue in his shop. I showed him the photos of both medications in the book "The contentious..." and he was impressed by the book. He told me to order one for him too, and I will do it soon (I bought mine from Amazon.co.uk). Could you please tell me the exact description as well as the manufacturer of these two medications?  <they are very common medications that are probably in your country for other applications. Formalin is Formaldehyde gas in solution (you want 38-42% solution). It is used as a preservative in laboratories among other things. It must be handled carefully by humans (carcinogenic) like with most medications. It should also never be allowed to chill (below 50F temp it precipitates and turns in to toxic paraformaldehyde). Anyway, if you prefer to buy a safer product of either... look for the "Aquarium Products" brand of medications. If they are available, they have all. Aquarium Pharmaceuticals are also vendors of such medications... you can contact them at : http://www.aquariumpharm.com/contact.htm Else, Wardley's and Aquatronics and two other brands. Do write back if none such are available to you in Europe. > Which one do you recommend as the most effective?  <they really serve two different and useful purposes. Meth Blue is effective against bacteria and fungus... while formalin is aggressive on parasites> If you know any serious shop on Europe that can send - sell to us (me or my retailer) some quantity of the above medications please let me know their addresses or their website, in case they have one. Another question, which has to do with water chemistry: We know that it is good to keep the Carbonate Hardness at high levels (8 to 10 German count)  <even a bit higher is good... 11-12 dKH> in order to keep the PH stable at high values (8.2 to 8.5). What happens if the CH is too high?  <when CH gets very high, there is a risk of precipitating calcium... but the dKH has to be a lot higher (toward 20 or higher)> Is there any problem when we have a carbonate hardness of more than 10? (for example 13). <no trouble at all at with a CH of 13. 12 dKH is rather ideal for reef aquaria> Kalinichta, <good night, my friend> Thanassis <best regards, Anthony>

Strange smell! <that would be Bob, back from the Australian outback. Three weeks without bathing. His friends won't let him near them, but he could sneak up to within 10 feet of a wallaby from upwind for his pains> Hello Anthony! <cheers Thanassis> Here I am again this time with problems... As I had told you my fishes had Oodinium. Since the product Formalin is not used at all in my city (it does not exist in the stores) I had to treat my aquarium with SeaCure by Aquarium Systems, you probably know it very well.  <yes... but it is often not effective on Oodinium (Velvet disease) because this parasite buries so deep in the fishes' flesh. Really a better medication for Cryptocaryon (Ich/white spot)> This treatment needs to take place 14 days and the copper level should be stable at 0,3 ppm during the treatment. So I bought the copper test kit from the same company. So far, so good. After 5 days the white spots seem to have disappeared and suddenly today in the morning I realize that my Blue Tang has a white spot on his eye. It is the first time that I have a problem with the eyes of my fishes , so I do not know where it comes from and what it is. Can it be White Spot disease or is it something else?  <still could be white spot><<Mmm, or a burn from chemical exposure. RMF>> The medicine is still in the aquarium ... <yes... it is very important to maintain that level. Some say for Oodinium you must go 21 days> On the other hand I noticed this morning a bed smell coming from my aquarium, which I can really not describe. I made the following thinking about the reason for this smell: - I put in my aquarium three new blue hard (dead) corals just the day before , which I bought from my retailer. I washed them in tap water before I put them in the tank. I do not really know if this smell could come from the corals or this is only a co-incidence. <hmmm... dead/ <yes...could be. Do keep up with the partial water changes for this and many reasons> bleached coral should not impart this> - I have not worked my skimmer since ten days because of the treatments, so perhaps there are too many organics in my tank causing this smell. This afternoon I started my skimmer and it takes out a lot of white foam which is hard and does not deliquesce, something that does not happen when it is running constantly. - My gravel (crashed coral + aragonite sand) is perhaps more than 1 inch deep in some areas. Perhaps there are anaerobic bacteria there causing this smell. This evening I took out some gravel, so that the depth is not more than 1/2 inch. <very wise> Well, this is all I could think of, with my little knowledge, which is getting bigger thanks to your terrific site and book (the conscientious aquarist). <agreed... Bob has created a wonderful site and a great book (CMA). We are all glad to help out> Your input on the above problems would be much appreciated.  Thanks again, Thanassis <always welcome my friend. Anthony>

Re: Strange smell! - Oodinium still there! Well, just to continue the story: Today my Blue Tang and Clown tang are again full of Oodinium! I suspect that turning on the skimmer absorbed big part of the copper and Oodinium is back again.  <not related my friend... again, Oodinium typically is not killed easily with copper. The rebound in the fish could just as easily have been natural. Oodinium is so deep in the flesh (unlike Cryptocaryon on the very surface which is killed easily by copper). You really need freshwater dips and/or a different medication to kill Oodinium effectively. Copper alone is not effective enough for me> I now turned the skimmer off and added some SeaCure to continue with the treatment. Hope not to lose any fish... The bad smell is still there (a little close to the smell of petrol). Did I understand well your answer? Do you mean that the blue corals can be the reason for the smell because they are colored blue ? <not at all. I do not believe that the blue corals have anything to do with the smell. If you want to be sure though, take one out and put it into a bucket of water and see if the smell continues in the bucket... that would suggest that the coral might be contaminated or that it is not fully cured or bleached clean of tissue and organic matter> Something else: Since I am treating with copper I should have no skimmer on and no carbon in my filter.  <definitely no carbon... and yes, it is usually best to leave the skimmer off as well> If I do it for 15 or 20 days would not it be a cause of bed water conditions?  <yes... that is the reason for the frequent (weekly and sometimes daily) small water changes in a hospital tank> Of coarse I feed less than normal and I have the wet-dry filter in operation since 10 days now - do not know if it has built up any bacteria colonies yet. <very good temporarily> Tomorrow I plan a 20% water change. Hope to get my aquarium back to "normal life" soon! Regards, Thanassis <good work, my friend. Anthony>

Help - Amyloodinium ocellatum Help Bob! <Anthony Calfo in your service> I finally figured out what has killed many of my fish Amyloodinium ocellatum!! That evil stuff has taken out - one 4" Harlequin Tusk, one baby Clown Trigger, one 3" Huma Trigger, One 3"Niger Trigger, One 4" Queen Angel and the one who brought it to my tank in the first place a Juv. Koran Angel. No, all of these fish were not in the tank at the same time. <my friend, you have just learned a very expensive lesson in why so many experienced aquarists rant and rave about how you must have a quarantine tank and use it. It would have cost one quarter of the money you lost in fish not to mentioned saved their lives likely (or at worst, you would have lost the carrier but spared the main system). Please research the archives on the equipment and protocol for a QT tank> Just recently I thought all was well, all my tests came out at the correct safe levels (Ph, Salt, Nitrate, Nitrite, temp, etc.) My Snowflake eel and Damsel did not show signs of being sick but I think they could live in Nuclear Waste water if they had to now.  <agreed! especially about the eel!> So thinking it was safe I decided to buy myself a new fish to celebrate - enter Disco, my 6" Stars & Strips true puffer. He was very active for about 3 days and then the tiny velvet spots came, but this time I was determined to save this one. I moved all my hermit crabs to another tank and started copper treatments to the main tank to try and kill the parasite and cure Disco.  <wow...what an awful idea, read on...> It's been about a week and he still has spots but is eating well, has his color back, and a lot more active. I have many questions. <all medications must be dosed in a bare bottomed tank (like a QT tank) Medications such as copper are rendered less effective or ineffective by the buffering action of calcareous media (gravel, sand, rock, coral skeletons, etc). Furthermore, the media is now tainted for future invertebrates...ruined essentially... anemones, starfish, shrimp, etc. can overdose on the absorbed copper in the substrate even when the water tests copper free.> What is the best way to rid the parasites from my main tank.  <you can leave it fishless for 4 weeks with a slightly lower salinity (1.017). However, what's left of your biological filter after the copper treatment will wane after a fishless month. Do stock very slowly afterwards. You may run fish in a QT tank separately at the same time to be prepared for restocking> I am prepared to break it down completely.  <not necessary... no tank could ever be made sterile...nor any fish. All do carry some small amount of pathogens... stress induces them to flare. Just focus on good water quality and reduced stress> I also have live rock - would the parasite leave 'eggs' in the rock as well? And how do I go about cleaning the rock? <Ughhhhh... a lot of live rock stained and killed with copper. A very expensive lesson. The LR is not to be wasted totally...it can become more biologically active again... but having chemically adsorbed copper, many great things will never grow in it again.> The tank infested is a 55 FOWLR - I have an unused 90 gallon - A currently running 29gal with a LR, crushed coral and the hermit crabs. I want to know using these tanks what would be the best route. My first idea is to break down the 55 completely and use the 90 as a hospital for the puffer.  <hospital tanks are ideally smaller and more manageable with regard for dosing medication and doing water changes. If you are willing to spend the extra to accomplish that in a 90 gall. so be it. Else, invest in a smaller QT tank (20L to 30 gall would be nice for these larger fish species)> Once well move him to the 29 with the eel and crabs temporarily. drain the 90 move it - fill 90 back up with LR and substrate and get it cycled. then move everything in to the 90. Then start up the 55 again. <too complicated, my friend> My LFS said copper stays in the silicone around the tank even after you remove it from the water. Is this true?  <hehe... that is about the only thing copper doesn't stay in... your rock and gravel are ruined for ever keeping inverts again most likely. Stick with fish only and you won't have to throw it away> Does it affect the fish that much?  <PolyFilters will mop up the copper in the water when you are done... just stick with fish> Would that make using the 90 out of the question as the hosp? <a huge hospital tank <smile>> I apologize for such a long email, but I want to make the right decisions. I am now convinced as to the value of prevention. I will always quarantine all new specimens! <yes... I just hate to see folks learn the hard way! Best regards now that you are on the right track. Kindly, Anthony> Thanks for all your help - The Marine world is a better place because of you! God Bless

Will micro waving or boiling kill the cyst stage of Amyloodinium? Dear Mr. Fenner, One of my tanks has suffered 2 wipeouts from Amyloodinium. After the first crash the tank was left fallow for about 6 weeks. After the second crash a friend, with many years in the hobby, suggested treating the tank with Acriflavine, Greenex, hypo salinity, and elevated temps for a month, or so. I did just that and then left it fallow with temps in the 90's and a specific gravity of 1.010 for another 2 to 3 months. I recently introduced a Bluespot Jawfish. He was the first fish reintroduced into the tank. I know now that was not my best option. To add insult to injury I did not quarantine him. So I killed a beautiful rare fish and I will never know whether all my effort eradicated the parasite or not. <Or re-introduced it> Who knows maybe he brought it in with him. The fish was active, eating and doing well from day one. He got what appeared to be Amyloodinium after about 3 weeks in the tank. I was unable to save the poor little guy. I am wondering if there is anything I can do to salvage this tank and make it safe to add fish to? <All sorts of steps, fronts can be utilized to "improve" ones chances. Please read: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisease.htm to help you develop a less "didactic" sense of what states of disease/health actually entail> I have had several suggestions from treatment with copper and sterilization with bleach, to ripping it down and starting over. I have read everything I can find on Amyloodinium. Apparently the dormant cysts are not susceptible to treatment, <Not much> so then copper and bleach (I assume) would not be effective. I do not want to treat the tank with copper rendering it unfit for inverts. I am thinking my only option is to rip the tank down and start all over, throwing away probably 500 dollars worth of rock and sand. <Not the only, or best, better of options... there is just slightly better chances here of not having further problems... compared with more waiting, hypo salinity, elevated temperature... THEN optimizing your likelihood of avoiding outright infestations by selecting better specimens of appropriate species, utilizing dip/baths and quarantine procedures, augmenting feeding, biological cleaners... Please read the above "three sets of factors" article and the many FAQs, Links beyond> Is there anything that will kill the dormant stage of this virulent pest? <Not definitively... w/o generally killing most all other life> Do you know what temperatures would be necessary to kill the cyst stage of Amyloodinium? Micro waving or boiling the contents of the tank in a water and bleach solution was recently suggested to me. Could the cyst stage of this organism possibly survive that? <I would not go these routes...> Where, besides the substrate and water do the dinospores and the cyst stage of this nasty organism reside?  <Can be on any surface, really... biological and not> I assume they adhere to the LR, surfaces of the acrylic tank and equipment, as well as the bio media (bio balls and bio bale of the CPR BakPak)? If I were to start from scratch...........do I throw away all the sand, LR, and bio media never using any of them again or would it be safe to use them after a thorough rinsing, some treatment, perhaps soaking in bleach, micro waving or boiling in a bleach and water solution, rinsing again, dechlorinating and then drying in the sun for some period of time? <Again, this extreme approach is not worthwhile. I appreciate your situation... have had several very frustrating entrenched parasitic problems in stores, collecting stations around the world... that for expedience sake "Nuking" with bleach, formalin, other bio-cides was the avenue of choice... for time, sureties sake. If it were my system, situation, I would use the monies you might otherwise spend on new LR, substrate... and go on a small vacation instead, while the system is going fallow... starving out, greatly weakening the problem here...> I have 6 pieces of coral in the tank attached to small pieces of rock.......do I have to destroy those as well? <No my friend> What do you think? If you are unsure is there anyone you could possibly refer me to? Any information would be greatly appreciated. <Look for books by Edward Noga on fish disease> Thank You so much for your time, it is greatly appreciated. Leslie <How to put this? All life has "diseases" of different sorts, that can/will express themselves given inopportune conditions, events... The ways to avoid "disease" are many, but taken one at a time as general inputs (livestock selection, nutrition, social dynamics...) can/do overall weigh the equation/sliding scale of health/disease in the keepers domain. Think about this deeply... a very important lesson about the nature of the truth, life. Bob Fenner>

Amyloodinium in my display tank I recently finished conditioning my first saltwater aquarium and have added a Porcupine Puffer, a Yellow and a Blue Tang. Within the last couple days both the Tangs have shown what I believe to be Amyloodinium. I added a full dose of Cupramine today and wanted your professional opinion before continuing on, should I: a) Continue with the treatment of Cupramine for the 3+ weeks and see where I am. b) Fresh water dip all fish and move them to a quarantine (new water, filter, Cupramine, and methylene blue) tank and restart my whole display system from scratch. Choice B does not sound like fun to me, but I know that Amyloodinium can live in the substrate and I would rather rid my tank of them now than leave the possibility of further infestation if Cupramine in the display tank won't rid the problem. <Of the two choices the first is best... neither are what I would do however. Please see our principal site, WetWebMedia.com re Marine Parasitic Disease, and the many sections, FAQs files therein...> If I need to sanitize the display tank what is the best course of action? I have a 72gal reef ready with a bio-ball sump, and a Berlin protein skimmer. How do I sanitize the bio balls, substrate (replace it? Or bleach it?). I appreciate your help with my dilemma. <These are all talked over as well as many questions, need to know factual material that is not live to your conscious as yet... Take your time here and carefully consider what is written on WWM... we'll chat soon. Bob Fenner> Thank you, Mark Hill

Marine velvet woes... Hello Mr. Fenner, <Hello> Great site! I've been reading through it ever since I decided to try my hand at fish keeping. I would say that the most helpful and critical piece of advice I've gained is that any changes made to these systems has to be gradual. Whether adding fish, or changing environmental conditions. I believe that's been the key to my tank's initial success. <A good strategy, underlying principle> Recently, however, a bad case of Amyloodinium has quickly de-stocked my tank to: 0 fish per gallon. What remains is an anemone crab and live rock. I would like to eliminate the parasitic infestation that remains in-tank while keeping the crab and rock alive. What would you suggest? <Allowing the tank to go fallow for a few months...> Is the crab susceptible to the same disease that killed the fish? <No> If not, could it act as some sort of carrier/vessel for the Oodinium, that when acclimated into a clean tank it could possibly inadvertently help speed the death of even more fish?  <In a manner of speaking yes... the presence of metabolic activity does extend the life/viability of resting stages, non-infective algae...> I wonder similarly about the liverock since this will complicate moving either of the two. <A similar effect, yes> Any help would be great. Thanks! <The various approaches, a weighting of their likely value/success is posted on various places in the FAQs on Marine Diseases on WetWebMedia. Bob Fenner>

Marine Velvet resilience Bob, about 2.5 months ago (maybe a little longer), a had a terrible outbreak of velvet and it totally destroyed my three year old tank. I broke down that tank and stored the expensive components in a closet and threw away things like nets, etc. Well. . . in the mean time I bought a new tank and I am adding the live rock and aragonite tomorrow. Now I'm sort of freaking out. Tonight when I went to wash the aragonite, I forgot that the bucket I used to drain the velvet water is the same bucket that I used to wash and store my new aragonite for the new aquarium. Bob. . .how long can that stuff last in a very dry climate? <Not much, well for more than a month> The bucket has also had some copper in it. Is the copper still hanging around? <Doubtful. Will be complexed by the new materials in the new tank. You can test for, but there will be little to no free cupric ion> Will it "infect" my aragonite? I also would like to continue using the same quarantine tank and power filter which has been stored dry. Do I really need to sterilize?  <Hmm, would have been better to "bleach, wash" all... but likely fine.> I know it probably would have been best to sterilize the bucket but it is hard for me to believe this protozoa can live for two or three months out of water. If you think I need to throw everything out I will. I can't deal with starting a tank by introducing problems. Thanks, Dave <No need in my estimation to do anything more or different than you already are. Velvet and ich are parasitic problems that can be oh so/too easily introduced with new live materials... best to do what you can (dips/baths, quarantine) to prevent and set-up, maintain an optimum environment to preclude hyper-infestations. Please read through this "more balanced" approach/understanding posted on our site: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/tanktroubleshting.htm Be chatting. Bob Fenner>

Marine Velvet (I think) Bob, I have a bunch of questions for you. We bought an Achilles tang about 5 weeks ago and did not quarantine him.  <Uh oh> My brown tang (normally very peaceful) did not like him and bit and cut him so bad he died. A week later both my brown tang and my hippo regal) tang had ich. We began using a reef safe product called kick ich. <Did it work?> Then my hippo got pop eye and some black spots all over. They began to look better after about a week, but then overnight again all symptoms returned. <Typical> I had two damsels and two black perculas (all black) who showed no signs. Then my brown tang started looking blotchy with big white and smaller gold blotches on her body. Her skin was more pale then brown. My other four fish finally got what we thought was ich after about 4 weeks. I called an aquarium maintenance man to set me up a hospital tank. He did but used water from my main tank that had kick ich in it and added copper, lowered salinity to 1.015 and dropped temp from 85 to 75(which I thought all of the things he did seemed not right given what I know about fish) <Should keep temperature elevated...> Anyway, the brown tang died the next morning (we had all fish for at least 10 months, and some for over a year). We did a big water change in hosp. and about 8 hrs later noticed that my clowns were trying to get out and my blue tang was almost white from loss of color, one of my damsels was floating and the other was hidden. We removed from hosp. and put back in main. All color came back and they appeared better. We lost the floating damsel. We did a 20 gallon water change on main tank(50 gall.) and added carbon and PolyFilter to pull kick ich out as we were having no good results. We began using Melafix the next morning and feeding them antibacterial and antiparasitic flakes. The damsel and my female clown appeared spotty with white dots didn't look like ich) and began "shedding skin as my brown tang did right before she died) we dipped them, but lost them later that day. This was four days ago. We are still using Melafix and feeding medicated flakes with vita-chem and Zoecon. My regal looks good except he has a little pop eye that looks 90% better than the previous day, he itches a bit on rock and has some bigger and not uniform white spots on his fins almost all gone as well) we have cleaner shrimp cleaning him. My male clown is now all speckled with white he has been every morning for past few days, and looks better as day progresses. He eats a lot at night, but nothing during morning feeding. He is swimming around fast. I am afraid of losing him, but more afraid of losing my regal tang. Is this highly contagious? <Yes!> We are shied away from a hosp tank as it did us no good and we lost 3 fish that were really not that bad off brown tang excluded) We just added a big UV Sterilizer last night hoping this will help. I am just afraid my tang is going to get whatever the clown has. Can what we are doing cure this and how likely is it that my tang will get this as well. <Yes, and likely> We want to save both if we can and we are really unsure of what happened and how we can keep it from happening again. <You introduced an infested organism, used a bunk chemical treatment, weakened your other livestock... a not-so comedic order of troubles> All our water I s good quality, test and water changes done once a week, temp. was at 85, now dropped to 81-82(slowly). I am sad and don't want to bury any more of my fish, please help. If there is any more info you need please let me know. Your assistance would be GREATLY appreciated. Thank You in advance, A concerned fish Mommy <Sorry this note/message is getting back to you so late (have been out of town on a ship...). Please do read over the following sections of our site: http://wetwebmedia.com/tanktroubleshting.htm http://wetwebmedia.com/parasiti.htm and the FAQs beyond... and on WWM re quarantine...  Bob Fenner>

Marine velvet? Bob, Sorry to keep pestering you, but a couple of months ago I wrote to you about a problem I was having with a new reef tank: 75 gal with 100# of Fiji LR. I had lost all of my fish: mandarin goby, 2 Firefish gobies, Kole eye tank, bicolor blenny. At first I thought it was due to gas bubble disease, but have ruled this out. I now think it was caused by Amyloodinium - velvet. The symptoms were: light white powdery dusting (not the 'salt grain' ich - I've seen that), with occasional 'bursts and dashing' and rapid breathing by the afflicted fish. Then, at the end, a sudden loss of body mass (in a day) with an almost fuzzy white dust covering of the fish and lethargic behavior (sit at bottom panting). The disease just 'appeared' two mo.s after initial tank set up (all fish were fresh water dipped with methyl blue for 10 min, but alas, no quarantine prior to being added to the main tank). <Does sound like Velvet... good description> Anyway, all my SPS, leather, LPS corals are doing fine, and so are my 2 bubble anemones. And I have one fish - an Australian clown - that was never affected. Is it possible that this fish was immune, or have I misdiagnosed my problem?  <It is possible the clown was unaffected. Again, I do agree with your diagnosis> Could the anemone have given it immunity by eating the velvet before it could attach/damage the clown's gills/scales? <Hmm, yes... in a manner of speaking.> The clown is completely invisible 90% of the time due to the anemone's tentacles - it truly buries itself, but does come out to feed and peek out occasionally. Anyway, my tank has been fish-free for 2 mo.s (except for the unaffected clown). Would it be wise to start adding fish (after FW dip with Methyl blue, and 2 wk quarantine) if I also put a 25 watt CSL U2 UV sterilizer on the main tank (for 2 wks prior to adding the new fish)? <After this period of time, you will have gotten about as much benefit as you're going to get from not having other fish/hosts present... I would definitely quarantine or at least dip/bathe new fish livestock... and do assure me you have biological cleaners in place already.> I'm not sure if the UV is enough to give the fish a chance, or if the 2 months of being fish-free (except for my 'unharmed' clown) would have allowed the velvet to die out. <Both definitely "help"> Should I remove the clown from the main tank, and let the tank stay fish-free and on a UV for a couple of months before trying to add new fish? <This would help as well...>  Any other recommendations? <The dips and cleaners: http://wetwebmedia.com/clnrfaqs.htm> Thanks! <Thank you for the follow-up... Be chatting my friend. Bob Fenner>

Velvet pics hello again bob, I have a 5inch imperator and I'm suspecting that it has velvet. its eyes are beginning to cloud a bit but now much, skin has white smudges( not visible sideways, like painted on) on the other side... its not scratching, is eating very well. it seems that its the only fish affected in the aquarium. my emperor killed my bicolor and keyhole. I never really see some serious aggression when I'm viewing the tank but I think he's the suspect. what I really want to make sure is 1 how to diagnose velvet <See our site re Marine Diseases (www.WetWebMedia.com)> 2 do you have pics? <yes, there> 3 is it fatal? <Can be, easily> 4 treatment 1,2,3 I seem to have not found these on your website... can you fill me in on these? thanks bob <Time to go back... perhaps use the "Google Search" tool there. Bob Fenner>

Re: Possible Oodinium Hello again Robert, <Howdy> My fish have been having problems again lately. Several of them have been scratching (a Toby, the tang, and one of the gobies) quite a bit today. There are breathing a little bit heavy, and they look annoyed by something (jerking their bodies, more irritated with each other). The temperature is still running a little bit high, but it hasn't gone above 84 (that may still be too high though). I have powerheads circulating the water, and an airstone. I did a 15 gallon water change (80 gallon tank) making sure that the temperature and salinity matched. The water quality is fine (although the nitrates have been around 20 lately). My question: If I do have a parasitic infection, how do I know and what can I do to treat / stop it (without destroying the live rock / fish's health etc)? <Best is to learn to do a simple skin/slime scrape test... with a microscope, a glass slide... a less than willing fish... No staining necessary... but maybe helpful. Are you using cleaner organisms? Bob Fenner> Thank you again for all of your help in the past! Jim Moss

Possible Oodinium Hello again Robert, Thank you for your last e-mail concerning lighting. I decided to get the 130 watt fixture for my 80 gallon tank and add it to the 70 watts I already have. The lights should be here on Tuesday! Once I get it I am going to add some macro algae from my smaller tank. <Sounds like a plan> Now I have another concern / problem. When I first set up my 80 gallon tank, I had a bad case of Oodinium which killed most of my fish. I have not had any problems with it for several months now (since March). Well, yesterday I noticed some of the fish breathing kind of heavy, and one of my Sharpnose puffers scratched a few times. I have not seen him scratch since, and he is not breathing heavily, but the other Sharpnose puffer does seem to be breathing heavy, and my gobies look like they are breathing a little bit heavier than usual as well. Is there something else other than Oodinium that would cause them to breath heavy? What should I do? <A few things... maybe "biological" as in infectious, parasitic... but maybe just dissolved gas related... do increase water movement if you can... perhaps add an airstone... execute a water change, removing some water from the surface (the little aerosol, oils from cooking, what have you inside homes/offices can play the devil here...> The water parameters are great (ammo 0, nitrites 0, pH 8.1, nitrates about 15, I don't have a phosphate or calcium test kit). The temperature in the tank has been pretty high lately (84 or 85).  <Ah hah! A likely clue... elevated temperatures reduce gas solubility, and increase metabolic rates...> The tankmates are two Sharpnose puffers, 3 gobies (1 scissor tail, and 2 of the one that have the yellow heads and blue cheeks and sift sand), 2 blue damsels, a maroon clown, a yellow tang, a mono, a chocolate chip star fish, and one huge turbo snail (that only comes out at night). There is 60 lbs of live rock in the tank. <Look to reducing temperature in the meanwhile... turn lights off, float a bag of ice... set up a fan to blow across the tank surface (careful here those gobies can/will jump out)... and add an airstone, pump...> Thanks again for all of your help! Jim Moss <You're welcome my friend. Bob Fenner>

Re: Possible Oodinium Robert, Thanks for the advice on the heavy breathing. I followed your suggestions and it took care of the problem. <Very good news. Congratulations on your success. Bob Fenner> Thanks, Jim

Marine Velvet-Second Outbreak Well, it looks like I am into my second outbreak of Marine Velvet in the last four months. (six fish lost the first time) I suspect I got it from not quarantining fish at the start. My fault.  <All too common... real trouble in our interest... and a principal reason why folks leave the hobby> I have treated the whole tank with copper for a period of about four weeks and all fish seem to be cured and seemed to stay that way for over two weeks. As I dropped copper levels below .01 it appears to be reappearing. <Is the copper product you use at a "physiological dose" during this entire two week period? I don't think so> (it has taken another 3 weeks or so to drop copper levels even with carbon and massive water changes because it is a fairly large tank).  <Just use activated carbon, and/or Polyfilter and it will disappear quickly...> Bummer At this point should I retreat with copper or drain and freshwater rinse the whole tank or just let it go fallow for a month or two with salt water?  <I would start again... treating the fishes in a separate system...> Naturally I have just rebuilt stock to 10 fish or so.  <What? Hopefully you are joking....> All other water parameters are dead on. I have read that some Marine Velvet is extremely resistant to treatment. I can treat with copper again but I am not sure that will effect a cure? <Please read over the entire "Maintenance" sub index on the www.WetWebMedia.com site, including all disease and treatment and FAQ sections. Bob Fenner>

Oodinium Bob,  I know your a very busy man <Everyone has exactly the same amount of time...> but I hope you would please lend an ear to my plight with Oodinium. I have the following:  Setup  Two bare bottom 29 gallon tanks stacked with common wet dry.  8 Watt UV on bottom tank.  150 Watt heater - My fish room is over insulated and runs hot.  1 Air stone in each tank.  Occupants  Top tank: Two 2" Amphiprion Sebae clowns. These are the real Sebae not A. clarkii  <Ahh, a rarity, as you know> Bottom Tank: One 3" Amphiprion chrysopterus. I started with the large female and 4 small males but lost all the males to what I perceived to be Oodinium.  <I'd bet the female didn't help...> Steps  Dropped SG to 1.010 over two days.  <This is very sudden> Eliminated overhead lighting.  Dropped temperature to 75 degrees Fahrenheit.  <Hmmm, not raised? Your thesis?> Treated with formalin for 5 days.  <Oh, oh...> Current Scenario  All fish are feeding.  The chrysopterus can be seen flashing from time to time. Her breathing is not too bad but not what I would consider optimal. After the SG drop external signs of the parasite disappeared.  The largest Sebae is in dire straits! This is the fish I am most concerned about.  Her breathing is labored, mouth open, and her pectoral fins are clamped.  She swims in a fashion I call the "waggle of death". I did notice a white patch on one of her gills. It seems to streak down the anterior portion of the gill plate. She is feeding very well which is cause for some hope.  <This is likely directly due to the formalin treatment... why formalin?> I'm assuming I have Oodinium as the aforementioned chrysopterus showed heavy external signs of it at passing. Despite the mentioned treatments the symptoms on the remaining fish persist. I've cured other clowns of this ailment just by dropping the SG to 1.010 for 3 months. That has not worked in this case so I'm curios about my methods or additional possibilities.  Thank you in advance for your guidance.  <Thank you for writing. Please take the time to read over (there's a bunch) of the pieces on Clownfishes, Marine Parasitic Disease, Copper Use... and related FAQs files posted on the site: www.WetWebMedia.com. In the meanwhile, do increase aeration to both these systems and go very slow on feeding these animals... they are burned by the formalin treatment... and food processing is difficult for them. Bob Fenner>

Marine velvet Hi Bob, Great web site, it's very informative and ideal for a newbie to keeping a reef aquarium.  <Ahh, great to hear, thank you.> My tank has been up and running for 8 weeks and all water parameters are spot on. I have been gradually introducing some live rock, no fish so far but I have added some turbo snails, bumble bee snails and a blue legged hermit. Recently I have begun to notice some white spots on the aquarium glass, they seem to be oval shaped with a small tails, they are less than 1mm in size. I'm just a little concerned that these are velvet parasites as they seem to fit the description on your website although I have no fish in the tank. What do you think? Could they be velvet parasites and will they die off without a fish for a host or I'm I worrying about something harmless. <Nothing to worry about... very likely a transient form of worms, possibly crustaceans or mollusks... will pass with the aging, development of your system... not a problem> Any advice much appreciated Regards, Chris Young <Be chatting my friend. Bob Fenner>

Velvet disease problem hi bob, can I ask you a few question? <You've just asked one... certainly you may.> 1, what happen if the nitrite goes up (during treatment of copper) I have no other tank. <You might lose your livestock if it's too much, too soon... What you might most likely do is execute a very large water change with pre-made water, introduce some nitrifying bacteria (like on a conditioned sponge filter, other "old media"...), increase aeration> 2, when and how to raise the sg and temp now currently at sg 1.017 and 28 - 30 deg? <When your treatment period is all over (two weeks or so)... and by doing water changes with more dense water... and slowly lowering the thermostat setting on your heater(s)> 3, will I observe any difference from my fishes with treatment of copper and sg 1.017at 83f? <Hmm, they will cure faster... and likely breathe much more rapidly...> 4, is 0,3 to 0.5 ppm copper acceptable for tank and is ppm and mg the same. <Better check the manufacturer's recommendation... is this a chelated copper product AND a chelated copper test kit? )0.5ppm for free copper is high... Parts per million and milligrams per liter are equivalencies> 5, after treatment I intend to change 30% of water and start using ozone and u/v together to improve the water quality what is your recommendation? <For what? This should be fine... but do read over the many pieces on the www.wetwebmedia.com site that deal with set-up and maintenance... Live rock, a lighted sump/refugium, growing macro-algae... many ways to improve water...> 6, I notice when I added copper or lower the sg the fish rubs against object and flicker why? <Irritating to them. Good observation.> 7, their body look dry now and will they produce back protection slime ? <Of a certainty, yes> 8, I can not afford to lose them anymore. <Then don't> 9, thank you. <You're certainly welcome. Bob Fenner>

Velvet disease problem hi bob, will copper destroy nitrifying bacterial? <Yes, it can. One of the reasons for monitoring aspects of nitrogen cycling while using this, or any other treatment> I notice that after adding copper to the tank, the skin of my angel fish looks dry like lose of slime. <Wow, good observation... Copper compounds can do this, and increase mucus production> how long will the Oodinium be disappear with copper treatment and raise of temp and sg? <For most cases a week to two... best to wait out the entire two weeks to be sure> will the copper treatment degrade the water quality? thanks bob. <Yes, definitely, but this is part of "the cost" of treating the system... and you're welcome. Bob Fenner>

Velvet disease problem hi BOB, sorry for asking you so much questions again. I am really sad. from live rock tank to artificial rock and this 3 month daily I am cracking my head on how to have my fishes recover from disease. so I hope you understand.  <I do> worst still I introduced sera internal parasite treatment to my tank. ( sera Baktapur direct ) w/o really go through the instruction and my no2 rise to the highest. with no choice I transfer my fishes to two fiber glass and did 70% water change daily. I am very tired and even felt sick (I would lose my immune first than them). now the no2 decrease to >0.1 mg and I introduced them back to the tank. and they now contracted to Oodinium pillularis hope it is correct spelling. <Close enough> first I used ozone no help, 2nd I used INTERPET velvet and slime away and still no help. now my l! ! Last try is sera Oodinopur A contain 0.070g of copper chloride and 3.400g of copper sulfate. <This should work> taking risk again and hope that I won't harm the filtration bacterial. my ozone, U.V and skimmer are off. how long will it take to cure this disease and I heed your advice and leave the lymph alone. pls help me. my tank consist of 1. queen angel 6" 2. passer angel 6" 3. French angel 4" 4. Asfur angel 4" 5. Maculosus angel 5" 6. blue lip stick angel 4" 7. emperor angel 3.5 " 8.purple tang 4" 9. Sohal tang 4" 10. Spanish hog 5" 11. rainbow wrasses 7" 12. Heniochus acuminatus 4" all of them had Oodinium. thanks BOB, your advice will immediately help to solve my headache and I will follow accordingly. <Do follow the directions on the Oodinopur packaging, for the entire two week treatment, and lower your specific gravity to about 1.017, and elevate the system's temperature to approximately 82F... do these last two over a period of the next few days (not all at once), and do what else you can to assure good aeration, circulation. The treatment puts an added stress, increases mucus production, and the elevated temperature decreases gas solubility while increasing metabolism... hence the need for more aeration. After the two week treatment (with testing every day for copper levels), do place two kinds of cleaners in your system. A Lysmata shrimp species and perhaps some Gobiosoma gobies. Bob Fenner>

Possible Velvet Problem Bob, I think I may be having a problem and I think it is marine velvet. I have a six line wrasse, a dragon wrasse, a blue angel, a tomato clown, and a Foxface. All have been doing fine and all my parameters for water quality are good. What I have been noticing though for a while is very small white spots on my blue angel and tomato clown. When I first noticed this I thought it might be ich but I thought the spots looked too small and they had disappeared by the end of the day. This went on for some time. I would notice the fish would have spots in the morning but they would be gone by the time I came home from work in the afternoon. I initially thought that the white spots in the morning might just be sand sticking to the fish when they slept at night. They all lay on the bottom at night so this seemed to make sense especially when the spots were gone by the afternoon. It has been about a month now though and I have noticed that my blue angel has started scratching himself against the rocks and seems to be breathing a little faster. He occasionally has fits where he seems to spaz out as if something is really bothering him. My tomato clown has started to get cloudy eyes and he skin is started to look gray as if his color has faded or been rubbed off. At this point I figured something must really be wrong so I took the blue angel and the tomato clown out of my main tank, gave them a freshwater dip, and put them in my hospital tank. I have since treated them with CopperSafe. They both seem to be doing fine although I occasionally see the angel scratching himself. The clown doesn't seem to have that gray color anymore. His eyes seem to have cleared up too. The rest of my fish in my main tank seem to be unaffected. All the fish have been eating well and the angel and the clown have always eaten well and still continue to have good appetites. This morning however, both the angel and the clown had a lot of white spots on the similar to the ones they used to get in my main tank except there is no sand bottom in my hospital tank and they didn't have the spots yesterday. Are the having some sort of outbreak of ich or something in the hospital tank?  <Maybe... the report you render did/does sound like velvet/Amyloodiniumiasis in the first... but you may well have both parasites here> Are they having some reaction to the copper?  <Doubtful that this is the cause of the latter white spots...> The copper level is good. What else can I do to treat these fish and is there anything I can do to make sure that my main tank is clear of all remaining parasites if there are any.  <Environmental manipulation in the main and quarantine/hospital systems for sure... and the use of purposeful non-obligate cleaners when the copper is no longer in use... See the marine parasite pieces, FAQs and links posted on the www.wetwebmedia.com site... there's a bunch there, so do take your time> I am worried that the only reason my wrasses aren't affected is because they may be more resistant or something.  <Yes, very astute> My main tank is 125 gallons with plenty of live rock and a couple of mushrooms and polyps. I would appreciate any help or advice you can give me on this. Thanks, Gianluca <Do read over the WWM site my friend. And don't despair. Your fishes salvation is in your hands and you have the ability to reason this through and cure your system. Bob Fenner>

Oodinium problems Bob, How's it going? I just have a few questions for you. I have a 110 fish only with liverock that has been set up for close to five years. Most of the fish I have also had about five years including an 8 inch hepatus tang. I have been through this disease before but it was several years ago and I am wondering about possibly better treatments. It started when I accepted some fish from a friend whom I trusted (foolishly) after his tank sprung a leak. It was a Niger trigger though which made it very hard to see the spots. Initially I gave the tang a freshwater bath and lowered the salinity in the main tank (gradually) to 1.011 as according to a SeaScope article I read a year ago. I also added my 25 watt Aquatronics UV to the tank. This seemed effective and everything seemed to be improving over the next few weeks when the second outbreak occurred.  <Sounds like the common, "first volley successful"... but you may well "lose the war" w/o reverting back to tried and true copper treatment, along with environmental manipulation. Do read over the marine ich sections of the www.wetwebmedia.com site...> I was afraid that It would be worse this time so I treated with the only medication I knew of that might be safe for my live rock and sand MarinOomed. It has been five days now and I haven't seen any improvement. Is the MarinOomed an effective remedy for Oodinium. <Not generally when used in reef tanks themselves... I'd remove either the live rock, or the fishes... read the above mentioned citations> I know copper is the best but I am worried it will cause problems with the rock and sand. I know I should have a quarantine tank but I haven't had any disease outbreaks in years.  <Yikes... time to move... now> Also there are several large fish affected. Anyway is there any better treatment that you know of for a tank with LR. I know the freshwater bath is good in extreme cases to reduce the load on the fish . Also is it safe to run a UV in a treated tank. I would greatly appreciate any advice you may have. thanks for your time. Let me know if you need more details. Thanks Mike <Do move the LR... if that's the easiest... and get the copper and a test kit going... schnell! Bob Fenner>

Re: Amyloodinium treatment Hydrogen Peroxide >Thx for sending this along... Polydactylus are tougher than most all pet-fish... another pertinent note.... and H2O2 is hard to keep in good concentration... thus far. >Bob Fenner >> These were fingerlings they were treating, so maybe not so tough. I did a test on some tank-raised Dotty's that were flashing (had some losses, with no other obvious symptoms, and too small to get a gill scrape). They are in 2g cube tanks, and I did a test first dosing 4ml of 3% H202 [drugstore] in 1 litre (which by my calculations was 120ppm, but depends what they mean by "percent"). It showed no signs of stress after 30 minutes, so I repeated in the cube tanks (upping to 30ml) and just shut the pumps off for 30 minutes.  After dosing I aerated vigorously to mix. Fish looked peppier afterward (1day), no flashing except a single striped dotty (orchids were the only ones showing any mortality). This water was already very high ORP (~400) so concentration of H202 should in theory have been reasonable, but without a direct test, who knows. And how the angels and tangs would handle it I've no idea. Anyway, no more losses, but could be coincidental. But it's so much easier to deal with treatment-wise than copper sulfate, that it seems worth further investigation. I'll let you know if I do anything further. -Keith >> And do take a look at the Nelson Herwig effort on cataloging fish "remedies"... "Treatment of Fish Disease"... for further scientific and anecdotal data points. Bob Fenner

Re: Amyloodinium treatment Hydrogen Peroxide << Thought you might be interested in the following http://www.soest.hawaii.edu/SEAGRANT/Makai/nov98/2.html <Simple servants moved... Sigh... more money thrown away. RMF>[assuming you have not already seen it that is]. They did some follow up work to look at toxicity at higher temps (pertinent to us), but it does not appear to be the case based on the follow-ups up to about 150ppm for 30-60 minutes. Regards, -Keith >> Thx for sending this along... Polydactylus are tougher than most all pet-fish... another pertinent note.... and H2O2 is hard to keep in good concentration... thus far. Bob Fenner

Help! Amyloodinium Bob, I am really upset right now so please forgive me. I think my tank has Amyloodinium. The only way marine velvet could of come in my tank as far as I know would be through the Passer Angel. The passer is scratching, the Maculosus is breathing heavy and not swimming. He is covered in powder. The black durgeon is hiding and I think he's either dead or pretty sick. I'm going to do a water change. What can I do? I'm leaving for Israel on the 19th so I'm reluctant to medicate the water as my dad doesn't know how to do anything but feed and change water. I've read about medicines in FAMA Jan 1999 about medicines that use hot pepper and work. What should I do? - Thanks for your help.- Yaron >> >> Yeeikes... Very sorry to hear of your situation... And I did have a bad premonition about the Passer... as I recall I remonstrated you re its non-acclimation/quarantine... At this point? If it is Velvet... I would lower the specific gravity, raise the system temperature, and immediately institute a copper medication regimen... Please carefully read through the articles and FAQ files on the site: Home Page re this. And do this NOW!  The pepper sauce treatments will not solve this problem... Bob Fenner

What to do after Amyloodinium outbreak I enjoy reading your question and answers here on the FFExpress site, and I've been making my <way> through the archives. Now I have my own question. I recently <how recent? You're likely between "life/generation cycles">had what I believe to be an Amyloodinium outbreak. I saw small white dots on a number of my fish, and within 24 hours, it had killed a flame angel, a pair of Percula clowns, and a bicolor blenny <very possibly, or Cryptocaryoniasis>. Still in my tank are a Banggai Cardinal, a Fiji damsel, and 2 purple Firefish. I have been observing these fish<es> very carefully, and they don't have any of the external signs of Amyloodinium. They also seem to be breathing fine, and are eating fine. So, here are my questions -- are these species just mentioned hardier/more resistant? <not necessarily... the parasite may be something less generalized in terms of hosts...> Secondly, what do I do now as far as stocking my tank. Since there are still fish in the tank, I'm assuming that there will be a continued load of parasite. <correct> Before anything else, of course, I will be getting a quarantine tank -- I've learned the hard way, but the source of the parasite is now my tank. Finally, what product(s) do you recommend for treating Amyloodinium in a reef tank? Thanks, David >> There are no safe or effective products for treating Amyloodinium or Cryptocaryon in reef systems... Allowing the tank to "go fallow" (w/o fish hosts) for a couple of months (while possibly lowering spg, raising temp. to lessen virulence) and adding biological cleaners... may end the entrenchment... or lessen its effects... Outside of nuking the system (like chlorine bleaching all), there is no absolute sure way of "curing" the system's infestation... My further input (boring, and unsatisfying monotribes) on these twin plagues of reef-keeping can be found archived at www.wetwebmedia.com... You'll soon be quoting Ben.F with "an ounce of prevention..."  Bob Fenner

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