Copper...Or Hyposalinity (4/2/04)
Hello Crew! <Steve Allen today.>
  Let me start off by praising your site, it's has been a very knowledgeable experience reading the forums and the articles for beginners like me. <Glad to be of service.>
  I have been maintaining a 10 gal start up  FOWLR (due to space constraints) for 2 months now, waited 3 weeks to cycle 5 pounds of rocks and 4 inch sand bed, and until now there's still no fish. <Not much room for any, either.> I set up a QT in a small 5 gal tank for 2 healthy false percs and 1 sebae. <Personally, I would not put 2 clowns and an anemone in a 10G tank that maybe has 5G of water in it.>   I freshwater-dipped them with Methylene blue for 8 mins (they can't take it anymore) <That's long-enough> after they got stable in the qt. I noticed that after a week they started to get ich (white grainy spots like salt), still they eat flakes and small pieces of shrimp like there's no tomorrow. Sorry about this, there are no tank-bred species of any saltwater fishes here in the Philippines which is also why I would want to start one.  I would like to ask regarding copper treatments, since I read from the site that hyposalinity would cause stress to the fish I removed this from my options. <Read more. There is much support for hyposalinity on this site. Cooper stresses too. All treatments do. I treated a clown with hyposalinity no problems, Just lower and raise the SG slowly.> If I added copper in the QT tank for their treatment, should the water with copper stay for the whole duration of another 2 weeks or until they get healed or would they just be 5 to 10 minute dips in a separate hospital tank. <You need to treat for 2 weeks and keep the copper level safe/effective. Another alternative is FW/Formalin dips. Start here & read all links/FAQs:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm  >
Thanks! Romel <Hope this helps.>

More Velvet Blues
>Hey Bob,
>>Wrong Bob, you've got Marina tonight.
>Hope the holidays were parasite free for you.
>>Indeed.
>I myself on the other hand believe I have some nasty parasites in my tank.
>>Not good.
>Clowns and Damsels appear to be coated with little spots that look like sugar.
-rapid breathing
-scratching
-hanging out near top of tank
>>You sure make it sound like velvet - you'll need to act FAST.
>I have my 20 QT tank running a cycle ( I cycled with live sand, bacteria, and the old filter pads from main tank)
>>Cycling is a moot point when medicating, especially for something such a velvet.  Handle nitrogenous wastes by water changes.
>-Ammonia is .5 ppm and nitrates are 15ppm (On way down.  Was at  1 for ammonia and 20 ppm for
nitrates).  I am waiting for the levels to go down before I quarantine.  Do not want to take the fish from parasite tank to ammonia tank.
>>You wait they die.  The bacteria are going to die during medicating anyway.  Search our site on "velvet" for treatment options - they would include hyposalinity and freshwater dipping, copper and/or formalin treatments.
>Anything to speed up this process???
>>Treat your fish ASAP!
>Or in theory could I just do a water change from main tank to QT tank.  
>>No.  You're re-infecting the q/t with the velvet parasites.  This creature is VIRULENT, and not at all easy to eradicate.
>I think this would defeat the process of a QT tank though in this case considering
the disease is in the main tank.
>>You think correctly.
>My plan for you to comment on (Once QT tank is ready)
-Remove all fish from main tank
>>Check..
-Freshwater bathe fish
>>Check..
-Add fish to QT tank
>>Check..
-Add copper treatment to QT tank (SeaCure)
>>Cupramine is my choice, otherwise, check..
-Continue to perform routine maintenance (water changes) on both tanks
>>You left out the hyposalinity for the treatment tank.  Otherwise, check..
-After 60 Days return bathe fish (freshwater) and return to main tank.
>>Check.
Questions: Background
- In main 55 gallon tank I will have
-Live Rock
-Cleaner, Blood, Coral Shrimp
>>If coral banded, do watch these for aggression towards the Lysmata spp.
-Emerald Crabs
-Sifter Starfish
-Arrow Crab
-Snails
-Colony Polpy, mushroom coral, yellow polyp (Fiji Coral)
>>You sure you're comfy with an arrow AND an emerald?  Search on Mithrax/emerald crabs as well as arrows to be sure you want these in a reef system.  Both known troublemakers.
1.  From what I read I can increase temp to say 80 degrees to speed up life cycle of parasites.  Is this bad for main tank inhabitants?
>>They should be fine.  Don't use hypo in any system with the inverts.  (Hypo for the fish would be 1.010 - 1.007.)
2.  Do I apply copper just once to QT tank?
>>Follow the manufacturer's directions and test to ensure maintenance of proper levels.  You WILL need to correct dosage post water change!  The easiest way to do this for some folks is to add copper to the make up water, test and match levels.
>My assumption is my water changes to QT tank will dilute copper treatment
>>Yep.
>3.  Should I add some AmQuel to QT tank to help control levels?  
>>I wouldn't.  I strongly advocate using water changes to eliminate nitrogenous wastes.
>Thanks for your help.  Hope this works. Or please stop me if I am making big error in plan.  Cheers -CPN
>>See above, and do search our site ASAP to work out your plan of attack, it needs to be quick, my friend.  Marina

Marine Parasites 2 (12/26/2003)
Thank you so much for getting back to me Steve.  <my pleasure> I have been worried sick about this.  My husband swore, when I set up this tank, I would not be able to keep a salt tank going.  I had a brown thumb when it came to fresh water fish. I have had my tank for a year now and I lost one damsel, the day after I bought it, and a brown scopus(?) <Scopas> tang to reasons I don't know.  Fine the night before, dead under his rock in the morning. <Happens sometimes> Salt seems to be much easier. <Well, just remember to be conscientious and always practice good husbandry. Never forget the quarantine. One titanic struggle with ich will change your mind about how "easy" it is right away.>  Everything is doing so well (even the worms). <Glad to hear it.>
Thanks again, Patti

Sneak attack? Ich on fishes 
I acquired a Blue Line angel about a two months ago and things had been going well until three or four days ago when he started to breath rapidly, the only external signs of anything afoul were ich like spots on his eyes. I promptly gave him a fresh water dip w/Formalin  totaling 5-8min.
<a good move IMO>
and upon removal his respiration rate easily doubled.
<immediately after, yes... but minutes/hours later it should be stable or better if dip was done properly (pH adjusted, water aerated before being used... scary close match with tank temp, etc)>
At that point I thought it best to just keep an eye on him which made for a long evening, some 4-5hrs later his breathing slowed down but not to a normal rate.
<Ahhh... yes, good. As it should be>
The following day I gave him another dip exchanging the Formalin with methylene blue and putting him in a Q-tank with copper and antibiotics.
<Yikes... I was with you on the repeat dip (needed) and the methylene blue (increases O2)... but you lost me on the copper. Angels are very (!) copper sensitive.>
He had been eating up until two hours before I put him to sleep, he finally started to list over on the bottom. I had to have my wife put him down for me and explain to my little one why we perform euthanasia. It tore my heart out to see him slowly suffocate, today, we'll be burying him per my daughters wishes. My original point of this correspondence, it's been my experience that ich doesn't kill that quickly, does it?
<You are very correct. Most folks think takes a few days... but even that is not true. It establishes a week or more in advance (usually 2+weeks) and is expressed very subtly at first as the closing of one operculum or occasional scratches or glances off rock long before any "spots" appear>
I forgot to mention that he had a 1/4" bump on his side that didn't break the skin nor raise the scales, its cycle was about five days and went away on its own with no intervention. Do you have any thoughts?
<The bump on the side also was not fatal and quite likely secondary. I can't be sure with certainty what the cause of death was... but prolonged siege by the parasites unnoticed contributed... the Os o the display may be depressed and amplified it... the copper treatment may have been the killing blow on an already stressed fish. Formalin is very "safe" on a wide range of fishes... methylene blue is good for most (except scale less fishes) ... and copper has severe limitations IMO (efficacy and range of tolerant species). Formalin and FW dips always get my vote. Sorry for your loss my friend. Best regards, Anthony>

Ongoing Ich
Hi Bob,
I've got a 125 gallon marine set-up that has some of the tougher inverts (hermits, snails, star polyps, live rock, mushroom anemones) as well as an on-going plague of ich. I've tried garlic, so-called reef-safe medications, anti-parasitic food, raising heat to 82 and dropping salinity to 1.017.
<All the above are, at best, moderately effective. There are far more aggressive and effective treatments available.>
I removed my portable inverts to a separate tank and lowered the salinity to 1.010 for a week.
<Probably just a bit too short of a time. The articles I have seen say 7-10 days.>
I've caught the fish and isolated them in a separate tank for a month.
<The way I would have gone.>
Meanwhile, I emptied the tank, washed the substrate, and ran tap water through the tank for several hours.
<Wow! This is not what I would have done. Far more aggressive and destructive than needed.>
Needless to say, I lost some coralline from my live rock, and several fish due to a nitrite spike (I was lax) and several fights. The fish don't like going from a 125 gal to a 55. All this went on while my family watched me drip tank water with a look of frustration on my face. They quickly identified my "Dad lost another fish" face.
My questions: If I put all my remaining fish in my 55 gallon tank and let the tank "go fallow" for 2 full months, can I be fairly certain of getting rid the ich completely?
<There will be no viable parasites in the main tank after that time, but no guarantee that Ich cannot come back due to environmental stresses; temperature fluctuations are a big one.>
I've read one article that indicated after a 2 month isolation period, clownfish put into a tank that had lain fallow for 2 months after a marine ich outbreak, developed ich in several weeks. A second group of clownfish from the same source, put in another tank never developed the ich.
<The tank way have been the difference, but not because of the original parasites in the one.>
I think this was in Germany and the article was from the late 80's. Does lowering the salinity to 1.017 or lower for a month or two
ever actually get rid of the ich?
<Without a host, no fish, the parasites will die in one month's time.>
Thanks for wading through all this with me. I am eagerly waiting your response. Fish Dad
<Good luck to you! -Steven Pro (another fish Dad)

Re: Ongoing Ich
One question I forgot to ask: Many articles list stress and poor water
quality as a probable cause of ich outbreaks.
<Yes>
Isn't lowering the water salinity below the norm subjecting the fish to poor water quality and stress? ~Fish Dad
<Not the water quality part because water quality usually refers to lowered pH, dissolved organics, yellow water, high nitrates, detectable levels of ammonia or nitrite, etc. The is supposed to be no stress from the lowered salinity treatment because it is less work on the fish to regulate there osmotic balance. Saltwater fish must drink water constantly and excrete salt back out. This takes energy. If you lower the salinity, the weaken/sick fish have to work less to remain hydrated. That is the theory anyway and in practice a moderate amount of lowered salinity does indeed seem to be relatively unstressful, but IME, it is not all that effective either. -Steven Pro>

Raising the Temperature to Treat Ick
<<Not Bob, JasonC here filling in while Bob goes diving.>>
Hi Bob, hope you are doing well. I emailed you previously about the "impending ich" a week ago, thanks for the advice. My six-line "looks" better, in that I can't see any more white dots, but he still scratches a lot and constantly hangs around the heater and the top corners, not moving hardly. <<hmmm...>> He still eats, but his behavior is weird! Since I've raised the temp to 82, the other fish are breathing more rapidly and appear stressed more (darting noticeably more), should I get an airstone? <<yes to the airstone>> I only have a big bio-wheel filter outside and that's it (no protein skimmer or anything else). <<a good protein skimmer might be the next on your list of important tank items>> Water is clear of ammonia, nitrite, and barely any nitrate. I do 15% water changes every two weeks. It seems when the temp drops at night and in the morning, everyone but the six-line is doing much better. As if everyone else likes the lower temps (78) vs. 82. Am I messing the others up just to save the six-line? <<Well, most any fish you can fit in a tank in your home is cold-blooded. This means that when you raise the temp like you have, their metabolism goes up, so everything they do goes faster - breathing, etc. As for the night/day temp. difference, I would try to keep those a little closer together - 82 during the day, no lower than 80/81 at night. Big temperature swings are worse [more stressful] than a constant, higher than normal temperature. I don't have details from your earlier email to Bob, but from you description of the 6-line's behavior, I would guess he is feeling like that is the only safe place to be. Are there lot's of places to hide? Is it being hassled? Cheers, J -->>
-Jack

New set- up in the UK with outbreak of whitespot
Dear Bob ,
I have read much on your site about ich , but would still really appreciate some advice about my new tank . After 3 months of careful maturation I finally began stocking my 40g tank with live rock, and a first fish . Perhaps stupidly (?), I was talked into getting a powderblue tang as a first fish . 
<Arghh, not a good choice... as you well know now>
After two weeks and good water quality I decided to add 2 blennies . One week later I noticed the tang was rapidly covered with lots of small white dots which seemed to disappear and reappear - the fish appeared in no distress , but today I have noticed the spots have spread to the blennies and the tang is beginning to swim on it's side. As I have no quarantine tank ready and no access to copper for 2 days I feel limited in my options .
1) Is it worth doing freshwater dips to keep the parasitic stage at bay until I can treat the fish with copper?( I think I will do this tonight anyway)
and setting up a quarantine tank this weekend?
<Not really... more stress than benefit... and the obvious reaction sites on the fish are only part of the population... as you know>
2) or am I better off aggressively treating the tank with copper and losing the (modest collection of ) live rock? I am worried about destroying the filter if I do this and having to start all over again.
<Better at this point to lower spg, elevate temperature... to knock the ich back a bit, in preparation for moving the hosts/fishes and letting this system go fallow (sans fishes) for a good month...>
If I unfortunately lose the fish to this parasite , will the tank recover if I leave it fish free for 8 weeks?
<Yes, likely... especially with the environmental changes mentioned>
I thought I had read enough before I started , but your site , just discovered ,has made me much more aware of the benefits of quarantine and fresh water dipping .
<Yes, sadly...>
Thanks for a great site , and any help you can provide ,
Mat, England
<You're welcome my friend. Press on. Bob Fenner>

some disease
Hello Bob,
HELP!!!
I've got a problem in my 75 gal reef. within the last
week, my fish one by one started showing signs of
maybe some kind of ich or something. My keyhole angel
looks like he's lost all of his slime coating real
scaly . kinda like you scratch your arm and see the
white residue left on your arm. kinda dry looking 
their eyes are looking glazed over now , and the angel
is showing fin rot .Theirs not any real eratic
breathing just some shimmering and scratching and
darting ever now and then. My yellow tang did show
some spots of ich , but I treated it with greenex and
it's now dropped off. I have since started a 10 gal
quarantine tank, (a little late I guess), and have
moved all of them into it. I've treated the Q tank
with AMPICILLEX for the eyes and fin rot , and was
wondering if it's safe to add copper safe to the
q-tank along with the ampicillex already in there,
just for good measure on the ich problem .or if you
have any suggestions on medication or remedies at all
I'm open to just about anything. all the fish are
eating very well, I haven't added anything to the tank
in the last month at all, as far as livestock. any
help at all is greatly appreciated 
>>
Yikes, does sound like a parasitic problem, and yes to using the copper in the quarantine tank... And do be careful with the Greenex product... very toxic. Please read over the marine index: parasite, ich, medication sections on our site: Home Page for what you need to know.
Bob Fenner

I've had a really bad ich problem, I went to LFS told me to use
greensafe, since I have 2 cleaner shrimp, 1 fire shrimp, 1 coral banded
shrimp,flame angel, clarkii clown, 1 mushroom, and 2 polyps. 100lbs LR,
100gal tank, LR is totally encrusted with green, red, pink, purple and
it's been set up for two months now. I raised my temp to 84 F did water
change every week, until I put the greensafe, day later I lost my flame, 2
cleaner, and fire shrimp. I've had this problem before and I quit salt
water, but now It seems I failed again. Should I get ozonizer along with
my Berlin skimmer that I have now, I also thought of getting another
skimmer, the needle wheel type, I also have UV sterilizer, thinking of
running it along the ozonizer, would that be safe with reef tank, because
I know coral thrive in CO2. I'm just totally disapponted right now and
your advice is greatly appreciated.
>>
Yikes... well, once again I find myself shaking my head, and wondering why people in the trade endorse the use of such malachite and formalin products... as safe and effective for reef tanks. They are not.
Very sorry to hear of your trials, and do have some sound advice to offer. For one, henceforth, become resolute about dipping/quarantining all incoming livestock... especially new fishes.
For your present situation: The only likely way to rid the entrenched ich problem is to:
1) Remove the fishes to a separate system and treat them for two weeks with a copper-based ich treatment, using test kits for free copper levels and ammonia...
2) Lowering the specific gravity in your main system (to about 1.017... till your invertebrates, algae look like they're disimproving), keeping the temperature about where you have it (84F) and letting the whole system go fallow (w/o fishes) for at least a month (two is better).
Your present (Berlin) skimmer is likely fine for your system, adding an ozonizer, and/or a UV would be a plus... and not harm your corals.
Bob Fenner

Ich
Bob,
What is your recommended treatment for ich. I just purchased a cleaner
shrimp and added that to my tank. Would you do more?
>>
Depends on your circumstances. Cleaner organisms are a good "first response" to light ich infestations... for many/most types of fishes... and are useful in preventing ich to some extent. But, for obvious "hyper"infective states, removing the affected fishes to a more easily controlled setting (hospital/quarantine tank) and a copper-based medication (used with a test kit for the type of copper) is efficacious...
There are a handful of bogus ich remedies on the market now for some reason... the better ones just don't work, the others are toxic...
Bob Fenner

kole tang
Hello,
I had a Naso Tang which had ich and I treated him with
Rid Ich and the spots would go away for a while then
soon come back. He began to look kinda sunken in after
about 2weeks or so. Then he died a day or two later.
Now I have a Kole Tang and it also has ich and I
treated him with Kick Ich (a different product) but
similar results. He is also starting to look sunken
in. Both were eating fine. I am worried my Kole Tang
will die too! I was wondering if you know what could
be wrong and how I might be able to treat him? Any
Info you could give would be great. THANKS.
Brian
>>
Both the products you list are not worthwhile... Get/use a real copper-based remedy (e.g. CopperCure, CopperSafe...) and a test kit for the type of copper you're using (chelated or not)... and treat all your fishes in a separate system with lowered specific gravity (1.018 is safe for most all fishes)... and elevated temperature (82-84 F.) for ten days maximum... The tangs died from the treatment... they have beneficial microbes in their stomachs that can't take extended poisoning.
Bob Fenner, who says, read over the articles on copper use, quarantine, acclimation... posted at www.wetwebmedia.com

thanks-too late
Bob
thanks for the advice so rapidly. The whole tank must have been infected. The only fish left are 2 yellow tangs, all others died over night before I could even get to the store to get copper. It seemed to start with one fish or 2 that came from the PA store. They looked healthily that day bought, other tanks in the store had sick looking fish, could they have infected the water or the fish of other tanks?
This hobby is rapidly growing and fish stores are selling saltwater fish almost as fast as they get them in. They don't even have the fish sometimes long enough long for visual symptoms to show. What can be done to prevent this in the future? My 55 gallon tank is fine, knock on wood, I,ve had it up for 18 months and only had one fish die, a small angle-he was not eating when I got him and I chalked it up as bad luck. What just happen to my 150 gallon tank and all the fish is more that bad luck, $$$$$. Should I put a UV sterilizer on the 150 or both? What are your suggestion for adding fish? It seems every book, every pet store I've shopped varies or I,ve been lucky with the 55. Input please, what should I do to cleanse the 150 tank before I reset it up or add new fish to ensure what killed the others is not hiding in shadows for the next victims.
Russ
< Arrgghhh (as well)... yes... these parasitic diseases (ich/cryptocaryon, velvet/amyloodinium) can wipe-out a system overnight... as I had urged your immediate action in the first post.
And yes, definitely, the situation most likely has spread to other people's systems... even within a store with an effective filtration/sterilization system... through net/specimen container, casual moving of water twixt tanks... very bad news for all concerned.
Not all places have stores popping up, and many stores (and the people who supply them all the way up the chain) do their best and are effective at passing on such problems...
You should take the stance however that no one has properly treated your livestock before placing it in your main/display systems... And dip/bath and quarantine all incoming fishes. Don't know a good protocol, what gear is involved for this? Visit the articles archived on the topics at the URL: www.wetwebmedia.com
You should wait a good two months before trying to re-introduce fishes to the 150... and in the meanwhile lower the spg to zip (0.0000) for a good handful of hours.. Yes, drain it down, refill with freshwater, let sit, drain back down and refill with low spg marine (about 1.015)... to "pop" most of the parasites... weaken the rest... There are other approaches... this is the one I would take.
Bob Fenner>

Ich
Hey Bob,
I have a 50 Gallon Marine aquarium that has been up and running for two
months. I have 65 pounds of live rock, a skimmer, a "seastorm" bio-filter,
and a power head for current. All water tests were OK so I bought two
yellow tangs to complete the cycling of my tank and they both now have ich.
I am treating the water with a product called "kick-ich" with the active
ingredient 5-nitroimidazoles. I am very skeptical of the effectiveness of
this product. I am planning on setting up a quaranteen tank and I have a UV
Sterilizer on order. I plan to move the fish to the quaranteen tank with
copper treatment, install the UV Sterilizer in my main tank, and cycle the
tank for 21 days before returning the tangs (if they survive) to the main
tank. Is this the proper procedure to get things back in order and begin a
preventative maintenance program?
Thanks, Eric Blanton
< I share your skepticism... and agree with much of your plan... but would add some biological cleaners (Gobiosoma gobies, Lysmata shrimp) to the main tank...as the ich will at least partially resurface... and in the intermediate treatment time... do raise the temperature in the main tank to the mid 80's F. and drop the specific gravity to 1.017... this will greatly weaken the pathogens...
Bob Fenner, who does not agree with the practice of using Tangs to cycle tanks...>

still ichy here
Hi,
I have written recently about the ich problem I have. I also consider you a 
good reliable source of information which I thank you for. I have an Emperor 
Angelfish and a Flame Angel the have had the same spots of ich now for two 
weeks. How long does ich stay on the fish before falling off? Could this be 
something else other than ich? The fish are not stressed at all and are 
swimming very happily and going about there business looking for food etc. 
The fish are not rubbing on rocks, which is why I wonder if it might be 
something else. I have had major ich infestations before and the fish are 
not acting at all like they have ich. I am stumped please help!
Michael
>>
Ich (Cryptocaryon) stays on marine fishes a few days to a few weeks depending mainly on temperature... and there are other causes of "white spots" on marines... and the spots aren't the organism in question but a reaction of the fish to irritation.
And fishes can/do have such infestations that are prolonged, chronic... that may become acute in less favorable (to the host) conditions...
Cutting to the chase, I would do the usual in the way of environmental manipulation: lower the specific gravity (to 1.017) over the next few days... raise temperature to about 82 F. and place a couple Cleaner organisms like Lysmata shrimp, Gobiosoma gobies... and see if this does the trick... this time.
Going forward, I would institute a strict dip and quarantine procedure for all new fish livestock... to prevent these problems from the beginning.
Bob Fenner 

Bob,
I have a blue Tang with Ick and a Puffer 
Lamark, Angel, three Damsels, a Flame Angel, a Coral Beauty and a Maroon 
Clown. Some appear to have parasites and or flukes. I received a 
recommendation from a local pet shop to try Marine/Max followed by 
Marine/Care both by Topical Science. Have you heard of this treatment? Would 
you recommend this or another treatment? I am hesitant to dip each of the 
fish due to the consumption of time and the stress to the fish. I do not have 
a quarantine tank and I have Live Rock and a Blue Starfish in the tank as 
well so I cannot use copper medication. 
Also, on the subject of tank care, How often should I change the water and 
when I do how much of the gravel should I suction, a third, a half of the 
surface area? every water change? Any help would be greatly appreciated. 
Thank you, Nikki
>>
Thank you for writing... and I do know of the folks and products at Tropical Science... but don't know enough re the proposed treatment (first or second hand) to have a valid opinion. What I would do, either in addition or in place of this proposed procedure, is to do my/your best to optimize water quality, manipulate spg, and add some biological cleaners... let me expand on these three.
1) Do gravel vacuum the system, clean your skimmer, do any other deferred clean-up work.
2) Lower the density of your water down to 1.018... over a couple of days... by removing the tank water and just replacing it with treated tap/freshwater... this will bump off many of the parasites, and help your livestock.
3) Get a cleaner shrimp (the best Lysmata amboinensis) and maybe a couple of cleaner gobies (Gobiosoma spp.) ASAP.... these will help remove the parasites, and make the fish livestock "feel" a lot better.
Doing all these may turn the balance of health/disease to your livestocks advantage w/o resorting to other treatment... Do These now!
Re surface skimming, Yes, do remove just a little (maybe a gallon) or so material from the surface... to eliminate any film that may be there...
Going forward, please do get and use a quarantine/hospital set-up for all incoming fish livestock... 
Bob Fenner

Ich
You answered a few questions for me last week, for which I am very
grateful. I have added two tangs to my 75-gallon reef (in addition to one
that was already present) and within 48 hours, one is showing signs of Ich.
Unfortunately, the spots are on the gills already. I remember reading an
article, authored by yourself or Mike Paletta, that discussed new,
intersting Ich-fighting methods for reef tanks. If I recall, it was newer
than the turn-up-the-heat lower-the-salinity add-freshwater method.
Unfortunately, I didn't save it and now I can't remember and can't find it
on the Internet. Could you direct me to where I might find this information?
Thank you!
< Michael Paletta did pen such a piece... or something like it, that is posted on the ffexpress.com website. I have a slightly different opinion... or supplemental information to offer. Such "treatment" will not generally effect an actual "cure"... in any sort of "advanced" cases of ich (let's say ones that are a few days old, or where there are many spots on the host fishes)... And very often it is dangerous to raise the temperature where the fishes are already weakened by disease, and/or where such action will drastically reduce gas saturation (think of a soft drink on a hot versus cool day)... anyway, my further opinions on parasitic disease and their control can be found in a few places. On the net at www.wetwebmedia.com 
Bob Fenner>

Help
I have a 150 gallon tank which has been set up for approximately 5-6 months. I have an Oceanic Trickle filter and about 15 lbs. of live rock. The fish I have include a 2ft Snowflake eel, dog face puffer, Niger Trigger, Yellow Tang, Tomato Clown, and Clown Tang. Also a few crabs and snails. 
It appears that I am now having white spots on the fins. I don't want to diagnose this as something it is not and give them the wrong treatment. I have a quarantine tank ready to go, but would like to know the best cure for this. A fresh water bath? Copper (in quarantine tank only because of the live rock)? Other treatments?
Please help! I am somewhat of a novice when it comes to diseases.
Would a UV Sterilizer also be a good thing to add real soon??
< Let's take this a step at a time. It's important. Are you sure that what you're seeing is a parasite (at all)? Which fishes appear to have the white spots? Not all of the fishes? From where do you think the ich came into the system? In the short term, start lowering your specific gravity (a couple of thousandths per day) by removing system water and replacing it with freshwater. This will forestall the parasites development and reproduction (if this is what the spots portend), and give us/you time to think and communicate. If you are going to move the fishes, a pH adjusted (just use sodium bicarbonate, baking soda) teaspoon or so per gallon freshwater and do treat them with copper in the quarantine tank (if you move them). Copper use information can be found at my wetwebmedia.com website. Alternatively, and a better idea IF you decide to use copper to treat these symptoms, is to remove the live rock, snails and crabs, manipulate the spg as detailed above and treat the main tank. Yes, an ultraviolet sterilizer would help, but not cure the situation. And I'd encourage you to consider (with or w/o the UV) the addition of biological cleaners in the form of Gobiosoma gobies. Most likely the trigger, eel and puffer will recognize these for what they are and not inhale them Bob Fenner>

bob,
I have a125 gal. FO tank. With three fish. Currently I have a minor ich problem. I lowered my salinity to 1.018, and am running two Uv sterilizers. Plus I am giving my three fish freshwater dips, dipping them for 2 min. Now is this a good way to battle ich. With out using any medications?? Thanks
>>
The next best (other than a copper routine) route to try (along with lowering spg which you've already done), are biological cleaners. Lysmata shrimp are great for tropical tanks (if you don't have fishes, other animals that will eat them), and the small Cleaner Gobies of the genus Gobiosoma. Try these out... as the steps you have taken (UV's , lowered spg, dips) will not effect a cure on their own.
Bob Fenner

Last Tuesday I received my shipment of fish from Flying Fish. I followed 
Flying Fish’s acclimation procedures, then gave the fish a fresh water dip 
using Methylene Blue before adding them to my tank. Unfortunately when I 
added the fish to my tank my UV sterilizer had been returned to the 
manufacturer for repair. All of the fish are doing well with the exception 
of my Purple Tang and my Naso Tang, both of which now have little white spots 
on them. I have removed the two fish to 10 gal. quarantine tank where I am 
using Cupramine to treat the two fish. I still see little white specks 
floating in my tank, I’m not sure if they are from Coral Reef Disease 
(Amyloodinium ocellatum) or Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans). Due to the live 
rock in the tank I can’t use a copper medication in my tank. What would be 
the best way to treat my tank? I have a 75 gal. tank with a sand base and 
live rock in the tank and I have a wet/dry filter along with a Berlin protein 
skimmer and I’m still waiting on my UV sterilizer to be returned.
Thank You, Steve Stockton
< Hmm, I don't think the white specks in the tank are any sort of infectious or parasitic disease. Do take care with the Cupramine product to follow their directions closely (the first dose at 1ml. per ten gallons (real gallons of system water), raising the ppm of Cu++ (by the Porphyrin test method) to 0.25ppm... the second day addition to a calculated 0.50ppm... this will not measure as much of the copper is "going elsewhere"), and testing for same... I'd also encourage you to lower the spg for these fishes to 1.016 over a couple of days time (and raise it back in a few weeks when the disease is really gone). In the system itself, I'd employ some cleaner organisms (shrimps, gobies) and hope for the best (along with high and steady water quality, and strictly adhered to quarantine and acclimation procedures for all new livestock).
Bob Fenner>

 Ich / low salinity

I recently wrote regarding ich in my 125g (fish only) tank. My LFS recommended "ORGANI-CURE" and I added it as recommended. The ich was the result of a rise in ammonia resulting from a disturbance to the bacteria in my filter. I increased the lighting time to boost algae growth and I performed water changes as recommended. The ammonia is back at "0". Other than the ich, the fish appear to be doing well. The ich is limited to only the blue tang and I have also performed fresh water dips. The ich had not disappeared after nearly a week so I lowered the salinity to 1.018 and raised the temp to 82 degrees as recommended by the FFE website. 
9 hours after the change in salinity, I lost two fish. Their eyes were cloudy and somewhat "bugged out". I am preparing myself for losing more fish as their eyes also are cloudy and "bugging out". I am really unsure about the negative effects of lowered salinity on my livestock. Were did I go wrong??? I've enjoyed this hobby but the last week has got me questioning my resolve.
I bought your book and I've read it nearly form cover to cover.
Thanks for your insight... Scott
< Don't I know how you feel. Sometimes, even with the most complete information, efforts and gear, there are still unexplainable losses...
To me it sounds like you did everything "right"... maybe with the exception of lowering the specific gravity sooner. Yes, I would have lowered the spg as well. The eye cloudiness and losses may have little to do with the organicure or lowered salinity. It may be that what you are observing in the fishes eyes is a burn from the medication, or a later generation of a parasite, or a latent effect of the ammonia et al. anomaly... or very likely a combination of these and other factors... As always, good health of our livestock rests upon the three sets of factors (covered in some of my books, and on the wetwebmedia.com site): The initial state of health (genetic and developmental), Suitability of the environment (many factors:water quality/stability, foods/feeding, tankmate dynamics...), and Presence and degree of infectiousness of disease-causing organisms... so much to consider, but much to aim for in the way of planning and prevention... and allowing us to avoid "medication". Bob Fenner>

Bob,
I hate to have to write to you again, mainly because I feel like I'm taking up a lot of your time, but also because, well, I have to write again. I'm starting to get frustrated. To recap my adventures up to this point: I had some Cryptocaryn, I medicated with cupramine, the ich went away, my Naso stopped eating, I removed the copper, the Naso started eating again. Everything looked fine for two days, and now I see some ich on a couple of fish, the Naso, and the Purple Tang who we added the medication for in the first place. Yesterday, I added some crabs and snails, and a couple new pieces of live rock, but otherwise, nothing has changed. I guess my question is, is it ever advisable to just let the ich "run it's course?" I don't see how this could be a smart thing to do, but I really don't want to medicate the tank again. 
I'm guessing that you might suggest a quarentine period for the fish who show signs of infection, and that's crossed my mind as well. I just got a 20 gal tank for a Q-tank yesterday, but I have no biological established filtration for it yet (in fact, I don't even have any water in it yet). Would you advise quarentining the fish anyway? 
You also suggested Lysmata shrimp in one of your previous responses. I added three pacific cleaners with the crabs and snails, and found out very quickly how much my blue-head wrasse loves them. Do you think that some Gobiosoma gobies would survive in my tank? Here's another copy of a list of inhabatants:
1 7-8" Sohol Tang
1 6-7" Naso Tang
1 3" Kole Tang
1 4-5" Purple Tang 
1 4-5" Bluehead Wrasse
1 5" Juvanile Imperator Angel
2 Lawnmower blennies
1 Scooter Blenny
1 3" Seargent Major (wow, they grow fast!)
Two medium-large hermit crabs
About 40 left-handed and scarlet hermits
One arrow crab
About 15 assorted small damsels
And 30 Trochus snails.
Any help you can give will be much appreciated. I'm about at my wits end.
Thanks Again (and again, and again...), Randi
< Hello again... well, it's a tough call, but you might get by without moving, treating the affected fishes. It really will come down to a black/white situation: either by adding the Gobiosoma (which is a good idea, and that Blue Headed Thalassoma should leave them alone), the scales will tip in your and your fishes favor... or the situation will get much worse, possibly very quickly (a few days)... so do get the gobies and be vigilant... If they really get spotted, start breathing hard, move all the fishes...
Bob Fenner>

  Hi Bob,
  Thanks alot for your advice. It turns out that the Naso ate for the first 
  time this evening. Whew...  Cheers,  Randi
< "What did I tell you...?" Good news! Bob Fenner>
 
  Hi Again Bob,
  You may remember me, we wrote several times last week regarding my sick 
  purple tang, and the cupramine medication I was using to treat him. He  seems 
  to have bounced back nicely, and is doing fine. Unfortunately, I have 
  another (related?) problem now. Three days ago, I noticed that my 6" > Naso 
  tang was looking kind of skinny. I've been keeping an eye on him, and > it 
  looks like he's stopped eating. As soon as I noticed his drawn in > stomach 
  area, I replaced my carbon and did a 50% water change to get rid of the 
  copper. Alas, it seems like he hasn't eaten in the three days since I 
  did  this. When I feed, he'll come towards the food, but seems to retreat 
  as  soon  as he sees the other fish taking it. I've tried live and frozen brine, 
  flake, and I've tried to keep some nori in the tank for most of the day.
  His  colors look ok, and he still appears relatively active, though he may 
  be spending a bit more time sitting behind tank decorations than he used 
  to. 
  There were a couple of other things in the tank that had changed right 
  around  the time that I medicated the tank: I added a power head to circulate 
  water at the end of the tank opposite the sump return, and right before I 
  medicated, I'd added a 7" Sohol tang to the community (the naso was the  
  largest fish in the tank up until then). The two large tangs don't seem to  
  have any problems with each other, and were both eating a week into the  
  copper treatment (I noticed the problem with the Naso about a week and half 
  into it).
  Do you think his lack of appetite could be due to the copper treatment, 
or  any of the other environmental changes that I've described? What can 
you  suggest to get my fish back on track? I hope you can help, I'm really 
quite fond of this fish. If you need any more information, please don't 
hesitate to ask.
  Thanks in advance for your help.  Randi
< Yes, definitely the copper treatments did affect the tangs... And very 
  likely they will "bounce back" and regain their appetites shortly. 
  Surgeonfishes and their relatives are noticeably ill-affected by copper 
  just as you observed. If you can get some there is an algae that is cultured 
  in  Hawai'i for the "Poki" industry called "Ogo" that is irresistable to Naso/
  Lipstick tangs. I have pictures of this species sticking its head out of 
  the  water at the shoreline to get this stuff! Otherwise please have faith and 
  keep doing what you're doing... all should be well, better soon.
  Bob Fenner>

Marine Fish Question
Hello Bob,
I've been reading your column recently, and it looks like you have a lot of great advice for people. Hopefully, you'll have some for me. I've had a recurring problem with ich in my 3-4 month old 150g fish only tank. When one of my most recent aquasitions, a purple tang, began showing white spots, I decided to medicate my entire tank, in hopes of erradicating the problem (and to begin doing fresh water baths on my future fish!). Most of the ich seems to be gone from the purple, and it doesn't seem to have spread. However, he now appears to have a dusty looking substance covering his body, and I've now noticed it on his eyes. I don't know how this could be marine velvet, since the tank has been medicated for about a week, but I've never seen velvet, so I can't say for sure. The fish seems to be acting and eating normally. My ammonia, nitrate, and nitrite levels are very good. Do you have any ideas about what this may be, and how I might treat it, and prevent it in the future? My ammonia, nitrate, and nitrite levels are very good.
On a related note, since I treated the tank with copper, what kind of measures (other than water changes) will I have to go to to make the tank suitable for live rock and invertabrates? I've been told that activated carbon will remove the copper, but will this be enough?
Thanks in advance for your help! Randi
p.s. Love your book!
>>
Thank you for writing. The condition on your Purple tang may well be Velvet... unfortunately surgeonfishes are very susceptible to both ich and Amyloodinium... How would I go about treating it? If the fishes don't seem to debilitated (at this point) and only the Purple Tang is showing signs... I'd add some Cleaner Shrimp of the genus Lysmata (if they won't be eaten by other livestock you haven't listed), or Gobiosoma gobies to pick off the parasites...
    Preventing these scourges in the future can be done by selecting healthy livestock, AND dipping/treating them AND quarantining them for a good two weeks before introduction into the main/display system
    The copper med. will be readily removed (within days) by activated carbon use. And then you can add live rock, invertebrates.
Bob Fenner

Natural Itch Fighting & Pygmy Angel Problems

Wow! FAST response - thanks so much both for taking the time and sharing
your wisdom. I looked in your book first when I had this problem, but there
wasn't so much on natural itch fighting. Maybe I need to contact your
publisher and encourage him to give you a bigger book for the second
edition? ;-) Anyhow, thanks again for writing your Q & A, which I know
many many people gain a lot of knowledge from every day!
<The original "text" of The Conscientious Marine Aquarist was a more than one thousand page tome... way too much of most everything. And am quite leery of telling "partial stories" on a few counts, including the use of biological cleaners for strict treatment of external parasite diseases. You can appreciate how easily such statements could be misused>
You are right about the quarantine - I wish I wasn't so impatient to get
them settled in. I kicked myself a lot when the Itch broke out. The
wrasses I got were L. dimidiatus. Well, one disappeared within 10 minutes
of going into the tank (see question below about the black hole in my tank)
and the other hasn't been seen today at all. So, I'm back to the original
one, only. Do you think that even one is too many? I do understand the
concern about "pestering" the other fish.
<IMO, yes, Labroides wrasses are too bothersome in all but the largest (several hundred gallons up) systems>
Also, you mentioned something about "writing this up", but I'm not sure if
you are (a) serious an (b) which piece and where I would post it. I am new
to this hobby - having inherited a 2 1/2 year old tank and bought every book
in sight in an attempt to learn what to do ASAP - and am terrified of
hurting it somehow. I'm not sure that any of my input would be helpful to
others who are as lost as I.
<I'd send it to one (at a time) of the national aquarium hobby magazines, not just the net. My first choice is Freshwater And Marine Aquarium, they have a website if you can't find the magazine itself. The relating of your experiences and reflections upon them would indeed be helpful>
Here's another weird question set, if you have time:
In the past 2 months, I have put 2 cleaner shrimp, 3 L. dimidiatus and 2 H.
trispilus/H. chrysus (I'm not sure which they were) into the tank at various
times. Both shrimp, one L. dimidiatus and H. chrysus disappeared within
minutes of putting them in the tank. The other H. chrysus I found buried in
the substrate and assumed he was dead. As soon as I touched him, he shot up
and into the rockwork never to be seen again. I have carefully checked
every day for Amonia spikes etc., but have seen neither dead bodies or water
parameter troubles.
1) Could I honestly just have such a well balanced tank that it can absorb
deaths like this without showing any ill effect?
<Yes, it's very possible with live rock... good set-up, maintenance>
2) What happens to the bodies? I do have a number of micro-hermits but
they'd explode if they ate all that at one sitting!
<They mostly "just dissolve, disappear" many consumers, decomposers help out>
3) Should I tear the rockwork apart when a fish "disappears" in order to
find the body or just let the tank do it's "black hole" thing? Aren't they
supposed to float to the surface or something?
<No to tearing the system down, apart... won't really helpl; unless it's a big fish in a small system. Some fishes do float, many don't. Like the wrasses, they find themselves under the substrate, rock...>
Thanks, again! -Lorraine
< You're welcome. Be chatting, Bob Fenner>

Use of garlic oil to prevent ick
Dear Bob,
First, and foremost, I would like to commend you on your book The
Conscientious Marine Aquarists'. I have been an avid marine aquarists for more than 6
years. During that time, I have read practically every book on our hobby--many of
which are both well written and quite informative. However, I have to admit that your
work stands well above the others in that 1) it brings a humane and conscientious 
perspective to our hobby which is frequently, and unfortunately, missed by
other authors/hobbyists and 2) the information you provide, particularly in the
fish/invertibrate section, include background, habits, disease and eating behavior is an
outstanding reference--one that I have always been looking search for.
My question is in response to an article that Michael Paletta published on
the FFE web site which he discussed managing common diseases in marine fish. Michael
discusses using garlic oil both as a treatment and a prophylaxis for ick. Based on
his experience and advice, I decided to try this approach since I have add several bouts
with Amyloodinium and Cryptocaryon. I have a 180 gallon tank, with a wet/dry
filter, protein skimmer, mechanical filter and UV sterilizer. My water parameters
are all excellent. PH 8.3, ammonia, nitrates and nitrates all at or near zero and
specific gravity of approximately 1.022/3. water temp is maintained at 87.5F. My
alkalinity was low at the beginning of the week approximately 1.7meq, but I have
increased it to 3.0meq using a Sachem additive (reef builder). I also have a fish only tank
which includes approximately 8 fish as well as 160 lbs of live rock.
I noticed last Sunday (10/24/99), about the same time that 1) I began the
garlic oil treatments (they began on Saturday) and 2) I noticed the alkalinity in my
tank was low (1.7meq), that the production in my protein skimmer had fallen off to zero.
In other words, there was no thick foam collecting in the collection cup. There are
plenty of bubbles in the chamber, but the foam by product does not seem to be forming
and collecting.
What is going on here? What can I do? Do I need to worry? Should I
continue with the garlic oil regimen?
Thanks for your advice.
< Thank you so much for your kind, encouraging words (just what pet-fish writers hope to hear) and your query. I wish against all wishes the piece by Michael.P had not run on this forum... and yes, the lack of skimming is related to the oil introduced into the system. And yes, I would endeavor to remove the garlic stuff quickly... through water changes, draping a clean/odorless/non-printed paper towel over the surface of your system to "wick" the oil away... Again, I respect and like Michael Paletta, even count him gladly as a friend, but do not endorse garlic or any oil treatment in captive aquatic systems...
Bob Fenner, who thanks you once again.>

White Spots
I wrote you last Monday about white specks in my tank and on my Purple Tang
and the Naso Tang. Since then the Naso Tang has died from what looks like
fin rot and today I found one of the Raccoons dead in my 75 gal. tank. I am
new at raising salt water fish and would appreciate your help on what to do.
I have eleven other fish in my 75 gal. tank and about five or six of them
have spots on their fins. The white spots also seem to be all over the live
rock in the tank. I only have a 10 gal. quarantine tank where I am using
Cupramine to treat the Purple and Naso Tang.
Should I remove the live rock from the 75 gal. tank and treat the entire
tank system with Cupramine? Will installing a new carbon pack after the
treatment remove enough of the copper to allow me to put the live rock back
into the tank? Should I leave the tank along and get some cleaners such as
Mandarins, Gobies or Shrimps? I have a 75 gal. tank with a sand base and
live rock along with a wet/dry filter, a Berlin protein skimmer and a UV
sterilizer. The Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate are all at 0 ppm. the pH is @
8.2 and the gravity is 1.021. Your help on how to proceed with this problem
would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You, Steve Stockton
< Steve, thank you for writing again. Do remove the live rock and DO treat the fishes with the Cupramine, per their instructions and using a copper test kit. Don't worry about the white spots on the live rock. They are nothing to be concerned re. Yes, after the ich problems are solved (probably three, four weeks) you can run activated carbon and return the live rock and invertebrates. DO NOT place Mandarins (these aren't cleaners, and aren't very hardy), or shrimps (enough active ingredient... copper...) in the Cupramine to effect a cure will kill the Shrimp(s). I'd even leave off with the gobies at this point, as your fishes may be too infected for them to do much good, and they aren't very happy going through all the trauma of transport AND copper treatment...
    You'll have to measure and re-add the Cupramine at least twice a day to keep a physiological dose in solution, and read the instructions on the product carefully. They call for turning OFF your UV sterilizer... and you should (turn it off that is). I would also lower your spg to 1.016 over the next two days. You know how to do this, but I'll say something for the sake of continuity and browsers: take out some system water and replace it with fresh/tapwater.
If it's any comfort or help, please read over the references and articles posted on marine diseases, treatments, copper use, quarantine, dips/baths posted on the wetwebmedia.com site. Good luck, my thoughts are with you. Bob Fenner>

Natural Ich Fighting & Pygmy Angel Problems
I bought an Atlantic Pygmy Angel and a Pseudochromis three weeks ago and
kept them for a week in my 10 gal hospital tank with no problems. Then I
added them to my 3 yr old very stable - no itch ever - 80 gallon reef tank
with 2 Hippo Tangs, 1 Cleaner Wrass and 1 True Percula. The Tangs attacked
the Angel and he hid in the rocks so that I only saw glimpses of him for the
next two days. When he finally came out enough so I could see all of him,
he had developed a large white spot (presumably Itch) at the base of his
tail. Water parameters were fine and the other fish were OK.
I tried to catch him, but because of the extensive rockwork and about 30+
corals I didn't want to disturb, I _really_ could not catch him to isolate.
The next day I noticed two small spots on one of my Tangs and the beginnings
of one on my Pseudochromis. YIKES! Since I couldn't add Copper (reef tank)
and figured mostly all the fish were in danger now, I decided to buy two
more Cleaner Wrasses and a Cleaner Shrimp from the LFS in hopes that they
would natually fix the problem. In less than a day, the Tang & Ps were fine
and the Angel no longer had any spots. (Let's hear it for Mother Nature!)
Unfortunately, almost all of the Angel's tail (fin all the way to the base)
is also gone and, understandably, he's more shy than ever.
Questions:
1) Is it better to disturb your corals/tank to aggressively chase down an
ich-affected fish or try the "natural approach" first?
< First off let me commend you on your fast and intelligent action in this matter. Next, allow me to suggest extending your quarantine times to a good two weeks, not one.
And yes, if the types of fishes are not too susceptible (tangs are notorious) to ich, nor the infestation hyperinfective (lots of spots, fast), nor multigenerational (more than a week old) then a "Cleaner" approach is worth trying in a full-blown reef set-up.>
2) Now itch-less, do I have too much "natural cleaning power" in my tank?
< IMO yes, I take it the Cleaner Wrasses you're referring to are members of the genus Labroides (most likely L. dimidiatus, the blue, black, and white banded Indo-Pacific one)(there are other species of this genus of course, and other cleaning wrasses). These are almost always obligate in their feeding habits, pretty much living on the parasites and necrotic tissues of other/host fishes. And their incessant "cleaning" will drive your other fishes to distraction. Imagine a beauty salon worker chasing you about all day and night. If it were me, I'd pull them within a week or two and return them to your dealer for credit. I would leave the shrimp in the system however.>
3) Did the itch eat the Angel's tail or did the cleaner wrasses get
over-helpful?
< Actually, probably neither. I suspect first and foremost a so-called secondary bacterial infection ("tail/fin rot.. "fungus"), set in from the initial trauma from being attacked. With luck, good water quality it should grow back.>
4) Will the Angel's tail ever grow back, or is he a soon-to-be goner?
< Oh, see above. Guess it's obvious I'm not reading all the queries before attempting to respond :)!>
5) Are Tangs known to attach Angels? I didn't see that in any of the
research I did.
< Yes, Tangs will and do attack most anything that looks like like it might be encroaching on their territory, including surgeon-look like angels. Maybe you will write this experience up...>
Sorry this got so long. If only some of it might be useful to others, feel
free to edit as necessary. Thanks! -Lorraine
< No worries. Glad to be here to offer my help/opinions. Bob Fenner>