Help! Parasitized system choices  10/11/09
3 months ago I had a whitespot outbreak in my reef tank.
<No fun>
Took all the fish out and put them in quarantine tank but lost most. Lost a kole tang, a magnificent powder brown, a maroon clown pair and a royal gramma. The only fish to survive were the comet grouper and the neon damsel (no surprise there).
We left the display tank empty of fish for 5 weeks.
In the meantime we purchase a pair of ocellaris clowns and a very small lipstick tang. They stayed in quarantine for 4 weeks before being put in the display tank.
Purchased a purple tang that was in the coral display tank at my LFS for 6 weeks. We watched this fish for the whole six weeks in the LFS, no sign of any problems so he went directly into the display tank.
Then I acquired an achilles tang ( I had been after one for over a year)
put him in the quarantine tank. He was in there for 3 weeks with no sign of white spot but he developed a cloudy eye. I had planned to keep him in quarantine for another week but was advised by the LFS to put him in the display tank as the cloudy eye was because the quarantine tank was too small and the achilles was probably stressed.
<Oh oh...>
Put him in the display tank. A week later he developed white spot!
The white spot is getting worse.
He is the only fish with white spot. All the others are fine.
The achilles is still eating well and seems active.
But as you can imagine I am stressed out! I absolutely love this fish and don't want to lose him.
What should I do?
<Is a choice you'll have to make... to treat or not... and if to treat whether to move all or not... and then, what to treat with. IF I were to treat these fishes at this juncture, I'd use a Quinine cpd. in situ. Read here re: http://wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm>
Water is good. 0 nitrate, 0 nitrite, 0 nitrate, ph 8.0, 0 phosphate. 500l tank.
Help!
<Or IF I were to shoot for some sort of parasitized system balance, I'd be reading here: http://wetwebmedia.com/parasittkfaq2.htm
and the linked files above till I understood the ramifications of this choice. Bob Fenner>

Trying to save my clown (trigger): SW Velvet. Disease identification and treatment. 7/31/2009
Hello,
<Hi Don.>
You have a wonderful website with a great deal of great information.
<Thank you.>
I have a 165-gallon tank that has been up for 3 months. We have 1 clown trigger (4 inches), 1 nigger trigger (3 inches), 1 yellow tang (5 inches), 1 blue hippo tang (4 inches), 1 raccoon butterfly (4 inches), 1 yellow head goby, and 1 dragon goby (both 3 inches).
The water measurements are ph 8.2, ammonia 0.00, nitrates .20, nitrites 0.00, and hydrometer reads 1.022. The temperature of the tank ranges from 78.9 to 80.9. The tank has live rock and sand. We also have a 65 gallon tank that had been up for a year.
<Don, Thank you for providing these details. Also, while everybody gets along now and everyone 'fits' in this tank, you are likely to have some behavioral problems down the road.>
Yesterday my powder brown tang looked like it had swam through a snow storm. It started swim in small circles and refused to eat dinner.
Within about an hour he was dead.
<That is fast - too fast for Crypt. How long did you have this fish, how long was it quarantined, and how was it behaving recently?>
This is the first fish that we have ever had that has died. I had just did a 35 gallon water change the day before and moved the direction of one of my powerheads more at the rocks. I buy saltwater from my LFS same place I have been using the last year.
<Not likely a contributing factor.>
This morning it took a long time for our clown to come out of his cave.
When he did we noticed some real light white spots on him similar to those on the powder brown.
<Spots or bumps?>
He ate excellent this morning and we kept the lights off after the feeding.
At the dinner feeding the spots are still there and he ate excellent again. He appears to be swimming fine.
All of the other fish in the tank appear fine and there are no signs of white spots on any of them. They all are eating well and swimming as normal.
Could this be ich or what?
<Based on what you are telling me, it is possible, that or Amyloodinium.>
<Read here for descriptions and pictures that can help you identify the disease and treatment options:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/parasiti.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/amylloodiniumart.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/clndisood.htm (Deals with clownfish, but good pictures.>
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm >
I am at a loss, since it is now on my clown. Everything I have says tangs are walking ich carriers but very little on clowns. Any help and advice would be great.
<Do read above the linked articles above and see if you can determine the disease..>
Thank you,
Don
<MikeV>

Marine Ick... and more, reading   6/21/09
I have a potters angel which I have been treating for marine ick with Formalin 3. I feel bad because I stopped the treatment too early and now the spots have returned. The angel is still in my qt tank and I'm now going to do a second round of treatment but I'm wondering how he will handle another 6 weeks of formalin? Is there a better medicine?
<... quite a few... read on WWM re...>
Second question. I also have 2 false clowns that were exposed to the angel for about a week when he had spots originally in my 65 gallon reef tank. They have never shown any visible signs of white spots and they eat and act well. So they have stayed in the main tank for the last month while the angel has been in my 10 gallon qt tank and they still don't show white spots. Should I treat them along with the angel in my 10 gallon qt tank even though they have never shown a white spot since I purchased them 4 months ago? I'm just concerned that 3 fish in a 10 gallon qt tank is too much? Will they always be suspect as carriers no matter how much time goes by without spots?
<Yes>
However there's a twist now. I just noticed that one of the clowns pooped out a long stringy white thing?
<Please learn to/use the search tool on WWM re... this, these are all gone over and over>
Could this be a symptom of Ick or some other parasite?
<... Yes>
I read on one of your FAQs that this type of poop doesn't necessarily indicate a "pathogen" however I'm unsure what exactly is meant by pathogen?
<A biological contagion... causative organism of disease>
Is a parasite a pathogen or does that only refer to germs and/or bacteria?
<Encompasses all such agents>
Will formalin 3 treat stringy white poop problem as well?
<No... not w/o killing the host first... see WWM re Formalin as well>
I'm sorry for all the questions but I'm kind of new to this and really need some help because I'm feeling like I'm letting my fish down.
Thanks,
Martin
<... the search tool... listed on the home page... each of all the other thousands of pages... Bob Fenner>

QT disaster, please HELP, SW parasitic disease... reading  6/6/09
I pulled
>/// are we starting en media res? Where's the prev. corr.?<
all 4 of my fish out of my 180-gallon reef and started treating with Quinine Sulfate for Crypt, as recommended from one www adviser. I used the recommended dosage on the bottle. My powder brown which looked most affected before the QT started looking much better but then one morning had blotchiness all over him and was dead a few hours later.
<Mmm, I might have (FW pH adjusted) dipped/bathed the most afflicted fishes enroute... to "knock off" the bulk of parasites here>
The same day my clownfish was laying on its side and my hippo tang is breathing heavily. I said that's it and did two 25% partial water changes within 8-hours and I also through the carbon media back into the bio-wheel filter.
<... on the quarantine/treatment tank? This will remove the medication>
Now looking at my remaining clownfish and hippo tang, I see what looks to be powder on the fish,
<Whitish? Of what apparent size?...>
especially the hippo tang. I can't tell if this is Marine Velvet or not because the entire tank/ glass walls have powder on them from the Quinine Sulfate. I just fed the tang and it ate everything but it is breathing
very hard and I am watching it right now struggle to stay upright. I am thinking about putting it back into the main tank which has been fallow for only a week. Please help, what would you do?
<A bit more reading. Bob Fenner>

Re: QT disaster, please HELP, more reading  6/6/09
In regards to the message, below. I decided to do a freshwater dip with Methylene blue for 4-minutes.
<Oh! Should have been done when the fishes were moved in the first place>
Then I put the tang back in the fallow main tank since it is very stressed in a small tank and my QT has .25 ammonia ( I have been using Amquel+ to take care of that)
<Won't do so ongoing... need a biological filter... More reading>
The freshwater dip did nothing at all to remove any of the powder looking stuff all over its body. Does this mean that it may not be Marine Velvet, because it did not remove any of the powder which I thought were parasites?
<Not necessarily, no. Both parasites can be "so embedded" that the mucus spots/dots (which is what we see, not the actual parasites) look permanent>
Now I have my 2x clowns in the QT still and my tang in the DT by itself.
<?! Why in the display tank?>
If/when the tang dies I think I would feel better if it died in my reef tank, its home. I just don't know what to do anymore.
Thanks.
<Read. BobF>

Re: QT disaster, please HELP 6/6/09
Thanks Bob, I did read your white paper on Marine Velvet, but it doesn't really say that there is anything that will eradicate marine velvet from fish, for sure.
<Mmm, I do want to state/admit... that as far as I'm aware and concerned there actually ISN'T anything that will eliminate Amyloodinium from fish for sure...!>
With crypt we know that copper works well but it seems to be hit or miss with velvet. My hippo tang is dead now so I am left with a fallow display tank and still have those two clownfish in QT with a slight white dust on them. I feel VERY bad about my tangs, especially the Hippo I had for 2-years. I am really questioning myself about the decision I made to take all the fish out and throw them in QT.
<Good to question, bad/sad to have lost your fishes>
The Hippo didn't even look bad (powder brown did)
<"Looks can be deceiving". Appearance is not indicative of state>
but I stressed it out to the max and caused it to die. I thought it was small cases of crypt the tangs were getting, but it looks to be more like velvet now. It must have come on a live rock a coral was on or something, because I haven't added any new fish in months and even when I did I QT'd them. Thanks again.
<Can be introduced via anything wet. B>

Re: QT disaster, please HELP... parasitic  06/06/09
Thanks again Bob, so if you were in my shoes what would you do? I have a 180-gallon fishless reef and a clownfish pair that may have been exposed to velvet in a QT. I know the reef will be left fallow, but I am scared to ever put the clowns back in. Thank you.
Ryan
<Well... likely the system is and will be infested... see/read on WWM re "parasitic reef systems"... B>

Ich AND Velvet - Need help fast!   04/04/09
You have been so helpful in the past, both through books (Conscientious Marine Aquarist) and WMM which have helped me with my new 120 gal tank be successful. I waited 7 months to stock my tank (hard to be patient, but I was) and my tank has become my pride. I started stocking in December and was adding the last of my fish (3 tangs). Now my demise is giving in and buying a fish not on my list (and against your advice) so I deserve what I get and am mad at myself for putting my fish through this.
I bought the 3 tangs on 3-14-09; zebrasoma flavescens (yellow), Acanthurus japonicus (white faced), and my mistake, the Paracanthurus hepatus (blue hippo). I gave them all three a freshwater dip with methylene blue for 5 minutes and then into a 10 gal QT tank.
<Mistake... these species can't be crowded together like this>
I changed 2 gal of water out each day and had no chemistry issues (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate all stayed 0) by doing that. I have a sponge filter and some PVC piping for them to hide in and an airstone to add more water since my powerhead seems to move the water around too much for them. QT tank is set at 80 degrees. All three eating good, feeding in the evening mysis shrimp and Formula 2 I soaked the food in garlic one day and the next day in Selcon. In the morning, I fed the Spirulina flakes.
<Good>
Following your advice to a tee until on day 15 (3-30-09, they started bullying the hippo from getting food, so I was concerned about 3 tangs in a 10 gal anyway so since they were eating well and looked fine (no spots, eating, no flicking) I moved them to the display tank. (I use a Fish Corral box instead of netting them seems less stressful), also gives me a good look at them and the ability to drip acclimate them to the display and keep them in the Corral in the display for a few minutes to let the other fish check them out without immediately attacking them.
<All good points>
I let them go and they all swam around and none of the fish fought with them. So for the next 24 hours I watched carefully to make sure they weren't picked on etc.
So on 4-2 (Tues) I see spots (like sugar) stuck to the blue hippo body and dorsal fins and some on the dorsal fins of the chocolate tang. Panicked I quickly caught the blue hippo in the corral and looked closely at the spots!
How could I miss that? I did another freshwater dip in methylene blue for 5 minutes and back in the QT she went. I then added 8 drops of the Quick Cure (Formalin, Malachite Green) to the 10 gal QT daily. I caught the yellow and she didn't have a single spot on her so I put her back into the display (probably a mistake). I couldn't catch the chocolate, but when I got home from work, she didn't have anymore spots on her, but I was concerned about stressing her more trying to catch her � she's a smart one and wouldn't fall for my corral tactics.
Last night (4-3), the hippo was covered in velvet (looks like she was rolled in flour). So what I thought was Ich turned to velvet?
<Mmm, no... could be either, both>
She died this morning (4-4) in the QT :-(. I've been up all night reading about the stages of Ich and velvet � but I am hesitant to tear my 120 gal down and send all the fish off to the hospital (which I would need a bigger tank) if none of them show any signs of illness � except the 5-6 spots on the white faces fins.
So my question (finally � you say) is, given the display tanks exposure to the blue tang for 24 hours and the chocolates possible illness (probably brought on by my panic to get her out) do I watch and wait?
<Mmm, a toss-up... I'd wait, while ordering Chloroquine...>
(its now been
4 days since the tanks exposure to the tangs). Do I take down my tank and catch all my fish and move them to the hospital (not sure how big I would need � see list below).
And finally, I'm not sure what to treat for (which is my main reason for writing to you (and its unfair since you cant see � thus the long email I'm trying to give you all the details to help). What I thought was ich turned out to be velvet?
<Not able to say/state, but if Amyloodinium had taken effect in your main system, very likely all fishes would be dead by now>
But then I would think, as fast as that kills, my whole tank would be more in trouble than it seems. So if I move them all-out, how do I treat them? I've read how you leave the main tank fallow for at least 8 weeks. I can probably keep my invertebrates in, so I can find those answers in your site readily enough. If I move them, I should keep all in the display except for the fish (but can the mandarin stay in as well given her thick slime coat?) When I called my LFS, they suggested two directions: buying a cleaner shrimp or cleaner wrasse or tearing the tank down and putting a UV light on the display.
<Mmm, possible good advice...>
Tank parameters: Euro-Reef 180 skimmer, Eheim 1262 return pump, Current Sundial T5HO 4x54 watts, on 8 hrs, 125# live rock, 1 inch sugar fine sand in display and 50 gal refugium with 6" deep sand bed (sugar fine). Refugium lights on for 12 hrs at night with Chaetomorpha linum 3 Maxi-Jet 1200 and 2 Koralia-4 circulating the tank.
Tank parameters:
79 degrees
1.026 sp gr
0 ammonia
2 nitrate
1230 magnesium
360 calcium
0.03 phosphate (use RO)
7.7 kH
2.74 Alk
0.01 Iodide
0 Iodate
Livestock:
Astrea turban snails (6)
Nassarius snails (4)
Coral Banded Shrimp
Fromia starfish
Emerald Mithrax crab (2)
Green star polyps
Red mushroom rock (4)
Order of introduction � all quarantined first
Pajama spotted cardinals (5)
Green Mandarin (1 ½ yrs old from old tank)
Royal Gramma Basslet
Coral Beauty Angelfish
Flame Angelfish (they both get along well)
Cinnamon clownfish (9 years old from my old tank)
Diamond Watchman Goby
Yellow Tang (zebrasoma flavescens)
White faced tang (Acanthurus japonicus)
Any thoughts on my parameters is appreciate as well, but not top priority since I know that if I am dealing with disease I have to move quickly today and go buy a tank and set it up today. My 10 gal QT needs to be bleached and cleaned, but cant put all these fish into it. How large with this population would you suggest since they have to be in it for 2 months?
<... fifty or so gallons>
Now that my QT tank has velvet in it, am assuming I'll have to throw my sponge filter away?
<No... any water, surface could be infested>
If I need a 50 gal hospital tank for these fish, I would need an additional filter � what type would you suggest if I have to treat with medications?
<Read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/cryptcures1.htm
and the linked files above... and here: http://wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm>
And finally, if I have to treat � what do you suggest for the above symptoms? And the moral of the story � minimum 30 day QT for tangs <And one to a quarantine system>
a whole year of careful planning down the drain and am hoping you give me something positive � as I hate to stress all these fish out if I'm wrong.
The White Faced tang is showing no signs of sickness (fast breathing, scratching � only the couple of spots on the front fins). All other fish are also without signs of sickness.
<Let's hope you can settle on a low-pathogenicity resident situation. Bob Fenner>