Re: Ich/Puffers and Hypo
Hoping to help spread the word, here's another supplier I found, no word on quality:
50-63-5 | Chloroquine diphosphate salt, 98% |
N4-(7-Chloro-4-quinolinyl)-N1,N1-dimethyl-1,4-pentanediamine diphosphate
salt | J64459 | Alfa Aesar| Alfa Aesar
| 50-63-5 | Chloroquine diphosphate salt, 98% | N4-(7-Chlo...Hazard
Statements ...
| View on www.alfa.com
<Thanks. B>

Two questions. NLS Quinine product; Cephalopholis stkg., sel.      2/11/15
hey bob,
<bh>
I have read you are a fan of quinine based Meds for ich as opposed to hypo.
<Yes>
What do you think of the new life spectrum product "ich shield powder"? It is supposedly Chloroquine phosphate.
<Don't have any personal experience with this product, but know the owner of the company (Pablo Tepoot) to be an honest, competent person>
Also, I asked my lfs to bring in a bigger miniatus grouper a few weeks ago, and he brought in that's 6 to 7 inches.
Does that side grouper translate better than a smaller one?
<Mmm; no... a three-four inch specimen is ideal... Unless you have large/r tankmates already>
Also, does it really make a difference with them if they are indo pacific, vs. Sri Lanka or Fiji? Not concerned color wise, simply health and hardiness.
<Just not P.I. or Indo... all where else are superior. Bob Fenner>
Thanks
Bob
Re: Two questions     2/11/15
Thanks bob. Is that quinine sulfate or Chloroquine phosphate you prefer?
<See WWM re>
I see it is not easy to get a hold of, wonder if the fish pHarm. crypto pro is any good? 
I will ask lfs if he knows locale of grouper. It came from quality marine, so he may not even know.
I can almost definitively say source is huge. My gray and blue angel from a month ago are doing well, as they were from Florida, caught and shipped. A year ago from California, dead in a week.

Ich and CP Tx        1/7/15
Hi, Thanks for having such an informative site, and happy new year!
<And you J>
I have been reading the past few weeks on trying to cure ich. My fish have been free of it for a while and I recently upgraded and foolishly threw in a couple tangs without QT (never again, trust me: I've had heaters blow and kill fish in the meantime with transferring, been electrocuted many times, spent more money than I should with salt, water, etc).
<Dang! Trial by fire!>
Anyway I am currently dosing an approx. ~38.5 gallon total volume hospital tank with a yellow, purple, sohal, and Naso tang, 3 Anthias, small 6 line, blenny, and two clowns (they normally live in a 6' tank).
<Mmm; I would have tried treating these in place (in the main tank)... Too much stress from crowding; esp. all these surgeonfishes together in such a small volume>
Anyway, the sohal and purple tang showed up with spots when I introduced them into the tank, so I pulled all fish out on Xmas day. They recently began Tx on Saturday 1/3/15, at an initial dosage of 5/8 tsp. An additional 1/8 tsp was added on 1/4, but then I noticed some of the fish (namely the sohal and the purple tang) not eating like before. The sohal would devastate any Nori when in the tank, and now just grazes by it.
<Yes... the aforementioned stress from crowding>
The yellow and purple tang are definitely showing spots of ich now, and the sohal and yellow tang scratch their bodies on the PVC piping. Naso tang just cruises along and eats like normal, male Tierra Anthias seems uninterested in food at the moment as well.
I have been trying to find an answer to no avail, but I did a 10% water change to reduce the concentration of the CP to approx 5/8 tsp, when I noticed them last eating like normal in hopes of getting them back to eating. So I am writing you to ask if 1) does CP cause a suppression in appetite after a day or two of Tx,
<Yes it does, can.... along w/ all being jammed together>
and also, can and does ich appear even when Tx the water with CP?
<Well; the "spots" may not be Cryptocaryon if this is what you're asking.
Only can be accurately ascertained via sampling and microscopic examination>
Is CP only effective in the free swimming state of ich?
<Yes; as far as I'm aware>
Thanks for any insight, and I look forward to your response.
Sincerely,
John
Re: Ich and CP Tx        1/7/15
Thanks Bob! I know the HT is a bit small,
<Way too small psychologically... Acanthurids do NOT like... am working on a title of the family presently>
fortunately for me (?) the tangs are on the smaller side, 2-3" max. The yellow tang is the most established, 2.5 years old and Max size of 3.5".
There are definitely bumps coming from the sides of its body that weren't there before.
I chose to pull them out because I was going to do hypo on them, but I realized it may be difficult to do so. So I bought some CP instead. They have been in the 40 gal breeder for about 1.5 weeks, eating normally and (still) swimming fine.
I must add, I do have coral and inverts on my DT, thus i didn't think of treating the main tank.
<Life... is a series of compromises...>
I must ask you, do you think if I keep my water good and run the CP for at least 7 more days, they may be okay?
<Maybe>
I really want to run the CP for about 3 weeks IF I could, and from all I've been reading the CP would be contraindicated in a reef tank.
<Usually; yes... does/will kill off a BUNCH of life, cause complications that may well not be easily countered>
Again, I appreciate your insight and thoughts and you're far more of an expert than I!
:)
Thanks again, Bob!!!
<Certainly welcome John. BobF>
<If it were mine, I'd return all these fishes to the large system, GIVEN the caveats presented on WWM for use, and try the CP there; at 15 mg/l. Bob Fenner>
Re: Ich and CP Tx      1/9/15
Bob,
<Hey John>
I just wanted to give you a quick update: I was able to move five small fish into a 10 gallon tank (2 clowns, 3 Anthias) and all that remains in the 40 are the tangs, a small wrasse and a blenny.
<Hope they're all getting along>
The CP is definitely showing signs in the tank where the white film is all over the inside glass. Fish do have white stringy feces, and some still aren't eating right.
<Yes; these are effects of the CP>
I had the water tested with an API ammonia kit and it is showing 8.0 ppm within a few minutes,
<Yeeikes!>
performed some serious water changes and then tested using the Red Sea ammonia kit and only find 0.8 on their colorimetric chart. Odd, right?
<... not really. API test kits are junk; neither accurate nor precise. See WWM re getting better assay gear>
Ammonia alert badge is showing alert levels only. Could the API test be giving me bum results?
<Assuredly; yes. Your fishes would all be dead...>
No signs of heavy breathing, fish don't show signs of ammonia toxicity.
Anyway, the spots on the yellow and purple tang have fallen off, and i hope they don't show for the duration of the treatment! None of the tangs seem to want to scratch anymore.
<Good>
This is one costly non-QT mistake that I'll never make again. It's a little disheartening to know the fish didn't have to go through this if the other fish were QT'ed, and I hope I don't make them pay the ultimate price for MY mistake.
<Me too... these sorts of frustrations, losses... the lack of readily available, useful information (hence WWM) ARE the principal reasons the hobby "runs through" about 100% of "customer base" every year. Please don't leave>
John
Thanks for e-listening!!!
<Glad to share. Bob Fenner> 
Re: Ich and CP Tx     1/10/15
Happy Friday, Bob!
<And you John>
Surprisingly tangs have been getting along fine. :) They really don't paying to each other, and every once in a while they'll bicker, but nothing to the point of a death match!
<Ah, good; like many Cichlids, when crowded Tangs may get along for a while>
At one point, the sohal would "shake" or spaz as he/she swam and would rub the gill area on a pvc pipe, and then stop where the water returns from the HOB filter. But no fast gilling/breathing. It did that for most of the day, today it seemed a lot more calm and swam normally. No other tang was exhibiting this.
The only fish I am wary of is the 6 line in the same tank, it hovers in one spot in the tank, but will pick at Masago when it's dropped in the tank (i drop very little food into the hospital tanks with the ongoing "ammonia problem" I have; Red Sea test tests 2.0 ppm, and I have been using Prime and two bottles of BioSpira so far. A third bottle on the way)
<Ok>
The purple tang seems to have regained some appetite, and the sohal is the only one in THAT tank not eating.
<Not a problem really>
In the other tank I noticed the Anthias swimming 90 degrees vertically, face up. I thought they were goners but as soon as lights are out, they swim to the bottom and take refuge by the pipes. What gives? When i approach the tank, they are alert and dart to hide and go horizontal. Any ideas, Bob?
<Stress, the medication>
Thanks for being available for the aquatic community!!!
I trust you'll have a great weekend!
<Ah yes; thank you. BobF>
Re: Ich and CP Tx      1/11/15
Bob!!!! Great news, for me at least, :)
<Ok!>
Looks like most fish, especially my favorite sohal, has regained their appetites! Sohal used to only eat Nori, and is back at devouring it again.
So my observations with CP Tx:
1) appetite suppression (hopefully gone by now)
2) slowness, sluggishness in behavior, I wouldn't call it lethargic though. Almost like "fish high"
3) ich appeared during treatment, but most likely ich completing the life cycle during Tx in the fish.
4) accumulation of white film on glass, and a weird smell coming from the tanks.
5) "ammonia spikes"- not sure what to make of this.
<All known effects>
Anyway, I'll update you in hopes that maybe you'll be able to share my experience on WWM so others can learn too.
Thanks Bob!
John
<Thank you for sharing>
Re: Ich and CP Tx       1/23/15
Mr. Bob!
<Hey John>
A quick update: I had to ditch CP as a few days ago (7-8 days) ich exploded on my sohal during tx. Thus I concluded the CP I bought, from a seller who gets his supply from Fishman Chemicals, wasn't potent or pure enough.
<Ahh!>
At least the BioSpira saved the fish from ammonia poisoning while in the HT.
<Good>
At this time, I am performing tank transfer for my remaining fish. The Anthias (who don't eat by the way... ANYTHING) and clowns are in a separate tank still and have never displayed any signs or symptoms of ich. Odd.
<Does happen...>
The remaining tangs (yellow died during first couple of days into TTM, as did a wrasse) and Midas are doing well in TTM, eating normally, and not flashing. The sohal was the worst and he seems spot free at the moment and has not flashed.
I transferred them out the next morning after the sohal had the worst display of ich. Sure as day, the afternoon after the ich exploded on him, the lesions disappeared and he looked normal. Luckily and hopefully they all remained back!
Anyway, now I am tasked with getting some pure ammonia in this newly set up QT ( new water, all equipment soaked in fresh water and vinegar for a day and dried for several days) and adding some BioSpira later.
I must admit I've never had to set up an emergency, un-cycled QT before, and I must get the fish in the QT by mid next week.
Any suggestions besides using anything from the DT which has been fallow since 12/25/14?
<All posted on WWM; best to look there first>
Thanks for any insight, Bob! :)
John
<Cheers and thanks for the report. Bob Fenner>

Chloroquine phosphate -- quick and cheap! And timely!  09/29/10
Just wanted to confirm the information for an inexpensive source for Chloroquine Phosphate that was mentioned on WWM. For about $18 (most of this cost was shipping), I had two, 20-packs, of 250 mg tablets shipped from www.chemistdirect.co.uk.
<Wow!>
Ordered on a Sunday, arrived the following Friday in Ohio-- not too shabby, time-wise, shipped from England! Hopefully, I won't need even a fraction of these tablets. Handy too, should I ever need to visit the deepest, darkest parts of the African continent...
Mike
<Thank you for this note Mike. A bargain! Bob Fenner>

Re: Purple Tang   5/5/10
Mr. Fenner, thank you for taking the time to respond to my email. I will contact National Fish Pharmaceuticals and order quinine unless you know where it would be available in Canada.
Thanks again, Tracey
<"Time is of the essence", and unfortunately, I do not know much re such availability "up north". Cheers, BobF, in Egypt presently... yes, it's 3:46 AM>

Re: Decision re: Achilles Tang transition, CP sourcing in Canada   3/11/10
Hi again Simon, can you tell me where I can get this med in Canada, my lfs has no idea what I am talking about when I asked for Chloroquine Phosphate, thanks for your help.
Tracey
<Pardon my "cutting in" here Tracey. As Simon is in the U.K. (and I'm a yank), I'll point you to the locations listed on WWM. Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm
Alternatively, you may have success securing CP through a veterinary or medical doctor.
Bob Fenner>

Treating main tank with quinine sulfate(Crypto Pro) Quinine Treatment 2/16/2010
How's it going Mike? Crew?
<Hi Aaron.>
Well I have taken Mike's advice and have started quinine treatment. (Crypto Pro)
<Excellent!>
I have treated in the display. Turned off uv, skimmer and removed all chemical filtration. I do still have substrate in my tank. Crushed coral.
<Should be fine.>
I am confused on how to properly dose. The bottle says to treat daily with 25% water changes. I contacted NationalFishpharm and Dr. Aukes recommended treating once and leaving for 5-7 days.
<I agree with the doctor.>
Changing 25% every day seems quite expensive as far as salt is concerned.
<I would agree.>
I am currently laid off until spring and am lucky I was able to order the Crypto Pro in the first place. Would you think treating once and leaving for a week will eradicate the ich?
<Personally, with an infestation that was as strong as yours, I would do two courses of treatment, of 5 to 7 days with a 25% water change after each.>
I was worried about substrate adsorbing the quinine?
<No worries there, once the treatment is finished, just turn the filtration on and start running carbon.>
I am sure this is a great medication it's just the instructions are sketchy and in my personal opinion NationalFishPharm's support is not the greatest.
<Sorry to hear that. This is actually the first I've heard that.>
<MikeV>

Re: Harlequin Tusk, hlth. Quinine cpd. sources  -- 11/03/09
Thanks for the prompt reply. I am interested in trying quinine compounds to treat crypt. Do fish stores supply it or is it available from drug stores?
What are some brands available? Thanks again.
John Catanzariti
<Can be procured through a human MD, veterinarian, or some specialty etailers... Please read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm
BobF>

Re: ich? copper not curing it if so - possibly Brooklynellosis? 12/27/08 Bob: Thank you very much for your prompt response and advise, including a reply on Xmas day - now that is absolute dedication that all of us WWM users can't thank you enough for providing such wonderful "service". <Welcome James> I did see this Chloroquine Phosphate treatment protocol on WWM 4+ weeks ago when I first started researching how to go about dealing with my sick fish. And I even tried to get my hands on some of this stuff, but I kept running into websites that required prescriptions.... So I decided to go the tried and true route of copper, but now appreciate that I need to try this new method. This morning, I was able to find a website that will send Chlor Phos without an Rx - the URL for this site is as follows: http://www.drugdelivery.ca/s33577-s-CHLOROQUINE-PHOSPHATE.aspx <Thank you very much for this> They charge approx $85 inclusive of shipping for qty 100; 500mg tablets (or 50 grams). <Yeeikes! And oh my! This is a BUNCH of material> I will execute the suggested protocol of 20mg/l (or 3,780 mg for 50 gallons) on day 1, followed by 50% water change 7 days later and redose of 10mg/l (or 1,890 mg/50G) repeated 2 more times after that (a total of 4 dosings). I also understand the lighting should be kept off for the entire 1 month of treatment. <Yes... thank you for this as well. Fellow WWM Crewmember ScottV is visiting and we were just talking about the photosensitivity of this compound> Should I at least keep a ceiling light turned on for 10-12 hrs per day? <I would, yes> I will certainly let you know how effective this treatment was for me in approx 7 weeks (it takes up to 3 weeks for the CP tablets to be sent, since they are coming from a pharmacy in India). <I see...> In the meantime (3 weeks or so till dosing begins), beyond good husbandry of constant water changes (with siphoning bare bottom) and smart feedings (with Selcon and / or Garlic), is there anything I need to do, to give these guys the best chance of survival? <Mmm... I would not change anything here really> They do not appear to be "sick" beyond the obvious exterior visual signs of parasites. Meaning, they are all eating vigorously, they are not going to the surface, they are not breathing rapidly, or swimming erratically (beyond occasional attempts to scratch themselves on PVC), etc. The only one I am a bit concerned about is the PB Tang - his tail seems to be regenerating, but is still missing a good 20% of volume. I am attaching a picture (this time MaxiJet 1200 with venturi attachment turned off, so air bubbles not present in pix). Lastly - I appreciate the use of CP to treat Ich seems to be a fairly new practice, and therefore there may still be some unknowns, including long term affects, etc, but I was hoping you may have input to this question: can CP be used for incoming stock in QT as a prophylactic measure? <Mmm, I don't know this, or much else re CP either... I want to be clear, honest... as always... and state that I have no (zip, zero) experience with this material... And my current gung-ho attitude may be misleading others... I had just read some accounts, including in the new disease tome by Bob Goemans and Lance Ichinotsubo... and am hopeful... The cpd. is tried and true in terms of efficacy with humans...> For guys like me that clearly can't distinguish the tell tale signs of Ich (even after 4+ wks of QT on all incoming stock) would the use of this medication possibly help avoid a future infestation of MDT? As I am sure you can personally appreciate, and have heard a 1000 times over from your dedicated readers, no one wants to ever have to battle something like this more than once...... Thanks again for your time, experience, passion and dedication to helping your fellow aquarists! Sincerely, Jim <Again, my ongoing thanks to you Jim... please do relate your further experiences here. Cheers, Bob Fenner>

Re: ich? copper not curing it if so - possibly Brooklynellosis?   1/11/09 Bob - hotmail appears to be garbling this ethread pretty badly, but hopefully below is not needed to support this question as it only requires yes or no: The Chloroquine Phosphate tablets arrived from the pharmacy in India yesterday. My question is - should I remove the carbon filled filter media from top filter during treatment? <Yes> I don't have a skimmer or any other form of filter (except 3 sponge filters) in this 50G hospital tank. Thanks and I'll let you know how this works for me in 4 weeks. <Thank you> Jim PS - I lost the power blue tang to this "super ich" strain a few days ago. The rest of them seem fine though. I started the "no light" part of this treatment a couple days ago, just to see how they would behave / react to feedings, etc. They seem very skittish with no light, but did eat all the food I put in (from bottom of tank as opposed to how they normally come right to feeding site at top of tank). Not sure how this lack of light will affect them for 1 month? <As long as there is some outside light the fishes will be fine... there are meteorological events that make it very dark underwater, sometimes for weeks at a time, in the wild> Sounds like many other hobbyists have done this previously, so I guess they will be fine. <Yes. Steady on Jim. BobF>

Ich Treatment/Quarantine Cleaning 11/17/08 Hi folks, <Elsie.> Well, it's been two weeks since I tried to do a 100% water change on the QT tank and I guess it didn't work because I think I see spots on the blue tang and the Sailfin tang. So frustrating! <Tis frustrating.> Should I try the copper again for two weeks, or should I try hyposalinity? Quick Cure? <Do a Google search re Chloroquine phosphate on WWM and the web. Just safer, less toxic, this is the stuff to use here. It can be hard to find, the "in the know" LFS now carry it, otherwise do call a vet or check the web. One source: http://www.spectrumchemical.com/retail/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=Chemicals&product%5Fid=6647185. Most chemical supplies will have this too. Dose at 10mg/L.> Thanks in advance Elise <Welcome, Scott V.>

Re: Ich Treatment/Quarantine Cleaning 11/17/08 Scott, Thanks so much for your reply. <Welcome.> I have never heard of the stuff before. <Many...most have not.> I've been glued to my computer digesting all the FAQ's on the subject. A couple of things I'm wondering if you could clear up for me: Why Chloroquine Phosphate as opposed to quinine sulfate? <They are completely different compounds.> The quinine sulfate seems readily available from that phispharm place. The link to spectrum you provided asked me to submit a form, wanted to know the name of my organization, etc. <A pain, just one source.> I will try calling some local vets. <Some will know, others will not. Keep chemical supply houses in mind too. A quick explanation of what you are doing may be necessary.> Will the stuff have any effect on biological filtration? <Supposedly not, I do have my doubts, though have not quantified them.> I read that person's post about dosing 20ppm then waiting a week, doing 50% percent change, dosing 10ppm, repeating three more weeks. I am still combating ammonia, doing daily water changes. I guess I'd have to redose with each water change? <Yes, prorated of course.> Could get pricey, no? <Comparative to other treatment and depending on the source it could, but it works!> Thanks for your assistance, Scott, I'm very anxious to try this chemical, as I do feel that my tangs suffer in the copper. <They do.> Elise <Scott V.>

Re: Chloroquine Phosphate Use 11/20/08
Hello again Scott, I hope you won't mind me troubling you again with a couple more questions.
<Hello Elsie, not at all.>
I have ordered some Chloroquine phosphate from fishchemical.com.
<Great resource! Thank you for this.>
I am starting to get nervous about using a chemical I can't test for.
<I know the feeling, no practical method for the home aquarist.>
The only procedure that I've been able to find on how to use the stuff is the one described by a hobbyist on WWM's FAQ's: Start with double dose of 20mg/L, after a week 50% water change and add 10mg/L, after a week 50% water change and add 10mg/L, after a week 50% water change and add 10mg/L one last time. Is this what you would recommend, or would you do 10mg/L from the beginning, or a different procedure entirely?<The basic procedure is fine, but I would start with the 10mg/L dose. I have heard of some using the 20mg/L initially, but the lower dosage is tried and true.>Do I need to keep treatment going for a month?<I would, is the recommended protocol.>I think I will be doing water changes pretty frequently because of ammonia, I will have to carefully calculate how much CP to add, yes?<Yes.>If my math is right, I would want 757mg for my 20 gallon tank (20 gallons=75.7 liters, 10mg/L is 757), and if I did a 50% water change I would add 378mg. Do I have this right? <Yes.>Should I keep the aquarium light off during treatment?<An important point I neglected to mention previously. This compound is photosensitive. Do leave any lights off.>OK, this is more than a couple of questions (sorry), but after all the time, money, and energy I've put into saving these fish, I really don't want to make any fatal mistakes now.<Understood.>One last question (promise!) Is this medication is a good idea for any type of marine fish in need of treatment for crypt?<I have never heard of nor read about any contradictions to use with fish.>I thank you again, and my fish thank you as well!Elise <Welcome, do let us know how it goes. Scott V.>

Chloroquine Phosphate Source 10/28/08 Hi Crew, <Matt.> Thanks for all you do for the hobby! I have noticed recently on the 'dailies' that Bob is very excited about the prospects of Chloroquine phosphate as a treatment for Ich and the like. I was interested in finding out where this medication may be available for future reference, so I did a bit of googling (not sure that's a word lol) and found that it is the active ingredient in a medication named Avlocor (in the UK at least). Avlocor is an anti-malarial drug in 250mg tablet form and is obtainable without a prescription at the following link - http://www.chemistdirect.co.uk/avloclor-250mg-chloroquine-phosphate-tablets_1_3474.html -for a very reasonable price. Would this be a form of Chloroquine Phosphate that would be able to be utilised in the aquarium, and if so how much would an effective dose be? <It should work out fine. 10 mg/l would be the dose. I don't know what it cost you, but this can be had through many chemical supply companies, with many "in the know" LFS keeping some on hand.> Thanks for your hard work and commitment, Matt. <Welcome and thank you, Scott V.> <BTW, thank you very much for sharing your finds. Scott V.>

Re: Chloroquine phosphate Source 10/29/08 Hi Scott, <Hey there Matt.> Thanks for the response. The cost of these tablets is £1.89 (~$3.10) for a pack of 20, 250mg tablets. <Geez, pharmaceuticals cost sooo much here in the U.S.> If my math is correct this works out at 3.7 pence (~6 cents) per 100 mg. I don't know if this is expensive or cheap as I am having a hard time finding a chemical supplier who stocks it. <Tis cheap, for my area!> Maybe it's easier in the US (I'm in the UK). <Is prescription as a drug from my knowledge.> At 10mg/l recommended dosage, I presume the easiest way to dose it would be to dissolve a 250mg tablet in 25l of saltwater and use this for start-up water in a hospital tank and subsequent water changes. What do you think? <This could work, yes.> I also asked about its use, in case there were any other ingredients in this 'designed for human's' tablet that would mal-affect fish and/or inverts. Do you think there are? <Doubtful, more like fillers and binders.> How effective would you consider this as a treatment for Ich, in relation to copper or hypo? <Very effective in my experience, can be used along with hypo. Do realize this drug is photo sensitive, it will degrade with strong lighting.> Thanks for your time, Matt. <Welcome, Scott V.>

Re: Ich Treatment  10/17/08 I have read the FAQs on Chloroquine and I placed a order through an online company, but they called today and stated that they cannot ship the item to a residential address. Do you have any confirmed sites that can send the prescription without a Rx from a doctor? Any suggestions would be appreciated. <I'd try your local veterinarian. BobF>