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FAQs on Quinine Compounds Accounts of Use

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Related FAQs: Quinine Compound Med.s, Quinine Cpd.s/Med.s 2,
Quinine Science/Rationale/Use, Sources, Dosing/TreatmentTroubles/Fixing, & FAQs on: Medications/Treatments 1, Medications/Treatments 2, Medications/Treatments 3Antibiotics/Antimicrobials, Anthelmintics/Vermifuges/Dewormers, Copper FAQs 1, Organophosphates, Epsom/Other Salts, Formalin/Formaldehyde, Furan Compounds, Garlic, Homeopathic Remedies (teas, pepper sauce, other shams...), Malachite Green, Mercury Compounds/Topicals, Methylene Blue, Metronidazole, Sulfas, Treating Disease, Treatment Tanks, Medications/Treatments II, Treating Parasitic Disease, Using Hyposalinity to Treat Parasitic Disease, Garlic UseAntibiotic Use Marine Disease 1, Puffer Disease

Eel (Gymnothorax melatremus ) won't eat on CP for 3 weeks      5/13/17
I recently had to QT my Kole Tang, Harlequin Tusk, and dwarf golden Moray eel (Gymnothorax melatremus) due to a velvet outbreak. I've been treating the tank with 45mg/gal of CP. Everyone looks good. No more flashing and both fish are eating. The tank is BB with PVC fittings.
Now to the problem, my eel hasn't eaten (that I've seen) for 3 weeks.
<Might be the CP exposure; I'd stop it now>
He ate a big chunk of mixed food the day before the transfer, because I assumed that no one would eat until they settled in. He is VERY active. He swims all around the tank at night. During the day he hangs out in his PVC
pipe elbow. If I try to feed him, he sometimes takes a sniff and then seems like he's scared of it. I was wondering if it's the CP messing with his sense of smell because of the metal taste.
<Something like this>
At what point do I worry? I was thinking about putting the carbon in the filter and starting water changes. Is 21 days enough to kill velvet (or Ich, but I am confident that it was velvet)?
<I'd soak favored foods in appetite stimulant; such as SeaChem Appevite... and keep offering daily>
I've tried fresh oysters, mussels, squid, clam, etc. He seemed most interested in a silverside before the tusk stole it. In the DT he ate every 3-4 days. When he was swimming around the other night I tried to feed him
thinking he was hunting, but he just hid when I opened the lid.
<Morays, most eels of "good (index of) fitness, can go for long periods sans food. Don't give up. Bob Fenner>
Re: Eel (Gymnothorax melatremus ) won't eat on CP for 3 weeks      5/13/17

Thanks for the quick reply. I will add carbon tonight and start partial water changes with un-medicated water. My original plan was a 28 day CP treatment to be safe, but do you agree that a 21 day regimen was enough?
<I myself would stop now... another week may be more deleterious than advantageous. Bob Fenner>
Re: Eel (Gymnothorax melatremus ) won't eat on CP for 3 weeks      6/5/17

Greetings. I thought I would write to give you some good news.
<Ahh; always appreciated>

I know you usually only hear from people when things are wrong. I have been seeing things recently that led me to believe that my eel was eating. This morning, I finally saw him eat some food. I was so relieved to see that,
and now I feel much better about my quarantine and fallow period. I only hope that the 21 days was enough to eradicate the parasite that was on the fish.
I think it was because no one is showing any signs of flashing the way that they were before. Thanks for all the advice. You are a treasure to the hobby.
<Cheers Jas. Bob Fenner>

Mystery..... CP use; Velvet f's        5/4/15
Hey, I just wanted to pass a few things on to all of you and the huge following this website has.
<I/we thank you>
I have been treating with Chloroquine phosphate for about a month at double strength with no success.
<Time to change to summat else by twice>
I have lost 9 fish with the exception of an amazing Coris wrasse. My fear is that CP builds resistance extremely easy because this is now the third time velvet wiped my whole tank out. So, is it truly effective and the best treatment for this Dinoflagellate?
<Maybe not>
I no longer believe so. I've wasted thousands of dollars while keeping this drug as my only/best treatment for this parasite.
<Mmm; there are other treatments, even other quinine compounds>
With the combination of not being able to quarantine and failure to find a truly effective med for this parasite, I have walked
from the hobby..... For good.
<A shame>
Now, back to the or is wrasse, how is this possible?
<?... can't tell what you mean>
I mean, every other fish in this tank died within five days and we're breathing so fast I could barely see the gills moving. What is your take on this?
<Some sort of poisoning... perhaps hemolytic>
Should I remove him? Is this short-lived and he's just not showing signs of the parasite soon to die? Is he really resisting this
fierce monster?
<Again; can't tell; other than if you're stating this fish (Labrid) is still alive; it is likely resistant to whatever the source of mortality was here>
Thanks for your input and enabling me to "vent"
<Thank you for doing so. Perhaps a break from the hobby... a time to reflect, AND consider preventative measures (dips, baths...) to disallow the introduction of the more-aggressive reef parasitic diseases. Bob Fenner>

Ich/Puffers and Hypo   2/21/15
Hey crew, thanks for doing what you do!
<A pleasure, honor and life-fulfilling to share>
Question, I see that you don't recommend hypo treatment for Cryptocaryon (SW "Ich"). In the case of Holocanthus puffers, copper treatment is suggested to be potentially very harmful.

I'm just doing the freshwater dip now and heading to the quarantine tank.
Was set to hypo, but if you don't recommend hypo, what would you recommend for Holocanthus that you would consider a safe, effective treatment?
<Chloroquine phosphate is best currently. Use the search tool on any page on WWM...>

I did do a search using some terms but didn't come up with something (probably just didn't do it right!)
Thanks very much,
Scott Goorland
<Welcome. Bob Fenner> 
Re: re: Ich/Puffers and Hypo       2/21/15

Bob as a ps- I know in my last note I went from the no hypo/copper to some level, but just trying to find something prophylactic till I get my hands on the right stuff.... Thanks so much again
<Figured, but thank you for this clarification. BobF>
Re: Ich/Puffers and Hypo       2/21/15

Bob, thanks so so much for your super fast reply! I've read your articles and books for what seems to be a very long time! (I was a U of Miami grad in the 90s from the Marine Science school, went a different direction but never left the love of it!) I've read up before on Chloroquine, hear super things about it. Your support of it is even referenced in a Pufferforum
post. I even was able to get some Dr G's which i soaked shrimp in and feed the puffer with it while I got the QT set. Of course, Dr. G's only provides an internal medication, and does not treat the external parasite in the tank. That would require dosing.
<?... the quinine does treat for external Protozoans>
The problem I've had is that I can't seem to find anyone that carries it.
<... See here:
Most of the LFS's have never even heard of it. And the one that sold me the Dr G's, who swears that Chloroquine does wonders, doesn't carry it because he's just start up and dealing with start up costs. I can't quite understand why if it's as effective as I've read, it isn't fully commercialized.
<Meh... newer tech; the regulations... expense of start ups; lack of momentum...>
I'm going to see if I can find it somewhere, I haven't had much success on the web either. Any thoughts on where to find a product?
The LFS guy is trying to order some for me from a place in Gainesville, FL (we're in West Palm Beach) if he can. But he says it will be until Thursday before he could get any in. (he did say the market for this should open up, in his opinion it's been limited to commercial operations).
In the meantime I was going to try one of two options to get things going for the puffer. I dipped him in fresh water last night on the way to the QT for 10 min.s. 'Most' of the Crypto came off. He's swimming happily in the QT and begging for food. (note, all the other scaled fish will be placed in a separate QT and copper dosed, and the DT left fallow for 6 weeks). I am considering starting either a hypo treatment combined with a daily formalin dip and daily 50% bottom vacuumed water changes; or a half dose Cupramine regime, which I've read can be effective against crypto and if slowly dosed up correctly is safe for puffers (of course, keeping a close eye on levels and behavior to make sure). Any thoughts on these as
prophylactic while waiting for a Chloroquine supply?
Thanks again,
Scott Goorland
Re: Ich/Puffers and Hypo       2/21/15

Got it! Fish Pharm CP. Not cheap but worth it! Will keep extra on hand (and thus also support the market growth!) Do you have dosing instructions on WWM?
If so I can do a search, or I can contact fishPharm. Will also look at that NLS Ich Shield Powder, seems to contain chloroquinine as a dip. Re your question of why I mentioned Dr G's for internal, what I meant to say (I probably could have said better) is as I understand it, the product works on the fish itself (internally and externally), but not on the tank water in the QT where the crypto will still remain unless I somehow treat that as well?
<Don't understand this statement... but quinines are not effective on free-swimming and off-host intermediates as far as I'm aware. B>
Thanks again for all you do Bob
Re: Ich/Puffers and Hypo

Hoping to help spread the word, here's another supplier I found, no word on quality:
50-63-5 | Chloroquine diphosphate salt, 98% |
N4-(7-Chloro-4-quinolinyl)-N1,N1-dimethyl-1,4-pentanediamine diphosphate
salt | J64459 | Alfa Aesar| Alfa Aesar
| 50-63-5 | Chloroquine diphosphate salt, 98% | N4-(7-Chlo...Hazard
Statements ...
| View on www.alfa.com
<Thanks. B>
Re: Ich/Puffers and Hypo       2/21/15

As I understand it, I can treat the fish with CP foods, but even with treatment if the off host intermediates are still in the water, unless I eradicate the off host forms as well, they'll just keep attacking the host.
If quinines don't treat off host intermediates, won't the problem just continue as a cycle until I find some way to treat those as well? Scott
<A few approaches can work here: Moving hosts to non-infested systems serially... in actual practice, IF one is dealing w/ a single (not multiple, over-lapping) generations of Protozoans, eradicating those on the host fishes generally effects a system cure. Reducing the numbers and viability of parasites off-host can be done in numerous ways... B>
Re: Ich/Puffers and Hypo       2/21/15

Now that is great! Looking forward to the employment of the method! Thanks
again for all. Scott G.
<Ah, welcome. BobF>
Re: Ich/Puffers and Hypo        3/1/15

Hi Bob, the tank transfer method with a FW dip in between seems to be working well for the porcupine puffer
<Ah, good>
, no new spots showing up, about to move to the third transfer (trying to keep it every three days for four switches, with daily water changes in the tanks). Two completely matching systems that each get washed down and left dry for a day before resetting. Cutting the dip as it's been heavy on the stress (for him and me watching him!). Slowly lowering SG down to 1.016
for his comfort. Got NLS Ick Shield Powder on hand in case after the fourth switch I need to try to move to Chloro-Q treatment. (Got word that major shipments of CP have been moved to Asia due to a new Malaria outbreak).
<Yikes; this ancient human nemesis still kills more than a million people /year>
He's eating well. That said, he has a cloudy eye and lethargy. I'll try to boost his immune system with a food soak in Selcon or something similar, but I also am considering dosing an antibiotic. A search on WWM indicates Kanamycin is the favorite, but it's not carried locally. I'm going to express order some, but is there another antibiotic you recommend that may
be more available?(assuming you recommend one at all?)
<I don't; really... though Furan compounds are a fave for extended baths>
I read on WWM that Erythro isn't preferable for salt bacteria infections.
Can't seem to find anyone locally that has anything as a broad spectrum.
Scott G.
<Do look for a cheapy e-download of Ed Noga's "Fish Disease; Diagnosis and Treatment"... You'll enjoy, benefit.
Bob Fenner>

Re: Ich/Puffers and Hypo        3/3/15
Thanks for the book tip, I'll make sure to pick that up asap! (haven't found a cheap version yet, looking, but I'm not too concerned even if I can't, seems worth the investment!).
<.... ?! Just took a look....
I thought somehow the Kindle vers. was ten dollars... it's 84.49 US!!! Even the first edition is too much money used>
Unfortunately the porcupine puffer again has gone a bit downhill. He was really energetic and perking up until the tank switch with the dip in between. He didn't react well to the new tank at first, jumping around seemingly trying to get out. Once he calmed down, and ever since, he's been very listless.
<Patience here>

Pale. I don't see any more crypto spots on his skin, but his eyes have cloudy spots in both now. He's also every so often swimming and turning on his side, and trying to push his side around his gill area into whatever object is beneath him, or the tank bottom. Then he'll remain in a back corner facing away for lengths of time. I halted the tank changes, did a water change last night, raised the temp up 2 degrees from 76 to 78. At this point I'm concerned he needs some form of meds asap.
(also thinking there may be shock symptoms from the salinity switch from fresh to salt again? The dip was at matching pH and temps). He did eat today (vitamin enhanced). To be on the cautious side I dosed a slightly below recommended dose of KanaPlex, concerned that I needed to do something asap. But I'm thinking perhaps the crypto is there but I'm not seeing
anything more than his eyes? And perhaps I should do a water change and start dosing the NLS Ick Shield Powder, which indicates a quinine component. I'd do both since I don't know if it's either, but I don't know that I can mix those meds.
<Time going by. B>
Re: Ich/Puffers and Hypo
Yep those are the prices I found as well. but honestly, if you think that's the best out there to help, it's worth to me.
<Mmm; did see one (I think first ed., for $47.50) on Jim Foshey's site last night: Not searchable; so just call him:
Doing my best to stay patient... Keeping up with daily water changes. Only dropped SG slightly to 1.020.
<A thousandth per day raising back up.... can be dropped precipitously>
Temp at 77. Antibiotic seemed to help at first but now not much more. Of course its only been a day.... He's still looking a bit rough, eating, but still has white spots on eyes and listless and when he does he keeps turning on his side and pushing down into the tank bottom. Now I may be seeing why. Instead of white spots, now he's developing brown spots. You can see in the attached photos of yesterday vs. today, across the front of his face between the eyes the brown spots developed between yesterday and today. I now notice it at least seems to be more present elsewhere, and there's one above and behind his right eye that is a small bump of the same color that may be a sore, but hard to tell yet. Any idea on what could be going on?
<Quinine burned. BTW, do NOT send us 11 meg pix files... a few hundred Kbyte is our limit. Bob Fenner>
Thanks much Bob. Scott G.

Chloroquine phosphate.... ineffectual     2/17/15
Hey everyone! I just treated my tank with CP exactly three days ago today and I'm still exhibiting signs of the parasite. Either my fish were infected with ich or velvet, not sure. Is this normal? Wouldn't 72 hours be enough to kill it off?
Thanks so much
<Other factors... real concentration of the CP, other absorptive materials, effects? Where's the data JS?
Bob Fenner>
Re: Chloroquine phosphate....      2/17/15

Treated 1/8 teaspoon per ten gallons. So, it isn't possible that over time (more than 3 days) that the parasite will die off?
<Yes; should have. DO read the archives on WWM re CP... Several people report sub-par product... IF you didn't see some effects on your fishes they did NOT receive a physiological dose. Don't write; READ. BobF>

Marine Velvet / Ich and Chloroquine/Hypo Treatment
Dear WMM Crew,
I wanted to share an experience and get your guidance, in hopes that this might help out others as well as myself.
<Please do>
For the last 9 months or so I've been trying to get my 370 angel/butterfly tank off the ground, but I've been battling some issues with what appears to be Ich and Marine Velvet (I purchased a microscope, and though it is a bit difficult to tell for certain, it appears to resemble the slides I've seen on your site and in books.) I had followed proper QT procedures both for the initial introduction, and also for subsequent fallow periods (I have about 250 gallons of QT in 5 separate tanks, 2 times I've removed all fish from DT and put them in QT with Copper for 8-10 weeks, and once with Chloroquine for the same period), but despite this I've still run into issues a week or two upon reintroducing some of the fish into the DT.
<Happens... you may well have entrenched protozoan issues in your main/display... that are "surfacing" in/on new introductions>
So I got my hands on some Quinine and also Chloroquine from National Fish Pharmacy and Fishman Chemical respectively, as I seemed to have a strain of Ich/MV that was copper resistant
<This is also been conjectured for a few years; make that decades>

(I tried both Cupramine and CopperSafe separately, used multiple test kits to ensure proper dosage &c.) The copper seemed to hide the symptoms, but once I would remove it after say 30 days, the symptoms would return-and since I have angel's and butterflies, I didn't want to continue using copper.
I've established that I CAN rid the Ich/MV from my QT by using Chloroquine, as the fish don't show any signs of symptoms after the treatment in the QT (I have several QT's, and when I would remove the medicine with Polyfilter or Carbon, I wouldn't see new symptoms even after 3 weeks of no meds, something that I always saw with Copper within about 5 days). But even after letting my DT go fallow for up to 10 weeks, I don't think that the parasites were completely eliminated as symptoms would return to the fish about a week or two after re-introduction (I would only put a few back in, not all of the fish), and would quickly spread to epidemic proportions even with 120W of UV which has new bulbs, and appropriate flow per Emperor Aquatics.
So now onto the question(s).
I've removed all inverts / corals from my DT, which is primarily a FOWLR tank. Even when dosing Chloroquine in the DT, it seems that I still have not eliminated the pests entirely. The difference is perhaps that I do have Live Rock and Sand in there. I've been reading on some various forums, and also in Ed Noga's book, and he recommends using Chloroquine + Hypo (at about 12-13 ppt) for 30 days to really pack a 1-2 punch on any issues with Ich/Velvet. I've personally never done Hypo before, and I wanted to get your opinion on if you would recommend this approach-or something else? I am fully confident that I can carry out the protocol properly, and have a refractometer, and also water test kits to ensure the I do have a few red sea/generally sensitive fish, but they haven't minded the treatments so far and their adults so they seem to be pretty hardy. Just wasn't sure if doing Hypo would be dangerous with them?
<Not as much as the parasitic infestation... in other words: no>

While I can certainly catch all of the fish out and move them to QT's, I'm worried that at this point that might be more traumatic then treating them in the DT, especially since they have so much more room within that tank than in the QT's, and also the DT is well established with a biofilter, so there is 0 ammonia / nitrite, and I keep nitrates < 10 with water changes, which is harder to keep on top of with 5 QT's that will be more heavily stocked if I remove all the fish from the DT.
My preference at this point would be to treat the fish in the DT (basically as a large scale QT), and wait to reintroduce any inverts for at least 6 months or so. But if you feel that this is the wrong approach, I can certainly pull all the fish out again, I've just not been able to rid it in the past, but perhaps I wasn't waiting long enough.
As a side note to your readers, I used both Quinine and Chloroquine. I noticed that the Quinine appeared to be much harsher on the fish than Chloroquine.
<Yes; generally so>
When I would dose Quinine, the fish would turn dark, some would breath heavily, and most would lose appetite for a few days, even had a couple of fatalities with smaller fish. I never noticed any such symptoms with Chloroquine, and they seem to be equally effective in my QT's. Also note, snails seem to handle this treatment (even long term) just fine (when I've treated in my DT). I have several different kinds, and haven't noticed any fatalities. I did test with shrimp starfish and snails, and they do not handle this treatment and will quickly perish. Same goes with Coral, for the treatment, my suggestion is to remove all coral and non-crab inverts and put them in an unmedicated tank if treating your DT.
<Yes; for sure>

No urgency for the response on this holiday weekend, just trying to plan my next steps. I have Chloroquine in the DT right now, and it seems to be keeping the parasites at bay, but not 100% eliminating them. I spoke to Fishman, and they recommended rather than just doing a single dose every 7-10 days, to do daily doses at ΒΌ strength after the initial dose to ensure that the medication does not fall below the efficacious threshold.
<I concur>
I'm 3 days into that approach, and was thinking if this doesn't work then I need to try another approach.
Best Regards and Thanks much as always!
<Again; thank you for sharing. Bob Fenner>
Re: Marine Velvet / Ich and Chloroquine/Hypo Treatment

Thanks so much Bob for the lightning fast response!
I just wanted to make one edit to my previous post. I accidentally said that snails tolerated the Quinine/Chloroquine treatments, but this was exactly what I meant not to say. The previous post said ". Also note, snails seem to handle this treatment (even long term) just fine (when I've treated in my DT)". However this should have read: ". Also note, <<Crabs>> seem to handle this treatment (even long term) just fine (when I've treated in my DT). " Just want to make sure that anyone reading this understands that Crabs and Not snails tolerate the treatment. Snails, Bristleworms, Starfish, Shrimp, and Corals will perish.
I will keep you and everyone posted with my progress (or lack thereof) with the treatment/outcome.
<Thank you for this clarification>
Best Regards,
<And you, BobF>

Hydroxychloroquine <report on use in stead of CP)... & Supposed Protozoan infestation appearance w/ various fish hosts     6/17/12
Good morning!
It has been about 4+ years since I had to treat any fish for parasites, so I was fascinated to find the references for the use of Chloroquine Phosphate now.  Maybe I missed it, but I don't remember seeing this at all a few years ago.
<A relatively new/er treatment>
 In my Hospital Tanks, I am treating a parasite that I believe NOT to be Ich and possibly not Velvet either. I could be wrong about this. It was introduced by small Yellow Clown Gobies, which did not survive.  I do QT all new arrivals, but had read recommendations for a short QT of these fish, due to poor survival rates in QT.  Unfortunately, the short QT didn't work out for me.   I also lost a Gold Bar Maroon Clown.  Once truly infested, this parasite moved quite rapidly, but did not have the typical appearance of Velvet or Ich (to me).
<Look up "Microscope" use on WWM... I have an olde light transmission type AND a QX (really neat and inexpensive) one w/in reach of me here>
  I might have thought the Maroon Clown had Ich, except that the Clown Gobies really looked so different.  Also, I do think the rapid progression was not consistent with Ich, and the spots are quite large. 
<The spots are not the parasite/s... but reaction sites... same as diseases of humans and other animals, plants... quite differing appearance/symptomology wise>
Technically, the Clown Gobies had one minor skin change for 2 days with no other symptoms, then nothing for 2 weeks.  During those two weeks, they ate well and seemed fine.  No itching, scratching, flashing, twitching, breathing funny.... nothing.  Then literally overnight they were covered with spots, and they died within 48 hours (despite/because of? copper).
  The Maroon Clown had a similar pattern.  Minor skin change for 2 days, then nothing, then rapid progression.  I am including a picture of my second GB Maroon Clown, in hyposalinity before copper.
<Mmm, does "look" like Crypt>
 Thankfully, he has now recovered.   I did try to look at scrapings of the deceased clown under my microscope at work, but the magnification was only 100X, and it was difficult to see.
<Ahh; need a few hundred magnification>
 Maybe I saw some tiny oval-ish parasites, but I couldn't really tell. 
Soon, I will invest in/find a better microscope to use at home.  
>Ah good... the QX or similar model...<
I did see a picture of a Yellow Clown Goby with spots similar to mine (http://fishfantasy.blogspot.com/) - the spots on that fish were attributed to velvet.  I think these spots are much larger than what I would expect from velvet,
<Agreed... and the fish didn't die almost immediately...>
 but I do not have enough experience looking at sick fish to really feel like I am a good diagnostician yet. Perhaps you could lend your opinion? 
Many chat boards call everything "Ich".   I've been running SW tanks for 10 years, but I haven't treated/seen enough sickness to feel confidently knowledgeable.
<I've seen a good deal, written and given talks... including the last two years of NEU's Fish Health Conferences>
  Because of it's potential rapid action, and already losing fish, while waiting for the medication to come I tried multiple different treatments. 
Hyposalinity, I believe, has been ineffective.
<Usually is>
  Sterilizing tanks and transferring between tanks was not effective.  I only tried one formalin dip (on the already very sick and now deceased GB Maroon Clown) as a desperate measure (unsuccessfully).  I do think that copper was helpful, but I really don't like using copper.
<Too narrow efficacy for many cases, circumstances>
 I also apparently did not have the correct copper test for the Cupramine I was using, so I didn't feel comfortable maintaining that treatment - but I had to do something to avoid losing my fish.  I was able to use a couple of doses as a temporary "fix" and the fish clearly improved.   As soon as the level dropped slightly from a small water change, I saw symptoms returning.
 I did order a different copper test online, but was stuck waiting for its arrival.  At any rate, after researching current treatments, I ordered Hydroxychloroquine Phosphate through my Medical Office because the price was a LOT less expensive ($15 for a bottle of 100 tablets, 250mg each) than Chloroquine Phosphate.  I received this a couple of days ago and began to treat my fish.  I am also still (of course) slowly raising the Hospital Tanks out of hyposalinity.  It seems as if the Hydroxychloroquine is doing its job.  The fish look great.    As far as I can tell, in people the dosing is similar between the two medications, with Hydroxychloroquine requiring possibly 80% of the Chloroquine dosing.  I researched a number of articles involving human use, and I could see no reason to avoid the Hydroxychloroquine.
<Me neither>

 In some instances, it was suggested that this version was somewhat less toxic to the eyes.  It is, at times, used in people long-term to treat Rheumatoid Arthritis, and it seems like the Retinal Toxicity is likely an effect from long-term use. Of course, this information cannot be directly transferred to fish, but it is at least a place to start.   It seems like it is used interchangeably with Chloroquine Phosphate for the treatment of malaria, in areas of the world that are not known to be resistant to this drug.  I am writing to ask you if you are aware of any reason that I should not be using this as an alternative to CP?
<I am not aware of such contraindication>
 And also to mention that it might be a less expensive alternative that others could consider as well.
Blessings -
Lynn M
<Thank you for this report Lynn. Bob Fenner>

Acanthurus coeruleus with skin issues? 6/15/10
Greetings to all at WWM!
<Howsit Jamie?>
I've been treating my FOWLR display tank with Chloroquine phosphate since April 30th for my quinine resistant strain of C. irritans. The fishes have all appeared to tolerate this medication very well and no more ich after one
week of Chloroquine.
I've continued this treatment as I learned from Dr. Fishman that this medication can be dosed continuously in the tank as a preventative for further reinfection.
<Mmm, I would not do this... with CP or other med.>
My question is in regards to the Atlantic Blue tang, who shows these "blotches" only at certain times when his skin turns a darker color.
<Just "stress"... your pic shows a very nice specimen>
They are not raised or fuzzy. Behaviorally, he is a little more isolative, and appetite has been decreased. One of his eyes had some cloudiness but this seems to come and go.
I am wondering if this is due to Chloroquine sensitivity, or is this a secondary infection.
<Much more the former likely>
My tank parameters: ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 5, pH 8.2. He is the only fish showing this.
Thank you for your time and providing this wonderful site to educate and enlighten!!!
<Thank you for sharing! BobF> 


Re: Acanthurus coeruleus with skin issues? and CP f'    6/16/10
Hello Bob!!!
Thanks for your reply!
I'm sure you don't remember as you get thousands of e-mails, but you have a "baby" picture of him when he was the size of a silver dollar - when I sent a picture of him with "black dots" where the ich fell of from the original
quinine sulfate treatment! He has grown to be four inches big now, bigger than my Powder Blue tang.
I don't think he would still be with me if it was not for your guidance and your web site!
Thank You Thank You Thank You!
PS: The Chloroquine phosphate treatment will end in six weeks as I was wanting to make sure that I have three months with no signs of C. irritans before stopping. I believe that I got the quinine resistant strain by stopping too soon.
<I think it (the Crypt) is long gone. Cheers, BobF>
Re: Acanthurus coeruleus with skin issues?   6/16/10
Sorry to go on and on... BUT
How do you recommend I "stop" the treatment?
<Just stop adding the material>
Would you...
1. Just start routine weekly water changes of 15-20%
<Oh yes>
2. Turn on the skimmer
<I would>
3. Add carbon
4. All of the above
5. Do nothing, the Chloroquine will "self destruct" after five seconds...
<Oh! It already has if you haven't been re-adding it. B>

Re: Acanthurus coeruleus with skin issues?   6/16/10
G-day Bob,
Just for future reference...
I know that we dose Chloroquine at 40 mg per gallon. I've read that you "re dose" every 7-10 days, but as I was waiting for my treatment, I've done some additional reading and learned that Chloroquine "is very stable in solution"
and I've spoken with Dr. Fishman regarding this and he shared that you don't have to re dose. At one point, I had 22.8 grams total in my 190 gallons of water which is three times the normal treatment dose and that was when all
my fishes appetite decreased. So...I guess in a round about way, if I ever need to treat the fishes for crypt, how would I dose the Chloroquine to begin with, would I re dose and if so, how often, and for how long?
Thanks a Million!
<Thank you for this valuable input. Am going to be "splitting up" the Quinine cpd. FAQs today likely. B>

Re: Treatment Resistant Cryptocaryon irritans   2/28/10
Greetings Bob and crew at WWM.
After reading your e-mail and contacting Dr. Aukes from National Fish Pharmacy. I re-thought my past treatment with quinine sulfate and more recently with formalin and realized that I am the reason neither medications worked. This led me to acknowledge the need to share my experience so that others may learn from my mistakes.
<Ah good>
Going back several months ago, after the quinine sulfate did not APPEAR to work in treating the C. irritans infection brought by the Achilles tang.
There were actually three issues at the time that somehow, I lumped into one which was the thought that quinine did not work. In reality there were three very separate issues which led to my failure and poor decision making, not
to mention illogical thinking were:
1) The Achilles was not eating in the quarantine and the only fish showing ich. No good nutrition intake leading to the poor immunity of the fish to begin with.
2) By the 8th week for all my fishes to be in a 55 gallon not previously cycled hospital tank, they were starting to show a lot of stress: flame angel exhibited darkening of facial markings like a red mustache, my wrasses hovering near the surface and loosing their appetite and looking like a film was covering their usually brilliant colors. Stress due to daily fluctuation of ammonia, nitrate, nitrite, and not to mention the daily 20+ gallon water changes. Stress leading to poor immunity.
3) I was pressured for time as I was going on holiday for two and a half weeks. My stress, causing me behave more erratically and making bad decisions. Loosing patience and losing sight of what exactly what I was supposed to be doing.
Now, more recently with all my 37 mL every 48 hours dosing of formalin - this one is easy. Mr. Fenner made several comments that my formalin is somehow being absorbed or being taken out of solution. You must have a
magic ball Mr. Fenner! I stupidly left my protein skimmer ON! I was cleaning it every other day and still not recognizing I should have turned it off.
That was why I was not killing ANYTHING!
So on Wednesday night (three nights ago) I performed a 40 gallon water change and dosed my display tank with six and a half teaspoon of quinine sulfate which is 1/4 tsp per 10 gallon. I've read on WWM some conflicting
information on whether quinine will be absorbed or bound by substrate. Dr. Aukes from NFP said NO.
<To some degree he is wrong, materials associated w/ substrate... do so...>
I've turned off my UV sterilizer and my protein skimmer and I will do as told by Dr. Aukes - Treat once and leave in for 7 days. No parameter testing, water condition will be told by fish behavior.
I did note to Dr. Aukes that all my fishes' appetite have decreased since starting treatment and that they are seem more shy and even a little grumpy.
He advised that this is often observed and will continue as they are in treatment.
<We are in agreement here>
I also asked if I need to re dose every seven days for a total of 28 days for the life cycle of C. irritans and he said no - just one treatment.
<And here>
Three days into quinine sulfate treatment - my Powder blue and Kole tang are finally showing a dramatic decrease in bumps and spots. This is the first time in MONTHS that they are actually looking improved. I know I'm not out
of the woods yet, but I will keep my fingers crossed and keep following the advise of those wiser and more experienced.
Thank you Bob, for putting up with my endless e-mails and also to have the patience to point things out to me, even if I miss the "point" several times in a row.
<Clarity is pleasurable. I am satisfied that you have worked out your situation>
I hope to share good news with you in a few weeks...before I go to the Great Barrier Reef.
Thank YOU!
<And you. BobF>

Re: Treatment Resistant Cryptocaryon irritans... Using Quinine... IN trtmt. sys., NOT DTs   3/1/10
Hello Bob,
I hope you had a wonderful weekend!
<Asi asi>
As I read and re-read our correspondence, I remembered a question that I had forgotten to ask earlier.
Why is it that I only have to treat with quinine sulfate once in my display tank for eradication of C. irritans?
From everything I've read regarding when ich is susceptible to medication is during it's free swimming theront phase.
<Only w/ metals, dyes...>
From my observation, quinine sulfate also appears to work by being absorbed into the blood stream of fishes and then the attached C. irritans take the quinine in while feeding on the fish which causes them to die - that is why I observed seeing the black spots on my fishes where the ich was attached 2-3 days after I start quinine treatment. These black spots are not observed on my fishes without quinine treatment.
It seems that as new theronts excyst from my substrate I would need to make sure that the quinine is still present in the water and also in the fishes?
<Is so to a degree... Again, hence the S.O.P. of treating in a separate tank w/ no substrate, live rock... and allowing the infested system to go fallow>
So how would that be if after a total of seven days I put carbon in therefore 24 hours then start my UV sterilizer and my protein skimmer?
<Not my advice, or suggested method of treatment. Again, this is posted over and over on WWM. I suspect you have Brian and I and WWM's advice mixed up here. Again, I would NOT treat in main/display tanks. BobF>
Thanks in advance!

Re: Question Regarding Ich and Brooklynella -- 03/20/10
I wanted to give you an update on the treatment of ICH on my Blue Tang in my display tank due to being out of town and not able to monitor the Treatment tank while I was gone. I administered the QS on Saturday afternoon (after removing carbon, and turning off UV, Skimmer, and lights), by Sunday there was an incredible reduction in the number of spots on the tang. I left Monday and returned late last night. My husband said the fish ate all week. The tang looks PERFECT, the spots are gone, his vibrant color has returned, and his appetite has not suffered at all. The goby has seemed a little less active, but I'm guessing the meds and lack of light might have something to do with that. I turned the lights on today before I fed and he was happily chasing down food as well. The tang has changed his behavior some in that he's now hanging out by the water return pipe, not in the flow, just hanging out behind the pipe. He does go back to the rocks to sleep during the night. He's active and swims a lot, I just hadn't seen him hang out up by the pipe prior to the ICH. He's not flashing or rubbing on anything anymore.
A couple of practical questions..
1) I'm planning to do a water change tomorrow. (1 week post addition of QS) Do I need to do a second week of treatment?
2) I use a Tidepool sump and my carbon is in a carbon pillow. I'd put a new one in right before removing it for treatment. I've had it soaking in freshwater during treatment. Is it safe to put it back in the tank, or could it be infested with ich, and should I just buy a new one?
<It could be infested. I'd replace it>
3) How long should I wait before returning the snails and shrimp? Is running carbon and skimmer enough or should I buy one of the other types of purifying filters first?
<A week or so after the chemical filtrant addition>
Thanks so much for the help, I'm so relieved that my Tang looks so amazing again. I hope I'm able to provide him a long and healthy life.
Thanks, Pam Speck
<Thank you for your input, update. BobF>

Re: Recommendation for fish illness, Crypt, Quinine trtmt. follow-up  1/20/10
Mr. Fenner,
I would like thank you for your support and give you an update on my fish treatment using Quinine Sulfate (QS).
<Thank you>
First, I quarantined my lawnmower blenny and mandarin in an 8 gallon system and my Tomini tang to a 24 gallon system. Both tanks were treated with 1/4 tsp of QS for every 10 gallons of water. I performed a water change twice a day to control ammonia as I didn't have/allow the biological filter to establish ahead of time. The water changes were treated with QS and bio-Spira at the time of each change (I did this after speaking with National Fish Pharmaceuticals about the half-life of QS and was told it does lose strength during treatment but the added 'fresh' mix during a water change would not harm the fish).
<Yes... and thank you for this reminder>
After the first treatment (7 days) all the Ich spots on the tang were gone but another problem showed itself, Hexamita.
I started the second treatment of QS on the two systems and also added Metronidazole to the tang's treatment (both are safely mixed and did not stress the fish or effect the biological filter).
Yesterday was the end of all treatments. I performed a 25% water change on both systems and added activated carbon to remove the remaining medication. All fish are doing great and will remain in quarantine for 3-4 more weeks for observation and to allow the display to stay fallow a total of 5-6 weeks.
<Outstanding. You have good discipline and a clear, sharp mind... Capacity for relating>
Thanks again for your support! I hope this information will be valuable to others
<Indeed it will; rest assured. Bob Fenner> 

Crypt help!!!! 3-26-09
Hi guys,
Love the website...I use it lots.
<It is superb...so do I>
Unfortunately, this time I have a question that I need a little more help with. I have a boxfish (Ostracion cubicus) with a really bad case of crypt....(I think).
<A better diagnosis than "I think" would be helpful>
I've had him for about 6 months and he's always been really healthy and happy.
<Good to hear, not an easy species to keep. I have an O. cubicus myself>
About a week ago, I went down to feed him, and found him absolutely covered in little white bumps. I've read all of the remedies for crypt on your site, but my problem is that I can't really use any of them because I also have a banded bamboo shark, a porcupine puffer, a spotted puffer, and a hermit crab in the tank.
<I also have a bamboo shark, cute when they're little, but fast growers and they need a big tank!>
I know that if he gets stressed he can release a deadly toxin, which is why I am unsure about moving him into a quarantine tank.
<All the more reason to do so>
I have noticed a couple spots on the puffers, but they aren't nearly as bad. I've been treating the tank with Ich cure for a few days, but he just seems to be getting worse.
<What are the ingredients in "ich cure"? I recommend ceasing treatment and performing a large (50% +) water change>
I've also been adding some garlic in with his food, but that doesn't seem to be helping either.
<Garlic isn't a cure for anything>
He's still happy, and eating great, he just looks terrible all covered in bumps. I guess my question is Do I risk moving him into a QT tank, or is there some other treatment that is safe for the shark and the puffers? Any help you could give me would be appreciated... I'm getting worried about the little guy.
<I'm not sure how big your shark, puffers, and boxfish are, but treatment in a QT tank is always recommended. If this is not feasible (water quality could definitely be an issue here) then your only option will be to treat the entire display tank. Your "miracle cure" in either case is going to be the medication quinine sulfate, available from www.nationalfishpharm.com.
At the risk of sounding like a salesperson (I'm not, just a fan!), this is the most effective crypt medication I've ever used, and is safe with puffers and sharks. Order it, pay extra for overnight shipping, and treat asap. Quinine sulfate is toxic to molluscs, and other invertebrates to a lesser extent>
Thanks in advance!!
<M. Maddox>

Crypt help!!!! Part II 4-10-09
Hello again,
<Evening - sorry about the slow reply>
So I ordered the "miracle cure", and began treating the tank.
<I'm not sure I would call Quinine Sulfate a 'miracle cure', but it is very effective>
Its been 3 days and the problem only seems to be getting worse. The boxfish is so covered in white bumps that you can barely see his skin anymore.
<Time for a freshwater dip>
My porcupine puffer has also taken a turn for the worst. I noticed after I added the quinine sulfate that her eyes got all cloudy and she was bumping into things.
<Possible a secondary bacterial infection>
She also stopped eating.
<Common in ill puffers>
Today, her eyes are completely white, and she is laying on the bottom, breathing really hard. I have a feeling she isn't going to make it much longer.
<You should definitely move both of the fish into QT and treat with broad spectrum antibiotics in addition to the QS>
I have a hospital tank, but it is currently housing a panther grouper.
<Time for a second QT!>
I'm not sure what to do now....do I continue the treatments and water changes with the quinine sulfate, or do I set up a new hospital tank, wait for it to cycle, and move them all into there?
<The waste products can be negated with Amquel+ or Prime, this isn't the time to be worrying about anything except getting the fish into a treatment tank>
I have been using a UV sterilizer (I turned it off when treating with quinine sulfate as per the instructions on the bottle), but that doesn't seem to have helped either.
<Flow rate through the sterilizer?>
The shark and the dogface puffer still seem unaffected, but I feel uneasy about leaving them in a tank that is so sick. I've done a whole range of water tests and nothing is out of range, I don't know what to do next.... please help!!!!!
<Move all fish into a QT tank, treat with quinine and antibiotics, and leave your main tank fallow (fish-less) for at least 5 weeks>
<Good luck! Mike Maddox>

Thomas Roach Ick Omnibus, formaldehyde, quinine f's -12/11/08 Hello Mr. Fenner and others, <Thomas> Thought I would give you an update on my situation, as I'm hoping you are still familiar with it? Mainly to serve as a warning to others and emphasize the dire need for quarantining livestock, because once you get this resistant strain of Ick in your tank it is not coming out with ease? <Ah yes> We moved a couple of weeks ago and of course the fish still had Ick? I disposed of most of my sand bed to get to 1? or less for maintenance purposes, changed 100% of the water and still had the infestation. I treated it with a Formalin product similar to quick cure, which again reduced the Ick while the treatment was ongoing, but with this strain WHAT FORMALIN BASED MEDS SEEM TO DO is allow the remaining Ick to come back at much greater numbers and strength? why this is, I do not know but it has happened both times I have treated with the Formalin based products. <A useful observation, note> This treatment I have gone back to the Quinine Sulfate (by stock in Natl. Fish Pharm if they offer it, I'm funding the place :-) ), and I seem to be having better results completely by accident! In some foggy haze I quadrupled the original dose for this size tank somehow, and it seems as though it has proven to be more effective at a ridiculously high dose. After a 3 day period I did NOT do a partial as recommended and treated at regular dosage, and after the 2nd 3 day period I treated at 1 ½ times the recommended dosage. The fish, into day 8, show no signs of Ick, whereas they have in the past treatments. I'm not overly confident yet, but I'll post results as we go. If other hobbyists had any clue what I am dealing with, there would never be an email to you regarding skipping quarantine, and I cant stress it enough to your readers how much misery it can cause. Thomas Roach <Thank you for reports on this ongoing exercise. Bob Fenner>

Re: Ick-  12/11/08 Thanks, Bob... let me restress how TOUGH this is... to me far worse than Oodinium simply because you cannot get rid of it. I have the salinity at 1.017, <Has to be much lower... 1.012, perhaps under 1.010 to really mal-affect the Cryptocaryon... at this level... most of your fishes as well...> temp at 82, and water full of meds and it is still resistant! QT all your fish!!!!! This makes African cichlids look mighty tempting again. <Ah yes... or even Guinea Pigs!> On a side note, Quinine is quite effective at destroying Cyanobacteria... at least it had one pleasant result... gone with one dose. Thomas Roach <Silver linings... BobF>

Hurricanes, Ick, and the like... 10/16/08 Well, folks. Thought I'd tell you a story and present you with a new spin on and old issue and throw an idea at you. <Ok> First, the trials. I have written you in the past for advice for taking a tank through a power outage lasting several days, and due to Hurricane Ike, we had an opportunity to put this to test. I am glad to report that this was a success! Using a 6000 watt generator, I was able to run the filters for one to two hours every 5 to 6 hours to keep the tank 'breathing' (Also running refrigerator, freezer, TV on occasion, some box fans, and a window unit in the bedroom..). I am proud to say that I had cold beer throughout our outage. <There is something to this> but I digress. When the tank temp seemed to be creeping up a bit high, I would put a 2 liter bottle of ice in the sump while the filters were on, cooling the water a bit. After 5 days, we finally got power back, and all fish were alive and in good health. so it would seem. Not sure if it was the absence of lighting for 5 days, or the fluctuations in temperature, but the fish were stressed of course. and a single fish contracted Ick. Now, a quick recap is that we decided we had a 'subclinical' Ick infestation, which was fine as long as it stayed 'sub'. Months ago I had purchased an Atlantic Blue Tang, which has done just fine with it's tankmates. Those are a Passer Angel, Lunare Wrasse, Yellow Tang, Tomato Clown, two damsels, and a cleaner wrasse that has defied it's life expectancy. The ABT is the only fish now that has contracted Ick (of course it's present in the entire tank. why the other fish are so resistant, I could not tell you). <Previous good care, genetic heritage> I have been treating this tank with Quinine Sulfate. <Do try Chloroquine phosphate next time...> we went through an initial treatment, the Ick remained, we are now in day 5 of a 9 day treatment. I still have signs of Ick on the ABT in day five. Prior to treatment, I set up my 20 gallon tank and put as much LR as possible in there, along with a chocolate chip (been with me for years), a serpent, and sand sifting starfish, copepods, along with as many snails as I could find and remove. The quinine is quite effective on them, since unfortunately I had to remove a number of snails from the main tank after they were deceased and revealed. This 20 gallon tank will remain fallow for at least another two to three weeks (already been over two). I am beginning to wonder how effective this Quinine will be on the Ick remaining in the main tank. Basically, I have a 200g fish tank devoid of life, with the exception of a) the fish, b) the living bacteria in the rocks, and c) the Ick. Here's the dilemma. I am formulating a plan c ( the a. was the subclinical existence, the b. is the quinine). Copper is no option since we do not want copper absorbed in the rock and silicone, etc. I have purchased with dread a bottle of Quick Cure (formalin & Mal. Green) and it sits atop the tank leering at me, still in it's packaging. Long ago, I had used it with good results, then not knowing it's dark side. Here I am faced again with a possibility of using it. If I use it, I can get it out with carbon, water changes, and Polyfilters, I think. Tangs though, are sensitive to it, yes? <More so than other species... formalin is a general biocide... crosslinks peptides (longer versions of which are proteins)... all life> I've thought about dips/baths, but this is really pointless if there is Ick left in the tank. To fallow the tank would require another tank of great size to house these fish for another 4 to 6 weeks, again not an option, especially when you're looking at treating sensitive tangs with the same medications anyhow. So I am considering the Formalin at half strength, wondering if this would even be effective in a partial dose. <Mmm, no to partial dosing> Also, for your readers, I did use something I had written about a while back, ParaGuard by Seachem. I can only say that it is not effective with this 'resistant' strain of Ick I have. perhaps it would be in other circumstances. Thomas Roach <Thank you for the report Thomas. BobF>

Re: Hurricanes, Ick, and the like... 10/16/08 Chloroquine phosphate? Hmm.... I have never heard of this. Is there a common name for the product, or know where it's available? I'll do a search for it and see what I can find as well. <Search WWM re...> Would you recommend the Quick Cure as a course of action, and if so, any specific precautions in respect to my situation? <See WWM re Formalin and Malachite...> Thanks again, Bob. I don't get to write as often due to lack of problems, but I always enjoy the replies... Thomas Roach <BobF>

Re: Hurricanes, Ick, and the like...  10/17/08 Been reading... and reading... and reading. My wife is a Vet Tech and I'm having her ask the Doc if he has the Chloroquine Phosphate. I've been calling around to local LFS's and I can imagine the blank stares that accompany the vocal responses. One recommended something called Kordon's Ick Attack or some herbal remedy. What a poor bit of advice. I remember you asking one of your readers if they would want to treat their child with tea tree oil if sick, and I thought that was such a good analogy that I now tell people the same thing. I think that if her Doc can obtain the CP, I might give it a go, but I have no clue as to what form it would come in or what dose to administer... He's treated horses, dogs, sea lions, etc..., but fish? I don't know. <Mmm, there are a bunch of vet's that "cross over" to exotics, including aquatic animals... and Chloroquine IS the latest and greatest...> As for the Quick Cure, of course no previous situation matches mine exactly, but that is to be expected. <Look to the ingredients> It seems to be an effective treatment if administered carefully, I'm worried now about it's effect on the biological filter. <Destroys> There seem to be mixed opinions on the subject. And then, if you add one drop per gallon, but only do a 25% water change, wouldn't adding another drop per gallon for the next treatment overdose the medication? <Mmm, not likely... the ingredients... are quite transient... get "used up" quickly. B> Seems a bit risky if you ask me. Tonight I need to do a 25% water change and administer the last Quinine dose, so I have three more days to decide. I can tell that the Quinine does have some effect... without it, the tang has Ick every morning. I have not seen it, or at least seen it in great quantity, since the treatment began. I just wonder why it returns if the medicine kills it. <Mmm, a few poss. The intermediates are shielded most likely> Thomas Roach

More Re: Hurricanes, Ick, and the like... 10/28/08, 11/13/08 <<RMF>> Hello Mr. Fenner, <Bob is out away from the net for a bit. Scott V. with you here.> No resolve yet, but updates for you and results of things attempted... <Okay.> I went with the Quick Cure treatment, with much worry. I used daily for four days, one drop per gallon, monitoring water conditions and carefully observing the fish. Both tangs did fine through the treatment, and the ich disappeared for the four days. It did not kill the bio filter, either that or monitoring of the water conditions plus immediate water change after day four prevented any issues. <<Mmm... much more likely that either the bottle of QC was not potent or that the make-up of your water/system absorbed the principal ingredient (Formalin)>> However on day five, after rerunning the skimmer and carbon, the next day the ich returned worse than ever, again only on the Atlantic Blue Tang. <<More evidence of the above>> This was Saturday morning. I had one treatments worth of Quinine Sulfate left, which I administered immediately. (I have not as of yet located the Chloroquine Sulfate, my wife's Vet was not familiar with it.) <<Mmm, phosphate, not sulfate>> <A treatment of growing popularity, though still hard to find. Bob Goemans had a great article on the subject in the Sept. 08 FAMA, with some sources for Chloroquine phosphate, one of which is http://www.spectrumchemical.com/retail/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=Chemicals&product%5Fid=6647185. Most chemical supplies will have this.> The Quinine must have severely reduced the ich, as Sunday and Monday mornings there were some present on the fish, but not near the number as Saturday morning. <It can be an effective treatment.> Prescription says to treat these fish in a nine day continual bath... but I'm thinking that perhaps twelve days or longer might be appropriate for this resistant strain. I have never seen anything quite like this. Again, I'll follow up with results/progress, but if you awaken in the night with an amazing idea, please reply! <I will drop this in Bob's box just in case he does have more to add when he gets back. Do keep us posted.> Thanks again, we're struggling but pressing on... <Welcome, a steady course my friend. Scott V.> <<Thank you Scott, Tom. BobF>>

Ich, copper and DT    7/24/08 Hello, <Hi there> I was wondering if you could offer some advice in regards to my ich problem. I have a 150gal FOWLR display tank and a 40gal QT. Unfortunately the fish I have are too many and too large to be able to treat in my QT. So after doing some research I came to the conclusion that the best course of action is to remove the LR from the DT, put it in a large container with salt water, heater and powerhead, remove all my inverts and place them in my separate fuge, then treat the DT and fish with copper. <... a very poor idea> What do you think? Would you advise this? <No and no> The DT would have only the fish and 1" live sand. <... the copper won't stay in solution, and you'll be killing most all in the LS> There would be no inverts or LR at all. <So?> I plan to treat using Cupramine. <A good product I'll warrant, but won't work here> How long should I treat the tank? <I wouldn't... you'll find that you are unable to "keep" a therapeutic dose of copper in such a setting... too quickly adsorbed...> Would 3 weeks get rid of the ich on the fish and the DT? The live rock, I would leave in the separate container for 6 weeks and I would leave the fuge disconnected from the main sump also for 6 weeks. Thank you for any help you can provide. -Peter <Happy to banter with you... If you're set on trying a cure in the main set-up, I'd look into (and quickly) the use of Chloroquine phosphate... the search tool, on WWM, the Net... Bob Fenner>

Re: Ich, copper and DT   7/24/08 Hello, <Peter> Thank you for the quick reply. <Deemed necessary... as is this resp. here> So the copper treatment would be ineffective because the copper would be absorbed by the live sand and keeping the correct concentration would be difficult? <Adsorbed> Would I be able to keep the correct concentration if I test the copper level daily and add as necessary? <No... have tried this... with many gallons of Cupramine... in commercial settings... over decades of time... You don't have to repeat my lack of success. Won't work> Would hyposalinity work better in this case? Maybe keep the display tank and fish in hypo for 4 weeks. <... sorry to state, I don't have time to re-write all of this... IS posted on WWM, in books, articles penned by me...> I understand the live sand would die in both cases. But with hyposalinity, it would re-populate once the live rock is added back to the tank. Plus I would be able to return the inverts once the treatment is over. Something I can't do if using copper. Thank you for the suggestion of using Chloroquine phosphate. I will research it on the net and WWM. -Peter <I would... and quickly. BobF>

Re: Ich, copper and DT   7/25/08 Hello again, <Peter> Thank you for the reply. I looked into Chloroquine phosphate. Unfortunately I don't have access to this medicine. <Ah, yes... perhaps worth the time, trouble to try to buy through veterinary or human sources...> It would probably take me a long time to obtain it and by then, all my fish would be infested with ich. Interesting enough, my 2 triggers have yet to display any signs of ich, <Balistids are "tougher", often sub-clinical> while all the other fish have at least a few specks. But I guess that's what makes Triggers so resilient. Again, I appreciate the help. But I have to act fast, so hyposalinity will have to do for now. If ich does come back months down the road, I will be better prepared with a proper sized QT. -Peter <You may well be faced with, defaulting to a (very common) choice of having an ongoing-infested system... See WWM re. Bob Fenner>

Marine ich treatment, Chloroquine Phosphate   7/22/08 To the Crew at WWM: <Gene> For many years you've helped fellow hobbyists through their troubles including myself. This time I do not have a question but I would like to share my experience with the fight I've been having for YEARS against ich. <Please do> Before I begin I would like to remind everyone that proper quarantine is essential. It is NOT an option. A QT system can be set up in an out of the way place (mine's in the laundry room). My QT system is a 50 gal. AGA with a 15w UV, large Aquaclear power filter, CPR BakPak skimmer, heater and a variety of plants and PVC sections. This is what's worked for me, especially since I usually have a couple of fish in QT so I needed the extra room. My usual protocol would be to let the new fish settle in for about a week <A very good practice> and then begin hyposalinity therapy as a prophylactic measure for 3 weeks then slowly bring the SG back up. Many people, myself included, can't wait to get their new fish into their main system and don't have the patience to wait the month or so. Try to think of how healthy the fish will be and the long term enjoyment that will come from having that healthy fish in your system. In the meanwhile you'll be able to observe your new fish while in QT. <Good spiel> As stated earlier I have been battling ich for YEARS with what I believe now to be a very resistant strain. I don't like to use chemicals so I've tried hyposalinity many times only for the parasite to reappear. I always QT my fish with an average QT period of 4 - 6 weeks. Awhile back, I read an article in FAMA about a product called Chloroquine phosphate ( CP ). The author, Bob Goemans, also has a book out that I obtained which explained the new chemical treatment. My system is a 210 gal. AGA FOWLR with a sump capacity of 75 gal. and a 55 gal. refugium.. After I turned off my UV, Ozonizer, Skimmer and refugium I began the treatment. At first I didn't lower the salinity so the effectiveness was in question. A week later I began hyposalinity (SG 1.009) with a CP treatment. One week later the fish were looking amazingly well. However, when I finished my first treatment and began increasing the salinity, the ich returned. It was then I began believing the parasite needs to go through its life cycle in order for many treatments to be successful. I took a deep breath, regrouped and went a different route. The following is what I did next. On 5/19 I began treatment with CP. The first dose was a double dose of 20/ppm. and I did not use hyposalinity. My SG was 1.018 which was been slowly raised to 1.022.. On 5/26 I did a 50% water change and added the second dose. This time at 10/ppm. On 6/3 I did another 50% water change and added the third dose, again at 10/ppm. On 6/10 I performed the final 50% water change and add the final dose at 10/ppm. I turned on my skimmer on 6/28 and turned on the UV and reconnected my refugium on 7/5. On July 8th. all fish were doing well with no signs of parasites. I even introduced a Cortez angelfish and 6 chalk basses on July 1st that were appropriately quarantined for 6 weeks and they too are looking good. It's now July 22nd and the fish in my tank have never looked better!! At this point I have to believe the CP was definitely effective in eliminating Cryptocaryon that is a thorn in the side of many hobbyists. It appears the correct protocol is as described above; do not use hyposalinity with the CP treatment, use a double dose of 20ppm with first dose, 10ppm for the next three doses with all doses precluded with a 50% water change. (Of course not to be used in the presence of photosynthetic organisms). The Crew has helped many hobbyists over the years that I hope my experience will also help other hobbyists out there an alternative procedure in the battle against ich. It is not safe with photosynthetic organisms but it appears to not have any negative effect on shrimp nor crabs. Gene <Thank you for sharing your information and passion Gene. Much appreciated. Bob Fenner> Stumped on med effects, Quinine    6/19/08 Hopefully you are familiar with my Ick battle, but if not, the short version is that I am treating my main tank with quinine sulfate to combat the resistant strain of Ick. If Bob is the recipient of this email, he is very familiar? if not, trust that he and I have had extensive emails that led to this course of action? and a new problem has arisen which I need some assistance on. The entire tank has turned green. The two tangs, a yellow and an Atlantic Blue, have not shown any problems. The Passer Angel has show some uncomfortable reaction, and the Lunare Wrasse has gone into hiding due to it. It has also effected a cleaner wrasse (purchased long ago, before I became ?informed?), in that he eats, but cannot swim normally anymore, seems extremely imbalanced. The quinine treatment, as recommended by Natl. Fish Pharm, was 3 treatments, 3 day durations per treatment, changing 25% of the water prior to each treatment. Treatments one and two were fine, but my quinine supply was gone and I had another batch aired in for treatment 3. This third treatment turned the tank a nasty green color, killing all snails (which were removed), and causing this odd reaction from the fish. The only other thing that was added to the tank was something called ?Prime? by SeaChem, to neutralize Ammonia and Nitrites, after the snail kill off. This was done in conjunction with adding carbon, restarting the skimmer and UV filter, and a large water change. I had to go out of town for a day after this, and returning yesterday afternoon the water seemed to be as green as before. (this is not algae bloom green, btw). Again, I did a 30% water change, added more carbon, etc. I noticed some improvement this morning in both color of the water and the fish, except for the small cleaner wrasse, who maintains his imbalance. Last night, after the water change, all fish had an appetite and fed well. I spoke with NFP Monday regarding whether or not Quinine Sulfate would cause such a massive staining of the water, and they are adamant that it would not. <I have witnessed this change before though... with Quinine... perhaps an indirect effect... killing so much of competing, predatory microbes that others that look green proliferate. I think the change is biological, not simply chemical> I'm wondering if I received something else in powder form by mistake that would cause the above conditions, and does anyone there have any thoughts/guesses on this. Does it sound similar (coloring of water, affecting of specific species-particularly wrasses, invert die-off) to anything you have had experience with? The tank is 150 gallons. The dose was a ¼ teaspoon per 10 gallons. Again, just basically brainstorming, looking for root cause type info. It is probably too late for the little wrasse, I'm hoping all other fish can pull through this. It has certainly made a 150 gallon tank full of African Cichlids sound appealing?. <Mmm, yes> Thanks so much, Thomas Roach <Welcome. BobF>

Re: Stumped on med effects   6/19/08 Thanks, that was as best an assumption as possible. Last night on the way home I stopped and bought the last two Poly-Filters that a LFS had on supply. <Oh, how much I wish I owned the rights to this product!> This morning there was clearly an improvement in water clarity, so we seem to be making some headway. When I got home last night, I thought we had lost the little cleaner wrasse, as he had applied himself to the intake of the FX5 canister filter, which is quite large. I fed some Mysis shrimp and Emerald Entrée, at which time he released himself and fed quite happily with the other fish. It's as if he's lost his equilibrium, and he was just resting in an upright position with the help of the intake volume. Odd. My thoughts would be that tangs would be more sensitive to upset water conditions, <Depends of what nature> and that's what confused me, that being the wrasses are impacted more than the tangs. And of course, why dose 3 would have such a different effect than doses 1 & 2. <Worn tolerance> I will say, though, that the Ick is gone. I sent an email earlier in the week that I believe was lost in the technical issues I read about, that being that since I've added Quinine to the water, it has eliminated all of the Cyanobacteria, every bit of it. Ever heard of that, or thought that it would have that effect? <Yes... and likely malarial Protozoans...> Maybe something good did come out of it all. Thomas Roach <I do hope this is the end of your trials... BobF>

Ich, Crypt... is hypo enough? Diff. of opinions   04/13/2008 I know that a hospital tank is the ideal way to handle an ich outbreak, but before going on vacation three weeks ago my ich returned. In order to act quickly, as I would be gone for a week, I pulled my live rock and sand from the tank and lowered the salt to 1.012. This kept the ich at bay while I was gone and upon returning I lowered it to 1.009. <<Ok....However, always best to get the hyposalinity running while your around the tank, to keep an eye on salinity levels / fluctuations>> It has been this way for over two weeks now. I am wondering if, at this point, what would be the best way to proceed. <<Continue hypo until all traces have gone from the fish, and then monitor for 2 weeks>> My display is bare only containing my fish and I am tempted to just use this as my hospital tank. After two weeks of 1.009 hypo I am still seeing periodic spots on two fish. At what stage in the ich life cycle does the hypo kill it? <<Usually around 2 - 3 weeks before you start to see it disappear>> Is it at the stage where it falls off the fish? <<Yes>> Anyway, I am thinking that I will run the hypo for six weeks and after bringing the salt levels up I will follow with a copper treatment. <<No need for copper treatment after hyposalinity>> I have done copper for four weeks before, only to see the ich return after adding live rock from what I thought was a reputable shop until I found that the live rock tanks run on the same system as the fish tanks. So, this is where I am at now and I want to know what to look for during the Hypo process and if hypo could be enough to solve the problem alone or should I use copper as planned. <<Hypo alone is sufficient. Constant monitoring of the fish through-out the process>> My fish are all thriving in hypo and have shown no behavior changes thus far. <<Glad to hear it>> My tank is running with a wet/dry w/skimmer, an Eheim classic and 25 watt uv. Any suggestions as to how I should proceed would be appreciated. <<As you have already started the hypo treatment in the display tank, you may as well continue this until the end.>> I am hesitating to move the fish into a hospital tank as they are handling the hypo with little stress in the display and I think that I would be best served to do the copper treatment here as well, hoping to finally rid my fish and tank of this problem. <<As said above, after an effective hypo treatment, there should not be any need to use a copper treatment afterwards. Your on the right path to rectifying the Ich. Keep at it, keep water as pristine as possible, test regularly. Hope this helps. Enjoy the weekend. A Nixon>> Thank you, Greg Fasano

Re: Ich, Crypt... is hypo enough? Diff. of opinions (RMF amended title)  04/14/2008 Hey guys, <Thomas> I read this today on the FAQ, thought I'd add a comment since I had a tremendous battle with Ich in my main tank a while back. That Quinine Sulfate I ordered after you guys connected me with that National Fish Pharm really did a wonderful job on my Ich problem and did not harm my biological filter. and, though it's a risk you take, I know that some fan worms survived the treatment as well, as I had some appear some time after the treatment on live rock that had been in the tank during the treatment. I had not added any new rock at the time of it's appearance. From all indications, I had the tough, resistant strain of Ick as well. I recommend it if you have an Ick problem. We've been Ick free for 6 months. Best of luck, Thomas <Thank you for chiming in... with this timely input. Will share. Bob Fenner> Ich, Crypt... is hypo enough? Diff. of opinions (RMF amended title)  04/13/2008 I know that a hospital tank is the ideal way to handle an ich outbreak, but before going on vacation three weeks ago my ich returned. In order to act quickly, as I would be gone for a week, I pulled my live rock and sand from the tank and lowered the salt to 1.012. This kept the ich at bay while I was gone and upon returning I lowered it to 1.009. <<Ok....However, always best to get the hyposalinity running while your around the tank, to keep an eye on salinity levels / fluctuations>> It has been this way for over two weeks now. I am wondering if, at this point, what would be the best way to proceed. <<Continue hypo until all traces have gone from the fish, and then monitor for 2 weeks>> My display is bare only containing my fish and I am tempted to just use this as my hospital tank. After two weeks of 1.009 hypo I am still seeing periodic spots on two fish. At what stage in the ich life cycle does the hypo kill it? <<Usually around 2 - 3 weeks before you start to see it disappear>> Is it at the stage where it falls off the fish? <<Yes>> Anyway, I am thinking that I will run the hypo for six weeks and after bringing the salt levels up I will follow with a copper treatment. <<No need for copper treatment after hyposalinity>> I have done copper for four weeks before, only to see the ich return after adding live rock from what I thought was a reputable shop until I found that the live rock tanks run on the same system as the fish tanks. So, this is where I am at now and I want to know what to look for during the Hypo process and if hypo could be enough to solve the problem alone or should I use copper as planned. <<Hypo alone is sufficient. Constant monitoring of the fish through-out the process>> My fish are all thriving in hypo and have shown no behavior changes thus far. <<Glad to hear it>> My tank is running with a wet/dry w/skimmer, an Eheim classic and 25 watt uv. Any suggestions as to how I should proceed would be appreciated. <<As you have already started the hypo treatment in the display tank, you may as well continue this until the end.>> I am hesitating to move the fish into a hospital tank as they are handling the hypo with little stress in the display and I think that I would be best served to do the copper treatment here as well, hoping to finally rid my fish and tank of this problem. <<As said above, after an effective hypo treatment, there should not be any need to use a copper treatment afterwards. Your on the right path to rectifying the Ich. Keep at it, keep water as pristine as possible, test regularly. Hope this helps. Enjoy the weekend. A Nixon>> Thank you, Greg Fasano

Malachite green/quinine and ich G'day guys, <Good morning Luke, MacL here with you today.> I have found your site most informative.  <Many thanks for the nice words.>  I have a 530 litre, 5 foot by 2 foot, by 2 foot Tropical reef tank set up. In my tank I have 2 Pajama cardinal fish, 3 Green Chromis, 1 regal tang, 1 mimic tang, 1 mandarin fish, 1 scooter ( Neosynchiropus ocellatus ). I also have 1 pink Goniopora - bowling ball size, 1 green Goniopora - apple size, 2 species of Discosoma, 1 group of Zoanthus and 2 Anemones. I have a wall of live rock along the back of my set up, Serpulorbis inopertus and Haliotis varia are quite common through this wall. 18 months ago I successfully treated an outbreak of Cryptocaryon irritans on my regal tang with a 4 day treatment of Quinine hydrochloride and malachite green. All of the above species in my tank survived, though the Gonioporas went into themselves for 8 days. Everything has been fine until now.  Recently I added 1 clown wrasse, 1 18 inch snowflake eel and 1 Pentaceraster tuberculatus. I now have another out break of Cryptocaryon irritans. The regal tang has a good smearing of white spots and most of the other fish have 1 or 2 spots on them. No fish are showing physical distress YET.  I believe the white spot came into my system on the clown wrasse though at the time of purchase no physical signs were noticeable. For future use I will be setting up a hospitable / Quarantine tank. I know I will have to remove the Pentaceraster tuberculatus before using the same treatment as before, Quinine hydrochloride and malachite green, but I do not know if I should remove my snowflake eel?  <Definitely take him out of the tank while the treatment is going on.> Please your opinions would be greatly appreciated.  <Good luck, MacL> 

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