Re: Help!  Moo is sick  1/8/06
Thank you for the quick response.
<Welcome>
The formalin bath did not seem to have any effect whatsoever (Ich parasites clearly visible 24 hours later).
<... do you understand the "ich cycle?"... if treated with formalin, the life cycle on the fish themselves will/could be eliminated... the resting stages are going to cycle back on if you've left the fish in the same system... This is posted on WWM re Crypt/Marine Ich>
In your reply you stated that copper COULD
be used "carefully."  How arduous a process would this be?
<Posted as well... involves testing (at least daily... remoting to a treatment system>
  I'd like to use Cupramine and a Salifert test kit to monitor the copper levels in the hospital tank (was planning on using a 29 gallon tank with an Aquaclear 70 for filtration).  Is this a viable solution or am I better off going with the 6 week hyposalinity treatment?
<... please see WWM... am not a fan of hyposalinity "treatments">
  If you believe copper is the way to go could you please suggest a treatment schedule - amount of copper in solution
and for how many days.
<Posted on WWM. Bob Fenner>
Thank you for your help,
Eric

Ick and Formol  12/15/05
Dear Sirs
Can I use Formol
<A 40% solution of formaldehyde>
to treat ick in a Yellow Tang?
<Not safely>
The dosage, 20 drops for eight litres is ok? This dosage is recommended for Discus and during one hour with good aeration. An alternative will be 3 drops for ten litres during 24 hours.
Thanks in advance
Best regards
Flávio
<Do be careful if you proceed... be in constant attendance, ready to remove the fish from this bath. Do also read re formalin/formaldehyde use and other means to treat Cryptocaryon posted on WWM. Bob Fenner>

Re: crypto and hyposalinity: hypo does not work  8/16/05
Bob,
    I did quarantine the Emperor before for 1 month but still had the problem with the crypto.
<Did you treat (prophylactically) with copper?>
Is a 55 gallon quarantine with daily water changes for all the fish in the 180g display enough or am going to have problems ?
<Can't tell... you just have to try, monitor and see>
This is the only tank that I presently have set up for QT purposes ?  ( Fish = Large Emp Angel, Naso Tang, Majestic Angel, Foxface, Purple tang )
<These two angels together... not a good idea...>
All fish are still eating and doing very well i.e. no exterior signs of disease.  Do I need another QT ?
<Maybe>
    Kordon's Rid Ich+ is said not to disturb nitrification ( this is a 11.5%formalin USP grade  4.25% and a zinc free chloride salt of malachite green .038% )
<... we've been over this? Formalin is a biocide... crosslinks peptides... did you not state you had some bio-medical academic background? Look up the MSDS information on this compound>
I guess you would not recommend treating the main display with this?
<...>
Because ?
<... posted on WWM: ...>
it would not work ? or I would have trouble getting it out of the system after treatment done?
You have been a big help separating wheat from chaff re this issue.
And I will be patiently persistent
Jimmy
<Then read... http://www.wetwebmedia.com/formalinart.htm
Please learn to/use the indices, search tool on WWM... Bob Fenner>

Annularis in Quarantine
Hey Bob. I have been using the site now for a while and it's great. I've been recently searching the FAQ's for my angel but had no luck. I have an Annularis Angel in QT treating with formalin and malachite green for about two weeks now. My nitrites are about .25 and sometimes .50. My angel was doing VERY WELL and all of the sudden appeared these really small white spots all over his body, I mean he's covered in them. There are millions of them sprinkled on his body. This has happened before and then just gone away with the medicine so I thought it was ich or something.
<Me too>
But, they really don't look like ich or velvet, I've never seen this before. He broke out in these and rapid breathing in less than a 24 hour period. Could this be the formalin or mal green doing this to him? 
<Yes>
Or is this some kind of disease? 
<Not likely... all external parasites should be gone with the first exposure to the formalin... Am given to suggest that you do a pH adjusted freshwater dip and move this fish into the main/display tank... this is what I would do>
I need to find out how to treat it and what this is from. This angel went from eating like a pig yesterday and swimming all over the tank and this morning I wake up and he's covered and floating in the middle of the tank not really swimming much. If someone could respond quick because he's on his way out, I'm running out of time........THANK YOU!!!
Jesse
<Got to ask: Do you have a microscope, some simple gear for doing a skin smear... look/see? This is also what I would do... look into a cheapy QX3... this is what I have... it works fine... I would move this fish. Bob Fenner> 

Formalin, Malachite, Annularis Follow-up
Bob, YOU'RE A LIFESAVER!!! I actually already started to acclimate him to my display tank because that was my first intuition. My gut feeling was that it was the water and/or meds bothering him. Glad that worked out well, lol. I thought that it takes a while for any medicine to kill parasites...
<Mmm, depends on what types... Formalin kills most all on contact... all external>
...and that was the reason for a minimum 2 week to a month QT period (to make sure no new cysts hatch and more parasites break out)?
<If the live stages were present on the fish... they'd be killed... if the fish was new, where would the encysted, other life stages come from?>
Would the formalin and mal green kill Oodinium and Brooklynellosis and could it be a possibility that he has either of
those?
<Would kill them, unlikely it's Brooklynellosis, possibly Amyloodinium, but not at this stage...>
I'm only asking because at the end of the email you mentioned a microscope. Are you concerned that there really could be a possibility that this could be a parasite (ich/velvet) and not the medicines?
<Am always concerned... the only way I handle toxic chemicals, expose them to livestock is to be sure of their efficacy. Bob Fenner> 

Angel tweaked by malachite/formalin?
Hey Bob, just wanted to touch base and let you know the angel is safely acclimated into my display tank. The only thing that's a little weird is that he keeps twitching his head and body (and this was a while (a day) later after the freshwater dip and acclimation). Is this a concern?
<Maybe>
Could the mal green and formalin have given him permanent gill damage?
<Possibly>
What do you think could be the cause of this behavior and is this something that will go away with time? This was my last concern, so I won't be bothering you anymore, lol.
Thank you
<Likely related... hopefully reversible. Bob Fenner>

Medication Concentrations
Hello. 
<Hi! Scott F. here today!>
Hey-I'm making this short and to the point. Sorry for the terrible grammar, but my comp crapped out after I wrote a nice email to you guys.
<Okay...But please do try to spell/grammar check, etc. when you can- it makes everyone's job (especially that of Marina, who posts all of the questions!)...>
I need to know how much malachite green I can use to treat my two clowns that are in my new QT tank. They've had a Methylene blue freshwater bath already, and are now in my 10 QT tank with carbon and a filter sponge. I just need to know how much malachite green and or formalin I can use to safely treat them (not dip...I don't want to do another dip...I don't think little clownfish will survive more trauma).
<Well, if you are using a typical over-the-counter aquarium remedy containing formalin, it's usually a 3% solution, and you use about 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons. In a typical straight formalin product, it's a 37% concentration, and the typical dose is 1 teaspoon per 90 gallons. The typical dose for malachite green is 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons with most of the products that I have seen. Don't take my notes here as the ultimate say on things, though. When using any medication, ALWAYS consult and follow the manufacturer's instructions to the letter.>
Thanks a million. I think they'll be getting along fine after this.
<I hope that they will!>
Hail Bob for CMA that book is incredible...I've learned sooooooooooooo much, and I thought I knew plenty. Thanks Chris aka -fishtank-
<A pleasure, Chris! I know that Bob is thrilled that his book has had such a solid impact on the hobby!>
ps- Sorry about bad grammar, but I'm pretty pissed at my comp and don't feel like going into detail again.
<Understood...Take care! Regards, Scott F>

Medication Duration- And Removal
One more quick question...how long do I keep the fish in treatment? I'm going with 1 teaspoon for my 10g but how long should I keep them in there? 
<Well, I'd follow the manufacturer's directions. Usually, the course of treatment is a week or two>
And how should I get the malachite out of there when its all done? Water change and carbon I'm assuming..
<Yep...and Poly Filter, which is great at removing medications>
I'll be taking out the carbon during the treatment. Once again, thanks a million.
<My pleasure! Good luck! Regards, Scott F> 

The High Cost of "Reef Safe" Medication
Hello,
<Hi there! Scott F. in tonight>
I have a new 55 gallon tank with 46 pounds of live Fiji & Tonga rock. I've had to tank running for 2 weeks with damsels and a trigger. My trigger got ich and my local fish shop gave me OrganiCure and said this product was SAFE for live rock and crabs (as I have both).
<Grr...I cringe when I hear that term...No medication is really "reef safe"...Regardless of what medication you choose to use, make it a rule to NEVER treat in the display tank!>
Well, the following morning I awake and 10 crabs are dead (1 survived) and all of my feather dusters are all gone/dead. The colors on my rocks are also looking faded and white.  I spoke with my fish shop and they told me OrganiCure is safe and shouldn't of killed my rock and crabs so they are unwilling to help me out at all. ARE they incorrect or being dishonest???
<I don't think that they are being dishonest, but I am almost certain that they are incorrect. Just don't medicate in the display tank! period.>
How can this product be sold as "safe for inverts" when it really
isn't???
<That's the $40,000,000 question. I don't know why products are marketed this way, and I'm not sure why they are so aggressively sold as a "reef safe" treatment. It's a bad practice that can result in a disaster, as you now know>
In order to ever have feather dusters, snails, crabs, starfish, etc do I basically have to trash my tank and start again??? I'm just devastated by the amount of money I spent on live rock just 2 weeks ago to now have to trash it :(
<I don't think that you'd have to trash it. What I'd do is execute a series of large water changes, and use some good chemical filtration media, such as Poly Filter (which excels at removing medications and other impurities from tank water) and activated carbon on a continuous basis. After a month or two of this, chances are good that you'll have gotten out the majority of the medication. Some will dissipate on its own, too. You can never be 100% certain, so do check with hardy, inexpensive inverts, like snails or hermits, before adding more delicate animals. I hate to have you "experiment" with these inverts, but that's really gonna be your best guide. Good luck! Regards, Scott F.>

Where to Get Formalin in LA?
Any idea where it can be purchased in Los Angeles, California or the surrounding area?
Thanks!
<What I would do is mail order this medication. It is not always available in CA. You can get formalin-based products from many
e-tailers. HTH. Regards, Scott F.>

Formalin & Orangespot Filefish
<Hi, MikeD here>
I have a few questions about a couple of subject matters.  The first concerns formalin.<OK>  I live in California and can no longer find formalin for sale.<California's standards are stricter than many, and formalin is a known and proved carcinogen, or cancer causing agent>  I have heard two things.  The first is that it is illegal to sell here, and the other is that the pharmaceutical company that makes it is no longer in business.  What is the truth behind it?<Since there always was more than one company that manufactured it, I seriously doubt that THE company went out of business, unless of course "they" are referring to a California company, which is quite possible>  I depend on this medication to get rid of the various external parasites found on marine angels and butterflyfish before introducing them to my aquarium.  It is part of the reason I'm able to keep the Eight Banded Butterflyfish (Chaetodon octofasciatus) alive and eating well for a long time now.<I seriously doubt it's the formalin enabling you to keep the fish alive, but rather your husbandry and feeding regimens instead.>  How do I get a hold of it, or are there other safe alternatives to ridding fish of their parasites?<There are several other chemicals that are effective against external parasites, the choice of which is often dependent on what type of parasite it is to begin with>
The other concerns the Orangespot filefish (Oxymonacanthus longirostris).  I have kept this fish before in a tank filled with thriving Acropora colonies.<That's highly commendable and a much greater length than many are willing to go in the attempt>   One day it mysteriously disappeared.<Which is usually the end met by most in captivity>  All my other fish at the time were healthy and still alive.  I believe I had a couple of Red Margin Fairy Wrasses (Cirrhilabrus rubrimarginatus), a Blue Tang (Paracanthurus hepatus), and a Golden Pygmy Angel (Centropyge aurantius).  I suspect the possibility of parasites killing this fish<No offense, but I think you've got a parasite fixation>, for it pecked at the corals all day long.<Meaning what?>  What's even weirder is that I have been seeing pictures of these fish fat as a pig in nature.  But my fish never got that friggin' big in the aquarium feeding off of Acropora colonies alone.<That's likely because it was never healthy and was lacking in a critical element in its diet it needed to survive.>  This to me seems contrary to what is being written everywhere in books magazines, as well as articles on the internet about them being exclusive corallivores.<OK, I'll agree a little with that statement.>  Is it possible they are just as undemanding in the variety of food they eat as other filefish, but are rather just shy behaviorally and very slow to adapt to rapid changes in diet and environments?<Possible, but that's not likely the entire explanation, with the real answer being that there's something in their wild diet you weren't able to meet, perhaps something as simple as not enough different species of corals. In the wild they're on the move all day long and probably include much in their diet in addition to the coral, which provides the bulk of it.>  I have read accounts from certain aquarists training this fish to regularly accept normal aquarium foods.<Me too and I'm always suspicious of these reports, with many people thinking 6 months or a year is "success" while in actuality it's just slow starvation.>  I've also noticed in pet stores and wholesale warehouses, that these fish peck at the sides of the glass and the bottom of the tank a lot.<Logical. they are starving to death and trying to find ANYTHING to help fill the gap.>  The pecking seems very deliberate.<It probably is, with their vision attuned to things we can't even see.>  What are they doing?<Eating>  Could the possibility of parasites I've seen commonly attached to angels and butterflies affect the health of these fish drastically to the point of no return?<By the hundreds? Not likely. I don't know you but you really do seem obsessed with parasites.>  Would it be proper to assume that if I tried a similar mini-reef Acropora set up in the distant future, to purchase the smallest juvenile filefish possible for the purposes of adaptability, much like butterflyfish?<Not a bad idea, but if I were to try it I'd add more than just Acropora, as nature rarely has anything found singly by species. I wouldn't be surprised to find that small anemones, cnidarians and such are also a vital part of their diet.>  Are these fish also commonly found in groups rather than singly in nature?<Actually, no. Adults have been found to go through a very elaborate pairing ritual, not unlike many of the other filefish.>  They seem to be very peaceful towards specimens of the same species.<Seem is a dangerous word. Indications are that males can be highly territorial and combative, another trait often found in other filefish.>  Could they possibly suffer from severe loneliness as Anthias do if they're kept alone?<Possible, but highly unlikely, as the family as a whole tends to regard each other with antagonism, particularly in the confines of an aquarium.>  Any well informed and current information about them would be greatly appreciated.  Thank you.<You have to keep several things in mind. Even with the best equipment available, humans can only spend a few hours underwater at any given time, thus any and all information, even based on wild animals, is at best extremely sketchy and 95% guesswork and assumption. To make matters worse, it's not possible to follow them into areas where they regularly travel as we are simply too large, with the final kicker being that the human eye, as you pointed out, may not be able to discern something that's blatantly visible to them. While I commend your dogged determination and the steps to which you are willing to go to solve the dilemma we currently face with the species, I'm forced to agree with the commonly accepted statement that, for now, a LOT more natural observation needs to be done before they are suitable as candidates for a home tank. With luck, the answer will be found before we wipe them out as a species, either by over collecting, or, more likely, the destruction of the entire reef ecosystem they need to survive. At present, the human race is the greatest single extinction factor since the asteroid/comet that likely eliminated the dinosaurs.>
Philip

Re: QT, Biological filtration Gone?
I just e-mailed you earlier about the Clown Trigger scenario. I also asked about the QT. I took my Maroon Clown out. My NO2 is now above 1.6 and my NO3 is above 50.
<Way too high! I would dilute the nitrite immediately with a fifty percent water change, or move the livestock from this system>
But NH3/4 is still 0.0. I re-vacuumed the inside of the whole tank and a 20% water change.
<Not enough. You need to get and keep the nitrite below 1.0 ppm>
I also have a spare skimmer that I have on my 55 for helping to get my 125 going when the time comes. I put it on to see if it could help. Did the Formalite kill my Bio?
<Yes, very likely>
was it the days it ran without anything in it prior to starting the treatments?
<Possibly a contributing cause>
Why is the NH staying at 0.0?
<Perhaps some of those initial nitrifying microbe populations are intact>
The Formalite's box and web site said it was not harmful to your Bio system?
<Not so>
Like I said earlier the tank was a 10gal with water from my 55, a spare filter with one of my bio-wheels from my 55, and bare bottom. After running a few days all parameters were a mirror of the 55. How can it go so bad so fast?
<Formalin/Formalite is a general biocide... it kills all life... on contact. Bob Fenner>

Formalin with Sensitive Fishes
Hello WetWeb crew person who takes this question    : )
<Hello! Ryan with your question today>
     I’ve made it a habit to peruse this most awesome website almost everyday as new challenges arise in my marine animal keeping odyssey. <Phenomenal thing to say!> Thank
you all for your much needed knowledge, time and caring for our piscine critters and their sometimes bewildered owners. <Sometimes?  Just joshing>
     I am seeking advise on treating a pretty sensitive flasher wrasse (not sure if P. carpenteri or p. filamentosus) for a rather persistent case of crypt..  He is in a 15 gallon bare bottomed, PVC pipe quarantine tank along with 5 Stonogobiops gobies.  PH  has remained at 8.0.
    I tried a fresh-water dip on the wrasse with adjusted ph to 8.0  and temp around 78f, and the wrasse went stiff and flared, lost color and dropped to the bottom and lay there within 5 seconds. He didn’t move when I scooped him out and put him back in the quarantine where he spent twenty four hours breathing heavy and lying in a corner before he recovered. <Doesn't sound too promising>  In fact, I believe I was more out stressed by how he reacted.  Am not inclined
to do that again. <And likely not necessary, if the proper medications are added to the quarantine setup.>
     Decided to treat with Kordon Formalin-3 because it seemed this was the better choice for a sensitive fish. <Yes, I was about to suggest it> The biological filter crashed after first treatment. <Predictably> Have been dosing according to directions on bottle for 7 days at the 10ppm.  Temp. is at 80f.  Because of the filter crash I have been doing 30-50% water changes a day while siphoning bottom, and dosing new change water only. <In QT, 30% daily water changes are almost mandatory!  In a perfect world, you shouldn't rely on the bacterial filter in this scenario> Also am adding Seachem Prime to help protect the fishes from the unfortunately present ammonia and high nitrites. <OK> Throughout this, so far, 7day ordeal, the wrasse and gobies having been eating (feeding sparingly) with a ravenous appetite.
    On 7th day (AAAAAAARGH!, my back is killing me), about 3 new Ich spots appeared on the wrasse’s dorsal fin. <It's time for copper>
     My questions come from total lack of experience in treating marine fish....would you recommend I stay with the Formalin-3 at double the recent   dose to 20ppm (which is what I've begun to do as I wait for a response)? and observe if it was simply that the dose was simply not strong enough? Or do you recommend using the heavier duty formalin (staying with the same type of chemical) for ponds from a company like Aquarium Products instead (I have to order off the internet)?  Or  go on to Coppersafe which I worry will maybe pound the wrasse and gobies more than the formalin.  Is switching medications  way too detrimental to the fishes health? <Run carbon, and in two days with water changes, start copper treatment.  Buy a copper test, you'll need it to get the treatment levels correct.>
     I am trying to be as conscientious a caretaker as possible and absolutely appreciate the time taken by you to consider and answer my questions.
<Yes, and overcoming ICH is the nastiest business in the hobby!  Be patient, you're on your way to curing this ailment!  Feel free to write back if the copper doesn't do the trick.  Cheers, Ryan> Thank you so much, once again,  Esmeralda

Formaldehyde treatment-disaster
Hello Jason,
<Bob here... the boys are "leaving on a jet plane">
After doing some further studying on this matter (Ok, homework) it seems that Formaldehyde is indeed absorbed by activated carbon. Of course even if I was using carbon, I would have to remove it for the medication (actually I never use carbon in any of my tanks, only after medications). As you said..
<George... am very surprised that you used this biocide... crosslinks peptides as you must know>
time will tell. However, I would suppose that 3 days after the toxification, the invertebrates should have died.. instead they continue to graze on the algae as if nothing happened.. I know they have a completely different biology than fishes but still.. (I know - hope dies last). Many thanks to you and Bob for your help..
<Dosage effect/dependency here... the formaldehyde was "used up"... none present now assuredly. Bob Fenner>
George

Re: Formaldehyde/Biocide experience
Hello Bob and Jason,
<<Greetings George, JasonC again.>>
Thanks for letting me know. In fact, in have already seen some of my crabs becoming less and less active, although the mollusks seem to go their way. I will try to dilute the chemical with some water changes and see what happens. <<good luck, I do fear the damage is done.>> The only survivor (a "neon" damsel) is swimming in the next tank which was not treated. Do you think it will make it ? <<perhaps, time will tell.>> Isn't formaldehyde absorbed by activated carbon?? <<it will remove some, but probably not all.>> If nothing works, we can always start from the beginning - or go back to our beloved freshwater !!
<<sounds good, although I wouldn't give up that quickly.>>
George Reclos
<<Cheers, J -- >>

- Formalin Bath -
How do I give a Formalin bath on a Flame Angel??? <The typical way is to take some water out of your main tank and put it in a bucket/container - then add an amount of Formalin appropriate for the quantity of water in the bucket - then place the fish in the bucket for a couple of hours, best with an airstone to keep the water well aerated. Once the time is up, the fish goes back into the main tank.> My LFS said to set up a QT tank put him for 3 days and treat with Formalin. <That sounds more like proper quarantine to me rather than a simple bath - quarantine is the better way to deal with parasitic problems - can easily assess the condition of the fish and continue treatment as necessary. You should know that a proper treatment of Formalin should last at least a week.> Then fish him out and intro to my main tank. Is that ok??? <I'd go at least the full week in quarantine - two if the fish looks to be improving and/or in good shape. Cheers, J -- >
Live rock and ick questions II
Hi Anthony
<Cheers, my friend>
I really appreciate your time and really didn't expect to get a reply.
<that's because you are aiming too high, the rest of us are down here in the gutter...hehe>
I think its great what you guys are doing for the hobby. 
<thank you kindly for saying so... it is appreciated>
Anyways I guess I have a question about using the formalin. Does it matter what brand I use, either Aquarium Products Formalin or Kordon's Formalin 3?
<any brand that lists Formalin as the only ingredient... should be clear, colorless>
Or is formalin the same regardless who makes it? 
<fairly consistent at around a 40% solution>
I assume this will effect the nitrification process, 
<not as severely as organic dyes (like Methylene blue) or antibiotics>
and wonder if you can recommend the best product to combat the ammonia spike likely to follow. 
<water changes are best. The ammo neutralizing products are not ideal for a long list of reasons IMO>
I have read that the formalin only effective for a few hours, so I'm thinking maybe just sticking one of Eheim canisters and let it circulate in a bucket of tank water to retain the biological activity or will the bacteria just die because it will have no ammonia to consume while circulating in the bucket? 
<really not so great of a concern to need to do it at all.. and no, the bio-filter will not die without ammonia within hours>
Can you please tell me if this is a stupid idea? 
<Really... all medication should be dosed in a QT tank. I rarely, if ever recommend dosing a main display.. too many potential complications>
Also, providing the treatment is successful can I still add live rock to my tank provided I run poly filters/carbon, and approximately how long after can I add the rock? 
<several days after a good water change and some fresh chemical filtration (carbon and PolyFilters)>
I do change 20 gallons every 2 weeks on 125 gal tank and with each water change siphon half the substrate.
<sounds very good!>
Thanks again, Mike I did read your page where you give tips on responding with a follow up question, I hope this is what you guys meant by replying with the text from the previous question and answer.
<exactly, my friend... thank you>
I assume you help a lot of people and can't possibly remember every question. Please let me know if this is alright so I know in the future.
<you are doing fine... best regards, Anthony Calfo>

Formalin 3 and Methylene blue
Hello Anthony!
I have been doing the freshwater dips for 3 days and I think that all my fishes are out of danger. 
<excellent! FW dips are truly one of the best anti-parasite/protozoan treatments>
There are a couple of white spots on the tail of the Angelfish and the Blue Tang, this is why I still do a couple of dips every day. I still treat my aquarium with SeaCure and will keep for 10 more days (totally 20).
<yes... very good>
Me and my retailer could not get Formalin 3 and Methylene Blue through some representative of the well-known companies (Aquarium Pharm ....). So we are looking for somebody to send us these products front the U.S. Do you know any reliable shop that can sell via the Internet there two products? As a first=rst order we would like to have 12 pieces of each. We would also like to have the Poly-Filter. So, if you could recommend some distributor to me, I would appreciate it.
<I will make sure that Bob sees this... I suspect that he can guide us>
Question: Formalin is 37% Formaldehyde in solution of distilled water. What is Methylene blue?
<an organic dye>
Question: In case that some aquarist can not catch his fishes due to many corals and decoration, is it possible to treat his main system with Methylene blue, and how? 
<not recommended...stains porous media and lingers (even stains the silicone of the tank). Can harm invertebrates and live rock... even bio-filter to a measurable extent. Best in QT system>
Does Methylene Blue remain in the system or is it possible to use Poly-Filter and take it out?
<dilution with water changes and PolyFilters will remove it nicely>
Question: I have seen today a fabulous Heniochus acuminatus in my retailer's shop. It arrived yesterday and seems to be already in a good shape. It is a relatively big fish, its length should be about 5 inches. I would like to buy it, but still I have two hesitations:
- I still treat with SeaCure for Oodinium. Is it good to introduce the Heniochus now that there is a treatment in my aquarium?
<definitely not.. a high risk at this point>
- I have an aggressive Acanthurus Lineatus (5 inches) and an Apolemichthys Xanthotis Angelfish (4 1/2 inches). Do you think that they could wound him? 
<yes... possible>
The Heniochus looks twice as big than the above two fishes (because of his body shape).
<alas... the other fish are more territorial/aggressive>
- My aquarium is 55 gallons. Is it too small for a big Heniochus? (I though that it is not a very kinetic fish, rather a slow one , and for that reason could be o.k. in my small tank).
<actually... the tank overall should not house all three fishes to leave room for their growth to adulthood. Better off with a species that reaches a smaller adult size>
Regards, Thanassis
<kindly, Anthony>

Re: Formalin 3 and Methylene blue
Bob... this needs a little of your input
*** Bob... please see if you can help this fellow with the overseas distributor/US shipping question midway in the message. My answered reply to the rest of the body is already in the sent folder. Thank you.
<Hotay... will send back to you... but you haven't included his email addy... will look for in your answered, sent response.>
Hello Anthony!
I have been doing the freshwater dips for 3 days and I think that all my fishes are out of danger. There are a couple of white spots on the tail of the Angelfish and the Blue Tang, this is why I still do a couple of dips every day. I still treat my aquarium with SeaCure and will keep for 10 more days (totally 20).
Me and my retailer could not get Formalin 3 and Methylene Blue through some representative of the well-known companies (Aquarium Pharm ....). So we are looking for somebody to send us these products from the U.S. Do you know any reliable shop that can sell via the Internet there two products? 
<Most any of the sponsors of WWM should>
As a fis=rst order we would like to have 12 pieces of each. We would also like to have the Poly-Filter. So, if you could recommend some distributor to me, I would appreciate it.
<Try Custom Aquatic>
Question: Formalin is 37% Formaldehyde in solution of distilled water. What is Methylene blue?
<An organic dye. You can find the formulation, properties on the Net>
Question: In case that some aquarist can not catch his fishes due to many corals and decoration, is it possible to treat his main system with Methylene blue, and how? Does Methylene Blue remain in the system or is it possible to use Poly-Filter and take it out?
Question: I have seen today a fabulous Heniochus acuminatus in my retailer's shop. It arrived yesterday and seems to be already in a good shape. It is a relatively big fish, its length should be about 5 inches. I would like to buy it, but still I have two hesitations:
- I still treat with SeaCure for Oodinium. Is it good to introduce the Heniochus now that there is a treatment in my aquarium?
<No! Please wait>
- I have an aggressive Acanthurus Lineatus (5 inches) and an Apolemichthys Xanthotis Angelfish (4 1/2 inches). Do you think that they could wound him? The Heniochus looks twice as big than the above two fishes (because of his body shape).
<Again, best to wait for now>
- My aquarium is 55 gallons. Is it too small for a big Heniochus? (I though that it is not a very kinetic fish, rather a slow one , and for that reason could be o.k. in my small tank).
<Really yes... too small>
Regards,
Thanassis

Re: Formalin 3 and Methylene blue
Dear Bob,
thanks a lot for your answer. One more question:
You mention "1-3 mg Methylene blue (one to three ml.s of stock solution) per gallon treated for prolonged immersion). ".
What if I use the Methylene blue for freshwater dips of about 4 minutes?
Should I use the 3mg per gallon or even more?
<Yes, quite safe>
I do not know George Reclos, but I will try to find a way to contact him. Do you know his e-mail?
<Likely you can contact him through his website: http://www.rddiagnostics.com/auriga.htm>
I have read that you have published a new book. Can you tell me its title and if when it will be available to get it from Amazon.co.uk, where I have bought also "The conscientious...." ?
<Apparently not sold by the UK part of the company. But is by the parent: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/103-1623087-3559848>
THANKS AGAIN!
Thanassis
<You're welcome my friend. Bob Fenner>

Re: Formalin 3 and Methylene blue
Dear Anthony,
<Anthony is off to hobby and business conferences for the weekend>
my retailer has found somebody who told him that he could provide him with Methylene Blue. He did not mean the packaged form, i.e. small bottles produced by the aquatic medicine industry, but he said he can create the right mix. Could you tell me how the solution is made (for example we know that Formalin 3 is made from 37% formaldehyde). I just want to be sure that he does not make the wrong mix (!...).
<Tried to find John Farrell Kuhn's "Index Medicos" for fish med's with no luck. There are formulations listed in Edward Noga (Fish Disease, Diagnosis and Treatment, and Nelson Herwig's "Fish Diseases"...). "1.4 g to 380 ml of water (= 3.7 mg/ml)..." adding 1-3 mg Methylene blue (one to three ml.s of stock solution) per gallon treated for prolonged immersion). Do have your pharmacist (Do you know the chemist/aquarist George Reclos (Athens)?) contact me if there are further questions. Bob Fenner>
Thanks, Thanassis

Strange illness
Hi Anthony,
<cheers, my friend>
an update with a few comments/questions: first, the longnose has been fully recovered for about 8 days now; a few less spots each day until he was clean;
<very cool... after 2 weeks symptom free you can enjoy a big sigh of relief>
two days later he started eating; nobody else is the system became infected; go figure;
<interesting and good to hear>
like I said initially, it was something strange; thankfully so. On another topic, I have had enough experience with Kick-Ich
and Greenex to comfortably render an opinion on both: With Kick-Ich, there is something that does seem to suppress the disease;
<never to be used as a primary treatment, stimulating at best>
the visible spots will  disappear overnight or in 5 to 6 hours, and for 4 or 5 days the fish will appear to be doing better; then, with little warning, they return en-masse, overwhelm the fish despite other measures (FW, CU, formalin dips) and produce
fatalities in a day or so. This is true even at the new accelerated dosage  recommendations.
<hmmm... not to disagree at face value, but I have studied some aspects of fish pathology at length... took the aquaristic fish pathology course under Gratzek and Blasiola at U. Georgia... you are mistaken about the FW and Formalin. Redundant studies have been done on these treatments regarding their superb efficacy if done correctly. Many/most parasitic infections can be cured by FW dips alone from a bare-bottomed Qt display (siphoning bottom daily as well). The addition of CU or Formalin as a long bath can rid Ich in 8 days. Other pathogens documented just the same>
It also does have a negative impact on some hard and soft corals, although after 20 days of treatment all seem to have recovered.
<OK>
With Greenex, the result is more direct:
<Ha!... Greenex has a reputation for cure or kill. And it is sever on invertebrates despite mfg claims. With the effectiveness of FW and Formalin or Methylene blue in QT... I have no need to recommend Greenex IMO>
it successfully eliminates all parasites - because it generally eliminates the hosts.
<heehee... agreed. Wicked product and easily abused (or hard to use depending on your perspective)>
Bad stuff unless you are treating tough fish!
<much agreed>
Lastly, an unrelated question: among the frozen Mysid brands, which is "cleanest"?  
<Hmmm... good question. I personally don't have a brand preference. Been using PE for a while with no complaints though. Heard of another with slightly higher protein>
too many eyeballs floating around my tanks.  Thanks for all your past help, best wishes to all the crew for a great
holiday and coming year. Steve.
<and the same to you, my friend. With kind regards, Anthony>

Chemicals wiping out the beneficial bacteria
I'm treating in a bare-bottom tank with a sponge filter from previously established tank.
I wonder if any of the following will wipe out the filter and the tank/filter will have to start cycling from the scratch:
- formaldehyde? - malachite green? <Formalin and formalin/malachite solutions are probably too dangerous and may well be disallowed by law in your area, they are in California. These cross-link peptides indiscriminately, destroying any and all proteins they come in contact with. In a very real sense, you're poisoning the "good guys" as well as the "bad". Hopefully the latter faster than the former.
Due to their narrow range of safety, toxicity to livestock and handler, and legal constraints, I would avoid formalin mixtures for pet-fish applications. Malachite green, zinc-free is no longer even used at most government labs and fish hatcheries. Found this on the site>
- chelated copper sulfate? <yes, these chemicals will most likely wipe out the biological filtration and you will have to start cycling over again>
Thank you,<your welcome, IanB>
Luke

Re: Chemicals for treating fish
Should the skimmer be turned off (for how long) when these products are added?<yes, I would turn the skimmer off until the fish that you are treating have been treated>
I've noticed that when I added mal. green the skimmer cup was holding all green liquid after only a few minutes...<yes, the skimmer will take the chemicals right out of the water, the best way to get the chemicals out afterwards is to add a PolyFilter or activated carbon>
Thank you,<your welcome, IanB>
Luke

Quick Cure Medication 6/7/03
Hi I was wondering if I could use A parasite killer called quick cure on my yellow tang it says the ingredients are Formalin and Malachite green? thanks JM
<you certainly can... and the combination of ingredients in this product are one of the very best treatments for external parasites on fishes. However, it cannot/should not like most medications ever be dosed in the main tank (efficacy and contamination of/by the sand/gravel/rocks). Please be sure to only dose and treat animals in a proper bare-bottomed hospital tank. Kind regards, Anthony>

Organi-Cure
   Hi Bob Fenner,
   My name is Skyler Warner, and I live in Southern Oregon.  I was recently reading some of your messages/past emails on the Organi-Cure product.  It seemed that the more I read, the more I heard of disappointment of the product.  However, I may be quoted as a source to say that "Organi-Cure works great."  I had a beautiful Cowfish that had some Ich on its fins and eyes.  When I introduced my second engineer goby (which didn't have Ich), it became "infested" with Ich.  That's when I got concerned.  I asked my boss at Fish World and Exotic Pets in Grants Pass, Oregon what to do and one of his options was the Organi-Cure product.  He gave it to me for free so how could I resist.  The total time that I had to treat the tank (75 gallons) was approximately 1.5 weeks and all fish have survived.  Now that the Ich seems to be gone, I am going to discontinue use.
<Good to hear of your success>
   I do have some questions, however.  Is it OK to place any type(s) of shrimps into the tank now (Cleaner Shrimp, Banded Coral Shrimp, or Fire Shrimp)? or does the copper level have to be much lower or unreadable?
<Should be undetectable... many folks use chemical filters like PolyFilter or activated carbon to remove ongoing residual copper>
Can
multiples go together?
<Can be done in large enough, well decorated quarters... you can find this information on WetWebMedia.com... perhaps the Google search tool or the indices would aid you...>
I do have a snowflake eel, juvenile dragon wrasse, 2
engineer gobies, cowfish, Huma Huma triggerfish, and a large hermit crab.
<Uhh, in which case forget the shrimps... most of the above will consume them in time if not immediately>
   Also, can I keep multiple hermit crabs together?
   I'd appreciate your response,
   Skyler Warner
<Please see WWM. Bob Fenner>

Methylene Blue, Formalin effects
dear  Bob!
would you please let me know the answer of my following questions:
1- it is mentioned that "Methylene blue" that is a common chemical for disinfection of fish egg, also has another function ,so that increase the animal pole of the egg's this correct?
<Yes, a "side-effect">
if is, why the development of animal region of egg is important?
<To enhance development>
2- also, in some reference we read about the use of Formalin (for disinfecting the culture media) for example 12 or 24 hours before introducing the fish or rotifer in the culture). what is the reason?
<To reduce the likelihood of microbial, protozoal competition, disease>
does Formalin loss its effect after these times .doesn't it have any danger for cultured organisms after this time.
<Indeed it does. Depending on many circumstances, BOD, temperature... there might well be sufficient residue to kill all. I would rinse the containers thoroughly before using. Bob Fenner>
regards
Reza

Rid-Ich Overdose? Follow-up (4/2/04)
Steve, <Hi again.>
Thanks a lot. Here are some answers to your questions...
a) The fish were in there for 3 days before the ich epidemic. 
<They may well have brought this ich in with them, just not visible yet.>
b) The QT was empty for a month+ before the fish were introduced.
<I highly doubt any ich was left viable in there.>
c) Yes I had 10 lbs of live rock in the QT for the angel to feed on and tried to salvage it after the mess-up and moved it back to the display. 
<I would advise against LR in QT. Most angels will eat enough frozen, flake, or pellet food to sustain themselves during that period.>
d) QT also had a blue legged hermit crab that wasn't affected.
f) The recommended dosing of rid ick is one teaspoon per 10 gallons. And within parentheses it said 5ml. That's how I ended up with 9ml. I did a 50% water change an hour before the dosing. 
<Well, then you did not exceed the recommended dose. Hard to day why they died. As previously mentioned, I'd suggest more fallow time and patience in re-stocking. Consider adding only one fish at a time to the QT. I know it will take a lot longer, but it decreases the risks of problems.> Thank You. <You're welcome, and good luck.>

Quarantine torture
Hey Bob, thanks for the opportunity to reach help when needed (and GREAT book!!!). Just had a quick question regarding an Emperor angel (6inch) in a 20g QT tank. No matter how hard I try I cannot keep my nitrite levels below 0.25. 
<Okay for the duration of quarantine>
I have tried water changes every day with vacuuming, bacteria (cycle) and nothing seems to keep nitrites down. I even tested immediately after water change and the level barely even moved a bit.
<Your fish is excreting ammonia...about this amount continuously...>
Right now I am treating with malachite green and formalin for parasites because the angel is darting and flashing in the tank with no signs of velvet or white spot, is this the right choice of medicine?
<Actually... no... Much of the darting and flashing is likely due to the very "medicine" being administered... CAREFULLY hold the open bottle near your nose, face... toxic and unpleasant... I would NOT use formalin in this setting, for any purpose>
I refuse to use copper again only as an absolute last resort because I killed a beautiful long nose butterfly from too much copper because of a faulty test kit. And, what can I do to get these nitrates to zero and is 0.25 nitrites ok for a short period of time in QT until I get rid of these parasites?
<Yes... if there are parasites... I would dip the fish... move it to all new water... see if it actually develops spots...>
Please, I need some help I would appreciate it if you could respond whenever you're able to. The angel is hiding a lot and not swimming much but fins aren't clamped he's eating very well and he's alert looking at me through glass, I'm hoping this is normal. Thanks so much Bob.  Jay 
<Jay... from your note here I have little idea of what you're trying to accomplish with this angel... Bob Fenner>

-Cloudy Eyed Angel-
Hey guys,
<Hello>
How are you?
<Recovering well> 
Can formalin create cloudy eyes on an angel when using it in quarantine?<<Definitely can, will, given enough exposure. RMF>>
<Well the actual formalin? Not that I know of. What happens is that the formalin kills off a lot of the beneficial bacteria as well as parasites, so the cloudiness seen in the eyes is because of deteriorating water quality. To help fix this, change out 25% of the water or so and then add some Epsom salt to the water as well using this formula. 1 teaspoon per 5 gallons. This will release the pressure built up behind the eyes and keep them from developing an infection. Hope this helps. Justin (Jager)>