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FAQs on Quinine Compounds Use in Aquariums 1

Related Articles: Use of Biological Cleaners, Aquatic Surgery, The Three Sets of Factors That Determine Livestock Health/Disease

Related FAQs: Quinine Cpd.s/Med.s 2, Quinine Science/Rationale/Use, Sources, Dosing/TreatmentTroubles/Fixing, Accounts/Success Stories & FAQs on: Medications/Treatments 1, Medications/Treatments 2, Medications/Treatments 3Antibiotics/Antimicrobials, Anthelminthics/Vermifuges/Dewormers, Copper FAQs 1, Organophosphates, Epsom/Other Salts, Formalin/Formaldehyde, Furan Compounds, Garlic, Homeopathic Remedies (teas, pepper sauce, other shams...), Malachite Green, Mercury Compounds/Topicals, Methylene Blue, Metronidazole, Sulfas, Treating Disease, Treatment Tanks, Medications/Treatments II, Treating Parasitic Disease, Using Hyposalinity to Treat Parasitic Disease, Garlic UseAntibiotic Use Marine Disease 1, Puffer Disease

Chloroquine phosphate
Alternatively, you may have success securing CP through a veterinary or medical doctor. Greenex: Malachite Green & Quinine HCL (Aquatronics) Quinine Sulfate: http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/

Trying to save my fish; CP f'      9/10/17
I had a group of 5 fish (juvenile Queen, an adult Imperator, a Powder Blue and Achilles tangs and a smaller Blue Jaw Trigger) in my 160 gal QT system, made up of 3 - 55gal tanks plus sump. They have been there since Aug.
12th. They seemed to be doing good at first. They were in lower salinity water for over two weeks ~ 17ppt, temp 78F, pH around 8. I started to slowly bring the parameters up to match my display when I saw Ick break out on the Tangs.
<Very common; as you likely know these two Tang species are VERY susceptible>
I lowered the salinity back down to 17ppt and did 2 treatments of Chloroquine Phosphate (from National Fish Pharmaceuticals) . After a week the trigger died. The Ick seems to have morphed into Amyloodinium
ocellatum - cloudy eyes, shedding slime, patchy white on the Achilles...I'm not sure if the darkening pelvic fin is on the Powder Blue is a symptom of something else.
<Could be sampled, looked at under a 'scope. Perhaps just chemical/physical burn>
The tangs have stopped eating.
<VERY bad>
The two angels are still in better shape - I only see white spots on the eyes and they are still eating well. I gave both tangs a fresh water dip yesterday but didn't see any improvement. I pushed the salinity lower to 14ppt. I am about to do a 25% water change and give another treatment of Chloroquine. Am I missing something?
<The CP may be hurting more than helping here. >
Is there something else I should be doing? Here are some pictures.
<IF these were my fishes, I'd NOT use the quinine, but just drop the spg.
down to 1.010, and hope. They may be too impugned to come back at this point>
I would appreciate any suggestions you might have Thanks,
Mike Spizzirri
<I would have you read re others experiences w/ CP (on WWM) as well. Can be tricky in use: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/QuinTrbFixF.htm
and the other Quinine FAQs files linked above. Bob Fenner>

Prophylactic qt treatment     6/24/17
Hello Bob,
I am currently going through a reboot of my DT (velvet outbreak) and I have 2 QT tanks set up while I leave the DT fallow. As I am treating with CP, I was wondering if I should prophylactically treat for flukes. The fish show
no obvious signs but there is so much misinformation about fish not showing symptoms that I am now paranoid. I have Prazi-pro and API General Cure. I read that CP and Prazi should not be mixed due to oxygen depletion so I
was considering using the GC.
<With adequate aeration these med.s are mixable. You should be able to find flukes in the bottom of a settled pH adjusted freshwater dip/bath... need to look close as they're small and translucent/transparent>
Also, all new incoming fish will be QT and treated with CP and either Prazi or GC. I know you are not a fan of prophylactic treatment,
<Au contraire; I am a huge proponent... of appropriate prophylactic procedures; esp. at the collector/jobber-wholesaler level>

but what should I do if symptoms can be masked.
<Depends on too many factors to elucidate in email. Read over our writings on disease/pathology, books I've penned. Some fish groups, species are to be treated differently, depending on apparent states of health/condition...>
One incoming fish is a wartskin angler which is not a very active fish so it would be nearly impossible to determine reclusive behavior.
<Antennariiform fishes are almost always robust (or dead due to delivery issues) on arrival. I would expedite most all>
Jason Russo
<Robert Fenner>
Re: prophylactic qt treatment    6/25/17

Would you consider 2 airstones w/ a HOB filter in a 55g and 2 airstone w/ a HOB filter in a 20g adequate aeration for a Prazi/CP combination?
I never want to go through this again. This experience has been enough to make me rethink this hobby.
<I understand. When, where in doubt, my practice is to stand back (time, mentally/emotionally), review my position; judge the merits of my actions, feelings. B>

Chloroquine phosphate     6/9/17
Hello - I have a question about Chloroquine phosphate dosing to gain an understanding more than anything. I have read everything I could find on CP and in regards to dosing there are certainly many different instructions.
<You likely know more than I then>
The CP I have is from National Fish Pharmaceuticals. On their package it indicates if you have a tank less than 80 gallons to add 1/4 tsp per 10 gallons of water and add the same dosage every 24 hours with a 25% water
change each time.
For tanks larger than that to dose once and leave in water for 7 days.
Since this is their recommendation I'm following it but would like to better understand how it works (I'm using in a QT tank less than 80 gallons).
My questions are these:
1. In the small tanks if you kept adding the same dose daily with only a 25% water change wouldn't the concentration become too high over the course of 10 days?
<Mmm; no, or at least, not likely. CP is photo-reduced and "used up" over time... goes away in a few days time>
I can't find anything about how CP works but it must not dissipate if for larger tanks it is a 1 and done treatment.
<I too don't know what the difference is in a larger system... other than more (guessed) depth of water that may reduce photo-decomposition>
Any information you know about this I would appreciate hearing. I do plan on calling NFP but also wanted opinions from someone other than who sells the product.
<Yes, I would... and barring other input from them, I'd treat larger systems as smaller; per gallonage and water changing>
2. I have read in several places it is only effective if you combine with hyposalinity. What is your opinion on this?
<About as effective w/ or w/o>
3. I have read mixed information you should have lights off and others say it does not matter. The instructions from NFP only say to not use UV. Your thoughts?
<Better to leave lights off, definitely UV>
4. Would this be effective treatment for black spot disease?
<The Turbellarian Paravortex? No>
I saw in your information that "literature says it might be efficacious" but do you have specific experience with it working? I'm hoping to treat both Ich and black spot with the same treatment.
<I would not be concerned re Paravortex; not virulent; more of a low-grade space parasite>
5. Does treatment with CP take care of flukes or should Praziquantel still be used?
<I would use Vermifuges against all "worm" issues and not anti-malarials>
Thank you.
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Re: Chloroquine phosphate     6/10/17

Thank you for your response. To follow up with my conversation with NFP and for additional information on this medication for anyone else using it, this is what they said:
1. The water changes are strictly to keep ammonia/nitrite under control.
If water parameters are fine you don't have to do a water change.
<All right>
2. In a small QT with a small number of fish the dosage could be reduced down and not done daily.
<? The dosage (units per volume) should stay the same... In fact, I would also administer the CP via food (simultaneously)... have you searched/read on WWM Re? Please do>
You could dose the recommended amount once every 3 days and replace the correct amount based on the % water change being done.
3. Lighting could be kept on if very low and no direct natural light. If you don't have the ability to lower lights turn them off.
4. Hyposalinity is not a factor and isn't necessary for this treatment to be effective.
5. Not effective for Paravortex.
I did not ask about large systems as while my DT is 300 gallons it is a reef so I would never use this in it.
<I agree w/ this last. IF used; only via foods: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/QuinDosingF.htm
I appreciate your comment on not being concerned with Paravortex... makes me feel better.
<An olde roomie, Mike Kent, worked on this flatworm... a bunch of years back... Led to MSc and later, college teaching in Oregon.>
Probably why I can't find that much information about how to treat it.
<See WWM, Ed Noga's tomes, Bob Goemans and Lance Ichinotsubo's book for a bit more>
My LFS said that it often will just go away on its own and also not to be too concerned about it.
<I do concur. Bob Fenner>

Eel (Gymnothorax melatremus ) won't eat on CP for 3 weeks      5/13/17
I recently had to QT my Kole Tang, Harlequin Tusk, and dwarf golden Moray eel (Gymnothorax melatremus) due to a velvet outbreak. I've been treating the tank with 45mg/gal of CP. Everyone looks good. No more flashing and both fish are eating. The tank is BB with PVC fittings.
Now to the problem, my eel hasn't eaten (that I've seen) for 3 weeks.
<Might be the CP exposure; I'd stop it now>
He ate a big chunk of mixed food the day before the transfer, because I assumed that no one would eat until they settled in. He is VERY active. He swims all around the tank at night. During the day he hangs out in his PVC
pipe elbow. If I try to feed him, he sometimes takes a sniff and then seems like he's scared of it. I was wondering if it's the CP messing with his sense of smell because of the metal taste.
<Something like this>
At what point do I worry? I was thinking about putting the carbon in the filter and starting water changes. Is 21 days enough to kill velvet (or Ich, but I am confident that it was velvet)?
<I'd soak favored foods in appetite stimulant; such as SeaChem Appevite... and keep offering daily>
I've tried fresh oysters, mussels, squid, clam, etc. He seemed most interested in a silverside before the tusk stole it. In the DT he ate every 3-4 days. When he was swimming around the other night I tried to feed him
thinking he was hunting, but he just hid when I opened the lid.
<Morays, most eels of "good (index of) fitness, can go for long periods sans food. Don't give up. Bob Fenner>
Re: Eel (Gymnothorax melatremus ) won't eat on CP for 3 weeks      5/13/17

Thanks for the quick reply. I will add carbon tonight and start partial water changes with un-medicated water. My original plan was a 28 day CP treatment to be safe, but do you agree that a 21 day regimen was enough?
<I myself would stop now... another week may be more deleterious than advantageous. Bob Fenner>
Re: Eel (Gymnothorax melatremus ) won't eat on CP for 3 weeks      6/5/17

Greetings. I thought I would write to give you some good news.
<Ahh; always appreciated>

I know you usually only hear from people when things are wrong. I have been seeing things recently that led me to believe that my eel was eating. This morning, I finally saw him eat some food. I was so relieved to see that,
and now I feel much better about my quarantine and fallow period. I only hope that the 21 days was enough to eradicate the parasite that was on the fish.
I think it was because no one is showing any signs of flashing the way that they were before. Thanks for all the advice. You are a treasure to the hobby.
<Cheers Jas. Bob Fenner>

Cryptocaryon and Chloroquine Phosphate     5/9/17
Hello from Romania,
<Howdy from California Andrei>
I hope you are all well. And thank you again for your valuable help you provide for all of us.
<Thank you and welcome>
About my current problem : because of a terrible accident with my calcium reactor in September I have lost everything in the tank so I took that opportunity to restart from scratch in my 350 gallons system consisting of DT, and one refugium and 4 sumps filled with live rock in the basement .
So I dried and washed all the rock, changed the sand in the refugium, etc.
When everything was ready, I decided to start the system in the following way :
not having any critters at all, I placed all the system in hyposalinity (SG at 1.008 - 1.009 ) with the plan to fully stock with fishes, and then keep it like that for other 3 weeks and then get the SG at sea levels and begin to stock with corals and invertebrates. I also have at hand enough Chloroquine Phosphate to treat all the system if necessary. ( you have no idea hw hard is the find CP here) . So I begun to put fishes in : Acanthurus Leucosternon, Acanthurus Achilles, Acanthurus Sohal, Paracanthurus Hepatus, Zebrasoma Xanthurum, Zebrasoma Flavescens x2 , Centropyge Bicolor, Centropyge Loriculus x2 , Centropyge bispinosus, Odonus Niger, Pomacanthus Imperator, Pomacanthus Xanthometopon and some wrasses, gobies etc. For a period of weeks while I added fishes, all the Acanthurus were spotless.
Problem : I begin to lose some fishes ( achilles, one of the flavescens, the loriculus ) apparently the ones that were not eating active enough or were shy, or were the target of aggression. But I am not so sure anymore.
<Oh Andrei! How I wish you had added a handful of hardy Damsels to first check the viability of your system. It may be that the issue/s here are non-pathogenic>
The fishes that died didn't had any sigh of the disease, but the last week I have seen some white spots on the Hepatus and some on the Leucosternon, even though the latter eats voraciously ( just like the Sohal or Xanthurum or Imperator). I am planning to add some more fishes that are on the way :
Pygoplites Diacanthus, Zanclus Cornutus and Chelmon Rostratus. ( I know they sound pretentious, but before the disaster I have kept all these fishes for years and in good conditions ) So, what do you think I should do : stay at this low SG, add all the fishes and stick with the plan, considering that the spots I see are introduced with the last fishes and when they will reach the right moment in their life cycle they will day and the hypo works?
<Hyposalinity rarely (never) brings about permanent Cryptocaryon eradication>
Is the low SG that is causing fishes loss, or maybe the crypt that seems to be resistant to the low SG?
<Likely low SG has something to do w/ overall stress; and this is the root "cause" here>
And if the crypt is resistant, is there any other reason I should keep low SG? Or use the CP, turn off the lights and
If I use the CP should I do it at this SG or wait until I get at higher SG?
Should I use the CP now or after the other fishes arrive ( in about a week ).
<I'd NOT add more livestock for now. I would NOT pour the CP into the system, but administer it to the fishes via foods... as gone over in Noga (I and II) and on WWM>
I know that these are many questions, but it was the best way to describe my indecision, and maybe some others will benefit from the clarification of these problems. Also, the way I planned to start this tank, until now it seemed for me the perfect and safest way in the right conditions, but I am not so sure anymore, maybe you help me clear this out.
Thank you very much again,
Andrei Sbarcea/Romania
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>

Ammonia/ CP and Puffers       10/13/16
Hello Bob/Crew,
I have a situation that I'm hoping you can assist with. Tank is a 125 gal Fowlr with Dogface puffer, clown trigger, Harlequin Wrasse and Dragon Moray (E. pardalis)
<Trouble in future... first w/ the Clown Trigger... be on guard, alert for bite marks>

30 gallon sump
Big skimmer
Media reactor with GFO ( not running right now )
Ok so here's my situation. Trigger and wrasse can down with ich. Treated with Ich Shield (CP%?)
Ich cleared up.
But my puffer came down with a spot on his side ( which we decided was probably an injury from a hose syphon.
<Ah yes; VERY likely>
I was monitoring the water and doing 20 gallon water changes weekly. But just yesterday I noticed the Moray breathing harder then normal and not in his usual location. Water test reviled ammonia at .25
nitrite 0 and Nitrate 0
<How is NO3 rendered thus?>

Oh yeah so the puffers side wound that looked like a bacterial infection spread to one of his eyes and until yesterday was hiding. The puffer ate last night without any issues ( krill and squid).
<... see WWM re the nutrition of Tetraodontids. Want to avoid Vitamin B deficiency syndrome/s>
I dosed heavy with Prime the first day I noticed the ammonia
<Won't solve the issue. You have too much life for this volume, your filtration; use of treatments.... Need to "thin the herd" and/or add redundant bio-filtration, circulation, aeration>

until I could do a water change that evening. All was good for a few days.
But today I have .25 again. Do you think the CP caused a die off in the live rock hence elevating the ammonia?
<Quite likely; yes>
Or do you think what ever is effecting the puffer is causing it?
<Stress could be a factor here too>
I am going to do another water change tonight and add some beneficial bacteria.
Unfortunately I do not have a quarantine tank available to remove the puffer.
Any other thoughts?
<The above... Bob Fenner>
Thank you Brad
Re: Ammonia/ CP and Puffers      10/14/16

Thank you Bob
<Welcome Brad>
And yes I agree large bio load. I'm the first to admit that I have an impulse buying issue. Originally the 6 ft tank was just going to be home for the moray.
<Too small even for just this>
But a 16" dragon looked lonely( I know he won't be arhat diazepam for long) and the puffer was a rescue from another friends tank. Big regrets. I do enjoy the trigger for now at 5" but am expecting a monster in the future. Have you seen them cause major issues with morays?
<Oh yes; Some individuals are not overtly aggressive; some others will tolerate NOTHING else living in their system>
I plan on thinning the herd to just those two individuals in the near future ( as soon as puffer is healthy and I can find a responsible owner to take them).
One more thing I had a hermit crab that disappeared shortly after the Ich Shield dose. Maybe rotting away hidden causing ammonia spike.
And to clarify I'm using an API test kit with a reading of 0.25.
<I'd get, use a better test kit brand>
Thank you again for all of your help.
<Welcome. BobF> 

Re: Dormant Cryptocaryon?        4/30/16
Hi Bob,
<Hey Matt>
So we had a nice email conversation last year regarding crypto and quinine compounds...
Do you by chance have any recommendation on a source for Chloroquine phosphate or quinine sulfate?
<Yeah; they're posted on WWM: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/QuinSourceF.htm
For the last year I have been purchasing Chloroquine from some guy in SF through his website kmaintl.com. His stuff is a great algaecide, but it doesn't reliably work on fish disease for shit. I was speaking with a pharmacist and told him the pricing that I was paying, and the pharmacists said there was no way that the Chloroquine I was using was anywhere near pure.
<May be>
So now I'm in a holding pattern using SeaChem ParaGuard and Metronidazole to clean up the disease in my QT tanks that should have been knocked out by 4 weeks of Chloroquine.
<Your experience (lack of cure) is quite common... See the linked files above the citation>
Thank you in advance,
<W. B>

Dealing with exceptionally hardy strain of crypt?    Impt. notes re Quinines; old Amquel toxicity           11/12/15
​Hi Crew,
I've been happily reading your site for several years now and am grateful for all of the information. Ever since ich entered my 170g reef almost two years ago before I learned to properly QT, I've been fighting it with just about every method in the book, including many "reef-safe" snake oils, but also QT with hypo, Chloroquine, and quinine...sometimes keeping the fish in
the DT while removing LR and corals, others removing fish to QT and letting the DT go fallow.
<With you so far>
I've blamed failures on everything from not keeping medication levels high enough, to keeping the QT and DT to close together so that aerosolized crypt could move between the two systems.
<Interesting speculation. More likely resident/residual infestation. Most systems have this/them>
I've also demonstrated through studies in a lab with good equipment that Chloroquine degrades super fast leaving behind an inactive molecule in my tank (I was monitoring by HPLC , and I believe, based on changes in CPQ behavior over a year, that a microbe capable of detoxifying Chloroquine either entered or evolved in my system...more about that another time, but high levels of the degradation do appear to be toxic to Zebrasoma tangs).
<I REALLY encourage you to publish your data, explanations>

I now know that quinine is perfectly stable in my system and that the concentration remains constant after dosing regardless of skimmer or keeping lights on. It clearly wipes out any visible ich on my fish within 24 hours and prevents the return until removed. Unfortunately, as you already know, it dos nothing for the inactive cyst stage, and I find that certain tangs (particularly Zebrasoma) begin to show signs of drug toxicity after about a week (labored breathing, failure to eat, general listlessness) but they recover fully withi8n a day of being moved to a system without quinine.
<I have suspected such as well>

SO....I still have ich. I just completed a 13 week fallow (no new coral or other additions), my QT and DT are far apart, precautions were taken to heat-sterilize anything that went from one tank to another, etc. I moved a Kole tang with no visible signs of ich from QT to the DT.
<Note the qualifier, "no visible signs">
He had been at high quinine concentration for the previous five days and was allowed an hour in the quinine containing water during the transfer process, just in case there were any random cysts that had just hatched so that the new hatchlings would have time to die from high drug exposure.
About a week later, the first small blotch appeared, looking nothing like ich.
<You should sample, check under a microscope>
Couple more blotches (as opposed to raised sugar grains) appeared here and there until this morning when I clearly saw some raised sugary grains. So, it's back to QT for him, and I'll have quinine in the tank to make sure that anything on him dies before it can re-encyst and live to infect another fish.
Finally to my question: Would you let this DT go fallow for 6 months?
<As long as possible, practical... more likely, with no desired life present, I'd bleach all and restart it>
A year? Or sacrifice your corals, cook your live rock, empty the DT, and go over every component with a hair dryer to make sure not so much as a single drop of water remains anywhere in the general vicinity?
<No; I would not go this far. Just as likely to (re) import Crypt w/ new fishes>
I have also considered periodically placing an ich-resistant fish in an isolation box within the tank in case this strain requires fish hormones to break dormancy. I realize all of this might seem extreme, but I seem to have a real survivor here and the theory of crypt weakening after a year of successive generations seems to either be wrong, or to not apply to this strain.
The good news is that my fish seem to be real survivors....though I did lose many to a bad batch of Amquel plus, which I will write about separately.
<To/for browsers; DO give your polyvinylpyrrolidone solutions (commercial dechloraminators often contain) a "good whiff" and if they smell, toss rather than use them>
I would greatly appreciate any advice here.
Thank you
<I'd have you read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/reefparfaq2.htm
and a few of the linked files above.... for solace, input. I'd strive to "keep balance" in your/fishes favor here; through optimized care: environment and nutrition; use of cleaners.... Bob Fenner>

Chloroquine/sulfathiazole or Chloroquine/Cuprazin(50%)copper, formalin, malachite, NNS; Crypt     10/7/15
Dear crew,
In my aquarium, that have for about 5 years now, I have a Naso for 5yrs , one blueface for 2yrs, one Apolemichthys trimaculatus for 4years now, one Zebrasoma flavescens (around 10 years now, came from another aquarium I had) and now a Choerodon fasciatus from Australia.
Well, this 500liters tank is a mixed of fish, inverts and some corals.
Very good water quality, very good light, very good skimmer and for some extra control some months ago a 55W UV (AquaMedic).
Well the problem is i have some, very few signs of crypto. The Naso have one eye with a little cloudy white circle one one eye but very little, already for 2 weeks aprox. Only with the 250W on we can see this signs.
Yes, the Choerodon fasciatus is for sure the reason, maybe indirectly. Of course, 4 weeks on quarantine tank before i put this fish at the DP tank, at the first time he show some stress, after two days he went again for the qt tank and one week later he went again in de DP tank, with more confidence.
Well, even with these measures, he wake up some ict of the thank and the pectoral fins of this fish are now with some white areas.
So, all inverts and coral went to another tank (yes, these fishes are my top concern and I prefer to treat the DP tank like I did some years ago and after treatment, water changes, SeaChem resigns and after one month, the inverts and coral can go again, with some live rock (also quarantined) to.
In another situations for sure the fish should go to another tank, be treated and the display for at least 8 weeks without any fish. In this situation, the Naso elegans is already with 30cm, and I prefer to maintain all the fish in the same tank)
I changed the specific gravity to around 1.012, and Chloroquine at 15mg/liter (i have a kern 440 21N to weigh fish drugs).
<Ah, good>
After two days, no much betters signs in any. No Ammonia at the thank and all SeaChem resigns was retired, uv off etc.
When I change water I add the proportional amount of Chloroquine.
Well because I still have no positive signs of, I am thinking of also put half dose of Cuprazin (have copper, formalin and malachite) or at least, add sulfathiazole with the Chloroquine.
Normally when the fish have cloudy eyes or some skin red areas like one Zebrasoma some years ago, I use sulfathiazole, alone, at rate of 1gr /100 Liters for 3 days. Do you know if sulfathiazole can be used at this ratio, simultaneously with 15mg/liter of Chloroquine (Resochina)?
<It can be.... but I'd first or only try adding the CP to foods rather than the water... at a higher dose possibly... as the real drug strength does vary quite a bit.... and getting the drug INTO the fishes is what you want>
Many thanks
Manuel Dias
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Re: Chloroquine/sulfathiazole or Chloroquine/Cuprazin(50%)copper,formalin,malaquite     10/8/15

Dear Bob,
Thanks for your reply.
I started with Chloroquine in the food (16mg over 1gr of food).
<I see>
Dissolved in water and put it in dry ocean nutrition formula pellets, Nori and even in shrimp for the Choerodon, however, after initial days, no signs of any result. Al least visible. The Naso elegans with one eye a little cloudy and also with one or two white spots in one eye.
<Do you have access to a simple microscope? I'd sample (scrape) some of these spots off and take a look. May not be Crypt; but possibly Flukes, other Protozoans....>
The Choerodon a little worst with the front fins with some cloudy areas and the Apolemichthys had to receive a 15min freshwater bath. But day yes day no I still put Chloroquine in food.
I am convicted that if I put all fishes in que QT tanks soon all this symptoms go away but, these fishes in particular are somehow difficult fishes to change tank.
For example the blueface, some years ago, because he change from the tank, stayed with lymphocitose at such level I really thought about euthanasia. I had difficult only to see the fish so was the size of the nodules. Well, very quiet tank, only for him, scraped a couple times with iodine after (betadine) and weeks later all nodules had gone.
<Good; cleaner organisms often work as well>
Since that time and years after, never happened again beside the virus if still there for sure. (and well this angel is now strong, the dominant fish of the tank, but, the Naso do not have afraid of him, and neither the more than 10 years old Zebrasoma flavescens. I have in another aquarium another Flavescens that I bought, already adult, 15 years ago. So, I do not know how many years they live but for my experience, between 15 and 20 years for sure.
So I´m afraid of moving this fishes out of DT.
I will try Cuprazin at half dose
<Only full doses are worthwhile, and need to be measured, re-dosed at least twice daily.... absorbed by carbonate substrate, rock... and removed by skimming, UV....>
and start skimmer at low power but with the cup (the skimmer is always at full power during treatment but the water goes all again into the tank, just to help to maintain a good dissolved O2) , and I will continue with Chloroquine in food and water, SG at 1,012 and 27ºC.
I will give news (good news I hope)
<Me too>
At Cuprazin bottle (concentrate professional 1 liter) it says do not use in systems containing sharks, rays, harlequin Tuskfish (Choerodon fasciatus)
<Wrasses, Labrids don't "like" copper exposure, but.... better than losing the fish. Keep monitoring, and dosage at 0.15-0.30 maximum>
... well when this fish arrived, was in quarantine, and during that time, for at least 6 days he was with cooper, formalin and malachite at half dose... Do you Bob, have some testimonial regarding intolerance of fasciatus to cooper, formalin or green malachite?
<I do; but only anecdotal: HAVE treated this wrasse with all these. ARE sensitive; NEED to monitor and KEEP your eye on the specimens being treated. BobF>
Many thanks
Re: Chloroquine/sulfathiazole or Chloroquine/Cuprazin(50%)copper,formalin,malaquite     10/8/15

Hi Bob,
Thanks again,
Since early 90´s I have saltwater reef fishes and corals but this is the first time I have one Choerodon Fasciatus. From Australia with al least 20cm is beautiful. The largest I ever saw. He is able to eat a small crab or destroy a shrimp is seconds but, do not treat any of the others fishes even if them push him out of their zone or even when the blueface make the move (and noise) trying to bite a little the caudal fin of the fasciatus, he only swim a little and do not bother responding. So I do not know if these specie is like this but at least this fish, beside those teeth, are very gentle al least for now.
<Most are peaceful toward other fishes>
Yes, I have a CETI TOPIC with 0.1 , 10, 40 and 100/1.25 oil immersion lens but this cloudy eye or the cloudy fins are very difficult to scrap because there is very little to scrap. The blueface are either with a little cloudy area (1mm) in the center of one eye.
<Scrape near the eye, but not the actual lens itself>
Sometimes I cut some piece of fins for example but in this case the amount is very little.
Regarding copper I have very difficult to trust SeaChem or JBL tests enough. I´m afraid the small colour variations are not reliable enough and I do not want to overdose.
<For what you have invested; I'd be looking into better assays. IF you want/like colorimetric SEE here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/martstkitfaqs.htm
Look for Hach, Merck....>
And accepting that this may not be the right way, past years I had good results with half doses and low SG and changing fishes between small plastic containers or aquariums each 24 hours. But yes, I never had absolute certain in any of my tanks that I had exterminate for good this crypto parasite.
<Me neither>
Only when the fish are really at danger and that is very rare, I change them almost daily with new water and new dose of cooper like the manufacturer suggest or with stock solution of 4.0 gr distilled water with 0,25 of acid citric but, .
So in QT tanks, I usually put them in low SG, and a little of formalin, copper and malachite in the water and perform when needed some baths, but not much. Days after Metronidazole and if need, one week later neomycin.
I don´t know if for example Hanna Instruments already have a digital cooper test ...
<Can look.... have a few.... here's a suitably low-range: http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/hanna-instruments/chemical-test-kits/single-parameter/hi-3856.htm
But these fishes are in treatment in my DP tank... for good or bad.....
If these cloudy areas may not be crypto, but flukes or other Protozoans like you wrote , what is the best treatment?
<.... have to know "what" you're treating....>
I will continue with Chloroquine in food and water or can I do something else?
<I might add a standard dose (one shot/time) of Metronidazole and Praziquantel here as well. Bob Fenner>
Re: Chloroquine/sulfathiazole or Chloroquine/Cuprazin(50%)copper,formalin,malaquite     10/8/15

"I might add a standard dose (one shot/time) of Metronidazole and Praziquantel here as well "Metronidazole 700mg/100liter for 3 days and Praziquantel 250mg/100g food over one week?
The tank is with Chloroquine 15mg/liter , Chloroquine food day yes day no, and Cuprazin half dose. So, I will buy decent cooper test kit (have to see it it reads sulfate cooper, chelated or complexed cooper from SeaChem Cupramine) but in the meantime, I will take your advise that I really appreciate Bob whatever the results will be, and simultaneously to Chloroquine and Cuprazin already there, I will add Metronidazole 700mg/100liter for 3 days and Praziquantel 250mg/100g food over one week?
Correct? Partial change in water for example tomorrow, Metronidazole and after 3 days another partial water change always maintaining some Cuprazin and 15mg/liter Chloroquine.
<Real good. B>
Re: Chloroquine/sulfathiazole or Chloroquine/Cuprazin(50%)copper, formalin, Malachite      10/9/15

Dear Bob,
Not good news
After one day of metro in the water the fishes are swimming slowly and doing everything slowly, the Naso and the Choerodon are near the sand and the blueface and the Apolemichthys also have both eyes cloudy (not much but cloudy) and in the center of each eye, a small fluke.
<CHANGE the water out; stat!>

Praziquantel only arrive maybe Monday so I do not think that any of this drugs I added are doing good , except for a the few signs of crypto that are all gone.
The Choerodon are literally on the sand only move if i put the hand near the glass and the Naso swimming in the same spot one inch above the sand. The others are all swimming in slow motion.
Maybe it´s a good idea too start running the skimmer, SeaChem resigns to remove copper, Chloroquine etc, and try another drug like sulfathiazole maybe.
I am in the mood of put theses fishes in que other small aquariums I have only with new water without any drug.
What you think?
<Do the massive water change NOW. B>
Re: Chloroquine/sulfathiazole or Chloroquine/Cuprazin(50%)copper, formalin, malachite
Already scraped in the eyes, fins, body, seen on microscope here and in one Public Aquarium 15 minutes after samples were collected, with a biologist I known from many years, and nothing relevant was detect.
<Interesting; so I take it this situation is non-pathogenic>

Anomaly clean but this can be expected given the drugs entered. I´m now changing a good percentage of water, and no drugs besides Praziquantel Monday.
<Good. B>
Re: Chloroquine/sulfathiazole or Chloroquine/Cuprazin(50%)copper, formalin, malachite       10/10/15

The fasciatus in the morning went to another aquarium. Now is back because the main aquarium is suffering a 80% water change.
Many thanks Bob
<As many welcomes. B>
Re: Chloroquine/sulfathiazole or Chloroquine/Cuprazin(50%)copper, formalin, malachite       10/10/15

80% change done.
Still a little of Artemia with Spirulina (TMC) from the morning food available, a little into the tank and all except Choerodon eating... Well I really love saltwater fishes.. Naso some hours ago, outside water , scraped and scraped, water change and is already eating .. My lovely fishes...
Good weekend..
<And you as well. BobF>
Re: Chloroquine/sulfathiazole or Chloroquine/Cuprazin(50%)copper,formalin,malaquite     10/12/15

Hi Bob,
Today, Monday, all fishes are doing well, swimming and eating like nothing has happened.
They are better but some of them are still with a little of cloudy eyes.
Only can be seen with 250W HQI switch on.
Today will start with Praziquantel at food and if this do not work, next Monday I will try Sulphatiazole 1,0g /100 Liters for 3 days.
Best regards
<Real good. B>

Chloroquine Phosphate    10/7/15
Before I begin, I am continuing to attempt research before, further, application of Mr. G's anti-parasitic fish caviar. The active ingredient is Chloroquine phosphate but without a percentage listed, as well as vitamins, amino acids and garlic. I am trying to treat what appears to be classic marine ich, crypt parasite. It is limited to a few spots on the single hippo(regal) tang that was freshwater dipped but not quarantined, kill me now.
<You're learning; don't give up now>
He is a smallish member of the tank, eats voraciously, makes use of cleaner shrimp and aside from spattering of parasite appears healthy. The only other fish inhabitants are two tank raised ocellaris clowns and a yellow watchman goby with no symptoms after two weeks. There will not be any more fish added, ever, if we can pull thru this calamity. However there are a variety of corals and invertebrates. So this concoction purports that it is entirely "reef safe" but it seems counter intuitive that any chemical could avoid complications.
<You are correct here; NONE are completely "safe">
The directions state to feed this slurry, as much as fish will consume in 3-5 minutes, for three weeks. I fed a few drops to gauge response and all the fish gobbled it down. I only did this once but would like to boost the tang with the included vitamins and such for further health and immunity concerns. If the Chloroquine is contraindicated perhaps an immunity boosting supplement?
<Yes; a good idea; always... akin to vitamin prep.s for humans>
He eats frozen mysis and algae sheets currently. Do you have any experience with this product?
<I do not personally. Almost always I encourage people to buy CP or other drug/s to make their own mixtures>
Is it different than quinine(when using search indices for Chloroquine these quinine faqs repeatedly recur)?
<There are a few different quinine compounds used, of use; only one Chloroquine (di) Phosphate>
Are there foreseeable dangers if any of the product were to get by the fish(or after digestion)?
<Minimal; acceptable dangers>
The lfs would quarantine the fish in hyposalinity but the stress on the surgeonfish might be it's undoing and as far as I have read the parasite now exists in my tank. As usual yours is the opinion I most highly regard, and this is yet another instance where a quarantine tank would have averted disaster. Regrettably reacting.
<You seem to understand the situation. Don't catastrophize.... won't help. Focus on your positive actions, probable outcomes. Bob Fenner>

Ich/Puffers and Hypo   2/21/15
Hey crew, thanks for doing what you do!
<A pleasure, honor and life-fulfilling to share>
Question, I see that you don't recommend hypo treatment for Cryptocaryon (SW "Ich"). In the case of Holocanthus puffers, copper treatment is suggested to be potentially very harmful.

I'm just doing the freshwater dip now and heading to the quarantine tank.
Was set to hypo, but if you don't recommend hypo, what would you recommend for Holocanthus that you would consider a safe, effective treatment?
<Chloroquine phosphate is best currently. Use the search tool on any page on WWM...>

I did do a search using some terms but didn't come up with something (probably just didn't do it right!)
Thanks very much,
Scott Goorland
<Welcome. Bob Fenner> 
Re: re: Ich/Puffers and Hypo
Bob as a ps- I know in my last note I went from the no hypo/copper to some level, but just trying to find something prophylactic till I get my hands on the right stuff.... Thanks so much again
<Figured, but thank you for this clarification. BobF>
Re: Ich/Puffers and Hypo
Bob, thanks so so much for your super fast reply! I've read your articles and books for what seems to be a very long time! (I was a U of Miami grad in the 90s from the Marine Science school, went a different direction but never left the love of it!) I've read up before on Chloroquine, hear super things about it. Your support of it is even referenced in a Pufferforum
post. I even was able to get some Dr G's which i soaked shrimp in and feed the puffer with it while I got the QT set. Of course, Dr. G's only provides an internal medication, and does not treat the external parasite in the tank. That would require dosing.
<?... the quinine does treat for external Protozoans>
The problem I've had is that I can't seem to find anyone that carries it.
<... See here:
Most of the LFS's have never even heard of it. And the one that sold me the Dr G's, who swears that Chloroquine does wonders, doesn't carry it because he's just start up and dealing with start up costs. I can't quite understand why if it's as effective as I've read, it isn't fully commercialized.
<Meh... newer tech; the regulations... expense of start ups; lack of momentum...>
I'm going to see if I can find it somewhere, I haven't had much success on the web either. Any thoughts on where to find a product?
The LFS guy is trying to order some for me from a place in Gainesville, FL (we're in West Palm Beach) if he can. But he says it will be until Thursday before he could get any in. (he did say the market for this should open up, in his opinion it's been limited to commercial operations).
In the meantime I was going to try one of two options to get things going for the puffer. I dipped him in fresh water last night on the way to the QT for 10 min.s. 'Most' of the Crypto came off. He's swimming happily in the QT and begging for food. (note, all the other scaled fish will be placed in a separate QT and copper dosed, and the DT left fallow for 6 weeks). I am considering starting either a hypo treatment combined with a daily formalin dip and daily 50% bottom vacuumed water changes; or a half dose Cupramine regime, which I've read can be effective against crypto and if slowly dosed up correctly is safe for puffers (of course, keeping a close eye on levels and behavior to make sure). Any thoughts on these as
prophylactic while waiting for a Chloroquine supply?
Thanks again,
Scott Goorland
Re: Ich/Puffers and Hypo
Got it! Fish Pharm CP. Not cheap but worth it! Will keep extra on hand (and thus also support the market growth!) Do you have dosing instructions on WWM?
If so I can do a search, or I can contact fishPharm. Will also look at that NLS Ich Shield Powder, seems to contain chloroquinine as a dip. Re your question of why I mentioned Dr G's for internal, what I meant to say (I probably could have said better) is as I understand it, the product works on the fish itself (internally and externally), but not on the tank water in the QT where the crypto will still remain unless I somehow treat that as well?
<Don't understand this statement... but quinines are not effective on free-swimming and off-host intermediates as far as I'm aware. B>
Thanks again for all you do Bob
Re: Ich/Puffers and Hypo

Hoping to help spread the word, here's another supplier I found, no word on quality:
50-63-5 | Chloroquine diphosphate salt, 98% |
N4-(7-Chloro-4-quinolinyl)-N1,N1-dimethyl-1,4-pentanediamine diphosphate
salt | J64459 | Alfa Aesar| Alfa Aesar
| 50-63-5 | Chloroquine diphosphate salt, 98% | N4-(7-Chlo...Hazard
Statements ...
| View on www.alfa.com
<Thanks. B>
Re: Ich/Puffers and Hypo
As I understand it, I can treat the fish with CP foods, but even with treatment if the off host intermediates are still in the water, unless I eradicate the off host forms as well, they'll just keep attacking the host.
If quinines don't treat off host intermediates, won't the problem just continue as a cycle until I find some way to treat those as well? Scott
<A few approaches can work here: Moving hosts to non-infested systems serially... in actual practice, IF one is dealing w/ a single (not multiple, over-lapping) generations of Protozoans, eradicating those on the host fishes generally effects a system cure. Reducing the numbers and viability of parasites off-host can be done in numerous ways... B>
Re: Ich/Puffers and Hypo
Now that is great! Looking forward to the employment of the method! Thanks
again for all. Scott G.
<Ah, welcome. BobF>

Two questions. NLS Quinine product; Cephalopholis stkg., sel.      2/11/15
hey bob,
I have read you are a fan of quinine based Meds for ich as opposed to hypo.
What do you think of the new life spectrum product "ich shield powder"? It is supposedly Chloroquine phosphate.
<Don't have any personal experience with this product, but know the owner of the company (Pablo Tepoot) to be an honest, competent person>
Also, I asked my lfs to bring in a bigger miniatus grouper a few weeks ago, and he brought in that's 6 to 7 inches.
Does that side grouper translate better than a smaller one?
<Mmm; no... a three-four inch specimen is ideal... Unless you have large/r tankmates already>
Also, does it really make a difference with them if they are indo pacific, vs. Sri Lanka or Fiji? Not concerned color wise, simply health and hardiness.
<Just not P.I. or Indo... all where else are superior. Bob Fenner>
Re: Two questions     2/11/15
Thanks bob. Is that quinine sulfate or Chloroquine phosphate you prefer?
<See WWM re>

I see it is not easy to get a hold of, wonder if the fish pHarm. crypto pro is any good? 
I will ask lfs if he knows locale of grouper. It came from quality marine, so he may not even know.
I can almost definitively say source is huge. My gray and blue angel from a month ago are doing well, as they were from Florida, caught and shipped. A year ago from California, dead in a week.
Re: Two questions... more groping re CP        2/12/15

Ok, I see you are more a fan of Chloroquine phosphate.
<Ah yes>
Now the tricky question, without a vet script, do you know of any place in US that it can be obtained?
<.... this too is posted, archived in a separate page "Sources...."
Re: Two questions       2/12/15

I looked thru "links" section, but I am guessing it is not found there.
<... the search tool on every page...>
I will keep searching with bar, but if you can't point me in the right direction I would appreciate it.
<.... http://wetwebmedia.com/QuinSourceF.htm
Re: Two questions

Ok I found it. It lists national fish pharm as one. Would you use. In my shoes, the crypto pro, or just the plane Chloroquine phosphate they sell?
The guy I spoke with there said they were pretty similar.
Thanks bob
<.... read on>
Re: Two questions

Hey there Bob.,
So I came to the conclusion that the guy was incorrect, and crypto pro is quinine sulphate, and the Chloroquine phos is just that.
I see the latter is easier on fish, would you consider this source (nfp) a quality place, or would you pay a vet to write a rx?
<Don't know; have confidence; but appears to be a real source. The compound, purity should be identical>
Also my fowlr ( display which I will e treating) is currently 1.023 sg.
Would you suggest doing a water change bringing sg lower, say 1.018 or 1.019 before I start using the drug? ( not me personally, but in my tank)
Thank you
Re: Two questions... CP        2/13/15

<And you>
Truly scary he does not know the difference .
I imagine for my tank, 25 grams would suffice, if I plan on two doses (20 mg per gallon x 160 total gallons = 12,800 msg, or 12.8 grams, times 2 doses 25 and change, well maybe should go for bigger size.
I won't bring salinity that low, but being instant ocean just went up ten dollars per 200 gal box, maybe lowering it to 1.020 and keeping it there entirely will be easier on fish breathing, and my pocket book.
Thanks my friend,
And in your experience, are any fish families opposed to Chloroquine usage?
<Some do seem more sensitive than others.... But, I don't have sufficient confidence to state which... as the scant data I'm familiar with have other variables... too much variability to single out sensitivity alone>
Currently have snowflake, guinea fowl puffer that I know don't like copper usage.
<Ah yes; BobF>
Re: Two questions... now SpG... use the SITE!        2/13/15

Thanks bob. Last question for the day, would bring it from 1.023 to 1.020 sg hurt anything? Looking long term at water changes and cost of rising salt prices.
<See WWM re spg... some animals do not like anything other than NSW strength>
Thanks, and have a good evening

Ich and CP Tx        1/7/15
Hi, Thanks for having such an informative site, and happy new year!
<And you J>
I have been reading the past few weeks on trying to cure ich. My fish have been free of it for a while and I recently upgraded and foolishly threw in a couple tangs without QT (never again, trust me: I've had heaters blow and kill fish in the meantime with transferring, been electrocuted many times, spent more money than I should with salt, water, etc).
<Dang! Trial by fire!>
Anyway I am currently dosing an approx. ~38.5 gallon total volume hospital tank with a yellow, purple, sohal, and Naso tang, 3 Anthias, small 6 line, blenny, and two clowns (they normally live in a 6' tank).
<Mmm; I would have tried treating these in place (in the main tank)... Too much stress from crowding; esp. all these surgeonfishes together in such a small volume>
Anyway, the sohal and purple tang showed up with spots when I introduced them into the tank, so I pulled all fish out on Xmas day. They recently began Tx on Saturday 1/3/15, at an initial dosage of 5/8 tsp. An additional 1/8 tsp was added on 1/4, but then I noticed some of the fish (namely the sohal and the purple tang) not eating like before. The sohal would devastate any Nori when in the tank, and now just grazes by it.
<Yes... the aforementioned stress from crowding>
The yellow and purple tang are definitely showing spots of ich now, and the sohal and yellow tang scratch their bodies on the PVC piping. Naso tang just cruises along and eats like normal, male Tierra Anthias seems uninterested in food at the moment as well.
I have been trying to find an answer to no avail, but I did a 10% water change to reduce the concentration of the CP to approx 5/8 tsp, when I noticed them last eating like normal in hopes of getting them back to eating. So I am writing you to ask if 1) does CP cause a suppression in appetite after a day or two of Tx,
<Yes it does, can.... along w/ all being jammed together>
and also, can and does ich appear even when Tx the water with CP?
<Well; the "spots" may not be Cryptocaryon if this is what you're asking.
Only can be accurately ascertained via sampling and microscopic examination>
Is CP only effective in the free swimming state of ich?
<Yes; as far as I'm aware>
Thanks for any insight, and I look forward to your response.
Re: Ich and CP Tx        1/7/15

Thanks Bob! I know the HT is a bit small,
<Way too small psychologically... Acanthurids do NOT like... am working on a title of the family presently>
fortunately for me (?) the tangs are on the smaller side, 2-3" max. The yellow tang is the most established, 2.5 years old and Max size of 3.5".
There are definitely bumps coming from the sides of its body that weren't there before.
I chose to pull them out because I was going to do hypo on them, but I realized it may be difficult to do so. So I bought some CP instead. They have been in the 40 gal breeder for about 1.5 weeks, eating normally and (still) swimming fine.
I must add, I do have coral and inverts on my DT, thus i didn't think of treating the main tank.
<Life... is a series of compromises...>
I must ask you, do you think if I keep my water good and run the CP for at least 7 more days, they may be okay?
I really want to run the CP for about 3 weeks IF I could, and from all I've been reading the CP would be contraindicated in a reef tank.
<Usually; yes... does/will kill off a BUNCH of life, cause complications that may well not be easily countered>
Again, I appreciate your insight and thoughts and you're far more of an expert than I!
Thanks again, Bob!!!
<Certainly welcome John. BobF>
<If it were mine, I'd return all these fishes to the large system, GIVEN the caveats presented on WWM for use, and try the CP there; at 15 mg/l. Bob Fenner>
Re: Ich and CP Tx      1/9/15

<Hey John>
I just wanted to give you a quick update: I was able to move five small fish into a 10 gallon tank (2 clowns, 3 Anthias) and all that remains in the 40 are the tangs, a small wrasse and a blenny.
<Hope they're all getting along>
The CP is definitely showing signs in the tank where the white film is all over the inside glass. Fish do have white stringy feces, and some still aren't eating right.
<Yes; these are effects of the CP>
I had the water tested with an API ammonia kit and it is showing 8.0 ppm within a few minutes,
performed some serious water changes and then tested using the Red Sea ammonia kit and only find 0.8 on their colorimetric chart. Odd, right?
<... not really. API test kits are junk; neither accurate nor precise. See WWM re getting better assay gear>
Ammonia alert badge is showing alert levels only. Could the API test be giving me bum results?
<Assuredly; yes. Your fishes would all be dead...>
No signs of heavy breathing, fish don't show signs of ammonia toxicity.
Anyway, the spots on the yellow and purple tang have fallen off, and i hope they don't show for the duration of the treatment! None of the tangs seem to want to scratch anymore.
This is one costly non-QT mistake that I'll never make again. It's a little disheartening to know the fish didn't have to go through this if the other fish were QT'ed, and I hope I don't make them pay the ultimate price for MY mistake.
<Me too... these sorts of frustrations, losses... the lack of readily available, useful information (hence WWM) ARE the principal reasons the hobby "runs through" about 100% of "customer base" every year. Please don't leave>
Thanks for e-listening!!!
<Glad to share. Bob Fenner> 
Re: Ich and CP Tx
Happy Friday, Bob!
<And you John>
Surprisingly tangs have been getting along fine. :) They really don't paying to each other, and every once in a while they'll bicker, but nothing to the point of a death match!
<Ah, good; like many Cichlids, when crowded Tangs may get along for a while>
At one point, the sohal would "shake" or spaz as he/she swam and would rub the gill area on a pvc pipe, and then stop where the water returns from the HOB filter. But no fast gilling/breathing. It did that for most of the day, today it seemed a lot more calm and swam normally. No other tang was exhibiting this.
The only fish I am wary of is the 6 line in the same tank, it hovers in one spot in the tank, but will pick at Masago when it's dropped in the tank (i drop very little food into the hospital tanks with the ongoing "ammonia problem" I have; Red Sea test tests 2.0 ppm, and I have been using Prime and two bottles of BioSpira so far. A third bottle on the way)
The purple tang seems to have regained some appetite, and the sohal is the only one in THAT tank not eating.
<Not a problem really>
In the other tank I noticed the Anthias swimming 90 degrees vertically, face up. I thought they were goners but as soon as lights are out, they swim to the bottom and take refuge by the pipes. What gives? When i approach the tank, they are alert and dart to hide and go horizontal. Any ideas, Bob?
<Stress, the medication>
Thanks for being available for the aquatic community!!!
I trust you'll have a great weekend!
<Ah yes; thank you. BobF>

Re: Ich and CP Tx      1/11/15

Bob!!!! Great news, for me at least, :)
Looks like most fish, especially my favorite sohal, has regained their appetites! Sohal used to only eat Nori, and is back at devouring it again.
So my observations with CP Tx:
1) appetite suppression (hopefully gone by now)
2) slowness, sluggishness in behavior, I wouldn't call it lethargic though. Almost like "fish high"
3) ich appeared during treatment, but most likely ich completing the life cycle during Tx in the fish.
4) accumulation of white film on glass, and a weird smell coming from the tanks.
5) "ammonia spikes"- not sure what to make of this.
<All known effects>

Anyway, I'll update you in hopes that maybe you'll be able to share my experience on WWM so others can learn too.
Thanks Bob!
<Thank you for sharing>
Re: Ich and CP Tx       1/23/15

Mr. Bob!
<Hey John>
A quick update: I had to ditch CP as a few days ago (7-8 days) ich exploded on my sohal during tx. Thus I concluded the CP I bought, from a seller who gets his supply from Fishman Chemicals, wasn't potent or pure enough.
At least the BioSpira saved the fish from ammonia poisoning while in the HT.
At this time, I am performing tank transfer for my remaining fish. The Anthias (who don't eat by the way... ANYTHING) and clowns are in a separate tank still and have never displayed any signs or symptoms of ich. Odd.
<Does happen...>
The remaining tangs (yellow died during first couple of days into TTM, as did a wrasse) and Midas are doing well in TTM, eating normally, and not flashing. The sohal was the worst and he seems spot free at the moment and has not flashed.
I transferred them out the next morning after the sohal had the worst display of ich. Sure as day, the afternoon after the ich exploded on him, the lesions disappeared and he looked normal. Luckily and hopefully they all remained back!
Anyway, now I am tasked with getting some pure ammonia in this newly set up QT ( new water, all equipment soaked in fresh water and vinegar for a day and dried for several days) and adding some BioSpira later.
I must admit I've never had to set up an emergency, un-cycled QT before, and I must get the fish in the QT by mid next week.
Any suggestions besides using anything from the DT which has been fallow since 12/25/14?
<All posted on WWM; best to look there first>
Thanks for any insight, Bob! :)
<Cheers and thanks for the report. Bob Fenner>

Marine Velvet / Ich and Chloroquine/Hypo Treatment
Dear WMM Crew,
I wanted to share an experience and get your guidance, in hopes that this might help out others as well as myself.
<Please do>
For the last 9 months or so I've been trying to get my 370 angel/butterfly tank off the ground, but I've been battling some issues with what appears to be Ich and Marine Velvet (I purchased a microscope, and though it is a bit difficult to tell for certain, it appears to resemble the slides I've seen on your site and in books.) I had followed proper QT procedures both for the initial introduction, and also for subsequent fallow periods (I have about 250 gallons of QT in 5 separate tanks, 2 times I've removed all fish from DT and put them in QT with Copper for 8-10 weeks, and once with Chloroquine for the same period), but despite this I've still run into issues a week or two upon reintroducing some of the fish into the DT.
<Happens... you may well have entrenched protozoan issues in your main/display... that are "surfacing" in/on new introductions>
So I got my hands on some Quinine and also Chloroquine from National Fish Pharmacy and Fishman Chemical respectively, as I seemed to have a strain of Ich/MV that was copper resistant
<This is also been conjectured for a few years; make that decades>

(I tried both Cupramine and CopperSafe separately, used multiple test kits to ensure proper dosage &c.) The copper seemed to hide the symptoms, but once I would remove it after say 30 days, the symptoms would return-and since I have angel's and butterflies, I didn't want to continue using copper.
I've established that I CAN rid the Ich/MV from my QT by using Chloroquine, as the fish don't show any signs of symptoms after the treatment in the QT (I have several QT's, and when I would remove the medicine with Polyfilter or Carbon, I wouldn't see new symptoms even after 3 weeks of no meds, something that I always saw with Copper within about 5 days). But even after letting my DT go fallow for up to 10 weeks, I don't think that the parasites were completely eliminated as symptoms would return to the fish about a week or two after re-introduction (I would only put a few back in, not all of the fish), and would quickly spread to epidemic proportions even with 120W of UV which has new bulbs, and appropriate flow per Emperor Aquatics.
So now onto the question(s).
I've removed all inverts / corals from my DT, which is primarily a FOWLR tank. Even when dosing Chloroquine in the DT, it seems that I still have not eliminated the pests entirely. The difference is perhaps that I do have Live Rock and Sand in there. I've been reading on some various forums, and also in Ed Noga's book, and he recommends using Chloroquine + Hypo (at about 12-13 ppt) for 30 days to really pack a 1-2 punch on any issues with Ich/Velvet. I've personally never done Hypo before, and I wanted to get your opinion on if you would recommend this approach-or something else? I am fully confident that I can carry out the protocol properly, and have a refractometer, and also water test kits to ensure the I do have a few red sea/generally sensitive fish, but they haven't minded the treatments so far and their adults so they seem to be pretty hardy. Just wasn't sure if doing Hypo would be dangerous with them?
<Not as much as the parasitic infestation... in other words: no>

While I can certainly catch all of the fish out and move them to QT's, I'm worried that at this point that might be more traumatic then treating them in the DT, especially since they have so much more room within that tank than in the QT's, and also the DT is well established with a biofilter, so there is 0 ammonia / nitrite, and I keep nitrates < 10 with water changes, which is harder to keep on top of with 5 QT's that will be more heavily stocked if I remove all the fish from the DT.
My preference at this point would be to treat the fish in the DT (basically as a large scale QT), and wait to reintroduce any inverts for at least 6 months or so. But if you feel that this is the wrong approach, I can certainly pull all the fish out again, I've just not been able to rid it in the past, but perhaps I wasn't waiting long enough.
As a side note to your readers, I used both Quinine and Chloroquine. I noticed that the Quinine appeared to be much harsher on the fish than Chloroquine.
<Yes; generally so>
When I would dose Quinine, the fish would turn dark, some would breath heavily, and most would lose appetite for a few days, even had a couple of fatalities with smaller fish. I never noticed any such symptoms with Chloroquine, and they seem to be equally effective in my QT's. Also note, snails seem to handle this treatment (even long term) just fine (when I've treated in my DT). I have several different kinds, and haven't noticed any fatalities. I did test with shrimp starfish and snails, and they do not handle this treatment and will quickly perish. Same goes with Coral, for the treatment, my suggestion is to remove all coral and non-crab inverts and put them in an unmedicated tank if treating your DT.
<Yes; for sure>

No urgency for the response on this holiday weekend, just trying to plan my next steps. I have Chloroquine in the DT right now, and it seems to be keeping the parasites at bay, but not 100% eliminating them. I spoke to Fishman, and they recommended rather than just doing a single dose every 7-10 days, to do daily doses at ¼ strength after the initial dose to ensure that the medication does not fall below the efficacious threshold.
<I concur>
I'm 3 days into that approach, and was thinking if this doesn't work then I need to try another approach.
Best Regards and Thanks much as always!
<Again; thank you for sharing. Bob Fenner>
Re: Marine Velvet / Ich and Chloroquine/Hypo Treatment

Thanks so much Bob for the lightning fast response!
I just wanted to make one edit to my previous post. I accidentally said that snails tolerated the Quinine/Chloroquine treatments, but this was exactly what I meant not to say. The previous post said ". Also note, snails seem to handle this treatment (even long term) just fine (when I've treated in my DT)". However this should have read: ". Also note, <<Crabs>> seem to handle this treatment (even long term) just fine (when I've treated in my DT). " Just want to make sure that anyone reading this understands that Crabs and Not snails tolerate the treatment. Snails, Bristleworms, Starfish, Shrimp, and Corals will perish.
I will keep you and everyone posted with my progress (or lack thereof) with the treatment/outcome.
<Thank you for this clarification>
Best Regards,
<And you, BobF>
Re: Marine Velvet / Ich and Chloroquine/Hypo Treatment      6/5/14

Hi Bob and Team,
<Hey there Brad>
Just a follow up. It's been 1.5 weeks since my last email when I initiated hyposalinity treatment + Chloroquine. To date I haven't seen much of any improvement (no fatalities but no improvement), and I'm wondering if perhaps at this stage I've eliminated the Ich/marine velvet and perhaps have flukes (since I've been treating with Chloroquine for about 2 months now, and don't see the trademark ick spots, nor the velvety coating/rapid breathing, just some scattered white spots, some fin fraying, and a few spots in the eyes.
<It is indeed possible. Trematodes are almost always present on marine fishes in the wild...>
interesting that it isn't on all fish, just a few. Some fish show no signs at all. I'm beginning to think maybe I still have some form of flukes/monogeans. It definitely doesn't appear to be anything bacterial or fungal.
<... do you have access to a simple microscope? Sampling and looking is simple...>
From what I can see researching online, I'm not sure that either hyposalinity or Chloroquine would treat flukes (just some anecdotal evidence on forums, but nothing concrete.)
<Mmm; they will not. Straight pH adjusted freshwater WITH formalin will eliminate external (body and gill) flukes... Otherwise, the use of Anthelminthics like Prazi/pro is advised>
I don't want to rush into anything but wanted to seek your guidance on treatment. Should I continue to treat with Hyposalinity/Chloroquine?
<I would not. You've already gone long enough with this M.O.>
Maybe I should pull the Chloroquine with water changes/poly filters, but hold the hyposalinity? The other option I was thinking was to pull the Chloroquine and treat with Praziquantel at hyposalinity levels.
<I'd be reading... THEN doing dips while moving the fish livestock, THEN treating them with Prazi>
I've used Prazi prophylactically in the past for my reef tank fish with Copper. Not sure if it would be ok to treat with it + hyposalinity. Seems like an easier treatment on the fish. I could also punt and continue the current path, but usually in my experience you notice a change in symptoms when you are affecting a cure within a few days, and the multiple weeks of treatment is to ensure you eradicate everything + give your DT time to kill off the parasites.
Any guidance would be greatly appreciated!
Best Regards,
<... wish we could do "the Vulcan mind-meld... am about as olde as Spock!)... reading re Trematodes, 'scope use, the compounds mentioned... Bob Fenner>
Re: Marine Velvet / Ich and Chloroquine/Hypo Treatment      6/5/14

Thanks Bob!
<Welcome Brad>
I do have a microscope, and just got oil for 40x+ resolution, and also a USB adapter so I can take pictures and share. I agree with not doing trial by elimination treatments, and not opposed to pulling all of the fish again for treatment. Just wanted to avoid that if possible as to not stress the fish out more if there was a simpler coarse.
<Course; and better to sample, know what is on your fishes>
Will ponder this a bit more and dig around WMM some more along with pulling out Ed Noga's book for more research after I catch a candidate fish and collect the samples. Just wanted to follow up in case if there was something else obvious that I was missing.
All the best,
<Not that I know of. Cheers, B>

another concern regarding CP Ich treatment      4/14/14
Dear WWM Crew,
Hello, I am in need of your advise again. We previously corresponded regarding CP Ich treatment, and a Longnose butterfly fish. I am using the CP treatment method described in a lovely book by Bob Goemans.
I have a 6 inch queen angel, flame hawk, two clown fish, YWG, yellow tailed damsel, and Kole tang all in a 30 gallon treatment tank. It is the largest tank I have for treatment. They were placed in there for treatment of recent outbreak of Ich after the butterfly fish was added. I do quarantine, but the tanks inhabitants have been thru crypto before, all survived without treatment years ago. They are all now going thru treatment so that I can be rid of this. I have planned to leave the 180 gallon DT tank fallow for 8 weeks. The problem is the angel now looks spotty again, but a little different. The spots are large and even extend past her body when you look down her body and they look larger,
more like large grain salt.
<... how large is this Angel? If several inches, I'd do a pH adjusted freshwater (plus maybe formalin) dip... and return it to the larger system... The spots may well be "stress" from consequences of being crowded in the thirty>
I did a repeat dose on the tank once and they have been in CP treatment for one month now.
<... one treatment is about all the good one can do... Re-read on WWM re the use of CP>

Ammonia 0, 1.024, pH 8.0 temp has been 80, but today was 84 - not sure why, except the house is a tad warmer.
Thank you for your help. I am so appreciative. Victoria
<Read. Bob Fenner>

Quinine Sulfate for Healthy QT Fish    2/5/12
Hi Bob and crew!
My display tank was fallow for two months while its current residents were QT'd for Ich (all 6+ months ago).  At the time, no Crypto-Pro was available, and my two Centropyges died within days of adding Cupramine.
<Copper can be very hard on Pomacanthids...>

 After being fallow for so long, and with all the reintroduced inhabitants having been treated with the copper, I think it's likely the crypt has been eradicated from the display tank.
My display tank includes a tang (A. leucosternon), and I don't want to risk introducing Ich.  So even though my QT'd Genicanthus melanospilos has been healthy for a month, I want to dose her for Ich.  In my experience, angels can live with crypt (so she might have it even without symptoms), but it would probably become an outbreak if the tang's exposed.
Fortunately, I was able to get some Crypto-Pro this time, so I don't have to use copper on another angel.  I pulled the carbon and dosed the tank according to the instructions (except for the part about surgical gloves and a mask -- please pray for me).  FWIW, the instructions should tell you to introduce this stuff mixed well in water.  It clumps more than I expected.
 <Yes; agreed>
Anyway, I'm concerned about some of this dosing.  The instructions say to use the recommended dose (1/8tsp per 10gals) "every 24-hours for ten days, with a 25% water change before each treatment."  Do you interpret this as daily 25% changes? 
<Mmm, IF there's appreciable ammonia, nitrite; yes>
Also, won't the medicine accumulate in the water at this rate?
 <It breaks down rather rapidly... esp. w/ exposure to light>
Finally, if you were me, how would you proceed?  Would you go the whole ten days?
 <IF this is what the maker suggests, yes; though do search through WWM re>
At this point, I'm very satisfied with the health of the swallowtail,
except for the possibility she's carrying unseen Ich.  How do you evaluate the assorted risks here?
<Skin/mucus smears and microscopic examination principally>
Thanks in advance,
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>

Was: Re: Stocking list , opinions please? Now: QS failed Crypt treatment  11/14/11
Hello again Crew,
Bad news, we broke out the champagne too early: the tang suddenly broke out in Ich (visible) again two weeks after I sent you this message (still in QT). I tried a repeat treatment of the Quinine same as last time but at day 5 of this dose she is still covered and scratching/flashing constantly.
I have a nasty suspicion that the quinine has actually not worked at all, and all I have observed in reality is the Theronts leaving the fish to infest the substrate. Because there were no tomites in the water already, being a freshly setup QT tank, there would have been nothing to re-infect her for a week or so until the new tomonts hatched and re-infected her.. I think this may be what has happened.
<Does appear so>
Now at day 5 of the second quinine treatment I'm seeing no change like last time , re-enforcing my theory. I'm really bummed.
<Time to switch to another treatment mode... CP or chelated copper, the last perhaps along w/ reduced SPG>
I've put a UV steriliser on today (36W) to fry the tank a bit before I do a water change and hit with a third 5 day 30mg/L dose of quinine (without UV of course). I've also begun slowly dropping the salinity in case I need to go down that path instead. Just a couple of questions if I may?
Do you think I should:
a. Do a 25% water change, hit with third quinine dose, Lower the salinity to 1.015 (as per CMA) over the next few days?
b. Do a 25% water change and lower the salinity to 1.015 over the next few days - forget the quinine?
<Am more inclined toward (b) so far...>
c. Do a 25% water change and hit with a dose of quinine again - leave the salinity?
d. Start drawing on some more of my chemical arsenal and try copper and nitromidazole?
<The Copper (chelated product) and lowered SPG are my choice>
Appreciate your help
<And you your patience, sharing. Cheers, BobF>
Re: Stocking list , opinions please? QS failure, Crypt f's    11/15/11

Hi Bob,
Appreciate your advice/time,
I thought it was generally advised against to use copper with hyposalinity due to copper being more toxic at lower SPG?
<To extents yes>
I've started lowering the SPG further anyway, but many (e.g. Steven Pro et al) seem to think that 1.012 is a more appropriate level than 1.015, some even advocate as low as 1.008?.
<Yes; my lower limit is 1.010>
I'm currently shooting for the 1.012 as a compromise as I only have the glass bulb hydrometer so accuracy is not pin point
Do you think it would be dangerous to dose quinine or Metronidazole/Praziquantel at the same time as the low SPG?
<I do not; unless the fishes are badly compromised...>
Really nervous of copper use , my Cu test kit sucks as far as I'm concerned with the colour gradients being all shades of vague copper colours I can barely discern and huge differences between them. I managed to kill the last fish I tried to cure with copper, but this was combined with a temperature spike to 29 degrees C on a particular hot day, so not sure which killed it, Cu, heat , the Ich or most probably the stress of all three at once.
<I don't know either. Copper is dangerous, no doubt... and maintaining useful concentrations in marine settings is difficult... Less than 0.15-0.20 is of no use; more than 0.35 often deadly>
At the moment I'm leaning towards hitting it with another dose of quinine,
<Do please read here... re warning signs, incidents w/ QS, my urgings to use CP instead: http://wetwebmedia.com/QuinTrbFixF.htm
and the linked files above>
Hyposalinity and trying to feed Nori and Mysids soaked with Jungle Internal Parasite Guard (Metronidazole, Praziquantel and salt) and Seachem reef fuel. This Jungle product is directed to add to the water , but I have read that these are only effective if ingested and I have no idea how to dose this stuff for feeding as it is compounded for adding directly to the water
(5g/20L) .
Do you have any knowledge of this product and how I might dose it orally?
<Not enough, no; thankfully marine organisms "drink" their environment (more than fresh)>
(for the fish that is.. not me ;-) )
Should I try just adding it to the water?
<Yes I would>
Last thing, I DID feed the fish live brine shrimp, and have read that these are possible carriers for Ich. Any thoughts on this as the cause of re-infection?
<Can be a source... Hence my usual suggestion to soak all in freshwater for several minutes before offering>
Thanks for the continued support ,
<And you for your further shared intelligence and related experience.

Re: Crypt, QS failure  11/17/11

Hi Again,
Sorry to drag you so far through the saga, but I think this Ich incident might have finally driven me round the twist and I need an independent view point:
<Glad to provide it/this>
Today, all the visible Ich signs have gone again except for scarring/scratch marks, and I have only got as far as lowering the SPG to 1.015 at this point! Three days ago I'm sure the fish was covered!
<Mmm, may well have simply "cycled off" the host fishes... as you're familiar w/ this parasite's life cycle...>
This, in combination with a 36 w UV running
<Mmm, do remind me: you did have the UV off while treating w/ the QS right?>
at 450lph,24hrs daily for four days on an 85L tank with substrate/ornament removal and re-placement (plastic bases/pvc etc.) every second day is the only thing I've done since
the second Quinine dose failed to clear up the Ich. What is going on?
<Sounds like "bad" Quinine... or the UV, or?>
Could I have misdiagnosed the second outbreak and it was actually Amyloodinium/Scar tissue/secondary infection et al?
This time there had to be plenty of all life stages in the tank, so can't be just the normal ICH peek-a-boo cycle again yeh?
<Maybe not plenty of life stages... could be largely/only one>
I wondered if perhaps the residual Quinine has acted a bit late on the fish this time (8 days effect, after dosing with a 30% water change at day 5), or if I was just seeing the spots etc. long after the parasite was gone,..... or if the substrate removal and UV is really being so effective (with a modestly low SPG)?
<Let's hope for this last>
it's doing my head in trying to work out what I'm seeing.
I don't know whether to just sit and watch (default position for now) or hit it with another Quinine and/or Metronidazole/Praziquantel dose just to be sure.
<Mmm, I'd at least continue to lower the Spg>
I find it hard to believe the Ich has just up and vanished from the little extra I've done, so I'm scared there will be a third sudden relapse, what do you think I should do: wait or treat further?
<See above>
Also if I do treat with Quinine and/or Metronidazole/Praziquantel at 1.014 SPG do you think I should halve the dose I've used for typical NSW?
<Mmm, I'd treat at near full dose, but keep a close eye on your fishes>
<And you, BobF>
Re: Crypt, QS failure   11/17/11

Thank Bob,
Yes I had the UV off while treating (and actually only have a low 9w light above the tank in a dark room as well to avoid denaturing the quinine (only just enough to see by )
<Well, "a swing and a miss">
I usually have to check the fish with a torch.
I'm going to try the stubborn approach and hit with a third dose of Quinine today. I think I'll leave the Metronidazole as a follow up to this after a water change as I don't want to stress the fish more than absolutely necessary. Will let you know the results
Thanks for the help
<Welcome R. B>

Chloroquine Phosphate and treating Display Tank   5/7/09
Hi Bob and Crew -
I spend at least 8-10 hours per week reading on your site and absolutely love and appreciate all of the great advice. I have only been in the hobby for about 6 months and already have a 300 Gallon Reef, a 60 Gallon FOWLR, and a 34 Gallon Species with a Carpet Anemone and one False Percula. You helped me identify a Nudibranch about a month ago and I have since invested in another 30 gallon tank for quarantine and treatment.
However, like many of your readers, I was devastatingly delinquent in adding the quarantine tank. So, today I write you regarding my 300 Gallon Reef System. I have spend many hours reading on your site about Crypto and other parasites and have recently added a Powder Blue Tang from my 60 Gallon to the 300 Gallon reef system. A week later, I lost my Puffer and Volitans Lion in the 60 gallon tank to Ich. Now, the Powder Blue Tang is showing signs of Ich and has evidently spread the love. My 5" Foxface Lo is also exhibiting signs of 'Black Ich'.
<This, as you likely are aware, is not "that" deleterious>
I know that the drill is to capture and treat all of the fish. This is not possible in this tank. Even if I were to remove all the rock, many of the fishes would hide in the substrate,
<Mmm, they can be sand-sifted out>
etc. However, last night I ran across a post where I inferred that treating the display tank is better than nothing at all. I am afraid that this will be my only option. So, my plan is as follows:
1) Remove all of my Coral and place in a large quarantine tank2) I have ordered Chloroquine Phosphate based on recommendation by WWM and the book "The Marine Fish Health & Feeding Handbook" This is truly the least lethal medication for the fish and the best for a display, right?
<Currently likely the most useful for Protozoans, including Amyloodinium>
3) I will remove as many of my snails and crabs as possible<Mmm... this antimalarial (Aralen) is quite toxic to a range of invertebrates... and there are, assuredly, a huge mix of these in and about your rock, substrate... These may be killed (along with any algae), resulting in a toxic cascade effect... Again, it would be much BETTER to remove the fishes, treat them elsewhere>
4) I will treat the display tank for 10 days with 40mg per gallon of Chloroquine Phosphate
My question is, at the end of this treatment, assuming all of the fish look fine:
1) How long do I wait to add the coral and inverts back
<Three weeks or so>
2) Do I change 50% water and add charcoal to rid the Chloroquine? Is this sufficient?
<Activated carbon and Polyfilter should do it>
3) I believe that I have read in several places that the necessary bacteria should not be affected by this treatment, is this still your experience?
<Yes... however... the above reference...>
Is there anything that I have overlooked that may cause me problems either immediately; or, long term?
<Turn off your skimmer, and UV, remove any other chemical filtrants...>
Thank you very much for all of your help!
- Kevin
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
[Fwd: Chloroquine Phosphate and treating Display Tank]
I left out my water parameters, etc:
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate less than 5
SG 1.027
PH 8.3
<These are fine. I'd like to add the possibility of your delivering the CP via foods... One formula calls for 3.7 grams of CP dissolved in a gel powder mix of 300 grams... this mixed with water, foods... less toxic to
non-targeted "other" life. BobF>

Crypt help!!!! 3-26-09
Hi guys,
Love the website...I use it lots.
<It is superb...so do I>
Unfortunately, this time I have a question that I need a little more help with. I have a boxfish (Ostracion cubicus) with a really bad case of crypt....(I think).
<A better diagnosis than "I think" would be helpful>
I've had him for about 6 months and he's always been really healthy and happy.
<Good to hear, not an easy species to keep. I have an O. cubicus myself>
About a week ago, I went down to feed him, and found him absolutely covered in little white bumps. I've read all of the remedies for crypt on your site, but my problem is that I can't really use any of them because I also have a banded bamboo shark, a porcupine puffer, a spotted puffer, and a hermit crab in the tank.
<I also have a bamboo shark, cute when they're little, but fast growers and they need a big tank!>
I know that if he gets stressed he can release a deadly toxin, which is why I am unsure about moving him into a quarantine tank.
<All the more reason to do so>
I have noticed a couple spots on the puffers, but they aren't nearly as bad. I've been treating the tank with Ich cure for a few days, but he just seems to be getting worse.
<What are the ingredients in "ich cure"? I recommend ceasing treatment and performing a large (50% +) water change>
I've also been adding some garlic in with his food, but that doesn't seem to be helping either.
<Garlic isn't a cure for anything>
He's still happy, and eating great, he just looks terrible all covered in bumps. I guess my question is Do I risk moving him into a QT tank, or is there some other treatment that is safe for the shark and the puffers? Any help you could give me would be appreciated... I'm getting worried about the little guy.
<I'm not sure how big your shark, puffers, and boxfish are, but treatment in a QT tank is always recommended. If this is not feasible (water quality could definitely be an issue here) then your only option will be to treat the entire display tank. Your "miracle cure" in either case is going to be the medication quinine sulfate, available from www.nationalfishpharm.com.
At the risk of sounding like a salesperson (I'm not, just a fan!), this is the most effective crypt medication I've ever used, and is safe with puffers and sharks. Order it, pay extra for overnight shipping, and treat asap. Quinine sulfate is toxic to molluscs, and other invertebrates to a lesser extent>
Thanks in advance!!
<M. Maddox>

Crypt help!!!! Part II 4-10-09
Hello again,
<Evening - sorry about the slow reply>
So I ordered the "miracle cure", and began treating the tank.
<I'm not sure I would call Quinine Sulfate a 'miracle cure', but it is very effective>
Its been 3 days and the problem only seems to be getting worse. The boxfish is so covered in white bumps that you can barely see his skin anymore.
<Time for a freshwater dip>
My porcupine puffer has also taken a turn for the worst. I noticed after I added the quinine sulfate that her eyes got all cloudy and she was bumping into things.
<Possible a secondary bacterial infection>
She also stopped eating.
<Common in ill puffers>
Today, her eyes are completely white, and she is laying on the bottom, breathing really hard. I have a feeling she isn't going to make it much longer.
<You should definitely move both of the fish into QT and treat with broad spectrum antibiotics in addition to the QS>
I have a hospital tank, but it is currently housing a panther grouper.
<Time for a second QT!>
I'm not sure what to do now....do I continue the treatments and water changes with the quinine sulfate, or do I set up a new hospital tank, wait for it to cycle, and move them all into there?
<The waste products can be negated with Amquel+ or Prime, this isn't the time to be worrying about anything except getting the fish into a treatment tank>
I have been using a UV sterilizer (I turned it off when treating with quinine sulfate as per the instructions on the bottle), but that doesn't seem to have helped either.
<Flow rate through the sterilizer?>
The shark and the dogface puffer still seem unaffected, but I feel uneasy about leaving them in a tank that is so sick. I've done a whole range of water tests and nothing is out of range, I don't know what to do next.... please help!!!!!
<Move all fish into a QT tank, treat with quinine and antibiotics, and leave your main tank fallow (fish-less) for at least 5 weeks>
<Good luck! Mike Maddox>

Dosing instructions on Chloroquine Phosphate for ich??   2/16/08 Hi, Looked on your site and could not find the answer. I have a 200 gallon saltwater tank with lots of live rock, a few large angelfish and some other smaller fish (no corals). I have ich in my tank and want to try the Chloroquine Phosphate powder....finally found it on line at Fishchemical.com but don't know how to dose it. I would like to dose it several times over a month so that it can kill all of the ich swimmers as they hatch. <Mmm... really needs to be administered outside the display tank... to discount interaction with other materials> Found a dose in a book that was a one time only of 5 to 10 mg. per liter, but I need it to kill over an entire month to kill all the ich. <A few protocols call for the dosage you mention, applied every three days for three treatments> It seems to me that this would require multiple dosing as the medication may degrade in the system over time. I don't want to over dose and kill the fish, or under dose and not kill the ich. I plan to remove 2/3 of my sand (with the sand worms), and as many of my snails and crabs as I can find, and my macro algae, and put them in a 40 gallon tank for 6 weeks to 2 months until all the medication is out of the system and the ich has died off in the removed sand. <... this really won't work. Again, you need to remove, treat all fishes elsewhere> How does one dose this medication? I will be getting it in two days and hope it will not be too late. I hope the powder has the milligrams listed per given quantity. I have a gram scale. Does anyone know if it kills coralline algae on the rocks? Would it be better to not put the snails and sand worms back in and just go snail-less and worm-less so that I can dose this medication anytime I have a problem. If I don't put any of the old sand and stuff back in there may not be a need for the snails as the algae would be all dead?? Thank you in advance for any advice, Lesley in Houston <Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm Bob Fenner>

Chloroquine phosphate usage/dosage   2/13/09 I acquired a Kole recently, and put him into quarantine where I've noticed two relatively small white patches on him. About one month ago after reading Bob Fenner's writings here, I acquired some Chloroquine phosphate from a Canadian pharmaceutical company. It came in 250 mg tablets. My question is how to go about trading him. The fish is in a 10 gallon quarantine tank with a seeded filter, but I know that frequent water changes will be necessary. Specifically, how do we administer the does which I believe is 10 mg/liter (380 mg/10 gallon tank)? <You could "grind up" the tablet/s... with a pill crusher... or have a pharmacist do this for you (grind, weigh)... "guess"/measure as to about the right amount otherwise> This drug is not like copper. We have no way of testing its level. As we will need to do water changes from time to time, how can we be sure that the level is correct? <One can only "guess-timate" presently. There is a broad range of efficacy, safety> Your advice will be greatly appreciated as we would very much like to save this fish. Thank you, Jeffrey Castaldo <And re the "patches" period... I would not likely treat for this/these... better to dip/bath and place this Ctenochaetus in your main display. Bob Fenner>

Re: Chloroquine phosphate usage/dosage - 2/13/09 Based upon a dosage of 10 mg per 1 L, which is what I have read here, 380 mg (1.5 tablets) would be correct, and easy enough to attain accurately with a pill cutter. <We are in agreement> However, having just acquired this fish, I am curious as to why you recommend to just dip/bath the fish and place it into my main display tank without the usual 30 day quarantine I usually adhere to, and what is normally stressed here on WWW. <This genus is "touchier" than "average"... and that you state you have only a ten gallon to quarantine it in... My high confidence opinion is that there is much less likelihood to be transmittal of pests, parasites (excluded through preventative bath) than subsequent damage to this specimen in a months isolation there> Without a photograph, are you able to give me some insight as to what those patches are? <Mmm, only guesses in either case. I have collected Combtooth tangs in a few countries, though primarily in HI... these are often hand-damaged through moving from hand netting (off a barrier, mist net) to collecting/decomp. buckets... and later processing... Often what one sees here are actual "fingerprints" on the fishes' sides...> And when you recommend a dip/bath, are you referring to plain buffered (8.4) freshwater, with Methylene blue, Formalin, or? <I am referring to all of these possible protocols. I would use pH adjusted  FW, some MB and Formalin... the last with heavy aeration> Also, I am still uncertain as how to go about keeping the dose therapeutic when I need to make frequent water changes. I suppose I could use Prime, but I am uncertain as to how to incorporate that into the treatment. <A good question. I don't know either. Maybe ask the folks at FishVet (.com)> I am sending this follow-up because I do not fully understand, and want to administer the proper treatment. Thank you very much for your assistance. Jeffrey Castaldo <A pleasure to conspire with you, BobF>

Re: Chloroquine phosphate usage/dosage - 2/13/09 Thank you for clarifying this to me, and for your excellent advice and honesty. I realize that there is no clear-cut solution for all situations; many times we must learn through trial and error. Best regards, Jeffrey Castaldo <Ah, yes... am doing my best to share, warn folks of my too-many errors... so they can avoid these trials. Cheers! BobF>

Urgent Quarantine... Quinine f'  1/24/09 Hello Crew, <Kayla> A few days ago, I placed my marine fish in quarantine because a few were displaying signs of ich. I have a Valentini puffer, six-line wrasse, "powder brown"/white-cheek tang, hippo tang, and two percula clowns. After much research, I decided to perform a freshwater dip with formalin/malachite green and place into a 30 gallon quarantine with hyposalinity (1.010) and 10 mg/L of Chloroquine phosphate. <Okay> The first day went fine, but the second day the water became quite cloudy. I have been testing the water qualities and have 0 ppm of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate, with a pH of 8.3. Today, I found the wrasse laying on the tank bottom respirating very rapidly. Again, the ammonia (etc.) levels were all in check. A few hours later, the powder brown was doing the same thing, with very rapid respiration. So, I immediately did a 50% water change (with Chloroquine), but then decided to put in a carbon filter in case the Chloroquine was the cause of their problems. <Good moves... I'd also add more aeration> I fear I will lose these guys. I am not sure what could be wrong; do you have any ideas? <Mmm... some sort of proliferation of microbes... perhaps a chemical interaction with the water, and?> Have you had experience with Chloroquine causing this? <I have not> Do you have any suggestions of what I can do quickly to save them? <Not quickly, no. But doing what you have... water changes, adding carbon... should... and I would look instead to restoring near NSW Spg and using a copper cpd. here... chelated...> I cannot move them back into the display tank very fast since the specific gravity is significantly better. Thanks in advance for your advice, Kayla <Thank you for sharing. Bob Fenner>

Re: puffer/lionfish with Ick : (    1/21/09 I read the article you asked me and many more. The treatment is working and all ich appears to be gone. <Ahh!> The directions on the quinine sulfate bottle are not that clear. they say to ad .25 tsp for every ten gallons, once every three days with a 25% water change in-between treatments. Then it says 3 consecutive treatments is equal to a 9 day continual bath. then it goes on to the warning statements. my question is what do I do after a 9 day continual bath? Do I stop treatment and see if any ich appear? <Mmm, yes> Or do I keep treating? <I would cease after the three exposures> Also the puffer is still not eating. He will chase the food around and attempt to bite it but then just let is go. <Not to worry...> Are spiny Burrfish (spiny box puffer via liveaquaria.com) especially hard to get eating? <Sometimes, yes... and go on feeding strikes at times for no apparent reason... Which you'd know had you searched on WWM, read before writing...> What are your suggestions on the Quinine Sulfate and the puffers "eating problems" thanks for all the help/info, you guys have helped me save some very beloved fish, Mike <Please... I've already referred you to where to educate yourself... Do go there. B>

Yet Another Ich Question, Quinine cpd.s  12/29/08 Hi WWM Crew, <Greg> Like so many other marine aquarists, I am having a terrible time dealing with ich. <Ah, yes... a scourge. Likely one of the chief reasons folks give up on the hobby... An issue/factor that's been with "us" as long as the hobby has... And one that I tried repeatedly (and haven't given up) addressing the trade re... See my letter archived here: http://wetwebmedia.com/AqBizSubWebIndex/ltrquartrdbiz.htm> I first got the infestation in my 400 gallon, mostly FOWLR (I do have a couple of shrimp, urchins, and an anemone), display tank back in July of this year. I initially tried dealing with it by feeding food soaked in Selcon/Garlic but things progressed to the point where I decided to treat with Cupramine in a hospital tank. <No fun for sure> I acquired a used 240 gallon acrylic tank and treated my fish for 28 days with Cupramine which cured the ich. I then kept my fish for another 4 weeks in the hospital tank so that my display remained fallow for a total of 8 weeks. Getting all my fish into the hospital tank was a huge undertaking and included draining my display and removing 525 lbs of live rock in order to catch the fish. <Ughh!> My fish finally went back into the display tank at the end of October. Things initially looked good for 2-3 weeks when, to my surprise, the ich returned. In the interim, I gave away the hospital tank thinking that, with my 60 gallon quarantine tank I would never need such a large tank for treatment again. At this point I am very frustrated. I have thousands of dollars worth of very rare, expensive fish including a prized Conspicuous Angel with Cryptocaryon. The fish are actually all eating well/behaving normally, but they definitely have the disease. At this point, having tried the copper/fallow approach I am ready to treat my entire display tank, liverock included. Initially, I was thinking of Cupramine but I am aware it would be nearly impossible to get a therapeutic concentration with all of the live rock. <Correct... I would not do this... use copper of any sort here> Also, I would like to be able to return the inverts to the tank after treatment. I have been reading about Quinine Sulphate available from National Fish Pharmacy on your website. I have several questions pertaining to its use that I have not found answers for. Is it absorbed by the live rock? <To a minor extent, yes> Will I be able to keep inverts in the tank again after its use and removal with carbon/Poly filters? <Mmm... possibly... both this (QS) and Chloroquine Phosphate (CP) are toxic to some algae, invertebrate groups, along with Protists... really can't be used/recommended for application in a "reef" system> Can I expect a huge ammonia spike from die off from the live rock? <Is possible, yes> (mine is actually quite bare from being continually pecked at by angels/puffers/triggers so I am not really sure how "live" it is). Will it wipe out my biological filter leaving me with an uncycled tank? <Not likely here> My case is a little unique in that my live rock is worth significantly less than my livestock. I am willing to sacrifice it if I can rid my display of this disease. Thank you very much for your time. Greg Cohen <I do wish I had better "news"... there are probiotics, "vaccines" sold for Cryptocaryon... but not in the U.S. as yet... I would try reducing Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOCs) through the use of Ozone here (steady, high RedOx really is a very good adjunct to boosting immune systems approaches)... this may shift the balance here to your advantage. I do hope your fishes rally... Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/redox.htm and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>

Re: Yet Another Ich Question, Quinine cpd.s  12/30/08 Bob, <Tom, thanks much for chiming in... I/we do delete folks emails, including their addresses daily... but I do hope the querior sees your input> Thought I might respond to this since I have a lot of 'experience' dealing with the Quinine, and to answer some of his questions: It definitely is toxic to invertebrates other than hermit crabs. It kills snails in a matter of hours if not minutes. It can be removed with a skimmer, Polyfilter and water changes and inverts can be returned to the tank after these measures are taken. It does not cause a sizable spike in ammonia, as it does not seem to harm the biological filter. or at least has not in my usage of it. Oddly enough, it will completely destroy Cyanobacteria with one dose. The problem is, I'm not sure how effective it is on this mega strain of Ich. It can control it, but I have not been able to eradicate it. I ended up disposing of my Atlantic Blue Tang because he seemed to be a 'carrier' of sorts, meaning after the medication is removed he contracted ich again every time. My other fish, that being the Passer Angel, Yellow Tang, and Lunare Wrasse (Oh, and Lawnmower Blenny) are all resistant, so it would seem. I had the same issue as this guy, in that to set up a hospital tank in order to allow the main system to 'fallow' was quite impractical due to the size requirements. I feel his pain. <Me too> The question I have now is, and Bob, it would pretty much be your opinion, is that I want to introduce a few more fish to the tank once we are settled. What species or genus maybe do you feel are most resistant to ich? <There are a few groups, species that tend toward either end of the spectrum here> The Atlantic Blues are definitely not. and I don't think I want to go with another tang anyhow. Surely there are some types of fish that are more resistant. I'm thinking now it's not a matter of choice for me, but more of what can be considered an option. <... Mmm, please do see the list (of families of fishes) listed in particular at the Cryptocaryon area... these are the more sensitive/potential carriers, "hard to cures"... at the other end of the spectrum...Triggers are tough, basses by and large...> I'm currently in the process of skimming out the Quinine and doing some partials. After a week or so I'm going to reintroduce my QT'd live rock and stars, snails, hermits, pods, etc. After a week or so of observation, I will have the 20 gallon available for a QT tank. I do not know, though, if I have eliminated the Ick because I removed the fish that could not resist it (while continuing the treatment) or whether I've got Ick still in the tank. I feel as if it's still there, and if that's the case, I'd like an opinion as to fish with the best possible chance of resistance. This has been a very trying experience, and I wish him the best of luck. Thomas <Again, much thanks. BobF>

Re: ich? copper not curing it if so - possibly Brooklynellosis? 12/27/08 Bob: Thank you very much for your prompt response and advise, including a reply on Xmas day - now that is absolute dedication that all of us WWM users can't thank you enough for providing such wonderful "service". <Welcome James> I did see this Chloroquine Phosphate treatment protocol on WWM 4+ weeks ago when I first started researching how to go about dealing with my sick fish. And I even tried to get my hands on some of this stuff, but I kept running into websites that required prescriptions.... So I decided to go the tried and true route of copper, but now appreciate that I need to try this new method. This morning, I was able to find a website that will send Chlor Phos without an Rx - the URL for this site is as follows: http://www.drugdelivery.ca/s33577-s-CHLOROQUINE-PHOSPHATE.aspx <Thank you very much for this> They charge approx $85 inclusive of shipping for qty 100; 500mg tablets (or 50 grams). <Yeeikes! And oh my! This is a BUNCH of material> I will execute the suggested protocol of 20mg/l (or 3,780 mg for 50 gallons) on day 1, followed by 50% water change 7 days later and redose of 10mg/l (or 1,890 mg/50G) repeated 2 more times after that (a total of 4 dosings). I also understand the lighting should be kept off for the entire 1 month of treatment. <Yes... thank you for this as well. Fellow WWM Crewmember ScottV is visiting and we were just talking about the photosensitivity of this compound> Should I at least keep a ceiling light turned on for 10-12 hrs per day? <I would, yes> I will certainly let you know how effective this treatment was for me in approx 7 weeks (it takes up to 3 weeks for the CP tablets to be sent, since they are coming from a pharmacy in India). <I see...> In the meantime (3 weeks or so till dosing begins), beyond good husbandry of constant water changes (with siphoning bare bottom) and smart feedings (with Selcon and / or Garlic), is there anything I need to do, to give these guys the best chance of survival? <Mmm... I would not change anything here really> They do not appear to be "sick" beyond the obvious exterior visual signs of parasites. Meaning, they are all eating vigorously, they are not going to the surface, they are not breathing rapidly, or swimming erratically (beyond occasional attempts to scratch themselves on PVC), etc. The only one I am a bit concerned about is the PB Tang - his tail seems to be regenerating, but is still missing a good 20% of volume. I am attaching a picture (this time MaxiJet 1200 with venturi attachment turned off, so air bubbles not present in pix). Lastly - I appreciate the use of CP to treat Ich seems to be a fairly new practice, and therefore there may still be some unknowns, including long term affects, etc, but I was hoping you may have input to this question: can CP be used for incoming stock in QT as a prophylactic measure? <Mmm, I don't know this, or much else re CP either... I want to be clear, honest... as always... and state that I have no (zip, zero) experience with this material... And my current gung-ho attitude may be misleading others... I had just read some accounts, including in the new disease tome by Bob Goemans and Lance Ichinotsubo... and am hopeful... The cpd. is tried and true in terms of efficacy with humans...> For guys like me that clearly can't distinguish the tell tale signs of Ich (even after 4+ wks of QT on all incoming stock) would the use of this medication possibly help avoid a future infestation of MDT? As I am sure you can personally appreciate, and have heard a 1000 times over from your dedicated readers, no one wants to ever have to battle something like this more than once...... Thanks again for your time, experience, passion and dedication to helping your fellow aquarists! Sincerely, Jim <Again, my ongoing thanks to you Jim... please do relate your further experiences here. Cheers, Bob Fenner>

Re: ich? copper not curing it if so - possibly Brooklynellosis?   1/11/09 Bob - hotmail appears to be garbling this ethread pretty badly, but hopefully below is not needed to support this question as it only requires yes or no: The Chloroquine Phosphate tablets arrived from the pharmacy in India yesterday. My question is - should I remove the carbon filled filter media from top filter during treatment? <Yes> I don't have a skimmer or any other form of filter (except 3 sponge filters) in this 50G hospital tank. Thanks and I'll let you know how this works for me in 4 weeks. <Thank you> Jim PS - I lost the power blue tang to this "super ich" strain a few days ago. The rest of them seem fine though. I started the "no light" part of this treatment a couple days ago, just to see how they would behave / react to feedings, etc. They seem very skittish with no light, but did eat all the food I put in (from bottom of tank as opposed to how they normally come right to feeding site at top of tank). Not sure how this lack of light will affect them for 1 month? <As long as there is some outside light the fishes will be fine... there are meteorological events that make it very dark underwater, sometimes for weeks at a time, in the wild> Sounds like many other hobbyists have done this previously, so I guess they will be fine. <Yes. Steady on Jim. BobF>

Thomas Roach Ick Omnibus, formaldehyde, quinine f's -12/11/08 Hello Mr. Fenner and others, <Thomas> Thought I would give you an update on my situation, as I'm hoping you are still familiar with it? Mainly to serve as a warning to others and emphasize the dire need for quarantining livestock, because once you get this resistant strain of Ick in your tank it is not coming out with ease? <Ah yes> We moved a couple of weeks ago and of course the fish still had Ick? I disposed of most of my sand bed to get to 1? or less for maintenance purposes, changed 100% of the water and still had the infestation. I treated it with a Formalin product similar to quick cure, which again reduced the Ick while the treatment was ongoing, but with this strain WHAT FORMALIN BASED MEDS SEEM TO DO is allow the remaining Ick to come back at much greater numbers and strength? why this is, I do not know but it has happened both times I have treated with the Formalin based products. <A useful observation, note> This treatment I have gone back to the Quinine Sulfate (by stock in Natl. Fish Pharm if they offer it, I'm funding the place :-) ), and I seem to be having better results completely by accident! In some foggy haze I quadrupled the original dose for this size tank somehow, and it seems as though it has proven to be more effective at a ridiculously high dose. After a 3 day period I did NOT do a partial as recommended and treated at regular dosage, and after the 2nd 3 day period I treated at 1 ½ times the recommended dosage. The fish, into day 8, show no signs of Ick, whereas they have in the past treatments. I'm not overly confident yet, but I'll post results as we go. If other hobbyists had any clue what I am dealing with, there would never be an email to you regarding skipping quarantine, and I cant stress it enough to your readers how much misery it can cause. Thomas Roach <Thank you for reports on this ongoing exercise. Bob Fenner>

Re: Ick-  12/11/08 Thanks, Bob... let me restress how TOUGH this is... to me far worse than Oodinium simply because you cannot get rid of it. I have the salinity at 1.017, <Has to be much lower... 1.012, perhaps under 1.010 to really mal-affect the Cryptocaryon... at this level... most of your fishes as well...> temp at 82, and water full of meds and it is still resistant! QT all your fish!!!!! This makes African cichlids look mighty tempting again. <Ah yes... or even Guinea Pigs!> On a side note, Quinine is quite effective at destroying Cyanobacteria... at least it had one pleasant result... gone with one dose. Thomas Roach <Silver linings... BobF>

Ich Treatment/Quarantine Cleaning 11/17/08 Hi folks, <Elsie.> Well, it's been two weeks since I tried to do a 100% water change on the QT tank and I guess it didn't work because I think I see spots on the blue tang and the Sailfin tang. So frustrating! <Tis frustrating.> Should I try the copper again for two weeks, or should I try hyposalinity? Quick Cure? <Do a Google search re Chloroquine phosphate on WWM and the web. Just safer, less toxic, this is the stuff to use here. It can be hard to find, the "in the know" LFS now carry it, otherwise do call a vet or check the web. One source: http://www.spectrumchemical.com/retail/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=Chemicals&product%5Fid=6647185. Most chemical supplies will have this too. Dose at 10mg/L.> Thanks in advance Elise <Welcome, Scott V.>

Re: Ich Treatment/Quarantine Cleaning 11/17/08 Scott, Thanks so much for your reply. <Welcome.> I have never heard of the stuff before. <Many...most have not.> I've been glued to my computer digesting all the FAQ's on the subject. A couple of things I'm wondering if you could clear up for me: Why Chloroquine Phosphate as opposed to quinine sulfate? <They are completely different compounds.> The quinine sulfate seems readily available from that phispharm place. The link to spectrum you provided asked me to submit a form, wanted to know the name of my organization, etc. <A pain, just one source.> I will try calling some local vets. <Some will know, others will not. Keep chemical supply houses in mind too. A quick explanation of what you are doing may be necessary.> Will the stuff have any effect on biological filtration? <Supposedly not, I do have my doubts, though have not quantified them.> I read that person's post about dosing 20ppm then waiting a week, doing 50% percent change, dosing 10ppm, repeating three more weeks. I am still combating ammonia, doing daily water changes. I guess I'd have to redose with each water change? <Yes, prorated of course.> Could get pricey, no? <Comparative to other treatment and depending on the source it could, but it works!> Thanks for your assistance, Scott, I'm very anxious to try this chemical, as I do feel that my tangs suffer in the copper. <They do.> Elise <Scott V.>

Re: Chloroquine Phosphate Use 11/20/08
Hello again Scott, I hope you won't mind me troubling you again with a couple more questions.
<Hello Elsie, not at all.>
I have ordered some Chloroquine phosphate from fishchemical.com.
<Great resource! Thank you for this.>
I am starting to get nervous about using a chemical I can't test for.
<I know the feeling, no practical method for the home aquarist.>
The only procedure that I've been able to find on how to use the stuff is the one described by a hobbyist on WWM's FAQ's: Start with double dose of 20mg/L, after a week 50% water change and add 10mg/L, after a week 50% water change and add 10mg/L, after a week 50% water change and add 10mg/L one last time. Is this what you would recommend, or would you do 10mg/L from the beginning, or a different procedure entirely?<The basic procedure is fine, but I would start with the 10mg/L dose. I have heard of some using the 20mg/L initially, but the lower dosage is tried and true.>Do I need to keep treatment going for a month?<I would, is the recommended protocol.>I think I will be doing water changes pretty frequently because of ammonia, I will have to carefully calculate how much CP to add, yes?<Yes.>If my math is right, I would want 757mg for my 20 gallon tank (20 gallons=75.7 liters, 10mg/L is 757), and if I did a 50% water change I would add 378mg. Do I have this right? <Yes.>Should I keep the aquarium light off during treatment?<An important point I neglected to mention previously. This compound is photosensitive. Do leave any lights off.>OK, this is more than a couple of questions (sorry), but after all the time, money, and energy I've put into saving these fish, I really don't want to make any fatal mistakes now.<Understood.>One last question (promise!) Is this medication is a good idea for any type of marine fish in need of treatment for crypt?<I have never heard of nor read about any contradictions to use with fish.>I thank you again, and my fish thank you as well!Elise <Welcome, do let us know how it goes. Scott V.>

Chloroquine Phosphate Source 10/28/08 Hi Crew, <Matt.> Thanks for all you do for the hobby! I have noticed recently on the 'dailies' that Bob is very excited about the prospects of Chloroquine phosphate as a treatment for Ich and the like. I was interested in finding out where this medication may be available for future reference, so I did a bit of googling (not sure that's a word lol) and found that it is the active ingredient in a medication named Avlocor (in the UK at least). Avlocor is an anti-malarial drug in 250mg tablet form and is obtainable without a prescription at the following link - http://www.chemistdirect.co.uk/avloclor-250mg-chloroquine-phosphate-tablets_1_3474.html -for a very reasonable price. Would this be a form of Chloroquine Phosphate that would be able to be utilised in the aquarium, and if so how much would an effective dose be? <It should work out fine. 10 mg/l would be the dose. I don't know what it cost you, but this can be had through many chemical supply companies, with many "in the know" LFS keeping some on hand.> Thanks for your hard work and commitment, Matt. <Welcome and thank you, Scott V.> <BTW, thank you very much for sharing your finds. Scott V.>

Re: Chloroquine phosphate Source 10/29/08 Hi Scott, <Hey there Matt.> Thanks for the response. The cost of these tablets is £1.89 (~$3.10) for a pack of 20, 250mg tablets. <Geez, pharmaceuticals cost sooo much here in the U.S.> If my math is correct this works out at 3.7 pence (~6 cents) per 100 mg. I don't know if this is expensive or cheap as I am having a hard time finding a chemical supplier who stocks it. <Tis cheap, for my area!> Maybe it's easier in the US (I'm in the UK). <Is prescription as a drug from my knowledge.> At 10mg/l recommended dosage, I presume the easiest way to dose it would be to dissolve a 250mg tablet in 25l of saltwater and use this for start-up water in a hospital tank and subsequent water changes. What do you think? <This could work, yes.> I also asked about its use, in case there were any other ingredients in this 'designed for human's' tablet that would mal-affect fish and/or inverts. Do you think there are? <Doubtful, more like fillers and binders.> How effective would you consider this as a treatment for Ich, in relation to copper or hypo? <Very effective in my experience, can be used along with hypo. Do realize this drug is photo sensitive, it will degrade with strong lighting.> Thanks for your time, Matt. <Welcome, Scott V.>

Hurricanes, Ick, and the like... 10/16/08 Well, folks. Thought I'd tell you a story and present you with a new spin on and old issue and throw an idea at you. <Ok> First, the trials. I have written you in the past for advice for taking a tank through a power outage lasting several days, and due to Hurricane Ike, we had an opportunity to put this to test. I am glad to report that this was a success! Using a 6000 watt generator, I was able to run the filters for one to two hours every 5 to 6 hours to keep the tank 'breathing' (Also running refrigerator, freezer, TV on occasion, some box fans, and a window unit in the bedroom..). I am proud to say that I had cold beer throughout our outage. <There is something to this> but I digress. When the tank temp seemed to be creeping up a bit high, I would put a 2 liter bottle of ice in the sump while the filters were on, cooling the water a bit. After 5 days, we finally got power back, and all fish were alive and in good health. so it would seem. Not sure if it was the absence of lighting for 5 days, or the fluctuations in temperature, but the fish were stressed of course. and a single fish contracted Ick. Now, a quick recap is that we decided we had a 'subclinical' Ick infestation, which was fine as long as it stayed 'sub'. Months ago I had purchased an Atlantic Blue Tang, which has done just fine with it's tankmates. Those are a Passer Angel, Lunare Wrasse, Yellow Tang, Tomato Clown, two damsels, and a cleaner wrasse that has defied it's life expectancy. The ABT is the only fish now that has contracted Ick (of course it's present in the entire tank. why the other fish are so resistant, I could not tell you). <Previous good care, genetic heritage> I have been treating this tank with Quinine Sulfate. <Do try Chloroquine phosphate next time...> we went through an initial treatment, the Ick remained, we are now in day 5 of a 9 day treatment. I still have signs of Ick on the ABT in day five. Prior to treatment, I set up my 20 gallon tank and put as much LR as possible in there, along with a chocolate chip (been with me for years), a serpent, and sand sifting starfish, copepods, along with as many snails as I could find and remove. The quinine is quite effective on them, since unfortunately I had to remove a number of snails from the main tank after they were deceased and revealed. This 20 gallon tank will remain fallow for at least another two to three weeks (already been over two). I am beginning to wonder how effective this Quinine will be on the Ick remaining in the main tank. Basically, I have a 200g fish tank devoid of life, with the exception of a) the fish, b) the living bacteria in the rocks, and c) the Ick. Here's the dilemma. I am formulating a plan c ( the a. was the subclinical existence, the b. is the quinine). Copper is no option since we do not want copper absorbed in the rock and silicone, etc. I have purchased with dread a bottle of Quick Cure (formalin & Mal. Green) and it sits atop the tank leering at me, still in it's packaging. Long ago, I had used it with good results, then not knowing it's dark side. Here I am faced again with a possibility of using it. If I use it, I can get it out with carbon, water changes, and Polyfilters, I think. Tangs though, are sensitive to it, yes? <More so than other species... formalin is a general biocide... crosslinks peptides (longer versions of which are proteins)... all life> I've thought about dips/baths, but this is really pointless if there is Ick left in the tank. To fallow the tank would require another tank of great size to house these fish for another 4 to 6 weeks, again not an option, especially when you're looking at treating sensitive tangs with the same medications anyhow. So I am considering the Formalin at half strength, wondering if this would even be effective in a partial dose. <Mmm, no to partial dosing> Also, for your readers, I did use something I had written about a while back, ParaGuard by Seachem. I can only say that it is not effective with this 'resistant' strain of Ick I have. perhaps it would be in other circumstances. Thomas Roach <Thank you for the report Thomas. BobF>

Re: Hurricanes, Ick, and the like... 10/16/08 Chloroquine phosphate? Hmm.... I have never heard of this. Is there a common name for the product, or know where it's available? I'll do a search for it and see what I can find as well. <Search WWM re...> Would you recommend the Quick Cure as a course of action, and if so, any specific precautions in respect to my situation? <See WWM re Formalin and Malachite...> Thanks again, Bob. I don't get to write as often due to lack of problems, but I always enjoy the replies... Thomas Roach <BobF>

Re: Hurricanes, Ick, and the like...  10/17/08 Been reading... and reading... and reading. My wife is a Vet Tech and I'm having her ask the Doc if he has the Chloroquine Phosphate. I've been calling around to local LFS's and I can imagine the blank stares that accompany the vocal responses. One recommended something called Kordon's Ick Attack or some herbal remedy. What a poor bit of advice. I remember you asking one of your readers if they would want to treat their child with tea tree oil if sick, and I thought that was such a good analogy that I now tell people the same thing. I think that if her Doc can obtain the CP, I might give it a go, but I have no clue as to what form it would come in or what dose to administer... He's treated horses, dogs, sea lions, etc..., but fish? I don't know. <Mmm, there are a bunch of vet's that "cross over" to exotics, including aquatic animals... and Chloroquine IS the latest and greatest...> As for the Quick Cure, of course no previous situation matches mine exactly, but that is to be expected. <Look to the ingredients> It seems to be an effective treatment if administered carefully, I'm worried now about it's effect on the biological filter. <Destroys> There seem to be mixed opinions on the subject. And then, if you add one drop per gallon, but only do a 25% water change, wouldn't adding another drop per gallon for the next treatment overdose the medication? <Mmm, not likely... the ingredients... are quite transient... get "used up" quickly. B> Seems a bit risky if you ask me. Tonight I need to do a 25% water change and administer the last Quinine dose, so I have three more days to decide. I can tell that the Quinine does have some effect... without it, the tang has Ick every morning. I have not seen it, or at least seen it in great quantity, since the treatment began. I just wonder why it returns if the medicine kills it. <Mmm, a few poss. The intermediates are shielded most likely> Thomas Roach

Re: Ich Treatment  10/17/08 I have read the FAQs on Chloroquine and I placed a order through an online company, but they called today and stated that they cannot ship the item to a residential address. Do you have any confirmed sites that can send the prescription without a Rx from a doctor? Any suggestions would be appreciated. <I'd try your local veterinarian. BobF>

More Re: Hurricanes, Ick, and the like... 10/28/08, 11/13/08 <<RMF>> Hello Mr. Fenner, <Bob is out away from the net for a bit. Scott V. with you here.> No resolve yet, but updates for you and results of things attempted... <Okay.> I went with the Quick Cure treatment, with much worry. I used daily for four days, one drop per gallon, monitoring water conditions and carefully observing the fish. Both tangs did fine through the treatment, and the ich disappeared for the four days. It did not kill the bio filter, either that or monitoring of the water conditions plus immediate water change after day four prevented any issues. <<Mmm... much more likely that either the bottle of QC was not potent or that the make-up of your water/system absorbed the principal ingredient (Formalin)>> However on day five, after rerunning the skimmer and carbon, the next day the ich returned worse than ever, again only on the Atlantic Blue Tang. <<More evidence of the above>> This was Saturday morning. I had one treatments worth of Quinine Sulfate left, which I administered immediately. (I have not as of yet located the Chloroquine Sulfate, my wife's Vet was not familiar with it.) <<Mmm, phosphate, not sulfate>> <A treatment of growing popularity, though still hard to find. Bob Goemans had a great article on the subject in the Sept. 08 FAMA, with some sources for Chloroquine phosphate, one of which is http://www.spectrumchemical.com/retail/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=Chemicals&product%5Fid=6647185. Most chemical supplies will have this.> The Quinine must have severely reduced the ich, as Sunday and Monday mornings there were some present on the fish, but not near the number as Saturday morning. <It can be an effective treatment.> Prescription says to treat these fish in a nine day continual bath... but I'm thinking that perhaps twelve days or longer might be appropriate for this resistant strain. I have never seen anything quite like this. Again, I'll follow up with results/progress, but if you awaken in the night with an amazing idea, please reply! <I will drop this in Bob's box just in case he does have more to add when he gets back. Do keep us posted.> Thanks again, we're struggling but pressing on... <Welcome, a steady course my friend. Scott V.> <<Thank you Scott, Tom. BobF>>

My fish are infested with ich, SW, reading  -- 10/10/08 Greetings , <Salutations> My fish are infested with ich. I currently have them in a 10 gallon tank, and am treating them with copper. I should have a larger tank as there is a Yellow Tang, Sailfin Tang , Hippo Tang, Flame Angel, and a Bicolor Angel all sharing mouse 10 gallon quarantine tank. <... dangerous... too much life period, physio- and psycho-logically squeezed in here> The copper treatment is about 5-7 days, <I would not use copper on Tangs or Centropyge... Do (quickly) read about Chloroquine use here> which hopefully will cure the fish. <Mmm... too likely not... hard to keep a physiological dose up in such a setting... and too toxic...> However, ich is still present in the display tank, <Yes> and is bound to re-infect the fish if I put them back into the tank, which means that I should leave the display tank empty without fish for a while. <Correct> My question is, how long? <At least four weeks... longer, better> I read about 31 days, but then again, I read that the ich can remain alive for months even without a host present. <Can> I am going to raise the temperature to 82-85 in the main tank, but am concerned about the livestock remaining in the tank which are two lettuce Nudibranch, one scooter blenny (which we have not been able to catch), one Coral Banded Shrimp, too cleaner shrimp, about 80 snails, several red leg crabs, a Sally Lightfoot, and a wonderful, slithery white ribbon-like eel. <... the eel is/will act as a reservoir host here... Do you realize this?> Which of these critters is susceptible to ich? I have read that eels are somewhat resistant, is this true? <Yes> I do not want to go through the procedure of leaving this tank fallow for however long is necessary, only to put the fish back in for them to get re-infested. <... Understood> I really appreciate your help and advice with this problem. Best regards, Jeff <Mmm, well... T'were it me, I would NOT treat the families of fishes mentioned with Copper for Cryptocaryon... and NOT in such a small volume... the Eel needs to be removed... and you need to read re the use of Quinine cpd.s... Stat! Bob Fenner>

Re: My fish are infested with ich, SW, reading Chloroquine  -- 10/10/08 Advice taken Bob, thank you very much for your prompt reply. Best regards, Just Castaldo <I am very excited to find this anti malarial being found to be of such great use... and look forward to the price dropping, its availability improving with increased interest. Cheers, BobF>

Ich, copper and DT    7/24/08 Hello, <Hi there> I was wondering if you could offer some advice in regards to my ich problem. I have a 150gal FOWLR display tank and a 40gal QT. Unfortunately the fish I have are too many and too large to be able to treat in my QT. So after doing some research I came to the conclusion that the best course of action is to remove the LR from the DT, put it in a large container with salt water, heater and powerhead, remove all my inverts and place them in my separate fuge, then treat the DT and fish with copper. <... a very poor idea> What do you think? Would you advise this? <No and no> The DT would have only the fish and 1" live sand. <... the copper won't stay in solution, and you'll be killing most all in the LS> There would be no inverts or LR at all. <So?> I plan to treat using Cupramine. <A good product I'll warrant, but won't work here> How long should I treat the tank? <I wouldn't... you'll find that you are unable to "keep" a therapeutic dose of copper in such a setting... too quickly adsorbed...> Would 3 weeks get rid of the ich on the fish and the DT? The live rock, I would leave in the separate container for 6 weeks and I would leave the fuge disconnected from the main sump also for 6 weeks. Thank you for any help you can provide. -Peter <Happy to banter with you... If you're set on trying a cure in the main set-up, I'd look into (and quickly) the use of Chloroquine phosphate... the search tool, on WWM, the Net... Bob Fenner>

Re: Ich, copper and DT   7/24/08 Hello, <Peter> Thank you for the quick reply. <Deemed necessary... as is this resp. here> So the copper treatment would be ineffective because the copper would be absorbed by the live sand and keeping the correct concentration would be difficult? <Adsorbed> Would I be able to keep the correct concentration if I test the copper level daily and add as necessary? <No... have tried this... with many gallons of Cupramine... in commercial settings... over decades of time... You don't have to repeat my lack of success. Won't work> Would hyposalinity work better in this case? Maybe keep the display tank and fish in hypo for 4 weeks. <... sorry to state, I don't have time to re-write all of this... IS posted on WWM, in books, articles penned by me...> I understand the live sand would die in both cases. But with hyposalinity, it would re-populate once the live rock is added back to the tank. Plus I would be able to return the inverts once the treatment is over. Something I can't do if using copper. Thank you for the suggestion of using Chloroquine phosphate. I will research it on the net and WWM. -Peter <I would... and quickly. BobF>

Re: Ich, copper and DT   7/25/08 Hello again, <Peter> Thank you for the reply. I looked into Chloroquine phosphate. Unfortunately I don't have access to this medicine. <Ah, yes... perhaps worth the time, trouble to try to buy through veterinary or human sources...> It would probably take me a long time to obtain it and by then, all my fish would be infested with ich. Interesting enough, my 2 triggers have yet to display any signs of ich, <Balistids are "tougher", often sub-clinical> while all the other fish have at least a few specks. But I guess that's what makes Triggers so resilient. Again, I appreciate the help. But I have to act fast, so hyposalinity will have to do for now. If ich does come back months down the road, I will be better prepared with a proper sized QT. -Peter <You may well be faced with, defaulting to a (very common) choice of having an ongoing-infested system... See WWM re. Bob Fenner>

Marine ich treatment, Chloroquine Phosphate   7/22/08 To the Crew at WWM: <Gene> For many years you've helped fellow hobbyists through their troubles including myself. This time I do not have a question but I would like to share my experience with the fight I've been having for YEARS against ich. <Please do> Before I begin I would like to remind everyone that proper quarantine is essential. It is NOT an option. A QT system can be set up in an out of the way place (mine's in the laundry room). My QT system is a 50 gal. AGA with a 15w UV, large Aquaclear power filter, CPR BakPak skimmer, heater and a variety of plants and PVC sections. This is what's worked for me, especially since I usually have a couple of fish in QT so I needed the extra room. My usual protocol would be to let the new fish settle in for about a week <A very good practice> and then begin hyposalinity therapy as a prophylactic measure for 3 weeks then slowly bring the SG back up. Many people, myself included, can't wait to get their new fish into their main system and don't have the patience to wait the month or so. Try to think of how healthy the fish will be and the long term enjoyment that will come from having that healthy fish in your system. In the meanwhile you'll be able to observe your new fish while in QT. <Good spiel> As stated earlier I have been battling ich for YEARS with what I believe now to be a very resistant strain. I don't like to use chemicals so I've tried hyposalinity many times only for the parasite to reappear. I always QT my fish with an average QT period of 4 - 6 weeks. Awhile back, I read an article in FAMA about a product called Chloroquine phosphate ( CP ). The author, Bob Goemans, also has a book out that I obtained which explained the new chemical treatment. My system is a 210 gal. AGA FOWLR with a sump capacity of 75 gal. and a 55 gal. refugium.. After I turned off my UV, Ozonizer, Skimmer and refugium I began the treatment. At first I didn't lower the salinity so the effectiveness was in question. A week later I began hyposalinity (SG 1.009) with a CP treatment. One week later the fish were looking amazingly well. However, when I finished my first treatment and began increasing the salinity, the ich returned. It was then I began believing the parasite needs to go through its life cycle in order for many treatments to be successful. I took a deep breath, regrouped and went a different route. The following is what I did next. On 5/19 I began treatment with CP. The first dose was a double dose of 20/ppm. and I did not use hyposalinity. My SG was 1.018 which was been slowly raised to 1.022.. On 5/26 I did a 50% water change and added the second dose. This time at 10/ppm. On 6/3 I did another 50% water change and added the third dose, again at 10/ppm. On 6/10 I performed the final 50% water change and add the final dose at 10/ppm. I turned on my skimmer on 6/28 and turned on the UV and reconnected my refugium on 7/5. On July 8th. all fish were doing well with no signs of parasites. I even introduced a Cortez angelfish and 6 chalk basses on July 1st that were appropriately quarantined for 6 weeks and they too are looking good. It's now July 22nd and the fish in my tank have never looked better!! At this point I have to believe the CP was definitely effective in eliminating Cryptocaryon that is a thorn in the side of many hobbyists. It appears the correct protocol is as described above; do not use hyposalinity with the CP treatment, use a double dose of 20ppm with first dose, 10ppm for the next three doses with all doses precluded with a 50% water change. (Of course not to be used in the presence of photosynthetic organisms). The Crew has helped many hobbyists over the years that I hope my experience will also help other hobbyists out there an alternative procedure in the battle against ich. It is not safe with photosynthetic organisms but it appears to not have any negative effect on shrimp nor crabs. Gene <Thank you for sharing your information and passion Gene. Much appreciated. Bob Fenner> Stumped on med effects, Quinine    6/19/08 Hopefully you are familiar with my Ick battle, but if not, the short version is that I am treating my main tank with quinine sulfate to combat the resistant strain of Ick. If Bob is the recipient of this email, he is very familiar? if not, trust that he and I have had extensive emails that led to this course of action? and a new problem has arisen which I need some assistance on. The entire tank has turned green. The two tangs, a yellow and an Atlantic Blue, have not shown any problems. The Passer Angel has show some uncomfortable reaction, and the Lunare Wrasse has gone into hiding due to it. It has also effected a cleaner wrasse (purchased long ago, before I became ?informed?), in that he eats, but cannot swim normally anymore, seems extremely imbalanced. The quinine treatment, as recommended by Natl. Fish Pharm, was 3 treatments, 3 day durations per treatment, changing 25% of the water prior to each treatment. Treatments one and two were fine, but my quinine supply was gone and I had another batch aired in for treatment 3. This third treatment turned the tank a nasty green color, killing all snails (which were removed), and causing this odd reaction from the fish. The only other thing that was added to the tank was something called ?Prime? by SeaChem, to neutralize Ammonia and Nitrites, after the snail kill off. This was done in conjunction with adding carbon, restarting the skimmer and UV filter, and a large water change. I had to go out of town for a day after this, and returning yesterday afternoon the water seemed to be as green as before. (this is not algae bloom green, btw). Again, I did a 30% water change, added more carbon, etc. I noticed some improvement this morning in both color of the water and the fish, except for the small cleaner wrasse, who maintains his imbalance. Last night, after the water change, all fish had an appetite and fed well. I spoke with NFP Monday regarding whether or not Quinine Sulfate would cause such a massive staining of the water, and they are adamant that it would not. <I have witnessed this change before though... with Quinine... perhaps an indirect effect... killing so much of competing, predatory microbes that others that look green proliferate. I think the change is biological, not simply chemical> I'm wondering if I received something else in powder form by mistake that would cause the above conditions, and does anyone there have any thoughts/guesses on this. Does it sound similar (coloring of water, affecting of specific species-particularly wrasses, invert die-off) to anything you have had experience with? The tank is 150 gallons. The dose was a ¼ teaspoon per 10 gallons. Again, just basically brainstorming, looking for root cause type info. It is probably too late for the little wrasse, I'm hoping all other fish can pull through this. It has certainly made a 150 gallon tank full of African Cichlids sound appealing?. <Mmm, yes> Thanks so much, Thomas Roach <Welcome. BobF>

Re: Stumped on med effects   6/19/08 Thanks, that was as best an assumption as possible. Last night on the way home I stopped and bought the last two Poly-Filters that a LFS had on supply. <Oh, how much I wish I owned the rights to this product!> This morning there was clearly an improvement in water clarity, so we seem to be making some headway. When I got home last night, I thought we had lost the little cleaner wrasse, as he had applied himself to the intake of the FX5 canister filter, which is quite large. I fed some Mysis shrimp and Emerald Entrée, at which time he released himself and fed quite happily with the other fish. It's as if he's lost his equilibrium, and he was just resting in an upright position with the help of the intake volume. Odd. My thoughts would be that tangs would be more sensitive to upset water conditions, <Depends of what nature> and that's what confused me, that being the wrasses are impacted more than the tangs. And of course, why dose 3 would have such a different effect than doses 1 & 2. <Worn tolerance> I will say, though, that the Ick is gone. I sent an email earlier in the week that I believe was lost in the technical issues I read about, that being that since I've added Quinine to the water, it has eliminated all of the Cyanobacteria, every bit of it. Ever heard of that, or thought that it would have that effect? <Yes... and likely malarial Protozoans...> Maybe something good did come out of it all. Thomas Roach <I do hope this is the end of your trials... BobF>

Ich, Crypt... is hypo enough? Diff. of opinions   04/13/2008 I know that a hospital tank is the ideal way to handle an ich outbreak, but before going on vacation three weeks ago my ich returned. In order to act quickly, as I would be gone for a week, I pulled my live rock and sand from the tank and lowered the salt to 1.012. This kept the ich at bay while I was gone and upon returning I lowered it to 1.009. <<Ok....However, always best to get the hyposalinity running while your around the tank, to keep an eye on salinity levels / fluctuations>> It has been this way for over two weeks now. I am wondering if, at this point, what would be the best way to proceed. <<Continue hypo until all traces have gone from the fish, and then monitor for 2 weeks>> My display is bare only containing my fish and I am tempted to just use this as my hospital tank. After two weeks of 1.009 hypo I am still seeing periodic spots on two fish. At what stage in the ich life cycle does the hypo kill it? <<Usually around 2 - 3 weeks before you start to see it disappear>> Is it at the stage where it falls off the fish? <<Yes>> Anyway, I am thinking that I will run the hypo for six weeks and after bringing the salt levels up I will follow with a copper treatment. <<No need for copper treatment after hyposalinity>> I have done copper for four weeks before, only to see the ich return after adding live rock from what I thought was a reputable shop until I found that the live rock tanks run on the same system as the fish tanks. So, this is where I am at now and I want to know what to look for during the Hypo process and if hypo could be enough to solve the problem alone or should I use copper as planned. <<Hypo alone is sufficient. Constant monitoring of the fish through-out the process>> My fish are all thriving in hypo and have shown no behavior changes thus far. <<Glad to hear it>> My tank is running with a wet/dry w/skimmer, an Eheim classic and 25 watt uv. Any suggestions as to how I should proceed would be appreciated. <<As you have already started the hypo treatment in the display tank, you may as well continue this until the end.>> I am hesitating to move the fish into a hospital tank as they are handling the hypo with little stress in the display and I think that I would be best served to do the copper treatment here as well, hoping to finally rid my fish and tank of this problem. <<As said above, after an effective hypo treatment, there should not be any need to use a copper treatment afterwards. Your on the right path to rectifying the Ich. Keep at it, keep water as pristine as possible, test regularly. Hope this helps. Enjoy the weekend. A Nixon>> Thank you, Greg Fasano

Re: Ich, Crypt... is hypo enough? Diff. of opinions (RMF amended title)  04/14/2008 Hey guys, <Thomas> I read this today on the FAQ, thought I'd add a comment since I had a tremendous battle with Ich in my main tank a while back. That Quinine Sulfate I ordered after you guys connected me with that National Fish Pharm really did a wonderful job on my Ich problem and did not harm my biological filter. and, though it's a risk you take, I know that some fan worms survived the treatment as well, as I had some appear some time after the treatment on live rock that had been in the tank during the treatment. I had not added any new rock at the time of it's appearance. From all indications, I had the tough, resistant strain of Ick as well. I recommend it if you have an Ick problem. We've been Ick free for 6 months. Best of luck, Thomas <Thank you for chiming in... with this timely input. Will share. Bob Fenner> Ich, Crypt... is hypo enough? Diff. of opinions (RMF amended title)  04/13/2008 I know that a hospital tank is the ideal way to handle an ich outbreak, but before going on vacation three weeks ago my ich returned. In order to act quickly, as I would be gone for a week, I pulled my live rock and sand from the tank and lowered the salt to 1.012. This kept the ich at bay while I was gone and upon returning I lowered it to 1.009. <<Ok....However, always best to get the hyposalinity running while your around the tank, to keep an eye on salinity levels / fluctuations>> It has been this way for over two weeks now. I am wondering if, at this point, what would be the best way to proceed. <<Continue hypo until all traces have gone from the fish, and then monitor for 2 weeks>> My display is bare only containing my fish and I am tempted to just use this as my hospital tank. After two weeks of 1.009 hypo I am still seeing periodic spots on two fish. At what stage in the ich life cycle does the hypo kill it? <<Usually around 2 - 3 weeks before you start to see it disappear>> Is it at the stage where it falls off the fish? <<Yes>> Anyway, I am thinking that I will run the hypo for six weeks and after bringing the salt levels up I will follow with a copper treatment. <<No need for copper treatment after hyposalinity>> I have done copper for four weeks before, only to see the ich return after adding live rock from what I thought was a reputable shop until I found that the live rock tanks run on the same system as the fish tanks. So, this is where I am at now and I want to know what to look for during the Hypo process and if hypo could be enough to solve the problem alone or should I use copper as planned. <<Hypo alone is sufficient. Constant monitoring of the fish through-out the process>> My fish are all thriving in hypo and have shown no behavior changes thus far. <<Glad to hear it>> My tank is running with a wet/dry w/skimmer, an Eheim classic and 25 watt uv. Any suggestions as to how I should proceed would be appreciated. <<As you have already started the hypo treatment in the display tank, you may as well continue this until the end.>> I am hesitating to move the fish into a hospital tank as they are handling the hypo with little stress in the display and I think that I would be best served to do the copper treatment here as well, hoping to finally rid my fish and tank of this problem. <<As said above, after an effective hypo treatment, there should not be any need to use a copper treatment afterwards. Your on the right path to rectifying the Ich. Keep at it, keep water as pristine as possible, test regularly. Hope this helps. Enjoy the weekend. A Nixon>> Thank you, Greg Fasano

FAQ on Quinine Compounds   8/8/07 This is just some info, since I just used some of this medication, and what I got to experience, if it helps anyone, good. I read all of the Quinine Compound FAQ, there was a lot of negative info on Quinine Hydrochloride. I used Quinine Sulfate, recommended by National Fish Pharmacy, which was very effective on my ich problem. It is not toxic, apparently, to hermit crabs, which I suppose are resilient little creatures, but it is very toxic to other invertebrates! I had 6 turbo snails in the tank (or so I thought) which I removed and placed in my 20 gallon, but apparently I had 8, and within a half hour of adding the Quinine Sulfate, the remaining two snails were belly up on the bottom. It isn't an instant killer, because they were fine after I quickly snatched them out and put them in the other tank. Anyway, I just wrote this to tell about a specific experience. I can see where it can get confusing, i.e. Copper = Good for fish, bad for inverts & sharks; Quinine Hydrochloride = bad for fish and inverts and most likely sharks; Quinine Sulfate = good for fish and sharks, bad for inverts. Oh, and from experience past, Kent Marine RXP = safe for fish and inverts, also safe for ich. DOES NOT WORK. :) Thanks again, gentlemen & ladies... Thomas <Thank you for this input Tom. BobF>

Re: New Ich, Note re Quinine use   8/20/07 Ah! Eureka! Maybe... I consulted National Fish Pharmacy again about the quinine sulfate. Though I treated it as prescribed by the label, I did not turn off my protein skimmer. Now, the label says to turn off any UV filters and remove any carbon, but it said nothing about the skimmer. The guy at NFP said to definitely turn off the skimmer. Just an FYI, for anyone who might use the same treatment. Thomas Roach <Thank you for this. BobF>

Re: Another ich (crypt) question   7/28/07 Hello, Crew <Allan> On following Bob's suggestion for treating resistant strains of crypt, I purchased 100 grams of quinine sulfate. <Grams?!> I searched through the archives and couldn't find anything regarding quinine sulfate and carbon use, and protein skimming. I'm following "normal" protocol for most medications by shutting down the U.V./skimmers and removing carbon. <Good> My question should be directed towards National Fish Pharmacy, but it's early Friday evening and I would rather not wait until Monday for an answer. Can I run the protein skimmers and add carbon with the use of quinine sulfate? Obviously, I would like to maintain optimum water quality if possible. <Quinones are too easily removed by such... I would do as you have. Bob Fenner> Thanks again. You guys/girls are terrific! Allan

Medicine reactions, Quinones, sharks...   7/28/07 Another opinion needed! After speaking with Natl. Fish Pharm, I purchase some quinine sulfate to kill Ick in my tank in the presence of a shark. Though it isn't recommended, we are treating the main system. My snails were removed before treatment and it does not affect the hermit crabs at all. The treatment as prescribed was to add the quinine (done Tuesday) and after five days perform a 25% water change and run carbon to remove the quinine, then after a day repeat the treatment. <Okay> No fish appears to be bothered by the treatment, and they are no longer scratching on rocks at all, so I am sure it is working. My question is about the shark. He still looks really healthy. On Tuesday he ate quite a bit of shark formula w/ Zoe, right after the quinine was added. Day two he came out at feeding time and ate a few pieces. Day three (Thursday) he didn't really show any interest in the food. I've noticed he seems a bit more lethargic and doesn't seem to have an appetite. I'm tempted to go home today and do the partial water change and run carbon to remove the quinine. Tomorrow is day 4 of the treatment though, and I'm wondering if I should try and make it the five days. Do you think that this quinine is bothering the shark? <Not likely> And, have you any experience with the quinine and Ick? <Ah, yes> What would you think is the minimum effective treatment duration? <Two weeks> I'm in a catch 22 here. The sole reason for the quinine is to effectively whack the Ick without hurting the shark. I'd like your opinion on it. There is very little in FAQ about quinine & sharks but one or two notes. Thanks a million. Thomas Roach <Time to purchase or borrow some books Tom... Look for the name Ed Noga. RMF> Re: Ich - Frustrated, Shark Treatment 7/18/07 I have been on the 'net searching for someone that sells quinine for over an hour... sighs... Any ideas? Thanks... Thomas Roach <I would try here, http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/ . Give them a call if you can, they are very knowledgeable and friendly.>

Re: Ich - Frustrated, Shark Treatment 7/18/07 I had to share this with you guys. I don't know if you care for specific references to suppliers, but this may help someone, it certainly did me. In my search for quinine for treating the Ick in the below situation, I found this: http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/ <Yes, my experience with them has been quite positive.> Calling them, I spoke with Dr. Brian (sp) who answered the phone. He does research there, and was able to provide me with quinine sulfate. He was very informative and very interested in answering my questions. Apparently his father founded this company after being fed up with bogus medicines and treatments and their misapplication. <Need more of that in the hobby.> He told me about different treatments and why not to use each one, explaining how each worked and the results to be expected. Specifically he told me that quinine sulfate would work better than the hydrochloride and that it was an excellent treatment with sharks present. It is very effective on crypt. He even suggested an alternate treatment program as to save me some money, so he was not interested in selling me something I did not need. <Nice> If you want to post this for your readers or look at the site yourselves please do so. <Will do so.> It is nice to find, along with WetWebMedia, and informative source that is so willing to help the average hobbyist. I hope this helps another reader some other time. <I'm sure it will> Sincerely, Thomas Roach <Thanks for sharing, always good to here people getting real help, retailers going beyond the minimum to help their customers.> <Chris>

Need help finding a cure... <Crypt/Velvet?... Chloroquine...> 8/28/05 Wow.. what a wealth of knowledge you have and I am so thankful you are sharing this knowledge with us! I love your site and though there is soooo much information on your site it can make things difficult to find, but with a bit patience and lots of searching I can usually find answers to almost anything.. I do commend you (and the rest of WWM crew) for the time and effort you put into this amazing hobby. well.. I wouldn't be e-mailing you if here wasn't a problem.. so here goes.. We have a 1500 gallon system.. yes 1500 gallons, my husbands dream (I love it too : ) but I can at least blame it all on him : ). It is actually 5 tanks that line two walls of our basement all on one filtration system which is located in the garage. The tanks have been up and running about a year now and we are slowly getting them stocked and arranged. It is a slow and expensive process as you are aware. I guess with adding new items to the tanks we are always at risk. We have a separate 400 gallon tank we are using as a quarantine tank. <All water, gear... separated> For some unknown reason.. maybe adding new corals to the tank we had an outbreak of what we believed to be ich. we removed all of the fish except for the ones in the reef.. (Powder blue tang, 3 blennies and a mandarin goby). <Mmm, if there are fish/es present in part of the system, they will act as "reservoir hosts" (scientific term)...> So now in the 400 gallon QT tank we have the following: Pink Tail trigger, Nigger trigger, Naso Tang, 3 yellow tangs, Blue hippo tang, skunk clown fish, emperor angel, blue faced angel, purple tang and a golden puffer... (there was also a clown trigger, lemon peel angel and long horned cowfish, but they recently passed) Ah yes. the golden puffer.. here is where our problem lies...  Since we do have a puffer we cannot and do not want to use the conventional copper medication for fear of killing him.  We have always used Hyposalinity in the past with great success, however they have been in hypo for about a week now with no improvement. the fish we left in the reef part of the main system actually look better than the ones in the QT tank. Only thing we can come up with is marine velvet.. <Mmm, for the many dollars you have invested in this system, livestock, ongoing operational costs, I would invest in an inexpensive microscope, learn to use it... not hard, expensive...> and only medication we could come up with people actually having success with was Aquatronics Marex which contained Chloroquine <di>Phosphate. However to my findings over the past two days.. Aquatronics has gone out of business and that medication cannot be found. <Mmm, actually...> I am having great difficulties finding another med with the same ingredient or a vet to prescribe me Chloroquine Phosphate because they do not specialize in fish... Do you have any suggestions on obtaining this medication or another med that may help with external parasites that will not harm our puffer? <Careful use of chelated copper along with hyposalinity... of all fishes... would be my choice... If you are convinced that you'd like to try Chloroquine diphosphate (note spelling) this compound can be procured for human use (used to treat malaria)... expensive... from a medical doctor source> I have read so many articles on FW dips, but would Hypo not have the same effect? <Mmm, generally not... the rapid change in osmotic pressure is often of much more immediate relief, destruction to single-celled animals> If we try to FW dip can we dip multiple fish at once and change FW between "groups". How long can you leave them in there without causing too much stress or harming them more? <... this is posted on WWM> You have my utmost gratitude for any help or suggestions with this.... Thanks for your time!! Jatana <I strongly encourage you to have local folks... guru/s from a marine hobby club, expert service company personnel... come to your site, inspect your fishes, system... help devise (and soon) a workable plan for isolating, treating ALL your fishes... and carefully quarantine all future purchases. Along with the microscope, I cannot urge you enough to procure a copy of Edward J. Noga's "Fish Disease Diagnosis and Treatment". Bob Fenner>

Malachite green/quinine and ich G'day guys, <Good morning Luke, MacL here with you today.> I have found your site most informative.  <Many thanks for the nice words.>  I have a 530 litre, 5 foot by 2 foot, by 2 foot Tropical reef tank set up. In my tank I have 2 Pajama cardinal fish, 3 Green Chromis, 1 regal tang, 1 mimic tang, 1 mandarin fish, 1 scooter ( Neosynchiropus ocellatus ). I also have 1 pink Goniopora - bowling ball size, 1 green Goniopora - apple size, 2 species of Discosoma, 1 group of Zoanthus and 2 Anemones. I have a wall of live rock along the back of my set up, Serpulorbis inopertus and Haliotis varia are quite common through this wall. 18 months ago I successfully treated an outbreak of Cryptocaryon irritans on my regal tang with a 4 day treatment of Quinine hydrochloride and malachite green. All of the above species in my tank survived, though the Gonioporas went into themselves for 8 days. Everything has been fine until now.  Recently I added 1 clown wrasse, 1 18 inch snowflake eel and 1 Pentaceraster tuberculatus. I now have another out break of Cryptocaryon irritans. The regal tang has a good smearing of white spots and most of the other fish have 1 or 2 spots on them. No fish are showing physical distress YET.  I believe the white spot came into my system on the clown wrasse though at the time of purchase no physical signs were noticeable. For future use I will be setting up a hospitable / Quarantine tank. I know I will have to remove the Pentaceraster tuberculatus before using the same treatment as before, Quinine hydrochloride and malachite green, but I do not know if I should remove my snowflake eel?  <Definitely take him out of the tank while the treatment is going on.> Please your opinions would be greatly appreciated.  <Good luck, MacL> 

- Greenex Strikes Again -  Hello Crew, I have another question my tank had caught ich and the guy at my LFS told me to use Greenex so I did. Now all the LFS are telling me to throw away all my sand and recycle my tank. The Greenex worked alright, done a great job of killing ich, but it took my fishes, corals, and invertebrates too.
<Doesn't sound like a good cure to me... I would fire the fish store that gave you this advice [to use the Greenex on your tank].>
Sigh... of all means I don't want to have to recycle my tank, so I wanted to make sure about what you all think before I take action. <You must re-cycle the tank at this point, but you probably don't need to throw out your sand... run some activated carbon for about a week or two and you should be good to go.>  Thanks,  Chris  <Cheers, J -- > 

Pounding Parasites! (Another Medication?) Chloroquine for parasites? You guys have a great website for information! <Glad that you find it useful! We enjoy bringing it to you every day!> I have been battling a persistent ich infection and potential velvet to boot.  DON'T ASK. I am now a quarantine believer, but 1 fish too late.   <Well, better late than never. As long as you learned your lesson, the fish did not die in vain...> I run a protein skimmer, UV sterilizer, and a canister filter (convenient for carbon, etc. when needed) along with two other powerheads for circulation in the tank (100 g acrylic). I had previously treated quarantined fish with a round of CopperSafe for 14 days to an apparent cure and allowed my main tank to go fallow for 4 weeks.  After returning the fish for a 4 week disease-free period, I purchased 2 more fish (purple tang and Foxface) from a very reliable dealer that quarantines and dates their fish arrival (fish had been in same tank for months), therefore did not freshwater dip due to stress issues that I had previously experienced. <I have a bad feeling about this...> After a 2 week quarantine in my own tank (disease free) I added the fish to my main tank (100 gallon FOWLR with 60 lbs LR).  After another 2 weeks I suddenly had a pearl-scale butterfly stop eating and dead the next day with no other outward signs of disease.  1 week later purple tang and Foxface had signs of gill problems (gulping air and increased breathing), followed by a couple days later with external signs of ich on the purple tang.  Tank chemistry was great, temp constant. <I'm wondering if this was Amyloodinium, not ich. The "gulping" and difficulty in breathing are symptomatic of either advanced ich or Amyloodinium...> Now my 20 gallon quarantine was not big enough for the fish (and my wife not tolerant enough for more tanks)....soooo .... I remove all invertebrates and live rock to my 20 gallon (I have no plans for corals) and treated the main tank with CopperSafe. (I realize you are cringing at this point, but this was a very calculated move that was made with much thought). <I wouldn't have done it this way, but I can certainly understand your reasons for doing this...> Problem solved.. ich gone after 3 weeks of measured copper treatment.. removed all traces of copper and 2 weeks later replace the live rock, followed by invertebrates to the tank.  All is great for about a month and suddenly had ich again and a dusky appearance on the purple tang (maybe velvet).  Repeat the above with lowering Spg to 1.016 and added a cleaner goby and am using Cupramine this time instead of CopperSafe. <Grr...> Am now finished with the three week treatment using appropriate daily measurements of copper levels (as before).  All fish are eating great, look full bodied and healthy, except for lateral line with the purple tang (not surprising given the copper). <Good observation on your part! One of the potential side effects of copper with tangs...> I will remove Cupramine for the next two weeks with PolyFilter and carbon, increase the salinity, and then return the live rock, followed by the invertebrates once I see the pods living well.  On the upside the 20 gallon quarantine has great pod growth with no fish to eat them. <Good to hear that!> Other than the downside of treating my main tank can I do anything better? This is not a scenario I want to keep repeating. <Agreed...I might leave the tank fallow for a longer period of time- like 6 weeks or more. This can really disrupt the life cycle of the causative protozoa.> Given my prior persistence of parasite and the nagging fear of an ongoing velvet infection will I get any advantage from additional treatment with Chloroquine biphosphate? <I'm skeptical at this point. Could do more harm than good.> What is your opinion on using Chloroquine biphosphate?  Can it be removed from the tank with carbon after 10 days? <Carbon/Polyfilter can remove many medications effectively..> It is very difficult to find any good information on Chloroquine, since few people seemed to have used it much. Thanks for your help.  Have a great day! Nick Lukacs <Well, Nick personally have not used the stuff, either. I am more inclined to go fallow longer than I would be to "nuke" the tank with yet another medication. Tough on the fauna in the tank, as well as the fish. Short of thoroughly breaking down the tank and starting over, I'd go for the longer fallow period, myself. Good luck! Regards, Scott F.>

I dosed it with Greenex Thanks a lot.....btw, my tank came down with ich! I dosed it with Greenex, and all the fish died the next day. <Argghhh, I hate this product... not uncommon result> My tank got milky white and I did a 50% water change. The cloudiness continued for several day and is now dying down. I know I shouldn't have but I decided to add another clarkii for the anemone, so far so good. It's been 5 days and the clarkii seems OK. He took to the anemone in about 1hour! He now sleeps inside it and it closes around him like covers (really kewl). BTW all my corals lived through the medication just fish casualties. Thanks for the tip on the sponge for bubbles I know I need to be skimming, but I couldn't stand all the bubbles.  <Maybe relocate it to a sump?> I have a lot of brown algae on the back glass would it hurt to leave it growing or should I scrape it? <If it bugs you, scrape away... should turn green with time, improving conditions> Hey thanks again for caring so much about the hobby by taking your time with all these questions. Much thanks, Joe >> <Be chatting. Bob Fenner>

Greenex and UV? Hi Bob- I am currently treating my 12 gallon marine tank (fish/live rock/few inverts) with the product 'Greenex' by Aquatronics, for ich which developed on a new fish. This product had failed me once in the past, but I caught the ich within hours of first appearance this time and decided to give it another shot. Surprisingly, the ich was off the new coral beauty the very next day...and I am continuing treatment. my question: Is it safe to use my UV filter while using the 'Greenex' product?  <Yes... that is, the UV does not affect the type of copper and formalin mix which is Greenex...> I turned it off before treating in fear of a poor reaction, but would like to use it if possible. Unfortunately, the box mentions nothing regarding the issue and I have been unable to acquire any company contact info for Aquatronics. Your help is appreciated. Garin <The usual warning here re this product, apparent "disappearance" of ich... the former is rather toxic, has little safety/efficacy margin... the latter does just "cycle off" initially until developing multi-generational stages in a system... Please read through the FAQs on "Marine Ich", and the MANY associated FAQs and article files to "Marine Parasitic Disease" on our site: www.WetWebMedia.com... and be prepared to enforce other treatment... at least the environmental manipulation, vitamin prep. and cleaner ideas gone over on WWM. Bob Fenner>

Re: Greenex and UV? Thanks Bob- I have read through nearly all your FAQ's regarding Ich and the sort...very helpful! I will begin the environmental manipulation, since I lost my electric scallop to the Greenex anyways. Hopefully the Emerald and Scarlet crabs will pull through the changes. <Me too... and please do write, express your concerns re "labeling" to the fine folks at the manufacturer (Aquatronics)...> I will also try a neon goby as a cleaner, but fear the trigger will have him for lunch. <Surprisingly, they don't eat them at once... recognizing Gobiosoma as allies...?> Regarding nutrition...currently I have a 3 fish: a Picasso trigger and a valentini Toby/puffer (each about an inch long), and my new coral beauty angel. What food/brand would you recommend for the best nutrition (whether it be frozen, flake, or a combination)...whatever would be best?  <Please see the "Foods/Feeding/Nutrition" section on the Marine Index on our site: www.WetWebMedia.com> The angel doesn't seem too interested in the 'brine shrimp plus' flake or the frozen blood worms the others love. I thought I might try growing some Caulerpa algae in the tank for him, since he ate all my hair algae. <Add more live rock...> I will beat this ICH!! Thanks again, Garin <Good attitude. Bob Fenner>

Greenex use The guy at the fish store says that he uses Greenex to treat Ick in a system with live rock and sand...I thought I remembered your website said that Greenex wasn't good.. when I got home I checked and it said that it killed some fish...the bottle states that it is safe for all fish, invert... and biological systems.. What is the deal?? Cheryl <Unless the formula has changed, Greenex is not non-toxic... too dangerous, responsible for many losses... Post this msg. to the listservs for others opinions, experiences. Bob Fenner>

Question about a disease My cowfish is swimming in circles and around its own center horizontally. It happened after I treated it with "Greenex" (Malachite Green and Quinine Hydrochloride) anti-protozoan agent against a marine Ick for five days every other day. On the box of the medication, it says that it prevents exactly the same conditions as the fish acquired afterwards: scratching and darting. The fish is so disoriented that it cannot eat pieces of octopus I feed it. What should I do now? <Change water, run activated carbon in your filter flow path, lower specific gravity, toss this toxic "medication" in the trash, use the search feature (Google) on the wetwebmedia.com site and seek the commiseration of other aquarists on the chatforum: http://talk.wetwebfotos.com/ Otherwise, be patient and hopeful. Bob Fenner>

Another Greenex Burial Hi bob, I have a 38 gallon Berlin system reef tank. I recently used Greenex, malachite green and quinine HCl, to treat a tang that had white spots. The first two days of the treatment were fine, I kept the filters running without the carbon, turned off the protein skimmer, and continued use of Kalkwasser solution, and reef solution. Then on the final day of treatment, I decided to take out the filter block from one of my filters because I had notice that it had been dyed blue, and I forgot to shake the bottle of Greenex before adding it to the tank. After about two hours one of my Foxface started heavy gilling at the bottom of the tank, 10 minutes later it had gone from yellow to flush white started swimming upside down, did a vertical loop and flopped dead on the live rock. My second Foxface also succumbed despite an emergency water change, putting carbon back in the filter, and turning on the protein skimmer. My tang and clownfish were noticeably effected for 3 or 4 days but have now come back to normal, and my blenny never seemed bothered. Was all this a result of not shaking the bloody bottle of Greenex? Thanks for help  <More of just using this "medication"... the filter was removing a modicum of the malachite and formalin (the ingredients) lessening their toxifiying your fish... removing the filtrant hastened the effect. Bob Fenner, who is glad to read of your other fishes revival> sincerely Ben 

Greenex WWM Team, I was reading through your Daily Q&A and read a post where a user had his tanked wiped out the day after he added Greenex and wanted to let you guys know that this exact thing happened to me about 6 months ago. I had a couple of fish sick with ICK and cloudy eye my pet shop recommended Greenex since I had some invertebrates, well after dosing my 180 gallon tank with 180 drops of Greenex the following day EVERYTHING was dead. I don't know what they put in that stuff but it had wiped out my tank just like it wiped out his, needless to say I've learned my lesson but paid a hefty price tag for it.

Greenex I have a 50 gallon show tank with a Kole tang, Spanish wrasse, a clown, a multicolor sea urchin, 2 damsels, 2 fire gobies, and a flame angle. My clown got Ick a few days after I got him. <That is why we always recommend any and all additions get a four week quarantine period.> My friend that owns the pet store I bought it from recommended Greenex. I had had problems with my fish dying after application before but was convinced that it was my tank because it was still new (about 3 months old). <It could also have been the disease itself that killed the fish, not the treatment.> My friend convinced me of it, but I took his advice because it worked on his fish. I made sure this time to check my water before application, every thing was perfect. I applied it as recommended, 1 drop per gallon. The next day the wrasse, tang, urchin, clown, angel, and one goby was dead along with one of my sand sifting stars. <Wow!> Is it just me or is this stuff killing my fish? <I have had bad experience with this product on invertebrates, so I would believe it is possible that your urchin and starfish was effected, but too many other variables to say for certain the medication killed the fish. The speed of the deaths does lend credence to your suspicions, but it is also possible the clownfish was infected with Amyloodinium and Cryptocaryon. Amyloodinium is harder to see and may have spread unnoticed. A quarantine/hospital tank is a must. Please see www.WetWebMedia.com regarding set up and proper use.> I mean none of these fish were sick. I have had most of them for almost 6 months and no problems, no signs of being sick and all of a sudden mass die off! I checked my tank again every thing was fine. It seems every time I add this stuff to my tank all my sensitive fish (expensive fish) die! <See, I would see the problem as every time you add a unquarantined fish, it becomes sick in your tank, infects everyone, you then treat the whole tank, and you experience deaths.> Is it just me or can it be the Greenex? <It is possible, but you have other forces at work here. -Steven Pro>

Treating Marine Parasites <<JasonC here, Bob is off diving>> Mr. Fenner, sorry to bother you again, but.... The symptoms on my fish were getting worse (ich and marine velvet) so we got a skimmer, but then started using Rally and Kick Ich by Ruby Reef to try to save fish and had to turn skimmer off. I ended up losing my Gold rim tang, Heniochus, and true Percula. Obviously these meds didn't work. I know you said to get Alkalinity right and keep water quality excellent, lower salinity slowly) and raise temp. I did these as well, Water is great, salinity is at 1.019 normally it is at 1.022 0r around there. Temp is around 80-82. We ran activated carbon through tank to pull meds out and try something a little "harder". We began using Greenex yesterday. My clown died but he wasn't going to make it regardless. Now none of my fish are eating. They are all hiding. I am now running carbon, protein skimmer and UV sterilizer to pull meds out as I believe Greenex is quite toxic. <<UV won't take any medications out of the water>> What else can I should I do. <<probably not much, reflect on what has transpired. Successful Marine tank keeping requires as much work before we put fish in the tank as after. >> We are kind of thinking to try to let the fish fight it off on their own. The shrimps are cleaning them and salinity is lowered. Please help we are running out of options. Remember we can't use hosp tank and we have inverts. <<I don't recall the details - this is an important piece of gear, perhaps more important than a UV filter>> If this were your tank given what we can and cannot do, what would you do at this time? <<wait it out, try to make arrangements for a quarantine system for future residents>> We have two hippo tangs and one true Percula left, two cleaner shrimps both working hard) I thought of neon gobies, but am afraid of getting any new fish.. HELP!!!!!! <<well, the neon gobies are pretty hardy and may be a good place for you to get started again, however... you should really consider carefully how you might squeeze in a quarantine system. This one item could have saved you much of this heart-ache. Certainly a good idea to just let things run their course and see how the Greenex works out. You are quite correct about the toxicity of Greenex, and it probably should have been avoided. In any case, keep running the carbon, try to encourage your fish to feed but don't over-do it. Cheers, J -- >>

Greenex...reef-safe? one more quick question. . . what is about Greenex that makes it so harmful? <The active ingredients are Malachite Green and Quinine Hydrochloride (a fairly nasty chemical).> Why do they say on the bottle that it is "reef safe" if it has done so much harm? <It claims to be "invertebrate safe", which is a pretty big difference. Many larger inverts can tolerate the stuff, but much of the smaller life in reef tanks and many corals will be harmed.> Is there ever a situation where you would recommend using this stuff? <The best situation for the use of any medication is in your bare bottom hospital tank. -Steven Pro> <and adding that the malachite wreaks havoc with filter feeders and many Octocorals>

Rapid Gill pumping.... Anthony, First off allow me to thank you for all of the help that you have lent me over the course of the last few days. Not only was your advice good, but it was delivered expediently, and in such a manner as to not make me feel like a complete dummy. Though I have been known to do extremely dumb things, particularly with my fish tank. Many thanks. <very welcome and thank you for your patience. I fear sometimes that I am too strict of an aquarist and with my advice. Indeed, we all learn some hard lessons... just trying to minimize them <smile>> Anyway here is what I did. Before I read your last email I transported the tang to a 30 gallon tank I borrowed from a friend; <excellent... and though it might still seem small to you for a fish this size, it will serve the purpose admirably!> cleaned it out really well, and then used 30 gallons of water from the main tank to fill the QT. This was on Monday night. I also treated him with a product called Greenex. Apparently this is a combination of Malachite Green, and Quinine extract. Everyone I spoke to said that this is an excellent all purpose antibiotic. <it has a cure or kill reputation... aggressive but necessary at times> It appears to have worked. Not only has the excessive gilling ceased, but his appetite is back, and the Ick (or whatever it may have been) appears to have receded somewhat. <excellent, and so soon. But don't relax just yet. Medicated several days after last symptom wanes if mfg recommendations allow and keep in QT for a minimum of 2 weeks> Will keep him QT'd for some time yet. With fingers crossed, it appears that he is on the road to recovery. Which is good, because he has quickly become a favored fish. <yes... a magnificent fish. You made the right call> My Passer never appeared to become ill, which is also very good. I will definitely take your advice on the plastic tub QT setup. I completely overlooked such a simple solution. <too easy to do <wink>... that's why we all brainstorm and share ideas> Again thanks for everything. Michael <always welcome, and thanks for sharing a positive update! Anthony>

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