FAQs on Quinine Compounds Use in
Related Articles: Use of Biological Cleaners, Aquatic Surgery, The
Three Sets of Factors That Determine Livestock
Related FAQs: Quinine Cpd.s/Med.s 2, Quinine Science/Rationale/Use, Sources, Dosing/Treatment, Troubles/Fixing, Accounts/Success Stories & FAQs on:
Medications/Treatments 1, Medications/Treatments 2, Medications/Treatments 3, Antibiotics/Antimicrobials, Anthelminthics/Vermifuges/Dewormers,
Copper FAQs 1, Organophosphates, Epsom/Other Salts, Formalin/Formaldehyde, Furan Compounds, Garlic, Homeopathic Remedies (teas, pepper sauce,
other shams...), Malachite
Blue, Metronidazole, Sulfas, Treating
II, Treating Parasitic Disease, Using Hyposalinity to Treat Parasitic
Disease, Garlic Use,
Marine Disease 1, Puffer Disease,
Alternatively, you may have success securing CP
through a veterinary or medical doctor. Greenex: Malachite Green &
Quinine HCL (Aquatronics) Quinine
Ich; Crypt in a 750 gal. reef
Hey Bob, good morning.
So as luck would have it, my 750 has developed ich. I haven’t had to
deal with this crap for close to 8 years. My tank is loaded with coral
so treating the display isn’t an option and I have close to 40
fish and 400 pounds of LR so netting the fish out is also not an option.
I started them on DR Gs parasitic food,
raised the temp and bought 5 cleaner shrimp. I also just ordered
a new bulb for my sterilizer
<UV speeds up the decay of Chloroquine phosphate>
and should have it running in a day or 2. Even though the fish are still
eating, I've lost 4 of them. Is there anything else I can be doing to
get this under control?
<... Plan B... removing the fish livestock to where spg can be
manipulated, allowing the 750 to go fallow... Otherwise... hoping the
remaining fish livestock will develop resistance, immunity... Trouble
introducing new fish/es... NEED to be thoroughly acclimated, conditioned
to the system, including water changes from the main to Quarantine
I’m also running ozone although I realize it doesn’t do much for ich.
As always, thank you
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Re: Ich 5/3/18
Thanks Bob. The link you sent for the food is different from what I
bought. The stuff I got is actually frozen Dr Gs food. Is the liquid
form you sent better in your opinion?
<I don't know John. My guess/supposition is that the frozen format would
retain CP potency. I did meet Dr. G years back giving a presentation
(used to call pitches) at a S. Fla. hobbyist show. Seemed very nice,
honest, competent folks/family. Bob Fenner>
Re: Ich 5/3/18
Ahh. Ok. Thanks for the input. Hopefully it is as reef safe as they say
it is. I have thousands in corals at risk if it isn’t.
<Do see WWM re CP, and for what you have invested... the 2d ed. of Ed
Noga... Fish Disease, Diagnosis and Treatment. B>
Trying to save my fish; CP f' 9/10/17
I had a group of 5 fish (juvenile Queen, an adult Imperator, a Powder Blue and
Achilles tangs and a smaller Blue Jaw Trigger) in my 160 gal QT system, made up
of 3 - 55gal tanks plus sump. They have been there since Aug.
12th. They seemed to be doing good at first. They were in lower salinity water
for over two weeks ~ 17ppt, temp 78F, pH around 8. I started to slowly bring the
parameters up to match my display when I saw Ick break out on the Tangs.
<Very common; as you likely know these two Tang species are VERY susceptible>
I lowered the salinity back down to 17ppt and did 2 treatments of Chloroquine
Phosphate (from National Fish Pharmaceuticals) . After a week the trigger died.
The Ick seems to have morphed into Amyloodinium
ocellatum - cloudy eyes, shedding slime, patchy white on the Achilles...I'm not
sure if the darkening pelvic fin is on the Powder Blue is a symptom of something
<Could be sampled, looked at under a 'scope. Perhaps just chemical/physical
The tangs have stopped eating.
The two angels are still in better shape - I only see white spots on the eyes
and they are still eating well. I gave both tangs a fresh water dip yesterday
but didn't see any improvement. I pushed the salinity lower to 14ppt. I am about
to do a 25% water change and give another treatment of Chloroquine. Am I missing
<The CP may be hurting more than helping here. >
Is there something else I should be doing? Here are some pictures.
<IF these were my fishes, I'd NOT use the quinine, but just drop the spg.
down to 1.010, and hope. They may be too impugned to come back at this point>
I would appreciate any suggestions you might have Thanks,
<I would have you read re others experiences w/ CP (on WWM) as well. Can be
tricky in use:
and the other Quinine FAQs files linked above. Bob Fenner>
Prophylactic qt treatment 6/24/17
I am currently going through a reboot of my DT (velvet outbreak) and I have 2 QT
tanks set up while I leave the DT fallow. As I am treating with CP, I was
wondering if I should prophylactically treat for flukes. The fish show
no obvious signs but there is so much misinformation about fish not showing
symptoms that I am now paranoid. I have Prazi-pro and API General Cure. I read
that CP and Prazi should not be mixed due to oxygen depletion so I
was considering using the GC.
<With adequate aeration these med.s are mixable. You should be able to find
flukes in the bottom of a settled pH adjusted freshwater dip/bath... need to
look close as they're small and translucent/transparent>
Also, all new incoming fish will be QT and treated with CP and either Prazi or
GC. I know you are not a fan of prophylactic treatment,
<Au contraire; I am a huge proponent... of appropriate prophylactic procedures;
esp. at the collector/jobber-wholesaler level>
but what should I do if symptoms can be masked.
<Depends on too many factors to elucidate in email. Read over our writings on
disease/pathology, books I've penned. Some fish groups, species are to be
treated differently, depending on apparent states of health/condition...>
One incoming fish is a wartskin angler which is not a very active fish so it
would be nearly impossible to determine reclusive behavior.
<Antennariiform fishes are almost always robust (or dead due to delivery issues)
on arrival. I would expedite most all>
Re: prophylactic qt treatment 6/25/17
Would you consider 2 airstones w/ a HOB filter in a 55g and 2 airstone w/ a HOB
filter in a 20g adequate aeration for a Prazi/CP combination?
I never want to go through this again. This experience has been enough to make
me rethink this hobby.
<I understand. When, where in doubt, my practice is to stand back (time,
mentally/emotionally), review my position; judge the merits of my actions,
Chloroquine phosphate 6/9/17
Hello - I have a question about Chloroquine phosphate dosing to gain an
understanding more than anything. I have read everything I could find on CP and
in regards to dosing there are certainly many different instructions.
<You likely know more than I then>
The CP I have is from National Fish Pharmaceuticals. On their package it
indicates if you have a tank less than 80 gallons to add 1/4 tsp per 10 gallons
of water and add the same dosage every 24 hours with a 25% water
change each time.
For tanks larger than that to dose once and leave in water for 7 days.
Since this is their recommendation I'm following it but would like to better
understand how it works (I'm using in a QT tank less than 80 gallons).
My questions are these:
1. In the small tanks if you kept adding the same dose daily with only a 25%
water change wouldn't the concentration become too high over the course of 10
<Mmm; no, or at least, not likely. CP is photo-reduced and "used up" over
time... goes away in a few days time>
I can't find anything about how CP works but it must not dissipate if for larger
tanks it is a 1 and done treatment.
<I too don't know what the difference is in a larger system... other than more
(guessed) depth of water that may reduce photo-decomposition>
Any information you know about this I would appreciate hearing. I do plan on
calling NFP but also wanted opinions from someone other than who sells the
<Yes, I would... and barring other input from them, I'd treat larger systems as
smaller; per gallonage and water changing>
2. I have read in several places it is only effective if you combine with
hyposalinity. What is your opinion on this?
<About as effective w/ or w/o>
3. I have read mixed information you should have lights off and others say it
does not matter. The instructions from NFP only say to not use UV. Your
<Better to leave lights off, definitely UV>
4. Would this be effective treatment for black spot disease?
<The Turbellarian Paravortex? No>
I saw in your information that "literature says it might be efficacious" but do
you have specific experience with it working? I'm hoping to treat both Ich and
black spot with the same treatment.
<I would not be concerned re Paravortex; not virulent; more of a low-grade space
5. Does treatment with CP take care of flukes or should Praziquantel still be
<I would use Vermifuges against all "worm" issues and not anti-malarials>
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Re: Chloroquine phosphate 6/10/17
Thank you for your response. To follow up with my conversation with NFP
and for additional information on this medication for anyone else using
it, this is what they said:
1. The water changes are strictly to keep ammonia/nitrite under control.
If water parameters are fine you don't have to do a water change.
2. In a small QT with a small number of fish the dosage could be reduced down
and not done daily.
<? The dosage (units per volume) should stay the same... In fact, I would also
administer the CP via food (simultaneously)... have you searched/read on WWM Re?
You could dose the recommended amount once every 3 days and replace the correct
amount based on the % water change being done.
3. Lighting could be kept on if very low and no direct natural light. If you
don't have the ability to lower lights turn them off.
4. Hyposalinity is not a factor and isn't necessary for this treatment to be
5. Not effective for Paravortex.
I did not ask about large systems as while my DT is 300 gallons it is a reef so
I would never use this in it.
<I agree w/ this last. IF used; only via foods:
I appreciate your comment on not being concerned with Paravortex... makes me
<An olde roomie, Mike Kent, worked on this flatworm... a bunch of years back...
Led to MSc and later, college teaching in Oregon.>
Probably why I can't find that much information about how to treat it.
<See WWM, Ed Noga's tomes, Bob Goemans and Lance Ichinotsubo's book for a bit
My LFS said that it often will just go away on its own and also not to be too
concerned about it.
<I do concur. Bob Fenner>
Eel (Gymnothorax melatremus ) won't eat on CP for 3 weeks
I recently had to QT my Kole Tang, Harlequin Tusk, and dwarf golden Moray eel
(Gymnothorax melatremus) due to a velvet outbreak. I've been treating the tank
with 45mg/gal of CP. Everyone looks good. No more flashing and both fish are
eating. The tank is BB with PVC fittings.
Now to the problem, my eel hasn't eaten (that I've seen) for 3 weeks.
<Might be the CP exposure; I'd stop it now>
He ate a big chunk of mixed food the day before the transfer, because I assumed
that no one would eat until they settled in. He is VERY active. He swims all
around the tank at night. During the day he hangs out in his PVC
pipe elbow. If I try to feed him, he sometimes takes a sniff and then seems like
he's scared of it. I was wondering if it's the CP messing with his sense of
smell because of the metal taste.
<Something like this>
At what point do I worry? I was thinking about putting the carbon in the filter
and starting water changes. Is 21 days enough to kill velvet (or Ich, but I am
confident that it was velvet)?
<I'd soak favored foods in appetite stimulant; such as SeaChem Appevite... and
keep offering daily>
I've tried fresh oysters, mussels, squid, clam, etc. He seemed most interested
in a silverside before the tusk stole it. In the DT he ate every 3-4 days. When
he was swimming around the other night I tried to feed him
thinking he was hunting, but he just hid when I opened the lid.
<Morays, most eels of "good (index of) fitness, can go for long periods sans
food. Don't give up. Bob Fenner>
Re: Eel (Gymnothorax melatremus ) won't eat on CP for 3 weeks
Thanks for the quick reply. I will add carbon tonight and start partial water
changes with un-medicated water. My original plan was a 28 day CP treatment to
be safe, but do you agree that a 21 day regimen was enough?
<I myself would stop now... another week may be more deleterious than
advantageous. Bob Fenner>
Re: Eel (Gymnothorax melatremus ) won't eat on CP for 3 weeks
Greetings. I thought I would write to give you some good news.
<Ahh; always appreciated>
I know you usually only hear from people when things are wrong. I have been
seeing things recently that led me to believe that my eel was eating. This
morning, I finally saw him eat some food. I was so relieved to see that,
and now I feel much better about my quarantine and fallow period. I only hope
that the 21 days was enough to eradicate the parasite that was on the fish.
I think it was because no one is showing any signs of flashing the way that they
were before. Thanks for all the advice. You are a treasure to the hobby.
<Cheers Jas. Bob Fenner>
Cryptocaryon and Chloroquine Phosphate
Hello from Romania,
<Howdy from California Andrei>
I hope you are all well. And thank you again for your valuable help you
provide for all of us.
<Thank you and welcome>
About my current problem : because of a terrible accident with
my calcium reactor in September I have lost everything in the
tank so I took that opportunity to restart from scratch in my 350
gallons system consisting of DT, and one refugium and 4 sumps filled
with live rock in the basement .
So I dried and washed all the rock, changed the sand in the refugium,
When everything was ready, I decided to start the system in the
following way :
not having any critters at all, I placed all the system in hyposalinity
(SG at 1.008 - 1.009 ) with the plan to fully stock with fishes, and
then keep it like that for other 3 weeks and then get the SG at sea
levels and begin to stock with corals and invertebrates. I also have at
hand enough Chloroquine Phosphate to treat all the system if necessary.
( you have no idea hw hard is the find CP here) . So I begun to put
fishes in : Acanthurus Leucosternon, Acanthurus Achilles, Acanthurus
Sohal, Paracanthurus Hepatus, Zebrasoma Xanthurum, Zebrasoma Flavescens
x2 , Centropyge Bicolor, Centropyge Loriculus x2 , Centropyge
bispinosus, Odonus Niger, Pomacanthus Imperator, Pomacanthus
Xanthometopon and some wrasses, gobies etc. For a period of weeks while
I added fishes, all the Acanthurus were spotless.
Problem : I begin to lose some fishes ( achilles, one of the flavescens,
the loriculus ) apparently the ones that were not eating active enough
or were shy, or were the target of aggression. But I am not so sure
<Oh Andrei! How I wish you had added a handful of hardy Damsels
to first check the viability of your system. It may be that the issue/s
here are non-pathogenic>
The fishes that died didn't had any sigh of the disease, but the last
week I have seen some white spots on the Hepatus and some on the
Leucosternon, even though the latter eats voraciously ( just like the
Sohal or Xanthurum or Imperator). I am planning to add some more fishes
that are on the way :
Pygoplites Diacanthus, Zanclus Cornutus and Chelmon Rostratus. ( I know
they sound pretentious, but before the disaster I have kept all these
fishes for years and in good conditions ) So, what do you think I should
do : stay at this low SG, add all the fishes and stick with the plan,
considering that the spots I see are introduced with the last fishes and
when they will reach the right moment in their life cycle they will day
and the hypo works?
<Hyposalinity rarely (never) brings about permanent Cryptocaryon
Is the low SG that is causing fishes loss, or maybe the crypt that seems
to be resistant to the low SG?
<Likely low SG has something to do w/ overall stress; and this is the
root "cause" here>
And if the crypt is resistant, is there any other reason I should keep
low SG? Or use the CP, turn off the lights and
If I use the CP should I do it at this SG or wait until I get at higher
Should I use the CP now or after the other fishes arrive ( in about a
<I'd NOT add more livestock for now. I would NOT pour the CP into the
system, but administer it to the fishes via foods... as gone over in
Noga (I and II) and on WWM>
I know that these are many questions, but it was the best way to
describe my indecision, and maybe some others will benefit from the
clarification of these problems. Also, the way I planned to start this
tank, until now it seemed for me the perfect and safest way in the right
conditions, but I am not so sure anymore, maybe you help me clear this
Thank you very much again,
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Ammonia/ CP and Puffers 10/13/16
I have a situation that I'm hoping you can assist with. Tank is a 125
gal Fowlr with Dogface puffer, clown trigger, Harlequin Wrasse and Dragon Moray
<Trouble in future... first w/ the Clown Trigger... be on guard, alert for bite
30 gallon sump
Media reactor with GFO ( not running right now )
Ok so here's my situation. Trigger and wrasse can down with ich. Treated with
Ich Shield (CP%?)
Ich cleared up.
But my puffer came down with a spot on his side ( which we decided was probably
an injury from a hose syphon.
<Ah yes; VERY likely>
I was monitoring the water and doing 20 gallon water changes weekly. But just
yesterday I noticed the Moray breathing harder then normal and not in his usual
location. Water test reviled ammonia at .25
nitrite 0 and Nitrate 0
<How is NO3 rendered thus?>
Oh yeah so the puffers side wound that looked like a bacterial infection spread
to one of his eyes and until yesterday was hiding. The puffer ate last
night without any issues ( krill and squid).
<... see WWM re the nutrition of Tetraodontids. Want to avoid Vitamin B
I dosed heavy with Prime the first day I noticed the ammonia
<Won't solve the issue. You have too much life for this volume, your filtration;
use of treatments.... Need to "thin the herd" and/or add redundant
bio-filtration, circulation, aeration>
until I could do a water change that evening. All was good for a few days.
But today I have .25 again. Do you think the CP caused a die off in the live
rock hence elevating the ammonia?
<Quite likely; yes>
Or do you think what ever is effecting the puffer is causing it?
<Stress could be a factor here too>
I am going to do another water change tonight and add some beneficial bacteria.
Unfortunately I do not have a quarantine tank available to remove the puffer.
Any other thoughts?
<The above... Bob Fenner>
Thank you Brad
Re: Ammonia/ CP and Puffers 10/14/16
Thank you Bob
And yes I agree large bio load. I'm the first to admit that I have an impulse
buying issue. Originally the 6 ft tank was just going to be home for the moray.
<Too small even for just this>
But a 16" dragon looked lonely( I know he won't be arhat diazepam for long) and
the puffer was a rescue from another friends tank. Big regrets. I do enjoy the
trigger for now at 5" but am expecting a monster in the future. Have you seen
them cause major issues with morays?
<Oh yes; Some individuals are not overtly aggressive; some others will tolerate
NOTHING else living in their system>
I plan on thinning the herd to just those two individuals in the near future (
as soon as puffer is healthy and I can find a responsible owner to take them).
One more thing I had a hermit crab that disappeared shortly after the Ich Shield
dose. Maybe rotting away hidden causing ammonia spike.
And to clarify I'm using an API test kit with a reading of 0.25.
<I'd get, use a better test kit brand>
Thank you again for all of your help.
Re: Dormant Cryptocaryon?
So we had a nice email conversation last year regarding crypto and
Do you by chance have any recommendation on a source for Chloroquine
phosphate or quinine sulfate?
<Yeah; they're posted on WWM:
For the last year I have been purchasing Chloroquine from some guy in SF
through his website kmaintl.com. His stuff is a great algaecide, but it
doesn't reliably work on fish disease for shit. I was speaking with a
pharmacist and told him the pricing that I was paying, and the
pharmacists said there was no way that the Chloroquine I was using was
anywhere near pure.
So now I'm in a holding pattern using SeaChem ParaGuard and
Metronidazole to clean up the disease in my QT tanks that should have
been knocked out by 4 weeks of Chloroquine.
<Your experience (lack of cure) is quite common... See the linked files
above the citation>
Thank you in advance,
Dealing with exceptionally hardy strain of crypt?
Impt. notes re Quinines; old Amquel toxicity
I've been happily reading your site for several years now and am grateful for
all of the information. Ever since ich entered my 170g reef almost two years ago
before I learned to properly QT, I've been fighting it with just about every
method in the book, including many "reef-safe" snake oils, but also QT with
hypo, Chloroquine, and quinine...sometimes keeping the fish in
the DT while removing LR and corals, others removing fish to QT and letting the
DT go fallow.
<With you so far>
I've blamed failures on everything from not keeping medication levels high
enough, to keeping the QT and DT to close together so that aerosolized crypt
could move between the two systems.
<Interesting speculation. More likely resident/residual infestation. Most
systems have this/them>
I've also demonstrated through studies in a lab with good equipment that
Chloroquine degrades super fast leaving behind an inactive molecule in my tank
(I was monitoring by HPLC , and I believe, based on changes in CPQ
behavior over a year, that a microbe capable of detoxifying Chloroquine either
entered or evolved in my system...more about that another time, but high levels
of the degradation do appear to be toxic to Zebrasoma tangs).
<I REALLY encourage you to publish your data, explanations>
I now know that quinine is perfectly stable in my system and that the
concentration remains constant after dosing regardless of skimmer or keeping
lights on. It clearly wipes out any visible ich on my fish within 24 hours and
prevents the return until removed. Unfortunately, as you already know, it dos
nothing for the inactive cyst stage, and I find that certain tangs (particularly
Zebrasoma) begin to show signs of drug toxicity after about a week
(labored breathing, failure to eat, general listlessness) but they recover fully
withi8n a day of being moved to a system without quinine.
<I have suspected such as well>
SO....I still have ich. I just completed a 13 week fallow (no new coral or other
additions), my QT and DT are far apart, precautions were taken to heat-sterilize
anything that went from one tank to another, etc. I moved a Kole tang with no
visible signs of ich from QT to the DT.
<Note the qualifier, "no visible signs">
He had been at high quinine concentration for the previous five days and was
allowed an hour in the quinine containing water during the transfer process,
just in case there were any random cysts that had just hatched so that the new
hatchlings would have time to die from high drug exposure.
About a week later, the first small blotch appeared, looking nothing like ich.
<You should sample, check under a microscope>
Couple more blotches (as opposed to raised sugar grains) appeared here and there
until this morning when I clearly saw some raised sugary grains. So, it's back
to QT for him, and I'll have quinine in the tank to make sure that anything on
him dies before it can re-encyst and live to infect another fish.
Finally to my question: Would you let this DT go fallow for 6 months?
<As long as possible, practical... more likely, with no desired life present,
I'd bleach all and restart it>
A year? Or sacrifice your corals, cook your live rock, empty the DT, and go over
every component with a hair dryer to make sure not so much as a single drop of
water remains anywhere in the general vicinity?
<No; I would not go this far. Just as likely to (re) import Crypt w/ new fishes>
I have also considered periodically placing an ich-resistant fish in an
isolation box within the tank in case this strain requires fish hormones to
break dormancy. I realize all of this might seem extreme, but I seem to have a
real survivor here and the theory of crypt weakening after a year of successive
generations seems to either be wrong, or to not apply to this strain.
The good news is that my fish seem to be real survivors....though I did lose
many to a bad batch of Amquel plus, which I will write about separately.
<To/for browsers; DO give your polyvinylpyrrolidone solutions (commercial
dechloraminators often contain) a "good whiff" and if they smell, toss rather
than use them>
I would greatly appreciate any advice here.
<I'd have you read here:
and a few of the linked files above.... for solace, input. I'd strive to "keep
balance" in your/fishes favor here; through optimized care: environment and
nutrition; use of cleaners.... Bob Fenner>
Chloroquine/sulfathiazole or Chloroquine/Cuprazin(50%)copper, formalin,
malachite, NNS; Crypt 10/7/15
In my aquarium, that have for about 5 years now, I have a Naso for 5yrs , one
blueface for 2yrs, one Apolemichthys trimaculatus for 4years now, one Zebrasoma
flavescens (around 10 years now, came from another aquarium I had) and now a
Choerodon fasciatus from Australia.
Well, this 500liters tank is a mixed of fish, inverts and some corals.
Very good water quality, very good light, very good skimmer and for some extra
control some months ago a 55W UV (AquaMedic).
Well the problem is i have some, very few signs of crypto. The Naso have one eye
with a little cloudy white circle one one eye but very little, already for 2
weeks aprox. Only with the 250W on we can see this signs.
Yes, the Choerodon fasciatus is for sure the reason, maybe indirectly. Of
course, 4 weeks on quarantine tank before i put this fish at the DP tank, at the
first time he show some stress, after two days he went again for the qt tank and
one week later he went again in de DP tank, with more confidence.
Well, even with these measures, he wake up some ict of the thank and the
pectoral fins of this fish are now with some white areas.
So, all inverts and coral went to another tank (yes, these fishes are my top
concern and I prefer to treat the DP tank like I did some years ago and after
treatment, water changes, SeaChem resigns and after one month, the inverts and
coral can go again, with some live rock (also quarantined) to.
In another situations for sure the fish should go to another tank, be treated
and the display for at least 8 weeks without any fish. In this situation, the
Naso elegans is already with 30cm, and I prefer to maintain all the fish in the
I changed the specific gravity to around 1.012, and Chloroquine at 15mg/liter (i
have a kern 440 21N to weigh fish drugs).
After two days, no much betters signs in any. No Ammonia at the thank and all
SeaChem resigns was retired, uv off etc.
When I change water I add the proportional amount of Chloroquine.
Well because I still have no positive signs of, I am thinking of also put half
dose of Cuprazin (have copper, formalin and malachite) or at least, add
sulfathiazole with the Chloroquine.
Normally when the fish have cloudy eyes or some skin red areas like one
Zebrasoma some years ago, I use sulfathiazole, alone, at rate of 1gr /100 Liters
for 3 days. Do you know if sulfathiazole can be used at this ratio,
simultaneously with 15mg/liter of Chloroquine (Resochina)?
<It can be.... but I'd first or only try adding the CP to foods rather than the
water... at a higher dose possibly... as the real drug strength does vary quite
a bit.... and getting the drug INTO the fishes is what you want>
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Re: Chloroquine/sulfathiazole or Chloroquine/Cuprazin(50%)copper,formalin,malaquite
Thanks for your reply.
I started with Chloroquine in the food (16mg over 1gr of food).
Dissolved in water and put it in dry ocean nutrition formula pellets, Nori and
even in shrimp for the Choerodon, however, after initial days, no signs of any
result. Al least visible. The Naso elegans with one eye a little cloudy and also
with one or two white spots in one eye.
<Do you have access to a simple microscope? I'd sample (scrape) some of these
spots off and take a look. May not be Crypt; but possibly Flukes, other
The Choerodon a little worst with the front fins with some cloudy areas and the
Apolemichthys had to receive a 15min freshwater bath. But day yes day no I still
put Chloroquine in food.
I am convicted that if I put all fishes in que QT tanks soon all this symptoms
go away but, these fishes in particular are somehow difficult fishes to change
For example the blueface, some years ago, because he change from the tank,
stayed with lymphocitose at such level I really thought about euthanasia. I had
difficult only to see the fish so was the size of the nodules. Well, very quiet
tank, only for him, scraped a couple times with iodine after (betadine) and
weeks later all nodules had gone.
<Good; cleaner organisms often work as well>
Since that time and years after, never happened again beside the virus if still
there for sure. (and well this angel is now strong, the dominant fish of the
tank, but, the Naso do not have afraid of him, and neither the more than 10
years old Zebrasoma flavescens. I have in another aquarium another Flavescens
that I bought, already adult, 15 years ago. So, I do not know how many years
they live but for my experience, between 15 and 20 years for sure.
So I´m afraid of moving this fishes out of DT.
I will try Cuprazin at half dose
<Only full doses are worthwhile, and need to be measured, re-dosed at least
twice daily.... absorbed by carbonate substrate, rock... and removed by
and start skimmer at low power but with the cup (the skimmer is always at full
power during treatment but the water goes all again into the tank, just to help
to maintain a good dissolved O2) , and I will continue with Chloroquine in food
and water, SG at 1,012 and 27ºC.
I will give news (good news I hope)
At Cuprazin bottle (concentrate professional 1 liter) it says do not use in
systems containing sharks, rays, harlequin Tuskfish (Choerodon fasciatus)
<Wrasses, Labrids don't "like" copper exposure, but.... better than losing the
fish. Keep monitoring, and dosage at 0.15-0.30 maximum>
... well when this fish arrived, was in quarantine, and during that time, for at
least 6 days he was with cooper, formalin and malachite at half dose... Do you
Bob, have some testimonial regarding intolerance of fasciatus to cooper,
formalin or green malachite?
<I do; but only anecdotal: HAVE treated this wrasse with all these. ARE
sensitive; NEED to monitor and KEEP your eye on the specimens being treated.
Re: Chloroquine/sulfathiazole or Chloroquine/Cuprazin(50%)copper,formalin,malaquite
Since early 90´s I have saltwater reef fishes and corals but this is the first
time I have one Choerodon Fasciatus. From Australia with al least 20cm is
beautiful. The largest I ever saw. He is able to eat a small crab or destroy a
shrimp is seconds but, do not treat any of the others fishes even if them push
him out of their zone or even when the blueface make the move (and noise) trying
to bite a little the caudal fin of the fasciatus, he only swim a little and do
not bother responding. So I do not know if these specie is like this but at
least this fish, beside those teeth, are very gentle al least for now.
<Most are peaceful toward other fishes>
Yes, I have a CETI TOPIC with 0.1 , 10, 40 and 100/1.25 oil immersion lens but
this cloudy eye or the cloudy fins are very difficult to scrap because there is
very little to scrap. The blueface are either with a little cloudy area (1mm) in
the center of one eye.
<Scrape near the eye, but not the actual lens itself>
Sometimes I cut some piece of fins for example but in this case the amount is
Regarding copper I have very difficult to trust SeaChem or JBL tests enough. I´m
afraid the small colour variations are not reliable enough and I do not want to
<For what you have invested; I'd be looking into better assays. IF you want/like
colorimetric SEE here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/martstkitfaqs.htm
Look for Hach, Merck....>
And accepting that this may not be the right way, past years I had good results
with half doses and low SG and changing fishes between small plastic containers
or aquariums each 24 hours. But yes, I never had absolute certain in any of my
tanks that I had exterminate for good this crypto parasite.
Only when the fish are really at danger and that is very rare, I change them
almost daily with new water and new dose of cooper like the manufacturer suggest
or with stock solution of 4.0 gr distilled water with 0,25 of acid citric but, .
So in QT tanks, I usually put them in low SG, and a little of formalin, copper
and malachite in the water and perform when needed some baths, but not much.
Days after Metronidazole and if need, one week later neomycin.
I don´t know if for example Hanna Instruments already have a digital cooper test
<Can look.... have a few.... here's a suitably low-range:
But these fishes are in treatment in my DP tank... for good or bad.....
If these cloudy areas may not be crypto, but flukes or other Protozoans like you
wrote , what is the best treatment?
<.... have to know "what" you're treating....>
I will continue with Chloroquine in food and water or can I do something else?
<I might add a standard dose (one shot/time) of Metronidazole and Praziquantel
here as well. Bob Fenner>
Re: Chloroquine/sulfathiazole or Chloroquine/Cuprazin(50%)copper,formalin,malaquite
"I might add a standard dose (one shot/time) of Metronidazole and Praziquantel
here as well "Metronidazole 700mg/100liter for 3 days and Praziquantel
250mg/100g food over one week?
The tank is with Chloroquine 15mg/liter , Chloroquine food day yes day no, and
Cuprazin half dose. So, I will buy decent cooper test kit (have to see it it
reads sulfate cooper, chelated or complexed cooper from SeaChem Cupramine) but
in the meantime, I will take your advise that I really appreciate Bob whatever
the results will be, and simultaneously to Chloroquine and Cuprazin already
there, I will add Metronidazole 700mg/100liter for 3 days and Praziquantel
250mg/100g food over one week?
Correct? Partial change in water for example tomorrow, Metronidazole and after 3
days another partial water change always maintaining some Cuprazin and
<Real good. B>
Re: Chloroquine/sulfathiazole or Chloroquine/Cuprazin(50%)copper,
formalin, Malachite 10/9/15
Not good news
After one day of metro in the water the fishes are swimming slowly and doing
everything slowly, the Naso and the Choerodon are near the sand and the blueface
and the Apolemichthys also have both eyes cloudy (not much but cloudy) and in
the center of each eye, a small fluke.
<CHANGE the water out; stat!>
Praziquantel only arrive maybe Monday so I do not think that any of this drugs I
added are doing good , except for a the few signs of crypto that are all gone.
The Choerodon are literally on the sand only move if i put the hand near the
glass and the Naso swimming in the same spot one inch above the sand. The others
are all swimming in slow motion.
Maybe it´s a good idea too start running the skimmer, SeaChem resigns to remove
copper, Chloroquine etc, and try another drug like sulfathiazole maybe.
I am in the mood of put theses fishes in que other small aquariums I have only
with new water without any drug.
What you think?
<Do the massive water change NOW. B>
Re: Chloroquine/sulfathiazole or Chloroquine/Cuprazin(50%)copper, formalin,
Already scraped in the eyes, fins, body, seen on microscope here and in one
Public Aquarium 15 minutes after samples were collected, with a biologist I
known from many years, and nothing relevant was detect.
<Interesting; so I take it this situation is non-pathogenic>
Anomaly clean but this can be expected given the drugs entered. I´m now changing
a good percentage of water, and no drugs besides Praziquantel Monday.
Re: Chloroquine/sulfathiazole or Chloroquine/Cuprazin(50%)copper, formalin,
The fasciatus in the morning went to another aquarium. Now is back because the
main aquarium is suffering a 80% water change.
Many thanks Bob
<As many welcomes. B>
Re: Chloroquine/sulfathiazole or Chloroquine/Cuprazin(50%)copper, formalin,
80% change done.
Still a little of Artemia with Spirulina (TMC) from the morning food available,
a little into the tank and all except Choerodon eating... Well I really love
saltwater fishes.. Naso some hours ago, outside water , scraped and scraped,
water change and is already eating .. My lovely fishes...
<And you as well. BobF>
Re: Chloroquine/sulfathiazole or Chloroquine/Cuprazin(50%)copper,formalin,malaquite
Today, Monday, all fishes are doing well, swimming and eating like nothing has
They are better but some of them are still with a little of cloudy eyes.
Only can be seen with 250W HQI switch on.
Today will start with Praziquantel at food and if this do not work, next Monday
I will try Sulphatiazole 1,0g /100 Liters for 3 days.
<Real good. B>
Before I begin, I am continuing to attempt research before, further, application
of Mr. G's anti-parasitic fish caviar. The active ingredient is Chloroquine
phosphate but without a percentage listed, as well as vitamins, amino acids and
garlic. I am trying to treat what appears to be classic marine ich, crypt
parasite. It is limited to a few spots on the single hippo(regal) tang that was
freshwater dipped but not quarantined, kill me now.
<You're learning; don't give up now>
He is a smallish member of the tank, eats voraciously, makes use of cleaner
shrimp and aside from spattering of parasite appears healthy. The only other
fish inhabitants are two tank raised ocellaris clowns and a yellow watchman goby
with no symptoms after two weeks. There will not be any more fish added, ever,
if we can pull thru this calamity. However there are a variety of corals and
invertebrates. So this concoction purports that it is entirely "reef safe" but
it seems counter intuitive that any chemical could avoid complications.
<You are correct here; NONE are completely "safe">
The directions state to feed this slurry, as much as fish will consume in 3-5
minutes, for three weeks. I fed a few drops to gauge response and all the fish
gobbled it down. I only did this once but would like to boost the tang with the
included vitamins and such for further health and immunity concerns. If the
Chloroquine is contraindicated perhaps an immunity boosting supplement?
<Yes; a good idea; always... akin to vitamin prep.s for humans>
He eats frozen mysis and algae sheets currently. Do you have any experience with
<I do not personally. Almost always I encourage people to buy CP or other drug/s
to make their own mixtures>
Is it different than quinine(when using search indices for Chloroquine these
quinine faqs repeatedly recur)?
<There are a few different quinine compounds used, of use; only one Chloroquine
Are there foreseeable dangers if any of the product were to get by the fish(or
<Minimal; acceptable dangers>
The lfs would quarantine the fish in hyposalinity but the stress on the
surgeonfish might be it's undoing and as far as I have read the parasite now
exists in my tank. As usual yours is the opinion I most highly regard, and this
is yet another instance where a quarantine tank would have averted disaster.
<You seem to understand the situation. Don't catastrophize.... won't help. Focus
on your positive actions, probable outcomes. Bob Fenner>
Ich/Puffers and Hypo
Hey crew, thanks for doing what you do!
<A pleasure, honor and life-fulfilling to share>
Question, I see that you don't recommend hypo treatment for Cryptocaryon
(SW "Ich"). In the case of Holocanthus puffers, copper treatment is suggested to
be potentially very harmful.
I'm just doing the freshwater dip now and heading to the quarantine tank.
Was set to hypo, but if you don't recommend hypo, what would you
recommend for Holocanthus that you would consider a safe, effective treatment?
<Chloroquine phosphate is best currently. Use the search tool on any page on
I did do a search using some terms but didn't come up with something (probably
just didn't do it right!)
Thanks very much,
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Re: re: Ich/Puffers and Hypo
Bob as a ps- I know in my last note I went from the no hypo/copper to
some level, but just trying to find something prophylactic till I get my
hands on the right stuff.... Thanks so much again
<Figured, but thank you for this clarification. BobF>
Re: Ich/Puffers and Hypo
Bob, thanks so so much for your super fast reply! I've read your
articles and books for what seems to be a very long time! (I was a U of
Miami grad in the 90s from the Marine Science school, went a different
direction but never left the love of it!) I've read up before on
Chloroquine, hear super things about it. Your support of it is even
referenced in a Pufferforum
post. I even was able to get some Dr G's which i soaked shrimp in and
feed the puffer with it while I got the QT set. Of course, Dr. G's only
provides an internal medication, and does not treat the external
parasite in the tank. That would require dosing.
<?... the quinine does treat for external Protozoans>
The problem I've had is that I can't seem to find anyone that carries
<... See here:
Most of the LFS's have never even heard of it. And the one that sold me
the Dr G's, who swears that Chloroquine does wonders, doesn't carry it
because he's just start up and dealing with start up costs. I can't
quite understand why if it's as effective as I've read, it isn't fully
<Meh... newer tech; the regulations... expense of start ups; lack of
I'm going to see if I can find it somewhere, I haven't had much success
on the web either. Any thoughts on where to find a product?
The LFS guy is trying to order some for me from a place in Gainesville,
FL (we're in West Palm Beach) if he can. But he says it will be until
Thursday before he could get any in. (he did say the market for this
should open up, in his opinion it's been limited to commercial
In the meantime I was going to try one of two options to get things
going for the puffer. I dipped him in fresh water last night on the way
to the QT for 10 min.s. 'Most' of the Crypto came off. He's swimming
happily in the QT and begging for food. (note, all the other scaled fish
will be placed in a separate QT and copper dosed, and the DT left fallow
for 6 weeks). I am considering starting either a hypo treatment combined
with a daily formalin dip and daily 50% bottom vacuumed water changes;
or a half dose Cupramine regime, which I've read can be effective
against crypto and if slowly dosed up correctly is safe for puffers (of
course, keeping a close eye on levels and behavior to make sure). Any
thoughts on these as
prophylactic while waiting for a Chloroquine supply?
Re: Ich/Puffers and Hypo
Got it! Fish Pharm CP. Not cheap but worth it! Will keep extra on hand
(and thus also support the market growth!) Do you have dosing
instructions on WWM?
If so I can do a search, or I can contact fishPharm. Will also look at
that NLS Ich Shield Powder, seems to contain chloroquinine as a dip. Re
your question of why I mentioned Dr G's for internal, what I meant to
say (I probably could have said better) is as I understand it, the
product works on the fish itself (internally and externally), but not on
the tank water in the QT where the crypto will still remain unless I
somehow treat that as well?
<Don't understand this statement... but quinines are not effective on
free-swimming and off-host intermediates as far as I'm aware. B>
Thanks again for all you do Bob
Re: Ich/Puffers and Hypo
Hoping to help spread the word, here's another supplier I found, no word
50-63-5 | Chloroquine diphosphate salt, 98% |
salt | J64459 | Alfa Aesar| Alfa Aesar
| 50-63-5 | Chloroquine diphosphate salt, 98% | N4-(7-Chlo...Hazard
| View on www.alfa.com
Re: Ich/Puffers and Hypo
As I understand it, I can treat the fish with CP foods, but even with
treatment if the off host intermediates are still in the water, unless I
eradicate the off host forms as well, they'll just keep attacking the
If quinines don't treat off host intermediates, won't the problem just
continue as a cycle until I find some way to treat those as well? Scott
<A few approaches can work here: Moving hosts to non-infested systems
serially... in actual practice, IF one is dealing w/ a single (not
multiple, over-lapping) generations of Protozoans, eradicating those on
the host fishes generally effects a system cure. Reducing the numbers
and viability of parasites off-host can be done in numerous ways... B>
Re: Ich/Puffers and Hypo
Now that is great! Looking forward to the employment of the method!
again for all. Scott G.
<Ah, welcome. BobF>
Two questions. NLS Quinine product; Cephalopholis stkg., sel.
I have read you are a fan of quinine based Meds for ich as opposed to
What do you think of the new life spectrum product "ich shield powder"?
It is supposedly Chloroquine phosphate.
<Don't have any personal experience with this product, but know the
owner of the company (Pablo Tepoot) to be an honest, competent person>
Also, I asked my lfs to bring in a bigger miniatus grouper a few weeks
ago, and he brought in that's 6 to 7 inches.
Does that side grouper translate better than a smaller one?
<Mmm; no... a three-four inch specimen is ideal... Unless you have
large/r tankmates already>
Also, does it really make a difference with them if they are indo
pacific, vs. Sri Lanka or Fiji? Not concerned color wise, simply health
<Just not P.I. or Indo... all where else are superior. Bob Fenner>
Re: Two questions 2/11/15
Thanks bob. Is that quinine sulfate or Chloroquine phosphate you prefer?
<See WWM re>
I see it is not easy to get a hold of, wonder if the fish pHarm. crypto
pro is any good?
I will ask lfs if he knows locale of grouper. It came from quality
marine, so he may not even know.
I can almost definitively say source is huge. My gray and blue angel
from a month ago are doing well, as they were from Florida, caught and
shipped. A year ago from California, dead in a week.
Re: Two questions... more groping re CP 2/12/15
Ok, I see you are more a fan of Chloroquine phosphate.
Now the tricky question, without a vet script, do you know of any place in US
that it can be obtained?
<.... this too is posted, archived in a separate page "Sources...."
Re: Two questions
I looked thru "links" section, but I am guessing it is not found there.
<... the search tool on every page...>
I will keep searching with bar, but if you can't point me in the right direction
I would appreciate it.
Re: Two questions
Ok I found it. It lists national fish pharm as one. Would you use. In my shoes,
the crypto pro, or just the plane Chloroquine phosphate they sell?
The guy I spoke with there said they were pretty similar.
<.... read on>
Re: Two questions
Hey there Bob.,
So I came to the conclusion that the guy was incorrect, and crypto pro is
quinine sulphate, and the Chloroquine phos is just that.
I see the latter is easier on fish, would you consider this source (nfp) a
quality place, or would you pay a vet to write a rx?
<Don't know; have confidence; but appears to be a real source. The compound,
purity should be identical>
Also my fowlr ( display which I will e treating) is currently 1.023 sg.
Would you suggest doing a water change bringing sg lower, say 1.018 or 1.019
before I start using the drug? ( not me personally, but in my tank)
Re: Two questions... CP
Truly scary he does not know the difference .
I imagine for my tank, 25 grams would suffice, if I plan on two doses
(20 mg per gallon x 160 total gallons = 12,800 msg, or 12.8 grams, times
2 doses 25 and change, well maybe should go for bigger size.
I won't bring salinity that low, but being instant ocean just went up
ten dollars per 200 gal box, maybe lowering it to 1.020 and keeping it
there entirely will be easier on fish breathing, and my pocket book.
Thanks my friend,
And in your experience, are any fish families opposed to Chloroquine
<Some do seem more sensitive than others.... But, I don't have
sufficient confidence to state which... as the scant data I'm familiar
with have other variables... too much variability to single out
Currently have snowflake, guinea fowl puffer that I know don't like
<Ah yes; BobF>
Re: Two questions... now SpG... use the SITE!
Thanks bob. Last question for the day, would bring it from 1.023 to
1.020 sg hurt anything? Looking long term at water changes and cost of
rising salt prices.
<See WWM re spg... some animals do not like anything other than NSW
Thanks, and have a good evening
Ich and CP Tx
Hi, Thanks for having such an informative site, and happy new year!
<And you J>
I have been reading the past few weeks on trying to cure ich. My fish have been
free of it for a while and I recently upgraded and foolishly threw in a couple
tangs without QT (never again, trust me: I've had heaters blow and kill fish in
the meantime with transferring, been electrocuted many times, spent more money
than I should with salt, water, etc).
<Dang! Trial by fire!>
Anyway I am currently dosing an approx. ~38.5 gallon total volume
hospital tank with a yellow, purple, sohal, and Naso tang, 3 Anthias, small 6
line, blenny, and two clowns (they normally live in a 6' tank).
<Mmm; I would have tried treating these in place (in the main tank)...
Too much stress from crowding; esp. all these surgeonfishes together in such a
Anyway, the sohal and purple tang showed up with spots when I introduced them
into the tank, so I pulled all fish out on Xmas day. They recently began Tx on
Saturday 1/3/15, at an initial dosage of 5/8 tsp. An additional 1/8 tsp was
added on 1/4, but then I noticed some of the fish (namely the sohal and the
purple tang) not eating like before. The sohal would devastate any Nori when in
the tank, and now just grazes by it.
<Yes... the aforementioned stress from crowding>
The yellow and purple tang are definitely showing spots of ich now, and the
sohal and yellow tang scratch their bodies on the PVC piping. Naso tang just
cruises along and eats like normal, male Tierra Anthias seems uninterested in
food at the moment as well.
I have been trying to find an answer to no avail, but I did a 10% water change
to reduce the concentration of the CP to approx 5/8 tsp, when I noticed them
last eating like normal in hopes of getting them back to eating. So I am writing
you to ask if 1) does CP cause a suppression in appetite after a day or two of
<Yes it does, can.... along w/ all being jammed together>
and also, can and does ich appear even when Tx the water with CP?
<Well; the "spots" may not be Cryptocaryon if this is what you're asking.
Only can be accurately ascertained via sampling and microscopic examination>
Is CP only effective in the free swimming state of ich?
<Yes; as far as I'm aware>
Thanks for any insight, and I look forward to your response.
Re: Ich and CP Tx
Thanks Bob! I know the HT is a bit small,
<Way too small psychologically... Acanthurids do NOT like... am working on a
title of the family presently>
fortunately for me (?) the tangs are on the smaller side, 2-3" max. The yellow
tang is the most established, 2.5 years old and Max size of 3.5".
There are definitely bumps coming from the sides of its body that weren't there
I chose to pull them out because I was going to do hypo on them, but I realized
it may be difficult to do so. So I bought some CP instead. They have been in the
40 gal breeder for about 1.5 weeks, eating normally and (still) swimming fine.
I must add, I do have coral and inverts on my DT, thus i didn't think of
treating the main tank.
<Life... is a series of compromises...>
I must ask you, do you think if I keep my water good and run the CP for at least
7 more days, they may be okay?
I really want to run the CP for about 3 weeks IF I could, and from all I've been
reading the CP would be contraindicated in a reef tank.
<Usually; yes... does/will kill off a BUNCH of life, cause complications that
may well not be easily countered>
Again, I appreciate your insight and thoughts and you're far more of an expert
Thanks again, Bob!!!
<Certainly welcome John. BobF>
<If it were mine, I'd return all these fishes to the large system, GIVEN the
caveats presented on WWM for use, and try the CP there; at 15 mg/l. Bob Fenner>
Re: Ich and CP Tx 1/9/15
I just wanted to give you a quick update: I was able to move five small
fish into a 10 gallon tank (2 clowns, 3 Anthias) and all that remains in
the 40 are the tangs, a small wrasse and a blenny.
<Hope they're all getting along>
The CP is definitely showing signs in the tank where the white film is
all over the inside glass. Fish do have white stringy feces, and some
still aren't eating right.
<Yes; these are effects of the CP>
I had the water tested with an API ammonia kit and it is showing 8.0 ppm
within a few minutes,
performed some serious water changes and then tested using the Red Sea
ammonia kit and only find 0.8 on their colorimetric chart. Odd, right?
<... not really. API test kits are junk; neither accurate nor precise.
See WWM re getting better assay gear>
Ammonia alert badge is showing alert levels only. Could the API test be
giving me bum results?
<Assuredly; yes. Your fishes would all be dead...>
No signs of heavy breathing, fish don't show signs of ammonia toxicity.
Anyway, the spots on the yellow and purple tang have fallen off, and i
hope they don't show for the duration of the treatment! None of the
tangs seem to want to scratch anymore.
This is one costly non-QT mistake that I'll never make again. It's a
little disheartening to know the fish didn't have to go through this if
the other fish were QT'ed, and I hope I don't make them pay the ultimate
price for MY mistake.
<Me too... these sorts of frustrations, losses... the lack of readily
available, useful information (hence WWM) ARE the principal reasons the
hobby "runs through" about 100% of "customer base" every year. Please
Thanks for e-listening!!!
<Glad to share. Bob Fenner>
Re: Ich and CP Tx
Happy Friday, Bob!
<And you John>
Surprisingly tangs have been getting along fine. :) They really don't paying to
each other, and every once in a while they'll bicker, but nothing to the point
of a death match!
<Ah, good; like many Cichlids, when crowded Tangs may get along for a while>
At one point, the sohal would "shake" or spaz as he/she swam and would rub the
gill area on a pvc pipe, and then stop where the water returns from the HOB
filter. But no fast gilling/breathing. It did that for most of the day, today it
seemed a lot more calm and swam normally. No other tang was exhibiting this.
The only fish I am wary of is the 6 line in the same tank, it hovers in one spot
in the tank, but will pick at Masago when it's dropped in the tank (i drop very
little food into the hospital tanks with the ongoing "ammonia problem" I have;
Red Sea test tests 2.0 ppm, and I have been using Prime and two bottles of
BioSpira so far. A third bottle on the way)
The purple tang seems to have regained some appetite, and the sohal is the only
one in THAT tank not eating.
<Not a problem really>
In the other tank I noticed the Anthias swimming 90 degrees vertically, face up.
I thought they were goners but as soon as lights are out, they swim to the
bottom and take refuge by the pipes. What gives? When i approach the tank, they
are alert and dart to hide and go horizontal. Any ideas, Bob?
<Stress, the medication>
Thanks for being available for the aquatic community!!!
I trust you'll have a great weekend!
<Ah yes; thank you. BobF>
Re: Ich and CP Tx 1/11/15
Bob!!!! Great news, for me at least, :)
Looks like most fish, especially my favorite sohal, has regained their
appetites! Sohal used to only eat Nori, and is back at devouring it again.
So my observations with CP Tx:
1) appetite suppression (hopefully gone by now)
2) slowness, sluggishness in behavior, I wouldn't call it lethargic though.
Almost like "fish high"
3) ich appeared during treatment, but most likely ich completing the life cycle
during Tx in the fish.
4) accumulation of white film on glass, and a weird smell coming from the tanks.
5) "ammonia spikes"- not sure what to make of this.
<All known effects>
Anyway, I'll update you in hopes that maybe you'll be able to share my
experience on WWM so others can learn too.
<Thank you for sharing>
Re: Ich and CP Tx
A quick update: I had to ditch CP as a few days ago (7-8 days) ich exploded on
my sohal during tx. Thus I concluded the CP I bought, from a seller who
gets his supply from Fishman Chemicals, wasn't potent or pure enough.
At least the BioSpira saved the fish from ammonia poisoning while in the HT.
At this time, I am performing tank transfer for my remaining fish. The Anthias
(who don't eat by the way... ANYTHING) and clowns are in a separate tank still
and have never displayed any signs or symptoms of ich. Odd.
The remaining tangs (yellow died during first couple of days into TTM, as did a
wrasse) and Midas are doing well in TTM, eating normally, and not flashing. The
sohal was the worst and he seems spot free at the moment and has not flashed.
I transferred them out the next morning after the sohal had the worst display of
ich. Sure as day, the afternoon after the ich exploded on him, the lesions
disappeared and he looked normal. Luckily and hopefully they all remained back!
Anyway, now I am tasked with getting some pure ammonia in this newly set up QT (
new water, all equipment soaked in fresh water and vinegar for a day and dried
for several days) and adding some BioSpira later.
I must admit I've never had to set up an emergency, un-cycled QT before, and I
must get the fish in the QT by mid next week.
Any suggestions besides using anything from the DT which has been fallow since
<All posted on WWM; best to look there first>
Thanks for any insight, Bob! :)
<Cheers and thanks for the report. Bob Fenner>
Marine Velvet / Ich and Chloroquine/Hypo Treatment
Dear WMM Crew,
I wanted to share an experience and get your guidance, in hopes that
this might help out others as well as myself.
For the last 9 months or so I've been trying to get my 370
angel/butterfly tank off the ground, but I've been battling some issues
with what appears to be Ich and Marine Velvet (I purchased a microscope,
and though it is a bit difficult to tell for certain, it appears to
resemble the slides I've seen on your site and in books.) I had followed
proper QT procedures both for the initial introduction, and also for
subsequent fallow periods (I have about 250 gallons of QT in 5 separate
tanks, 2 times I've removed all fish from DT and put them in QT with
Copper for 8-10 weeks, and once with Chloroquine for the same period),
but despite this I've still run into issues a week or two upon
reintroducing some of the fish into the DT.
<Happens... you may well have entrenched protozoan issues in your
main/display... that are "surfacing" in/on new introductions>
So I got my hands on some Quinine and also Chloroquine from National
Fish Pharmacy and Fishman Chemical respectively, as I seemed to
have a strain of Ich/MV that was copper resistant
<This is also been conjectured for a few years; make that decades>
(I tried both Cupramine and CopperSafe separately, used multiple test
kits to ensure proper dosage &c.) The copper seemed to hide the
symptoms, but once I would remove it after say 30 days, the symptoms
would return-and since I have angel's and butterflies, I didn't want to
continue using copper.
I've established that I CAN rid the Ich/MV from my QT by using
Chloroquine, as the fish don't show any signs of symptoms after the
treatment in the QT (I have several QT's, and when I would remove the
medicine with Polyfilter or Carbon, I wouldn't see new symptoms even
after 3 weeks of no meds, something that I always saw with Copper within
about 5 days). But even after letting my DT go fallow for up to 10
weeks, I don't think that the parasites were completely eliminated as
symptoms would return to the fish about a week or two after
re-introduction (I would only put a few back in, not all of the fish),
and would quickly spread to epidemic proportions even with 120W of UV
which has new bulbs, and appropriate flow per Emperor Aquatics.
So now onto the question(s).
I've removed all inverts / corals from my DT, which is primarily a FOWLR
tank. Even when dosing Chloroquine in the DT, it seems that I still have
not eliminated the pests entirely. The difference is perhaps that I do
have Live Rock and Sand in there. I've been reading on some various
forums, and also in Ed Noga's book, and he recommends using
Chloroquine + Hypo (at about 12-13 ppt) for 30 days to really pack a 1-2
punch on any issues with Ich/Velvet. I've personally never done
Hypo before, and I wanted to get your opinion on if you would recommend
this approach-or something else? I am fully confident that I can carry
out the protocol properly, and have a refractometer, and also water test
kits to ensure the I do have a few red sea/generally sensitive fish, but
they haven't minded the treatments so far and their adults so they seem
to be pretty hardy. Just wasn't sure if doing Hypo would be
dangerous with them?
<Not as much as the parasitic infestation... in other words: no>
While I can certainly catch all of the fish out and move them to QT's,
I'm worried that at this point that might be more traumatic then
treating them in the DT, especially since they have so much more room
within that tank than in the QT's, and also the DT is well established
with a biofilter, so there is 0 ammonia / nitrite, and I keep nitrates <
10 with water changes, which is harder to keep on top of with 5 QT's
that will be more heavily stocked if I remove all the fish from the DT.
My preference at this point would be to treat the fish in the DT
(basically as a large scale QT), and wait to reintroduce any inverts for
at least 6 months or so. But if you feel that this is the wrong
approach, I can certainly pull all the fish out again, I've just not
been able to rid it in the past, but perhaps I wasn't waiting long
As a side note to your readers, I used both Quinine and Chloroquine. I
noticed that the Quinine appeared to be much harsher on the fish than
<Yes; generally so>
When I would dose Quinine, the fish would turn dark, some would breath
heavily, and most would lose appetite for a few days, even had a couple
of fatalities with smaller fish. I never noticed any such symptoms with
Chloroquine, and they seem to be equally effective in my QT's. Also
note, snails seem to handle this treatment (even long term) just fine
(when I've treated in my DT). I have several different kinds, and
haven't noticed any fatalities. I did test with shrimp starfish
and snails, and they do not handle this treatment and will quickly
perish. Same goes with Coral, for the treatment, my suggestion is to
remove all coral and non-crab inverts and put them in an unmedicated
tank if treating your DT.
<Yes; for sure>
No urgency for the response on this holiday weekend, just trying to plan
my next steps. I have Chloroquine in the DT right now, and it seems to
be keeping the parasites at bay, but not 100% eliminating them. I spoke
to Fishman, and they recommended rather than just doing a single dose
every 7-10 days, to do daily doses at ¼ strength after the initial dose
to ensure that the medication does not fall below the efficacious
I'm 3 days into that approach, and was thinking if this doesn't work
then I need to try another approach.
Best Regards and Thanks much as always!
<Again; thank you for sharing. Bob Fenner>
Re: Marine Velvet / Ich and Chloroquine/Hypo Treatment
Thanks so much Bob for the lightning fast response!
I just wanted to make one edit to my previous post. I accidentally said
that snails tolerated the Quinine/Chloroquine treatments, but this was
exactly what I meant not to say. The previous post said ". Also note,
snails seem to handle this treatment (even long term) just fine (when
I've treated in my DT)". However this should have read: ". Also note,
<<Crabs>> seem to handle this treatment (even long term) just fine (when
I've treated in my DT). " Just want to make sure that anyone reading
this understands that Crabs and Not snails tolerate the treatment.
Snails, Bristleworms, Starfish, Shrimp, and Corals will perish.
I will keep you and everyone posted with my progress (or lack thereof)
with the treatment/outcome.
<Thank you for this clarification>
<And you, BobF>
Re: Marine Velvet / Ich and Chloroquine/Hypo Treatment
Hi Bob and Team,
<Hey there Brad>
Just a follow up. It's been 1.5 weeks since my last email when I
initiated hyposalinity treatment + Chloroquine. To date I
haven't seen much of any improvement (no fatalities but no improvement),
and I'm wondering if perhaps at this stage I've eliminated the
Ich/marine velvet and perhaps have flukes (since I've
been treating with Chloroquine for about 2 months now, and don't
see the trademark ick spots, nor the velvety coating/rapid breathing,
just some scattered white spots, some fin fraying, and a few spots in
<It is indeed possible. Trematodes are almost always present on marine
fishes in the wild...>
interesting that it isn't on all fish, just a few. Some fish show no
signs at all. I'm beginning to think maybe I still have some form of
flukes/monogeans. It definitely doesn't appear to be anything bacterial
<... do you have access to a simple microscope? Sampling and looking is
From what I can see researching online, I'm not sure that either
hyposalinity or Chloroquine would treat flukes (just some anecdotal
evidence on forums, but nothing concrete.)
<Mmm; they will not. Straight pH adjusted freshwater WITH formalin will
eliminate external (body and gill) flukes... Otherwise, the use of
Anthelminthics like Prazi/pro is advised>
I don't want to rush into anything but wanted to seek your guidance on
treatment. Should I continue to treat with Hyposalinity/Chloroquine?
<I would not. You've already gone long enough with this M.O.>
Maybe I should pull the Chloroquine with water changes/poly filters, but
hold the hyposalinity? The other option I was thinking was to pull the
Chloroquine and treat with Praziquantel at hyposalinity levels.
<I'd be reading... THEN doing dips while moving the fish livestock, THEN
treating them with Prazi>
I've used Prazi prophylactically in the past for my reef tank fish with
Copper. Not sure if it would be ok to treat with it + hyposalinity.
Seems like an easier treatment on the fish. I could also punt and
continue the current path, but usually in my experience you notice a
change in symptoms when you are affecting a cure within a few days, and
the multiple weeks of treatment is to ensure you eradicate everything +
give your DT time to kill off the parasites.
Any guidance would be greatly appreciated!
<... wish we could do "the Vulcan mind-meld... am about as olde as
Spock!)... reading re Trematodes, 'scope use, the compounds mentioned...
Re: Marine Velvet / Ich and Chloroquine/Hypo
I do have a microscope, and just got oil for 40x+ resolution, and also a
USB adapter so I can take pictures and share. I agree with not doing
trial by elimination treatments, and not opposed to pulling all of the
fish again for treatment. Just wanted to avoid that if possible as to
not stress the fish out more if there was a simpler coarse.
<Course; and better to sample, know what is on your fishes>
Will ponder this a bit more and dig around WMM some more along with
pulling out Ed Noga's book for more research after I catch a candidate
fish and collect the samples. Just wanted to follow up in case if there
was something else obvious that I was missing.
All the best,
<Not that I know of. Cheers, B>
another concern regarding CP Ich treatment
Dear WWM Crew,
Hello, I am in need of your advise again. We previously corresponded
regarding CP Ich treatment, and a Longnose
butterfly fish. I am using the CP treatment method described in a lovely
book by Bob Goemans.
I have a 6 inch queen angel, flame hawk, two clown fish, YWG,
yellow tailed damsel, and Kole tang all in a 30 gallon treatment tank.
It is the largest tank I have for treatment. They were placed
in there for treatment of recent outbreak of Ich after the butterfly
fish was added. I do quarantine, but the tanks
inhabitants have been thru crypto before, all survived without treatment
years ago. They are all now going thru treatment
so that I can be rid of this. I have planned to leave the 180
gallon DT tank fallow for 8 weeks. The problem is the angel now looks
spotty again, but a little different. The spots are large and
even extend past her body when you look down her body and they look
more like large grain salt.
<... how large is this Angel? If several inches, I'd do a pH
adjusted freshwater (plus maybe formalin) dip... and return it to the
larger system... The spots may well be "stress" from consequences of
being crowded in the thirty>
I did a repeat dose on the tank once and they have been in CP
one month now.
<... one treatment is about all the good one can do... Re-read on WWM re
the use of CP>
Ammonia 0, 1.024, pH 8.0 temp has been 80, but today was 84 - not sure
why, except the house is a tad warmer.
Thank you for your help. I am so appreciative. Victoria
<Read. Bob Fenner>
Quinine Sulfate for Healthy QT
Hi Bob and crew!
My display tank was fallow for two months while its current residents
were QT'd for Ich (all 6+ months ago). At the time, no
Crypto-Pro was available, and my two Centropyges died within
days of adding Cupramine.
<Copper can be very hard on Pomacanthids...>
After being fallow for so long, and with all the reintroduced
inhabitants having been treated with the copper, I think it's
likely the crypt has been eradicated from the display tank.
My display tank includes a tang (A. leucosternon), and I don't want
to risk introducing Ich. So even though my QT'd Genicanthus
melanospilos has been healthy for a month, I want to dose her for
Ich. In my experience, angels can live with crypt (so she might
have it even without symptoms), but it would probably become an
outbreak if the tang's exposed.
Fortunately, I was able to get some Crypto-Pro this time, so I
don't have to use copper on another angel. I pulled the
carbon and dosed the tank according to the instructions (except for the
part about surgical gloves and a mask -- please pray for me).
FWIW, the instructions should tell you to introduce this stuff mixed
well in water. It clumps more than I expected.
Anyway, I'm concerned about some of this dosing. The
instructions say to use the recommended dose (1/8tsp per 10gals)
"every 24-hours for ten days, with a 25% water change before each
treatment." Do you interpret this as daily 25%
<Mmm, IF there's appreciable ammonia, nitrite; yes>
Also, won't the medicine accumulate in the water at this rate?
<It breaks down rather rapidly... esp. w/ exposure to
Finally, if you were me, how would you proceed? Would you go the
whole ten days?
<IF this is what the maker suggests, yes; though do search
through WWM re>
At this point, I'm very satisfied with the health of the
except for the possibility she's carrying unseen Ich. How do
you evaluate the assorted risks here?
<Skin/mucus smears and microscopic examination principally>
Thanks in advance,
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Stocking list , opinions please? Now: QS failed Crypt treatment
Hello again Crew,
Bad news, we broke out the champagne too early: the tang suddenly broke
out in Ich (visible) again two weeks after I sent you this message
(still in QT). I tried a repeat treatment of the Quinine same as last
time but at day 5 of this dose she is still covered and
I have a nasty suspicion that the quinine has actually not worked at
all, and all I have observed in reality is the Theronts leaving the
fish to infest the substrate. Because there were no tomites in the
water already, being a freshly setup QT tank, there would have been
nothing to re-infect her for a week or so until the new tomonts hatched
and re-infected her.. I think this may be what has happened.
<Does appear so>
Now at day 5 of the second quinine treatment I'm seeing no change
like last time , re-enforcing my theory. I'm really bummed.
<Time to switch to another treatment mode... CP or chelated copper,
the last perhaps along w/ reduced SPG>
I've put a UV steriliser on today (36W) to fry the tank a bit
before I do a water change and hit with a third 5 day 30mg/L dose of
quinine (without UV of course). I've also begun slowly dropping the
salinity in case I need to go down that path instead. Just a couple of
questions if I may?
Do you think I should:
a. Do a 25% water change, hit with third quinine dose, Lower the
salinity to 1.015 (as per CMA) over the next few days?
b. Do a 25% water change and lower the salinity to 1.015 over the next
few days - forget the quinine?
<Am more inclined toward (b) so far...>
c. Do a 25% water change and hit with a dose of quinine again - leave
d. Start drawing on some more of my chemical arsenal and try copper and
<The Copper (chelated product) and lowered SPG are my choice>
Appreciate your help
<And you your patience, sharing. Cheers, BobF>
Re: Stocking list , opinions please? QS failure, Crypt
Appreciate your advice/time,
I thought it was generally advised against to use copper with
hyposalinity due to copper being more toxic at lower SPG?
<To extents yes>
I've started lowering the SPG further anyway, but many (e.g. Steven
Pro et al) seem to think that 1.012 is a more appropriate level than
1.015, some even advocate as low as 1.008?.
<Yes; my lower limit is 1.010>
I'm currently shooting for the 1.012 as a compromise as I only have
the glass bulb hydrometer so accuracy is not pin point
Do you think it would be dangerous to dose quinine or
Metronidazole/Praziquantel at the same time as the low SPG?
<I do not; unless the fishes are badly compromised...>
Really nervous of copper use , my Cu test kit sucks as far as I'm
concerned with the colour gradients being all shades of vague copper
colours I can barely discern and huge differences between them. I
managed to kill the last fish I tried to cure with copper, but this was
combined with a temperature spike to 29 degrees C on a particular hot
day, so not sure which killed it, Cu, heat , the Ich or most probably
the stress of all three at once.
<I don't know either. Copper is dangerous, no doubt... and
maintaining useful concentrations in marine settings is difficult...
Less than 0.15-0.20 is of no use; more than 0.35 often deadly>
At the moment I'm leaning towards hitting it with another dose of
<Do please read here... re warning signs, incidents w/ QS, my
urgings to use CP instead: http://wetwebmedia.com/QuinTrbFixF.htm
and the linked files above>
Hyposalinity and trying to feed Nori and Mysids soaked with Jungle
Internal Parasite Guard (Metronidazole, Praziquantel and salt) and
Seachem reef fuel. This Jungle product is directed to add to the water
, but I have read that these are only effective if ingested and I have
no idea how to dose this stuff for feeding as it is compounded for
adding directly to the water
Do you have any knowledge of this product and how I might dose it
<Not enough, no; thankfully marine organisms "drink" their
environment (more than fresh)>
(for the fish that is.. not me ;-) )
Should I try just adding it to the water?
<Yes I would>
Last thing, I DID feed the fish live brine shrimp, and have read that
these are possible carriers for Ich. Any thoughts on this as the cause
<Can be a source... Hence my usual suggestion to soak all in
freshwater for several minutes before offering>
Thanks for the continued support ,
<And you for your further shared intelligence and related
Re: Crypt, QS failure 11/17/11
Sorry to drag you so far through the saga, but I think this Ich
incident might have finally driven me round the twist and I need an
independent view point:
<Glad to provide it/this>
Today, all the visible Ich signs have gone again except for
scarring/scratch marks, and I have only got as far as lowering the SPG
to 1.015 at this point! Three days ago I'm sure the fish was
<Mmm, may well have simply "cycled off" the host fishes...
as you're familiar w/ this parasite's life cycle...>
This, in combination with a 36 w UV running
<Mmm, do remind me: you did have the UV off while treating w/ the QS
at 450lph,24hrs daily for four days on an 85L tank with
substrate/ornament removal and re-placement (plastic bases/pvc etc.)
every second day is the only thing I've done since
the second Quinine dose failed to clear up the Ich. What is going
<Sounds like "bad" Quinine... or the UV, or?>
Could I have misdiagnosed the second outbreak and it was actually
Amyloodinium/Scar tissue/secondary infection et al?
This time there had to be plenty of all life stages in the tank, so
can't be just the normal ICH peek-a-boo cycle again yeh?
<Maybe not plenty of life stages... could be largely/only
I wondered if perhaps the residual Quinine has acted a bit late on the
fish this time (8 days effect, after dosing with a 30% water change at
day 5), or if I was just seeing the spots etc. long after the parasite
was gone,..... or if the substrate removal and UV is really being so
effective (with a modestly low SPG)?
<Let's hope for this last>
it's doing my head in trying to work out what I'm seeing.
I don't know whether to just sit and watch (default position for
now) or hit it with another Quinine and/or Metronidazole/Praziquantel
dose just to be sure.
<Mmm, I'd at least continue to lower the Spg>
I find it hard to believe the Ich has just up and vanished from the
little extra I've done, so I'm scared there will be a third
sudden relapse, what do you think I should do: wait or treat
Also if I do treat with Quinine and/or Metronidazole/Praziquantel at
1.014 SPG do you think I should halve the dose I've used for
<Mmm, I'd treat at near full dose, but keep a close eye on your
<And you, BobF>
Re: Crypt, QS failure 11/17/11
Yes I had the UV off while treating (and actually only have a low 9w
light above the tank in a dark room as well to avoid denaturing the
quinine (only just enough to see by )
<Well, "a swing and a miss">
I usually have to check the fish with a torch.
I'm going to try the stubborn approach and hit with a third dose of
Quinine today. I think I'll leave the Metronidazole as a follow up
to this after a water change as I don't want to stress the fish
more than absolutely necessary. Will let you know the results
Thanks for the help
<Welcome R. B>
Chloroquine Phosphate and
treating Display Tank 5/7/09
Hi Bob and Crew -
I spend at least 8-10 hours per week reading on your site and
absolutely love and appreciate all of the great advice. I have only
been in the hobby for about 6 months and already have a 300 Gallon
Reef, a 60 Gallon FOWLR, and a 34 Gallon Species with a Carpet Anemone
and one False Percula. You helped me identify a Nudibranch about a
month ago and I have since invested in another 30 gallon tank for
quarantine and treatment.
However, like many of your readers, I was devastatingly delinquent in
adding the quarantine tank. So, today I write you regarding my 300
Gallon Reef System. I have spend many hours reading on your site about
Crypto and other parasites and have recently added a Powder Blue Tang
from my 60 Gallon to the 300 Gallon reef system. A week later, I lost
my Puffer and Volitans Lion in the 60 gallon tank to Ich. Now, the
Powder Blue Tang is showing signs of Ich and has evidently spread the
love. My 5" Foxface Lo is also exhibiting signs of 'Black
<This, as you likely are aware, is not "that"
I know that the drill is to capture and treat all of the fish. This is
not possible in this tank. Even if I were to remove all the rock, many
of the fishes would hide in the substrate,
<Mmm, they can be sand-sifted out>
etc. However, last night I ran across a post where I inferred that
treating the display tank is better than nothing at all. I am afraid
that this will be my only option. So, my plan is as follows:
1) Remove all of my Coral and place in a large quarantine tank2) I have
ordered Chloroquine Phosphate based on recommendation by WWM and the
book "The Marine Fish Health & Feeding Handbook" This is
truly the least lethal medication for the fish and the best for a
<Currently likely the most useful for Protozoans, including
3) I will remove as many of my snails and crabs as possible<Mmm...
this antimalarial (Aralen) is quite toxic to a range of
invertebrates... and there are, assuredly, a huge mix of these in and
about your rock, substrate... These may be killed (along with any
algae), resulting in a toxic cascade effect... Again, it would be much
BETTER to remove the fishes, treat them elsewhere>
4) I will treat the display tank for 10 days with 40mg per gallon of
My question is, at the end of this treatment, assuming all of the fish
1) How long do I wait to add the coral and inverts back
<Three weeks or so>
2) Do I change 50% water and add charcoal to rid the Chloroquine? Is
<Activated carbon and Polyfilter should do it>
3) I believe that I have read in several places that the necessary
bacteria should not be affected by this treatment, is this still your
<Yes... however... the above reference...>
Is there anything that I have overlooked that may cause me problems
either immediately; or, long term?
<Turn off your skimmer, and UV, remove any other chemical
Thank you very much for all of your help!
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
[Fwd: Chloroquine Phosphate and treating Display Tank]
I left out my water parameters, etc:
Nitrate less than 5
<These are fine. I'd like to add the possibility of your
delivering the CP via foods... One formula calls for 3.7 grams of CP
dissolved in a gel powder mix of 300 grams... this mixed with water,
foods... less toxic to
non-targeted "other" life. BobF>
Love the website...I use it lots.
<It is superb...so do I>
Unfortunately, this time I have a question that I need a little more
help with. I have a boxfish (Ostracion cubicus) with a really bad case
of crypt....(I think).
<A better diagnosis than "I think" would be
I've had him for about 6 months and he's always been really
healthy and happy.
<Good to hear, not an easy species to keep. I have an O. cubicus
About a week ago, I went down to feed him, and found him absolutely
covered in little white bumps. I've read all of the remedies for
crypt on your site, but my problem is that I can't really use any
of them because I also have a banded bamboo shark, a porcupine puffer,
a spotted puffer, and a hermit crab in the tank.
<I also have a bamboo shark, cute when they're little, but fast
growers and they need a big tank!>
I know that if he gets stressed he can release a deadly toxin, which is
why I am unsure about moving him into a quarantine tank.
<All the more reason to do so>
I have noticed a couple spots on the puffers, but they aren't
nearly as bad. I've been treating the tank with Ich cure for a few
days, but he just seems to be getting worse.
<What are the ingredients in "ich cure"? I recommend
ceasing treatment and performing a large (50% +) water change>
I've also been adding some garlic in with his food, but that
doesn't seem to be helping either.
<Garlic isn't a cure for anything>
He's still happy, and eating great, he just looks terrible all
covered in bumps. I guess my question is Do I risk moving him into a QT
tank, or is there some other treatment that is safe for the shark and
the puffers? Any help you could give me would be appreciated... I'm
getting worried about the little guy.
<I'm not sure how big your shark, puffers, and boxfish are, but
treatment in a QT tank is always recommended. If this is not feasible
(water quality could definitely be an issue here) then your only option
will be to treat the entire display tank. Your "miracle cure"
in either case is going to be the medication quinine sulfate, available
At the risk of sounding like a salesperson (I'm not, just a fan!),
this is the most effective crypt medication I've ever used, and is
safe with puffers and sharks. Order it, pay extra for overnight
shipping, and treat asap. Quinine sulfate is toxic to molluscs, and
other invertebrates to a lesser extent>
Thanks in advance!!
Crypt help!!!! Part II
<Evening - sorry about the slow reply>
So I ordered the "miracle cure", and began treating the
<I'm not sure I would call Quinine Sulfate a 'miracle
cure', but it is very effective>
Its been 3 days and the problem only seems to be getting worse. The
boxfish is so covered in white bumps that you can barely see his skin
<Time for a freshwater dip>
My porcupine puffer has also taken a turn for the worst. I noticed
after I added the quinine sulfate that her eyes got all cloudy and she
was bumping into things.
<Possible a secondary bacterial infection>
She also stopped eating.
<Common in ill puffers>
Today, her eyes are completely white, and she is laying on the bottom,
breathing really hard. I have a feeling she isn't going to make it
<You should definitely move both of the fish into QT and treat with
broad spectrum antibiotics in addition to the QS>
I have a hospital tank, but it is currently housing a panther
<Time for a second QT!>
I'm not sure what to do now....do I continue the treatments and
water changes with the quinine sulfate, or do I set up a new hospital
tank, wait for it to cycle, and move them all into there?
<The waste products can be negated with Amquel+ or Prime, this
isn't the time to be worrying about anything except getting the
fish into a treatment tank>
I have been using a UV sterilizer (I turned it off when treating with
quinine sulfate as per the instructions on the bottle), but that
doesn't seem to have helped either.
<Flow rate through the sterilizer?>
The shark and the dogface puffer still seem unaffected, but I feel
uneasy about leaving them in a tank that is so sick. I've done a
whole range of water tests and nothing is out of range, I don't
know what to do next.... please help!!!!!
<Move all fish into a QT tank, treat with quinine and antibiotics,
and leave your main tank fallow (fish-less) for at least 5
<Good luck! Mike Maddox>
Dosing instructions on
Chloroquine Phosphate for ich?? 2/16/08 Hi, Looked
on your site and could not find the answer. I have a 200 gallon
saltwater tank with lots of live rock, a few large angelfish and some
other smaller fish (no corals). I have ich in my tank and want to try
the Chloroquine Phosphate powder....finally found it on line at
Fishchemical.com but don't know how to dose it. I would like to
dose it several times over a month so that it can kill all of the ich
swimmers as they hatch. <Mmm... really needs to be administered
outside the display tank... to discount interaction with other
materials> Found a dose in a book that was a one time only of 5 to
10 mg. per liter, but I need it to kill over an entire month to kill
all the ich. <A few protocols call for the dosage you mention,
applied every three days for three treatments> It seems to me that
this would require multiple dosing as the medication may degrade in the
system over time. I don't want to over dose and kill the fish, or
under dose and not kill the ich. I plan to remove 2/3 of my sand (with
the sand worms), and as many of my snails and crabs as I can find, and
my macro algae, and put them in a 40 gallon tank for 6 weeks to 2
months until all the medication is out of the system and the ich has
died off in the removed sand. <... this really won't work.
Again, you need to remove, treat all fishes elsewhere> How does one
dose this medication? I will be getting it in two days and hope it will
not be too late. I hope the powder has the milligrams listed per given
quantity. I have a gram scale. Does anyone know if it kills coralline
algae on the rocks? Would it be better to not put the snails and sand
worms back in and just go snail-less and worm-less so that I can dose
this medication anytime I have a problem. If I don't put any of the
old sand and stuff back in there may not be a need for the snails as
the algae would be all dead?? Thank you in advance for any advice,
Lesley in Houston <Please read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm Bob Fenner>
usage/dosage 2/13/09 I acquired a Kole recently,
and put him into quarantine where I've noticed two relatively small
white patches on him. About one month ago after reading Bob
Fenner's writings here, I acquired some Chloroquine phosphate from
a Canadian pharmaceutical company. It came in 250 mg tablets. My
question is how to go about trading him. The fish is in a 10 gallon
quarantine tank with a seeded filter, but I know that frequent water
changes will be necessary. Specifically, how do we administer the does
which I believe is 10 mg/liter (380 mg/10 gallon tank)? <You could
"grind up" the tablet/s... with a pill crusher... or have a
pharmacist do this for you (grind, weigh)... "guess"/measure
as to about the right amount otherwise> This drug is not like
copper. We have no way of testing its level. As we will need to do
water changes from time to time, how can we be sure that the level is
correct? <One can only "guess-timate" presently. There is
a broad range of efficacy, safety> Your advice will be greatly
appreciated as we would very much like to save this fish. Thank you,
Jeffrey Castaldo <And re the "patches" period... I would
not likely treat for this/these... better to dip/bath and place this
Ctenochaetus in your main display. Bob Fenner>
Re: Chloroquine phosphate
usage/dosage - 2/13/09 Based upon a dosage of 10 mg per 1 L,
which is what I have read here, 380 mg (1.5 tablets) would be correct,
and easy enough to attain accurately with a pill cutter. <We are in
agreement> However, having just acquired this fish, I am curious as
to why you recommend to just dip/bath the fish and place it into my
main display tank without the usual 30 day quarantine I usually adhere
to, and what is normally stressed here on WWW. <This genus is
"touchier" than "average"... and that you state you
have only a ten gallon to quarantine it in... My high confidence
opinion is that there is much less likelihood to be transmittal of
pests, parasites (excluded through preventative bath) than subsequent
damage to this specimen in a months isolation there> Without a
photograph, are you able to give me some insight as to what those
patches are? <Mmm, only guesses in either case. I have collected
Combtooth tangs in a few countries, though primarily in HI... these are
often hand-damaged through moving from hand netting (off a barrier,
mist net) to collecting/decomp. buckets... and later processing...
Often what one sees here are actual "fingerprints" on the
fishes' sides...> And when you recommend a dip/bath, are you
referring to plain buffered (8.4) freshwater, with Methylene blue,
Formalin, or? <I am referring to all of these possible protocols. I
would use pH adjusted FW, some MB and Formalin... the last with
heavy aeration> Also, I am still uncertain as how to go about
keeping the dose therapeutic when I need to make frequent water
changes. I suppose I could use Prime, but I am uncertain as to how to
incorporate that into the treatment. <A good question. I don't
know either. Maybe ask the folks at FishVet (.com)> I am sending
this follow-up because I do not fully understand, and want to
administer the proper treatment. Thank you very much for your
assistance. Jeffrey Castaldo <A pleasure to conspire with you,
Re: Chloroquine phosphate
usage/dosage - 2/13/09 Thank you for clarifying this to me,
and for your excellent advice and honesty. I realize that there is no
clear-cut solution for all situations; many times we must learn through
trial and error. Best regards, Jeffrey Castaldo <Ah, yes... am doing
my best to share, warn folks of my too-many errors... so they can avoid
these trials. Cheers! BobF>
Urgent Quarantine... Quinine
f' 1/24/09 Hello Crew, <Kayla> A few days ago,
I placed my marine fish in quarantine because a few were displaying
signs of ich. I have a Valentini puffer, six-line wrasse, "powder
brown"/white-cheek tang, hippo tang, and two percula clowns. After
much research, I decided to perform a freshwater dip with
formalin/malachite green and place into a 30 gallon quarantine with
hyposalinity (1.010) and 10 mg/L of Chloroquine phosphate. <Okay>
The first day went fine, but the second day the water became quite
cloudy. I have been testing the water qualities and have 0 ppm of
ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate, with a pH of 8.3. Today, I found the
wrasse laying on the tank bottom respirating very rapidly. Again, the
ammonia (etc.) levels were all in check. A few hours later, the powder
brown was doing the same thing, with very rapid respiration. So, I
immediately did a 50% water change (with Chloroquine), but then decided
to put in a carbon filter in case the Chloroquine was the cause of
their problems. <Good moves... I'd also add more aeration> I
fear I will lose these guys. I am not sure what could be wrong; do you
have any ideas? <Mmm... some sort of proliferation of microbes...
perhaps a chemical interaction with the water, and?> Have you had
experience with Chloroquine causing this? <I have not> Do you
have any suggestions of what I can do quickly to save them? <Not
quickly, no. But doing what you have... water changes, adding carbon...
should... and I would look instead to restoring near NSW Spg and using
a copper cpd. here... chelated...> I cannot move them back into the
display tank very fast since the specific gravity is significantly
better. Thanks in advance for your advice, Kayla <Thank you for
sharing. Bob Fenner>
Re: puffer/lionfish with Ick :
( 1/21/09 I read the article you asked me
and many more. The treatment is working and all ich appears to be gone.
<Ahh!> The directions on the quinine sulfate bottle are not that
clear. they say to ad .25 tsp for every ten gallons, once every three
days with a 25% water change in-between treatments. Then it says 3
consecutive treatments is equal to a 9 day continual bath. then it goes
on to the warning statements. my question is what do I do after a 9 day
continual bath? Do I stop treatment and see if any ich appear? <Mmm,
yes> Or do I keep treating? <I would cease after the three
exposures> Also the puffer is still not eating. He will chase the
food around and attempt to bite it but then just let is go. <Not to
worry...> Are spiny Burrfish (spiny box puffer via liveaquaria.com)
especially hard to get eating? <Sometimes, yes... and go on feeding
strikes at times for no apparent reason... Which you'd know had you
searched on WWM, read before writing...> What are your suggestions
on the Quinine Sulfate and the puffers "eating problems"
thanks for all the help/info, you guys have helped me save some very
beloved fish, Mike <Please... I've already referred you to where
to educate yourself... Do go there. B>
Yet Another Ich Question,
Quinine cpd.s 12/29/08 Hi WWM Crew, <Greg> Like so
many other marine aquarists, I am having a terrible time dealing with
ich. <Ah, yes... a scourge. Likely one of the chief reasons folks
give up on the hobby... An issue/factor that's been with
"us" as long as the hobby has... And one that I tried
repeatedly (and haven't given up) addressing the trade re... See my
letter archived here: http://wetwebmedia.com/AqBizSubWebIndex/ltrquartrdbiz.htm>
I first got the infestation in my 400 gallon, mostly FOWLR (I do have a
couple of shrimp, urchins, and an anemone), display tank back in July
of this year. I initially tried dealing with it by feeding food soaked
in Selcon/Garlic but things progressed to the point where I decided to
treat with Cupramine in a hospital tank. <No fun for sure> I
acquired a used 240 gallon acrylic tank and treated my fish for 28 days
with Cupramine which cured the ich. I then kept my fish for another 4
weeks in the hospital tank so that my display remained fallow for a
total of 8 weeks. Getting all my fish into the hospital tank was a huge
undertaking and included draining my display and removing 525 lbs of
live rock in order to catch the fish. <Ughh!> My fish finally
went back into the display tank at the end of October. Things initially
looked good for 2-3 weeks when, to my surprise, the ich returned. In
the interim, I gave away the hospital tank thinking that, with my 60
gallon quarantine tank I would never need such a large tank for
treatment again. At this point I am very frustrated. I have thousands
of dollars worth of very rare, expensive fish including a prized
Conspicuous Angel with Cryptocaryon. The fish are actually all eating
well/behaving normally, but they definitely have the disease. At this
point, having tried the copper/fallow approach I am ready to treat my
entire display tank, liverock included. Initially, I was thinking of
Cupramine but I am aware it would be nearly impossible to get a
therapeutic concentration with all of the live rock. <Correct... I
would not do this... use copper of any sort here> Also, I would like
to be able to return the inverts to the tank after treatment. I have
been reading about Quinine Sulphate available from National Fish
Pharmacy on your website. I have several questions pertaining to its
use that I have not found answers for. Is it absorbed by the live rock?
<To a minor extent, yes> Will I be able to keep inverts in the
tank again after its use and removal with carbon/Poly filters?
<Mmm... possibly... both this (QS) and Chloroquine Phosphate (CP)
are toxic to some algae, invertebrate groups, along with Protists...
really can't be used/recommended for application in a
"reef" system> Can I expect a huge ammonia spike from die
off from the live rock? <Is possible, yes> (mine is actually
quite bare from being continually pecked at by angels/puffers/triggers
so I am not really sure how "live" it is). Will it wipe out
my biological filter leaving me with an uncycled tank? <Not likely
here> My case is a little unique in that my live rock is worth
significantly less than my livestock. I am willing to sacrifice it if I
can rid my display of this disease. Thank you very much for your time.
Greg Cohen <I do wish I had better "news"... there are
probiotics, "vaccines" sold for Cryptocaryon... but not in
the U.S. as yet... I would try reducing Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOCs)
through the use of Ozone here (steady, high RedOx really is a very good
adjunct to boosting immune systems approaches)... this may shift the
balance here to your advantage. I do hope your fishes rally... Please
read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/redox.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>
Another Ich Question, Quinine cpd.s 12/30/08 Bob,
<Tom, thanks much for chiming in... I/we do delete folks emails,
including their addresses daily... but I do hope the querior sees your
input> Thought I might respond to this since I have a lot of
'experience' dealing with the Quinine, and to answer some of
his questions: It definitely is toxic to invertebrates other than
hermit crabs. It kills snails in a matter of hours if not minutes. It
can be removed with a skimmer, Polyfilter and water changes and inverts
can be returned to the tank after these measures are taken. It does not
cause a sizable spike in ammonia, as it does not seem to harm the
biological filter. or at least has not in my usage of it. Oddly enough,
it will completely destroy Cyanobacteria with one dose. The problem is,
I'm not sure how effective it is on this mega strain of Ich. It can
control it, but I have not been able to eradicate it. I ended up
disposing of my Atlantic Blue Tang because he seemed to be a
'carrier' of sorts, meaning after the medication is removed he
contracted ich again every time. My other fish, that being the Passer
Angel, Yellow Tang, and Lunare Wrasse (Oh, and Lawnmower Blenny) are
all resistant, so it would seem. I had the same issue as this guy, in
that to set up a hospital tank in order to allow the main system to
'fallow' was quite impractical due to the size requirements. I
feel his pain. <Me too> The question I have now is, and Bob, it
would pretty much be your opinion, is that I want to introduce a few
more fish to the tank once we are settled. What species or genus maybe
do you feel are most resistant to ich? <There are a few groups,
species that tend toward either end of the spectrum here> The
Atlantic Blues are definitely not. and I don't think I want to go
with another tang anyhow. Surely there are some types of fish that are
more resistant. I'm thinking now it's not a matter of choice
for me, but more of what can be considered an option. <... Mmm,
please do see the list (of families of fishes) listed in particular at
the Cryptocaryon area... these are the more sensitive/potential
carriers, "hard to cures"... at the other end of the
spectrum...Triggers are tough, basses by and large...> I'm
currently in the process of skimming out the Quinine and doing some
partials. After a week or so I'm going to reintroduce my QT'd
live rock and stars, snails, hermits, pods, etc. After a week or so of
observation, I will have the 20 gallon available for a QT tank. I do
not know, though, if I have eliminated the Ick because I removed the
fish that could not resist it (while continuing the treatment) or
whether I've got Ick still in the tank. I feel as if it's still
there, and if that's the case, I'd like an opinion as to fish
with the best possible chance of resistance. This has been a very
trying experience, and I wish him the best of luck. Thomas <Again,
much thanks. BobF>
Re: ich? copper not curing it
if so - possibly Brooklynellosis? 12/27/08 Bob: Thank you very
much for your prompt response and advise, including a reply on Xmas day
- now that is absolute dedication that all of us WWM users can't
thank you enough for providing such wonderful "service".
<Welcome James> I did see this Chloroquine Phosphate treatment
protocol on WWM 4+ weeks ago when I first started researching how to go
about dealing with my sick fish. And I even tried to get my hands on
some of this stuff, but I kept running into websites that required
prescriptions.... So I decided to go the tried and true route of
copper, but now appreciate that I need to try this new method. This
morning, I was able to find a website that will send Chlor Phos without
an Rx - the URL for this site is as follows: http://www.drugdelivery.ca/s33577-s-CHLOROQUINE-PHOSPHATE.aspx
<Thank you very much for this> They charge approx $85 inclusive
of shipping for qty 100; 500mg tablets (or 50 grams). <Yeeikes! And
oh my! This is a BUNCH of material> I will execute the suggested
protocol of 20mg/l (or 3,780 mg for 50 gallons) on day 1, followed by
50% water change 7 days later and redose of 10mg/l (or 1,890 mg/50G)
repeated 2 more times after that (a total of 4 dosings). I also
understand the lighting should be kept off for the entire 1 month of
treatment. <Yes... thank you for this as well. Fellow WWM Crewmember
ScottV is visiting and we were just talking about the photosensitivity
of this compound> Should I at least keep a ceiling light turned on
for 10-12 hrs per day? <I would, yes> I will certainly let you
know how effective this treatment was for me in approx 7 weeks (it
takes up to 3 weeks for the CP tablets to be sent, since they are
coming from a pharmacy in India). <I see...> In the meantime (3
weeks or so till dosing begins), beyond good husbandry of constant
water changes (with siphoning bare bottom) and smart feedings (with
Selcon and / or Garlic), is there anything I need to do, to give these
guys the best chance of survival? <Mmm... I would not change
anything here really> They do not appear to be "sick"
beyond the obvious exterior visual signs of parasites. Meaning, they
are all eating vigorously, they are not going to the surface, they are
not breathing rapidly, or swimming erratically (beyond occasional
attempts to scratch themselves on PVC), etc. The only one I am a bit
concerned about is the PB Tang - his tail seems to be regenerating, but
is still missing a good 20% of volume. I am attaching a picture (this
time MaxiJet 1200 with venturi attachment turned off, so air bubbles
not present in pix). Lastly - I appreciate the use of CP to treat Ich
seems to be a fairly new practice, and therefore there may still be
some unknowns, including long term affects, etc, but I was hoping you
may have input to this question: can CP be used for incoming stock in
QT as a prophylactic measure? <Mmm, I don't know this, or much
else re CP either... I want to be clear, honest... as always... and
state that I have no (zip, zero) experience with this material... And
my current gung-ho attitude may be misleading others... I had just read
some accounts, including in the new disease tome by Bob Goemans and
Lance Ichinotsubo... and am hopeful... The cpd. is tried and true in
terms of efficacy with humans...> For guys like me that clearly
can't distinguish the tell tale signs of Ich (even after 4+ wks of
QT on all incoming stock) would the use of this medication possibly
help avoid a future infestation of MDT? As I am sure you can personally
appreciate, and have heard a 1000 times over from your dedicated
readers, no one wants to ever have to battle something like this more
than once...... Thanks again for your time, experience, passion and
dedication to helping your fellow aquarists! Sincerely, Jim <Again,
my ongoing thanks to you Jim... please do relate your further
experiences here. Cheers, Bob Fenner>
Re: ich? copper not curing it
if so - possibly Brooklynellosis? 1/11/09 Bob -
hotmail appears to be garbling this ethread pretty badly, but hopefully
below is not needed to support this question as it only requires yes or
no: The Chloroquine Phosphate tablets arrived from the pharmacy in
India yesterday. My question is - should I remove the carbon filled
filter media from top filter during treatment? <Yes> I don't
have a skimmer or any other form of filter (except 3 sponge filters) in
this 50G hospital tank. Thanks and I'll let you know how this works
for me in 4 weeks. <Thank you> Jim PS - I lost the power blue
tang to this "super ich" strain a few days ago. The rest of
them seem fine though. I started the "no light" part of this
treatment a couple days ago, just to see how they would behave / react
to feedings, etc. They seem very skittish with no light, but did eat
all the food I put in (from bottom of tank as opposed to how they
normally come right to feeding site at top of tank). Not sure how this
lack of light will affect them for 1 month? <As long as there is
some outside light the fishes will be fine... there are meteorological
events that make it very dark underwater, sometimes for weeks at a
time, in the wild> Sounds like many other hobbyists have done this
previously, so I guess they will be fine. <Yes. Steady on Jim.
Thomas Roach Ick Omnibus,
formaldehyde, quinine f's -12/11/08 Hello Mr. Fenner and
others, <Thomas> Thought I would give you an update on my
situation, as I'm hoping you are still familiar with it? Mainly to
serve as a warning to others and emphasize the dire need for
quarantining livestock, because once you get this resistant strain of
Ick in your tank it is not coming out with ease? <Ah yes> We
moved a couple of weeks ago and of course the fish still had Ick? I
disposed of most of my sand bed to get to 1? or less for maintenance
purposes, changed 100% of the water and still had the infestation. I
treated it with a Formalin product similar to quick cure, which again
reduced the Ick while the treatment was ongoing, but with this strain
WHAT FORMALIN BASED MEDS SEEM TO DO is allow the remaining Ick to come
back at much greater numbers and strength? why this is, I do not know
but it has happened both times I have treated with the Formalin based
products. <A useful observation, note> This treatment I have gone
back to the Quinine Sulfate (by stock in Natl. Fish Pharm if they offer
it, I'm funding the place :-) ), and I seem to be having better
results completely by accident! In some foggy haze I quadrupled the
original dose for this size tank somehow, and it seems as though it has
proven to be more effective at a ridiculously high dose. After a 3 day
period I did NOT do a partial as recommended and treated at regular
dosage, and after the 2nd 3 day period I treated at 1 Â½
times the recommended dosage. The fish, into day 8, show no signs of
Ick, whereas they have in the past treatments. I'm not overly
confident yet, but I'll post results as we go. If other hobbyists
had any clue what I am dealing with, there would never be an email to
you regarding skipping quarantine, and I cant stress it enough to your
readers how much misery it can cause. Thomas Roach <Thank you for
reports on this ongoing exercise. Bob Fenner>
12/11/08 Thanks, Bob... let me restress how TOUGH this is...
to me far worse than Oodinium simply because you cannot get rid of it.
I have the salinity at 1.017, <Has to be much lower... 1.012,
perhaps under 1.010 to really mal-affect the Cryptocaryon... at this
level... most of your fishes as well...> temp at 82, and water full
of meds and it is still resistant! QT all your fish!!!!! This makes
African cichlids look mighty tempting again. <Ah yes... or even
Guinea Pigs!> On a side note, Quinine is quite effective at
destroying Cyanobacteria... at least it had one pleasant result... gone
with one dose. Thomas Roach <Silver linings... BobF>
Cleaning 11/17/08 Hi folks, <Elsie.> Well, it's been
two weeks since I tried to do a 100% water change on the QT tank and I
guess it didn't work because I think I see spots on the blue tang
and the Sailfin tang. So frustrating! <Tis frustrating.> Should I
try the copper again for two weeks, or should I try hyposalinity? Quick
Cure? <Do a Google search re Chloroquine phosphate on WWM and the
web. Just safer, less toxic, this is the stuff to use here. It can be
hard to find, the "in the know" LFS now carry it, otherwise
do call a vet or check the web. One source:
Most chemical supplies will have this too. Dose at 10mg/L.> Thanks
in advance Elise <Welcome, Scott V.>
Re: Ich Treatment/Quarantine
Cleaning 11/17/08 Scott, Thanks so much for your reply.
<Welcome.> I have never heard of the stuff before.
<Many...most have not.> I've been glued to my computer
digesting all the FAQ's on the subject. A couple of things I'm
wondering if you could clear up for me: Why Chloroquine Phosphate as
opposed to quinine sulfate? <They are completely different
compounds.> The quinine sulfate seems readily available from that
phispharm place. The link to spectrum you provided asked me to submit a
form, wanted to know the name of my organization, etc. <A pain, just
one source.> I will try calling some local vets. <Some will know,
others will not. Keep chemical supply houses in mind too. A quick
explanation of what you are doing may be necessary.> Will the stuff
have any effect on biological filtration? <Supposedly not, I do have
my doubts, though have not quantified them.> I read that
person's post about dosing 20ppm then waiting a week, doing 50%
percent change, dosing 10ppm, repeating three more weeks. I am still
combating ammonia, doing daily water changes. I guess I'd have to
redose with each water change? <Yes, prorated of course.> Could
get pricey, no? <Comparative to other treatment and depending on the
source it could, but it works!> Thanks for your assistance, Scott,
I'm very anxious to try this chemical, as I do feel that my tangs
suffer in the copper. <They do.> Elise <Scott
Re: Chloroquine Phosphate Use
Hello again Scott, I hope you won't mind me troubling you again
with a couple more questions.
<Hello Elsie, not at all.>
I have ordered some Chloroquine phosphate from
<Great resource! Thank you for this.>
I am starting to get nervous about using a chemical I can't test
<I know the feeling, no practical method for the home
The only procedure that I've been able to find on how to use the
stuff is the one described by a hobbyist on WWM's FAQ's: Start
with double dose of 20mg/L, after a week 50% water change and add
10mg/L, after a week 50% water change and add 10mg/L, after a week 50%
water change and add 10mg/L one last time. Is this what you would
recommend, or would you do 10mg/L from the beginning, or a different
procedure entirely?<The basic procedure is fine, but I would start
with the 10mg/L dose. I have heard of some using the 20mg/L initially,
but the lower dosage is tried and true.>Do I need to keep treatment
going for a month?<I would, is the recommended protocol.>I think
I will be doing water changes pretty frequently because of ammonia, I
will have to carefully calculate how much CP to add, yes?<Yes.>If
my math is right, I would want 757mg for my 20 gallon tank (20
gallons=75.7 liters, 10mg/L is 757), and if I did a 50% water change I
would add 378mg. Do I have this right? <Yes.>Should I keep the
aquarium light off during treatment?<An important point I neglected
to mention previously. This compound is photosensitive. Do leave any
lights off.>OK, this is more than a couple of questions (sorry), but
after all the time, money, and energy I've put into saving these
fish, I really don't want to make any fatal mistakes
now.<Understood.>One last question (promise!) Is this medication
is a good idea for any type of marine fish in need of treatment for
crypt?<I have never heard of nor read about any contradictions to
use with fish.>I thank you again, and my fish thank you as
well!Elise <Welcome, do let us know how it goes. Scott
Chloroquine Phosphate Source
10/28/08 Hi Crew, <Matt.> Thanks for all you do for the
hobby! I have noticed recently on the 'dailies' that Bob is
very excited about the prospects of Chloroquine phosphate as a
treatment for Ich and the like. I was interested in finding out where
this medication may be available for future reference, so I did a bit
of googling (not sure that's a word lol) and found that it is the
active ingredient in a medication named Avlocor (in the UK at least).
Avlocor is an anti-malarial drug in 250mg tablet form and is obtainable
without a prescription at the following link -
-for a very reasonable price. Would this be a form of Chloroquine
Phosphate that would be able to be utilised in the aquarium, and if so
how much would an effective dose be? <It should work out fine. 10
mg/l would be the dose. I don't know what it cost you, but this can
be had through many chemical supply companies, with many "in the
know" LFS keeping some on hand.> Thanks for your hard work and
commitment, Matt. <Welcome and thank you, Scott V.> <BTW,
thank you very much for sharing your finds. Scott V.>
Re: Chloroquine phosphate
Source 10/29/08 Hi Scott, <Hey there Matt.> Thanks for
the response. The cost of these tablets is Â£1.89 (~$3.10)
for a pack of 20, 250mg tablets. <Geez, pharmaceuticals cost sooo
much here in the U.S.> If my math is correct this works out at 3.7
pence (~6 cents) per 100 mg. I don't know if this is expensive or
cheap as I am having a hard time finding a chemical supplier who stocks
it. <Tis cheap, for my area!> Maybe it's easier in the US
(I'm in the UK). <Is prescription as a drug from my
knowledge.> At 10mg/l recommended dosage, I presume the easiest way
to dose it would be to dissolve a 250mg tablet in 25l of saltwater and
use this for start-up water in a hospital tank and subsequent water
changes. What do you think? <This could work, yes.> I also asked
about its use, in case there were any other ingredients in this
'designed for human's' tablet that would mal-affect fish
and/or inverts. Do you think there are? <Doubtful, more like fillers
and binders.> How effective would you consider this as a treatment
for Ich, in relation to copper or hypo? <Very effective in my
experience, can be used along with hypo. Do realize this drug is photo
sensitive, it will degrade with strong lighting.> Thanks for your
time, Matt. <Welcome, Scott V.>
Hurricanes, Ick, and the
like... 10/16/08 Well, folks. Thought I'd tell you a story
and present you with a new spin on and old issue and throw an idea at
you. <Ok> First, the trials. I have written you in the past for
advice for taking a tank through a power outage lasting several days,
and due to Hurricane Ike, we had an opportunity to put this to test. I
am glad to report that this was a success! Using a 6000 watt generator,
I was able to run the filters for one to two hours every 5 to 6 hours
to keep the tank 'breathing' (Also running refrigerator,
freezer, TV on occasion, some box fans, and a window unit in the
bedroom..). I am proud to say that I had cold beer throughout our
outage. <There is something to this> but I digress. When the tank
temp seemed to be creeping up a bit high, I would put a 2 liter bottle
of ice in the sump while the filters were on, cooling the water a bit.
After 5 days, we finally got power back, and all fish were alive and in
good health. so it would seem. Not sure if it was the absence of
lighting for 5 days, or the fluctuations in temperature, but the fish
were stressed of course. and a single fish contracted Ick. Now, a quick
recap is that we decided we had a 'subclinical' Ick
infestation, which was fine as long as it stayed 'sub'. Months
ago I had purchased an Atlantic Blue Tang, which has done just fine
with it's tankmates. Those are a Passer Angel, Lunare Wrasse,
Yellow Tang, Tomato Clown, two damsels, and a cleaner wrasse that has
defied it's life expectancy. The ABT is the only fish now that has
contracted Ick (of course it's present in the entire tank. why the
other fish are so resistant, I could not tell you). <Previous good
care, genetic heritage> I have been treating this tank with Quinine
Sulfate. <Do try Chloroquine phosphate next time...> we went
through an initial treatment, the Ick remained, we are now in day 5 of
a 9 day treatment. I still have signs of Ick on the ABT in day five.
Prior to treatment, I set up my 20 gallon tank and put as much LR as
possible in there, along with a chocolate chip (been with me for
years), a serpent, and sand sifting starfish, copepods, along with as
many snails as I could find and remove. The quinine is quite effective
on them, since unfortunately I had to remove a number of snails from
the main tank after they were deceased and revealed. This 20 gallon
tank will remain fallow for at least another two to three weeks
(already been over two). I am beginning to wonder how effective this
Quinine will be on the Ick remaining in the main tank. Basically, I
have a 200g fish tank devoid of life, with the exception of a) the
fish, b) the living bacteria in the rocks, and c) the Ick. Here's
the dilemma. I am formulating a plan c ( the a. was the subclinical
existence, the b. is the quinine). Copper is no option since we do not
want copper absorbed in the rock and silicone, etc. I have purchased
with dread a bottle of Quick Cure (formalin & Mal. Green) and it
sits atop the tank leering at me, still in it's packaging. Long
ago, I had used it with good results, then not knowing it's dark
side. Here I am faced again with a possibility of using it. If I use
it, I can get it out with carbon, water changes, and Polyfilters, I
think. Tangs though, are sensitive to it, yes? <More so than other
species... formalin is a general biocide... crosslinks peptides (longer
versions of which are proteins)... all life> I've thought about
dips/baths, but this is really pointless if there is Ick left in the
tank. To fallow the tank would require another tank of great size to
house these fish for another 4 to 6 weeks, again not an option,
especially when you're looking at treating sensitive tangs with the
same medications anyhow. So I am considering the Formalin at half
strength, wondering if this would even be effective in a partial dose.
<Mmm, no to partial dosing> Also, for your readers, I did use
something I had written about a while back, ParaGuard by Seachem. I can
only say that it is not effective with this 'resistant' strain
of Ick I have. perhaps it would be in other circumstances. Thomas Roach
<Thank you for the report Thomas. BobF>
Re: Hurricanes, Ick, and the
like... 10/16/08 Chloroquine phosphate? Hmm.... I have never
heard of this. Is there a common name for the product, or know where
it's available? I'll do a search for it and see what I can find
as well. <Search WWM re...> Would you recommend the Quick Cure as
a course of action, and if so, any specific precautions in respect to
my situation? <See WWM re Formalin and Malachite...> Thanks
again, Bob. I don't get to write as often due to lack of problems,
but I always enjoy the replies... Thomas Roach <BobF>
Re: Hurricanes, Ick, and the
like... 10/17/08 Been reading... and reading... and
reading. My wife is a Vet Tech and I'm having her ask the Doc if he
has the Chloroquine Phosphate. I've been calling around to local
LFS's and I can imagine the blank stares that accompany the vocal
responses. One recommended something called Kordon's Ick Attack or
some herbal remedy. What a poor bit of advice. I remember you asking
one of your readers if they would want to treat their child with tea
tree oil if sick, and I thought that was such a good analogy that I now
tell people the same thing. I think that if her Doc can obtain the CP,
I might give it a go, but I have no clue as to what form it would come
in or what dose to administer... He's treated horses, dogs, sea
lions, etc..., but fish? I don't know. <Mmm, there are a bunch
of vet's that "cross over" to exotics, including aquatic
animals... and Chloroquine IS the latest and greatest...> As for the
Quick Cure, of course no previous situation matches mine exactly, but
that is to be expected. <Look to the ingredients> It seems to be
an effective treatment if administered carefully, I'm worried now
about it's effect on the biological filter. <Destroys> There
seem to be mixed opinions on the subject. And then, if you add one drop
per gallon, but only do a 25% water change, wouldn't adding another
drop per gallon for the next treatment overdose the medication?
<Mmm, not likely... the ingredients... are quite transient... get
"used up" quickly. B> Seems a bit risky if you ask me.
Tonight I need to do a 25% water change and administer the last Quinine
dose, so I have three more days to decide. I can tell that the Quinine
does have some effect... without it, the tang has Ick every morning. I
have not seen it, or at least seen it in great quantity, since the
treatment began. I just wonder why it returns if the medicine kills it.
<Mmm, a few poss. The intermediates are shielded most likely>
Re: Ich Treatment
10/17/08 I have read the FAQs on Chloroquine and I placed a
order through an online company, but they called today and stated that
they cannot ship the item to a residential address. Do you have any
confirmed sites that can send the prescription without a Rx from a
doctor? Any suggestions would be appreciated. <I'd try your
local veterinarian. BobF>
More Re: Hurricanes, Ick, and
the like... 10/28/08, 11/13/08 <<RMF>> Hello Mr.
Fenner, <Bob is out away from the net for a bit. Scott V. with you
here.> No resolve yet, but updates for you and results of things
attempted... <Okay.> I went with the Quick Cure treatment, with
much worry. I used daily for four days, one drop per gallon, monitoring
water conditions and carefully observing the fish. Both tangs did fine
through the treatment, and the ich disappeared for the four days. It
did not kill the bio filter, either that or monitoring of the water
conditions plus immediate water change after day four prevented any
issues. <<Mmm... much more likely that either the bottle of QC
was not potent or that the make-up of your water/system absorbed the
principal ingredient (Formalin)>> However on day five, after
rerunning the skimmer and carbon, the next day the ich returned worse
than ever, again only on the Atlantic Blue Tang. <<More evidence
of the above>> This was Saturday morning. I had one treatments
worth of Quinine Sulfate left, which I administered immediately. (I
have not as of yet located the Chloroquine Sulfate, my wife's Vet
was not familiar with it.) <<Mmm, phosphate, not sulfate>>
<A treatment of growing popularity, though still hard to find. Bob
Goemans had a great article on the subject in the Sept. 08 FAMA, with
some sources for Chloroquine phosphate, one of which is
Most chemical supplies will have this.> The Quinine must have
severely reduced the ich, as Sunday and Monday mornings there were some
present on the fish, but not near the number as Saturday morning.
<It can be an effective treatment.> Prescription says to treat
these fish in a nine day continual bath... but I'm thinking that
perhaps twelve days or longer might be appropriate for this resistant
strain. I have never seen anything quite like this. Again, I'll
follow up with results/progress, but if you awaken in the night with an
amazing idea, please reply! <I will drop this in Bob's box just
in case he does have more to add when he gets back. Do keep us
posted.> Thanks again, we're struggling but pressing on...
<Welcome, a steady course my friend. Scott V.> <<Thank you
Scott, Tom. BobF>>
My fish are infested with ich,
SW, reading -- 10/10/08 Greetings , <Salutations>
My fish are infested with ich. I currently have them in a 10 gallon
tank, and am treating them with copper. I should have a larger tank as
there is a Yellow Tang, Sailfin Tang , Hippo Tang, Flame Angel, and a
Bicolor Angel all sharing mouse 10 gallon quarantine tank. <...
dangerous... too much life period, physio- and psycho-logically
squeezed in here> The copper treatment is about 5-7 days, <I
would not use copper on Tangs or Centropyge... Do (quickly) read about
Chloroquine use here> which hopefully will cure the fish. <Mmm...
too likely not... hard to keep a physiological dose up in such a
setting... and too toxic...> However, ich is still present in the
display tank, <Yes> and is bound to re-infect the fish if I put
them back into the tank, which means that I should leave the display
tank empty without fish for a while. <Correct> My question is,
how long? <At least four weeks... longer, better> I read about 31
days, but then again, I read that the ich can remain alive for months
even without a host present. <Can> I am going to raise the
temperature to 82-85 in the main tank, but am concerned about the
livestock remaining in the tank which are two lettuce Nudibranch, one
scooter blenny (which we have not been able to catch), one Coral Banded
Shrimp, too cleaner shrimp, about 80 snails, several red leg crabs, a
Sally Lightfoot, and a wonderful, slithery white ribbon-like eel.
<... the eel is/will act as a reservoir host here... Do you realize
this?> Which of these critters is susceptible to ich? I have read
that eels are somewhat resistant, is this true? <Yes> I do not
want to go through the procedure of leaving this tank fallow for
however long is necessary, only to put the fish back in for them to get
re-infested. <... Understood> I really appreciate your help and
advice with this problem. Best regards, Jeff <Mmm, well...
T'were it me, I would NOT treat the families of fishes mentioned
with Copper for Cryptocaryon... and NOT in such a small volume... the
Eel needs to be removed... and you need to read re the use of Quinine
cpd.s... Stat! Bob Fenner>
Re: My fish are infested with
ich, SW, reading Chloroquine -- 10/10/08 Advice taken
Bob, thank you very much for your prompt reply. Best regards, Just
Castaldo <I am very excited to find this anti malarial being found
to be of such great use... and look forward to the price dropping, its
availability improving with increased interest. Cheers,
Ich, copper and DT 7/24/08 Hello, <Hi
there> I was wondering if you could offer some advice in
regards to my ich problem. I have a 150gal FOWLR display tank and
a 40gal QT. Unfortunately the fish I have are too many and too
large to be able to treat in my QT. So after doing some research
I came to the conclusion that the best course of action is to
remove the LR from the DT, put it in a large container with salt
water, heater and powerhead, remove all my inverts and place them
in my separate fuge, then treat the DT and fish with copper.
<... a very poor idea> What do you think? Would you advise
this? <No and no> The DT would have only the fish and
1" live sand. <... the copper won't stay in solution,
and you'll be killing most all in the LS> There would be
no inverts or LR at all. <So?> I plan to treat using
Cupramine. <A good product I'll warrant, but won't
work here> How long should I treat the tank? <I
wouldn't... you'll find that you are unable to
"keep" a therapeutic dose of copper in such a
setting... too quickly adsorbed...> Would 3 weeks get rid of
the ich on the fish and the DT? The live rock, I would leave in
the separate container for 6 weeks and I would leave the fuge
disconnected from the main sump also for 6 weeks. Thank you for
any help you can provide. -Peter <Happy to banter with you...
If you're set on trying a cure in the main set-up, I'd
look into (and quickly) the use of Chloroquine phosphate... the
search tool, on WWM, the Net... Bob Fenner>
Re: Ich, copper and DT 7/24/08 Hello,
<Peter> Thank you for the quick reply. <Deemed
necessary... as is this resp. here> So the copper treatment
would be ineffective because the copper would be absorbed by the
live sand and keeping the correct concentration would be
difficult? <Adsorbed> Would I be able to keep the correct
concentration if I test the copper level daily and add as
necessary? <No... have tried this... with many gallons of
Cupramine... in commercial settings... over decades of time...
You don't have to repeat my lack of success. Won't
work> Would hyposalinity work better in this case? Maybe keep
the display tank and fish in hypo for 4 weeks. <... sorry to
state, I don't have time to re-write all of this... IS posted
on WWM, in books, articles penned by me...> I understand the
live sand would die in both cases. But with hyposalinity, it
would re-populate once the live rock is added back to the tank.
Plus I would be able to return the inverts once the treatment is
over. Something I can't do if using copper. Thank you for the
suggestion of using Chloroquine phosphate. I will research it on
the net and WWM. -Peter <I would... and quickly. BobF>
Re: Ich, copper and DT 7/25/08 Hello again,
<Peter> Thank you for the reply. I looked into Chloroquine
phosphate. Unfortunately I don't have access to this
medicine. <Ah, yes... perhaps worth the time, trouble to try
to buy through veterinary or human sources...> It would
probably take me a long time to obtain it and by then, all my
fish would be infested with ich. Interesting enough, my 2
triggers have yet to display any signs of ich, <Balistids are
"tougher", often sub-clinical> while all the other
fish have at least a few specks. But I guess that's what
makes Triggers so resilient. Again, I appreciate the help. But I
have to act fast, so hyposalinity will have to do for now. If ich
does come back months down the road, I will be better prepared
with a proper sized QT. -Peter <You may well be faced with,
defaulting to a (very common) choice of having an
ongoing-infested system... See WWM re. Bob Fenner>
Marine ich treatment, Chloroquine
Phosphate 7/22/08 To the Crew at WWM: <Gene> For
many years you've helped fellow hobbyists through their troubles
including myself. This time I do not have a question but I would like
to share my experience with the fight I've been having for YEARS
against ich. <Please do> Before I begin I would like to remind
everyone that proper quarantine is essential. It is NOT an option. A QT
system can be set up in an out of the way place (mine's in the
laundry room). My QT system is a 50 gal. AGA with a 15w UV, large
Aquaclear power filter, CPR BakPak skimmer, heater and a variety of
plants and PVC sections. This is what's worked for me, especially
since I usually have a couple of fish in QT so I needed the extra room.
My usual protocol would be to let the new fish settle in for about a
week <A very good practice> and then begin hyposalinity therapy
as a prophylactic measure for 3 weeks then slowly bring the SG back up.
Many people, myself included, can't wait to get their new fish into
their main system and don't have the patience to wait the month or
so. Try to think of how healthy the fish will be and the long term
enjoyment that will come from having that healthy fish in your system.
In the meanwhile you'll be able to observe your new fish while in
QT. <Good spiel> As stated earlier I have been battling ich for
YEARS with what I believe now to be a very resistant strain. I
don't like to use chemicals so I've tried hyposalinity many
times only for the parasite to reappear. I always QT my fish with an
average QT period of 4 - 6 weeks. Awhile back, I read an article in
FAMA about a product called Chloroquine phosphate ( CP ). The author,
Bob Goemans, also has a book out that I obtained which explained the
new chemical treatment. My system is a 210 gal. AGA FOWLR with a sump
capacity of 75 gal. and a 55 gal. refugium.. After I turned off my UV,
Ozonizer, Skimmer and refugium I began the treatment. At first I
didn't lower the salinity so the effectiveness was in question. A
week later I began hyposalinity (SG 1.009) with a CP treatment. One
week later the fish were looking amazingly well. However, when I
finished my first treatment and began increasing the salinity, the ich
returned. It was then I began believing the parasite needs to go
through its life cycle in order for many treatments to be successful. I
took a deep breath, regrouped and went a different route. The following
is what I did next. On 5/19 I began treatment with CP. The first dose
was a double dose of 20/ppm. and I did not use hyposalinity. My SG was
1.018 which was been slowly raised to 1.022.. On 5/26 I did a 50% water
change and added the second dose. This time at 10/ppm. On 6/3 I did
another 50% water change and added the third dose, again at 10/ppm. On
6/10 I performed the final 50% water change and add the final dose at
10/ppm. I turned on my skimmer on 6/28 and turned on the UV and
reconnected my refugium on 7/5. On July 8th. all fish were doing well
with no signs of parasites. I even introduced a Cortez angelfish and 6
chalk basses on July 1st that were appropriately quarantined for 6
weeks and they too are looking good. It's now July 22nd and the
fish in my tank have never looked better!! At this point I have to
believe the CP was definitely effective in eliminating Cryptocaryon
that is a thorn in the side of many hobbyists. It appears the correct
protocol is as described above; do not use hyposalinity with the CP
treatment, use a double dose of 20ppm with first dose, 10ppm for the
next three doses with all doses precluded with a 50% water change. (Of
course not to be used in the presence of photosynthetic organisms). The
Crew has helped many hobbyists over the years that I hope my experience
will also help other hobbyists out there an alternative procedure in
the battle against ich. It is not safe with photosynthetic organisms
but it appears to not have any negative effect on shrimp nor crabs.
Gene <Thank you for sharing your information and passion Gene. Much
appreciated. Bob Fenner> Stumped on med effects,
Quinine 6/19/08 Hopefully you are familiar with
my Ick battle, but if not, the short version is that I am treating my
main tank with quinine sulfate to combat the resistant strain of Ick.
If Bob is the recipient of this email, he is very familiar? if not,
trust that he and I have had extensive emails that led to this course
of action? and a new problem has arisen which I need some assistance
on. The entire tank has turned green. The two tangs, a yellow and an
Atlantic Blue, have not shown any problems. The Passer Angel has show
some uncomfortable reaction, and the Lunare Wrasse has gone into hiding
due to it. It has also effected a cleaner wrasse (purchased long ago,
before I became ?informed?), in that he eats, but cannot swim normally
anymore, seems extremely imbalanced. The quinine treatment, as
recommended by Natl. Fish Pharm, was 3 treatments, 3 day durations per
treatment, changing 25% of the water prior to each treatment.
Treatments one and two were fine, but my quinine supply was gone and I
had another batch aired in for treatment 3. This third treatment turned
the tank a nasty green color, killing all snails (which were removed),
and causing this odd reaction from the fish. The only other thing that
was added to the tank was something called ?Prime? by SeaChem, to
neutralize Ammonia and Nitrites, after the snail kill off. This was
done in conjunction with adding carbon, restarting the skimmer and UV
filter, and a large water change. I had to go out of town for a day
after this, and returning yesterday afternoon the water seemed to be as
green as before. (this is not algae bloom green, btw). Again, I did a
30% water change, added more carbon, etc. I noticed some improvement
this morning in both color of the water and the fish, except for the
small cleaner wrasse, who maintains his imbalance. Last night, after
the water change, all fish had an appetite and fed well. I spoke with
NFP Monday regarding whether or not Quinine Sulfate would cause such a
massive staining of the water, and they are adamant that it would not.
<I have witnessed this change before though... with Quinine...
perhaps an indirect effect... killing so much of competing, predatory
microbes that others that look green proliferate. I think the change is
biological, not simply chemical> I'm wondering if I received
something else in powder form by mistake that would cause the above
conditions, and does anyone there have any thoughts/guesses on this.
Does it sound similar (coloring of water, affecting of specific
species-particularly wrasses, invert die-off) to anything you have had
experience with? The tank is 150 gallons. The dose was a Â¼
teaspoon per 10 gallons. Again, just basically brainstorming, looking
for root cause type info. It is probably too late for the little
wrasse, I'm hoping all other fish can pull through this. It has
certainly made a 150 gallon tank full of African Cichlids sound
appealing?. <Mmm, yes> Thanks so much, Thomas Roach <Welcome.
Re: Stumped on med effects 6/19/08
Thanks, that was as best an assumption as possible. Last night on the
way home I stopped and bought the last two Poly-Filters that a LFS had
on supply. <Oh, how much I wish I owned the rights to this
product!> This morning there was clearly an improvement in water
clarity, so we seem to be making some headway. When I got home last
night, I thought we had lost the little cleaner wrasse, as he had
applied himself to the intake of the FX5 canister filter, which is
quite large. I fed some Mysis shrimp and Emerald EntrÃ©e, at
which time he released himself and fed quite happily with the other
fish. It's as if he's lost his equilibrium, and he was just
resting in an upright position with the help of the intake volume. Odd.
My thoughts would be that tangs would be more sensitive to upset water
conditions, <Depends of what nature> and that's what confused
me, that being the wrasses are impacted more than the tangs. And of
course, why dose 3 would have such a different effect than doses 1
& 2. <Worn tolerance> I will say, though, that the Ick is
gone. I sent an email earlier in the week that I believe was lost in
the technical issues I read about, that being that since I've added
Quinine to the water, it has eliminated all of the Cyanobacteria, every
bit of it. Ever heard of that, or thought that it would have that
effect? <Yes... and likely malarial Protozoans...> Maybe
something good did come out of it all. Thomas Roach <I do hope this
is the end of your trials... BobF>
Ich, Crypt... is hypo enough? Diff. of
opinions 04/13/2008 I know that a hospital tank
is the ideal way to handle an ich outbreak, but before going on
vacation three weeks ago my ich returned. In order to act
quickly, as I would be gone for a week, I pulled my live rock and
sand from the tank and lowered the salt to 1.012. This kept the
ich at bay while I was gone and upon returning I lowered it to
1.009. <<Ok....However, always best to get the hyposalinity
running while your around the tank, to keep an eye on salinity
levels / fluctuations>> It has been this way for over two
weeks now. I am wondering if, at this point, what would be the
best way to proceed. <<Continue hypo until all traces have
gone from the fish, and then monitor for 2 weeks>> My
display is bare only containing my fish and I am tempted to just
use this as my hospital tank. After two weeks of 1.009 hypo I am
still seeing periodic spots on two fish. At what stage in the ich
life cycle does the hypo kill it? <<Usually around 2 - 3
weeks before you start to see it disappear>> Is it at the
stage where it falls off the fish? <<Yes>> Anyway, I
am thinking that I will run the hypo for six weeks and after
bringing the salt levels up I will follow with a copper
treatment. <<No need for copper treatment after
hyposalinity>> I have done copper for four weeks before,
only to see the ich return after adding live rock from what I
thought was a reputable shop until I found that the live rock
tanks run on the same system as the fish tanks. So, this is where
I am at now and I want to know what to look for during the Hypo
process and if hypo could be enough to solve the problem alone or
should I use copper as planned. <<Hypo alone is sufficient.
Constant monitoring of the fish through-out the process>>
My fish are all thriving in hypo and have shown no behavior
changes thus far. <<Glad to hear it>> My tank is
running with a wet/dry w/skimmer, an Eheim classic and 25 watt
uv. Any suggestions as to how I should proceed would be
appreciated. <<As you have already started the hypo
treatment in the display tank, you may as well continue this
until the end.>> I am hesitating to move the fish into a
hospital tank as they are handling the hypo with little stress in
the display and I think that I would be best served to do the
copper treatment here as well, hoping to finally rid my fish and
tank of this problem. <<As said above, after an effective
hypo treatment, there should not be any need to use a copper
treatment afterwards. Your on the right path to rectifying the
Ich. Keep at it, keep water as pristine as possible, test
regularly. Hope this helps. Enjoy the weekend. A Nixon>>
Thank you, Greg Fasano
Re: Ich, Crypt... is hypo enough? Diff. of opinions (RMF
amended title) 04/14/2008 Hey guys, <Thomas> I
read this today on the FAQ, thought I'd add a comment since I
had a tremendous battle with Ich in my main tank a while back.
That Quinine Sulfate I ordered after you guys connected me with
that National Fish Pharm really did a wonderful job on my Ich
problem and did not harm my biological filter. and, though
it's a risk you take, I know that some fan worms survived the
treatment as well, as I had some appear some time after the
treatment on live rock that had been in the tank during the
treatment. I had not added any new rock at the time of it's
appearance. From all indications, I had the tough, resistant
strain of Ick as well. I recommend it if you have an Ick problem.
We've been Ick free for 6 months. Best of luck, Thomas
<Thank you for chiming in... with this timely input. Will
share. Bob Fenner> Ich, Crypt... is hypo enough? Diff. of
opinions (RMF amended title) 04/13/2008 I know that a
hospital tank is the ideal way to handle an ich outbreak, but
before going on vacation three weeks ago my ich returned. In
order to act quickly, as I would be gone for a week, I pulled my
live rock and sand from the tank and lowered the salt to 1.012.
This kept the ich at bay while I was gone and upon returning I
lowered it to 1.009. <<Ok....However, always best to get
the hyposalinity running while your around the tank, to keep an
eye on salinity levels / fluctuations>> It has been this
way for over two weeks now. I am wondering if, at this point,
what would be the best way to proceed. <<Continue hypo
until all traces have gone from the fish, and then monitor for 2
weeks>> My display is bare only containing my fish and I am
tempted to just use this as my hospital tank. After two weeks of
1.009 hypo I am still seeing periodic spots on two fish. At what
stage in the ich life cycle does the hypo kill it?
<<Usually around 2 - 3 weeks before you start to see it
disappear>> Is it at the stage where it falls off the fish?
<<Yes>> Anyway, I am thinking that I will run the
hypo for six weeks and after bringing the salt levels up I will
follow with a copper treatment. <<No need for copper
treatment after hyposalinity>> I have done copper for four
weeks before, only to see the ich return after adding live rock
from what I thought was a reputable shop until I found that the
live rock tanks run on the same system as the fish tanks. So,
this is where I am at now and I want to know what to look for
during the Hypo process and if hypo could be enough to solve the
problem alone or should I use copper as planned. <<Hypo
alone is sufficient. Constant monitoring of the fish through-out
the process>> My fish are all thriving in hypo and have
shown no behavior changes thus far. <<Glad to hear
it>> My tank is running with a wet/dry w/skimmer, an Eheim
classic and 25 watt uv. Any suggestions as to how I should
proceed would be appreciated. <<As you have already started
the hypo treatment in the display tank, you may as well continue
this until the end.>> I am hesitating to move the fish into
a hospital tank as they are handling the hypo with little stress
in the display and I think that I would be best served to do the
copper treatment here as well, hoping to finally rid my fish and
tank of this problem. <<As said above, after an effective
hypo treatment, there should not be any need to use a copper
treatment afterwards. Your on the right path to rectifying the
Ich. Keep at it, keep water as pristine as possible, test
regularly. Hope this helps. Enjoy the weekend. A Nixon>>
Thank you, Greg Fasano
FAQ on Quinine Compounds 8/8/07 This
is just some info, since I just used some of this medication, and what
I got to experience, if it helps anyone, good. I read all of the
Quinine Compound FAQ, there was a lot of negative info on Quinine
Hydrochloride. I used Quinine Sulfate, recommended by National Fish
Pharmacy, which was very effective on my ich problem. It is not toxic,
apparently, to hermit crabs, which I suppose are resilient little
creatures, but it is very toxic to other invertebrates! I had 6 turbo
snails in the tank (or so I thought) which I removed and placed in my
20 gallon, but apparently I had 8, and within a half hour of adding the
Quinine Sulfate, the remaining two snails were belly up on the bottom.
It isn't an instant killer, because they were fine after I quickly
snatched them out and put them in the other tank. Anyway, I just wrote
this to tell about a specific experience. I can see where it can get
confusing, i.e. Copper = Good for fish, bad for inverts & sharks;
Quinine Hydrochloride = bad for fish and inverts and most likely
sharks; Quinine Sulfate = good for fish and sharks, bad for inverts.
Oh, and from experience past, Kent Marine RXP = safe for fish and
inverts, also safe for ich. DOES NOT WORK. :) Thanks again, gentlemen
& ladies... Thomas <Thank you for this input Tom. BobF>
Re: New Ich, Note re Quinine use
8/20/07 Ah! Eureka! Maybe... I consulted National Fish Pharmacy
again about the quinine sulfate. Though I treated it as prescribed by
the label, I did not turn off my protein skimmer. Now, the label says
to turn off any UV filters and remove any carbon, but it said nothing
about the skimmer. The guy at NFP said to definitely turn off the
skimmer. Just an FYI, for anyone who might use the same treatment.
Thomas Roach <Thank you for this. BobF>
Re: Another ich (crypt) question
7/28/07 Hello, Crew <Allan> On following Bob's suggestion
for treating resistant strains of crypt, I purchased 100 grams of
quinine sulfate. <Grams?!> I searched through the archives and
couldn't find anything regarding quinine sulfate and carbon use,
and protein skimming. I'm following "normal" protocol for
most medications by shutting down the U.V./skimmers and removing
carbon. <Good> My question should be directed towards National
Fish Pharmacy, but it's early Friday evening and I would rather not
wait until Monday for an answer. Can I run the protein skimmers and add
carbon with the use of quinine sulfate? Obviously, I would like to
maintain optimum water quality if possible. <Quinones are too easily
removed by such... I would do as you have. Bob Fenner> Thanks again.
You guys/girls are terrific! Allan
Medicine reactions, Quinones, sharks...
7/28/07 Another opinion needed! After speaking with Natl. Fish
Pharm, I purchase some quinine sulfate to kill Ick in my tank in the
presence of a shark. Though it isn't recommended, we are treating
the main system. My snails were removed before treatment and it does
not affect the hermit crabs at all. The treatment as prescribed was to
add the quinine (done Tuesday) and after five days perform a 25% water
change and run carbon to remove the quinine, then after a day repeat
the treatment. <Okay> No fish appears to be bothered by the
treatment, and they are no longer scratching on rocks at all, so I am
sure it is working. My question is about the shark. He still looks
really healthy. On Tuesday he ate quite a bit of shark formula w/ Zoe,
right after the quinine was added. Day two he came out at feeding time
and ate a few pieces. Day three (Thursday) he didn't really show
any interest in the food. I've noticed he seems a bit more
lethargic and doesn't seem to have an appetite. I'm tempted to
go home today and do the partial water change and run carbon to remove
the quinine. Tomorrow is day 4 of the treatment though, and I'm
wondering if I should try and make it the five days. Do you think that
this quinine is bothering the shark? <Not likely> And, have you
any experience with the quinine and Ick? <Ah, yes> What would you
think is the minimum effective treatment duration? <Two weeks>
I'm in a catch 22 here. The sole reason for the quinine is to
effectively whack the Ick without hurting the shark. I'd like your
opinion on it. There is very little in FAQ about quinine & sharks
but one or two notes. Thanks a million. Thomas Roach <Time to
purchase or borrow some books Tom... Look for the name Ed Noga. RMF>
Re: Ich - Frustrated, Shark Treatment 7/18/07 I have been on the
'net searching for someone that sells quinine for over an hour...
sighs... Any ideas? Thanks... Thomas Roach <I would try here,
http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/ . Give them a call if you
can, they are very knowledgeable and friendly.>
Re: Ich - Frustrated, Shark Treatment 7/18/07 I
had to share this with you guys. I don't know if you care for
specific references to suppliers, but this may help someone, it
certainly did me. In my search for quinine for treating the Ick in the
below situation, I found this: http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/
<Yes, my experience with them has been quite positive.> Calling
them, I spoke with Dr. Brian (sp) who answered the phone. He does
research there, and was able to provide me with quinine sulfate. He was
very informative and very interested in answering my questions.
Apparently his father founded this company after being fed up with
bogus medicines and treatments and their misapplication. <Need more
of that in the hobby.> He told me about different treatments and why
not to use each one, explaining how each worked and the results to be
expected. Specifically he told me that quinine sulfate would work
better than the hydrochloride and that it was an excellent treatment
with sharks present. It is very effective on crypt. He even suggested
an alternate treatment program as to save me some money, so he was not
interested in selling me something I did not need. <Nice> If you
want to post this for your readers or look at the site yourselves
please do so. <Will do so.> It is nice to find, along with
WetWebMedia, and informative source that is so willing to help the
average hobbyist. I hope this helps another reader some other time.
<I'm sure it will> Sincerely, Thomas Roach <Thanks for
sharing, always good to here people getting real help, retailers going
beyond the minimum to help their customers.> <Chris>
Need help finding a cure... <Crypt/Velvet?...
Chloroquine...> 8/28/05 Wow.. what a wealth of knowledge you
have and I am so thankful you are sharing this knowledge with us! I
love your site and though there is soooo much information on your site
it can make things difficult to find, but with a bit patience and lots
of searching I can usually find answers to almost anything.. I do
commend you (and the rest of WWM crew) for the time and effort you put
into this amazing hobby. well.. I wouldn't be e-mailing you if here
wasn't a problem.. so here goes.. We have a 1500 gallon system..
yes 1500 gallons, my husbands dream (I love it too : ) but I can at
least blame it all on him : ). It is actually 5 tanks that line two
walls of our basement all on one filtration system which is located in
the garage. The tanks have been up and running about a year now and we
are slowly getting them stocked and arranged. It is a slow and
expensive process as you are aware. I guess with adding new items to
the tanks we are always at risk. We have a separate 400 gallon tank we
are using as a quarantine tank. <All water, gear... separated>
For some unknown reason.. maybe adding new corals to the tank we had an
outbreak of what we believed to be ich. we removed all of the fish
except for the ones in the reef.. (Powder blue tang, 3 blennies and a
mandarin goby). <Mmm, if there are fish/es present in part of the
system, they will act as "reservoir hosts" (scientific
term)...> So now in the 400 gallon QT tank we have the following:
Pink Tail trigger, Nigger trigger, Naso Tang, 3 yellow tangs, Blue
hippo tang, skunk clown fish, emperor angel, blue faced angel, purple
tang and a golden puffer... (there was also a clown trigger, lemon peel
angel and long horned cowfish, but they recently passed) Ah yes. the
golden puffer.. here is where our problem lies... Since we
do have a puffer we cannot and do not want to use the conventional
copper medication for fear of killing him. We have always
used Hyposalinity in the past with great success, however they have
been in hypo for about a week now with no improvement. the fish we left
in the reef part of the main system actually look better than the ones
in the QT tank. Only thing we can come up with is marine velvet..
<Mmm, for the many dollars you have invested in this system,
livestock, ongoing operational costs, I would invest in an inexpensive
microscope, learn to use it... not hard, expensive...> and only
medication we could come up with people actually having success with
was Aquatronics Marex which contained Chloroquine <di>Phosphate.
However to my findings over the past two days.. Aquatronics has gone
out of business and that medication cannot be found. <Mmm,
actually...> I am having great difficulties finding another med with
the same ingredient or a vet to prescribe me Chloroquine Phosphate
because they do not specialize in fish... Do you have any suggestions
on obtaining this medication or another med that may help with external
parasites that will not harm our puffer? <Careful use of chelated
copper along with hyposalinity... of all fishes... would be my
choice... If you are convinced that you'd like to try Chloroquine
diphosphate (note spelling) this compound can be procured for human use
(used to treat malaria)... expensive... from a medical doctor
source> I have read so many articles on FW dips, but would Hypo not
have the same effect? <Mmm, generally not... the rapid change in
osmotic pressure is often of much more immediate relief, destruction to
single-celled animals> If we try to FW dip can we dip multiple fish
at once and change FW between "groups". How long can you
leave them in there without causing too much stress or harming them
more? <... this is posted on WWM> You have my utmost gratitude
for any help or suggestions with this.... Thanks for your time!! Jatana
<I strongly encourage you to have local folks... guru/s from a
marine hobby club, expert service company personnel... come to your
site, inspect your fishes, system... help devise (and soon) a workable
plan for isolating, treating ALL your fishes... and carefully
quarantine all future purchases. Along with the microscope, I cannot
urge you enough to procure a copy of Edward J. Noga's "Fish
Disease Diagnosis and Treatment". Bob Fenner>
Malachite green/quinine and ich G'day guys, <Good
morning Luke, MacL here with you today.> I have found your site most
informative. <Many thanks for the nice words.> I have
a 530 litre, 5 foot by 2 foot, by 2 foot Tropical reef tank set up. In
my tank I have 2 Pajama cardinal fish, 3 Green Chromis, 1 regal tang, 1
mimic tang, 1 mandarin fish, 1 scooter ( Neosynchiropus ocellatus ). I
also have 1 pink Goniopora - bowling ball size, 1 green Goniopora -
apple size, 2 species of Discosoma, 1 group of Zoanthus and 2 Anemones.
I have a wall of live rock along the back of my set up, Serpulorbis
inopertus and Haliotis varia are quite common through this wall. 18
months ago I successfully treated an outbreak of Cryptocaryon irritans
on my regal tang with a 4 day treatment of Quinine hydrochloride and
malachite green. All of the above species in my tank survived, though
the Gonioporas went into themselves for 8 days. Everything has been
fine until now. Recently I added 1 clown wrasse, 1 18 inch
snowflake eel and 1 Pentaceraster tuberculatus. I now have another out
break of Cryptocaryon irritans. The regal tang has a good smearing of
white spots and most of the other fish have 1 or 2 spots on them. No
fish are showing physical distress YET. I believe the white spot
came into my system on the clown wrasse though at the time of purchase
no physical signs were noticeable. For future use I will be setting up
a hospitable / Quarantine tank. I know I will have to remove the
Pentaceraster tuberculatus before using the same treatment as before,
Quinine hydrochloride and malachite green, but I do not know if I
should remove my snowflake eel? <Definitely take him out of
the tank while the treatment is going on.> Please your opinions
would be greatly appreciated. <Good luck, MacL>
- Greenex Strikes Again - Hello Crew, I have another
question my tank had caught ich and the guy at my LFS told me to use
Greenex so I did. Now all the LFS are telling me to throw away all my
sand and recycle my tank. The Greenex worked alright, done a great job
of killing ich, but it took my fishes, corals, and invertebrates
<Doesn't sound like a good cure to me... I would fire the fish
store that gave you this advice [to use the Greenex on your
Sigh... of all means I don't want to have to recycle my tank, so I
wanted to make sure about what you all think before I take action.
<You must re-cycle the tank at this point, but you probably
don't need to throw out your sand... run some activated carbon for
about a week or two and you should be good to go.>
Thanks, Chris <Cheers, J -- >
Pounding Parasites! (Another Medication?) Chloroquine for
parasites? You guys have a great website for information! <Glad
that you find it useful! We enjoy bringing it to you every day!> I
have been battling a persistent ich infection and potential velvet to
boot. DON'T ASK. I am now a quarantine believer, but 1
fish too late. <Well, better late than never. As long as
you learned your lesson, the fish did not die in vain...> I run a
protein skimmer, UV sterilizer, and a canister filter (convenient for
carbon, etc. when needed) along with two other powerheads for
circulation in the tank (100 g acrylic). I had previously treated
quarantined fish with a round of CopperSafe for 14 days to an apparent
cure and allowed my main tank to go fallow for 4
weeks. After returning the fish for a 4 week disease-free
period, I purchased 2 more fish (purple tang and Foxface) from a very
reliable dealer that quarantines and dates their fish arrival (fish had
been in same tank for months), therefore did not freshwater dip due to
stress issues that I had previously experienced. <I have a bad
feeling about this...> After a 2 week quarantine in my own tank
(disease free) I added the fish to my main tank (100 gallon FOWLR with
60 lbs LR). After another 2 weeks I suddenly had a
pearl-scale butterfly stop eating and dead the next day with no other
outward signs of disease. 1 week later purple tang and
Foxface had signs of gill problems (gulping air and increased
breathing), followed by a couple days later with external signs of ich
on the purple tang. Tank chemistry was great, temp constant.
<I'm wondering if this was Amyloodinium, not ich. The
"gulping" and difficulty in breathing are symptomatic of
either advanced ich or Amyloodinium...> Now my 20 gallon quarantine
was not big enough for the fish (and my wife not tolerant enough for
more tanks)....soooo .... I remove all invertebrates and live rock to
my 20 gallon (I have no plans for corals) and treated the main tank
with CopperSafe. (I realize you are cringing at this point, but this
was a very calculated move that was made with much thought). <I
wouldn't have done it this way, but I can certainly understand your
reasons for doing this...> Problem solved.. ich gone after 3 weeks
of measured copper treatment.. removed all traces of copper and 2 weeks
later replace the live rock, followed by invertebrates to the
tank. All is great for about a month and suddenly had ich
again and a dusky appearance on the purple tang (maybe
velvet). Repeat the above with lowering Spg to 1.016 and
added a cleaner goby and am using Cupramine this time instead of
CopperSafe. <Grr...> Am now finished with the three week
treatment using appropriate daily measurements of copper levels (as
before). All fish are eating great, look full bodied and
healthy, except for lateral line with the purple tang (not surprising
given the copper). <Good observation on your part! One of the
potential side effects of copper with tangs...> I will remove
Cupramine for the next two weeks with PolyFilter and carbon, increase
the salinity, and then return the live rock, followed by the
invertebrates once I see the pods living well. On the upside
the 20 gallon quarantine has great pod growth with no fish to eat them.
<Good to hear that!> Other than the downside of treating my main
tank can I do anything better? This is not a scenario I want to keep
repeating. <Agreed...I might leave the tank fallow for a longer
period of time- like 6 weeks or more. This can really disrupt the life
cycle of the causative protozoa.> Given my prior persistence of
parasite and the nagging fear of an ongoing velvet infection will I get
any advantage from additional treatment with Chloroquine biphosphate?
<I'm skeptical at this point. Could do more harm than good.>
What is your opinion on using Chloroquine biphosphate? Can
it be removed from the tank with carbon after 10 days?
<Carbon/Polyfilter can remove many medications effectively..> It
is very difficult to find any good information on Chloroquine, since
few people seemed to have used it much. Thanks for your
help. Have a great day! Nick Lukacs <Well, Nick
personally have not used the stuff, either. I am more inclined to go
fallow longer than I would be to "nuke" the tank with yet
another medication. Tough on the fauna in the tank, as well as the
fish. Short of thoroughly breaking down the tank and starting over,
I'd go for the longer fallow period, myself. Good luck! Regards,
I dosed it with Greenex Thanks a lot.....btw, my tank came
down with ich! I dosed it with Greenex, and all the fish died the next
day. <Argghhh, I hate this product... not uncommon result> My
tank got milky white and I did a 50% water change. The cloudiness
continued for several day and is now dying down. I know I shouldn't
have but I decided to add another clarkii for the anemone, so far so
good. It's been 5 days and the clarkii seems OK. He took to the
anemone in about 1hour! He now sleeps inside it and it closes around
him like covers (really kewl). BTW all my corals lived through the
medication just fish casualties. Thanks for the tip on the sponge for
bubbles I know I need to be skimming, but I couldn't stand all the
bubbles. <Maybe relocate it to a sump?> I have a lot of
brown algae on the back glass would it hurt to leave it growing or
should I scrape it? <If it bugs you, scrape away... should turn
green with time, improving conditions> Hey thanks again for caring
so much about the hobby by taking your time with all these questions.
Much thanks, Joe >> <Be chatting. Bob Fenner>
Greenex and UV? Hi Bob- I am currently treating my 12 gallon
marine tank (fish/live rock/few inverts) with the product
'Greenex' by Aquatronics, for ich which developed on a new
fish. This product had failed me once in the past, but I caught the ich
within hours of first appearance this time and decided to give it
another shot. Surprisingly, the ich was off the new coral beauty the
very next day...and I am continuing treatment. my question: Is it safe
to use my UV filter while using the 'Greenex' product?
<Yes... that is, the UV does not affect the type of copper and
formalin mix which is Greenex...> I turned it off before treating in
fear of a poor reaction, but would like to use it if possible.
Unfortunately, the box mentions nothing regarding the issue and I have
been unable to acquire any company contact info for Aquatronics. Your
help is appreciated. Garin <The usual warning here re this product,
apparent "disappearance" of ich... the former is rather
toxic, has little safety/efficacy margin... the latter does just
"cycle off" initially until developing multi-generational
stages in a system... Please read through the FAQs on "Marine
Ich", and the MANY associated FAQs and article files to
"Marine Parasitic Disease" on our site:
www.WetWebMedia.com... and be prepared to enforce other treatment... at
least the environmental manipulation, vitamin prep. and cleaner ideas
gone over on WWM. Bob Fenner>
Re: Greenex and UV? Thanks Bob- I have read through nearly
all your FAQ's regarding Ich and the sort...very helpful! I will
begin the environmental manipulation, since I lost my electric scallop
to the Greenex anyways. Hopefully the Emerald and Scarlet crabs will
pull through the changes. <Me too... and please do write, express
your concerns re "labeling" to the fine folks at the
manufacturer (Aquatronics)...> I will also try a neon goby as a
cleaner, but fear the trigger will have him for lunch.
<Surprisingly, they don't eat them at once... recognizing
Gobiosoma as allies...?> Regarding nutrition...currently I have a 3
fish: a Picasso trigger and a valentini Toby/puffer (each about an inch
long), and my new coral beauty angel. What food/brand would you
recommend for the best nutrition (whether it be frozen, flake, or a
combination)...whatever would be best? <Please see the
"Foods/Feeding/Nutrition" section on the Marine Index on our
site: www.WetWebMedia.com> The angel doesn't seem too interested
in the 'brine shrimp plus' flake or the frozen blood worms the
others love. I thought I might try growing some Caulerpa algae in the
tank for him, since he ate all my hair algae. <Add more live
rock...> I will beat this ICH!! Thanks again, Garin <Good
attitude. Bob Fenner>
Greenex use The guy at the fish store says that he uses
Greenex to treat Ick in a system with live rock and sand...I thought I
remembered your website said that Greenex wasn't good.. when I got
home I checked and it said that it killed some fish...the bottle states
that it is safe for all fish, invert... and biological systems.. What
is the deal?? Cheryl <Unless the formula has changed, Greenex is not
non-toxic... too dangerous, responsible for many losses... Post this
msg. to the listservs for others opinions, experiences. Bob
Question about a disease My cowfish is swimming in circles
and around its own center horizontally. It happened after I treated it
with "Greenex" (Malachite Green and Quinine Hydrochloride)
anti-protozoan agent against a marine Ick for five days every other
day. On the box of the medication, it says that it prevents exactly the
same conditions as the fish acquired afterwards: scratching and
darting. The fish is so disoriented that it cannot eat pieces of
octopus I feed it. What should I do now? <Change water, run
activated carbon in your filter flow path, lower specific gravity, toss
this toxic "medication" in the trash, use the search feature
(Google) on the wetwebmedia.com site and seek the commiseration of
other aquarists on the chatforum: http://talk.wetwebfotos.com/
Otherwise, be patient and hopeful. Bob Fenner>
Another Greenex Burial Hi bob, I have a 38 gallon Berlin
system reef tank. I recently used Greenex, malachite green and quinine
HCl, to treat a tang that had white spots. The first two days of the
treatment were fine, I kept the filters running without the carbon,
turned off the protein skimmer, and continued use of Kalkwasser
solution, and reef solution. Then on the final day of treatment, I
decided to take out the filter block from one of my filters because I
had notice that it had been dyed blue, and I forgot to shake the bottle
of Greenex before adding it to the tank. After about two hours one of
my Foxface started heavy gilling at the bottom of the tank, 10 minutes
later it had gone from yellow to flush white started swimming upside
down, did a vertical loop and flopped dead on the live rock. My second
Foxface also succumbed despite an emergency water change, putting
carbon back in the filter, and turning on the protein skimmer. My tang
and clownfish were noticeably effected for 3 or 4 days but have now
come back to normal, and my blenny never seemed bothered. Was all this
a result of not shaking the bloody bottle of Greenex? Thanks for
help <More of just using this "medication"... the
filter was removing a modicum of the malachite and formalin (the
ingredients) lessening their toxifiying your fish... removing the
filtrant hastened the effect. Bob Fenner, who is glad to read of your
other fishes revival> sincerely Ben
Greenex WWM Team, I was reading through your Daily Q&A
and read a post where a user had his tanked wiped out the day after he
added Greenex and wanted to let you guys know that this exact thing
happened to me about 6 months ago. I had a couple of fish sick with ICK
and cloudy eye my pet shop recommended Greenex since I had some
invertebrates, well after dosing my 180 gallon tank with 180 drops of
Greenex the following day EVERYTHING was dead. I don't know what
they put in that stuff but it had wiped out my tank just like it wiped
out his, needless to say I've learned my lesson but paid a hefty
price tag for it.
Greenex I have a 50 gallon show tank with a Kole tang,
Spanish wrasse, a clown, a multicolor sea urchin, 2 damsels, 2 fire
gobies, and a flame angle. My clown got Ick a few days after I got him.
<That is why we always recommend any and all additions get a four
week quarantine period.> My friend that owns the pet store I bought
it from recommended Greenex. I had had problems with my fish dying
after application before but was convinced that it was my tank because
it was still new (about 3 months old). <It could also have been the
disease itself that killed the fish, not the treatment.> My friend
convinced me of it, but I took his advice because it worked on his
fish. I made sure this time to check my water before application, every
thing was perfect. I applied it as recommended, 1 drop per gallon. The
next day the wrasse, tang, urchin, clown, angel, and one goby was dead
along with one of my sand sifting stars. <Wow!> Is it just me or
is this stuff killing my fish? <I have had bad experience with this
product on invertebrates, so I would believe it is possible that your
urchin and starfish was effected, but too many other variables to say
for certain the medication killed the fish. The speed of the deaths
does lend credence to your suspicions, but it is also possible the
clownfish was infected with Amyloodinium and Cryptocaryon. Amyloodinium
is harder to see and may have spread unnoticed. A quarantine/hospital
tank is a must. Please see www.WetWebMedia.com regarding set up and
proper use.> I mean none of these fish were sick. I have had most of
them for almost 6 months and no problems, no signs of being sick and
all of a sudden mass die off! I checked my tank again every thing was
fine. It seems every time I add this stuff to my tank all my sensitive
fish (expensive fish) die! <See, I would see the problem as every
time you add a unquarantined fish, it becomes sick in your tank,
infects everyone, you then treat the whole tank, and you experience
deaths.> Is it just me or can it be the Greenex? <It is possible,
but you have other forces at work here. -Steven Pro>
Treating Marine Parasites <<JasonC here, Bob is off
diving>> Mr. Fenner, sorry to bother you again, but.... The
symptoms on my fish were getting worse (ich and marine velvet) so we
got a skimmer, but then started using Rally and Kick Ich by Ruby Reef
to try to save fish and had to turn skimmer off. I ended up losing my
Gold rim tang, Heniochus, and true Percula. Obviously these meds
didn't work. I know you said to get Alkalinity right and keep water
quality excellent, lower salinity slowly) and raise temp. I did these
as well, Water is great, salinity is at 1.019 normally it is at 1.022
0r around there. Temp is around 80-82. We ran activated carbon through
tank to pull meds out and try something a little "harder". We
began using Greenex yesterday. My clown died but he wasn't going to
make it regardless. Now none of my fish are eating. They are all
hiding. I am now running carbon, protein skimmer and UV sterilizer to
pull meds out as I believe Greenex is quite toxic. <<UV won't
take any medications out of the water>> What else can I should I
do. <<probably not much, reflect on what has transpired.
Successful Marine tank keeping requires as much work before we put fish
in the tank as after. >> We are kind of thinking to try to let
the fish fight it off on their own. The shrimps are cleaning them and
salinity is lowered. Please help we are running out of options.
Remember we can't use hosp tank and we have inverts. <<I
don't recall the details - this is an important piece of gear,
perhaps more important than a UV filter>> If this were your tank
given what we can and cannot do, what would you do at this time?
<<wait it out, try to make arrangements for a quarantine system
for future residents>> We have two hippo tangs and one true
Percula left, two cleaner shrimps both working hard) I thought of neon
gobies, but am afraid of getting any new fish.. HELP!!!!!!
<<well, the neon gobies are pretty hardy and may be a good place
for you to get started again, however... you should really consider
carefully how you might squeeze in a quarantine system. This one item
could have saved you much of this heart-ache. Certainly a good idea to
just let things run their course and see how the Greenex works out. You
are quite correct about the toxicity of Greenex, and it probably should
have been avoided. In any case, keep running the carbon, try to
encourage your fish to feed but don't over-do it. Cheers, J --
Greenex...reef-safe? one more quick question. . . what is
about Greenex that makes it so harmful? <The active ingredients are
Malachite Green and Quinine Hydrochloride (a fairly nasty
chemical).> Why do they say on the bottle that it is "reef
safe" if it has done so much harm? <It claims to be
"invertebrate safe", which is a pretty big difference. Many
larger inverts can tolerate the stuff, but much of the smaller life in
reef tanks and many corals will be harmed.> Is there ever a
situation where you would recommend using this stuff? <The best
situation for the use of any medication is in your bare bottom hospital
tank. -Steven Pro> <and adding that the malachite wreaks havoc
with filter feeders and many Octocorals>
Rapid Gill pumping.... Anthony, First off allow me to thank
you for all of the help that you have lent me over the course of the
last few days. Not only was your advice good, but it was delivered
expediently, and in such a manner as to not make me feel like a
complete dummy. Though I have been known to do extremely dumb things,
particularly with my fish tank. Many thanks. <very welcome and thank
you for your patience. I fear sometimes that I am too strict of an
aquarist and with my advice. Indeed, we all learn some hard lessons...
just trying to minimize them <smile>> Anyway here is what I
did. Before I read your last email I transported the tang to a 30
gallon tank I borrowed from a friend; <excellent... and though it
might still seem small to you for a fish this size, it will serve the
purpose admirably!> cleaned it out really well, and then used 30
gallons of water from the main tank to fill the QT. This was on Monday
night. I also treated him with a product called Greenex. Apparently
this is a combination of Malachite Green, and Quinine extract. Everyone
I spoke to said that this is an excellent all purpose antibiotic.
<it has a cure or kill reputation... aggressive but necessary at
times> It appears to have worked. Not only has the excessive gilling
ceased, but his appetite is back, and the Ick (or whatever it may have
been) appears to have receded somewhat. <excellent, and so soon. But
don't relax just yet. Medicated several days after last symptom
wanes if mfg recommendations allow and keep in QT for a minimum of 2
weeks> Will keep him QT'd for some time yet. With fingers
crossed, it appears that he is on the road to recovery. Which is good,
because he has quickly become a favored fish. <yes... a magnificent
fish. You made the right call> My Passer never appeared to become
ill, which is also very good. I will definitely take your advice on the
plastic tub QT setup. I completely overlooked such a simple solution.
<too easy to do <wink>... that's why we all brainstorm and
share ideas> Again thanks for everything. Michael <always
welcome, and thanks for sharing a positive update! Anthony>