Quin Use Trb Fix F

FAQs on Quinine Compounds Use, Trouble, Fixing

Dealing with exceptionally hardy strain of crypt? Impt. notes re Quinines; old Amquel toxicity 11/12/15
Hi Crew,
I've been happily reading your site for several years now and am grateful for all of the information. Ever since ich entered my 170g reef almost two years ago before I learned to properly QT, I've been fighting it with just about every method in the book, including many "reef-safe" snake oils, but also QT with hypo, Chloroquine, and quinine...sometimes keeping the fish in
the DT while removing LR and corals, others removing fish to QT and letting the DT go fallow.
<With you so far>
I've blamed failures on everything from not keeping medication levels high enough, to keeping the QT and DT to close together so that aerosolized crypt could move between the two systems.
<Interesting speculation. More likely resident/residual infestation. Most systems have this/them>
I've also demonstrated through studies in a lab with good equipment that Chloroquine degrades super fast leaving behind an inactive molecule in my tank (I was monitoring by HPLC , and I believe, based on changes in CPQ behavior over a year, that a microbe capable of detoxifying Chloroquine either entered or evolved in my system...more about that another time, but high levels of the degradation do appear to be toxic to Zebrasoma tangs).

I now know that quinine is perfectly stable in my system and that the concentration remains constant after dosing regardless of skimmer or keeping lights on. It clearly wipes out any visible ich on my fish within 24 hours and prevents the return until removed. Unfortunately, as you already know, it dos nothing for the inactive cyst stage, and I find that certain tangs (particularly Zebrasoma) begin to show signs of drug toxicity after about a week (labored breathing, failure to eat, general listlessness) but they recover fully withi8n a day of being moved to a system without quinine.

SO....I still have ich. I just completed a 13 week fallow (no new coral or other additions), my QT and DT are far apart, precautions were taken to heat-sterilize anything that went from one tank to another, etc. I moved a Kole tang with no visible signs of ich from QT to the DT.
<Note the qualifier, "no visible signs">
He had been at high quinine concentration for the previous five days and was allowed an hour in the quinine containing water during the transfer process, just in case there were any random cysts that had just hatched so that the new hatchlings would have time to die from high drug exposure.
About a week later, the first small blotch appeared, looking nothing like ich.
<You should sample, check under a microscope>
Couple more blotches (as opposed to raised sugar grains) appeared here and there until this morning when I clearly saw some raised sugary grains. So, it's back to QT for him, and I'll have quinine in the tank to make sure that anything on him dies before it can re-encyst and live to infect another fish.
Finally to my question: Would you let this DT go fallow for 6 months?
<As long as possible, practical... more likely, with no desired life present, I'd bleach all and restart it>
A year? Or sacrifice your corals, cook your live rock, empty the DT, and go over every component with a hair dryer to make sure not so much as a single drop of water remains anywhere in the general vicinity?
<No; I would not go this far. Just as likely to (re) import Crypt w/ new fishes>
I have also considered periodically placing an ich-resistant fish in an isolation box within the tank in case this strain requires fish hormones to break dormancy. I realize all of this might seem extreme, but I seem to have a real survivor here and the theory of crypt weakening after a year of successive generations seems to either be wrong, or to not apply to this strain.
The good news is that my fish seem to be real survivors....though I did lose many to a bad batch of Amquel plus, which I will write about separately.
<To/for browsers; DO give your polyvinylpyrrolidone solutions (commercial dechloraminators often contain) a "good whiff" and if they smell, toss rather than use them>
I would greatly appreciate any advice here.
Thank you
<I'd have you read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/reefparfaq2.htm
and a few of the linked files above.... for solace, input. I'd strive to "keep balance" in your/fishes favor here; through optimized care: environment and nutrition; use of cleaners.... Bob Fenner>

purple tang with spots after 10 weeks of Chloroquine? 1/12/15
Hi,
I just had my terrifying moment, and have been reading for a year on everything I could about crypt since my original troubles began. I still don't understand this one. I've had my DT fallow for 10 weeks and started returning fish from a QT that has been treated with CP (Fishman chemical) for the last 10 weeks at about 10 mg/L, refreshed once per week, no
carbon, and only ambient lighting (no UV, but I did skim).
Purple tang looked fine, though a bit faded before I netted him. Upon release into the DT, he appeared to have small white bumps, like crypt.
<... Warning here; there are quite a few "causes" of such bumps... some pathogenic, others not. Only way to ascertain for sure is sampling and microscopic examination>
I've shined a bright light on my QT and all of the fish look spot free including other tangs. Is it possible that crypt some how survived on this purple tang, or do purple tangs occasionally break out with bumps when netted and moved?
<More the latter possibility>
He is otherwise looking vibrant and healthy. I transferred a male blue throat trigger with him, who had been one of the
most heavily affected fish by the crypt outbreak....never seen him look so perfect.
Thoughts? Is it back to the qt ASAP for another 10 weeks with a higher dose of cp or different treatment regimen?
<Mmm; will mention I urge 15gm/l... but would not re-treat this fish>
Or should I give him a few days to see the bumps were to an unrelated stressor?
<Nor this. IF anything, I'd sample... as above; if not pH adjusted freshwater dip enroute to replacing the fish in the DT>
Thank you,
JulesR
<Welcome. BobF>

Re: Ich and CP Tx 1/10/15
Happy Friday, Bob!
<And you John>
Surprisingly tangs have been getting along fine. :) They really don't paying to each other, and every once in a while they'll bicker, but nothing to the point of a death match!
<Ah, good; like many Cichlids, when crowded Tangs may get along for a while>
At one point, the sohal would "shake" or spaz as he/she swam and would rub the gill area on a pvc pipe, and then stop where the water returns from the HOB filter. But no fast gilling/breathing. It did that for most of the day, today it seemed a lot more calm and swam normally. No other tang was exhibiting this.
The only fish I am wary of is the 6 line in the same tank, it hovers in one spot in the tank, but will pick at Masago when it's dropped in the tank (i drop very little food into the hospital tanks with the ongoing "ammonia problem" I have; Red Sea test tests 2.0 ppm, and I have been using Prime and two bottles of BioSpira so far. A third bottle on the way)
<Ok>
The purple tang seems to have regained some appetite, and the sohal is the only one in THAT tank not eating.
<Not a problem really>
In the other tank I noticed the Anthias swimming 90 degrees vertically, face up. I thought they were goners but as soon as lights are out, they swim to the bottom and take refuge by the pipes. What gives? When i approach the tank, they are alert and dart to hide and go horizontal. Any ideas, Bob?
<Stress, the medication>
Thanks for being available for the aquatic community!!!
I trust you'll have a great weekend!
<Ah yes; thank you. BobF>
Re: Ich and CP Tx 1/11/15
Bob!!!! Great news, for me at least, :)
<Ok!>
Looks like most fish, especially my favorite sohal, has regained their appetites! Sohal used to only eat Nori, and is back at devouring it again.
So my observations with CP Tx:
1) appetite suppression (hopefully gone by now)
2) slowness, sluggishness in behavior, I wouldn't call it lethargic though. Almost like "fish high"
3) ich appeared during treatment, but most likely ich completing the life cycle during Tx in the fish.
4) accumulation of white film on glass, and a weird smell coming from the tanks.
5) "ammonia spikes"- not sure what to make of this.
<All known effects>
Anyway, I'll update you in hopes that maybe you'll be able to share my experience on WWM so others can learn too.
Thanks Bob!
John
<Thank you for sharing>

Longnose butterfly; CP burn? 3/19/14
Good evening Bob, and crew,
I am in need of advise <advice>. I am treating my fish in a hospital tank for Ich. I had outbreaks years ago, all the fish but a tang pulled thru, no treatment
<Ah, good>
other than frequent water changes and continued good water quality. The tang was treated with copper.
<?>
Over the years I have had only a few fish in my DT and recently started adding fish per your "ok" on my planned additions. Of course this has upset the balance of a lovely aquarium, and three weeks later a couple fish have spots and some distress. I pulled the distressed fish, and I started copper treatment in a hospital tank. Ammonia could not be controlled so I decided to try using Chloroquine phosphate per The Marine Fish Health & Feeding Handbook instructions.
<Very good>
I set up a new 30 gallon tank with mature biological filtration. I am four days into it and all the fish look great and are behaving healthy. All except the Longnose butterfly. The butterfly fish was never in the copper, btw. He has good color, and is eating NLS pellets. The issue is that all along his back where his dorsal spines meet his body is notably swollen, and his scales are standing out in that area, like a localized dropsy. I can not get a good picture of him, sorry. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Victoria
<Mmm, I'd keep an eye on this Forcipiger... and be ready to pull it, possibly do a pH adjusted freshwater dip (SOP on WWM) enroute to returning it to another main/display sans further treatment. CP exposure is more touchy with Butterflies (and Angels, and...). I suspect it is the quinine exposure here that is causing it harm. Bob Fenner>
Re: Longnose butterfly 3/19/14
Dear Bob,
Thank you for the fast response. I think it might be best to pull him out tonight. His caudal fin area is swollen too. Again, thank you so much!
Victoria
<Ah, welcome. BobF>

CP use 2/25/13
I just recently dosed my tank with Chloroquine Phosphate (40mg) per gallon and my puffer went from white to real dark brown. He's still pretty active but is this normal and will he make it through?
<Hopefully so. See WWM re quinine compounds. B>
Thanks again, I think I have used this email for assistance over 200 times within the last 3 years. Thank you so much for your time and availability
;-)

Help! Marine fishes with rapid breathing. Quinine effect likely 5/24/12
Greetings to Bob et al at WWM.
I really have to try writing to you about fun and "happy" things every once in a while! So a short refresher, and maybe Bob and some readers who remember will think, "Is this girl really still doing this?!?" My 220 gallon tank has been with Cryptocaryon irritans since, oh, November of 2010. Yes! I've done a million things (Formaldehyde, Quinine sulfate, Chloroquine phosphate, hyposalinity at 1.008 for up to 18 weeks at a time) and my "main" fishes are still with me...well, maybe not for long.
Anyways, the most recent treatment is that they have been in hyposalinity of 1,008 for the past 4 months, and repeatedly, I will see spots on the Acanthurus leucosternon that are white and raised, and discolored "spots" that are flat on the Pomacanthus imperator, since they have been in hypo, stupid me, have introduced a Amblygobius phalaena and a very voracious, pellet and seaweed eating Labroides dimidiatus. Over the months, no spots on either of the two, but note the recurring "spots" on the Acanthurus leucosternon and Pomacanthus imperator. So my thoughts are coming to the conclusion of, I have a funky strain of something... parasitic in nature, behaviorally Crypt like as I do see the on and off cycles. I've concluded that for some reason, this illness is not being transmitted to the Amblygobius phalaena nor the Cleaner Wrasse, maybe the hyposalinity, but I really need to do something to "break the parasitic cycle". I went and bought a bunch of tanks, so officially I have a fish room now, and they consist of a 75 gallon tank for which I placed the Acanthurus leucosternon and Pomacanthus imperator with a few pieces of dead rock (which I have plenty of), and I placed the Amblygobius phalaena and Labroides dimidiatus in a small 15 gallon tank with a small tub of dead sand and a piece of rock to help the two feel more at home. They are still in hyposalinity at 1.009 today. I added 2.64 grams of Chloroquine diphosphate into the 75 gallon tank (water calculated at 66 gallons) broken up in two doses over 12 hours. But since then, I've noticed rapid breathing in the Acanthurus leucosternon and Pomacanthus imperator.
<Yes; likely the quinine>
I have since done two huge water changes to remove the Chloroquine and since I still had "good" water in my display tank from which they came, I used 90% that water and 10% new water for those water changes. They are still breathing very rapidly. I've done an ammonia level and it was at 0.25 prior to the water change. I've replaced the carbon filters for the Emperor Filter that I'm using for this hospital tank.
Something to note about these fishes prior to the move. They had been eating like champs, with normal behaviors and breathing prior to this move.
As you know and maybe remember, I have always been extremely nervous about taking them out of the display tank because even though they show spots, they were happy and healthy otherwise and now, I may lose these "Ichy" fishes whom are so dear.
Please let me know your thoughts.
<You're doing what I would...>
As always, I truly appreciate your help, and enjoy reading and learning from your wonderful site!
Sincerely,
Jamie Barclay

Was: Re: Stocking list , opinions please? Now: QS failed Crypt treatment 11/14/11
Hello again Crew,
<R>
Bad news, we broke out the champagne too early: the tang suddenly broke out in Ich (visible) again two weeks after I sent you this message (still in QT). I tried a repeat treatment of the Quinine same as last time but at day 5 of this dose she is still covered and scratching/flashing constantly.
I have a nasty suspicion that the quinine has actually not worked at all, and all I have observed in reality is the Theronts leaving the fish to infest the substrate. Because there were no tomites in the water already, being a freshly setup QT tank, there would have been nothing to re-infect her for a week or so until the new tomonts hatched and re-infected her.. I think this may be what has happened.
<Does appear so>
Now at day 5 of the second quinine treatment I'm seeing no change like last time , re-enforcing my theory. I'm really bummed.
<Time to switch to another treatment mode... CP or chelated copper, the last perhaps along w/ reduced SPG>
I've put a UV steriliser on today (36W) to fry the tank a bit before I do a water change and hit with a third 5 day 30mg/L dose of quinine (without UV of course). I've also begun slowly dropping the salinity in case I need to go down that path instead. Just a couple of questions if I may?
<Sure>
Do you think I should:
a. Do a 25% water change, hit with third quinine dose, Lower the salinity to 1.015 (as per CMA) over the next few days?
<Mmm>
b. Do a 25% water change and lower the salinity to 1.015 over the next few days - forget the quinine?
<Am more inclined toward (b) so far...>
c. Do a 25% water change and hit with a dose of quinine again - leave the salinity?
d. Start drawing on some more of my chemical arsenal and try copper and nitromidazole?
<The Copper (chelated product) and lowered SPG are my choice>
Appreciate your help
Cheers,
Rama
<And you your patience, sharing. Cheers, BobF>
Re: Stocking list , opinions please? QS failure, Crypt f's 11/15/11
Hi Bob,
<Rama>
Appreciate your advice/time,
<Welcome>
I thought it was generally advised against to use copper with hyposalinity due to copper being more toxic at lower SPG?
<To extents yes>
I've started lowering the SPG further anyway, but many (e.g. Steven Pro et al) seem to think that 1.012 is a more appropriate level than 1.015, some even advocate as low as 1.008?.
<Yes; my lower limit is 1.010>
I'm currently shooting for the 1.012 as a compromise as I only have the glass bulb hydrometer so accuracy is not pin point
Do you think it would be dangerous to dose quinine or Metronidazole/Praziquantel at the same time as the low SPG?

Really nervous of copper use , my Cu test kit sucks as far as I'm concerned with the colour gradients being all shades of vague copper colours I can barely discern and huge differences between them. I managed to kill the last fish I tried to cure with copper, but this was combined with a temperature spike to 29 degrees C on a particular hot day, so not sure which killed it, Cu, heat , the Ich or most probably the stress of all three at once.

At the moment I'm leaning towards hitting it with another dose of quinine,
<Do please read here... re warning signs, incidents w/ QS, my urgings to use CP instead: http://wetwebmedia.com/QuinTrbFixF.htm
and the linked files above>
Hyposalinity and trying to feed Nori and Mysids soaked with Jungle Internal Parasite Guard (Metronidazole, Praziquantel and salt) and Seachem reef fuel. This Jungle product is directed to add to the water , but I have read that these are only effective if ingested and I have no idea how to dose this stuff for feeding as it is compounded for adding directly to the water
(5g/20L) .
Do you have any knowledge of this product and how I might dose it orally?
<Not enough, no; thankfully marine organisms "drink" their environment (more than fresh)>
(for the fish that is.. not me ;-) )
<Heeee!>
Should I try just adding it to the water?
<Yes I would>
Last thing, I DID feed the fish live brine shrimp, and have read that these are possible carriers for Ich. Any thoughts on this as the cause of re-infection?
<Can be a source... Hence my usual suggestion to soak all in freshwater for several minutes before offering>
Thanks for the continued support ,
Cheers,
Rama
<And you for your further shared intelligence and related experience.
BobF>

Frayed Pectoral Fins, follow up 7/6/11
Hi Bob or WWM crew,
<Ry>
I followed your advice on adding quinine sulfate to my QT in hypo and the dot on my achilles is gone. I do fairly large water changes on the tank, around 40% 2x a week to keep water quality good. The weird thing now though is that the pectoral fins of the achilles seem to be a little frayed.
<This may be due to the QS itself... search WWM re>
Aside from that, he is in tip top shape. I feed him 2-3x a day with mysis soaked in vitamins and Nori.
What do I do about the frayed fins? Do I just keep the water quality good and it will go away or do you suggest I treat with something?
<Move the fish in a few days, to a large, established system. BobF>
Thanks!
Ryan

Re: re: Good morning..... CP poisoning 3/15/11
Hey Bob, regarding Chloroquine Phosphate dosing I went ahead and checked out Ed Noga's book like you suggested. I am experiencing very strange behavior from all 3 of my fish with the 40mg per gallon dosage. My PB tang is breathing so fast I can't even keep track of counting the speed of his breathing rate.
<I'd change out about half the water, stat!>
My flame angel and hippo tang are swimming weird and not eating. None of these fish have any signs of parasites but I am only on my sixth day of treatment (2 doses). My levels seem to be ok and I weighed the CP out with a beam scale that measures grains (and converted milligrams to grains). Noga didn't state much in his book regarding this type of behavior to this compound. Did you ever see this?
<Yes; toxicity>
I don't want to kill these fish and I am frustrated. Should the fish be acting and swimming kind of strange under treatment with CP....or any strong Med for that matter? Your input would be appreciated, thanks.
Jason
<Do this water change now. BobF>
Re: re: Good morning..... CP tox. 3/16/11
Ok.....done. I have charcoal running also. This happens way too much with the quinine compounds. When this happened to my last flame angel he was never the same after that. Always swam sluggish and just always seemed tired. Does this toxicity do permanent damage to my fish or will it heal in time?
<I hope not... Might I ask, are you sure re the volume of water here? That is, are you taking into account the real tank dimensions, sans displacement from other objects? It's quite common for folks to "assume" that the gallonage is about the same as the "model #" (for want of any other descriptor)... Most tanks are surprisingly short of their understood gallonage... hence too easy overdosings. B>
Thanks Bob
Re: re: Good morning..... CP dis use 3/16/11
Yes, when I first bought the tank I used five gallons buckets to fill it bare and came up with 17 gallons.

I only have a small amount of live rock in there and it's bare bottom. So I treated for 16 gallons. I read on reef central to do a double dosage during your first dose

so I can't imagine I overdosed if the fish can withstand a double dose. I hope the toxicity didn't do any permanent damage.
Re: re: Hey Bob 2/22/11
Hey Bob, good morning. I am just following up with you regarding CP. I finally finished my final dose and my ammonia has spiked to 2.0....my fish are all half dead. I think I may have overdosed. I dosed 40mg per gallon but added a little extra by mistake.
<Yikes>
Does this mean my year and a half old cycled tank is going to have to start from square one?
<Not likely. B>
Is this like having a brand new tank without being cycled? I've been adding live bacteria and doing water changes hoping for the best.
Thanks
Re: CP over/re-dosing 3/27/11
Oh, and I forgot to tell you regarding dosing of Chloroquine phosphate.
I discovered through experimentation that the CP does not need to ever be redosed after the first.
<Mmm, I'll have to look. Thought I'd expressed this sufficiently on WWM>
After five days after the second dose my fish would overdose (rapid breathing, erratic swimming, discoloration etc.).
This happened three times in a row with several different rounds of fish.
Now I dosed once for 10 days and fish are great and parasite free...for now, we will see. CP is so new I didn't expect you to know much about it but Dr. Fishman at fishman chemicals said not to do more than one dose because of actual overdosing. Figured id let you know that and it would be beneficial to pass that on.
Cheers
<Thank you for this. B>
Re: re: 3/28/11
Sure anytime. It's amazing how the other two times immediately after the second dose I had an ammonia spike at 2.0....BOTH times. And all of those fish are now dead. So, one dose (at least here in Philadelphia) is enough.
<Acknowledged. B>

Re: Hey crew... QS, more Crypt! 1/16/11
Hey Bob, another quick question for you. I just dosed my QT tank with quinine sulfate for ich and the amount of spots went from just a few to the whole body of my fish being covered.
<Hooo!>
The parasite has increased ten fold. These fish have been in QT for almost two weeks before any spots showed up. I did some research and couldn't find any situation like mine. Did you ever hear of this? Any ideas?
<Increase the dosage!>
Thank you
<Welcome! Bob Fenner>
Re: Hey crew 1/17/11
Ok.....so it doesn't get worse before it gets better?
<If I understand you, no... such parasitic infestations should only decrease with applications of medications placed to destroy their off-host intermediate stages in place. B

Re: re: Flame Angel lump, QS... overdose? 11/28/10
Hey everyone. I took Bob's advice and treated with quinine sulfate and I am having trouble understanding how this Med is gentler and safer than copper and other harsh chemicals. The reason for my lack of understanding is simply because of the way the fish look and act now after treatment.
My flame angel is almost getting completely taken away by the current when before it barely moved him. He is swimming weird and has cloudy eyes and fins. Looks to me like he is going to die.
<Change some water, now! How much did you add... to what calculated volume of water?>
I don't understand how anyone thinks this Med is less harsh than others. Unless, of course, this is normal behavior and physical appearance. I have a powder brown tang and a Dottyback also in the same tank and they don't look any better. I followed the directions to the letter but it fails to mention the amount of days to be treated. It says 1/4 teaspoon per ten gallons every 24 hours with 25 percent water change before each treatment. It says nothing about how many days to continue this for. So I just treated for five days since there are no visible spots on my fish any longer. If I treated for any longer, I feel as though my angel will die. Does any of this behavior and trauma sound normal to you with the treatment of quinine sulfate?
<It does not>
Checking over the forums I found no one having the same exact issues....I'm concerned.
Thanks again everyone and happy holidays!
<Read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/QuinDosingF.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>
Re: re: Flame Angel lump 11/28/10
Shall I stop treatment?

I dosed one quarter teaspoon
<... meaningless w/o knowing the percent composition. Read where you were directed>
per ten gallons for four days straight with 25 percent water change before each treatment and its a 20gal tank.
<... calculate how many actual gallons... 231 cubic inches per>
Did I kill my fish?
<? Not yet evidently. B>
Thanks
Re: Flame Angel lump 11/29/10
Hey Bob, just wanted to touch base and let you know that my fish are swimming normal again.
<Ah, good>
They're not 100% back to normal but definitely better. I hope they didn't get poisoned from the QS. Do you think five days was substantial enough to eradicate the Ich?
<Could well be>
I'm going to leave them in
QT for another week to be safe.
Thanks again for your help
<Thank you for this update. BobF>
Re: re: Flame Angel lump
And thank you for your assistance on this matter.
<Certainly welcome. B>

Acanthurus coeruleus with skin issues? 6/15/10
Greetings to all at WWM!
<Howsit Jamie?>
I've been treating my FOWLR display tank with Chloroquine phosphate since April 30th for my quinine resistant strain of C. irritans. The fishes have all appeared to tolerate this medication very well and no more ich after one week of Chloroquine.
<Yay!>
I've continued this treatment as I learned from Dr. Fishman that this medication can be dosed continuously in the tank as a preventative for further reinfection.
<Mmm, I would not do this... with CP or other med.>
My question is in regards to the Atlantic Blue tang, who shows these "blotches" only at certain times when his skin turns a darker color.
<Just "stress"... your pic shows a very nice specimen>
They are not raised or fuzzy. Behaviorally, he is a little more isolative, and appetite has been decreased. One of his eyes had some cloudiness but this seems to come and go.
I am wondering if this is due to Chloroquine sensitivity, or is this a secondary infection.
<Much more the former likely>
My tank parameters: ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 5, pH 8.2. He is the only fish showing this.
Thank you for your time and providing this wonderful site to educate and enlighten!!!
Jamie
<Thank you for sharing! BobF>

Re: Acanthurus coeruleus with skin issues? and CP f' 6/16/10
Hello Bob!!!
Thanks for your reply!
I'm sure you don't remember as you get thousands of e-mails, but you have a "baby" picture of him when he was the size of a silver dollar - when I sent a picture of him with "black dots" where the ich fell of from the original
quinine sulfate treatment! He has grown to be four inches big now, bigger than my Powder Blue tang.
<Neat!>
I don't think he would still be with me if it was not for your guidance and your web site!
Thank You Thank You Thank You!
Jamie
PS: The Chloroquine phosphate treatment will end in six weeks as I was wanting to make sure that I have three months with no signs of C. irritans before stopping. I believe that I got the quinine resistant strain by stopping too soon.

Re: Acanthurus coeruleus with skin issues? 6/16/10
Sorry to go on and on... BUT
How do you recommend I "stop" the treatment?
<Just stop adding the material>
Would you...
1. Just start routine weekly water changes of 15-20%
<Oh yes>
2. Turn on the skimmer

3. Add carbon
4. All of the above
5. Do nothing, the Chloroquine will "self destruct" after five seconds...
:)
Jamie
<Oh! It already has if you haven't been re-adding it. B>

Re: Acanthurus coeruleus with skin issues? 6/16/10
G-day Bob,
Just for future reference...
I know that we dose Chloroquine at 40 mg per gallon. I've read that you "re dose" every 7-10 days, but as I was waiting for my treatment, I've done some additional reading and learned that Chloroquine "is very stable in solution"
and I've spoken with Dr. Fishman regarding this and he shared that you don't have to re dose. At one point, I had 22.8 grams total in my 190 gallons of water which is three times the normal treatment dose and that was when all
my fishes appetite decreased. So...I guess in a round about way, if I ever need to treat the fishes for crypt, how would I dose the Chloroquine to begin with, would I re dose and if so, how often, and for how long?
Thanks a Million!
Jamie
<Thank you for this valuable input. Am going to be "splitting up" the Quinine cpd. FAQs today likely. B>

Fin damage from quinine sulfate, stress, or secondary bacterial infection? -- 3/14/10
Greetings to Bob and the Crew at WWM,
<Jamie>
Hope that all is going well with you.
<Fair>
I am currently using quinine sulfate on my Powder Blue Tang, Atlantic Blue Tang, and Kole Tang for C. irritans that has been haunting them since November last year. I am in the middle of the second treatment as the ich returned several days after the first treatment due to bad methodology on my part. Everyone is clear of ich spots and behaviors have been normal with activity and eating habits. My question concerns my Kole Tang, who did not tolerate the quinine as well as the others. With the initial treatment, his skin became blotchy and his pectoral fins started to "disintegrate" but then his skin improved within three days of finishing the 7 day treatment and daily water changes. I am in day 4 of the second treatment, he did not have the blotchy skin reaction as he did the first round, and his pectoral fins are not getting worse but have been like this (in the pictures) for 5 days now. I am wondering if this is a secondary bacterial infection or is it just taking the fins longer to heal?
<Looks to me to be more of damage from exposure to simple "poor water quality". Should/will heal in time w/ improved conditions>
Interesting observation to share on quinine sulfate and peppermint shrimp.
Peppermint shrimp tolerated the quinine sulfate well, until he molted. He died shortly after that.
Another interesting point I learned from Dr. Aukes is that quinine sulfate is an alkaloid
<And the sulfate radical can lower pH substantially...>
and the fishes sense this through their lateral lines. They don't like it and literally tries to swim away from it when I add it to the water. I also lost a couple of fish because they jumped out of the tank during treatment, so I would recommend that anyone treating their fishes with quinine to cover their tanks tightly. The fish also show other stress behaviors by eating less, being more irritable or grumpy, and showing stress coloration (my juvenile Atlantic Blue is normally yellow when he is happy and brown when he is mad, he is consistently darker with quinine treatment, but changes back to yellow when treatment ends.) The quinine also seem to decrease the fishes' slime coat which makes the scratch marks clearer if the fish has done a lot of flashing.
I hope the lessons I have learned will help others in the future.
Thank you,
Jamie Barclay
<Me too. Thank you for this valuable input/sharing. BobF>

Re: Fin damage from quinine sulfate, stress, or secondary bacterial infection? 3/15/10
Bob, thanks so much!
I hope that in a few weeks I can share good news that we are finally finished with the ich.
For all my future acquisitions: Quarantine Quarantine Quarantine!
Take care!
Jamie
<Thanks! BobF>

26/02/10 Stumped.... Forcipiger hlth., troubleshooting
Hi everyone.
<Hi Jay>
I am quite confused about medicating a Long nose Butterfly.
<Ok>
I recently treated my long nose with Quinine Sulfate for Ich and after about three weeks it's finally gone.
<In Quarantine? Or in-tank? If you did this in tank, then the Crypt will not be gone>
From a previous email one of the representatives from WWM recommended that I treat with a product called PraziPro because my Butterfly was flashing (he said, based on what I told him, he probably has gill flukes).
<Ok>
I started treating with the Prazi and ever since then my BF has increased rapid gill movement and twitches a lot.
<Mmmm>
If in fact he did have flukes, I thought the Prazi was supposed to help kill them.....why are they getting worse?
<Are they flukes? If you remove the fish and freshwater dip him, you might see one or both of two things that would give you a better idea: If he stops flashing afterwards, then it is probably flukes. If you can see specks on the base of the dip container (usually white, so a dark dip container might be prudent), then they also could be flukes. Removal of these and placed under a cheap microscope will confirm. If neither of these happen, then it is probably not flukes>.
He has been clear of spots for over two weeks
<Could have just cycled off... the fish may still be infested with Crypt.. in the gills, thus the heavy breathing & flashing>
and I proceeded with the full treatment recommended for QS. Please help!
<Another possibility here... medication in the water can/ does irritate fishes, to the point where they exhibit 'flashing' behaviour. You might find that with the removal of the medication and improved water quality this will ease off>.
Thank you folks
<No problem, Simon>

BF dis., Quinine use f' 2/23/2010
Hey Crew.....
I value you each and every one of your opinions but I would like Bob's advice on this one if at all possible. I just recently upgraded from a 10g QT to a 20g long QT. I have a small 2.5 inch Heniochus and a 3" Raccoon
(Chaetodon Lunula).

I have treated my Heni for ten days with Quinine Sulfate. Then added the Raccoon after the full ten day treatment and a few additional days (for a total of about two weeks later). Bodies and fins are clear of spots and there are no visible symptoms of a parasite (rapid breathing, flashing, etc.). My concern here is that my Heniochus has a very slight cloudy glaze over his eyes and fins.
<Likely "just stress" from the treatment... i.e., not parasitic>
I do want to say that even when he had velvet from the start his fins were never cloudy like this. After two weeks of being treated with QS he has developed this (without any spots or symptoms). Is this normal?
<Yes>
Shall I treat with something else? Or will this go away eventually?
<No and yes>
I have called National Fish Pharm. and when I spoke with the Doctor, he said it could be from the treatment of QS.
<Yes; this is so>
There isn't much info regarding this med in your forums or at all on the WWW. Bob, what do you think, I would like your opinion?
Thanks so much
<Welcome. BobF>

re: Hey Crew..... BF exp. Quinine 2/24/10
Thanks a lot for the speedy reply and you are indeed the only one to give me a solid answer on this subject.
Thanks again
<Welcome. BobF>

Urgent Quarantine... Quinine f' 1/24/09 Hello Crew, <Kayla> A few days ago, I placed my marine fish in quarantine because a few were displaying signs of ich. I have a Valentini puffer, six-line wrasse, "powder brown"/white-cheek tang, hippo tang, and two percula clowns. After much research, I decided to perform a freshwater dip with formalin/malachite green and place into a 30 gallon quarantine with hyposalinity (1.010) and 10 mg/L of Chloroquine phosphate. <Okay> The first day went fine, but the second day the water became quite cloudy. I have been testing the water qualities and have 0 ppm of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate, with a pH of 8.3. Today, I found the wrasse laying on the tank bottom respirating very rapidly. Again, the ammonia (etc.) levels were all in check. A few hours later, the powder brown was doing the same thing, with very rapid respiration. So, I immediately did a 50% water change (with Chloroquine), but then decided to put in a carbon filter in case the Chloroquine was the cause of their problems. <Good moves... I'd also add more aeration> I fear I will lose these guys. I am not sure what could be wrong; do you have any ideas? <Mmm... some sort of proliferation of microbes... perhaps a chemical interaction with the water, and?> Have you had experience with Chloroquine causing this? Do you have any suggestions of what I can do quickly to save them? <Not quickly, no. But doing what you have... water changes, adding carbon... should... and I would look instead to restoring near NSW Spg and using a copper cpd. here... chelated...> I cannot move them back into the display tank very fast since the specific gravity is significantly better. Thanks in advance for your advice, Kayla <Thank you for sharing. Bob Fenner>

FAQ on Quinine Compounds 8/8/07 This is just some info, since I just used some of this medication, and what I got to experience, if it helps anyone, good. I read all of the Quinine Compound FAQ, there was a lot of negative info on Quinine Hydrochloride. I used Quinine Sulfate, recommended by National Fish Pharmacy, which was very effective on my ich problem. It is not toxic, apparently, to hermit crabs, which I suppose are resilient little creatures, but it is very toxic to other invertebrates! I had 6 turbo snails in the tank (or so I thought) which I removed and placed in my 20 gallon, but apparently I had 8, and within a half hour of adding the Quinine Sulfate, the remaining two snails were belly up on the bottom. It isn't an instant killer, because they were fine after I quickly snatched them out and put them in the other tank. Anyway, I just wrote this to tell about a specific experience. I can see where it can get confusing, i.e. Copper = Good for fish, bad for inverts & sharks; Quinine Hydrochloride = bad for fish and inverts and most likely sharks; Quinine Sulfate = good for fish and sharks, bad for inverts. Oh, and from experience past, Kent Marine RXP = safe for fish and inverts, also safe for ich. DOES NOT WORK. :) Thanks again, gentlemen & ladies... Thomas <Thank you for this input Tom. BobF>

- Greenex Strikes Again - Hello Crew, I have another question my tank had caught ich and the guy at my LFS told me to use Greenex so I did. Now all the LFS are telling me to throw away all my sand and recycle my tank. The Greenex worked alright, done a great job of killing ich, but it took my fishes, corals, and invertebrates too.
<Doesn't sound like a good cure to me... I would fire the fish store that gave you this advice [to use the Greenex on your tank].>
Sigh... of all means I don't want to have to recycle my tank, so I wanted to make sure about what you all think before I take action. <You must re-cycle the tank at this point, but you probably don't need to throw out your sand... run some activated carbon for about a week or two and you should be good to go.> Thanks, Chris <Cheers, J -- >

I dosed it with Greenex Thanks a lot.....btw, my tank came down with ich! I dosed it with Greenex, and all the fish died the next day. <Argghhh, I hate this product... not uncommon result> My tank got milky white and I did a 50% water change. The cloudiness continued for several day and is now dying down. I know I shouldn't have but I decided to add another clarkii for the anemone, so far so good. It's been 5 days and the clarkii seems OK. He took to the anemone in about 1hour! He now sleeps inside it and it closes around him like covers (really kewl). BTW all my corals lived through the medication just fish casualties. Thanks for the tip on the sponge for bubbles I know I need to be skimming, but I couldn't stand all the bubbles. <Maybe relocate it to a sump?> I have a lot of brown algae on the back glass would it hurt to leave it growing or should I scrape it? <If it bugs you, scrape away... should turn green with time, improving conditions> Hey thanks again for caring so much about the hobby by taking your time with all these questions. Much thanks, Joe >> <Be chatting. Bob Fenner>

Greenex and UV? Hi Bob- I am currently treating my 12 gallon marine tank (fish/live rock/few inverts) with the product 'Greenex' by Aquatronics, for ich which developed on a new fish. This product had failed me once in the past, but I caught the ich within hours of first appearance this time and decided to give it another shot. Surprisingly, the ich was off the new coral beauty the very next day...and I am continuing treatment. my question: Is it safe to use my UV filter while using the 'Greenex' product? <Yes... that is, the UV does not affect the type of copper and formalin mix which is Greenex...> I turned it off before treating in fear of a poor reaction, but would like to use it if possible. Unfortunately, the box mentions nothing regarding the issue and I have been unable to acquire any company contact info for Aquatronics. Your help is appreciated. Garin <The usual warning here re this product, apparent "disappearance" of ich... the former is rather toxic, has little safety/efficacy margin... the latter does just "cycle off" initially until developing multi-generational stages in a system... Please read through the FAQs on "Marine Ich", and the MANY associated FAQs and article files to "Marine Parasitic Disease" on our site: www.WetWebMedia.com... and be prepared to enforce other treatment... at least the environmental manipulation, vitamin prep. and cleaner ideas gone over on WWM. Bob Fenner>
Re: Greenex and UV? Thanks Bob- I have read through nearly all your FAQ's regarding Ich and the sort...very helpful! I will begin the environmental manipulation, since I lost my electric scallop to the Greenex anyways. Hopefully the Emerald and Scarlet crabs will pull through the changes. <Me too... and please do write, express your concerns re "labeling" to the fine folks at the manufacturer (Aquatronics)...> I will also try a neon goby as a cleaner, but fear the trigger will have him for lunch. <Surprisingly, they don't eat them at once... recognizing Gobiosoma as allies...?> Regarding nutrition...currently I have a 3 fish: a Picasso trigger and a valentini Toby/puffer (each about an inch long), and my new coral beauty angel. What food/brand would you recommend for the best nutrition (whether it be frozen, flake, or a combination)...whatever would be best? <Please see the "Foods/Feeding/Nutrition" section on the Marine Index on our site: www.WetWebMedia.com> The angel doesn't seem too interested in the 'brine shrimp plus' flake or the frozen blood worms the others love. I thought I might try growing some Caulerpa algae in the tank for him, since he ate all my hair algae. <Add more live rock...> I will beat this ICH!! Thanks again, Garin <Good attitude. Bob Fenner>

Greenex use The guy at the fish store says that he uses Greenex to treat Ick in a system with live rock and sand...I thought I remembered your website said that Greenex wasn't good.. when I got home I checked and it said that it killed some fish...the bottle states that it is safe for all fish, invert... and biological systems.. What is the deal?? Cheryl <Unless the formula has changed, Greenex is not non-toxic... too dangerous, responsible for many losses... Post this msg. to the listservs for others opinions, experiences. Bob Fenner>

Question about a disease My cowfish is swimming in circles and around its own center horizontally. It happened after I treated it with "Greenex" (Malachite Green and Quinine Hydrochloride) anti-protozoan agent against a marine Ick for five days every other day. On the box of the medication, it says that it prevents exactly the same conditions as the fish acquired afterwards: scratching and darting. The fish is so disoriented that it cannot eat pieces of octopus I feed it. What should I do now? <Change water, run activated carbon in your filter flow path, lower specific gravity, toss this toxic "medication" in the trash, use the search feature (Google) on the wetwebmedia.com site and seek the commiseration of other aquarists on the chatforum: http://talk.wetwebfotos.com/ Otherwise, be patient and hopeful. Bob Fenner>

Another Greenex Burial Hi bob, I have a 38 gallon Berlin system reef tank. I recently used Greenex, malachite green and quinine HCl, to treat a tang that had white spots. The first two days of the treatment were fine, I kept the filters running without the carbon, turned off the protein skimmer, and continued use of Kalkwasser solution, and reef solution. Then on the final day of treatment, I decided to take out the filter block from one of my filters because I had notice that it had been dyed blue, and I forgot to shake the bottle of Greenex before adding it to the tank. After about two hours one of my Foxface started heavy gilling at the bottom of the tank, 10 minutes later it had gone from yellow to flush white started swimming upside down, did a vertical loop and flopped dead on the live rock. My second Foxface also succumbed despite an emergency water change, putting carbon back in the filter, and turning on the protein skimmer. My tang and clownfish were noticeably effected for 3 or 4 days but have now come back to normal, and my blenny never seemed bothered. Was all this a result of not shaking the bloody bottle of Greenex? Thanks for help <More of just using this "medication"... the filter was removing a modicum of the malachite and formalin (the ingredients) lessening their toxifiying your fish... removing the filtrant hastened the effect. Bob Fenner, who is glad to read of your other fishes revival> sincerely Ben

Greenex WWM Team, I was reading through your Daily Q&A and read a post where a user had his tanked wiped out the day after he added Greenex and wanted to let you guys know that this exact thing happened to me about 6 months ago. I had a couple of fish sick with ICK and cloudy eye my pet shop recommended Greenex since I had some invertebrates, well after dosing my 180 gallon tank with 180 drops of Greenex the following day EVERYTHING was dead. I don't know what they put in that stuff but it had wiped out my tank just like it wiped out his, needless to say I've learned my lesson but paid a hefty price tag for it.

Greenex I have a 50 gallon show tank with a Kole tang, Spanish wrasse, a clown, a multicolor sea urchin, 2 damsels, 2 fire gobies, and a flame angle. My clown got Ick a few days after I got him. <That is why we always recommend any and all additions get a four week quarantine period.> My friend that owns the pet store I bought it from recommended Greenex. I had had problems with my fish dying after application before but was convinced that it was my tank because it was still new (about 3 months old). <It could also have been the disease itself that killed the fish, not the treatment.> My friend convinced me of it, but I took his advice because it worked on his fish. I made sure this time to check my water before application, every thing was perfect. I applied it as recommended, 1 drop per gallon. The next day the wrasse, tang, urchin, clown, angel, and one goby was dead along with one of my sand sifting stars. <Wow!> Is it just me or is this stuff killing my fish? <I have had bad experience with this product on invertebrates, so I would believe it is possible that your urchin and starfish was effected, but too many other variables to say for certain the medication killed the fish. The speed of the deaths does lend credence to your suspicions, but it is also possible the clownfish was infected with Amyloodinium and Cryptocaryon. Amyloodinium is harder to see and may have spread unnoticed. A quarantine/hospital tank is a must. Please see www.WetWebMedia.com regarding set up and proper use.> I mean none of these fish were sick. I have had most of them for almost 6 months and no problems, no signs of being sick and all of a sudden mass die off! I checked my tank again every thing was fine. It seems every time I add this stuff to my tank all my sensitive fish (expensive fish) die! <See, I would see the problem as every time you add a unquarantined fish, it becomes sick in your tank, infects everyone, you then treat the whole tank, and you experience deaths.> Is it just me or can it be the Greenex? <It is possible, but you have other forces at work here. -Steven Pro>

Treating Marine Parasites <<JasonC here, Bob is off diving>> Mr. Fenner, sorry to bother you again, but.... The symptoms on my fish were getting worse (ich and marine velvet) so we got a skimmer, but then started using Rally and Kick Ich by Ruby Reef to try to save fish and had to turn skimmer off. I ended up losing my Gold rim tang, Heniochus, and true Percula. Obviously these meds didn't work. I know you said to get Alkalinity right and keep water quality excellent, lower salinity slowly) and raise temp. I did these as well, Water is great, salinity is at 1.019 normally it is at 1.022 0r around there. Temp is around 80-82. We ran activated carbon through tank to pull meds out and try something a little "harder". We began using Greenex yesterday. My clown died but he wasn't going to make it regardless. Now none of my fish are eating. They are all hiding. I am now running carbon, protein skimmer and UV sterilizer to pull meds out as I believe Greenex is quite toxic. <<UV won't take any medications out of the water>> What else can I should I do. <<probably not much, reflect on what has transpired. Successful Marine tank keeping requires as much work before we put fish in the tank as after. >> We are kind of thinking to try to let the fish fight it off on their own. The shrimps are cleaning them and salinity is lowered. Please help we are running out of options. Remember we can't use hosp tank and we have inverts. <> If this were your tank given what we can and cannot do, what would you do at this time? <<wait it out, try to make arrangements for a quarantine system for future residents>> We have two hippo tangs and one true Percula left, two cleaner shrimps both working hard) I thought of neon gobies, but am afraid of getting any new fish.. HELP!!!!!! <<well, the neon gobies are pretty hardy and may be a good place for you to get started again, however... you should really consider carefully how you might squeeze in a quarantine system. This one item could have saved you much of this heart-ache. Certainly a good idea to just let things run their course and see how the Greenex works out. You are quite correct about the toxicity of Greenex, and it probably should have been avoided. In any case, keep running the carbon, try to encourage your fish to feed but don't over-do it. Cheers, J -- >>

Greenex...reef-safe? one more quick question. . . what is about Greenex that makes it so harmful? <The active ingredients are Malachite Green and Quinine Hydrochloride (a fairly nasty chemical).> Why do they say on the bottle that it is "reef safe" if it has done so much harm? <It claims to be "invertebrate safe", which is a pretty big difference. Many larger inverts can tolerate the stuff, but much of the smaller life in reef tanks and many corals will be harmed.> Is there ever a situation where you would recommend using this stuff? <The best situation for the use of any medication is in your bare bottom hospital tank. -Steven Pro> <and adding that the malachite wreaks havoc with filter feeders and many Octocorals>

Rapid Gill pumping.... Anthony, First off allow me to thank you for all of the help that you have lent me over the course of the last few days. Not only was your advice good, but it was delivered expediently, and in such a manner as to not make me feel like a complete dummy. Though I have been known to do extremely dumb things, particularly with my fish tank. Many thanks. <very welcome and thank you for your patience. I fear sometimes that I am too strict of an aquarist and with my advice. Indeed, we all learn some hard lessons... just trying to minimize them <smile>> Anyway here is what I did. Before I read your last email I transported the tang to a 30 gallon tank I borrowed from a friend; <excellent... and though it might still seem small to you for a fish this size, it will serve the purpose admirably!> cleaned it out really well, and then used 30 gallons of water from the main tank to fill the QT. This was on Monday night. I also treated him with a product called Greenex. Apparently this is a combination of Malachite Green, and Quinine extract. Everyone I spoke to said that this is an excellent all purpose antibiotic. <it has a cure or kill reputation... aggressive but necessary at times> It appears to have worked. Not only has the excessive gilling ceased, but his appetite is back, and the Ick (or whatever it may have been) appears to have receded somewhat. <excellent, and so soon. But don't relax just yet. Medicated several days after last symptom wanes if mfg recommendations allow and keep in QT for a minimum of 2 weeks> Will keep him QT'd for some time yet. With fingers crossed, it appears that he is on the road to recovery. Which is good, because he has quickly become a favored fish. <yes... a magnificent fish. You made the right call> My Passer never appeared to become ill, which is also very good. I will definitely take your advice on the plastic tub QT setup. I completely overlooked such a simple solution. <too easy to do <wink>... that's why we all brainstorm and share ideas> Again thanks for everything. Michael <always welcome, and thanks for sharing a positive update! Anthony>

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