Re: other writer's comment on disappearance of Crypt in the tank with time 01/21/2008
Hi there!
<Hello>
Several days ago a FAQ was submitted about Ich "disappearing" in a tank if there had been no cases within a certain time period. They could not remember what article it was, but I think I may have found the reference.
<Ahh>
I have recently been battling Crypt on my Purple Tang, and so had also been researching the disease. I think the article "Marine "Ich"" on this page "http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/marineich.html
" is what the writer remembers. The text in it reads:
<"Burgess and Matthews (1994) were attempting to maintain a viable population of C. irritans which could be used in later studies.
To maintain the parasite populations, they needed host fish in order for the trophonts to feed and continue the life cycle. Each host fish was only used once in a process of serial transition such that none of the hosts would die or develop an immunity. While the procedure worked very well and enabled them to maintain populations for some time, the viability of the populations decreased with time and none of the 7 isolates they used survived more than 34 cycles, around 10 to 11 months. They suggest this is due to senescence and aging in cell lines is well recognised in Ciliophora.
The presence of aging cell lines in C. irritans suggests that an aquarium that has been running for longer than 12 months without any additions is unlikely to have any surviving "Ich" parasites, yet another exception to "Ich" always being present.
Whilst "Ich" may be present in some aquaria, it is certainly not present in all aquaria. Through careful quarantining and treatment, it is very much possible to establish and maintain an "Ich" free aquarium.">
I hope you find this article reference useful...I know I have learned more recently about Cryptocaryon than I ever thought I would. My Purple Tang seems to have beaten Ich using the product Ich Attack in my display tank - I will report back on the long-term results of my treatment in another month. Before you say "You read our information and still treated your display tank!!!", I will provide you with a short history of the treatment. I admit I was loath to dismantle my tank to catch my fish, as I did not have a ready quarantine tank of the right size. I didn't think a Purple Tang, a Six-line Wrasse, and a Yellow Watchman goby would QT well in a 13-gallon acrylic tank (which is what I have) for the duration, so I was looking at using a 18- gallon Rubbermaid tub - would this have been big enough? After reading as much about it as I could, my LFS persuaded me to try the treatment he has several times successfully used on various tanks to treat Ich, as has another one of his customers (who has also successfully used it on 3 different tanks). So, somewhat against my original inclination, I decided I would try the medication - and if it didn't show results or the tang became worse, I would do the QT. My tang started out with ~12 spots that I could see, but none of the other symptoms often reported. I also began feeding him the New Spectrum Anti-parasitic Pellets exclusively, which he ate every 3-5 hours as if he hadn't been fed in months. After 8 days I doubled the treatment per the directions from Novalek to a full dose every 12 hours...and at the end of the second week my tang seems to be free of the Crypt spores for 3 days. I did not run my skimmer during this treatment, but I did run a Magnum HOT filter with a micron cartridge.
As I said, I will report on my Tang - I figure waiting 8 weeks before getting any additional fish is only prudent - and if the Ich returns, I will report and also be doing the QT treatment.
I apologize for the length of the email - I always appreciate the tremendous information your website provides, and hope that I can successfully report on the use of Ich Attack to other aquarists.
Thanks, Kerstin
<Thank you for sharing. Bob Fenner>

Crypt conundrum... treatment or stasis  – 1/04/08
Hi Bob,
<Nancy>
Once again, thanks for your speedy reply. I was hoping you can help me out again with another issue. Sorry in advance for being so lengthy. Your eyes must get as tired as ours do from reading your website. :-)
<I wear glasses... now>
I have been reading about ich on your website for sometime now, and have decided that I need to let my 90 gallon go fallow while I am waiting for my new 215 gallon from Oceanic (only some of my fish show signs of having a mild case of ich - a few specs on the fins, rubbing against objects, I had a Regal tang that infected the tank
<Very common>
and showed several visible spots all over, but I recently gave her away to someone who would treat her as I was afraid to treat with copper then... ro!). I have been running UV sterilizers to keep the ich under control. I have already torn down the 90 gallon, removed all the fish, and moved the 90 gallon away from the wall where the new tank will go. I now have an invert only tank running in the middle of my living room and 3 other fish tanks throughout the house.
<Pretty soon... glassing in the front door and filling the whole house with water!>
I have also placed in the 90 gallon all the liverock acquired from my other tanks that I am going to use in the new tank. I don't want to place ich infested liverock in the new tank. And I also don't want to rely on UV sterilizers anymore as a way to keep ich under control.
<You are correct>
After reading up on your website, I've decided that I want to treat with Cupramine for 2 or 3 weeks in a couple of 10 gallon tanks with daily partial water changes (while, of course, testing copper levels). I also have copper sensitive fish and thought a 1/2 dose would work.
<Mmm, no... only a physiological dose/concentration is of use here... less than 0.15 ppm free Copper or its equivalent will only poison your fishes>
I've read on your site about an individual's Coral Beauty dying right away with Cupramine treatment - do you suppose the dose was too high or ammonia did him in?
<Could be either, neither, both>
Is it necessary to treat all the fish (even ones that don't show signs)?
<Yes... all are potential reservoirs...>
After all, they all reside in the same tank (currently, the 58 gallon, and quite peacefully I might add). I was wondering if running a 6 watt UV sterilizer in a 10 gallon tank (no substrate) with 50% water changes daily for 2 weeks would be a better solution for the sensitive fish and fish with no symptoms?
<Mmm, sort of a defining line of decision here for you... to go with an attempt at eradication of the protozoan, or settle on a balance of hosts, parasites...>
(This is how I have acclimated my new fish successfully, except it didn't work very well with the Regal Tang
- I call this my sterilization tank). Please advise me how you would treat each fish.
<All treated or non-treated...>
I'm sorry my fish list is so long, but I do greatly appreciate your help. The following is a list of my fish and whether or not they show any signs of ich:
- Yellow Tail Damsel medium (none)
- False Percula Clown medium (none)
- False Percula Clown small (none)
- Six Line Wrasse medium (none)
- Six Line Wrasse small (none)
- Royal Gramma medium (few visible spots on fins, rubs against rock)
- Orchid Dottyback medium (no visible spots, rubs against rock)
- Coral Beauty medium (I think I saw her scratch one time and might have seen a spot or two on her)
- Yellow Tang small (few visible spots on fins, scratched only  once or twice recently)
- Sailfin Tang small (few visible spots on fins, scratched only once or twice recently)
- Flame Hawkfish (none)
- Long Nose Hawkfish (none)
- Pajama Cardinal medium (few visible spots on fin, no scratching)
The 3 bullies I had to put in a different tank became severely infected (an ammonia test showed .5ppm most likely from a dirty tank). I immediately isolated and sterilized these guys for 2 weeks. I had to put them in another tank after treatment because I needed the UV sterilizer for my 40 gallon Goby tank (a whole new story - maybe I'll write again when I'm ready to attack that issue). They are as follows:
- Atlantic Blue Tang small (completely covered with ich before sterilization, now only few visible spots on fins and occasionally scratches)
- Cherub Pigmy Angel medium (several visible spots on tail before sterilization, now damaged fins and tail; most likely from fighting with Dottyback)
- Magenta Dottyback large (few visible spots of ich and some bacterial infection on bottom fins before sterilization, now no visible spots, some bacterial infection, and skin is mottled - any ideas?)
<Likely the movement, stress...>
Once again, thanks in advance for your help. And my fish appreciate it too.
Nancy
<I'd read a bit more at this point... Only you can decide which path you will take here... It seems you are leaning toward the "balanced" infestation route... By bolstering the immune responses of your fish stock (good feeding/nutrition, I strongly suggest the Spectrum line), and maintaining otherwise optimized, stable conditions, you should be able to keep what you list. Bob Fenner>

Parasite Panic... reading  12/5/07
Hi guys, I recently suffered a wipe out after adding a Royal Gramma and Flame Hawkfish to my established 60 gallon FO tank. I had not added fish in over one year so I tried to be careful. Freshwater dip and 3 weeks in QT (probably should have been longer) All fish thrived for about one week then mysterious death of Heniochus soon to be followed by the rest of the fish over 3 days. It wasn't until the last fish, the Hawkfish, then I noticed white spots. I broke the system down and bleached everything, rinsed, allowed to dry, then ran only freshwater in the system for 2 days prior to adding salt. I purchased two small Heniochus
<Need more room than this...>
and dipped them for about five minutes prior to addition. After one week fish with ick or velvet. I decided to treat the display tank, whether right or wrong with Cupramine.
<... a poor idea>
Larger white spots disappeared after two days an I thought I was in the clear only to now see a covering of fine white spots. As I have already treated the tank, do I have any other
options to save these fish?
<A few...>
Should I dip then again and for longer. I have a feeling I might be starting over again. Thanks in advance for any suggestions you might offer.
<... Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
The sections on Parasitic systems, Crypt... Bob Fenner>

Re: Ich... Crypt 12/07/2007
Hey Bob
<Todd>
I have read all that stuff and I'm doing what your site says, that's why I'm confused.
<...?>
You said I could do more, besides UV, parasite control cleaners and treating everything I get with copper or some other med, what else is there for ich?
<The use of quinine cpd.s., adjuncts to dips...>
When I get the fish I dip in meth blue and ph adjusted freshwater dip,
<I would add Formalin here>
then quarantine for one month (no treatments unless I see something), same dip again before display tank, I have excellent water quality ( I test for ammonia, nitrates, nitrites, spg, ph, alkalinity and everything's always good) Should I be testing for anything else, I know there's more tests I can do but I'm doing the important ones right?
<... don't know what your system consists of, other livestock...>
I do 10 to 20 percent water changes weekly. Lights are 10 on 14 off, its a FOWLR aquarium. The fish are not stressing from fighting or anything and there's plenty of hiding spots for comfort( the whole back of the aquarium is live rock). The only bad thing is my high temp at 84 degrees and I'm going to get that fixed this week end. Please don't think I have not read the info on your web and others, because I have read tons. I know what I'm suppose to do, but I'm just having alot
<... no such word>
of bad luck. Do you see anything else that I could be doing to make the ich go away?
Thanks again for your time Bob. Todd
<What you are currently doing all reads as good. You may have a very resistant "strain" of Cryptocaryon or other, or mix of protozoan species here. If it were me/mine, I'd invest in a cheap microscope (maybe a QX series that can be plugged into your USB...) and Ed Noga's "Fish Disease: Diagnosis and Treatment"... perhaps for Xmas... Bob Fenner>

Re: Ich, parasitic mar. sys. f'  12/10/07
Bob
<Todd>
I always read from your site that formalin was to
<too...>
toxic, maybe what I read meant for a med tank and not a dip.
<Ahh, yes>
I'll try that in my dip next time around. Sorry for the mistake on alot,
<No such word>
I try to make sure everything is good to go for you.
Thanks again for your time for the fish questions and the english
<English>
 corrections. Todd
<Mmm... okay. Be chatting, BobF>

Re: Ich... nuking
Hello again Bob, thanks for your past responses!!
Yeah your right about that, nosickfish is expensive!!
<I'll say!>
I decided to tear everything down and start fresh, that way I'll know that the parasite is not coming from my display, and next time do better dips with formalin like you had said.
<Okay>
I rinsed all my equipment in hot fresh water and let everything dry. Is that going to be enough to kill all 3 life stages of ich? Is that also enough to kill all that other parasites that it could of been, if I did have something besides ich?
<Mmm, actually... drying won't "do it"... saw a pic (an electron micrograph if memory serves) by Harry Grier years back in FAMA, showing the resting stage in/amongst some dried Artemia nauplii...>
I soaked all my liverock in hot freshwater for about 20 minutes and let air dry for about 8 hours. And I also stirred my live sand in hot freshwater for about 20 minutes. Since my liverock and live sand bacteria will be dead now, will the bacteria growth from cycling my tank again make the rock and sand live and good again?
<Yes, in time>
Or do I need to get new good fresh liverock and live sand (in other words is there different bacteria on liverock and live sand from the ocean that my aquarium can not produce by itself)?.
<Will "come in" via the air, elsewhere. But adding some new will greatly speed up, improve the process>
If so I can use my dead rock and sand if I seed them with good stuff right? I have 120 pounds of liverock and 100 pounds of live sand, how much liverock and live sand would I need to get my dead rock and sand well seeded? Can I get just liverock or live sand to seed with, or do I need to get both? Can I put the liverock and live sand in my refugium section of my sump to seed my main display or does the liverock have to be up against the dead rock and the live sand be on top of the dead sand? Is there anything you can buy, like those bags of bacteria for cycling a aquarium faster (do they really even work?), that will seed the dead rock and sand?
<This is all posted on WWM>
I was also going to run my aquarium with fresh water for a week, Do you think that is a good idea for a further step to kill the ich or other parasite, or should I start adding salt again and start cycling my aquarium?
Thanks again for your time, Todd
<To be sure of eradication requires the use of a biocide, like chlorine bleach... Bob Fenner>
 

Re: Ich, parasitized sys.
Hey Bob
<Todd>
On those questions that you said were posted on WWM about the liverock and sand placement to seed, I have been searching for them through those sections, I just have not ran across them yet, I'll keep reading, I'll find them sooner or later. Sometimes it takes awhile to find the exact answer I'm looking for, but with all the great info on your site I always learn a ton, I wish I had more time to spend on it!! I need to take a vacation and spend it on WWM!!!!
<Have you tried the search tool? Looking at the cached (colored term) views?>
I have read that drying equipment would kill all types of parasites, guess you can't trust everything you read, So chlorine bleach is the way to go then in order to kill everything. I have read a few different procedures on using bleach, and was wondering if you could point me in the right direction so I do it right the first time. Is 1/4 cup chlorine bleach per gallon of water the right dose? Is soaking for 1 to 5 minutes a long enough time? Is this method going to kill the resting stages of the parasite for sure? I can soak everything except for my aquarium, for this can I use a spray bottle and really soak it or is it better to fill to aquarium with chlorine bleach/water mixture? After this procedure, can I just let the equipment dry or do I need to use a dechlorinator?
<Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/clnornart.htm
and the linked files above. RMF>
Can I also use this method on my rock and sand, since its dead anyways, or will it let out chlorine bleach into my aquariums water after time?
Thanks so much for all your info!!! Todd

Re: Ich, parasitic mar. sys. f'
Bob
Thanks for the quick response!!
<Welcome>
That article is about cleaning equipment that looks dirty. It did help me with some of my questions "thanks", but I need to know the dose and soaking time to kill the resting stages of ich and other parasites? And I can't find anything about using bleach on rock and sand, just wondering if it will leach out over time even if I use a dechlorinator?
<About the same procedure, concentration... a few cups (take care not to spill, splash...) circulated for about an hour, and rinsing, the use of dechlorinator... Bob Fenner>
Thanks again Bob, Todd

Cryptocaryoniasis death: Now What?   8/14/07
Hi Bob and everyone at WWM,
As you guys know already, you rock. I've been reading and reading on crypt and can't decide what to do with my tank at this point because the last decision I made killed my poor fish (I think).
I have a 55gal with 5 Chromis viridis, a Pseudocheilinus hexataenia, and used to have a Centropyge loricula. I've got about 30 blue legged hermit crabs (supposedly, may be mixed species) and 20ish Trochus snails. 60 lbs of live rock, 60 lbs of sand. The tank is only about 3 months old and although ammonia and nitrites are zero, my nitrates are still around 20ppm, pH 8.2. I do a 5 gallon water change weekly with RO water.
So the problem with crypt started when I introduced the six line and the flame angel about a month and a half ago. The Chromis had the ammonia/nitrites down and everything seemed to be going ok. Like everyone else who seems to have to write to you, I skipped the quarantine (pure laziness, I have 3 freshwater quarantine tanks going and would have had to trouble converting one but I'm an idiot) because I thought, "Well, the Chromis are strong these guys won't introduce anything new that they can't handle". The day after the flame was added, sure enough, he gets ich. He had several spots but was eating like a pig and wasn't flashing. I called the LFS, the owner of which is incredibly knowledgeable, and asked him what to do. He said to just leave him alone because it was just showing because of the stress of moving. I listened, and Flame got better.
(You know what's going to happen next don't you?...)
Sure enough, 5 days later, it's back. Now he begs the six line to clean him and the haughty little six line refuses. Flame's still eating though. I run to the LFS and get two Lysmata amboinensis (forgot to mention them in the list of livestock up there). Man are they awesome. They clean him like there's no tomorrow and then chase him around trying to clean him so more.
So basically, I keep fighting this battle of feeding him like crazy, upping water changes to 3 times a week, temp up to 84F, and letting the cleaners take care of business. Four weeks later things are still going like this.
One week the infections (which happen pretty much every other day because of the faster life cycle) are smaller, the next they're worse.
Then last week they start to get really bad. He still is behaving normally, but just looks terrible. So now I think, "OK, I'm gonna dilute these suckers out of there and drop my nitrates and the same time" and start doing daily 10% water changes. Flame keeps getting worse. Then finally, one morning, he won't eat. That evening, his coloring looks back and he still won't eat. The next morning, same thing, so into quarantine he goes. The QT tank isn't too important but take my word for it that I set it up properly. I treat him with Metronidazole, which I know isn't ideal but it's all I could get at that time in the morning and I was scared. (So was he!) Sure enough he died that night and I was heartbroken.
So now (after this mini essay) here's the question. I only want to add 2 more fish to my tank. A dwarf angel (I don't know if I want to have another flame, but something) and a smaller sand sifting goby that I haven't decided on. None of my other fish have ever shown symptoms, but I realize that they can be infected without showing symptoms (right?). Do I stress the remaining fish by moving them and doing the fallow tank treatment on the main tank? Or, do I try to do everything I can to lower the numbers of those freaking, sneaky little crypt buggers and then try again with new fish in a few months? I don't have a protein skimmer yet (I know, it's adding to my nitrate problem) or a UV sterilizer (because I'm a poor grad student) but am getting both. I have this idea in my head that maybe because the other fish aren't showing symptoms and are healthy, fewer organisms are able to get into them and infect them. And maybe this will help keep the numbers down too. (?) I can set up a decent size quarantine because I'm a weirdo that collects cheap used tanks even though I don't have room for them to be set up normally, and keeps them in the garage. I've got extra filters too and PVC. I'm worried about ammonia and nitrite spikes and what that could do to the already ich infected fish. What do you think?
While I'm writing, if you were me what would you start with for corals? I've got compact fluorescents, I don't understand watts/volts/physics in general to tell you how powerful they are but my (very good) LFS man who is amazing with corals says they'll be good enough for pretty much anything.
Katie
>>>Greetings Katie,
I guess we can skip the quarantine lecture! If the remaining fish remain non-symptomatic, you can leave them in the display. Just don't add anything else for a few months, better make it at least 3 months to be safe. Low level infections can remain for quite some time.
If need be, don't be afraid to set up a hospital tank, but hopefully this will not be necessary.
I need more info on your lighting, but mushroom corals are great to start with, as are star polyps.
Cheers
Jim<<<

Concerns about my system... Mis-stocked, crypt-infested... reading...  8/10/07
Hi guys, wrote to you many times telling you about my successes. However just days ago I had an ick outbreak, put a flagfin angel
<A "touchy" species>
in this tank which is a 75 gallon tank with refugium, skimmer, and live rock. Other fish are regal angel, potters angel,
<These are also not easily kept... and the Regal is misplaced here in this too-small volume>
hippo tang, false facular butterfly, and two skunk clowns, and a bubble anemone, lighting is a t5 220 watts system. Just about two months ago I noticed a lot of algae growing in the tank and I do feed this tank a lot because the type a fish, so my first question is , is it a good idea to keep fish like this in a tank with anemones and this much light. Also I had to move the fish to a treatment tank I'm concerned about using copper with the fish I have, so I treated them in a bucket with tank water and formalin. I also lowered the salinity in this hospital tank could this be effective do not have a biological filter large enough for copper treatment in this other tank, help Ron
<... Please... fix your English before sending... and read on WWM re Crypt... what you describe is untenable. BobF>

Velvet Treatment, reading   8/5/07
Hi Crew
I was hoping you could give me some reassurance? Im treating a Passer Angel now for velvet. I gave him a fresh water dip and returned him to his tank
<... of no use. If the causative agent is there will re-infest in short order>
and then made up a five gallon bucket with some CopperSafe at 1.5 PPM
<Copper not a useful treatment for Amyloodinium, and not of really much use period as a dip additive...>
and water from a different tank. Tank is established and then gave him a another freshwater dip and put him in the five gallon bucket with CopperSafe. I started this two days ago and Im not seeing Improvement?
<No, likely not to be of use>
He looks better after the freshwater dip but later in the day it comes back like WOW? Im using a bucket with 2 air stones so I can change the water every day. I was using a 20 gallon long hospital tank but after I add copper my ammonia levels go super high right after I add the copper. I understand this can be a false positive but I don't know how often to do a partial water change in the hospital tank when I cant get a accurate reading on ammonia?
<Posted...>
So I thought a bucket would be good so just to be safe I change all the water everyday. Why am I not
seeing him improving? If you could give me some quick pointers without sending me in to read in WetWebMedia I would appreciate it. I have read for hours in your site
<Not where useful...>
and feel Im doing everything right but thought I would be seeing him get better a little. I trust you guys a lot more then any pet store around here unfortunately. Thanks for all help past and present and future. This site is great! Rick
<Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/amylloodiniumart.htm
and the linked files above... and elsewhere re dips... Bob Fenner>

Queen Angel and Niger Trigger problems... parasitic SW sys., reading    7/25/07
I have had a Queen Angel and a Niger Trigger among several other fish in my 170 gal tank for approximately 1 year now.
<... a tenuous mix>
About a month ago, the Trigger came down with what I believe to be a bad case of ick (forgive the spelling pls).
<Mmm... marines don't "come down" with such parasitic infestations... They have to be introduced, triggered...>
I treated it by putting melafix in the tank daily
<Of no use whatsoever>
for about a week and used CFX to bring the copper level up to around .15.
<In ppm? This is the absolute minimum low physiological dosage...>
After a couple of days, the Trigger was better.
<... just cycled off>
A week or so later, the Queen started hiding under the reef
<?>
and has been doing so for probably a month now. She does eat, but is not active and social as she was prior to this happening. She appears to twitch from time to time, but I can see nothing wrong with her.
I've been monitoring the water, (I do regular water changes. Usually one a month, but given what has been going on with these two I've done it every two weeks for the last three changes) closely and the PH is a little low, but is around 8.0. I'm bringing it up as we speak.
<... okay>
Over the past week or so, the Trigger has started to hide in the reef most of the time. Tonight, I discovered that one of his eyes has clouded over.
<... yes>
I'm at a loss.
<A few likely possibilities... the "fix" and/or Cu poisoned your beneficial microbes... and/or the fishes directly... But the most likely scenario additionally is that the Crypt is still present... subclinically/symptomatically>
I am considering doing a Fresh Water Dip with the Methylene Blue, but wanted to get some advise prior to tackling this.
<... you need to read...>
I do not have a hospital tank at this point.
<... Oh! And you dumped the chemicals into your main system? Not smart>
I have a total of 10 fish in the tank two puffers, two pacific blue tangs, a lunar wrasse, two fox face, one clown and the two sicklings.
<Correction: the system itself is infested... ALL your fish livestock are involved>
I should also note that I had two clowns, but one of them disappeared about two weeks ago. I'm sure it died and the rest ate it, but I have no idea what may have caused it.
<The treatment, reading...>
I am completely new at this. This is my first tank and I am really worried that I have something bad going on in it.
<Oh yes, assuredly you do>
Help. Is the freshwater dip the right thing? Is there anything else I should be doing?
<Reading>
Thank you in advance for your advice in this matter.
David Smith
<Start here: http://wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
and on to the linked files above... till you understand generally what your situation is, what your options are here. Good luck, life. Bob Fenner>

Ick! The first thing an aquarist says when he sees white spots on his fish. Some Gifts Are “Not” – 07/07/07
Good morning, everyone.
<<Greetings Scott>>
This isn't a question so much as a morality tale.
<<Oh?>>
First, a brief background synopsis...
<<Okay>>
100 gallon tank, 75 pounds of live rock (been slowly acquiring more)
<<Don’t be too quick to fill the tank with live rock…the fishes need room to swim/corals need room to grow…you likely have enough for the necessary biological processes>>
Fish-only system (although lots of inverts are starting to thrive from the live rock).
<<Cool>>
The main inhabitants are a Green Moray Eel,
<<Yeeikes! If you mean Gymnothorax funebris this animal can grow to nine feet in length and attain a weight of more than 60lbs in the wild. You need at least “three to five times your current tank size” just for this fish alone!
Yellow Tang, Miniatus Grouper,
<<Sigh… Another “too large” fish for this tank my friend>>
Stars-and-Strips Puffer, Antennata Lion Fish,
<<An incompatible mix…>>
and a mysterious Rock Fish of some type.
<<At this point…I shudder to imagine my friend>>
Most of these fish and tank were given to me.
<<Most? Well I guess the good news “might be” you didn’t start this mess…the bad news is you are left to deal with it>>
I've upgraded the protein skimmer, the canister filter, and sump/refugium but I am still very much a novice.
<<And in well over your head I’m afraid…but I/we are here to help where we can>>
Since I had good success on the other fish in the system,
<<A “very” temporary situation, I assure you>>
I purchased a healthy-looking Powder Blue Tang without fully reading up on it (strike one).
<<Oh my…>>
I placed him directly into my aquarium since I never had problems adding any of the other fish (strike two). I left the apartment to enjoy the Fourth of July festivities and returned home later to discover white spots all over the new Powder Blue (strike three). I removed him to a five-gallon bucket with a small pump and air hose for circulation. I don't have a quarantine tank (strike four).
<<Mmm, indeed…>>
As soon as the local fish store opens today, I will be bringing the Powder Blue back and asking to either quarantine it or refund my money.
<<Shoot for the refund, mate. And… Look for a new home for the Eel… And… Decide whether you want the Puffer OR the Lion, finding a new home as well for the one you decide not to keep>>
Of course, I also need to do a massive water change on my tank to hopefully, minimize the damage I might have done.
<<Will make no difference re the crypt>>
This tale of woe should be observed by all beginners trying to keep fish to save from all of the problems of which I now have to deal. I should have read WetWebMedia first.
<<Please continue to do so now re Ich treatment, species compatibility, marine systems in general>>
DO YOUR HOMEWORK! Thanks for all of the work you guys put into this site - it is a valuable reference (that I will be reading avidly before any more purchases).
<<Thank you for your input my friend>>
Frustrated but it's all my fault,
Scott
<<Please do consider my suggestions Scott. Read on/research our site and the NET in general, and should you have specific questions…you know where to find me. Regards, EricR>>

Blue hippo (regal) tang changing tanks, En-Crypt-ed systems   3/11/07
Hello again, I hope you are doing well, whomever responds to this email.
<Yes, thank you>
I have a small Regal tang in a 29 gallon BioCube as temporary housing until it moves to my 92 gallon (when I say small I mean about 2 to 3 inches).
<Needs more room, psychologically, now>
It had it's bout with ich
<Also stress related...>
and rather than move it to treat it with copper ( I have read this is bad for the digestive system of tangs)
<Yes>
I decided to purchase a small UV sterilizer, which in time took care of the problem,
<Mmm, no>
I have not seen a spot in months.  My question is, since I know I've had ich in my 92 gallon tank and did not treat for it and all the fish got over it, should I worry about doing a freshwater dip?
<Mmm, I would not worry, but I would do the dip>
The Regal tang has been in the BioCube for a long time, at least 4 months, it is eating like a pig and appears quite healthy.  I am paranoid about doing the freshwater dip, I have seen it done and it did not turn out well ( Purple tang ).  I would like to acclimate to the new system (not new a year old) and place the Regal tang in it without
<Okay... will likely not make "much" difference... Depending on the resident ich/Crypt populations, there might be some synergism, or unrelated strengthening on their part...>
causing it any added stress.  What is your opinion on this idea?  I currently have a Kole tang, Clownfish, and a Blue Flavivertex Pseudochromis in the 92 gallon tank, do you think any of these would pick on the new fish?  
<Hopefully not>
I know you will probably say that is too many fish for a 92 gallon tank, but all are small and I will rehouse if need be.  Any advice or opinions on this would be very appreciated.  Thank you, Ryan.  Please forgive any misspellings, I checked my spell check and all appeared well.  Thanks again, Ryan.
<Looks good... I would move this fish. Bob Fenner>

Crypt... and a creek w/o a paddle thus far    02/17/07
I have a 220 FOWLR that has two 4-inch lions, a 4-inch Huma Huma and a 4-inch porcupine puffer.
<Yikes... do keep your eye on the Trigger... it may bite all else... or the Puffer... may harass the Lions...>
One of the lions is brand new and the other I have had for a month.  The older lion is by far the most aggressive fish in the tank.  I am attempting to wing him off live food, but when he is not fed he chases and corners the puffer (Sammy).  To make matters worse I think my puffer has ich due to a slight salt appearance on his fins.
<Yikes... no fun in a large system>
He also seems to have lost the blue gleam in his eyes.  I am worried to say the least and I think it may be due to stress from the aggressive lion.  I lowered my gravity to 1.015, my ammonia is 0, nitrite is 0 and nitrate is 15.  I began to raise my temperature from 75 to 80, but the local fish store advised against it. Yesterday after reading up on dips, I began to fresh water dip him and adjusted the temperature and PH.
<But... returned the fish/es to the infested system? Won't help>
Tonight I did the same and added methylene blue.  It is an average of 15 minutes each dip.  I do not have access to a quarantine tank and the puffer has begun to hide and spend time on the bottom of the tank behind rocks and coral, probably from the stress of the dips I assume.
<At least a contributing cause, yes>
He is still responsive and eats ok.  Should I continue the same treatment and hope it takes effect after more time or is there any other options I have not researched yet.
Thank you,
Jesse Campbell
<I would... research... and soon. Please start by reading here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/cryptpuffs.htm
and where you lead yourself... the blue links... Bob Fenner>

Imperator Angelfish, Juvenile and Copperband Butterfly    1/5/07
Dear WWM crew,
<Steve>
I have new fish in my 125g tank.  Among the fish are an Imperator Angelfish,
<Will need more room...>
Juvenile and a Copper Band Butterfly.  They arrived about 1 week ago.  Since my tank only had a damsel in it I added all new fish to the main tank, this tank has a pump running water through a UV return.  It seems as though it is keeping any ick at bay.
<Would be better to quarantine/observe for a few weeks... at least run new fishes through a prophylactic dip/bath... as you will learn>
The Angel had a few spots of it when it arrived but seems to be slowly going away.
<...>
however he now has developed what looks like clear wooly looking fluff at the end tip of one of his fins, it is very small perhaps the size of 1 - 1.5mm in length...I'm not quite sure what it is??
<Mmm, perhaps just resultant from "ammonia burn", stress of capture, holding, shipping...>
Anchor worm perhaps.
<Assuredly no... this is a freshwater-only parasite...>
there are no visual signs of it actually being a worm. Without being able to provide you further details, do you think it is something to be worried about?
<Will worrying change the future?>
He has been eating without any hesitation (mysis, algae, brine, flake)  I'm a bit concerned in case this develops into anything worse.  Also, I noticed yesterday that my copperband butterfly was looking beat-up.  I seen my angel periodically nipping at him.
<... So, what will you do?>
his bottom fins are now somewhat bitten back (looks like fin rot) and his scales look dark and bruised inn certain places with what looks like redness or blood from a few of his lower scales.  his eyes are clear and side fins fully intact.
<Chelmon butterflies are not hardy-shipped species... See WWM re>
He wasn't swimming much so I netted him and placed him in a QT tank.  My water parameters are  good.  
<... numbers please...>
I am trying to stay away from meds if possible.  but will administer if absolutely needed. What are your suggestions for both my fish?
<For you to read re their needs, Behavior... See WWM re each/all. Bob Fenner>
Thanks in advance,
Steve

Crypt, parasitized system.   10/5/06
Hello Crew:
I have a 55 Gallon tank and I just added a new Sixline Wrasse after 3 weeks quarantine.  One week later my royal Gramma had ick  
<The system already "had it"... the addition of the Pseudocheilinus just "brought it on">
I removed all fish from the main tank and am running it fallow.  I know that the recommended time for this is four weeks however I am leaving for vacation in 25 days and want to know if adding the fish back to the tank would completely negate all the work that I am doing to cure this problem.
<Mmm, a tough one... what other fishes (species) are involved? The two small ones mentioned can likely be cleared in this time frame... and the system "speeded up" in terms of cycling the Crypt (by elevated temperature, reduced specific gravity if the possible invertebrates can take this>
  I have a fish sitter but I don't want to make them responsible for the every other day water changes that I will be doing while the fish are in QT. Do you think I would be OK after 25 days?
Thank you so much for all that you do.
<... Need more info... and/or for you to read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/parasittksfaqs.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>

Disease in my 80G   9/19/06
Dear Mr. Fenner
<Rachel>
I recently encountered with a very tragic accident. I have a 80G tank with 1 Regal Tang 4”, 1 Bannerfish 4”, 1 Clownfish 1”, 1 Humu Picasso Triggerfish 1.5”, 2 Dancing Shrimps, 1 small Starfish & one small Bubble-tip Anemone. My most recent addition was the above mentioned triggerfish that I added 1 week ago with 1 week of quarantining which was unfortunately not enough & soon after my regal tang showed some spots but only visible at some angles when the light is strongly reflecting from its body.
<Good observation>
So I think it’s the White Spot disease although none of the others have any symptoms.
<Not uncommon in a "low grade" infestation>
I live near the Ocean (actually near a coral reef) in Ceylon so for my ease of use I use saltwater directly from the sea but aged for at least a month in a dark place.
<Good. This parasite very likely came in with/on the Tang... not from the new seawater>>
Now I am planning to set all my fish free into the nearby coral reef (where there are enough and more fish of their own types) and then I’m not planning to introduce any other fish to my tank for a month until the disease is not there anymore in my tank????
My question is it okay for me to keep the Shrimps, Starfish and the Anemone in the tank???? I heard they are not a vector for the white spot disease????
<Yes and yes, correct>
Will these animals keep my Nitration cycle running efficiently as I have heard the Nitration cycle ends when fish are not there in the tank and I have to restart the whole thing again for me to introduce new fish????
<Yes. They will indeed sustain the nitrifying microbes here.>
After a month I am planning to introduce some fish that has been at least quarantined for 2-3 weeks. Does my plan seem okay to you???? Anyway sorry to trouble you with my problem. Thanks in advance for any advice, best regards,
Rachel  
<Yes. Sounds like a fine plan. Bob Fenner>

Personifer Angel/Please Help... mixed Angels, Crypt likely   9/2/06
Hello Everyone: I have read just about everything I could about the personifer (I think) I have a 180 gallon all fish and live rock tank. My Personifer angel is about 3 ns half inches long and has white spots that are more spread around then close together. In the book by Robert M Fenner (great book) it looks like it could be Amyloodinium Ocellatum more then it could be ich but am not really sure.
<Mmm, could be either from this description... but if Amyloodinium this fish would be soon dead... a few days>
My PH is 8.4 and everything else is great and my salt level is between 1.022 or 1.024 somewhere in the middle. I have about 3 other peaceful angels in my tank also.
<Mmm, likely not compatible>
I just want to know please,  how can I cure him? I have a 10 gallon tank I could set up. I have copper, QuickCure. Please tell me directly on how to save him And how can I look up a fish where just you guys talk about the fish only?  Please help me I really love this fish and I paid $200 dollars for him. I live in New York and it bother me to see this.  Please reply to
Joey Harper  
<A bit more to this... you need to treat all, including the tank itself. Set some time aside (and soon) and read, starting here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
and the linked files above. You need to formulate a plan, get more treatment tanks, start making new water for change-outs... Bob Fenner>

-Tank is Ill-  8/28/06
First of all...you guys are amazing....
I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say....Thanks!
<Thank you, we try to do what we can with what we have.  I believe Bob said something about sharing the wealth of knowledge makes everyone a better aquarist :)> <<Indeed, the world a better place. RMF>>
I have an 80 gal aquarium with an eel, a lionfish, a small puffer, and an angelfish...
First Question - IS this tank too small? I know that Eels can get very large, as well as puffers....I may need to upgrade to a bigger tank....?
<Yes, even without listing what specific types of the fish are, all eels get a foot at least, the lion at least 6-8 if its a dwarf, 18"+ if not, ditto for the puffers and angels 6 inch minimum full growth, and even at small sizes they still put out waste like their adult sizes.>
Second....been fighting ich for a few weeks with little success. Puffer won't eat, lionfish has cloudy eyes, etc....I first moved them to a smaller quarantine tank because its all I had. However, its too small to keep them in there for much longer. I raised the temperature of the tank to 81 degrees, lowered the salinity to 1.016 and also added a small amount of "Copper Power"....
<Uh oh.....>
Now that I have researched your site, I see that for hyposalinity to be effective, the reading should be closer to 1.010 correct?
<1.012 ish is fine, but yes, has to be lower.>
Is the temperature about right?
<I would bump it to 84 ish, but without knowing more about your fishes size, and the size of the Q/T, the higher the water temp the less oxygen there is, so you might suffocate your fish.>
Also. Although my LFS told me that they run Copper in all their tanks and assured me that it wouldn't be harmful to my fish...I see that Copper can be extremely bad for Puffers and Lionfish...correct?
<Jawohl.  Copper is a very powerful medicine, that requires a test kit usually,  Each fish tolerates it differently, and puffers and lions are on the very short end of that.  All naked gill fish don't do well in copper at all long term, and sick fish fair worse.  Your LFS probably has their copper at 2ppm or less, which is considered therapeutic, but you need to be higher usually to kill ich, 10+ppm.  you can read about copper and puffers on pufferresources.net>
What do you suggest I do to address my ich problem then? Out of frustration, today I emptied the main tank, cleaned it thoroughly, and decided to "Start over". Can I do something as simple as move all back into the main tank once established and perform hyposalinity with a temperature raise there? I am buying all new crushed coral and decorations, so hopefully there won't be much residual copper...
<You can, however, there is no point to letting your 80 gallon get established only to kill all the bacteria by doing hypo salinity.  I would remove everything from the 80gal that was dosed with copper and toss it.  put your fish in that bare bottomed with no decorations (just the fish and the filter heater etc) and lower the salinity over a week (.02 per day or two at each water change).  Do daily water changes to keep the water quality up, and keep that going for a week or so.  See if there is improvement.  You will need to gravel vac the bare bottom of all white dust you see when you do the water changes.  2-3 weeks and you should be totally ok.  Re-add substrate once your fish are cured for over a week.>
Lastly....the puffer has not eaten for about three weeks. I read here that they can survive that long...and even longer if necessary....but I am worried. So, regarding the force feeding....I have krill, cockle, and garlic for starters? How far should I insert the syringe/turkey aster/whatever to insure he doesn't just spit it back up?...and how do you get the pieces small enough to be sucked up by the feeder? (He's only about 4 inches and mouth is actually too small for a turkey baster..)
<At this point the copper and ich have probably ruined its appetite, you can add garlic to the foods to entice it to want to eat, but getting the water quality stable and clean, and getting the fish into uncoppered water is your best hope for their survival.>
Thanks so much..
Russ
<Hope that helped>
<Justin>

A sad day indeed   8/14/06
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/7/aaeditorial
<Indeed... Terry is a fine person as well as a scholar... Bob Fenner>

Disease, SW... are you sure you've been reading?  7/8/06
Hi there,
<Hello>
I have read all of your FAQs about Ich and Velvet and other diseases,
<Wowzah! Some time investment now!>
but still have a question. I have a 72 gallon tank with almost 100lbs of Live Rock, 1 bubble tipped anemone, 1 sebae anemone,
<Best not to mix actinarian species in hobby-sized volumes...>
30 various crabs, 1 fire shrimp, 2 starfish and a sea cucumber. I had two sebae clowns for about 2 months and then they seemed to come down with what I thought was
Ich, but then thought was Velvet (based on LOTS of reading and research). I went to the LFS and purchased a 'reef safe'  medicine.
<No such thing exists that is effective...>
After about a week of this along with two freshwater dips and them not looking any better, I took them out and put them in a quarantine tank. I
continued with this product and lost both of them,
<I do hope the perpetrators of such fraud are themselves treated with placebos when sick...>
the first one within days, the second within about 2 weeks. They both had very small white spots and eventually refused to eat. There didn't seem to be anything else wrong with them. I did do some freshwater dips
<... and returned them to an infested system? What perceived value was/is this?>
while they were still in the 72g tank, and this resulted in them both looking like they had a version of Hole In The Head disease along with white the same white spots.
<Stress effect...>
It's too bad this happened, but the worst is now over.
<... Mmm, no... it may be (pardon the paraphrase) that "The Worst Is Yet To Come!">
My question for you is that I also have 5 damselfish left in there who seemed completely unaffected by all of this (3 Blue Devil, 1 Yellow Tail and 1 Four-Striped).
<Heeeeee! "Space vectors"... they're carriers...>
It has been three weeks now since the clowns were taken out and they are still totally fine and happy. If my problem was
Ich or Velvet and I didn't catch it in time, is it going to remain alive in the tank with the unaffected damsels in there?
<Yepster>
Do I have to take them out and leave the tank fishless for a month or so to be sure?
<Maybe>
Or can I leave it with them in there for a month and have the same affect?
<Nope>
Thanks for your time,
Jarred
<Keep reading, syncretizing, cogitating furiously... Bob Fenner>

New 180 reef tank ... crypt infested  - 05/10/2006
Hi Bob/Team,
A dilemma has surfaced in my reef aquarium. 2 years ago during the hurricane season of 04' we had a power loss & my 90  & 55 gallon reef tanks got hot d/t several days w/o  power. My hippo tang in my 90 came down with a case of ick. I didn't panic & let the cleaner shrimp work it out. After a couple of weeks the ick was not visible on a constant basis but every so often I would see a few spots. I know the ick was never irradiated
<eradicated?>
from my system but it became almost a non issue.
2 weeks ago I figured my fish in the 2 tanks needed a bigger home. I purchased a 180 gallon tank & transferred all my inhabitants into one large aquarium. I'm sure you know where I am going with this..... Now my purple tang has quite a little break out.
<Yes... your systems themselves are infested...>
Spots are gone in the morning probably d/t a combo of the cleaners & the miserable life cycle of those little pests but return in the afternoon. No labored breathing noted. The Hippo has a few spots here & there but nothing dire. Everyone is eating eagerly & other than the spots I see no ill affects.
Here is my question. Do I panic & rip out everyone or let the 5 cleaner shrimp & garlic treated food do their thing? I waited last time & it worked out but this time I'm not so sure. any advise is appreciated.
Here are the particulars.
ph 8.2
Ammonia 0
Nitrate 10ppm
Nitrite 0
Salinity 1.026
180 gallon reef
75 gallon sump/refugium with various inverts & mineral mud/sand
Sea life systems 400 skimmer powered by mag 9.5
mag 18 for return
250 LBS live rock
Countless softy's zoo's mushrooms etc. 
several leathers etc.  etc. ....
6'' substrate fine sand
2 Metal halide 250w
1 Metal halide 400w
2 VHO actinic
5 various power heads
Hippo tang 4"
Purple tang 3"
Sailfin tang 4" I know but they seem to get along
2 black ocellaris clown
2 sm green chromis
Tiger Jawfish
Blue spot Jawfish
Pink square anthias Male 4"
2 female pink squares 3"
<Up to you... either to put up with the "ping-ponging" debilitating effects of an omnipresent sub-symptomatic parasite situation... or to remove all fishes, treat... allowing the infested system to go fallow re... All covered on WWM. Bob Fenner>

Prob.s concerning bio cycle... new to commercial, SW... parasitic disease, prevention, re-establishing sys.   4/26/06
To whoever picks this up:
Dear Sir,
I have been gathering too much info from your site the past few months while I was trying to establish a wholesale point for marine fish and I am grateful to you for this.
I ve seen that you help a lot of people with the problems they have and I was wondering if you can help me too.
I have a commercial system with the power of handling 5 tons (currently use it at its one 1/3 capacity)
<For other readers, often systems are measured elsewhere in their weight in water>
(TMC Marine system) and 25 kg.s of biomass.
It has a 440W UV bio tower sand filter big skimmer... I had it working for a month boosted with the Abil package for a quick 10 day cycle establishment.
<Theoretically... that is, under some standard...>
The water parameters were monitored and the cycle seemed to be working fine. The NO2s went up and the then down after increasing the NO3s (Strangely a white dusty byproduct was left down on the bottom of my tanks??)
<Not uncommon>
After that I had my first order coming from Indonesia. At the first 5-6 days everything was good all the 150 fish (2-3 kg.s biomass) came to balance and got back their beautiful colors. The nest few days they started showing stress they developed whitespot and started dying.
<Very common that wild fish are infested... you don't (yet) mention acclimation or treatment procedures... these are extremely important, and detailed on WWM for commercial and residential applications>
Until I realize what's going on half of my stock was dead my ammonia went to the sky and my NO2s as well
<This is to be expected... from the dead, dying source of protein...>
the remaining of my stock I gave it to many of my friend because I couldn't watch them die slowly any more.
<... are you sure you're suited to this/our industry?>
Now I am trying to get things going again and this is where I need your advice.
Should I keep the water I have in the system (artificial) or should I sterilize everything and start from the beginning using sea water and wait for the cycle to run again?
Thank you in advance for the help
Yiannis Christodoulou
<Having been in this situation before, and done both, I would bleach (sodium hypochlorite likely) the system and start again... with the same water if it is otherwise in "good shape". Please, do read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/acclimat.htm
and the many articles/FAQs files on Marine parasitic disease... Bob Fenner>

Upside-down Regal Tang ... parasitized, copper poisoned main system  - 03/26/2006
I recently upgraded my marine tank from a 75gal to a 120gallon tank.   A few days after the move I noticed the beginnings of ICH on my juvenile Emperor   Angelfish and my Red Basslet.
<The system itself is infested>
Upon the advice of a friend of mine I  gradually lowered the salinity in the tank to 1.014 and started using  Cupramine.
<Not the main/display tank... no....>
The ICH started to clear up, everybody stopped scratching and  the tank seemed to be much better.  
<Just cycled off...>
Then about five days ago, a week or so  into the treatment I noticed my 1" Regal Tang lying on her side on the  bottom gasping.  Her eyes
were so puffed up she looked more like a Black Moor Goldfish than a Tang and she was a bit swollen and bloated looking. I  immediately tested the water and all water parameters are fine.  Nitrite  and Ammonia zero, Ph 8.5, and Nitrates below 20ppm.  The only thing I could  think might be wrong was the sign efficiently lowered salinity was causing her to  absorb too much water.  (I'm not
sure exactly how the whole thing works but  from what I understand Marine fish are designed to absorb water and excrete  salt.  So since she was in a lower salinity she soaked too much up  maybe?)
<Interesting proposition. Much more likely poisoned by the copper/system treatment>
Anyway, I put her in a floating breeder trap with a few pieces of  macro algae for cover and began to slowly raise the salinity in the tank back  up. I've got the salinity back up to 1.020 now. By the day after I'd put  her in the breeder trap the Regal Tang's eyes had
started to go back down to  normal.  After five days they're down all the way. But the rest  of her is still puffy and bloated.  Not to the extent that her scales are  standing out on end like Dropsy, she's just puffy.  Even along her dorsal  fin she's puffy.  And she's stuck upside-down.
<Do orient like this in all such space>
She can right herself and swim a little but as soon as she stops swimming she goes belly up once again.  I've been throwing a few flakes in for her each day but she's not eating and is not even interested in the Macro Algae.  Is there anything  else I
can do for her?  Does she just need more time to recover or is  it hopeless?
<... You've got a bit of reading to do... Start here: http://wetwebmedia.com/parasittksfaqs.htm
the linked files above, Copper Use, the Paracanthurus article and FAQs... Bob Fenner>

Going fallow? Aquarist, parasites, knowledge  2/13/06
I have a 135ga. tank (been set up for fish only for ten years) that I am converting from fish only to a Reef tank. I have recently (during the
transition- removing undergravel adding live sand bed) had a problem with ICH (just one  of four fish), I have tried Kick-ICH & Rally and he still
has what I believe is ICH.
<These products are worthless... see WWM re>
Should I remove the one (give him to the LFS where can be treated) and not worry because some say that it is always present?
<... incorrect>
I am at a point where allowing the tank to go fallow for a period is still possible. From what I understand (which is limited) of the parasites that
cause ICH and Marine Velvet, the life cycle is only about 15 days. Is this correct?
<Best to let run sans fish hosts a month or more... posted...>
Do you recommend allowing a tank to go fallow as an solution for parasites?
Will it work?
<See WWM re>
Is three weeks long sufficient or must it be  six weeks? Thanks for your advice in advance,
Kent
<Bob Fenner>

Re: Going fallow? Going reading?   2/14/06
Will going fallow for one month really Work?
<... please read, don't write...>
If I just have Live Rock, Snails, Crabs, Shrimp is this OK?
<What?>
Can any of the above host parasites or only fish?
<... posted... on WWM. Bob Fenner>
Kent

Re: Going fallow? Can't find answer on your web site  - 02/16/2006
Will it help (the rate of die off) to raise the temp to about 82F during the fallow period?
<Mmm, yes>
At this temp would a fallow period of 4 weeks be effective?
<Maybe... the longer the better, surer. Bob Fenner>
Thanks,
Kent

Re: Fallow Tank   2/14/06
Hey Bob,
<Clay>
Thanks so much for getting back to me so quickly.  I actually had never thought about the chemical side, too busy looking for scapegoats I guess.  
<Too common>
Anyhow, with that in mind, would it be better to frag some of the corals, or just remove them entirely.
<Would only frag as semi-last resort... should ideally only be done when "in the peak of health">
  Here is a list of what I have right now.  (Sorry I have no clue what the scientific names are)
(1) Frogspawn Coral (8 heads..7" fully extended)
(1) Torch Coral (19 heads 11" fully extended)
(1) Galaxea (5" not counting sweepers)
(1) Octobubble (6")
(1) Toadstool Leather (12" from end to end)
(1) Finger Leather (12"H 7"L)
Star Polyps (lots)
Button Polyps
Zoanthids
Various mushrooms that I couldn't begin to label Please also bear in mind that I am not using a protein skimmer (I know...bad bad bad).
<You should my friend... I'd get one... pronto>
Pretty much all that i am using is about 2 oz.s of carbon changed bi-monthly. While I do not know if this is pertinent the only additives I use are Reef
Solutions and a slurry of Kalk.  Other than that I have been trying to maintain about a 5% bi-weekly water change.  Would this be enough to staunch
the allelopathy or do I need to remove anyone?
<Not nearly and if you don't adopt means of countering the ill-effects... the skimmer, more water changes, chemical filtrant... a refugium with a DSB, RDP... you will have troubles>
Thanks again for all the help you guys (and gals) provide.
Clay
<Glad to share. Bob Fenner>

Getting rid of all traces of Saltwater Ich  02-05-06
My 75 gallon tank recently had an outbreak of ich.  Though I tried hyposalinity & garlic and was ready to next try copper, the disease wiped
out the few resident fish I had in the tank all too quickly.  Since the tank is now empty, I wish to make absolutely sure that I completely eradicate all
traces of disease from that tank before I try cycling and adding livestock again.  What is the best way to do that?  I don't mind leaving it fallow for
quite some time or treating and cleaning the tank excessively to make sure that it is safe.  Please advise.  Thanks! <If you want to be sure, I'd wash the tank down with a 10% mixture of chlorine bleach and water.  Rinse two or three times or until the chlorine odor is gone.  In the future consider a quarantine tank so you will not have to go through this again.  James (Salty Dog)>
-Patrick-

Ich wipe out  12/26/05
Up and running for nearly a year without problems. 65 gal, 40lbs LR, bubbletip anemone, flame scallop, 2 cleaner shrimp, coral banded, several types of mushrooms, 5 feather dusters, button polyps, zoos, half black dwarf angel, percula clown, 2 damsels, scooter blenny, many snails and hermit crabs are alive as I write this.
I introduced a achilles tang two weeks ago which brought ich.
<... no quarantine... bunk!>
I am now setting up the quarantine tank (a little late) in an attempt to save my system. I have read much here, but still have a few questions.
The tang died after 9 days and after contaminating my tank. I just netted the corpse of the most vibrant coral beauty I've ever seen. Yesterday it was a Dottyback.
<Ultra-bunk!>
As most of us do, I'm learning the hard way. After a few hours following introduction to the tank, I noticed a few white specks on the tang.  I quickly ran a search and before long identified it as ich. Netting him seemed an impossible task without tearing the tank apart, so I looked for additives to combat the problem. This is when I added the cleaner shrimp. I learned my inverts would die and I would contaminate my LR using copper based solutions, so opted for a "reef safe" so-called cure 100% organic Kordon product and began immediate treatment.
<Good company, bunk product... lots of bunk naming this day>
Obviously, it was ineffective. My percula is covered and I fear he won't make it till sundown.
OK another novice learning the hard way. Here's the plan; get a quarantine tank set up and isolate all the fish there. I read it was suggested to use at least some percentage of water from the main tank.  Should I use any substrate?
<Mmm, nope... will absorb the copper...>
Once the fish are removed from the main tank, will the ich be able to sustain life by being hosted on any of the inverts, LR or current substrate?
<... posted on WWM>
I plan to dip the remaining fish in FW for 3 minutes prior to placing in the QT. Should the salinity be lowered in both tanks. Temps?
<Also posted...>
Will the ich eventually die off without fish as hosts in my main tank?
<...>
How long before reintroducing the fish (should I be lucky enough to keep them alive and rid them of the parasites?)  What about the shrimp, where should they reside during this process?
Thanks
<Keep reading my friend. Bob Fenner>

Adding Inverts to Fallowing Tank - Can it be Done? 10/7/05
I just wanted to say thank you. You and your crew have help me tremendously. I currently have all fish removed from main display tank and I am treating in a qtank with Cupramine for Amyloodinium.
<<Ooo.. NASTY disease.>>
I have suffered some loses while waiting to set up my hospital tank. The lesson has been learned.
<<First being that this disease moves FAST, kills FAST. Always have meds and systems on hand, ready to be set-up and administered on a moment's notice.>>
All fish seem to be taking to treatment rather well and I am testing copper levels. My question is can I add some invertebrates to my display tank during this process? I currently have 1 coral banded shrimp, 2 cleaner shrimp, 1 feather duster, 1 Protoreastor Nodosus and 1 purple tip anemone and a healthy group of corallimorphs. Thank you for helping me become a better more responsible reefkeeper.
<<I'm assuming the display tank is not being treated and it's not hyposaline. However, we have a problem with velvet because it is so infectious. It won't harm the inverts, not at all, but you really want to be sure the system is clean of the disease. So, short answer, yes, you can add your inverts to the display. Long answer is be careful not to add the fishes too quickly - you may want to use a single sacrificial fish to test safety first (a clean, disease-free fish, of course). Marina>> 

White spot in shark tank  9/30/05
Hi,
I hope you can help me as I am running out of idea's, the problem is white spot / Oodinium in my marine tank.
<Mmm, stop! Generally white spot is considered Crypt(ocaryon), not (Amyl)Oodinium...>
The tank is a 260 gallon set up with a sump filter, uv and large skimmer, this tank has been running for over a year now and is set up as a shark tank with little live rock.
<Where are the spaces between your sentences? Why do you think I/we have time to correct your grammar?>
I have a large epaulette shark which is fine,1 x lunar wrasse,1 x bursa trigger and 1 x black trigger, I do have a quarantine tank which is used for any new fish before they go to the main tank, the problem seems to be in the main tank because every fish that is added to the new tank after coming from quarantine seam's to start with white spot,
<The main system is infested...>
the lunar is the only fish apart from the shark that seam's to be clean. My bursa at the moment is covered and my black has a couple of spot's, due to the size of the tank once any fish are in there I can not get them out alive, the tank has just been treated with Kent marine RxP
<Worthless>
which seemed ok but I have now lost 1 x red sea banner and a large six bar angle which a lovely fish, can you help me with any idea's on how I can get the main tank clear of this problem as I do not want to lose any more fish.
<Time to send you... where you should have gone/been already... to the archived materials on/that are WWM... read... re parasitic systems, these two parasites mentioned here... medications>
I have been told today that there could be a chance that my epaulette could have the white spot on it but because it doe's not effect them its just passing it on to any fish in the tank, could this be true
<Yes... but, it is obvious that your system "has" the ich/velvet... the fishes have become symptom-less there from long exposure... However, with declining water quality, a loss of nutrition, resistance... they can/will succumb>
if yes how could I get it cleared as I can not use any copper treatment on the shark.
Thank you for your help Jason.
<Keep reading... and learn to/use your spelling and grammar checkers... You don't want to appear/be ignorant, and I don't want to waste my time correcting you. Bob Fenner>

Recurrent Ich on Regal Tang 8/23/05
Hi,<Hello>
I have had an 120G FOWLR tank for the past 16 months. After a couple of
initial outbreaks of ich in the middle of last year, I consulted your  
website and followed the suggestions to let the main tank run fallow
for a month, while treating the fish with copper in a separate
container. I did not have any problems with ich until last month, when
I introduced a 2" Regal tang, after one month of quarantine. Three days
later, the tang developed ich and went back to quarantine, this time
with copper. A month later, I re introduced the fish into my main tank
and within a few days the ich was back on the tang. The rest of my fish
are doing fine. The tang is back in the hospital tank with copper. I am
in a quandary as to what to do with this fish. I appreciate the
wonderful work you do and offer my sincere thanks in advance. <Copper based medication should be used with a copper test kit to insure effective dosing.  This may be the problem.  One month would be the minimum length of time in quarantine.  Ensure you have an effective does and keep the tank in QT for five weeks.  James (Salty Dog)>
Gopu <<Uhh, and yes, you will have to remove all fish livestock (again)... RMF>>

Disease recovery question 8/18/05
I'm having trouble finding a solution to the following problem and am hoping you can help.  Approximately five weeks ago I purchased a  Paracanthurus hepatus to add to my 180 gallon reef.  The fish was  dipped and then placed in a quarantine tank for 21 days.  No visible  problems in the quarantine tank, it
was active and a great eater.  I added  the fish to my 180 after the quarantine
period and it seemed fine for the first  week.  Thereafter I noticed what I
thought was ich appear
<Can, could be something else...>
first on the tang  and then spread to my other fish.  
Over the course of the next week,  the disease proceeded to wipe out each and
every fish in my tank, except for a  Gymnothorax melatremus, which, as best as I
can tell, seems fine.   In hindsight, I was probably dealing with Oodinium
rather than ich.  Since  my tank is a reef I cannot treat the disease by way of
medication so  my plan is to run the system fallow for approximately 60 days.  
<Good>
  My question is, will the eel make this effort futile and, if so, do you
have any  suggestions for getting the tank back to being able to support fish?   
<Mmm, having a fish host, though one largely resistant to this parasite, in place is problematical... but not-moving may be best/better here... and instead risking re-infestation...>
Removing the eel will likely require breaking apart the reef, which I would
like  to avoid. Thank you for any help you may offer.
Michael S. Jacobs
<Sorry for your trouble, and the lack of comprehensive response here... If it were me, given the info. provided, I would not move the Moray... would wait out the two months, add only new fishes with assured good health, perhaps some small purposeful cleaner fishes... likely Gobiosoma species, with them. Bob Fenner>

Ick semi-cured but Fish won't eat... actually, need for Crypt and copper education, quick 7/31/05
Hey Crew,
<Mazi>
I need some help with this one, I'll try to be as detailed as I can while being concise.
Here is what I've got and what I'm dealing with:
75 Gal FOWLR (20 Lbs LS & 75 Lbs LR)
Emperor Angel (Juvenile changing colors ~ 3.5 in.)
Clownfish (1.5")
Raccoon Butterfly (2.5")
Yellow Tang (3.5")
Sailfin Tang (5")
5 or 6 snails
I noticed a small white spot on the Butterfly and paid good attention to it
and it went away after a couple days.  I kept a close eye on all of the fish
and about three weeks later I am checking up on them and all of the fish
have a bad case of Ick.  I consulted my LFS and described my problem to
them.  They recommended that because the fish had an advanced case of Ick I
should remove the invertebrates and treat the tank itself with copper.  They
noted that I would need to have a large QT tank to treat the fish so it
would be better to keep them in the 75 gallon unless I wanted to go out and
buy a 30+ gal QT tank (only have a 15 gal QT; not large enough for 4 week
QT).
<This is the route I would go as well>
Here is where I believe I was not as informed as I could have been (I wanted
to move quick to save my fish's lives so I didn't give it a whole lot of
research).  So, I removed the inverts (snails, LR & LS) and treated the tank
with copper.
<And testing for it...>
A couple days later the problem wasn't going away so a friend
(aquarist for 5-7 years) recommended a fresh water bath.
<Uhh, what about the intermediate and resting stages in the system itself?>
  Up until this
point the fish were eating.  I gave the Yellow Tang and the Emperor Angel a
freshwater bath and returned them to the main tank (being copper treated).
I do not see any signs of Ick but I know that it is probably still present
since it's only been one week that the copper has been introduced to treat
the fish.  Since the fresh water bath both the yellow tang and angel have
not been eating.  My LFS reminded me to stabilize the temperature in the
tank (which I am doing 79-82F) and make sure I am not over feeding my fish.
I am feeding the fish formula two flakes, frozen food (angel fish formula
with brine, mysis, etc.) and pellets, alternating foods on different days.
The angel pretty much spends most of its time in a corner while all the
other fish swim around.  I am considering isolating the two (or at least the
angel) in another tank and try to QT it in there.  Other than that I am out
of ideas.  I am worried that they will continue to not eat and become weak
and die.  Any insights/recommendations you can give me would be greatly
appreciated.
Thanks,
Mazi
<Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
and on to the many linked files above... you are in need of a thorough understanding of Cryptocaryoniasis... the need for testing for copper... Do be aware that your livestock are in imminent mortal danger. Bob Fenner>

The use of Vertaid
Hi guys,
<Ash>
Thanks for the many helpful FAQs you have on the site
and while I found a couple of them concerning Vertaid
I would like some clarification.
<Quinine hydrochloride and Malachite green>
I have nine fishes that are all fine except my emperor
angel, in that it seems to have white spot or marine
velvet and the others have no suspicious markings. I'm
not certain it has a disease because the spots don't
seem pronounced as if parasites on the body but there
are many greyish white spots mostly over the top part
of the fish and a few on it's pectoral fins. It's
eating normally and not displaying any other symptoms
like scratching etc. Anyway to my query which is,
should I go ahead and use the Vertaid my LFS guy
assured me would work in conjunction with tri-sulfa
tablets just to be sure? The Vertaid is to get the
parasites to drop from the fish and the tri-sulfa
tablets are to kill it after that says the LFS guy.
I'd prefer to do a hyposalinity treatment but it would
be a problem setting up a QT suitable for all fish. I
read on another query about Vertaid one of you
advised just treating the fish with spots in a QT but
everywhere else I've read it says ALL fish must be
treated.
<If all supposedly affected, yes>
The LFS guy assured me it was safe to use in
a reef system
<Mmm, no... Please read on WWM, elsewhere re Malachite Green>
and the fish should be fine but I am
very cautious in adding any meds to the show tank.
<You are wise here>
Sorry for the long question. I hope you can help.
Regards,
         Ashley Cooper.
<Hard to guess here... I would not add anything to your/my main tank however... Though the system may well be parasitized itself... You have enough at stake to set-up, utilize separate quarters, carefully observe your livestock... What you describe may not be external, treatable with the means suggested... I urge caution, careful observation... with the fish livestock separated/leaving the main tank fallow, absent of fish life. Bob Fenner>

Fallow Tank Questions (Parasitic Infections) 5.1.05
Hello,
<Hello! Ryan with you today.>
We are new to the marine aquarium scene and your site has certainly been a huge help to us. Extremely comprehensive and up to now I have found all the answers to my questions and then some.
Our current situation is that we have had to move our 2 clowns, 1 Singapore Angel, 1 blue/green chromis and a yellow chromis out of our 55 gal. tank to a bare bottomed QT treated with copper for what we believe to be ich or velvet. Being so new, we are having a hard time distinguishing between the two. Prior to adding them to the QT we did a freshwater/Methylene blue dip.
However, we still have 4 turbo snails and a peppermint shrimp in the main tank. Are either of those susceptible to whatever our fish have?
<No, they can remain in the fallow tank, as the parasite cannot use them as a host.>
Does leaving a tank fallow mean to remove all life? I don't really have anywhere to put the snails or shrimp as I do not think they would tolerate copper. Backing up a bit, we have had negative readings for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, so all is well there, but we recently had a major outbreak of red slime algae- which I believe must have been due to overfeeding.
<Also common with new systems. Will subside with time, controlled nutrients.>
We fed them what they could consume in 2-5 minutes, but doing it 3x a day- and I believe they are messy feeders as well. In any event, we are still trying to get rid of it. It was right about the same time we had the outbreak that the angel was covered with the "dusting" of white spots, cloudy eyes. Then we noticed the chromis acting strangely as well- darting, scratching. The yellow one
even seems to be showing signs of dropsy as she just sits on the bottom with a bloated belly and has stopped eating. Is all this just coincidence or are they related- the slime, ich and dropsy? 
<Signs of stress, from both the livestock and the ecosystem. With this livestock list, you should have a large tank with a strong skimmer.>
Needless to say, after a couple of months of harmony- things went south literally overnight. After reading your FAQ's on protein skimmers, we have come to realize that our Skilter 250 is not doing ANYTHING and is essentially a POC- after 2 months we have yet to even produce foam- so I know something is wrong there! While I'm battling the red slime- what do I feed my shrimp?
<Hikari Crab Pellets work well, have a variety of nutrients.>
My snails seem to be doing ok as far as food as they graze all over the live rock and tank walls.  Also, as far as our QT- should we be treating the fish with anything else besides the copper?
<Yes, a water change daily, siphoned from the bottom of the tank.>
The angel has some redness around her side fins- which we can't find any info on. 
<Stress signs should fade with the infection.>
We used water from our established tank, but the
filter is brand new (and not a bio-wheel). How do we keep the bacteria levels ok so we don't get ammonia and nitrite build up?
<With the water changes, daily. In quarantine, the medication typically prohibits a true biological filter, so do not rely on it. Just keep a close eye on nitrate, and change the water when readable.>
How frequently do we have to do water changes in our QT? We are using "Copper Safe"- do we redose when we do water changes to keep levels optimum? 
<Yes, keep a copper test on hand, and keep the level within the manufacturer's specs.>
The package says you don't have to do water changes, but that just doesn't sound right to me.
<Yikes...Good intuition.>
Sorry for all these questions; we thoroughly appreciate your expert assistance!
<Not a problem! It should be an easy fix, and in 4-6 weeks, you are back in business. Cheers, Ryan>

Sick angel? And Wisdom on Thalassoma lucasanum
Dear Crew,
<Hi there>
I have a Pygmy Coral Beauty Angel and a few days after I bought him, I notice white spots appearing on it. They are random all over the fish. They might be raised or on the skin, but the fish is always swimming through the rocks that I can never get a good look. I have not seen the fish scratch itself, swim unusually, show any signs of stress, or lose any color. The strange thing is, the spots appear at about 6 or 7 o'clock each night and last until the morning, but when I get home at about 4:00, the spots are gone. Could this be ich or some other disease?
<Is almost assuredly Cryptocaryon... good description of a case/situation in which the parasite is gaining ground during the day, cycling off at night>
I have read on your site that sometimes pods will attach to fish, could this be happening? 
<Highly unlikely>
At about 6:00 the sun goes down, and so the room will get a little darker, even though I have a light on the tank. I know that pods become more active at night when there is less light, so, I didn't know if that slight change in light would be enough to leave the rocks the angel is always swimming through and attach to her. Sorry I can't send you a picture, but I don't have my digital camera that works to photo my fish with me. 
On a better note, I have seen pictures of the beautiful Thalassoma lucasanum or Paddlefin Wrasse. I have not found much info about it on your site or others. I have some questions about it, 
1) Are they ok to be kept single?
2) What do they eat?
3) Will the wrasse be compatible with my current fish (2 perculas, orchid Dottyback, coral beauty angel, Huma Huma trigger, spotted Hawkfish)?
4) How hardy/ easy to keep are they?
<Yes, most all meaty foods, likely yes, and about medium>
And if you have any other information I might need to know to keep one, please let me know.
<I would be studying re ich/crypt... looking into a treatment/quarantine tank... removing, treating all fish livestock... and the rationale for these actions... on WWM. Bob Fenner> 

Infected tank: Ich 3/25/05
Thanks for your reply Anthony! I'm a little confused. I will need to be changing out my sandbed and will be taking out all of the rock and coral and using new sand.
<Yikes! If this is because the tank/sand is "infected" then I assure you that there is no need for it! You can never sterilize your tank... the sand/rocks, water, etc will always have pathogenic or potentially pathogenic organisms in it that can flare>
I would be cleaning the tank out good before I put the sand and rock/coral back in . If all of the fish are in the 55QT, and the main tank goes fishless for 6 weeks or so wouldn't all of the ich in the main tank be gone? 
<Nope... the numbers just wane... and the fish themselves are never fully "cured" from such diseases. They are simply immuno-boosted to resist what little is still on them/in the water, etc>
I wouldn't put the other fish back in the tank until all spots were gone for about 4-6 weeks using hyposalinity.
<that is all good indeed>
Am I missing something here?
<Yes... overreacting on the substrate issue my friend>
If I just QT'd the Tang by herself and after the hyposalinity treatment I put her back in the main tank with the rest of the fish wouldn't she just get reinfected all over again?
<That potential is always there in every tank... focus instead on feeding well (B12, Selcon, Vita-Chem supplements), maintaining very stable temperature (two heaters... not flux of 3+F daily), and good water quality of course>
Sorry to bother you again, but Thanks, Cindy
<It's no bother at all my friend... best of luck/life to you :) Anthony>

New to marines, crypt
Hi,
<Good morning here>
We recently started our salt water fish tank. We have encountered marine ich in the process. We have gotten a 29 gal tank to start as a quarantine tank.
<Good>
What type of filter do we need??? I was thinking of a canister filter like Eheim.
<Could do... actual set-up info. is posted on WWM... need a heater as well...>
It's a setup tank for freshwater, so it's got the hood, heater, freshwater filter, etc. Any advice you can give us would be welcome.
<Posted... Please see the index here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/MarInd3of6.htm scroll down to "Disease Prevention"...>
We bought the salt water tank used and it was already setup and moved it. It was already setup and we added more fish and now we have ich and we're very sad. PLEASE HELP!!!
<Please go to the section on Marine Ich... http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm - read the articles, FAQs files... per your circumstances, devise a treatment strategy and engage! Feel like Cap'n Kirk this AM>
The fish that has ich right now are, Raccoon Butterfly, Sailfin Tang, and Yellow Tang. But there's 4 Green Chromis and a Percula Clown that appeared to be fine.
<The system has "it"... all fishes will>
The tank has live sand and a Hermit Crab. We will setup the quarantine tank and treat them as soon as we hear from you. Thanks for any advice!!!
Sincerely,
Michael
<Read, think, act. Bob Fenner> 

QT, going fallow, and invertebrates
I asked you before about my display tank (FOWLR) which has been infected by velvet, I'm following your advice by making it go "fallow", I already quarantined the fish and treating with copper,  but I have 2 question, the first one; should I remove also my 4 Turbo snails & 2 scarlet shrimps which
are in the display tank right now?<If you let the tank go fallow for 6 to 8 weeks then no.  Otherwise, Yes.>  And the second question; does the live rock consider also as a velvet host because of the life inside it?  In this case should I keep it also outside of the display tank.  Again, there is nothing I can say to thank you and all the crew in this amazing website, thanks, Maged
<Maged, The Velvet will be in the tank and will not live if there is no host for the parasite.  6 to 8 weeks will be long enough for the tank to "cleanse" itself.  Good Luck MikeB.>

Battling ICK
Well here goes:
<Okay>
My question is can ICK show up 1 hour after infestation?
<Yes>
I have been keeping my tank empty of fish for over 1 month. The fish at the LFS have been in her tank by themselves for at least 2 weeks with no ICK. I bring them home and acclimate them to my tank and after 1 hour they are covered with spots. The question I have is could this ICK have come from my tank?
<Yes... raising temperature, lowering specific gravity can help speed along Cryptocaryon development, loss of pathogenicity in the absence of fish hosts>
I had a outbreak where my fish died a month ago so I left my tank fallow for over 30 days. I put 2 fish in tonight and after 1 hour the Domino Damsel has spots and the Coral Beauty has some to. Did this come from my tank?
<Mmm, maybe from/on the new livestock... but possibly from the tank, yes>
Thanks for your help
Jay
<Bob Fenner>

How "Fallow" Should A Tank Go?
Hi everybody,
<Scott F. here today!>
there is nothing I can say can express my feelings about your
Excellent Web site which is really the No.1 reference for all Fish
lovers.
<Thanks for the kind words! We're happy to bring it to you every day!>
I had a Velvet in my display tank (FOWLR) , I moved the fish to a
quarantine tank treating with copper and it's going fine but I'm
afraid that velvet still exist in my display tank. My question is, if I removed the water & rock from my display tank and leave it to dry for a day or two, is this will guarantee removing any
kind of parasite permanently or I need to do something else ( there is a 2 inch sand& crush corals bed should I remove this also)? Your fast reply is very important to me
Thanks
Yours Faithfully,
Maged
<Well, Maged, if it were me- I'd let the tank run "fallow" without fishes, for a bout a month and a half. There's no guarantee- but that length of time can assure that the majority of the surviving causative protozoa are eliminated. There is no 100% guarantee, short of emptying the tank, drying everything out and cleaning the tank- and starting over with new rock and sand. I'd try the fallow technique first. Let me know if you have any other questions! Regards, Scott F.>

Parasite killing tank
Hello- <Hi Jason, MacL here today with you>
I've been reading your site, and it's very helpful. <We all thank you> However, I can't find
anything that sounds a lot like what happened to my fish.  I have a 30 gallon tank, that I had a blue-green Chromis and two hermit crabs in.  I purchased a false Percula and two turbo snails.  Let me add, ever since my tank cycled, I had no traces of Nitrates, Nitrites or Ammonia with a pH of
8.3, this was confirmed at my LFS. Two days later, the clown started "scratching" and running into things in the tank.  He had some white "ich" looking spots on him early in the morning that would disappear by the afternoon on day one. Day two I treated with malachite green, and performed
a freshwater dip (I couldn't remove him from the tank b/c I don't have a quarantine tank, lesson learned). When I got home from work the morning of day three he was very pale appearing and was hemorrhaging in spot under his skin and losing scales. He died later that day. The next day my Chromis was infected and died the fourth day, along with my snails, however the crabs lived (leg legged hermit). <How strange, not sure that snails would die from ich though> I first thought this was ich, but it killed so fast. <Ich does depend on the level of infestation, might have been a different type of parasite. Perhaps Marine Velvet, which is tough, tough, tough.> Now that everything except my crabs are dead, how do I "treat" my tank. <My suggestion would be to let the tank go fallow. Keep it empty for four weeks before you add anything back in. Obviously what you had was quite deadly Jason and the truth is its best to keep things empty for that time to make sure that it doesn't have the chance to reproduce in that tank.>  I want to make sure my tank is ok before introducing fish again.  Jason

What to do? Live rock from an ich infested system
>Hello Crew:
>>Hello Eric.
>I have not written to you guys for a long time. This time, I have 2 main questions. My friends 150 gallon tank is fully infested with ich, we noticed it today on the powder blue, and emperor angel.
>>Yep, once one's got it, the whole system should be considered infected.
>His system is reef and has live rock and sand and a couple pieces of corals. Fishes included (powered blue, emperor angel adult, 2 juv Koran, purple tang,
clown tang and a Red Sea angel).
>>I call "overcrowded system"!  Doesn't matter *why* he's got two Koran juvies in there, what he needs to know is that the peace won't last long upon commencement of the maturation process.  Also, do watch those tangs if they're presently small/juveniles, too.  For the animals he has, he should be housing them in a system at least DOUBLE the size they're in, in my honest opinion.  Why do I bring this up?  Because, overcrowding is a really good way to get disease going.
>Fishes are still eating and swimming good with no rapid breathing/scratching.
>>Good, very good.
>Temp 82F, sal 1024, pH 8.24, NO3-10ppm, PO4=0.
>>Warmish, but good.
>Question 1:
He is determined that he only wants a fish-only system after this ordeal, the fished that we have bought has been quarantined for 14 days and showed no sign of illness. But at the end..
>>Mistake number one.. or maybe number two, after overcrowding.  Proper (and PROVED) quarantine protocol is a minimum of 30 days (and this next bit is key) DISEASE FREE.  Anyway, I can certainly understand his sentiments.
>Anyway, we are thinking about moving the live rock and corals out, leaving a thin sandbed and some crushed corals in sump.
>>That shouldn't be a problem.
>And do the copper and hyposalinity treatment in main display.
>>Uh uh. Nope.  No way.  I would not do that if I were you.  Wouldn't be prudent <in her best George B., Sr. voice>
>The reason behind is that he has a 50 gallon QT but no bacteria count, (due to previous QT period, the filter is used up and cleaned) should he do the copper and lower salt 0.001 everyday till 1.010 and temp 82F??  
>>Whoa there, big fella.  You both DO realize that if you intend to use copper (choose copper or hypo, and honestly, I urge you to try hyposalinity FIRST, but make it one or the other, not both) that it WILL KILL *ALL* nitrifying bacteria, right?
>Any better ways to do this??
>>Yep!  A brief primer, with additional reading for you stout men: First, I highly recommend he thin the herd.  I don't think I can recommend this highly *enough*, actually, because I'm sure your mother taught you, as mine did, prevention is a good thing.  So, IF he's committed to using his display to treat, then he MUST strip it down of all organic, porous material first.  This material will absorb the copper (rendering it null and void in the water column), it will harbor for this parasite (making it near impossible to eliminate), and its nitrifying bacteria WILL die off when coppered, thus making a stinking mess.
My Recommendations are as follows: (and please search the site for more comprehensive information)
*Get more containers for treating the fish with hypo OR copper (remember above preferences).  Large trash bins lined with black plastic bags work well enough for Mom here (do make sure they are NOT "anti" anything, no scent added, nothing - just plain plastic).  They may or may not need heaters (depending on your local conditions).  Filtration of some sort is needed, at least for water movement.  If it must be cheap, then air-driven sponge filters should do just fine.  If you can get it down there, Bio-Spira is an instant dose of nitrifying bacteria, otherwise, you're committed to water changes on a daily basis, which isn't so bad because using copper you have the same commitment as well.
*Make sure you have either a lab-grade float hydrometer (my preferred) or a decent refractometer, as there is no way you can otherwise make an accurate assessment of salinity - rather important when utilizing hyposalinity.
*Thin the herd!  (Did I mention he either needs to put those fish into a system of at least 300 gallons, or thin the herd?)  Thin the herd!
*Assigned reading: search for articles on ich treatment by Steven Pro, Terry Bartelme, Advanced Aquarist Online Magazine (found via reefs.org - search the database).  These will be much more detailed than what I can do here, regarding both methods of treatment.
*Consider also Formalin, generally same caveats as copper, but no test available, and do use gloves when handling.
*Let the display go fallow for 6-8 weeks at a higher temperature (82F-84F).
>Question 2:
He also wants to sell me the live rock to my new system, should I purchase the rocks?
>>ONLY if they're uncoppered.  Let him know, though, that with the fish he's got, they'll really do much better if he leaves the live rock for them.  Really.
>Is it safe if I am determined to let this new system to be fallow for at least 3 months??
>>Absolutely, mate!  
>What water parameter should I maintain during my cycle period to make sure no ich is left after this 3 months??
>>You shouldn't cycle at all, but otherwise, just maintain the normals, doing water changes as necessary, and hold at a slightly higher temp to speed up the lifecycle of the parasite.
>Question 3:
Will 84F and 1.010 salinity kill macroalgae in the new tank's sump and
coralline in the rocks??
>>Probably not the coralline, but quite possibly the macros.  In my opinion 84F is a bit high (close to those coral bleaching temps), but plenty of folks go at that with no problems whatsoever, so your choice on that.  A note on hyposalinity for treatment of ich - 1.010 is the top end of hypo, the range being 1.007 - 1.010.  However, if you're speaking simply of how to treat the rock once moved to your new display, keep it fallow (NO fish) for that period of time and nothing else need be done.
>If so, what parameter is safest yet suitable for my inhabitants during cycling?
>>Again, don't worry about a whole cycle on the live rock.  HOWEVER!  You must be sure to keep it out of your display for that 6-8 weeks I spoke of, or what I like even BETTER is the three months you mentioned.  Remember, the parasite will eventually die off sans hosts, but it has been known to last as long as 72 days.. though I believe that that would have only been attainable at significantly lower temperatures.
>Question 4:
Should I add the macroalgae after I test positive for NO3 or should I add right away?
>>Your choice.
>Question 5:
Last, when I dose Cupramine from SeaChem, I follow the bottle instruction dosage. However when I use the SeaChem test kit to test dosage, I do not get any reading, even after duplicate tests attempt.  should I trust the test kit or dosage instructions?  
>>I