Medication /bacterial supplement recommendations, Bactinettes/Nitrification, successful use of Cuprazin for Crypt and Velvet    7/25/07
Hello all. Apologies in advance for the stupidly long email.
<No worries>
I have written to offer my recommendations on a few products I have used recently whilst treating for ich/whitespot and velvet in my saltwater setup, and also a European bacterial supplement I have used and found to be very effective.
<Ah! Thank you>
I recently caused a near-wipeout of the nitrifying bacteria in my reef tank by medicating (for whitespot AND velvet) with the so-called reef-friendly Octozin by Waterlife. I have learned my lesson the hard way, and will never medicate in my display tank again.
<Alleleujah!>
Luckily, I did not lose any fish, although my torch coral and a few shrooms are still recovering, fingers crossed. My main concern was the loss of bacteria; ammonia spiked at about 2 mg/L and I didn't see much conversion to nitrites/nitrates, for obvious reasons. An avid reader of your site, I was desperate to get my hands on some Bio-Spira or similar, as Hagen's Cycle was having little effect. However, we in Europe cannot buy Bio-Spira, or certainly not by conventional means. I had seen some mention on UK websites of a product called "Bactinettes" made by the German company Soll (or Soell). These are small, 3 mm diameter gelatinous spheres, which apparently house nitrifying bacteria. They are suspended in a fluid containing ammonia, amongst other nutrients, to keep the bacteria happy! Bactinettes can be used in both freshwater and saltwater setups, although more and bigger 'doses' are required for saltwater. They must be stored at 4ºC for greatest efficacy. In some reviews I have read, when these bacteria are not kept chilled, they quickly become ineffective, so make sure your retailer is storing/shipping them correctly!
<Noted>
Upon receipt, you are advised to drain the surrounding fluid from the spheres (very important step, because as I mentioned the fluid is nutrient-rich), place spheres into a media bag, and place bag directly into the filter. In my case, I didn't have any type of filter that would be suitable, so I wedged the bag into my live rock, and aimed a powerhead obliquely at it in order to create some circulation. The idea is that the spheres 'dissolve' over a few days, releasing bacteria which then colonise your filter/live rock, and begin their metabolising miracles!
To give you an idea of how many packs are required: my tank is 200 litres. I bought 6 'portions' of Bactinettes: 2 portions were inserted on each of days 1, 3, and 9.
I must add at this juncture that I am in no way connected with this company - I just wanted to pass on my experience to other Europeans who may be looking for a bacterial supplement product which works. I should also say that I think there is no substitute for patient and natural cycling; however in my case I did not have the time (clock was a-ticking!) or capacity to do this, and I was terribly worried about my livestock. My water, within one week, during which I also saw a heavy nitrite spike, is now down to undetectable levels of ammonia and 0.1 mg/L nitrite, and counting. The nitrate load is being taken care of with a Deltec MCE 300 skimmer - also a wonderful product! The Bactinettes have been a lifesaver for my fish. I'm not going to say where I bought them from, as I'm sure everyone has the capacity to google search, and they are available from at least one online retailer in the UK, and elsewhere across Europe. I'm not expecting you to endorse the product without having used it yourselves, and it is no substitute for less desperate and more 'natural' measures! As I said, I just wanted to share my experience - this worked for me. I am going to recommend that my LFS gets some in, although I will hopefully never need to use them again!
By the way, I can also recommend Cuprazin (Waterlife) as a hospital-tank only treatment for whitespot and velvet. It brought my clowns back from the brink. I have spoken with the chemist who devised this medication, and he claimed that as well as the ubiquitous Copper Sulphate, Cuprazin also contains Malachite Green and Formalin (in what levels I do not know, but they seemed to be effective without causing any nasty side effects), and it could therefore be used as a broader spectrum treatment than CuSO4 alone. In my case, it solved a medium case of whitespot within 3 days, and a severe case of velvet within a week. I continued treatment for 15 days, at a copper concentration of approx 0.5 mg/L, in a bare-bottomed 10G hospital tank with a few pieces of PVA guttering for cover, and an bubbly airstone, heater and pump. Every day after feeding I removed 10L water by siphoning from the bottom to collect any parasites/waste, and replaced with a 'new' 10L water, to keep the ammonia levels down. On replacement of the 10L water, I added 10 more drops of Cuprazin to compensate for that which had been removed in the 'old' water. The idea is that 1 drop Cuprazin 'treats' 1 litre of water. Cuprazin is chelated, and I was worried that adding this amount every time I did a water change would mean a build-up of copper to toxic levels, but it seemed to keep my 0.5 mg copper/L constant and steady. I would definitely recommend the use of a Salifert or similar test to keep an eye on this, however. I also carried out two sets of freshwater dips, well aerated and pH and temperature adjusted (days 2 and 3), which resulted in huge amounts of mucus being expelled from the gills of both fish, and many of the whitespot parasites dropping straight off the skin of one of the fish. I managed to keep my clowns happy and calm in these dips for 17 minutes on the first try, and 10 minutes on the second attempt. I did not add methylene blue to the freshwater dip as I was worried that this would be one chemical too far! I cannot stress the importance of good aeration, temp and pH matching in freshwater dips heavily enough. These factors, in my humble opinion, are what makes or breaks the dip, and the fish! The velvet parasite was more resilient to these dips, but was soon taken care of by the Cuprazin. I tried to keep the temperature in the hospital tank fairly high (27/28ºC) and the specific gravity fairly low (1.020) during treatment. After 15 days, I continued the water changes for a couple of weeks, just without adding any more Cuprazin. Bingo! Happy, healthy clowns!
Many thanks for listening. I hope I've managed to give someone some handy advice!
Lisa, UK.
<Thank you for writing... so completely and clearly! Bob Fenner>

Tank with puffers, a moray eel and Amyloodinium (velvet) – 05/08/07
Hello <Hi Amanda.>, I believe that our tank has velvet. We have a dogface puffer, a stars-n-stripes puffer, a tiger reef eel, live rock, snails and hermit crabs. Our tank is 125 gallons. I want to use Coppersafe to clean out the whole tank. The directions say to add it only once and it treats for a whole month.
<If you treat your display tank, you will kill a lot of your beneficial bacteria. Monitor ammonia and nitrite if you treat it that way.>
I know I need to take out the live rock, snails, and hermit crabs and I need to clean out the tank very well after the treatment is over.  My questions are -
Can I leave my puffers and eel in their 125 gal tank while I am treating it?
<The moray eel should not be treated with copper, except if it shows symptoms. Puffers can be treated carefully, but bare in mind that overdosing can be lethal. It’s appropriate to get a testing kit that can be used with your copper product and to monitor the copper concentration at least once daily.>
My quarantine tank is only 25 gallons and if I stick all of them in there, besides being stressed, doesn't it defeat the purpose of the quarantine by only treating the fish?
<No. The best would be to treat the two puffers in a bare bottom quarantine tank with copper and to let the display tank run fallow for about 6 weeks (without using copper in this tank). If the moray eel does not show symptoms, I’d leave it in the display. That way you are taking the risk that the parasites may use the moray as a host, but this case is rather improbable due to the high resistance of these fish against Amyloodinium. If you do not want to take this risk, you need a second quarantine tank for the eel, which is not treated with copper.>
Do I still give them freshwater dips to get the parasite <off>, while I am treating their tank?
<Such dips can be done in severe cases to get rid of some of the parasites.>
Do I dip the eel?
<If it shows any symptoms: yes.>
How do I dip an eel?
<A bucket of well aerated, pH and temperature adjusted freshwater. Catch the eel with a net and transfer it to the bucket. If you cannot catch it with a net, lure it out into a clean bottle with a large enough opening and a piece of its favourite food and transfer it. Put a lid on the bucket. Leave it there for about half an hour to one hour. Return it to the tank.>
Do I also have to wait a month before putting the live rock and the invertebrates back in or how long do I have to wait?
<If you treat your display with copper, you should filter with fresh activated carbon after 4 weeks and hope none of the copper remains in the substrate.>
I know this needs to be treated now, but my puffers are my babies and I don't want to hurt them.
<I’d consider what I described above as the best way. Also read http://www.wetwebmedia.com/cuduration.htm and http://www.wetwebmedia.com/amylloodiniumart.htm and the related FAQs.>
I know I have a lot of questions for y'all. I would appreciate your help, so I can make my fish happy again.
<Hope they pull through.>
Thank you so much for your time.
<You are welcome. Marco.>
Sincerely, Amanda.

Quandary with Oodinium infection - 2/28/2006
Hello WWM crew!  I really love the site and have learned an enormous amount from the posts. but I didn't learn it fast enough to prevent the predicament I'm in:
<Mmmm>
I've had an outbreak of Oodinium on my 150 marine FOWLR tank for the last week.  It has already finished off my three Butterflies and I have since
created a hospital tank (20gal) and have my Rabbit fish isolated in it treating with Cupramine.  I've still got a 6in hippo tang, a smaller yellow tang and a 4 inch Naso in the main tank.
<All have to be treated...>
  The Hippo is looking pretty bad and I can tell the yellow is starting to be infected.
<All are infected... as well as the system itself>
I'm really worried that I'll lose the tangs if I don't quarantine and treat but I've only got the one 20 gal hospital that has been running for 3 days and I don't think I can fit all 4 fish in it.  Should I (1) let the three tangs fight the infection and hope they survive (I have 2 cleaner shrimp in the tank working
overtime.) at this point all are eating pretty well)  And if they don't let the tank go fallow to let the organisms die and start over....or (2) make a
makeshift hospital out of a Rubbermaid container and buy another cheap filter and heater and hope I can cycle fast enough to not kill the fish from
ammonia and then treat with Cupramine.....and let the tank fallow for a month.  I'm not sure the tangs would survive either way.....any thoughts or
advice would be greatly appreciated!
<I'd opt for the second approach if you ever intend to introduce other fish life here>
Which do you think is the lesser of two evils?  I'm really sick as this tank was going along great till I put in a maroon clown from my LFS without quarantine (duh! Never again even from my LFS its 30 days of isolation from now on!) My LFS says a Rubbermaid tub won't work as an isolation because the plastic is too porous and will absorb
the copper and the other stuff in the water and get nasty?
<Mmm, no... needs to be tested/measured daily, likely re-applied... Water changed to dilute wastes>
How long would on expect the Cupramine to start working on the rabbit fish. I've dosed it twice on startup like the bottle says and am checking copper
levels and they are about .5mg/L.
<... too much. See WWM re... 0.35 mg/l or ppm tops>
Rabbit was darting around the tank like he was insane. Is that normal too? (he's been in full dose of Cupramine about 24 hours?
Sorry for the dumb questions.. just looking for some advice.. realizing that it may be too late anyways..
Thanks
George W
<Much to consider, and a need for immediate action. Bob Fenner>

Re: quandary with Oodinium infection    3/2/06
Thanks so much for you quick reply...... I'm taking your advice and creating a temp 30gal hospital tank right now.  Couple of quick follow ups if you would mind too terribly....I've got the SeaChem copper test kit but I have a hard time telling the shades of blue apart...any suggestions on a easier to read kit?
<I would look to the Hach and LaMotte companies here>
My ammonia is about 1ppm right now in my 20 gallon hospital...what is the level of ammonia that would require me to start water changes.  
<Posted... I would keep this under 1.0 ppm>
If I have to do daily water changes to keep the toxins in check, can I introduce new water for the changes or must I use tank water?
<The latter is best/better... if not infested of course>
I really appreciate your help.....were all very fortunate to have dedicated knowledgeable folks like you to give us guidance while we learn the ropes....
George W
<I do wish the ding dang trade would adopt a prophylactic pH adjusted FW dipping policy... most all the Amyloodinium and Cryptocaryon problems would/could/should be avoided thus. Bob Fenner>

Time For Another Round of Treatment?    5/4/06
Hello!
<Hi there! Scott F. here today!>
I have had several fish in quarantine now for five weeks. I diagnosed them as having Amyloodinium, based on the appearance and behavior of the fish-- pinhead sized white spots and scratching on everything in sight.
<Could also be good old-fashioned Cryptocaryon, in the absence of other symptoms, such as difficulty breathing, sloughing of mucus, etc. Amyloodinium kills very rapidly. Regardless, the medical approach is similar for both illnesses.>
They have been treated with Cupramine (Seachem's answer to copper's down sides) for  better than three weeks at the recommended concentration. The problem I'm having is that as I observe the fish to make sure the parasites are gone, I continue to see some of the fish scratching on the rocks and sand. There are no other signs of parasites and haven't been for these last three weeks.
<Ahh.. minor criticism here. I would highly recommend NOT using a substrate in a "hospital" tank. In addition to "sucking up" medications (making it tough to maintain a proper therapeutic dose), substrates provide refuge for the causative protozoa to anchor in during their free-swimming stage. This is a bit over-simplified, but you get the idea. Next time, go completely bare bottom in a treatment tank.>
Everyone is apparently healthy except for the scratching. Do you have any ideas as to what's happening here. I'm hesitant to put fish back in the display tank. Thanks!
Scott
<I agree, Scott. At this point, I'd back off on the treatment for a while, as continuous exposure to meds can be tough on the fishes. After about a week off meds, I'd consider embarking on another round of treatment if symptoms persist. Regular water changes will ensure a healthy environment, and frequent feeding will help the fishes maintain the energy they need to get better. Continue close observation, and monitor dosage carefully. Good luck! Regards, Scott F.>

- Parasite Problems -
Man I'm really bugging here!
My tank broke out with velvet so I moved all the fish to a quarantine tank.  I treated with the recommended dose of CopperSafe and the disease (velvet) kind of went away for a while (still a couple spots on fish). Today I looked at the tank and my powered blue and Dogface puffer are covered fully again with velvet (9 days later).
Here is my q-tank setup:
20 gallon tank, sponge filter, canister filter: Fluval 404 with (Fluval rings, CPR bio bale, and the regular sponges).  And a heater, light etc.
Now I have the tank at 1.020 and at 81 degrees.
I used to have it at 1.018 but when I saw that the velvet was disappearing I raised it again since the fish were stressed it seemed.
Inside the tank I have a few flowerpots and two "round river rocks" to hold them down.
I concluded that the copper might be being absorbed somewhere and for that reason the velvet is coming back, where do you think this is happening? I am sure to re-add the proper amount of copper when I do a water change so I know that is not the problem. <Well, copper in this case needs to be dosed constantly - maintaining a constant level of copper. For most copper solutions, this means adding a little every day or every other day - the instructions should be your best guide for this.>
Is even a little copper toxic to velvet or does this devil need full on strength. <It needs to be at a constant level - use a test kit to be certain.>
I am going to continue freshwater dips (even though it stresses my fish like crazy), and maybe lower the salinity down.
Also it is really hard finding a copper test kits around here, I am going to order it online: could you suggest a test kit please... <Sera, FasTest, LaMotte - all very good.> possibly the one that you use when you treat your sick fish with copper...
<Cheers, J -- >

Treating Sick Tangs...
Hi guys.
<Hi there! Scott F. with you today!>
I believe I have Amyloodinium in my 125 gal. tank. I have already lost 3 large fish to this illness that I believe I must have gotten off some live rock I put in. I have a 7" Naso tang and a 4" yellow tang that I am worried about losing. They have both been moved to a different tank and have each had 3 30 min freshwater dips with Meth. blue and the salinity has been dropped while the temp. has been increased.
<A potentially effective technique...>
They are still eating but far from acting normal. The Naso has a very dark grey color to him. I seem to recall reading that tangs do not take copper sulfate very well and might be better to not use it.
<That is correct. Good pickup on your part!>
If this is so, is there anything else I can do to save these fish??
<I'd continue with the regimen that you have started, augmented with a Formalin-based product. This stuff is not without its drawbacks, too. Read and follow the manufacturer's directions to the letter, and DO NOT add it to the display tank. It is a highly effective medication if used properly.>
Also ---my 125 is not fallow except for some crabs, snails, and shrimp -- with the temp at 85 how long do I have to wait until I can put my fish back in, and how will I know that they are not still carrying the parasite and thus re-infecting my tank again? Thanks, Diggy
<Well, Diggy- I'd let the tank run without fishes for at least 4 weeks-six weeks would be even better. You've already went to the trouble of removing the fish from the display, so stay the course and wait it out. Conduct all normal tank maintenance (water changes, etc.) during the fallow period. Hang in there and you'll beat this thing! Good luck! Regards, Scott F>

- Fallow Advice -
First I would like to thank you all for the help you give to us, it is the best website for any aquarist.
Now to the problem, I have 2 saltwater tanks 25 and 75 gallons, I have lost a chunk of money due to Amyloodinium, literally clean up almost all my stock, now I am trying to save the rest of my guys.
Both of my tanks are infected; in your web site I read about a similar case where you told him to keep the tank without any hosts for 30 day (eliminate all the states of the parasite), I am going to do that. <I'd recommend 45 to 60 days if you can do it.>
I set up a quarantine tank (10 gallons), I have 2 Clownfishes, 1 damsel and 1 porcupine puffer (3/2'') (I know it will grow but I have a future tank planed for him).
Are too many fishes to stay on the 10 gallons tank for 21 days? (The puffer is not aggressive at all)
<You will need to be doing very frequent water changes - perhaps 25-50% a day.>
Can I use the same filter that I am using on the small tank or I need a new one just for the quarantine tank? <You can use the same filter.>
I got Cupramine from Seachem, I am not sure if the copper will stay on the filter? They say it is easy to eliminate with active carbon, what do you think? <Activated carbon should get most all of it.>
The other possibility is to treat them in the 25 gallons but I have all decoration, gravel, etc. (I don't think is a good idea). <Let it go fallow - you can keep invertebrates in there - perhaps a cleaner shrimp.>
Another issue is, what should I do with my snails, there are only 2 but I fell bad killing them, I know I cannot treat them with copper; are they carriers? <Safe to leave behind in the main tanks.>
Thanks for all your help and I am sorry about the amount of questions.
JIAM
<Cheers, J -- >

Velvet Strikes Again?
I have spent all day reading your site and I am totally convinced the reason all of my fish are dead is from velvet.  I took 3 dead fish (flame angel, blue tang, yellow eye tang) to my fish place and they couldn't tell anything, but everyone swore that I had no disease in my tank.  The rest of my fish died, and they said it may be due to raising the temp. as they recommended.  
<Hmm...>
I knew they were wrong, they told my husband to bring home 4 damsels, they went in last night, they are dead today.  
<What lousy advice, huh? Not sure what the point of "experimenting" with the lives of 4 other fishes was for>
We have 5 hermit crabs and a fire shrimp alive.
First, do the crabs and shrimp get this disease?  
<Assuming that you're referring to Amyloodinium ("Velvet"), no they will not.>
Second, I just want to let the tank go empty for 8 weeks and let it end naturally instead of adding copper.  Is this logical?  Will this get truly get rid of the problem?
<It's a great treatment, IMO. The "fallow tank" technique can significantly reduce the parasitic population in your tank, which can help otherwise healthy fishes resist future infection>
I thought I had done everything just right, and I cannot take any more dead fish.
<I can understand that>
I let normally my fish people hold my fish for a couple of weeks before bringing them home and make sure they are okay.
<Really, quarantine should be done at home, by you- and should last 3-4 weeks. It's a very simple practice, and you'll enjoy much greater control than the fish store can...Do read up on this practice on the WWM site (including a basic "how to" by yours truly, which can answer most of your questions regarding the process). It will make a huge difference for you>
However, my husband decided he had to have two fish right off the truck and bam, here we are.  Please help. Dawn
<Well, Dawn- it sounds like you have the right idea. Leaving the tank fallow and treating the afflicted fishes in a separate tank is a highly effective practice. Read about it on the WWM site! With patience, careful observation, and strict adherence to quarantine in the future, you should beat this thing and achieve great success. Good luck! Regards, Scott F>

Velvet Strikes Again? (Pt. 2)
Thank you for the positive feedback.
<My pleasure- that's what we're here for>
I still need to know, will this rid my tank of the velvet or is this something we are hopelessly subject to fight forever?
<Not if you are patient enough to use a full one-to-two-month fallow period. This length of time without host fishes can seriously interrupt te life cycle of the causative parasites...>
Thank you so much!  I did contact another fish dealer and they recommend 1/2 water change, copper treatment, a filter to take out the copper, and then "you will be fine."  I want this gone forever.
<Well- copper can certainly eradicate the parasite, but if you ever intend to keep inverts in the tank, you will have to wait a very long time to remove all of the copper from the tank. It will continue to leach from the rocks and substrate for some time. Sure, Poly Filter and other chemical media can remove a lot from the water, but it will still be there. It is also potentially difficult to maintain an effective therapeutic level of copper in the tank, given the potential for coral, substrate, etc. to absorb it.>
Yes, we will set up a QT tank, we have a friend that is willing to give one to us.
<Excellent. A much better way to eradicate this illness. Treat in the separate tank. Good luck! Regards, Scott F.>

Velvet disease problem
hi BOB,
sorry for asking you so much questions again. I am really sad.
from live rock tank to artificial rock and this 3 month daily I am cracking my head on how to have my fishes recover from disease. so I hope you understand. 
<I do>
worst still I introduced sera internal parasite treatment to my tank. ( sera Baktapur direct ) w/o really go through the instruction and my no2 rise to the highest. with no choice I transfer my fishes to two fiber glass and did 70% water change daily. I am very tired and even felt sick (I would lose my immune first than them). now the no2 decrease to >0.1 mg and I introduced them back to the tank. and they now contracted to Oodinium pillularis hope it is correct spelling. <Close enough> first I used ozone no help, 2nd I used INTERPET velvet and slime away and still no help. now my l! ! Last try is sera Oodinopur A contain 0.070g of copper chloride and 3.400g of copper sulfate.
<This should work>
taking risk again and hope that I won't harm the filtration
bacterial. my ozone, U.V and skimmer are off. how long will it take to cure this disease and I heed your advice and leave the lymph alone. pls help me.
my tank consist of
1. queen angel 6"
2. passer angel 6"
3. French angel 4"
4. Asfur angel 4"
5. Maculosus angel 5"
6. blue lip stick angel 4"
7. emperor angel 3.5 "
8.purple tang 4"
9. Sohal tang 4"
10. Spanish hog 5"
11. rainbow wrasses 7"
12. Heniochus acuminatus 4"
all of them had Oodinium.
thanks BOB, your advice will immediately help to solve my headache and I will follow accordingly.
<Do follow the directions on the Oodinopur packaging, for the entire two week treatment, and lower your specific gravity to about 1.017, and elevate the system's temperature to approximately 82F... do these last two over a period of the next few days (not all at once), and do what else you can to assure good aeration, circulation. The treatment puts an added stress, increases mucus production, and the elevated temperature decreases gas solubility while increasing metabolism... hence the need for more aeration. After the two week treatment (with testing every day for copper levels), do place two kinds of cleaners in your system. A Lysmata shrimp species and perhaps some Gobiosoma gobies. Bob Fenner>

Velvet disease problem
hi bob,
can I ask you a few question? <You've just asked one... certainly you may.>
1, what happen if the nitrite goes up (during treatment of copper) I have no other tank.
<You might lose your livestock if it's too much, too soon... What you might most likely do is execute a very large water change with pre-made water, introduce some nitrifying bacteria (like on a conditioned sponge filter, other "old media"...), increase aeration>
2, when and how to raise the sg and temp now currently at sg 1.017 and 28 - 30 deg?
<When your treatment period is all over (two weeks or so)... and by doing water changes with more dense water... and slowly lowering the thermostat setting on your heater(s)>
3, will I observe any difference from my fishes with treatment of copper and sg 1.017at 83f?
<Hmm, they will cure faster... and likely breathe much more rapidly...>
4, is 0,3 to 0.5 ppm copper acceptable for tank and is ppm and mg the same.
<Better check the manufacturer's recommendation... is this a chelated copper product AND a chelated copper test kit? )0.5ppm for free copper is high... Parts per million and milligrams per liter are equivalencies>
5, after treatment I intend to change 30% of water and start using ozone and u/v together to improve the water quality
what is your recommendation?
<For what? This should be fine... but do read over the many pieces on the www.wetwebmedia.com site that deal with set-up and maintenance... Live rock, a lighted sump/refugium, growing macro-algae... many ways to improve water...>
6, I notice when I added copper or lower the sg the fish rubs against object and flicker why?
<Irritating to them. Good observation.>
7, their body look dry now and will they produce back protection slime ?
<Of a certainty, yes>
8, I can not afford to lose them anymore.
<Then don't>
9, thank you.
<You're certainly welcome. Bob Fenner>

Velvet disease problem
hi bob,
will copper destroy nitrifying bacterial?
<Yes, it can. One of the reasons for monitoring aspects of nitrogen cycling while using this, or any other treatment>
I notice that after adding copper to the tank, the skin of my angel fish looks dry like lose of slime.
<Wow, good observation... Copper compounds can do this, and increase mucus production>
how long will the Oodinium be disappear with copper treatment and raise of temp and sg?
<For most cases a week to two... best to wait out the entire two weeks to be sure>
will the copper treatment degrade the water quality? thanks bob.
<Yes, definitely, but this is part of "the cost" of treating the system... and you're welcome. Bob Fenner>

Oodinium
Bob, 
I know your a very busy man
<Everyone has exactly the same amount of time...>
but I hope you would please lend an ear to my plight with Oodinium. I have the following: 
Setup 
Two bare bottom 29 gallon tanks stacked with common wet dry. 
8 Watt UV on bottom tank. 
150 Watt heater - My fish room is over insulated and runs hot. 
1 Air stone in each tank. 
Occupants 
Top tank: Two 2" Amphiprion Sebae clowns. These are the real Sebae not A. clarkii 
<Ahh, a rarity, as you know>
Bottom Tank: One 3" Amphiprion chrysopterus. I started with the large female and 4 small males but lost all the males to what I perceived to be Oodinium. 
<I'd bet the female didn't help...>
Steps 
Dropped SG to 1.010 over two days. 
<This is very sudden>
Eliminated overhead lighting. 
Dropped temperature to 75 degrees Fahrenheit. 
<Hmmm, not raised? Your thesis?>
Treated with formalin for 5 days. 
<Oh, oh...>
Current Scenario 
All fish are feeding. 
The chrysopterus can be seen flashing from time to time. Her breathing is not too bad but not what I would consider optimal. After the SG drop external signs of the parasite disappeared. 
The largest Sebae is in dire straits! This is the fish I am most concerned about. 
Her breathing is labored, mouth open, and her pectoral fins are clamped. 
She swims in a fashion I call the "waggle of death". I did notice a white patch on one of her gills. It seems to streak down the anterior portion of the gill plate. She is feeding very well which is cause for some hope. 
<This is likely directly due to the formalin treatment... why formalin?>
I'm assuming I have Oodinium as the aforementioned chrysopterus showed heavy external signs of it at passing. Despite the mentioned treatments the symptoms on the remaining fish persist. I've cured other clowns of this ailment just by dropping the SG to 1.010 for 3 months. That has not worked in this case so I'm curios about my methods or additional possibilities. 
Thank you in advance for your guidance. 
<Thank you for writing. Please take the time to read over (there's a bunch) of the pieces on Clownfishes, Marine Parasitic Disease, Copper Use... and related FAQs files posted on the site: www.WetWebMedia.com.
In the meanwhile, do increase aeration to both these systems and go very slow on feeding these animals... they are burned by the formalin treatment... and food processing is difficult for them. Bob Fenner>

Marine Velvet-Second Outbreak
Well, it looks like I am into my second outbreak of Marine Velvet in the last four months. (six fish lost the first time) I suspect I got it from not quarantining fish at the start. My fault. 
<All too common... real trouble in our interest... and a principal reason why folks leave the hobby>
I have treated the whole tank with copper for a period of about four weeks and all fish seem to be cured and seemed to stay that way for over two weeks. As I dropped copper levels below .01 it appears to be reappearing.
<Is the copper product you use at a "physiological dose" during this entire two week period? I don't think so>
(it has taken another 3 weeks or so to drop copper levels even with carbon and massive water changes because it is a fairly large tank). 
<Just use activated carbon, and/or Polyfilter and it will disappear quickly...>
Bummer At this point should I retreat with copper or drain and freshwater rinse the whole tank or just let it go fallow for a month or two with salt water? 
<I would start again... treating the fishes in a separate system...>
Naturally I have just rebuilt stock to 10 fish or so. 
<What? Hopefully you are joking....>
All other water parameters are dead on. I have read that some Marine Velvet is extremely resistant to treatment. I can treat with copper again but I am not sure that will effect a cure?
<Please read over the entire "Maintenance" sub index on the www.WetWebMedia.com site, including all disease and treatment and FAQ sections. Bob Fenner>

Amyloodinium in my display tank
I recently finished conditioning my first saltwater aquarium and have added a Porcupine Puffer, a Yellow and a Blue Tang. Within the last couple days both the Tangs have shown what I believe to be Amyloodinium.
I added a full dose of Cupramine today and wanted your professional opinion before continuing on, should I:
a) Continue with the treatment of Cupramine for the 3+ weeks and see where I am.
b) Fresh water dip all fish and move them to a quarantine (new water, filter, Cupramine, and methylene blue) tank and restart my whole display system from scratch.
Choice B does not sound like fun to me, but I know that Amyloodinium can live in the substrate and I would rather rid my tank of them now than leave the possibility of further infestation if Cupramine in the display tank won't rid the problem.
<Of the two choices the first is best... neither are what I would do however. Please see our principal site, WetWebMedia.com re Marine Parasitic Disease, and the many sections, FAQs files therein...>
If I need to sanitize the display tank what is the best course of action? I have a 72gal reef ready with a bio-ball sump, and a Berlin protein skimmer. How do I sanitize the bio balls, substrate (replace it?
Or bleach it?). I appreciate your help with my dilemma.
<These are all talked over as well as many questions, need to know factual material that is not live to your conscious as yet... Take your time here and carefully consider what is written on WWM... we'll chat soon. Bob Fenner>
Thank you,
Mark Hill

Oodinium - medication
Dear Anthony, as per your advise I started freshwater dips for both fishes affected by Oodinium. 
<excellent>
I still keep the SeaCure treatment for the aquarium. 
<fine...may still be mildly therapeutic>
The Acanthurus lineatus looks much better after 3 dips of 3 minutes each. 
<very good!>
The Blue Tang has still the marks on him but he looks better. 
<yes...many fish look rough after a dip(s) as the wounds from the parasites remain and some fish are secreting unsightly mucous. Have faith that it is all for the better>
I made these dips following the instructions of the book "the conscientious..." but I did not have any Formalin or Methylene blue , so I just used freshwater (dechloraminated, PH and temperature adjusted) with some SeaCure in it. Still I believe that it helped!
<yes... the freshwater is the main thing>
Tonight I made a 20% water change and I checked the blue coral in a bucket with water: it is not the cause of the bad smell.
<yes... we didn't think so. Likely the accumulated organics from the lack of skimmer/carbon and the fish not eating quite as well>
I discussed with my retailer today and he is interested in having Formalin and Methylene blue in his shop. I showed him the photos of both medications in the book "The contentious..." and he was impressed by the book. He told me to order one for him too, and I will do it soon (I bought mine from Amazon.co.uk). Could you please tell me the exact description as well as the manufacturer of these two medications? 
<they are very common medications that are probably in your country for other applications. Formalin is Formaldehyde gas in solution (you want 38-42% solution). It is used as a preservative in laboratories among other things. It must be handled carefully by humans (carcinogenic) like with most medications. It should also never be allowed to chill (below 50F temp it precipitates and turns in to toxic paraformaldehyde). Anyway, if you prefer to buy a safer product of either... look for the "Aquarium Products" brand of medications. If they are available, they have all. Aquarium Pharmaceuticals are also vendors of such medications... you can contact them at : http://www.aquariumpharm.com/contact.htm Else, Wardley's and Aquatronics and two other brands. Do write back if none such are available to you in Europe. >
Which one do you recommend as the most effective? 
<they really serve two different and useful purposes. Meth Blue is effective against bacteria and fungus... while formalin is aggressive on parasites>
If you know any serious shop on Europe that can send - sell to us (me or my retailer) some quantity of the above medications please let me know their addresses or their website, in case they have one.
Another question, which has to do with water chemistry: We know that it is good to keep the Carbonate Hardness at high levels (8 to 10 German count) 
<even a bit higher is good... 11-12 dKH>
in order to keep the PH stable at high values (8.2 to 8.5). What happens if the CH is too high? 
<when CH gets very high, there is a risk of precipitating calcium... but the dKH has to be a lot higher (toward 20 or higher)>
Is there any problem when we have a carbonate hardness of more than 10? (for example 13).
<no trouble at all at with a CH of 13. 12 dKH is rather ideal for reef aquaria>
Kalinichta,
<good night, my friend>
Thanassis
<best regards, Anthony>

Strange smell!
<that would be Bob, back from the Australian outback. Three weeks without bathing. His friends won't let him near them, but he could sneak up to within 10 feet of a wallaby from upwind for his pains>
Hello Anthony!
<cheers Thanassis>
Here I am again this time with problems...
As I had told you my fishes had Oodinium. Since the product Formalin is not used at all in my city (it does not exist in the stores) I had to treat my aquarium with SeaCure by Aquarium Systems, you probably know it very well. 
<yes... but it is often not effective on Oodinium (Velvet disease) because this parasite buries so deep in the fishes' flesh. Really a better medication for Cryptocaryon (Ich/white spot)>
This treatment needs to take place 14 days and the copper level should be stable at 0,3 ppm during the treatment. So I bought the copper test kit from the same company. So far, so good. After 5 days the white spots seem to have disappeared and suddenly today in the morning I realize that my Blue Tang has a white spot on his eye. It is the first time that I have a problem with the eyes of my fishes , so I do not know where it comes from and what it is. Can it be White Spot disease or is it something else? 
<still could be white spot><<Mmm, or a burn from chemical exposure. RMF>>
The medicine is still in the aquarium ...
<yes... it is very important to maintain that level. Some say for Oodinium you must go 21 days>
On the other hand I noticed this morning a bed smell coming from my aquarium, which I can really not describe. I made the following thinking about the reason for this smell:
- I put in my aquarium three new blue hard (dead) corals just the day before , which I bought from my retailer. I washed them in tap water before I put them in the tank. I do not really know if this smell could come from the corals or this is only a co-incidence.
<hmmm... dead/
<yes...could be. Do keep up with the partial water changes for this and many reasons>
bleached coral should not impart this>
- I have not worked my skimmer since ten days because of the treatments, so perhaps there are too many organics in my tank causing this smell. This afternoon I started my skimmer and it takes out a lot of white foam which is hard and does not deliquesce, something that does not happen when it is running constantly.
- My gravel (crashed coral + aragonite sand) is perhaps more than 1 inch deep in some areas. Perhaps there are anaerobic bacteria there causing this smell. This evening I took out some gravel, so that the depth is not more than 1/2 inch.
<very wise>
Well, this is all I could think of, with my little knowledge, which is getting bigger thanks to your terrific site and book (the conscientious aquarist).
<agreed... Bob has created a wonderful site and a great book (CMA). We are all glad to help out>
Your input on the above problems would be much appreciated. 
Thanks again, Thanassis
<always welcome my friend. Anthony>

Re: Strange smell! - Oodinium still there!
Well, just to continue the story:
Today my Blue Tang and Clown tang are again full of Oodinium! I suspect that turning on the skimmer absorbed big part of the copper and Oodinium is back again. 
<not related my friend... again, Oodinium typically is not killed easily with copper. The rebound in the fish could just as easily have been natural. Oodinium is so deep in the flesh (unlike Cryptocaryon on the very surface which is killed easily by copper). You really need freshwater dips and/or a different medication to kill Oodinium effectively. Copper alone is not effective enough for me>
I now turned the skimmer off and added some SeaCure to continue with the treatment. Hope not to lose any fish... The bad smell is still there (a little close to the smell of petrol). Did I understand well your answer? Do you mean that the blue corals can be the reason for the smell because they are colored blue ?
<not at all. I do not believe that the blue corals have anything to do with the smell. If you want to be sure though, take one out and put it into a bucket of water and see if the smell continues in the bucket... that would suggest that the coral might be contaminated or that it is not fully cured or bleached clean of tissue and organic matter>
Something else: Since I am treating with copper I should have no skimmer on and no carbon in my filter. 
<definitely no carbon... and yes, it is usually best to leave the skimmer off as well>
If I do it for 15 or 20 days would not it be a cause of bed water conditions? 
<yes... that is the reason for the frequent (weekly and sometimes daily) small water changes in a hospital tank>
Of coarse I feed less than normal and I have the wet-dry filter in operation since 10 days now - do not know if it has built up any bacteria colonies yet.
<very good temporarily>
Tomorrow I plan a 20% water change. Hope to get my aquarium back to "normal life" soon! Regards, Thanassis
<good work, my friend. Anthony>

Wet-Dry filter & Oodinium!!!!
Hello Anthony!
<Cheers, again, Thanassis>
"a very coarse foam block stuck onto the intake strainer (inside the tank) as a bulk prefilter often extends the life and cleanings of the media inside such external filters"
Yes, this is exactly what EHEIM also recommends and is included in the package of the Wet-dry filter (I have it on already). They recommend to keep it on for 6 weeks and then take it out. I consider of cleaning it and put it back.
<yes, agreed... I like to rinse and reuse it constantly>
Well, whenever I realized that my fishes started to have Oodinium (especially the Blue Tang) I immediately treated it with OODINEX, an ESHA product, which is a light medication (can be used also to invertebrates) and the signs of the illness went away on the third day of the treatment. This time this is not the case. After a 4-day treatment with OODINEX the spots did not disappear, but on the contrary I realized today (it is the 4th day) that they have become more. I have a copper-based medication in my stock (the CUPRAZIN from Waterlife),
<Actually... I do not feel that copper if effective at all on Amyloodinium (velvet). The parasite buries into the fish too deep to be killed by copper before the fish does! Formalin based products have been shown to be effective as well as consecutive daily dips (5-8).>
afraid of a serous problem if I put CUPRAZIN inside it.
but I afraid to use it, since OODINEX is still in my system.
<PolyFilters will clear this promptly when that is the only concern>
On the other hand I feel that I have no time to take the OODINEX out with my skimmer or carbon, because this would take at least two days, and it would be too late for my fishes. 
<Overnight with the PolyFilters>
I am thinking of taking the risk and put tomorrow morning CUPRAZIN, because otherwise I could lose my fishes. 
<still... I don't think this will be very effective... better off to do aggressive freshwater dips>
In the instructions of OODINEX it is only mentioned that it should not be used at the same time with any other treatment, but there is no indication for waiting two or more days in order to make another treatment.
<indeed...most medications do not stay in solution for even a few days>
Do you have any experience with the above medicines? What should I do? Perhaps by the time I receive your answer I may have already taken some action on this (now it is 02.32 a.m.), but still I would like to have your advice. Thanks and best regards, Thanassis
<best regards, Anthony... PS. I recently sold one of my books through Amazon.com to an aquarist in Cyprus. Is that close to you?>

Oodinium
Hi Robert,
<Anthony Calfo in your service while Bob travels Australia on a tour featuring his latest work and passion: finger painting. He's been to five banks and the grand opening of a retirement home showing his portraits so far>
I am having some trouble with velvet.
<as in Elvis on Velvet, or are we talking about those cute dogs playing cards and smoking?>
Got it in my main reef and captured all fish for treatment.
<excellent to hear.. the right call!>
Tank fallow of fish for one month so far.
<very good>
I screwed up HT by thinking I was helping adding some LR and Caulerpa for the tang and blenny (Algae blenny, purple tang, flame angel and clarkii clown. 
<as in...rock from the main display?>
Messed with my copper levels, wrong copper, mixing, you know the story. Got straight from your pages.
<sorry and then glad to hear.. in that order>
Saturday after reading all the FAQ's on the wet web site, I got my copper fixed, saved my fish from dying once.
All fish were fine w/copper (cupric sulphate) until this AM when the Blenny was on his side. I pulled him from the HT and put him in an untreated tank with just a starfish. IF the blenny survives, do you have any suggestions for treatment for him if any? He seems very sensitive to copper.
<yes... scaleless and small scaled fishes are quite sensitive. Furthermore... copper alone is not that effective on Oodinium. "Velvet" actually buries deep enough in the flesh (unlike Cryptocaryon "Ich" which is superficial) that copper can kill some fish before it gets deep enough to kill the parasites. Freshwater dips are needed in concert. Do read up in the archives on this protocol, my friend>
The other fish are eating and acting normally with the exception of some flashing still, mainly near gills (velvet is BAD).
Sometimes worse than others. I think this is the reaction to the copper and lowered salinity.
<please do proper freshwater dips for all>
Water is 83 F, SG is 1.020 down from 1.023 Friday (.01 per day drop in SG) No ammonium/ammonia, nitrite or nitrate. I'm testing cu AM and PM. Do you have any suggestions? Thank you, Craig Watson
<you are very much on the right track, Craig. It's just a matter of time. Kindly, Anthony>

Oodinium
<<Greetings... >>
Hello, first off I wish to say great job on the site, and helping us clueless aquarists. Well my clown trigger and passer angelfish have a bad case of Oodinium (the disease related to ick) <<as a quick aside, it is only related in that ich and Oodinium are parasitic, but I can assure you, they have different life cycles>><Mmm, no, not very. RMF> I have been treating w/ copper and formalin, but its not working that great. If it continues to get worse should I freshwater dip them? Thanks!! <<Well, Oodinium is fairly virulent, meaning it can get out of hand and fatal pretty quickly. Additionally, no therapy will work in front of your eyes, it usually takes a week or so. Also, if you are treating these fish in your main display, the formalin and copper could be absorbed by the live rock and crushed coral rendering them useless as a treatment. Your best bet is to remove both of these fish into individual tanks - perhaps a 20-long for each fish with a simple air-driven sponge filter. With the fish separated from the display, you can treat with formalin and freshwater dips as needed. The separate tank gets you a couple of things - one, you alleviate the cycle of the fish infecting each other. Two, it becomes much easier to observe the fish and remove it for a dip or bath should the situation warrant it. Three, you really don't want to add harsh therapies like formalin and copper to your main display system as these will wreak havoc on the inhabitants of the biological filter. Better to do a water change a day on a 20g quarantine tank than lose your display. So... your course of action: yes to the freshwater dips - make sure you match pH and temperature. Then, follow the directions for the formalin and dose each quarantine tank individually. Keep up on the observations. Try to do a 25% water change at a minimum of every other day. You might also want to consider letting your display go fallow for a month to six weeks to allow the Oodinium to cycle to a less-virulent level. Here's the companion reading:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/parasiti.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/treatmen.htm
Good luck. Cheers, J -- >>