Good thing for quarantine! >Marina, thanks for responding.    >>Most welcome. >Well, I'm sure glad I didn't yield to the temptation to end the quarantine early on the Rainfordi goby.  "He" is in quarantine with a 3" passer angel from the same wholesaler source, and the angel is developing what I think is a case of Amyloodinium.   >>Uh oh! >All the symptoms...powdery appearance, rapid breathing, flashing, etc.  The standard treatment for this has always been copper, whether chelated or not always depended on who was doing the recommending, but angels have a notorious sensitivity to copper... Ya, I know, only quarantine 1 fish at time... but. but.. >>Yes?  There's always a butt in there, isn't there?  <giggle> >What would be the best method of treating the nasty "velvet?  Gonna have to treat both fish obviously, and only have a 10 gallon tank for a hospital tank, unless I use my regular 20 gallon quarantine tank for the medication as well, something I've always avoided... >>Oh boy, and with velvet.. boy oh boy. >I'd really hate to lose these fish, so any help... Thanks. >>Alright, know that you may very well have to go the copper route.  I prefer Cupramine by SeaChem myself.  It is my first recommendation, and I've had few troubles using it with angels.  Freshwater dips, daily, are a must in my opinion.  You MUST clean out the vessel used very well, as well as seriously disinfecting any/all tools used for this process.  Hyposaline conditions in the q/t may be of help, but I worry about the goby.  Read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/amylloodiniumart.htm http://www.lib.noaa.gov/docaqua/amyloodiniumfactsheet.html And something rather interesting from the Journal of Aquatic Animal Health regarding the utility of Artemia nauplii in ridding systems infected with Amyloodinium ocellatus.. http://afs.allenpress.com/afsonline/?request=get-abstract&doi=10.1577%2F1548-8667(1995)007%3C0257:CCOAOD%3E2.3.CO%3B2 In any event, honestly, your best bet is going to be using copper in concert with freshwater dips.  You could try an antimalarial treatment (sorry, can't recollect name of the compound), but it's EXPENSIVE, and to the best of my knowledge, not available to the layman for treatment of his/her marine ornamental fishes.  Marina

Puffer with Marine Velvet (8-16-04) Bob, <Leslie here for Bob today> I just came across your site through Yahoo, searching for info to help my sick fish.  I think they have Velvet.  I have a 150gal tank, with 150lbs of live rock and a 2 yr old Dogface Puffer (we bought from someone months ago) and a Miniatus Grouper and Lunar Wrasse (we bought about 2 months ago).  Things were going great, until I brought home a Bluejaw Trigger 2 weeks ago.  I didn't know enough to QT. <Sounds like you are learning one of the hardest lessons I have ever had to learn. > After 2 days in the tank, I could tell something was wrong with the Trigger.  She wouldn't come out of hiding, even for food.  After 3 days of not seeing her, we moved the rocks around until we found her and pulled her out into a bucket, intending to take her to the LFS to see if she was sick and what we should do.  Her top fin was completely ate away and she looked beat up.  I never saw any of the other fish even glance her way, so I felt certain they hadn't done this to her and thought she must have been diseased.  She died before we could get her to the fish store.     About 2 days later I noticed my puffer looking odd. He was more lethargic than usual, his gills were pumping pretty hard and he had a goldish powdery appearance on about 1/3 of his body.  Kind of a shimmery powdered makeup look.  My wrasse seems unaffected, but I have noticed my miniatus turning very pale when at rest.  She looks all washed out and faded until she takes off swimming and then she seems to darken up to her usual color so I wasn't sure if she was sick or if that is normal.    Anyway, I rushed to my LFS and got there right as they were closing.  I hurriedly looked thru their medications and settled on Mardel Copper Safe because the Velvet symptoms seemed to fit.  We dosed the 150gal tank with the recommended dosage yesterday.  Today I noticed puffer laying on the bottom under a section of live rock, which is very rare for him and he is unresponsive to my visits at the glass (normally he chases me around the tank and loves to be watched).     I posted to a place called the Puffer Forum and they responded saying that Copper Safe is not safe for puffers or for my live rock and I really screwed up. < You have made some mistakes and unfortunately that is how we learn....... > So I'm asking for your expert opinion on what to do from here, so I can try to rectify my mistakes and have the best shot at saving him. CopperSafe is one of the chelated copper products . so, safer and more stable.  I have no personal experience with copper, except what I have read.  So,  I perused the WWM Puffer Disease FAQs and found conflicting information re treating Puffers with Copper. So, I called upon Bob and some of the other crew members  for their valuable advice. Here is what Bob had to share..... "Most stores use copper compounds, mostly the safer, more stable chelated formulations to treat most all species of marines... though more carefully such groups as the puffers, clown Anemonefishes, tube-mouthed fishes (e.g. seahorses)... with a decidedly certain degree of risk. I liken copper use with the old (though not absent) human use of mercuircals, arsenicals (compounds of mercury and arsenic) in human medicine... these chemicals are toxic... and hopefully more harmful to the causative agent than the patient/s... Some have a narrower range of efficacy than one would like... that is, (as you know but others reading this may well not) the difference between an effective dose and disaster is close, too close to not use test kits, a separate treatment tank w/o interfering influences like carbonaceous substrates, and close observation... All this being stated and weighed, in the trade folks overwhelmingly utilize copper... many on a continuous basis" Adam Cesnales uses Quinine based meds with apparently good success.....here is what he shared.... "Quinine based medications are pretty effective against velvet and offer very rapid reduction in parasite load.  Chloroquine Diphosphate (Aquatronics Marex, not to be confused with Murex!) is the first choice, Quinine Hydrochloride (Aquatronics Quinsulfex) is a close second and is much easier to find.  One or the other of these two drugs is always on reserve in my house.  They can be combined with Metronidazole (Flagyl, available from SeaChem and Aquatronics) and/or hyposalinity. These agents are in several popular but ineffective fish medications.   IMO, they are ineffective due to dosing recommendations that make them "reef safe". Dose either of the Quinine agents at 35mg/gallon one time dose for a treatment period of 7-14 days with low light and hyposalinity if desired and no water changes or carbon and then move to standard quarantine. Hyposalinity is decidedly ineffective against velvet, but I employ and recommend it because it gives the fish some metabolic advantage.  Also keep in mind that dosed at these levels, these agents are decidedly not invert safe! I have brought a couple of fish back from the brink with this regime and recommend it strongly over copper which is both a PITA and quite hard on the fishes (especially herbivores and those that are scaleless)." Please do read the following articles starting with Marine Velvet/Amyloodinium ocellatum: A Discussion of this Disease and its Available Treatment Options by Steven Pro here: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-07/sp/feature/index.htm Velvet Disease/Amyloodiniumiasis: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/amylloodiniumart.htm and Puffers : http://www.wetwebmedia.com/puffers.htm > I read about FW dips at your site, but am unclear how to safely achieve this with my puffer, and don't know how to go about balancing the PH in the FW to match the tank water.   < If after reading the links provided you decide to use FW dips this is how I do it....Freshwater dips are not too difficult....a bit time consuming to set up and adjust the water. The best way to match the ph is with some baking soda to increase the ph or some white vinegar to decrease the pH. If using tap water be sure to dechlorinate it. You have to experiment by just adding a little of which ever  until the desired pH is achieved. Most likely the pH will need to be increased so you will be adding baking soda. Take a fixed amount of water and add small amounts of baking soda until you get the desired ph......say 1/2 to 1 gal of water. Try an 1/8th of a tsp at a time. Mix the water well and test the pH. Keep track of what you did so you can repeat it the next time should you need to. When you get the desired ph add some dechlorinator. Take a container or good sized plastic bag and float  that pH adjusted dechlorinated water in the display tank. If that is not possible then put the bucket of FW into the kitchen sink....adjust the temp by either floating a plastic baggie with ice in it or filling the sink with hot water, until you get the desired temp. Remove the fish in as little water as possible so it remains submerged and gently place it in the bucket. You will need to keep a very close eye on the fish. IME puffers handle this very well. I have fed them in the dip buckets. I have left mine as long as 30 min without any signs of stress. 7 to 15 minutes is recommended and Scott Michael in a recent article mentioned as long as 30 min if the fish shows no signs of stress. I set a timer and place the bucket beside me where ever I am. Signs of stress include gasping at the surface, side lying, trying to jump out, and spitting at the surface. Every Puffer I have ever dipped has laid quietly on the bottom looking quite content. Some increased gilling would be expected. When the dip is complete I empty as much of the dip water into the sink as I can being sure to keep the fish submerged. I gently alternate adding tank water and pouring water out until I think most of the dip water has been eliminated. I return the puffer to the tank in a container with as little water as possible so that he remains submerged at all times. > I also have an empty 55gal tank that I could use to QT but wanted to find out exactly how to set it up, what temp/salinity/ph etc to shoot for. <I use a bare bottom tank with several chunks of live rock. pH would be the same as any other marine tank. I like  to use temps that are on the low end of the temp range for the particular species.....as bacteria love heat. Unless I am treating ich then I raise the temp a bit which speeds up it's life, cycle. If the fish is showing any signs of increased gilling then I use the lower end of their temp range. Cooler water has more oxygen available. I like good circulation in my Q tanks with shelter and hiding places. More on Quarantining..... http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quaranti.htm and http://www.wetwebmedia.com/QuarMarFishes.htm> And then what to do with my show tank and live rock/live sand.  Did I just ruin them with the Coppersafe or can they be salvaged? < Copper is absorbed by rock and carbonaceous substrate, which is leached back out into the water. Please have a look at Copper and Copper removal FAQs...http://www.wetwebmedia.com/curemovalfaqs.htm and Live Rock FAQs... http://www.wetwebmedia.com/lrfaqs.htm As for treating the tank allowing it top go fallow for a couple to a few of months works well.....see the following  FAQs on treating marine parasites.... http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marparasitcurefaqs.htm You help and guidance would really be appreciated. Barbara <Glad to help best of luck with your puffer, Leslie>