Sex change in Black-spot Angel...  11/12/2005
Hi, I would like to know whether Black-spot Angel sex change from Female to Male.
<Yes>
Or the other way round...
<Not likely>
I am unable to get a male black-spot angel... If i get two female, will one female gradually change to male overtime?
<Likely so>
Normally how long would it take?
<Months... by time, initial development, care and social factors. Bob Fenner> 

Centropyge breeding tank set up/egg collection
Hello,
I have been doing a lot of research lately on this subject before I begin investing more money than I already have into it.
<Good>
I would like to try breeding a couple different species of dwarf angels, namely Flames and Potter's to start. I know what's supposed to be in the tank and tank size and proper nutrition of the breeding pair. I am doing research on larval food with the help of my college's Bio. Dept (which has an obscene number of marine biologists and Ichthyologists for not having a marine biology program heheh)...
<Ah, the public trough/ivory tower... I miss it so>
...and the local Marine Institute with some tips from my LFS here and there as well. My question comes because its one thing I have been unable to find anywhere else.
<Is this Anglish?>
How do I get the fragile eggs from the breeding tank to the rearing tank without harming them. I know they float due to the drop of oil in them. I have thought about an overflow into a sump tank with an appropriately sized screen to separate them from the workings of it, but if I go that route will the eggs suffer any damage from riding the rapids down to that tank?
<Likely so... many facilities for aquaculture utilize quite large, fine screens... relatively low flow rates... so the eggs don't get too agitated... and rinse the eggs off the screen, floating them, and either siphon or "dip" them from the surface... or grow the young out in place, removing the broodstock>
Net scoop them out with a plankton net?
<Could>
Any help in this matter would be greatly helpful, thanks. In addition if you know off hand by chance the micro-organisms that larval angels will eat, smaller than rotifers, it would take some serious travel time off my schedule. Thanks, Mike
<Do you read German? Have folks there who do/can? I encourage you to peruse this title: Nachzuchten für das Korallenriff-Aquarium and the references you'll find. You know of the work of Frank Hoff? Frank Baensch? Bob Fenner>

Re: Centropyge breeding tank set up/egg collection
Hello, Unfortunately I do not know anyone who speaks German, a few Russian and Polish speakers though heheh. I have read Frank Baensch's article in an aquarium magazine from a few years back and his website but he does not list the food source for the larva up to the rotifer stage. For some reason he just doesn't want to answer my email on the subject either, lol.
<I've had no luck getting a response from him either... he is likely very busy... am given to understand he's gotten his doctorate... is still in Hawai'i I believe...>
As to the screen idea, I will draw up some plans and see how they look. Thanks for the help, you have given me some good ideas to work with and sources to look at. Mike
<I DO encourage you still to make that sojourn to the college library... Have a reference librarian help you devise a search if you're unfamiliar with this. I have a brief article here re: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/litsrchart.htm  I would search using the terms "Centropyge" and "Culture", "Aquaculture"... and when you find the food organisms being utilized by others, search by their common and scientific names. Bob Fenner> 

Angelic Hermaphrodites
     I'm hoping you can help me answer this puzzle! My friend has a 65 gal marine tank with a captive mixed community.  In this tank she placed a male and female Genicanthus melanospilos.  The male acted very dominant in the tank.  She went on vacation and came back and found the female had been attacked, where she died shortly thereafter.
Now, we've noticed the male has become much more calm and is actually changing into a female.  His coloring is completely  changing to match that of the female that had died.
Why would this be happening?  I cannot find any info on this!
Thanks,
Suzanne
>>>Hey Suzanne,
As you know, Genicanthus angels are sequential  hermaphrodites, which means only 1 set of sexual organs is functional at any one time. Further, these angels are  protogynous hermaphrodites which means they develop into females first, with the possibility of changing into males later. Unlike clownfish for instance which are protandrous hermaphrodites in which they develop in to females first, with the possibility of later changing into males. In both cases, it's the dominant fish of the group that changes. When the dominant fish is removed, the next one in line steps up and becomes the male or female depending on which group we're speaking of.
    So what does all that blabber mean? It means that normally what one would be witnessing with a Genicanthus angel is the opposite of what you are describing with this fish, and exactly what I would expect from a protandrous hermaphrodite such as a clown. Remember that males of certain species vary chromatically when a female is present. So, you may be witnessing a simple color shift given the absence of the female, a chromatic stress response, or less likely an actual wavering from male to female in this fish, which somehow I doubt.  Given that the remaining angel is dominant without question, there is no reason it should be changing into a female. Of course, you are the one witnessing the event! Some sequential hermaphrodites can change back and forth, gobies among them. I haven't heard of angels reverting back to female though once they've made the "change". I'll try and find further info on this and let you know.  
Jim<<<

Re: Farm-Raised Fish 10/29/03
Bob:
A brief review.  I notified you of a mail order company selling a farm-raised Centropyge loricula.  The  company is unimportant to my question, so I will leave them nameless here (you can read in past email below).  First, about your response: "eighty dollars for 3/4" to 1-1/4".... Yikes!...good for them and the industry".  
1) Is "yikes" in regards to (a) size, (b) price or (c) size/price ratio?  
<Yes... just a bit of (to be expected) "sticker-shock" at the price of small specimens (compared to the current transit and net-landed-cost for adults procured from the wild>
2) If it has to do with size, is there a general minimum (not that again!) for farmed fish?
<In general, yes. There is tremendous resistance from consumers (oftener than not) for "too-small" specimens, particularly in the face of available, larger, less-expensive wild-caught individuals of the same species>
3) Are wild specimens of this fish a lot cheaper out West?
<Flames "land" on the west coast for something in the "teens" of dollars to wholesalers... generally retail for 50-75>
4) If yes, is it because of the shorter travel time from their collection sites?
<Mostly yes... due to less re-bagging, shipping time... another important factor is that many markets (towns) shops sell livestock for scant mark-up>
My LFS always has a good supply of larger (3"+) wild-caught specimens at a steady $60.  So, I thought a 33% markup would be a worth it to be able to leave one in the ocean (I like to think of it that way).  Also, I like the idea of having a smaller guy to watch grow up.  
<I agree with your orientation>
5) As far as your 5" maximum statement, how long would you say it takes for this species to reach this size?  
<A few years (2,3) in a large, uncrowded, well-fed setting>
6) Can I reliably approximate an age for this fish at 2", 3" and 4"?
<Perhaps 2, 3 and four years respectively, plus or minus an inch or year>
7) With any "newly" farm-raised livestock, is it best to wait a few generations?
8) If yes, why?
<Not necessarily... it "took" a couple of decades to work out the bugs, get as hardy, colorful, well-marked generations of Amphiprionines captive-produced as wild, but the Centropyges, other angels... Gobiosoma, pseudochromids and others are hardier than wild-caught from the get-go nowadays>
9) How long (ballpark) would a few generations take?
<five, ten years, depending on species characteristics, difficulties to work out in the breeding, rearing protocols>
10) Can you breed out the "wild" in a species?
<Yes, definitely>
Sorry, I think I got carried away, but I just wanted to cover everything.  My main concern is buying a large specimen that is already 5 years old/possibly at middle-age, since this fish will be my crown jewel.  Regards, Rich.
<No worries. Good questions, valid concerns. Bob Fenner>

An Eye For Angels... Part 2 
I've been told on a forum that all Centropyge angels start out as females and change to males when not dominated by a larger male. Is this true? 
Thanks, Barry 
<Actually, Barry, you got it pretty much right. They are what is known scientifically as "synchronous protogynous hermaphrodites". Basically, this is a 10-dollar expression that means that they start life as sexually undifferentiated fishes, then develop into females. As social pressures manifest themselves in their environment, some of the fishes grow into males, and the remainder remain females. They are generally "haremic", with a single male associating with several females. Fascinating fishes (my favorite family)...Enjoy them! Regards, Scott F>

Harem of Angels? Centropyge question
Hi Mr. Fenner,
I was reading a thread on Reef Central about Centropyge angelfish and how, in the wild, they are normally found in "harems".
<Some species much more than others... most are found as single individuals, others in "pairs" (twos) more often.>
One gentleman even has a harem of 5 flame angels in his tank. Very neat stuff. The thread is at:
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=2b7f09050e86de99994c291794be3484
<http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=2b7f09050e86de99994c2
91794be3484&threadid=63237> &threadid=63237
I was thinking of trying this and wanted to see what your thoughts were. I was thinking of Coral Beauties or Potter's Angels. I'm leaning towards the Coral Beauties because of the price (hey 4 or 5 angel fish is not cheap, especially when you consider the difference in price is going to multiplied 4 or 5 times...) and, more importantly, because of their hardiness over the Potters. Ever since I started this "hobby" though, I've always loved the Potters. This seemed like it was right up your alley so I thought I'd run it by you. :-)
<Potter's Angels are not very aquarium hardy... I definitely would choose the Coral Beauty's over them... Either species requires large, well-established quarters to do what you suggest (a few hundred gallons). Please read over the Centropyge materials posted (articles and FAQs) on our WetWebMedia.com site and we'll chat further.
Bob Fenner>
Thanks, Michael Harris

Centropyge Pairing and LFS Scrutiny - Unwarranted 8/7/03
Crew:
<person>
I was at my LFS today, and they were selling 2 Flame Angels (C. loricula) as a "pair".  Don't they change sexes as needed or something?
<not exactly... they can/do change sex and will do so one way and once generally (unlike Clownfishes/other). They are also somewhat easy to sex. Most collected/seen in the trade are males. Females are very conspicuous with a washed out red/orange/citron flank with fewer and less wide dark vertical bars other flanks... as well as diminished purple bars on the anal fin. Other features too>
Is this pairing a ploy, or would you suppose they arrived "fin in fin"?
<neither. Someone late in the chain of custody had a good eye for sexing them and attempted a match that worked (they are often intolerant)>
Also, as far as I have read, rearing this species to adulthood has proven elusive, so what gives?  
<they have been successfully reared in HI>
I doubt they would ask if I was an expert trying to rear the young, and then tell me that it's hardly ever been done.
<you are completely mistaken here my friend... they were only trying to sell a sexed and compatible pair... a sexed pair was promised... not a breeding pair, no?>
Perhaps if I have more time next time, I will grill the folks down there about it.  
<relax mate>
That brings me to another subject:  Understanding that my LFS is
a business, how much scrutiny does one give before disqualifying a place entirely?  
<relative to your personal/moral philosophy>
I sometimes feel that they should not be selling certain
livestock, like anemones (at least 6 different looking ones - they can't all be hardy), Pipefishes, etc.  
<but do they serve the greater good overall? Do consider... and again, do relax>
Maybe it is late at night and it is just me,
<perhaps.. or maybe its the champagne and Pez candies talking>
but I sometimes shake my head at some things, like a tang with a mouth problem that is doomed, and it's on sale.  
<offered at a discount to someone who cares to help it is empathetic, if that's their intent>
I wouldn't exactly label it as underhanded, I mean you have to know that something is on sale for a reason, right (or at least ask)?  Thanks for reading.  Rich
<Rich... you just may have more conspiracy theories than even I do. You calm me. Seek peace my friend. And seek pees. Anthony>