Emperor Angel Living Quarters  4/4/07
Hi
<Hello.>
was wondering can I keep an emperor angel in a 300 litre tank
<You'll have to forgive me being in the U.S. with that measurement...but I believe that to be very roughly 75 gallons or so, give or take? So the answer would be most likely; no. An adult angel of this genus/size would need a much larger tank...200 U.S. gallons or so....800-1000 litres on your end. Could be okay for a juvenile if tankmates a very minimal but not a long term arrangement for sure.>
and also maybe 2 of them
<No, one is pushing it....2 is not going to work, both with physical room and psychological room/aggression.>
as it is only still young what would you  recommend
<Adam J.>

A Question for Bob F, A personal sharing of job/life development, Emperor Angel sys.   12/8/06
Hey Bob,
<Jeremy>
Attached is an email that you responded to about a year ago.
<Ah, yes. See, re-read>
It is just now that enough has changed/happened for a worthwhile response.  A little over a month ago, I transferred upstairs to the environmental dept.  What I do is monitor the rainfall gauges and sample the water going through the storm lines.  
<Interesting work...>
The first time I went out in the field, I was conducting tests like Ammonia, pH, Chlorine, Copper, Fecal Bacteria, etc. and laughing to myself thinking about the aquarium and testing the water and how much I have already learned just by keeping a fish tank.
<Yes>
  When they tried to explain to me that the substance on a rock called Blue Green Algae is really bacteria called cyanoBACTERIA, I almost lost it.  My tank is finally rid of it too!
<Good>
I think I may have found what I am/was looking for (or at least on the right tracking to finding it) when I wrote you last December.  I asked you about Marine Biology.  For what it looks like, the major I was seeking was Environmental Biology / Conservation.  Any particular thoughts on this field?
<A growing focus, need for general and specific understanding/progress>
Some of the stuff I see out there is really something (in a negative way).  Sometimes just flat out insane...  At least now I feel like I am part of the solution.  I know I can't change the world, but I can do my part to help out.  It looks like I will be working upstream from you keeping as much crap from going into the ocean as I can.  I am starting on a project in the Port of Houston, so I will get a little bit of marine experience in.  
I was in a wedding on the shore recently and I sampled some water.  Not during the ceremony, but afterwards and after I changed out of the tux.
Just in case you were thinking otherwise...  I used some empty Ozarka bottles and people looked at me like I was crazy, but oh well.
Surprisingly, it was ok.  The spg was at 1.021, pH at 8.2, Amm, Nitrite were at 0 and nitrate at 5.  What should I have been looking for in terms of pollutants that may have killed my fishes if I had dumped it in my tank?  
<In the way of classes of chemicals? Metals, organic compounds of various sorts, saponifiers, pesticide residues... the topic is vast>
I didn't want to risk it and dumped the water in the front lawn.  Are there any test kits I can buy from the LFS to test it?
<Doubtful... Please see Hach, LaMotte websites... Perhaps Aquatic EcoSystems as well... Really, a trip to a/the library is in order here... CRC Press has some very good "standard works" on the topic of water quality...>
Now on to other things.  Recently I wrote you about general advice in planning for a bigger tank.  Will an emperor angel really outgrow a 210 gallon system?  (If he does, he becomes dinner)
<Yes, it really will>
That's it for now.  Take care,
Jeremy
<I look forward to your further sharing of your unfolding (evolution in its true meaning) personally, career-wise. Bob Fenner>

Imperator Angel/Angle
Let's see if you guys have ever run into this one. I have had this imperator angle since he was a juvenile and now is almost through his adult color change. So I have had him for about six years or so. Always has eaten well, good appetite. He lives in a 130 gallon tank with two triggers and he is the ruler of the fish tank. Everyone gets along and no fish wars here, no tail nipping, nothing. We have a few pieces of live rock with some algae on it and other small non-descript critters that the triggers cannot heat. Also have a sandy bottom with some tube worms living in it. 
Over the past year and a half or so I have noticed the classic symptoms of hole in the head disease progression with this guy. I have put vitamins in the food, have always used a varied diet, and have always had good water quality as evidenced by the other two fish and the various invertebrates that live there. 
Lighting is via 4 4' florescent tubes, two day light spectra and the other two combo actinic/white. Water changes once every month or at the most two months. 
Here are a couple of things I found wrong in the last several months. I took some water samples into work and found my pH to be down around 7.5. I brought that up over the next couple of weeks with carbonate buffer to the proper range. That is when the tube worms started to show up in the sand. I also added on of those grounding probes to the tank as well, although I am skeptical of that. I started feeding more algae to them as well and he eats the majority of it. 
Well, things have gone from bad to worse. The hole in the head progression seems to have gotten worse, but now this guy has a lump under his dorsal fin that is pretty big. The fish is about 6 inches long and 4 inches tall. Now picture taking a ball about 3/4" in diameter and putting it mid fish right under the dorsal fin behind the head. He looks like XXXX. 
Appetite is still fine and he continues to rule the tank so whatever it is does not bother him enough to change his attitude. I suspect its a tumor of some sort and chemo or radiation is likely not an option. Everyone else in the tank is still looking fine by the way.
Any suggestions?
Phil Barnhart
<A few... your tank is too small for these fishes... your water quality could be improved by having a better skimmer, doing more water changes... but you need a bigger system... Even if you're just going to keep the Angel... Do read on WWM re HLLE, the species you're keeping. Bob Fenner>

Imperator Query
More Q's, and thanks for all of the previous info. We are interested in setting up a tank for a Pomacanthus imperator. I've had several tank sizes recommended to me as well as reading about different tank sizes in several books. I've read and been told any where from 100 being the min up to 500gal. A 100 gal. seems kinda small for a fish that can get sooo big. I don't have room for a 500gal. in my house, do I need a bigger house? :) I wouldn't be surprised if I did, LOL. This has left me uncertain of what size I should purchase. Also, we are setting up a new sump for our old 100 gal FO. The tank has been moved to a spot where we have to put the sump in a closet on the opposite side of the wall behind the tank. We were thinking about using a shelving rack in the closet. On each shelf would be an 27 gal. Rubbermaid bin. Each bin would have something different in it, one would be a DSB, below that would be a bin with macro algae, LR and so on, each being gravity fed starting from the over flow box and down through the consecutive shelves then pumped back up in to the tank. Does the crew see any problems with this type of set up? Thanks again,
SHAUNA
>>>Hello Shauna,
Pomacanthus imperator reaches an adult size of 15" or so in the wild. Captive specimens tend to top out at around 10 to 12" usually. However it takes some years for them to get anywhere close to this size. This is still a large fish though when eventually it does attain these proportions, and considering how active it is, say compared to a grouper of the same length, we need to consider it's space requirements. I think Scott Michael tends to err a bit in favor of the aquarist for his minimum tank sizes in a few places, if that's the book you're referencing. A great book, and he knows his stuff. I just think his minimum tank sizes need to be bumped up a bit for some of the large fish, especially for some of the larger angels. I would say that long term, you shouldn't consider any tank smaller than a 180 gallon. They grow at a slow, steady pace, so If you get a juvenile, it will live in smaller quarters for several years (say a 120 gallon) before you need to upgrade his tank. Ideally, I'd say purchase a 240 or 300 gallon tank (or larger) if you have the means.
Regarding your other plans, aside from weight considerations and the need to have VERY strong shelves - sounds good for the most part. I would however question the functionality of such a small DSB in any system, let alone one this large.
Regards
Jim<<<

Imperator Query - Part Deux
Thanks for the input. I'm thinking I need to wait to set up the Imperator
system. I have space for a 200gal. max. Or, we may just wait until we get
our new home in a year and get a larger tank since we'll have the room then,
if everything works out like we have planned. I'm thinking we'll do the
latter, that way we won't stress out the juvi in the move. That will
definitely give us enough time to research the system and the fish
thoroughly and more $$$$ to buy something larger than a 200gal for this
little giant. A couple of other Q's. There is a pair of golden striped
maroon clowns that has been at one of our favorite LFS's for about a month.
They have hosted in 2 large bubble tipped anemones (side by side). With the
plans for the imperator we were wondering if the clowns and their anemones
would be able to hold their own in with the imperator? Also, I was recently
told that as long as what ever fish a person adds to an imperators tank is a
few inches smaller or more than the imperator, they should co-exist with out
much squabbling. From what I've been reading, here and in the books, this
doesn't sound quite right especially since this fish gets more aggressive as
it matures. I'm actually hesitant to put any tank mates in with it since it
could get pretty aggressive towards them. What is your take on this
statement? I was wondering if they meant while it was juvi.  That's what
made me wonder about the intro. of the two clowns above. Others seem to have
had luck mixing other fish with an emperor. Or is it just that, luck, hit
and miss, with fish being individuals and all? As for the sump questions,
the shelving rack would be a steel one rated for more than what we would be
requiring of it. Good point about the DSB, I'll have to increase it. I'm
glad I run things past you all during the planning process, you all are
great at catching stuff I miss, thanks.
Shauna
>>>Hello again Shauna,
It's my pleasure, glad to be of some help to you. :)
Keeping other fish with P. imperator is no problem at all, they're really not THAT aggressive - relatively speaking. Sure, he'll be the boss of the tank most likely, but he won't pummel his tank mates to death. When adding other fish, he'll be more likely to ignore fish that are smaller than he is, but they usually don't put a great deal of energy into persecuting tank mates regardless. Color patter is a bigger consideration than relative size. The main caveat in this regard is other angels, but I don't think you're planning on keeping other angels with  him anyway. I currently keep a sub adult imperator in a reef tank with the following - sixline wrasse, Foxface, Brazilian Gramma, orchid Dottyback, 7 Chromis damsels, snooty Maori wrasse. He doesn't bother a thing normally.
As long as some common sense is used, keeping other fish with an imperator is no problem.
Also, they shouldn't bother host anemones. I have 6 of them, and the imperator leaves them alone. Few fish will mess with host anemones. I have a pair of gold bar maroons in my tank currently, and in all the years I've been doing this, I think this is the COOLEST thing I've been able to observe in a tank.
If you're going to move in a year, don't bother with a large tank yet. Moving a tank is HARD WORK - the worst part about moving. I wouldn't even consider setting up a tank yet if I were you.
Cheers
Jim<<<

Emperor Angel
Hello - I have a question (mostly) regarding an emperor angel. I have a 75 gal
FO tank, set up for close to two years, with an Eheim 2217 canister filter and
an AquaC HOT protein skimmer.
I change about 9-10 gal per week using RO/DI water. I have 4 fish: a 4-5 in.
emperor angel, a 3 in. Picasso trigger, a 2.5 in. clown trigger, and a medium
(3-4 in.) yellow tang. The emperor is the newest fish; I've had him about 14
months. He has been a great fish, rules the tank and eats well. I feed Nori
and dried red algae every morning, and different frozen foods (angel formula,
prawns, formula one and two) soaked in Zoë at night. Water quality seems ok
(nitrate~10, nitrite=0, ph~8.2, sg ~1.02, temp~79 deg F). BTW, I previously
had trouble keeping ph above 8, but it seems much better after adding the
skimmer six months ago. The emperor has been changing for most of the past
year, and is closer to adult than juv. For several months he has had
occasional blotchy patches on his skin. They look like a loss of color in
small to medium areas (biggest being 1/4 in.). They can come or go within an
hour (sometimes look bad, then are completely gone). Is this part of the
transition from juv. to adult? << Often times yes.  I would just watch water quality (keep the skimmer on) and make sure he has that varied diet you described. >> The triggers don't bother him at all. If it is
likely water quality, what aspect? << I would check your alkalinity levels.  >> A bit higher ph may be good, but I already
use baking soda weekly and change LOTS of water. Any thoughts would
be appreciated. << Please do test alkalinity.  Also, when adding baking soda to your water, it is important for it to be thoroughly mixed, and added to the main tank slowly. >> Also, I have a problem with slime algae (which was present,
but went away after switching to RO/DI water about a year ago, but recently
has come back). << I usually see this in tanks which lack water motion.  I would consider increasing the water flow in that area. >> Thanks in advance - I really appreciate your help! <<  Adam Blundell  >> George

How big is big (Emperor Angel) and cleaner shrimp tankmates  12/12/03
Good Evening-
<same to you!  Adam here by the way.>
I have an adult Imperator Angel, approximately 6-7" long, that I've had for 4 years, having raised it from a juvenile.  When I first got it, I had it in a 125 FOWLR, but after reading Bob's advice, bought a 180 where it has been for the last 2 1/2 years.
<Congrats on your success with this fish, and kudos for having the dedication to upgrade it's home!>
The tank has about 125# of LR, with 7 assorted and much smaller tankmates.  While I have no desire to get rid of him/her,
how will I know if it's outgrown the tank?  It does seem very happy and is doing quite well.
<You have largely answered your own question.  After four years, you know your fish and your success is a clear indication of your skills.  As long as the fish isn't showing signs of stress, I wouldn't worry too much.  As your fish approaches it's full grown size of 15" or so, you may have to remove some live rock to improve swimming room or start thinking about larger quarters again, but that should be a while down the road.>
At some point, will it stop growing and just maintain it's size based on the tanks size or can I expect it to continue getting bigger?
<You have fallen for the oldest and greatest fish keeping myth.  Regardless of tank size, fish will continue growing until they reach their natural full grown size unless water quality, nutrition or disease enter as limiting factors.  You do have some time though as most fish grow more slowly as they get larger.>
Thanks for the advice.  I couldn't think of how to do a search in
the archives, or I would have started there.
<always a pleasure.>
Are there some fish that don't get along with cleaner shrimp (Lysmata amboinensis)?  I have had quite a few disappear over time and have always thought it was the angel, however during the day it seems to leave them alone if they are out cruising around.  Other possible candidates are maroon clown or hippo tang?
<Any predatory fish could potentially turn on a cleaner shrimp, especially if they get a bit too hungry, and all of the fish that you mentioned could be suspects.  If you only had the shrimp for a short period of time, I would look to poor handling or rough acclimation first though.>
Andy

Juv. emperor angel
Hey guys,
<Whassssupppp?>
I have a juvenile Emperor angel in a 92 gallon corner bow front. He has been very happy for the past year and he's now about 3 and a half inches. I was telling my wife that we need a huge tank for him, but want to know approx. how long you think he will be ok in this size?
<tell your wife that even though I haven't met her, I just know that she is a wonderful and empathetic person. Oh, and that Anthony Calfo says you need a 240 gallon aquarium for a 12" adult emperor angel. Hehe... and I'm serious. If you will have this fish and little else though in the 4-7 year picture, a six foot tank will be satisfactory (125, 150, 180 gallon). Best regards, Anthony>
Thanks, Ken

Tank size requirement?
I want to setup a small tank in my office (controlled environment) with 1 Imperator Angel. What would you recommend as the minimum tank size,
<A 90 gallon tank.>
I currently have a 30 gallon tank that I would like to use.
<Not for an Imperator.>
This will be the only fish in the tank.
<Still needs room to swim.>
Thanks, Craig
<You are welcome. -Steven Pro>

Emperor angelfish
Hello, My name is Alena and I have been to your site many times. <<Hello to you.>> But have not found an answer to my problem. I have a 55 gallon tank that has been up and running for about 5 years now. Really haven't had any problems with it until now. I have a yellow tang, maroon clown bonded to a bulb anemone and a saddle puffer. I just recently got an juvenile emperor angelfish, which has been doing fine for a week now, but it looks as though it has a white pale coat, spread evenly over his body. The emperor eats, and acts fine, but he/she doesn't use its back body to swim (like he/she is stiff or paralyzed). It basically swims using only his/her side fins, but still swims around the tank like a normal fish. The emperor doesn't have any parasites on him/her, and I have researched many diseases on the internet that doesn't match what he/she has. The emperor has been like this for about two weeks now, and doesn't look like it has been getting better or worse. Now, I pulled the emperor out of the tank and put it in a QT tank that has been running for about two months, and treated it with Coppersafe to make sure parasites, that I couldn't see, were not the problem. He/she has been in the QT tank for 4 days now, but still the discoloration and lack of movement in the body still exists. I don't know what it might be, if you have any ideas what I can do please let me know.
Thanks,
Alena
<<Alena, what I think you are observing is two things... one, these fish often swim like this, saving the caudal [tail] fin for a mad-dash to cover. Two, I would hazard a guess that this fish just doesn't need to swim that hard... a 55 is really much too small for this fish, and likewise you may not have extreme currents in the system. Although it is small now, they grow to about a foot and I've seen these where they live - they get BIG. So... it's probably not very exercise challenged. I would skip the quarantine, consider another powerhead for the tank and start saving for the 240. Cheers, J -- >>

Size of Fish per Size of Tank
I have a 75g reef system, and just love emperor angels. I have a chance to get a small Red Sea juvenile. I'm wondering how long it would take to outgrow a 75g before I can move up to a 125g tank? Can an emperor survive in a 75g tank permanently? <He would probably be okay for about a year.  It will not be able to live in there long term as they can grow to be 16”.  Cody>

- The Emperor has no Space -
Hi Guys,
<Good evening, JasonC here...>
I have received good advice from the crew in the past and hope maybe you can help me with my current problem.
I have an Imperator Angel 6" adult in a 90 gallon tank, I know this is small for this fish, but house is too small for bigger tank, I also have a 125 gallon community tank. <This fish should really be in the 125...> My problem is that the Imperator has large faded white spots all over it's body, I treated with Copper Safe and after 4 days the spots went away, I kept the copper in the 10 days as suggested then started to pull it out with copper remover, poly filter and water changes, within 2 days the spots started to reappear and are most noticeable in the morning and less at night. I then suspected that maybe it is a vitamin deficiency so I give the fish Nori algae every day and at first it seemed to work, the spots went away, I really thought I solved the problem, but within 2 days the spots came back. My nitrates are not terrible for a fish only tank 20ppm, I don't know what to do next, any advice would be appreciated. <The white spots are typically caused by water quality issues, but can also be a general indicator of mood, as in the fish is not happy in it's current surrounds. These fish get much larger that this and are used to much more room to roam. I would look carefully into collateral damage from the copper treatment, as it typically stalls out biological filtration. Do a couple of decent-sized [25%] water changes and go from there.>
Thanks
Fred
<Cheers, J -- >

- Baked Emperor -
Gentleman,
<Good morning, JasonC here.>
I have an Emperor Angel.  He has been fat and happy since the day I bought him.  Has just started to turn colors and has stopped eating and is quite lethargic.  I don't know what is wrong.  Water parameters are good although the temp gets to around 88 this time of year due to the heat and humidity.  Any suggestions??
<Yeah, do something about that temperature, it is much too high.>
tks
John
Cape Cod
<Cheers, J -- >

Quick Question
Hi Bob. About a month or so ago I wrote you about my 110 gal all fish
setup, which has now been setup for 3 months. At that time I had a 4"
juvenile colored Imperator Angel and a 2.5" cleaner wrasse. I'm happy to
report the Angel is doing GREAT, totally disease free, very active, brightly
colored, and accepts 7 different kinds of foods! 
<Ah, good news>
The cleaner wrasse is great, too. Just last week I added a 3" gold-rimmed Maroon clown, and
(against your advice, but I couldn't resist trying) a 2.25" juvenile
Atlantic Rock Beauty (Holocanthus Tricolor). At first Mr. Imperator bullied
him, but the Rock Beauty is such a pesky little thing that he wasn't
daunted, and he feeds great and is VERY ACTIVE, and now the Imperator has
JUST ABOUT accepted him fully in his "kingdom." 
<Wowzah, very surprising and good news>
I'll probably add a few butterflyfish and either a Red Sea Purple or Sohal
tang, and that's it.
<Probably about all the 110 can handle for now> 
The Emperor still dominates my tank, and above all, I want him to continue
to grow and prosper. My question is, what is the max size you think a 4"
Emperor can or will grow to in a 110 gallon tank?
<About eight inches... which can be pushed into about a year, but will be much better to drag into two, three... until you can offer it larger, better quarters>
Dimensions are 30" H x
18" W x 48" L. I'd like to keep him in this tank until he's 8 or 9 inches,
and then move him to a bigger 150 or 180 gallon, which I'll probably buy
next year sometime. Also, how long do you think it'll be until this fish
reaches the aforementioned 8 or 9 inches?
<As stated... a year or more depending on feeding, other factors... will be much happier, healthier in a larger system>
As always, thanks for your advice. One of these days soon I'm going to
pick up your book on Marine fishes, I hear it's pretty great.
<Me too>
Regards,
Scotty Knight, Erie, PA >>
<Bob Fenner>

Juvenile Empower Angel
Bob,
As you responded so well to my last e-mail of sometime ago, I am writing to
you on another subject - namely that of the swimming condition of my
J.E. Angel. He is about 5" long and still very much in his juvenile state and
lives in a 60UK G fish only tank with live sand and external wet & dry
filtration. Skimmer is a Seaclone as I have not changed it yet but will
hopefully soon.
His body is OK with no markings or sores etc, however he is swimming very
"awkwardly". When he swims upwards he uses "all" his body to propel
himself - that is what it looks like and he also seems to be spending a lot
of time by the skimmer pump inlet. He is not caught by the pump as he can
swim away quite well - maybe he likes it there?
<Maybe... does it ever swim "normally"?>
He is feeding OK with frozen brine shrimp (1/2 a cube a day) + flakes + a
square of algae sheet.
I have had him some 5 - 6 months and he has only been like this for the past
month or so, before that he was fine.
The water parameters are fine - checked last night - pH - 8.6 (always has
been), Ammonia - 0 , Nitrite - 0 , Nitrate - 20 & Phosphate - 0.25.
Any thoughts would be welcome.
Best regards, Scott
PS - LFS has stated that my wet & dry filter (Eheim 2329-85) would overcome
the usefulness if the skimmer and therefore it would not be necessary to
change the skimmer as it would not pull anything out! Any response??
>>
<Don't understand the logic behind/in front of the above stmt... and disagree with same... the Seaclone is a gimmick... and you will definitely see more and worse/better "gunk" removed via a real skimmer... with or w/o a/the wet-dry...
Re the angel, something may be amiss (evidenced by its swimming), but... as to cause/cure? A genetic, developmental anomaly? Lack of nutritional component? Some aspect of metabolite poisoning? Many other possibilities... I would use activated carbon once a month, get/use a better skimmer, and vary the diet...
Bob Fenner

Re: Advice
Bob:
Great website! I have been looking for something decent, the Emperor FAQ was quite useful. These fish (emperors) act very funny with their antics.
<Yes, very intelligent fish>
One more for you. I have a 95 Reef Ready tank with the following:
Adult Emperor 5"
Asfur Angel 2.5"
Lemonpeel 2"
Flame 2"
Adult African Clown (formosa) wrasse 4"
Sixline wrasse 1.5"
mixture of corals (dead) and 6-7 pieces of live rock (lots of hiding places). 25 watt UV and Skimmer.
I know that this tank is stocked up to the max at this point, any comments?
<Umm, total agreement with your stocking assessment... as of now, and a caution that you are going to need a much larger system soon (let's say three hundred gallons plus) or to trade in the Asfur in a year or so, and then the Emperor... Bob Fenner>
Thanks again for your advice. Chris

Pomacanthus imperator
Hi Bob. I really enjoy and appreciate your site. I was wondering why
there was nothing like this on the net and then I found your site last
week. Excellent! 
<Great! Glad we found each other>
Here's my question: I have a juv. emperor angel. I've
had him for about a year now and he seems to be making good progress
towards his adult coloration. Is it normal for a captive specimen to
develop a normal adult color pattern? 
<Yes, over time... sometimes with not much growth>
I seem to remember reading once
that captive juveniles rarely attain full adult markings. Is there
anything specific I can do to encourage or assist the change (specific
foods, supplements, etc.)?
<Hmm, nothing specifically... Keep up regular maintenance, use live rock (replacing some every year or so), providing a mixed diet... possibly enriching same with a vitamin and iodide adjunct... Bob Fenner>
Thanks. Again, great site!
Walt