FAQs about the Imperator Angel
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Emperor Angel/s dead without apparent
Hello WWM crew.
I know that a specific answer for my question is difficult but at least
I want to try.
In the last 2 years I have tried to introduce 2 different juvenile
emperor angels in my tank, the first a year ago, and the other just
Both have died without warning after a week in the tank. Both did not
show any signal of disease and both showed a very good behavior. No
disease signs (body in perfect shape), nobody harassing them and eating
well, no hiding.
The parameters are good; the food has been very varied (frozen mysis,
Cyclops, prepared food, pellets, tlf algae and many small critters in
the live rock).
The tank is a FOWLR 135 gal and the other fishes are 2 Firefish, a
royal gramma, a flame angel fish, a hippo tang, and a fire and cleaner
Most fishes I have introduced had survived with the exception of a
couple of cardinal fish (I also have had very bad luck with these guys
and I don't plan to get more until captive breed are available in
I am considering the same with the angel imperator, no to try more
before I can gain considerable more experience and know more about the
possible cause of their dead.
Thank you so much for your time and help.
<Mmm, the first explanation that comes to mind is either just
"bad luck" w/ the two specimens, or trouble from their
origination... bad handling, perhaps collection... I would try another
supplier, and make sure of getting a specimen of optimum initial size
(3-4" length). The fact that the other fishes you list have done
well points to other factor/s than environment, and that the specimens
fed well on a variety of foods... Have your supplier look to order your
specimen from Quality Marine if you're in the US or TMC in the
UK... Oh, eventually (a year or two) you'll need a larger system.
Re: Emperor Angel dead without apparent cause
Thank you so much for your answer.
I was feeling bad for failing to keep this beautiful fish again.
Now that you mention, all the fishes have been purchased from a Quality
Marine supplier with the exception of the hippo tang, the cardinals and
the emperor (the last two without any luck). The before mentioned makes
me realize that getting the fishes from a reputable source is half of
the recipe for success.
Unfortunately the only store that imports fishes from Quality Marine to
my country does it with very low frequency.
<... .sk, Slovakia? Have them try the London principal location of
Tropical Marine Centre:
Comparative... very fine folks, livestock and drygoods>
Thanks Again Bob, your help and advice was very valuable to me.
<Nos vemos mi amigo. BobF>
Emperor Angel Selection 9/21/10
Just inquiring for your opinion on an Emperor Angel.
We are considering purchasing one from Fosters and Smith
<I wouldn't purchase this fish online>
they are listed as being from the Maldives.
Should we look at region when we are looking at them because we have
seen so many different Emperor Angels, is any one better than the other
as far as survival rate?
<Ones from the Red Sea, yes>
The size of the fish is a small juvenile 1 3/4 to 2" is that too
small or should we look for a bigger specimen?
<Look for ones at about 4 inches, in adult colouration>
It will be housed in a 75 gal. hospital tank (with a Marine Betta and a
White Mouth Moray)
<You mean Gymnothorax meleagris? This animal can get to 4 foot and
is a fish eater.. not compatible with what you list, have you read
here? A species to avoid http://www.wetwebmedia.com/moraysii.htm?h=
we do also run copper (SeaCure) in the 75 gal tank,
<You should not use any dyes at all with Moray eels, I would be
using quinine here http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm
how long should this or any other fish be exposed to copper?
<Two weeks max, but in the case of the Moray -- never>
Can it affect them in any way?
<Oh yes, read here on WWM re.>
We plan on having our 210 gal tank up and running soon.
<This is not large enough for an Emperor Angel, you want 300+ for
this. As for the Moray I have no idea on a recommended tank size, but
I'm pretty confident that a 210g will not be large enough for even
just him. Bob or Marco might know more I'm sure one of them will
chime in if I am wrong>
We also just recently heard that running activated carbon in a tank can
cause some problems with some Angelfish (lateral line erosion) is there
any truth to that?
<This is an ongoing debate.. there is no definitive answer to this
as far as I am aware>
And is it a good idea purchasing a Emperor Angel online or is it best
to be able to see the specimen before you purchase them?
<With these fish you ALWAYS want to see them. How they react, how
they feed, swim, index of fitness i.e. thinning of head & body et.
Al. These need to be seen before purchase, but an Emperor will outgrow
your system in time anyway. Perhaps the smaller-growing and easier
Koran would be a better choice.
This would still be incompatible with the Gymnothorax though>
But that is hard to do in our area, don't have any real good fish
selection from our local fish stores. We love the Red Sea Emperor
Angel, is there any way to tell the Emperor Angels apart when they are
<Not to my knowledge, no. Adults from the Red Sea do not have the
streamers on the top fin, but neither do Emperors from some other
Thank you ahead for any kind of info you can give us.
<I'm sorry to not have some better news for you, but I do think
you need to re-think your strategy here somewhat. Simon>
Maculosus angelfish 8/25/10
just want to share a picture of my Pomacanthus maculosus. It is
the white variant instead of the normal yellow one from Taiwan.
It's a captive bred specimen and I love it so much. Your
article on P. maculosus is right.
Beautiful, hardy and easy to keep.
<Thank you for sharing. Bob Fenner>
Emperor Angel success... hlth., sel. --
Tanks <Is this a bad joke, or do you mean 'thanks'?>
in advance for what I know will be the best answer I can get on this
<Let's hope so>
I got a gorgeous 6" Emperor 3 days ago as a birthday gift.
<Oooooh.. a front runner in the 'most beautiful fish'
category for sure>
Adult colors directly from Vanuatu. No middle dealer. Very fat, eats
good, eyes & fins clear. The local shop dipped him in FW mixed with
Methane Blue upon arrival.
He stayed in that solution for 10 minutes. I'm a friend of the
official "dipper" guy there. He told me that night what a
great specimen that had just come in and that I should consider
acquiring it for my 320 FOWLER tank.
<Yes, but I have the controversial viewpoint that these special
fishes should be placed in a reef system of size, not fish only. 320
gallons is a nice size tank however>
I was hesitant to do so as I had heard over the years that Emperors
from Indo aren't as hardy as the Red Sea or Australian ones.
<This is true for all fishes initially, but once settled in most
rate 'about the same'>.
He talked me into coming down to see it, I did, loved it but still did
not want such a touchy species.
<Hmm, this is THE fish in my opinion, and the one that I would have
chosen over all others>
I was looking to get a Koran
<A great fish and easier than the Emperor>
<A very beautiful fish, but too aggressive in general for me.
Neither of these are as beautiful as the Emperor>
The Emperor stayed in QT at the shop for 2 weeks. All QT tanks are
supplied a constant low dose of Prazi-Pro.
My birthday was the next day, and my friend there bought it from the
shop owner at a fantastic price as a gift for me.
He brought it over, we set up my 40 gallon tub QT tank I learned about
from Bob's book, and he's now been in there with main tank
water, 2 pieces of live rock, sponge filters from main sump.
<This will be fine for the short term>
Eats great, eyes, fins still clear. I thanked him but told him I was
still unsure about adding the new fish to my tank due to its rating on
your site. He said if it got sick, he'd help me with it. That just
doesn't bring me comfort. I'm an intermediate fish keeper,
<soon to be an expert now> and poured over your article on these
fish, and my heart just sank. It was good to see they were hardier than
some of the other Angel species, but these from Indo are not high on
<I would not worry too much here -- if he is eating and not hiding
then the battle is nearly won. He should be 'interested' in
everything including you, and react immediately to any sudden movements
but not so much that he tries to hide away. He should move away, but
come right back again afterwards. The danger is when they first come in
they are spooked>.
My only other inhabitants are a Kole tang and a pair of Raccoon
<Yes, and these will be fine with your Emperor in this sized system.
A beautiful group indeed>.
Again I was saving all of that room for a Koran or Passer.
<No, you have made the right choice here for sure>
I plan to add a harem of dithers later.
I read through your FAQ's on these fish. I see a lot of folks are
dealing with HLLE, lesions, pimples, mouth tumors and ich.
<Yes, hence my earlier comment re: 'reef' systems for this
fish. Emperor Angels WILL show signs with deteriorating water quality,
first of all with lighter 'patches' and spots all over the
fish, so you should endeavour to keep your FOWLR at so-called
'reef' parameters, particularly with regards to
I wrote down all of your suggestions to combat those issues and have no
fear about providing sponge, vitamins and macro-algae
<Yes, he should have all of these. Feed him Nori as well, and not
too much meaty fare, this is too fatty>
to the tank for him if he ever makes it over there.
<It sounds like he should make it ok. Watch the Ammonia in the
Bob, if you are reading this one, I also see where you endorse the use
of Tropic Marine Center's (in the UK) carbon product for general
water quality lesions.
<<I definitely do. A very good product/quality. RMF>>
<Hmm, I know nothing about this particular product, except to say
that I would be running carbon in this system -- will place in
Bob's folder for his comment here if he has one>
I can give it back, so it's not like I'm stuck. The fish is a
kind fella, and eats so well.
I already use those vitamins you suggested with my other fish, and plan
to get iodine for him as well.
<No reason for him to 'need' this that I know of>
With so few tank mates, vitamins, iodine, TMC's carbon product,
good live rock, sponge, macro-algae, hide spots and careful
observation, please, honestly, do you think this beauty from Vanuatu
can live well here?
<Yes I do>
You said they have a dismal survival rate from this part of the world.
Does that mean they get ich/parasites more than the average fish (like
the blue hippo tang I had years ago) and could die from it?
<No, this is more because of the collection techniques in that part
of the world. It is the indo-pacific Pygoplites that have this bad rep
w/ regard to diet etc.>
Or can they live good healthy lives in the right environment and with
great care, but just a short life span of a handful of years?
<Should live 20 years+ in your system with good care>
I cannot handle seeing white spots on fish. Freaks me out. Sleepless
nights, nosebleeds, just a general sense of dread and impending
Your article also suggested they stay in QT a full 4 weeks. Your final
warning of "trust me" scared me. That would mean another 2
weeks in my QT here, for a total of 4 weeks. Will this 40 gallon stress
him out before the 2 weeks are up so much that he could be weakened by
<If you are happy that there are no parasites then I would move him
after two weeks, as long as he is feeding well, and behaving as stated
I was thinking I could use this time to boost his system up real good
with Selcon, Boyd's Vita Chem, iodine and the other vitamins you
suggested of C, E, D, and A.
<Yes -- the easiest food to add this to is Nori>
So if/when I add him to the main display he'll be able to fight off
any illnesses that may present themselves. I used filtered tap water
for 3 years, but have recently switched to RO water 2 months ago.
<Will be necessary here -- do make sure you have the added
'DI' element as well -- very cheap to add>
As such, my nitrates are fluctuating between 20-30 after weekly 60
gallon water changes.
<This is too high. Nitrates want to be below 10 consistently,
preferably even lower. You should be able to achieve this with your
system and stocking list no problem at all -- have you read here?
All of the junk from the tap water is embedded into the live rocks, and
my friend says it'll take another month or so of clean water
changes to dilute the tap water present. 3 fish in a 320 should not
produce that high of a reading, so it must be the old water still
<I would work on this with gusto -- have you considered that there
might be another 'source' such as a filter clogged w/ debris
Well, that's my long winded dilemma. Can this Emperor from Vanuatu
really stay colorful and healthy with me doing all I have learned from
your site? I respect your opinions, look forward to your
<Yes he (she?) can. I do think that this whole system should now be
geared towards providing for this very special animal. If you do this
then you WILL be rewarded in kind many times over>.
Take care, and thanks Jeff.
<No problem Jeff, and good luck to you with your Emperor.
Mis-placed Imperator Angel 12/12/09
Sorry to be a pain, I was chatting to bob recently about my blue faced
angle that has sadly past on due to getting stuck in behind a piece of
Now I am in trouble with his replacement.
8 days ago, I was in my LFS looking for a new feature fish for my reef
tank, the sales man sold me a rather large Emperor Angel (about 25cm)
<? Was this fish collected at this size? Or did it grow up in
Large specimens of most all fishes collected in the wild have difficult
time "adjusting" to captive conditions>
We talked it over at length as I was a little concerned that he was a)
too big for my tank
<I see below your tank is 4 by 2 by 2 feet. This specimen is WAY too
and b) would nip at my corals
<Might well do so>
and c) had read here that they are not so easy to keep.
<The "orange chested ones" from further into the Indian
Ocean, Red Sea can be hardy, the western Pacific ones have a dismal
survival history by and large>
The guy assured me all was well and he would be "the perfect
feature in my reef tank".
<Take this animal back. Now>
Well "bertha" is the perfect gentleman when it comes to
corals and never touches them, he eats the spectrum finicky fish
formula that I feed, although he is not a ferocious eater, a little
picky. He also seems to love picking at the Sushi sheets I throw in
every now and then, and seems to be happy, but he is not looking
healthy. He is going blotchy in the black under his belly and his eyes
are just a little cloudy, he also spends a lot of time just sort of
hanging over the live rock. Due to his size I couldn't put him in
my "Q" tank and at first thought he might have ich, but for
the life of me I can't see it even though he spends a lot of time
with the cleaner shrimp on him.
<A transient infestation. Something is still there>
The water parameters in the tank are pretty much spot on. Ammonia 0,
nitrite 0 nitrate 0, SG 1.024, Ph 8.1, KH 250, calcium 480, temp 25
Degrees C (Chiller installed) . Water is crystal clear , I use Ozone.
Corals are all flourishing, wide open and fully extended, even my 12
Inch magnifica anemone is looking fantastic.
Other fish are happy and are very bright with no sign
of and ich (even the 2 blue tangs). But I am concerned that this fish
has not settled in. I have read over your posts about these angles and
saw that they are not considered easy to keep, but I thought that if
the tank had good water quality and they were well fed with hiding
caves etc they "could" be kept.
<Not in the shape or volume system as yours. A specimen of this size
really needs to be in something at least twice the size... eight feet
There are several caves for him to hide in as well as he can get behind
the live rock up against the back of the tank right out of site. I
can't put my finger on why he is like he is. Would it be that he is
for a 4ft reef tank?
and that he is stressed at the tank size.
He has heaps of swimming room available. Any guidance would be
fantastic. If he is not right for this system I will take him back.
In saying that, in store he was in a 1/3rd of the size of mine and was
fully coloured, swimming round looking great with about 5 other angels
in the same tank.
<Can be thus crowded in short terms>
Setup of my tank
Sump with 5kg Matrix and 1 reef block ( supposed to filter 1000L on
own), Polyfilter pad and filter wool.
Reef Octopus hurricane skimmer rated to 1000L with Ozone connected
2 x 4000LPH Tunze 6045 Power heads plus 2 x 1000LPH Aqua One power
3500lph return pump on sump
150w 14000k MH x 2 plus 4 x PC Actinic Blue
60Kg Live rock in tank
3 Hammer corals, 2 leather finger corals, 1 Gorgonian fan, 1 Green tree
coral and approx 15 mushrooms corals assorted
4 x blue green Chromis
2 x blue tangs ( 2 inches)
2 x 1 Inch long yellow twin spot wrasse
<Is this Coris aygula? If so it will get too large here...
approaches 3-4 feet in the wild>
1 x Yellow tang
4 x Nemos, 2 orange, 2 black
1 x Juvi Koran Angel ( 3 inches)
1 x Foxface (2 inches)
<W/o the Emperor, your system is already topped off fish-wise. I
would not add more fish life here>
Thanks again for all your help.
<Feel free to show your stockist my comments here. I'd ask that
they credit you for the Imperator. Bob Fenner>
Re: Mis-placed Imperator Angel
Done Done Done and thanks again Bob,
I went through the first 12 months of Marine keeping without finding
your website, hopefully this will be the last question for you.
<I hope not!>
I am about to set up a fish only 350L system, which is currently
Hopefully this will be a smooth transition. Thanks to the valued
resources on your site, I think I have a huge head start.
P.s. I now really owe you a good time in Sydney. Make sure if you want
to dive our temperate waters, you give me a shout.
<I definitely will. Am a very keen diver, U/W photographer... as
you'll hopefully see. Cheers from drizzly S. Cal., Bob
150 FOWLR Stocking Livestock Selection Tangs and Angels.
I have a couple of questions. First off I have a 150 tall and its a
FOWLR tank. 150lbs LR, g4 skimmer, Coralife 1720gph pump.
My first question is can you keep a small angel (pygmy) with a Lrg
angel (emperor) putting the small in first.
<Yes, but the 150 is not rally large enough for a big Angelfish -
they need a longer tank.>
Next question is tangs and angels(Lrg). which go in first. I would like
to get a hippo, a yellow, and the emperor.
I have heard two different opinions. One is that tangs go last because
there very territorial. The other opinion is the angel goes last cause
there more aggressive. Or do I get the scratch to buy all three and put
them in all at once? I will be upgrading to a 300 to 500 gallon as all
fish grow later on.
<I would add the Angel last, will be the most aggressive of the
Thank Again and p.s. GREAT SITE!!!!!!!!!
200 Gal Stocking\Quarantine\Angels and Wrasses, Lymph...
I was scanning the FAQ regarding Lymphocystis(sp) and am not
particularly worried about it, but it is there, nonetheless. I have a
200 gallon tank 6' long filtered by a trickle filter, Fluval FX5
(no foam or media other than ceramic pieces, strictly for circulation)
and a Prizm Pro protein filter that produces nasty waste.
<Keep an eye on the canister filter. With ceramic media, it can
become a biological filter and thus become a nitrate factory.
<I've personally had better luck using my canister filters for
light mechanical and chemical filtration.>
A decision is coming soon regarding the stocking of the tank and
removal of some livestock. It has been stocked with A Passer Angel of
6", a yellow tang of 4", a Tomini tang of 4", a Lunare
wrasse of 6", Tomato clown, lawnmower blenny and two original
There is also a colony of Clavulariid (sp) in it as well, which has
spread from a frag to a 6 inch in diameter colony.
<Clavulariid is correct: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/clavulariids.htm
I have always wanted to keep an Imperator angel as my primary fish, but
acquired the Passer about two years ago and he's been here ever
since. I purchased a small Imperator
angel and placed him immediately, no quarantine. He is 3". (The
reason for no quarantine is documented well in your FAQ by now, Bob
surely remembers lengthy emails regarding a battle with ich that lasted
months, killed numerous fish, was treated with formalin and quinine,
and was finally bested with... garlic.)
<I hope you still at least used a dip of some sort:
Following the success of introducing the Tomini tang as a test fish
with no QT (And I do stress that I am not recommending this... it was
more of a theory test for me personally, and for me has worked) and
aggressive feeding with Garlic Extreme with no occurrence of Ick, I
followed the same procedure with this Imperator.
The fish were watched very closely for the next few days. Realizing
that placing two angels together is not advised, I was prepared to
remove the Passer if needed. Not to mention I have read that it is not
advisable to purchase a specimen quite this small.
<3" is a bit small. Provided the fish was not beaten up in
collection, it should be fine.>
After three weeks all fish are doing exceptionally well. There is no
quarreling whatsoever. The young Imperator has adjusted extremely well,
and all fish co-exist better than possibly imagined. I am going to
reduce the stocking on this tank in the very near future, beginning
with the Lunare wrasse, which is voracious, active, and has leaped onto
the carpet twice during feeding times (and placed back into the tank
begins feeding immediately). My best guess as to why the two tangs and
two angels get along is probably due to different body types, sizes,
The Imperator developed the Lymphocystis almost immediately... a cotton
patch on the end of one fin (Pec fin? On the side...). It does not
affect him, other than of course it is not attractive. The Wrasse will
eat cleaner shrimp, cleaner gobies. Best course of action, do you
think, is to leave it be?
<Yes, it will pass in time.>
Water chemistry is excellent.
I've had no increases in nitrates since the introduction of the
Tomini and Imperator.
At some point we may remove the Passer so that he can delight someone
else, as the Imperator grows. The Imperator currently follows the
blenny around... perhaps they enjoy each others company.
Re: 200 Gal Stocking\Quarantine\Angels and Wrasses,
Imperator Angel sel. f' 6/18/2009
I thought he was a bit small, too. I had been looking for the
'right' Imperator for a while. This one had been at the LFS for
3 weeks, was very active and alert and ate readily at my request to
feed, so I took a shot.
<The recommended sizes given are just that, recommendations. I would
have no issues with purchasing an angel that small given the same
I'm really surprised at how well the fish are getting along.
<The Passer does not see the juvenile Imperator as a threat.>
There isn't even any posturing between the fish. It's like a
I would imagine at some point we'd have some disagreements as the
Imperator grows, but we shall see.
<I would expect some, but as your tank is large, they may be able to
partition the space amongst themselves without too much
There's been stranger tankmates, I'd guess!
<Indeed there are.>
Emperor Angel, Sel. - 03/10/08 Good Evening Crew,
<Steven> I have a question regarding location for Imperator
angels. Are the Imperators from the Christmas Islands more
desirable than from other locations? <Mmm, yes... than most
all other common sources... e.g. the Philippines and Indonesia...
though not as desirable by far as the same species out of the Red
Sea...> There is about $100 premium being asked for about the
same size angel, only one has an orange colored tail and is from
Xmas Island. Your thoughts / comments are much appreciated. And
as always thanks for what you do. Best regards, Steven <See
WWM re this species Selection. Bob Fenner>
Re: Emperor Angel sel. 03/11/2008 Crew
(Bob), Thanks for your email. Would you then concur that Xmas
Island is more desirable then Central Pacific & Eastern /
South Asia. <In general, yes> How would you rate specimens
from Xmas Island, Australia and Red Sea? <The Red Sea
highest... the other locales about equal... more to do with
discerning individual specimens> There is quite a difference
in price depending on region and I want my chances to be the best
they can if a premium is substantiated based on where collected.
Many thanks on your response. Best regards, Steven <Welcome.
Re: Emperor Angel, sel. 3/12/08
Bob, <Steve a reeno> Many thanks again. One more
question.... I promise! I did purchase today a Imperator from
Aquacon from the New Caledonia region. From speaking to the folks
at Marine Depot Live, Aquacon, and Marine Center, the regions of
the Red Sea as well as New Caledonia rarely see any of these
angels caught in less than 6" range. The one I bought from
Aquacon is quite large, however I spoke to the owner and he
indicated they have had this fish in quarantine for a little over
a month and the fish is eating well and seems to have acclimated
to aquarium life. I have acclimated fish previously using the
float, drip, test and if OK then net and release. With this being
as large of a fish (much larger than the other fish I have
acclimated), I am afraid of the amount of ammonia that will be
present, as well as the lowered PH level. Would you recommend a
small drop of Amquel+ after floating the bag and then a drip
procedure, or stabilize temperature, net and introduce.
<Mmm... depends on the apparent health... have you read my
pieces on acclimating marines on WWM?> My tank has been
established for several years, is 300 gallons (small weekly water
changes + refugium) and house 1 moray eel, 1 Blond Naso, 1
Chevron, and 1 Orange shoulder Tang.....no new additions in over
one year. Your thoughts on this size of Imperator and acclimation
procedure is much appreciated. This guy (or gal) cost a pretty
penny, and I want to give this fish the best chance for success.
Thanks again, Steven <Read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/acclimat.htm Bob Fenner>
Re: Emperor Angel -- Need help ASAP
03/15/2008 Bob (Crew) Sorry, I accidentally hit send before
finished. To continue, I received the Emperor and the water was
cold and bag punctured. The fish seemed rather stable however,
not gilling heavily, and swimming around but not fast, kind of
graceful. I acclimated using a drip method after a few drops of
Amquel+ trying to get temp. and PH stable. The PH was low (low
7's) so after a while the temp. was warmer and I introduced
very gently, very smooth transition no trauma transitioning from
holding container to tank. First night with lights off he grazed
on the few pieces of live rock in the transition tank and was
swimming curiously looking at new surroundings. Water -- no
detectable ammonia, nitrites, or nitrates, SG 1.021, PH 8.4. He
did not eat, but not unusual for first day. Day two, he still was
curiously swimming around picking at live rock. Tonight he darted
around very fast and seemed to have squeezed out something from
his anus...looks like two large loops of spaghetti (maybe
intestines?). One loop looks to have a red crusted something
attached to it. Does not look like parasite or worm...too thick I
think for this, looks like organ to me. Any suggestions or
immediate help is greatly appreciated. <It's probably just
poop attached to a hair (inadvertently swallowed) or some other
stringy material. But without a picture it's hard to say for
sure.> Although he arrived with a punctured bag and rather
cold water, he seemed very stable with normal apparent gill
movement and grazing on live rock...good color too. I was hoping
he would pull through but not sure here. If the situation is
futile please let me know how to mercifully handle this
situation. <Oy, no need to panic just yet I don't think.
Generally, there's an expression used in teaching human
doctors about diagnosis, it goes something like "when you
hear hooves, think horses, not zebras." The same might apply
to fish health too... if the fish seems generally healthy,
chances are that anything coming out of its anus is just poop. If
it were expelling its organs, I imagine it would not appear to be
swimming or breathing normally. But do see if you can get him to
eat something.> Hoping for the best. Steven <Best, Sara
Re: Emperor Angel -- Need help ASAP 03/16/08
Sara, Thanks for your very quick reply. I don't want to
stress the fish with a camera flash but might take a picture
tomorrow AM. I am not sure about this being "poop".
There are two loops not strings that came out of the anus. The
loops are about the diameter of spaghetti and look exactly the
same (symmetrical) in nature. I will be patient and observe, but
something tells me these are supposed to be inside this fish.
These loops are approx. 1/2" in length, they exit the anus
and loop right back in and are a dull white color.
<Interesting... but I still can't think of any condition
or parasite that would cause a fish to expel organs from its anus
(that wouldn't be completely debilitating the fish). To me it
still sounds like the fish ate something it couldn't digest.
But I suppose, it's conceivable that if the fish had an
intestinal worm that died for some reason, it would get expelled
this way. But I don't know. I'm sure a picture would
help. And I do hope Bob or another crew member has more insight
into this...> Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.
Regards, Steven <Best, Sara M.>
Re: Emperor Angel -- Need help ASAP 03/16/08
Sara (Crew), Update as of this AM. The two loops were completely
expelled. <excellent> The whole time the Emperor seemed to
swim normal, continuing to graze on live rock, and peaceful. The
two loops that came out are exactly the same length each (approx.
1.5" circles). They sank to the bottom of the tank and were
of no interest to the other fish, which told me these may not be
organic in nature. My fish tank is quite tall, but I have a long
instrument that I could reach the two pieces so I pulled them
out. THESE TWO FLEXIBLE CIRCLES ARE RUBBER BANDS!!! It seems they
must have been from the shipping bags either in transit to the
retailer or in transit to me. <Hehe! I thought it must be
something like this. I almost even suggested rubber bands, but I
couldn't believe a fish would accidentally eat those. But I
guess it happens!> Emergency over. You were
correct...something he ingested. <Yep, but I'm much too
mature to say "I told you so." ;-)> Thanks again,
Steven <I'm happy for you, the fish. I hope all continues
to go well. Best, Sara M.>
P. imperator in 8x2x2. Mixing Pomacanthus sp. 4/5/07 Hi
Bob / Crew, <*Best Tom Leykis impression;* Hellooooo Matt!> Well
I am finally setting up my 8x2x2 tank <Awesome.> - it will be a
reef tank or sorts with LR, shallow 'sugar fine' sand bed, good
flow and aggressive skimming (large Deltec skimmer). <Sounds good so
far...> Corals will be chosen to suit fish, contrary to the usual
'visa versa' practice. <Nothing wrong with that as long as
it planned ahead and thought out, as you are doing.> The concept
being two large "hollow" mounds (islands) standing
12"-15" or so high, with a couple of branching sps corals
growing on top, allowing plenty of swimming space in-between, around
and under the islands/corals. <Okay.> The pivotal species will be
Pomacanthus imperator. <Amazing and long lived when provided the
right environment...needed space.> My hope is to get a 3" juv.
(preferably red sea) and grow him on to a decent sized adult
(12"+). Rather than the usual practice of trying to squeeze in
half a dozen triggers, wrasse, tangs, and groupers, I would much rather
just have a couple other medium to large tank mates, along with a few
low impact species like gobies, damsels and Hawkfish to "fill in
the gaps". <...And by doing so you (and your pets) will be much
happier in the long-term.> The two tankmates I had in mind were P.
navarchus (majestic angel) and Acanthurus leucosternon (powder blue
tang). <*Personally* I would rather leave out the first
choice. I've rarely seen two different species from this
genus (Pomacanthus) work out together long, cohabitating without
violent aggression in even the largest tanks. As for the surgeon, this
species (and Acanthurus in general) are prone to protozoan illness,
Cryptocaryon and the like. Attain a healthy specimen that is
readily eating...bright, alert of surroundings and quarantine it for no
less than one month.> The plan would be to introduce the two angels
simultaneously after first quarantining in a 48"x12"x12"
with a clear divider for 6 weeks, each angel at about 2-3" (at
this size the navarchus would probably be adult colours and slightly
bigger), and introduce the powder blue 6-8 weeks later (after suitable
quarantine). MY hope would be that is this low stocking environment
that the emperor and majestic would grow together and live in harmony,
the emperor slowly outgrowing the majestic, then the powder blue, such
that I would end up with a 12"emperor, 8-10" majestic, and
6-8" powder blue. Does this sound a feasible plan?
<It is surely planned out and very thoughtful, I have to give you
that. I have seen this attempted in much less suitable
environments. You would have an increased chance in succeeding with
such a plan...and it would probably work short-term, however I feel in
the long-term as their personalities emerged that there would be some
issues.> Am I being over cautious with the stocking plan - would I
get away with adding a couple of other small-medium sized fish i.e.
maybe a yellow tang or yellow long nose Bfly or a flame angel ..... a
couple of fish that sort of size. <In a tank of this size, there
would be more physical room...yes, the territorial/psychological
crowding is the issue. If you are going to go for the two
Pomacanthus angels, I would avoid any other angels all together (even
the flame....Centropyge/dwarfs). But I much preferred the above options
you mentioned instead....smaller Gobioids and such.> Or is my
conservative approach with the 3 aforementioned species much better?
<Conservative, as far as livestock goes is always better in my
experience.> Your thoughts / comments are as always appreciated.
Regards, <To you as well.> Matt <Adam J.> Re: Emperor in
Small Setting....Poor English....Cleaned it up as best I could...
4/5/07 It comes out at about 80 gallons <I was close
enough...same advice still pertains.> it is staying as a fish only
tank have a couple of Chromis at the moment with the emperor its a
4 foot tank by about 2 foot and 2 foot high well like you say
maybe <Now I'm not trying to be rude...but that's not a
maybe...it's a generally accepted truth when dealing with an animal
of this size in captivity.> only short term I'm not to keen
on dwarf angels lol <Tons of other options out there...>
they <Who is they? (Sorry one of my favorite questions).> say
some emperors grow not too fast so really I can't put
any thing else in with it if I was to restart without the emperor
<I'm sorry I don't get the wording of this question...you
can't put anything in with the emperor angel even if you restarted
the tank without the emperor...I don't understand?> what about a
majestic <Same genus as Emperor...most of the same rules (space
wise) would apply...Adam J.> Large (abused) Angel
type? Substrate question? 9/26/06 Hello,
A few quick questions for you if you don't
mind. First, I am looking to buy a
susposive <?> "Imperator" angel from a local guy at a
great price. It's 5"-6"
long. There are two issues. One is
that it looks just like an Imperator but it is missing the black
mask. It's face is all white??? <... Likely the
result of an HLLE syndrome... I'd pass> Any ideas on
what or why this is? <History of poor nutrition mostly> The owner
has had it two years and said that it changed form it's juvineile
<Spell-check, please> color over a year ago. I
don't think that the water quality is so good as he does the water
changes every 6 weeks. Second is that it's top dorsal
fin is kinda jagged and torn. <More evidence of poor environment,
nutrition> Is this any think to be concerned about.
<Mmm... yes> I am getting the Angel and it's 4 tank mates for
$75. Here are the tank mates: 4" maroon clown, 5"
Picasso Trigger, a 4"-5" raccoon butterfly. The
trigger is hand fed I know, I a little concerned about that to) and
comes to the top so you can pet him???? They have all been
together for 2 years in a 120 gallon. Do you see any
compatibility issues here? <... see WWM re each species...> What
is the best substrate for this crew? <Ditto...> Do
you think that I can put my 4"-5" Green wrasse (I think
it's a Halichoeres melanurus) with these fish in my 120
gallon? Can I add a Cole tank to this
bunch? And last, I have a bunch of
1/4"-3/8" crushed coral. Is there any way to get
this finer? Maybe down to 1/8"?
Thanks, as always for you contribution to our hobby!!
Randy <Read on my friend, read on. RMF>
Imperator Angel/Selection 9/18/06 Hey crew, <Hey
Matt> Just a brief question about P. imperator. Considering getting
one. From all the reading I've done, everyone reckons the Red Sea
emperors are much better than Indian Ocean etc. My thing is, I have
enquired with my dealer, and he tells me it is difficult to get a
specimen from his suppliers anything smaller than 6" in adult
colour form. I also understand it is generally better to get a juvenile
than an adult, from the point of view of adapting to captivity. Hence,
my question is - all things being equal, would you consider a small
adult (5-6")from the red sea to be a better (more hardy) choice
than a large juvenile from elsewhere? <I'd probably go with a 3
to 4" juvenile from the Indo Pacific. Read here and related links
above for more info. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/pomacanthus/imperator.htm>
Thanks <You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Pondering Purchase of Imperator Angel - 4/14/2006 Hi WWM
staff! <<Hi Chris.>> First, I would like to thank all of
you at WWM for your time, effort, and advice. I have learned much from
just browsing through the many topics available here. <<You are
quite welcome.>> My question is this: I am considering adding an
Imperator Angel to my established reef tank. The tank is a 120-gallon
system that has been up and running for around 9-10 years. <<Must
be full of life! I personally don't' think a
120-gallon tank can, or should house this fish long-term. I
would opt for double this volume.>> Of course, I have modified
and changed things over that period of time, but basically, it has
grown and done well. From what I have read, the main things I will put
at risk would be my Zoanthids, mushrooms, button polyps, LPS corals,
and my clams. <<I would worry most for my clams.>> I am
moving the tank in the direction of mainly an SPS tank and also have
several SPS frags in place and growing well. Most seem to
agree the angel will leave the SPS corals alone. <<It is really
up to the Angel, but SPS are in the least amount of danger.>>
Really, of those things listed, my only concern would be my clams. I
have 2 4-5 inch Croceas and a large football size derasa that I have
grown for about 7-8 years now. <<Must be lovely.>> My LPS
corals consist of an open brain, small candy cane, and Favia. <<I
would worry about these too.>> Soft corals include Zoanthids,
sea mat, button polyps, mushrooms, star polyps, yellow polyps,
Sinularia, and Lobophytum. If the Imperator would bother any of these
except for the large derasa, I would be more than willing to relocate
them to a friend's tank. <<Always good to have a back up
plan.>> I think my main concern is tank size. My existing fish
are a Powder Blue Tang, 2 Spot Bristletooth, Pyjama Cardinal, 3 clown
gobies, and a lawnmower blenny. <<I would not add this large
angel into this system.>> I've had my eye on the angel at a
local LFS now for 2 weeks. It's approximately 3-4", great
color, actively eating a good variety of foods including pellets,
Mysis, & brine shrimp and has very bold behaviour. I really believe
it is as good a specimen as I could find anywhere and do not want to
let it get away if it would be possible to keep it in my system. I
would be very interested to get your opinion on adding this guy to my
tank with the knowledge that it would be the last fish added even if I
would eventually lose one of the others. <<I really cannot
recommend this fish for your tank. Have you thought of
upgrading the tank size, giving you more stocking freedom? A
Centropyge angel would work as well.>> One other question while
I'm thinking about it, what is your opinion on how clown gobies
interact with SPS corals? I've noticed that they tend to
"perch" in the branches of corals. <<Indeed they
do.>> I've not noticed any detrimental effects other than the
corals seem to keep their polyps retracted when the gobies are there.
Could this possibly harm the corals or cause them undue stress?
<<Highly unlikely. This is a perfectly natural
behaviour. Enjoy it!>> Thank you! Chris <<Glad
to help. Lisa.>>
Emperor Acclimation - 01/09/2006 This is my third
emperor in about 4 months. The first two
were teeny tiny juv.s (about an inch long) <Too small to
start... shame on the collectors> this one is probably
twice that size, maybe a little more. I thought a
slightly older one might get over whatever am missing.
<Better at 3-4 inches overall length> Its starting
off in a 30 gallon fish only ( yes I know, please
don't hurt me! ) <You will do this yourself>
Its tankmates are 3 cinnamon clowns and a
bi-color blenny. <Too small a volume. I hope they are leaving the
angel alone> The first two days after getting
him home he seemed fine, swimming around picking at
the rocks etc. But now after a few days, and like
the last two he is staying at the top, not
moving two much. His breathing
seems normal, his fins seem fine,
coloration gets white and blotchy occasionally, but from
what I've read here, and what I can
see, probably cause he isn't happy about
something. <Like your grammar> I did probably about a
10% water change, maybe a little
more. My readings all "appear
"normal, ammonia and nitrite at 0.0 and my nitrate at
10, is that normal? <Mmm, okay, normal> I
have to admit that my biggest success at saltwater was
a panther grouper who got to about 6 or 7 inches from 1.
<A very hardy aquarium species> Though I
read they are the Oscars of saltwater fish. <An apt
comparison> Back to the angel, ( sorry I have that a.d.d
thing ) <Ahh, I have other shortcomings, not quite so
popular> I have halfheartedly attempted feeding
him different things, but if he isn't well
that would be hard to get him to do? <Yes... or too
stressed... I would not place a Pomacanthus angel in such a small
system, with other fishes as you list...> Eat I
mean. Right now I have the lights off in the tank and
my fingers crossed. What have I done? If
you can possibly tell from this incoherent rambling email.
<Please take a read re our Emperor Angel materials:
and the linked files above. You can avoid mistakes with the knowledge
archived there. Bob Fenner>
Emperor Angel for my tank? 3/30/05 Hi, I was thinking of
getting an emperor angel. But I need clarification on some things. I
heard that they are not very hardy and need sponges in their diet. Is
this true? <Emperors are challenging, but the key is getting a
healthy specimen to begin with. I would suggest purchasing a juvenile
from the Red Sea (you need to trust your dealer!). Ask your fish store
to hold it for a few days and be sure to observe it eating. Be sure to
look carefully for signs of disease, malnutrition or odd behavior. The
fish should "run" as you approach the tank, but healthy well
adjusted specimens will be curious and bold. Avoid any that are
excessively "edgy", shy or that hide constantly. A varied
diet that is rich in marine algae is important. Sponge may or may not
be necessary, but Ocean Nutrition Angel formula is a very convenient
source. Mysis shrimp, high quality pellets and other quality frozen
foods are all good choices.> I have a 75 gallon tank with 30# of
live rock and ~100 pounds of lace rock. Would this be enough to sustain
him? I will be getting an Aqua-C remora skimmer. I love these fish and
would love to have one in my tank. Thanks <A higher proportion
of live rock may be beneficial (more to graze on), but with a variety
of quality food, it should do fine. Do keep in mind that even a
juvenile will outgrow your tank in a year or two. Best Regards.
- Emperor Angel Size - Thanks again, One final question, I
know this is a bit hit and miss but how big should I expect the emperor
to get. Does the fact that I have had him since he was literally 3/4 of
an inch make any difference?? <Well, in the wild these fish are
honkers... almost 18" - but in your system, and especially because
you've had it since it was small, it probably won't get any
bigger than 10" or so.> Thanks. <Cheers, J -- >
Emperor Angels I have a 72 gallon tank with 2 damsels and I
have kept other angels including Korans, Queens, Coral Beauties and the
only ones I couldn't take care of is those Rock beauties.
<sometimes Holocanthus tricolor is hardy and other times they die
for no apparent reason>I was thinking on trying out a juv 4 inch
Emperor Angel. <they are normally pretty hardy fish, but if you have
a hard time keeping angelfish alive I strongly recommend you leave
these fish at your LFS> So with my experience with those angels do
you think that I could take care of one of these? thank you
<Probably not, sounds like you are a very inexperienced aquarist,
you need to keep hardier fish such as groupers, eels, certain species
of wrasses and then graduate to angelfish especially large angelfish
such as the Pomacanthus imperator...which grow to around 15"-in
the long run this fish will be much too large for your small aquarium,
Good luck, IanB>
Imperator Angel Great news! My Auriga butterfly is dong great
now after 3 weeks of good treatment and a diverse mix of foods. Redness
is almost gone and he eats everything! <Very good!> I just
purchased an adult Imperator Angel... not too big, about 6 inches
long. <About my maximum size at purchase for this species.>
He is eating a mix of vegetation, algae, seaweed, broccoli, Nori and
spinach tied to a rock, but he is not interested in any meaty stuff
right now. Very curious... he moves gracefully around the tank, gets
picked-on by the Blue Hippo Tang once in a while because they both
compete for the same rock with the veg. What concerns me, is a small
hole more towards the bottom of his stomach, close to his privates.
Looks like something may have bit him or perhaps it may be some kind of
bacterial infection in his stomach working it's way out?
<Possibly... but doubtful... maybe a "poke" by the Tang,
or a mechanical injury... I wouldn't "treat" for this>
Ho do I know if this fish was cyanided/poised when captured?
<Please read through WetWebMedia.com re cyanide collection,
livestock selection... color, behavior are best clues... not likely
cyanided if eating...> It has been 3 days since introduced , the
good thing is he is roaming around and eating pieces of algae but I am
very concerned about the hole. What could it be? Another thing out of
the norm, the first day he had 2 very long excretions of brown
substance, pretty thick light brown, just hung there attached to him
for a day. Is this normal if he just ate a lot at the store? I thought
there may be an infection? Any feedback would be great. Thanks.
<Best to just keep an eye on this specimen, keep up your efforts at
optimizing the environment. Bob Fenner>
Adult emperor angel Dear Bob, Hope you are keeping well. Been
diving lately ? <Sure... N. Sulawesi last mo., Cozumel the one
before...> - going to be doing some Ko Similan diving in the new
year, in the Andaman sea :-) !! Can't wait. <Should be great>
Anyway, the question in hand concerns P. Imperator. Now bear in mind
that I save 3+ years experience, growing a juvenile emperor through its
colour change to adult, from 2.5" to 6", and lost him due to
a prolonged power cut, in cold miserable old Ireland (i.e. not due to
bad care / husbandry / diet), so I have had reasonable success with the
species. It has been nearly a year now since I lost him, and I'd
dearly love another, but I couldn't go through the whole colour
change thing again! Would you be very oppose to me getting a small
adult specimen? <Not at all... you can likely find an
adult-colored individual about 5 inches overall... that will be
flexible, stable enough to place in captive conditions with little
trouble... In fact, you're close enough to the Red Sea that I would
look for a specimen collected there> In this part of the world I see
lots of folks (in magazines) keeping large imported adults in densely
stocked FO tanks - I can attribute this only to the excellent quality
of livestock from TMC. <These folks have really "got it
together".> Thus I am thinking, that with the little experience
I have with the species, and a tank devoted to just one large fish,
that my odds are even greater than those large FO heavily stocked tanks
I see. <Yes> As I say, livestock comes through TMC, and my dealer
is very good with angels etc, so handling of the fish will have been as
good as is humanly possible, and I am practically guaranteed a healthy
initial specimen. <Good> Tank mates will be a shoal of green
Chromis, a blenny or two, a dwarf angel, and a few cleaner shrimp.
Decor will be simply a large cave that he can swim into, and around,
above and through, and get out of sight (probably build it up on a PVC
pipe structure, so there is loads of room inside it). Then a few pieces
of rock scattered around the tank to break it up. <Very good> As
you can see, I am willing to go to great lengths to ensure that the
entire system is built around the emperor, with no competitive or
aggressive fish, and aquascaped to suit him. I am also a believer of
regular, but small water changes - i.e. 10% weekly. Thanks for reading,
kind regards, Matthew <Do document your efforts, including
reflection on your previous history with the species... and offer same
as an article in PFK, elsewhere... I will help you get placement here
in the States... and later post in WWM if you'd like. Bob
Re: adult emperor angel Dear Bob, Just to say that it pleases
me to think that some-one of your standing would consider publication
of my efforts with this wonderful fish. <It is my opinion that your
observations, experiences would greatly inform and inspire others in
appropriate care, enjoyment...> It is looking very likely that I
will go with this little project of mine as the emperor angel is, for
me, the embodiment of all the best attributes of large marine angels,
indeed marine fish in general. To document the whole process would be
rather exciting for me also - I had a flair for creative writing in the
past, and would very much like to put it to use, writing about
something I love. <Please do begin... and make it known if I/we can
be of service (perhaps supplying images, editing...)> I actually
have a few pics of my old part changed emperor, which although are not
great, would probably be good enough to include. And with my new
digital camera, there will be many more pics of my new one. <Very
good> Thanks again for your reply, it is most encouraging. Kind
regards, Matthew <Be chatting, and writing, my friend. Bob
The Emperor's long fins I'm curious as to where the
emperor angel comes from with the streamer on its dorsal
fin? i have an adult coloration emperor angel
that's a good 7 inches with a streamer at the end of his dorsal
fin? can anybody tell me what part of the
world he is from? and the location? <The elongation of
unpaired fins in this (and many other fishes) is mostly a matter of
size, age and excellent care, not source locale. You can look up
Pomacanthus imperator on fishbase.org for this fish's distribution
range> I've seen some jumbo sized adults without a
streamer? any clues as of why some get the streamers and
some don't. thanks in advance!
<Again, the trailing length of dorsal, caudal and sometimes anal fin
rays is more a matter of good husbandry. Bob Fenner>
(Too small) juvenile emperor angel Good morning, I have a
quick question, I hope. I bought a juvenile emperor (about 2
inches in length) for my 220g FOWLR tank. All water
parameters are good as my other fish are doing very
well. The angel appeared fine at first, although it did take
about a week to start eating (brine shrimp). The last couple
of days it has become completely lifeless, sitting on the gravel and
not swimming and picking around at the live rock, also has stopped
eating. I removed it last night as I noticed its fins becoming very
ragged and its tail almost disappearing over night. I've
watched carefully and do not see any fish picking on it so I'm
assuming it must be some type of parasite. <Or collateral
"stress" reaction... resultant from capture, holding,
shipping... through the chain of custody of the trade to you.> I
gave it a fresh water bath for 8 minutes last night and put it into a
quarantine tank. I was going to put it through a copper
treatment for a couple of weeks to see if this helps, do you think this
is the right thing to do? Any suggestions? If I
do put copper in this quarantine/sick tank how long should it stay in
there. Thanks <Mmm, please take a read through an old
article on this species archived on our site here:
I encourage folks to acquire this fish at 10-14 cm... Yours was/is
likely "too small" to start. I would not copper its water,
but would isolate it as you have, place a bit of live rock for comfort,
water conditioning, food availability, hope to coddle it back to
health. Bob Fenner> Joe
Re: 90 gallon FOWLR Thanks for your response!! Do you think I
could get a year and a half to 2 years with the imperator if I started
with one that's around 2" in length to start? thanks again
<Better to start with a larger specimen (see the www.WetWebMedia.com
site re this species), and plan on a larger tank sooner... Bob
Pomacanthus imperator and Pomacanthus maculosus Hello bob, my
dealer had some show size angel and I fell in love with the 16 to 18
inches imperator and maculosus angel immediately I saw them. do you
think at this size ( 16-18inches) are they easy to keep? <Decidedly
not as easy to keep as ones collected at "reasonable" (a few
inches) in length and raised in captivity... Fishes (actually all
animals) collected "large" are less adaptable to captive
conditions... like food acceptance, getting along with other
"novel" species... And shame on the collectors and retailers
for extracting adults... leave these in the seas to reproduce.> at
the moment they look great. if you were me which one will you purchase?
the maculosus or the imperator angel. and why? <Mmm, neither... as I
am morally opposed to their collection in the first place. Bob
Imperator angelfish questions Hi. I two
questions. First, I have an opportunity to purchase a P.
Imperator that was collected in or around Japan. The catch is that I
will not be able to see the fish before I commit to purchasing it. I
know that there are color variations in P. imperator based upon
geography and have been told that specimens from Japan are uniquely
colored. The problem is, after combing through books and
searching online, I can't find anything that discusses this
variant. Do you know how they are different and/or can you
direct me to a picture of one? <Mmm, no. I have read
(fishbase.org among other places) that the species ranges to S. Japan,
the Ogasawaras... but have never seen it imported (to the west) from
there> This fish would be the only angelfish in a 180 gallon LRFO
system. Finally, I have purchased fish in this manner before
and, with rare exception, most all have thrived. Second
question. I also have the opportunity to purchase a pair of,
or at least one, C. interruptus and also one C.
Multicolor. The fish, if I do purchase them, would go into a
110 reef tank that already has a C. aurantius. I have read
the FAQ's on keeping more than one Centropyge per tank and know
that generally its a bad idea. Not wanting to miss out on
these rare and beautiful fish I'm trying to cover all my bases
before making a decision. I'm wondering if you think that size of
my tank would allow me a greater likelihood of keeping an additional
Centropyge species and, if so, which between the C. Interruptus and C.
Multicolor would be less likely to cause a problem with my C.
Aurantius. <Likely the Interruptus, being a bit
smaller... but Goldens are used to a good amount of space to themselves
(thousands of gallons in the wild). Bob Fenner> Your help and
opinions are much appreciated. Michael Jacobs
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