Bringing Down The Phosphate…Understanding Elevated-pH Phosphate Removal Mechanisms – 03/13/08
Hello, Crew.
<<Greetings, Todd>>
While trying to run down the source of my elevated phosphate in my 225 gal fish and invertebrate system, I would like to bring it down fairly quickly (a band-aid only, I know).
<<Indeed>>
I have read about the method of raising the pH overnight to precipitate the phosphate in the Wet Web Media pages, but I'm too big of a weenie to do this.
<<I see… But Todd, you don’t want to raise the pH for the entire display to the level required to “precipitate” Phosphate, as that would certainly be deadly to the system. Instead, you would “slowly” elevate and maintain the pH at 8.4 to maximize the “binding” of Phosphate to the Aragonite surfaces in your tank. This can be done with Kalkwasser additions, which will also “precipitate” Phosphate from the water column in the area of locally high pH where the Kalkwasser/ Limewater enter the system. The “binding” of Phosphate to the Aragonite surfaces is arguably problematic as there is some speculation that if the Calcite crystals stop growing there is potential for releasing Phosphate. The “precipitation” of Phosphate in the water column may be less problematic since the Phosphate might become coated with organics and be removed by the skimmer. The short-term advantages here for Phosphate removal seem obvious…the long-term effects could be debated, in my opinion. “Complete removal” of Phosphate from the system is likely the best answer…as in the use of macroalgae in a refugium (periodically “pruned” and discarded), the use of reactor with an iron-based binding agent, etc.>>
Can't such a rapid pH change hurt my fish or inverts?
<<Rapid changes to “anything” in your system can be deleterious, yes>>
I also ran across a Korallin product (P04 minus) which apparently complexes the phosphate to something that is easily skimmed (I have a pretty aggressive skimmer running), thereby "exporting" the phosphate through the skimmer. Any experience with this method?
<<Not personally, but I do have a friend here in town who owns an LFS/Service business who swears by this stuff. But then, he swears by “everything” he sells [grin]>>
I worry about what desirable ions it might bind and remove via my skimmer.
<<Indeed…and maybe not so much removal by the skimmer as just outright precipitation from the water column. The literature seems to indicate the product may cloud the water…and to keep an eye on KH to prevent a dangerous drop… Warning flags? Sure… But then this product is likely no more dangerous to your system than Kalkwasser. Give it a try if you wish. But just like anything else, use good sense/judgment…and proceed with caution>>
Thanks in advance for your help and thanks for the great web page!
Todd in Montana
<<Happy to share. EricR in SC>>

PO4 Trouble... soln.s    2/5/08
Hello Crew!
<Patrick>
I've recently switched over from a 125 gallon reef setup to a 200 gallon setup successfully with no losses under your guidance. The old setup had a huge PO4 problem due to the flake food I used to feed the fish. This had caused the rocks to acquire a green tint to them. During the switch, I transferred the rock to a huge bin which I kept all the premixed saltwater in for the new tank. There was no lights over this setup, only a few powerheads and a heater.
<... for?>
Once the new tank was up and running, I noticed the rocks had gained their white, tan coloration back. I figured the 5 day dark period had gotten rid of the algae growth.
<Mmm>
I had failed to acknowledge the PO4 that remained in the new water itself.
<Yes>
The new tank has been setup for about 4 weeks now, and I am having trouble with a brown and green algae film coating the glass, causing me to have to clean it every other day compared. From talking to other reefers, most people are reporting only having to do this every week or so.
The green coloration is starting to come back on the rock work and really beginning to take a toll on the tank aesthetically. I've tried testing the water for phosphates, but the API test kit I have leaves results inconclusive due to the fact that it is VERY hard to read. The coral have shown minimal growth results, and I'm thinking it may be due to the high phosphates.
<And do know that phosphate in a few chemical formats... may not register... as being readily "bound up", being used here...>
All food entering the tank (frozen mysis, silversides, and DT's oyster eggs) is thoroughly defrosted and rinsed with RO/DI water before entering the tank.
<Good>
DT's phyto is also fed about once a week. I'm currently running GFO
<For the unfamiliar with this acronym: granular ferric oxide (GFO) or alumina oxide (AO) are typically employed in fluidized media reactors...>
and no carbon. I have a refugium full of Chaeto and all water changes and top off is done with RO/DI water. Water parameters are currently:
Ammonia and Nitrite 0
Nitrate < 5
pH 8.2 - 8.4
Ca 420
Alk 11 dKH
Mg 1150
Phosphate ?
Will running the GFO and changing it out every 4 days or so make a dent in the algae development?
Should I employ more herbivores to combat the development of the algae?
What would be a good way of ridding this algae from the rocks besides light deprivation (there are already corals in the tank)
<... Competition, anaerobic binding, export through macro-algal culture...>
Thanks again for the help. Your website and advise has always proven helpful.
BTW if you get a chance can you tell Mr. Fenner that I had just picked up his book and it has made a huge difference in my husbandry... Thanks again.
Patrick in Cali
<Mmm, please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/nutrientcontrol.htm
and the linked files at top... am wanting to hypnotize/sensitize you here... to the magic and mystery of sump/refugiums... Bob Fenner>

Phosphate – 08/08/07
Good morning,
As always, thank you for your wonderful website and for sharing your amazing knowledge with us! I just have a quick question.
<Thanks, I will try to help>
I have been battling hair algae, and came to the conclusion that phosphate in my tap water is fueling the beast. As a result, I have been using bottled RO water until I have been able to get a Kold-Steril unit up and running. As a result of switching to RO, the algae has been slowly dying off. (I'm assuming it is, as it is turning to a light brown color instead of deep green, and it feels like I can pick it off with much more ease.) In getting the Kold-Steril up and running, I have been able to reduce phosphates from 1.0 mg/L down to 0.5 mg/L. My question is this: Is 0.5 mg/L low enough to keep the algae from roaring back once I switch from bottled RO to the Kold-Steril filtered water?
(I am avoiding using a home RO system because of the obscene waste water, and buying bottled RO water is quite expensive, and very labor intensive!)
<the problem with RO water and the Kold-Steril kit is TDS. They both have TDS post filtration and need to go thru a Mixed bed DI resin. If you add a DI unit onto your output hose of your Kold-steril unit you should have 0 TDS and no phosphates until the DI resin exhausts. Fortunately these are rechargeable.>
I am in the middle of working with the maker of Kold-Steril to see if I can get the phosphate lower, but I don't know if that will happen. Any advice you have is greatly appreciated. (Some have told me to add DI to the Kold-Steril, but others have said it won't help. Not sure who is correct.)
<The DI will help. I use 2 chambers in a row in my Filtration unit to get better results. Try adding some phosphate removing resins to the tank filtration also. Use the iron oxide forms red in color)>
Thank you for your help,
Regards,
<thank you, Rich aka Mr. Firemouth>
Kim

Re: Phosphate 8/9/07
Thank you for your help Rick! It is much appreciated.
<No Problem>
I have one question in response to your email below. I know every situation is different and it all depends upon each person's tap water, but about how many gallons of water will it take to exhaust DI resin?
<Every system will have different hardness that affects the life of the resin. I average about 500g per cartridge with my water. You will have to wait and see. Also, please buy a TDS meter. They are under $20 USD.>
I'm starting to wonder if I will spend more money in DI resin than I will in wasted water of an RO unit.
Do you have a preferred brand/company to buy from? I've seen some two stage DI systems that have refillable (as opposed to recharging) resin.
Sounds like you take the exhausted out, and put in the new resin. Is this acceptable? 
<do a Google search for DI resin refills, this will let you shop comparatively. Yes, just dump out the old and replace with the new and your good to go! I use the old resins and old carbon in my flower beds as fertilizer>
Does this resin have a much shorter life, or is it all the same - just different approaches?
<Purchase "Mixed Bed Resins" and yes they are all pretty much the same. The TDS meter will tell you when you have exhausted them. The color changing feature of the resin is not reliable for nutrient control. Once the TDS reading reaches 2ppm I change mine out.>
Thanks again.
Kind Regards,
Kim
<Hope I have helped, Rich aka Mr. Firemouth>

Re: Phosphate - for Rich aka Mr. Firemouth 8/10/07
Thank you so much Rich. This has been a very big help to me. I have researched DI, and have one last question.
Could you please compare/contrast for me the following?
1. A basic two stage DI with re-fillable mixed bed resin, such as http://www.thefilterguys.biz/di_systems.htm
2. A three stage DI with refillable cation and anion resins such as Kent Marine Deion 200-R
http://www.kentmarine.com/waterfilters/deionizers/deion-200r.htm
(I would not attempt to re-charge here......just replace)
Obviously there is a big price difference between the two, but if the Kent system will produce better quality water, or all else equal - have longer lasting resins, then it may be worth the upfront cost. I just don't know.
Any thoughts you have are GREATLY appreciated.
Thank you for your patience,
Regards,
Kim
<I am unsure about listing companies by name in the FAQ's, so BobF please moderate if necessary. I purchased my 7 stage RO/DI unit from the filter guys and they are a great bunch of guys. I reviewed the prices of each unit. The 3 stage unit would back up a KOLD-Steril unit well, but may be overkill. I own the Tsunami unit from Filterguys. A dependable product and will serve the same purpose. For resin replacement do a search for DI RESIN BULK, it will save some money annually. HTH, Rich aka Mr. Firemouth>

Re: Phosphate - for Rich aka Mr. Firemouth   8/25/07
Hi Rich,
I'm attaching our correspondence below since it has been a while. Since we have written, I decided to purchase a TDS meter before moving forward with buying a DI system. My tap water runs about 190 ppm TDS. Water coming out of the Kold Steril unit is not much different. (I don't know if that is normal or not.)
Since my TDS is high, I'm second guessing my thought of adding DI to the Kold Steril, and just going right to RO/DI instead. (Kold Steril has been nothing but trouble since day one for me.) It seems to me that with the high TDS, I will blow through DI resin very quickly. Is that a correct assumption? If so, it seems to me that the cost of wasted water of a RO/DI system will be comparable, if not cheaper than the cost of replacing DI resin so frequently.
Thoughts here? RO/DI is my best option - isn't it? (Even though it kills me that the $325 Kold Steril unit was one HUGE waste of money.)
Regards,
Kim
<Kim, sorry you have not experienced the outcome you were looking for. The Kold-Steril unit IMO is great for Freshwater fish rooms, but because of the issues TDS have in Saltwater reef tanks, I agree you have purchased the wrong unit. Please revisit my recommendations for "The Filter Guys" and with any RO/DI system if you tap water PSI is below 60 then buy the recommended booster pump. The boosted pressure will make the unit more efficient and produce more water a day which means less waste water. I also prefer Warner Marines phoSar for phosphate removal.>
<Thanks Rich aka Mr. Firemouth>

Enhancing Nutrient Export Processes  - 03/05/06
Hello,
<Hi there! Scott F. here today!>
I currently have a 90 gallon salt water tank. We have live sand and about 70lbs of live rock in our tank. We have an Eel, Trigger Fish, Grouper, Lionfish, and an Angel.
<Quite a crowd for a modest sized tank. I hope larger quarters are in the near future for this bunch?>
We are having a serious problem of phosphates.
<Ahh...that can be solved.>
We are getting a reading of 4-6 depending on the week.  We been doing a 20 gallon water change every week, we cut back on food and made sure it was all being eaten.  We feed them flake and frozen silversides. We have a skimmer along with bio balls.  I am trying to find out the cause of my phosphate problem. I been told many different things and I don't know where to start. I was told live rock can cause phosphates then someone told me that since it is cured it can not.  Somebody then told me it was my sand, but I have 4 inches of live sand.  I am getting frustrated because I can not figure out what my cause of phosphates is. Can you please help me? I would appreciate it.  Thanks
Karrie
<Well, Karrie- you are embracing some aspects of nutrient control/export, which will serve you well in reducing the phosphate, but you need to continue with some other steps. First, in my opinion, your aquarium is quite overcrowded. Even though you are maintaining a commendable water change schedule, the fact is that these fish are producing copious amounts of metabolic wastes that can severely compromise water quality. One of the first things you should do is to substantially reduce the bioload in this tank. Feeding of just about any kind of food will add some phosphates to the water. When you feed foods like Silversides, they are pretty "messy", and can release lots of processing and other "juices" into the water, which are very rich in phosphate. Pre-rinsing frozen foods before feeding, and avoiding simply dumping the foods in the tank can go a long way towards reducing phosphates. Live rock can have materials in it that become (or more correctly, accumulate) phosphate sources over time. However, live rock in and of itself is not your likely source. Do be careful to siphon visible detritus from the rock and other parts of the substrate. Finally, keep at it with the skimming and utilize chemical filtration media (activated carbon/PolyFilter) as a supplement to you other efforts. Reducing the population, continued water changes, aggressive protein skimming, and good feeding habits will all contribute to the defeat of this problem. Good luck! Regards, Scott F.>

Phosphate removal  - 03/11/2006
Hi Crew,
     I have a 180g FOWLR, the tank has been in existence for 5 years but I recently added 150 lbs of LR in Sept 2005.  I have a large emperor angel, majestic angel,
<I would stick with just one large pomacanthid in this size system... even it will outgrow a 180>
Foxface, Heniochus angel,
<Butterfly>
a damsel, and three medium size clowns.  About 20-30 snails, 4 skunk cleaner shrimp, 20-30 hermits and one neon goby.  I have various anemone mushrooms all doing great and dividing.  Lighting 320 w actinic white and 60 w actinic 12 hrs daily.  Two skimmers one EuroReef RS 135 and AquaC EV180.  Nitrates 25 ppm.
<Mmm, would be better to get/keep this lower>
  I have 2 wet dry filters and between the main pumps and the powerheads in the tank I move ~ 2200 gal/ hour.  ( For those wondering why 2 skimmers, these were the largest skimmers that I could fit under this tank, and the addition of the Euroreef to the existing Aqua C DID make a huge difference... Nitrates now stay at 25 PPM even with once monthly 25% water change )
<Please read on WWM re nitrate avoidance...>
I also run a 57w UV.
   When I initially added the rock I noted that the tank went thru a period of time where it was growing some Cyanobacteria.
<Very common>
Now that the coralline algae has gone a long way to establish itself the amount of Cyano is minimal.  I initially used PhosBan and brought my phosphates down to barely detectable.  Over the past month my third batch of PhosBan has exhausted and my phosphates are again on the rise.  Should I continue using the PhosBan ?
<One approach... where might you read re others?>
It would be no problem for me to do so, but is it really necessary, or better ?  The system is really humming at this point.
Thanks Jimmy
<Keep reading Jimmy. Bob Fenner>

Phosguard and SPS coral  - 5/18/2006
Hey everyone,
<Hello Marc>
Just a question about some information I received from a local LFS. The guy told me that the continued use of Phosguard (by SeaChem) will slow the rate of growth of my SPS corals. Have you heard this before or had any experience with it and have you found any other 'chemical' absorption media or the like that can be an issue with corals???
<Marc, the SeaChem Phosguard is aluminum based and extended use can release potentially toxic aluminum into your tank.  There are phosphate removing products that are not aluminum based and safe to use.  One such product is ROWA phos.>
Thanks
<You're welcome.  James (Salty Dog)>
Marc

Kalk skimmer injection / Phosphate removal? 1/18/07
Crew-
<Craig.>
Just doing some reading in the Marine Reef Aquarium Handbook
by Dr. Robert J. Goldstein <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/002-2180612-6836823?%5Fencoding=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books&field-author=Dr.%20Robert%20J.%20Goldstein> : http://www.amazon.com/Marine-Aquarium-Handbook-Complete-Owners/dp/0812095987. Excellent book. The author suggests running the Kalk drip line directly into the skimmer injector, as this process precipitates phosphate in the skimmer effluent.
<This is talked about in circles every now and then, and usually results in someone reminding the others that there is no direct removal of phosphates. Phosphates themselves aren't surfactants. They are the eventual result of dissolved organic compounds that eventually form the in-organic phosphates that algae and other forms of life utilize.>
The author claims this method is several hundred times more effective than other methods.
<Have not read this one... Maybe Bob would like to add a double-bracket to this one... but I think the normal dosing of Kalk is still very beneficial to skimmate production.> <<Agreed on this last. RMF. I don't think the mixing here can/will result in the stated "hundred times" improvement in PO4 precipitation... but would experiment re>>
This book has largely been mostly dead-on in its material and independently verified by a triangulation of numerous other sources. Can we verify this tactic?
<We? ...or you? I think that would be a great experiment for you. I am currently involved in the development stages of a very exciting project with biotelemetry supplementation with Rick Oellers that takes most of my critical thinking time. I recommend it!>
Additionally, can anyone describe the precipitated phosphate? Running the drip line into my skimmer does produce considerably more skimmate, but the effluent appears white and I am wondering if I am just skimming particulate calcium carbonate suspended in the solution. Need/want pictures of what I am talking about?
<No need, I know exactly what you are referring to. Am not sure about actual composition of skimmate with this characteristic, but if you do some searching on "saponification" you will better understand how Kalk and skimmers work together. HTH
-Graham T.>
cj