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FAQs on Marine Water Quality involving Phosphates, Control
Related Articles:
Phosphates in Marine Aquarium Systems by Marco Lichtenberger,
Phosphates in Carbon; An analysis of the phosphate content of
activated Carbon by Steven Pro,
Ammonia, Nitrates,
Nitrites, Silicates, Marine
Chemical Filtrants,
Related FAQs: Phosphates 1,
Phosphates 2, & FAQs on Phosphate:
Importance, Science,
Measure,
Sources,
Chemical Filtrants,
Troubleshooting/Fixing, &
Nitrates, Nitrites, Ammonia,
Silicates, Avoiding Algae
Problems in Marine System,
Nutrient Control and Export,
Algae Control,
Marine Maintenance, Alkalinity, Chemical
Filtrants, |
Mmm, prevention... biological uptake/harvest (macro-algae, maybe
micro-, photosynthetic and chemoautotrophic life/metabolism...
Dilution through water change... and Chemical means...
precipitation, insolubilization, ad- absorption... |
Remove phosphate with high
aeration? 05/22/09
Hi
<Hello Hengky.>
In many literature, phosphate can be remove by some ways : such as,
growing macro algae, using very good skimmer, using phosphate remover
media. But I ever read in some literature a from marine aquarium book,
that phosphate also remove by high aeration. Question is, why in WWM it
was never discuss (remove phosphate by high aeration)?
<Because it won’t work in a usual marine aquarium. If aeration is strong
enough to raise the pH locally (improbable in a reef aquarium with a pH
of 7.8-8.4 at atmospheric pressure and usual temperatures) you might
precipitate very little Calcium phosphate and therefore reduce phosphates
(and Calcium). Similarly, Calcium phosphate is precipitated by addition
of Kalkwasser.>
If this method can replace the high cost of using phosphate remover,
then how high aeration that I shall run in my sump. If this method is
exactly unproven, then what is the cheapest and the best method for
phosphate remover in long run because I don't want to invest in high
cost phosphate media remover such as Rowaphos, except the skimmer.
<The cheapest solution is to have a well balanced system setup without
phosphate containing materials, where input equals output, and therefore
no phosphates accumulate. If growth of biomass like algae, corals plus
removal by water changes equals input by feeding, you won’t need
removers.>
Thank you very much. PS : assuming I do a RO/DI for replace water
evaporation.
Regards, Hengky
<Also have a look here for phosphate sources and removal:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_5/volume_5_3/phosphates.htm
Cheers, Marco.>
Aquafuge vs. Rowaphos 12/7/08
Hey Guys,
<Gals too,
hello there Steve.>
I have been reading your site for information
about Refugiums. I am going to add one on my 55 gallon reef.
<Good
move that you will not regret.>
Currently I am using an Aqua C Remora
Pro and 90 lbs of live rock with a lot of water movement for my
filtration. I
also have an Aquaclear 70 HOT filter running with some
Rowaphos and filter floss to keep the phosphates down. After reading
your site I am left with two questions.
1. If I add an Aquafuge
refugium would you recommend removing the Aquaclear filter?
<I would,
it is of little use with your LR, skimmer and refugium. It just becomes
a maintenance burden at this point.>
I would no longer need to
purchase that expensive Rowaphos. At the same time I need to get the
phosphates a bit lower than they are now so I want to make sure that I
am actually making headway. I don't want to buy an
expensive toy if
it isn't going to be any better than the Rowaphos.
<These media can
actually strip the water of too much phosphate. Do test your levels, but
if water changes and the refugium do not keep them in check then it is
time to look at the source/problem rather than treating the symptom.>
2. Would any of the 3 Aquafuge models be large enough to produce enough
food for a Mandarin Goby?
<Not with a 55 gallon display.>
I know
that refugiums can produce enough food for theses fish but even the
largest Aquafuge model is pretty small.
<This is one of those cases
where many claim it works, with having the fish doing "fine" for 6
months...the same fish in another 6 months will be dead and gone.>
Steve
<Scott V.>
Phosphate control – 10/10/08
Hi
Bob,
<David>
I am moving towards a refugium and or deep sand bed
for the grow out system in the clown house. I have a few questions
though. I have 2 items that I need to address in regards to filtration
for the grow out system. I am wanting to get these issues resolved
before I add a whole bunch more fish to this system which is going to
happen in the near term as I have 5 different clowns that are now
spawning (well 4 as the ocellaris are on vacation) . I am still having
an algae problem that needs to be addressed also.
<Mmm, okay>
The
first is nitrates. I believe that in our conversation while you were
here that you had mentioned that a deep sand bed may be a good addition
for the removal of nitrates versus a commercial denitrator.
<Yes...
much more stable, safe... and good for much more than simply natural
denitration>
I have a 29g, 55g, or possibly a 90g tank that I could
use for a deep sand bed. If I remember correctly you had mentioned
running all system flow through the deep sand bed and then back to the
main sump where the skimmer, heater, uv sterilizer, etc. . was housed.
I'll try to bullet the questions to make it easier to answer.
If I
use the 55g tank then we are talking about a few hundred pounds of sand
to make a 9-10" DSB (I thought you had said 9"-10")?
<Yes>
Do I
need you use varying sizes of sands at different depths?
<Mmm, no...
better IMO to just use one grade... of very/quite fine oolithic sand>
Would pumping a certain amount of water from the sump through the DSB
and back to the sump work as well if I didn't want to change the drain
and supply plumbing right away?
<Mmm, I would NOT do this pumping
back and forth... I would ONLY rely on gravity in going/coming one way
or t'other>
The second issue I think may be a cause of the excess
algae along with the nitrates is Phosphates. I do approx. 25-30% water
changes in the grow out system twice a month and the phosphates are
still vary high (2-3ppm).
Is there a good way to deal with
phosphates naturally without a bunch of chemicals?
<Yes... the
purposeful culture of organisms (likely macro algae) that will readily
absorb these (and much more again)... Gracilaria, Chaetomorpha are two
present fave genera here>
Would adding macro algae's to the deep sand
bed we worth the effort. Ex Chaeto, Caulerpa or others and making this
more of a refugium/DSB?
<I would NOT use the genus Caulerpa... the
other algae, some nominal lighting... perhaps dividing the area into two
sections, lighting one side then the other alternating... such that some
light is on all the time... would be my choice>
Obviously as this
system grows it will consume more time and the more simplified I can
make the maintenance the better. It does get old continuously scraping
the glass... Am I heading in the right direction?
<IMO/E yes... the
use of aluminum, iron-based contactors, resin-type filtrants is
expensive, hard to regulate, and really unnecessary. Go the biological
route here David>
Other than those two issues, I think that adding
Ozone and the new larger skimmer is helping. Just want to keep moving
forward.
<I understand>
I have the picture to send to you for you
autograph. Should I send it to your house in San Diego? I have the
address if that is the best place to send it.
<Yes, here in SD: 8586
Menkar Rd., San Diego, CA 92126>
Thanks,
Dave Durr
<Be
chatting, Bob Fenner>
Mud bed vs. DSB vs. bare bottom 8/31/08
Refugium
Confusion...
Dear crew,
<Scott F. your Crew member tonight!>
I
am in the process of changing things around for my 210 g FOWLR (putting
a larger skimmer in a sump, replacing my 2 Remora hang-ons).
My
specific question is regarding my refugium. It's been in use for 3 years
with a mud bed. In that time I've had a constant battle with hair algae
in my main tank, can't get coralline to take over and I swear my tank
always has a slight green tint. However, my fish have never been
healthier. In the past I've always had problems with lateral line
disease on certain fish. I have a blue hippo tang that I've had for the
last 3 years who is beautiful without a mark on him.
<Interesting...Seems a lot like what I've heard in the ads for Eco
System Miracle Mud!>
I have a suspicion that the mud has been a
contributing factor to the phosphates and hydrogen sulfide.
<A
possibility, although phosphates often come from food and source water,
and can be reduced, or even eliminated via use of water pre-treatment
(RO/DI) and good protein skimming. On the other hand, hydrogen sulfide
could be coming from a disturbance in the deep mud bed>
What are most
aquarists doing now for their refugiums? Using mud, sand or nothing at
all?
<Wow...hard to say. So many different ways to go. It depends on
what you're trying to accomplish. If your goal is to grow macroalgae,
such as Chaetomorpha, you may be able to get away without any substrate
at all. On the other hand, many hobbyists are taking advantage of their
refugiums to run a supplemental deep sand bed. I've even seen hobbyists
use their refugia for seagrasses-an interesting and attractive concept.>
Today I'm emptying my refugium to put in my new sump and refugium
set-up. I don't know whether to keep the mud or not. I have
Chaetomorpha, Caulerpa, and 2 mangroves growing as well as some live
rock and assorted other
inhabitants. Thanks for your input.
Jeff
<I'd try some of the other controls for phosphate mentioned above first,
before tearing out your mud bed. I would, however, properly dispose of
the Caulerpa, as it has some real drawbacks. You'll find that the
Chaetomorpha is a far better nutrient export vehicle than Caulerpa, and
has none of the drawbacks (ie; potential to release gametes, possible
toxicity to corals, and super aggressive growth). If harvested
regularly, you can achieve tremendous nutrient export with Chaetomorpha.
In the end, configure your refugium to do what you want it to do (ie;
provide nutrient export, create a safe haven for larval fishes,
supplemental food production, etc.) and you will be happier overall with
your results. Hope this helps! Regards, Scott F.>
Kalk, Skimmer and Phosphate Precipitation Questions – 08/27/08
Hi Gang,
<<Hello X>>
First many thanks for the incredible resource
you guys provide for us!
<<On behalf of the Crew…you’re quite
welcome>>
I have an 850 gallon tank, 240 gallon sump and a 150 gallon
refugium.
<<Very nice… And I with my 375g tank, 75g sump, and 55g
refugium am quite envious. Though I must confess obtaining a larger
system would entail having to give up a spouse. Okay, sorry…back with
the program>>
I have been reef keeping for over 10 years and the more
I learn the less I realize I know.
<<I do understand… I’ve been in
the hobby for more than three decades, with the last two being devoted
entirely to reef keeping. And for me, I don’t think I “really” started
to learn until I started trying to help others>>
I battle with
phosphates in the aquarium from the fish load and feedings (Salifert
tests between 0.1 and 0.5).
<<I see… I’m a BIG believer in feeding
your fishes, and even “the tank” for that matter…but water quality must
be maintained/not suffer. If ancillary filtration is sufficient then
perhaps your fish load is just too much? As for the Phosphate readings,
how does your tank respond re? Phosphate is “required” by all living
organisms; and though these readings are higher than generally
recommended for a reef system…how is the tank taking them? Does it
suffer nuisance algae outbreaks? …loss of coral growth? …loss of color?
If not, then perhaps you needn’t worry re the Phosphate level. I’m not
saying that a reading of 0.5ppm shouldn’t be deleterious; but to allow
for possible inaccuracies in the test kit or even your testing methods,
let the condition of the tank rule your actions>>
I have been toying
with the idea of raising my pH to get phosphates to precipitate to some
degree to help "bridge" the phosphate gap between water changes.
<<Okay… There are some other avenues to explore as well like macroalgae
in the refugium and chemical Phosphate remover such as one of the
iron-based products or Poly-Filter pads…though the chemical removal
option would be quite expensive in a system as large as yours>>
The
idea I have been thinking is this: I will drip in Kalk water with a
vacuum pump (Tom brand) that is controlled by my Neptune controller at a
set point of 8.5 to "hold" the pH high enough to precipitate the
phosphates.
<<Okay…and once reached, this should immediately
precipitate Phosphate. Though do be aware that suddenly reducing the
Phosphate level of the “system” to zero may also harm your corals. In
fact, I such reductions of phosphate may do “instant and permanent
harm.” This may be held up by the anecdotal accounts of coral bleaching
and/or necrotic events by those using/overusing the very efficient
iron-based Phosphate removers…which sometimes continue even after
removal of the media from the system>>
Is this safe to hold pH that
high on a "permanent" basis?
<<I have heard of it being done for
several weeks at a time to combat certain stubborn nuisance algae
strains (e.g. - Bryopsis), but as a “permanent” solution it may not be
desirable, nor do I think it is necessary. Merely adding the Kalkwasser
to help maintain a lower pH and/or facilitate Calcium replenishment will
precipitate Phosphate from exposure to the extremely high pH of the
solution in the area of introduction>>
Is 8.5 high enough?
<<Should be>>
Is it best to send the Kalk down the drain that feeds
my skimmer directly for reasons of saponification?
<<You could…though
saponification will still occur if you don’t, in the area of
introduction. But I would not/choose not to do this for reasons of
reducing the Calcium deposits on the moving/friction heated parts of the
skimmer pump(s). It’s up to you, but I let Kalkwasser enter my system at
my refugium where is then gravity feeds (a bit more “diluted”) to the
pump chamber of my sump>>
This one (of (3) 1.5 drains) drain only
goes from the overflow box to the skimmer (A-300 H&S) then into the
sump, or is dripping it anywhere in the sump just as good?
<<Anywhere
in the system will suffice… As stated, I prefer to introduce the mixture
to my “pump less” refugium>>
Is this a decent/good method for helping
keep the phosphates under control long term?
<<I think that depends
on who you ask. Some may tout this as a big advantage/argument for
dosing Kalkwasser…but I have come to believe it is of limited utility re
Phosphate control. The biggest problem is this method does not “remove”
Phosphate from the system and the “stored” Phosphate can be reintroduced
in a soluble form by changes in water chemistry and maybe even by some
bacterial/biological activities. Better by far to remove excess
Phosphate when possible. The “safest” method is likely export via
harvesting macroalgae from the refugium, though this is also probably
the slowest means requiring a large amount of material to be removed to
have an impact if levels are very high. If levels are such as to be
dangerous/deleterious to the system then “judicious” use of a chemical
media, along with careful monitoring/testing may be best>>
I have
searched and have not found a whole lot of info that details this idea.
If I use the Kalk to keep pH up will it become too much calcium for the
tank (I will obviously test to see long term results)?
<<That depends
on the Calcium demands of your system…but will be evidenced by your
testing>>
I have ran a "trial" run doing what I stated above and it
seems that I need to drip in about 3-5 gallons of Kalk a day to keep the
pH this high. Is that too much daily?
<<That remains to be seen as
well. It really only becomes “too much” when it elevates pH to dangerous
levels, elevates Calcium to exceedingly high levels presenting a danger
of spontaneous precipitation of bio-mineral and alkaline content, strips
Magnesium from the system (you will need to monitor/supplement as
necessary), or exceeds the evaporation rate of the system causing
dilution and lowering of Salinity>>
I have a MTC ProCal reactor that
for the most part keeps up with calcium/Alk demands although the more
stonies I add the more it requires from the reactor to the point that I
now need to start dosing some extra calcium (thus the need for the
Kalk).
<<Ah…okay>>
So I am hoping to kill 2 birds with one stone
here. Please if you have any links that can provide any additional info
would be great.
Thanks!
<<If you haven’t already, do have a look
here and among the associated links in blue at the top of the page:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/po4faqs.htm .
Regards, EricR>>
Vodka Dosing – 08/19/08
Hi –
<<Hello>>
I've searched your
site and a few others and read some interesting articles about the
concept of vodka or ethanol dosing to reduce/eliminate Nitrate and
Phosphate in reef tanks.
<<Indeed>>
Most of it was fairly dated
however and I was curious as to whether the idea still has currency.
<<Possibly, with caveats… Firstly, this methodology is not without
danger...the right combination of circumstances can be catastrophic (I
speak from experience). Secondly, this method only treats the symptom
and is not a cure-all for what ails your system re buildup of
nitrogenous/organic compounds. Are you aware of how this method works?
The premise is the addition of a concentrated form of carbon
(Vodka/ethanol) provides a food source that promotes the artificially
high production of certain strains of bacteria for a limited period
(until the carbon/food source is depleted). Some of these strains of
bacteria have the ability to “double their populations every
20-minutes.” As this mostly aerobic bacteria population grows, along
with the carbon source, excess nutrients are also oxidized. As implied
by the name, this process is driven by oxygen consumed by the bacteria
to drive their metabolisms…and therein lays the greatest danger in my
opinion. Coupled with the wrong conditions (already low oxygen levels
from overstocking, inadequate water movement, etc.) or unfortunate
circumstance (loss of power/sump pump circulation) the artificially high
bacteria population can rapidly consume all the available oxygen
creating a severe anoxic condition>>
I'm home in the middle of a
vacation for a day or two and just tested my nitrates which are
disturbingly high as I had to shut down my skimmer while I've been gone.
<<Hmm…don’t know what “disturbingly high” is>>
I was thinking that it
might be a way to bring them down quickly and give me time to deal with
it when I return home in a week or so.
<<As stated, this method only
treats the symptom…and then only briefly. One or two “doses” before
leaving the tank for a week or so will have little overall impact. I
think your system would be much better served here by a canister filter
filled with cut-up Poly-Filter>>
So my questions are: 1) does it
work?
<<It can, yes… I have found it especially good for removal of
Cyanobacteria…after determining and attending to the initial
cause/source of the outbreak>>
2) Should I do it in this
circumstance?
<<I would not…for reasons already mentioned>>
3) Can
you suggest a dosage;
<<Would rather not as I wish to discourage your
use of this methodology>>
and 4) are there any risks since I won't be
around to monitor anything but the short term effects?
<<I strongly
urge you to find/use a different method to bring down your Nitrates in
this situation. And the obvious…keeping the skimmer running and having
someone check on/feed your system and empty the skimmer while you are
gone. A week is too long to leave your reef system unattended, in my
opinion>>
Thank you for taking the time to share your most valuable
experience and expertise.
Eric
<<A pleasure to assist. Eric
Russell>>
Ps disturbingly high is around 60-70 ppm
<<Ah…yes
indeed. I would confirm the validity of this test (new/different test
kit) and if accurate, determine the reason/fix what is causing such a
high reading…skimmer on or not. Regards, EricR>>
Bringing Down The Phosphate…Understanding Elevated-pH Phosphate Removal
Mechanisms – 03/13/08
Hello, Crew.
<<Greetings, Todd>>
While trying to run down the source of my elevated phosphate in my 225
gal fish and invertebrate system, I would like to bring it down fairly
quickly (a band-aid only, I know).
<<Indeed>>
I have read about
the method of raising the pH overnight to precipitate the phosphate in
the Wet Web Media pages, but I'm too big of a weenie to do this.
<<I
see… But Todd, you don’t want to raise the pH for the entire display to
the level required to “precipitate” Phosphate, as that would certainly
be deadly to the system. Instead, you would “slowly” elevate and
maintain the pH at 8.4 to maximize the “binding” of Phosphate to the
Aragonite surfaces in your tank. This can be done with Kalkwasser
additions, which will also “precipitate” Phosphate from the water column
in the area of locally high pH where the Kalkwasser/ Limewater enter the
system. The “binding” of Phosphate to the Aragonite surfaces is arguably
problematic as there is some speculation that if the Calcite crystals
stop growing there is potential for releasing Phosphate. The
“precipitation” of Phosphate in the water column may be less problematic
since the Phosphate might become coated with organics and be removed by
the skimmer. The short-term advantages here for Phosphate removal seem
obvious…the long-term effects could be debated, in my opinion. “Complete
removal” of Phosphate from the system is likely the best answer…as in
the use of macroalgae in a refugium (periodically “pruned” and
discarded), the use of reactor with an iron-based binding agent, etc.>>
Can't such a rapid pH change hurt my fish or inverts?
<<Rapid changes
to “anything” in your system can be deleterious, yes>>
I also ran
across a Korallin product (P04 minus) which apparently complexes the
phosphate to something that is easily skimmed (I have a pretty
aggressive skimmer running), thereby "exporting" the phosphate through
the skimmer. Any experience with this method?
<<Not personally, but I
do have a friend here in town who owns an LFS/Service business who
swears by this stuff. But then, he swears by “everything” he sells
[grin]>>
I worry about what desirable ions it might bind and remove
via my skimmer.
<<Indeed…and maybe not so much removal by the skimmer
as just outright precipitation from the water column. The literature
seems to indicate the product may cloud the water…and to keep an eye on
KH to prevent a dangerous drop… Warning flags? Sure… But then this
product is likely no more dangerous to your system than Kalkwasser. Give
it a try if you wish. But just like anything else, use good
sense/judgment…and proceed with caution>>
Thanks in advance for your
help and thanks for the great web page!
Todd in Montana
<<Happy to
share. EricR in SC>>
PO4 Trouble... soln.s 2/5/08
Hello Crew!
<Patrick>
I've recently switched over from a 125 gallon reef setup to
a 200 gallon setup successfully with no losses under your guidance. The
old setup had a huge PO4 problem due to the flake food I used to feed
the fish. This had caused the rocks to acquire a green tint to them.
During the switch, I transferred the rock to a huge bin which I kept all
the premixed saltwater in for the new tank. There was no lights over
this setup, only a few powerheads and a heater.
<... for?>
Once
the new tank was up and running, I noticed the rocks had gained their
white, tan coloration back. I figured the 5 day dark period had gotten
rid of the algae growth.
<Mmm>
I had failed to acknowledge the PO4
that remained in the new water itself.
<Yes>
The new tank has
been setup for about 4 weeks now, and I am having trouble with a brown
and green algae film coating the glass, causing me to have to clean it
every other day compared. From talking to other reefers, most people are
reporting only having to do this every week or so.
The green
coloration is starting to come back on the rock work and really
beginning to take a toll on the tank aesthetically. I've tried testing
the water for phosphates, but the API test kit I have leaves results
inconclusive due to the fact that it is VERY hard to read. The coral
have shown minimal growth results, and I'm thinking it may be due to the
high phosphates.
<And do know that phosphate in a few chemical
formats... may not register... as being readily "bound up", being used
here...>
All food entering the tank (frozen mysis, silversides, and
DT's oyster eggs) is thoroughly defrosted and rinsed with RO/DI water
before entering the tank.
<Good>
DT's phyto is also fed about once
a week. I'm currently running GFO
<For the unfamiliar with this
acronym: granular ferric oxide (GFO) or alumina oxide (AO) are typically
employed in fluidized media reactors...>
and no carbon. I have a
refugium full of Chaeto and all water changes and top off is done with
RO/DI water. Water parameters are currently:
Ammonia and Nitrite 0
Nitrate < 5
pH 8.2 - 8.4
Ca 420
Alk 11 dKH
Mg 1150
Phosphate ?
Will running the GFO and changing it out every 4 days or
so make a dent in the algae development?
Should I employ more
herbivores to combat the development of the algae?
What would be a
good way of ridding this algae from the rocks besides light deprivation
(there are already corals in the tank)
<... Competition, anaerobic
binding, export through macro-algal culture...>
Thanks again for the
help. Your website and advise has always proven helpful.
BTW if you
get a chance can you tell Mr. Fenner that I had just picked up his book
and it has made a huge difference in my husbandry... Thanks again.
Patrick in Cali
<Mmm, please read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/nutrientcontrol.htm
and the linked files at
top... am wanting to hypnotize/sensitize you here... to the magic and
mystery of sump/refugiums... Bob Fenner>
Phosphate – 08/08/07
Good morning,
As always, thank you for your wonderful website and for
sharing your amazing knowledge with us! I just have a quick question.
<Thanks, I will try to help>
I have been battling hair algae, and
came to the conclusion that phosphate in my tap water is fueling the
beast. As a result, I have been using bottled RO water until I have been
able to get a Kold-Steril unit up and running. As a result of switching
to RO, the algae has been slowly dying off. (I'm assuming it is, as it
is turning to a light brown color instead of deep green, and it feels
like I can pick it off with much more ease.) In getting the Kold-Steril
up and running, I have been able to reduce phosphates from 1.0 mg/L down
to 0.5 mg/L. My question is this: Is 0.5 mg/L low enough to keep the
algae from roaring back once I switch from bottled RO to the Kold-Steril
filtered water?
(I am avoiding using a home RO system because of the
obscene waste water, and buying bottled RO water is quite expensive, and
very labor intensive!)
<the problem with RO water and the
Kold-Steril kit is TDS. They both have TDS post filtration and need to
go thru a Mixed bed DI resin. If you add a DI unit onto your output hose
of your Kold-steril unit you should have 0 TDS and no phosphates until
the DI resin exhausts. Fortunately these are rechargeable.>
I am in
the middle of working with the maker of Kold-Steril to see if I can get
the phosphate lower, but I don't know if that will happen. Any advice
you have is greatly appreciated. (Some have told me to add DI to the
Kold-Steril, but others have said it won't help. Not sure who is
correct.)
<The DI will help. I use 2 chambers in a row in my
Filtration unit to get better results. Try adding some phosphate
removing resins to the tank filtration also. Use the iron oxide forms
red in color)>
Thank you for your help,
Regards,
<thank you,
Rich aka Mr. Firemouth>
Kim
Re: Phosphate 8/9/07
Thank you for your help Rick! It is much
appreciated.
<No Problem>
I have one question in response to
your email below. I know every situation is different and it all depends
upon each person's tap water, but about how many gallons of water will
it take to exhaust DI resin?
<Every system will have different
hardness that affects the life of the resin. I average about 500g per
cartridge with my water. You will have to wait and see. Also, please buy
a TDS meter. They are under $20 USD.>
I'm starting to wonder if I
will spend more money in DI resin than I will in wasted water of an RO
unit.
Do you have a preferred brand/company to buy from? I've seen
some two stage DI systems that have refillable (as opposed to
recharging) resin.
Sounds like you take the exhausted out, and put in
the new resin. Is this acceptable?
<do a Google search for DI
resin refills, this will let you shop comparatively. Yes, just dump out
the old and replace with the new and your good to go! I use the old
resins and old carbon in my flower beds as fertilizer>
Does this
resin have a much shorter life, or is it all the same - just different
approaches?
<Purchase "Mixed Bed Resins" and yes they are all pretty
much the same. The TDS meter will tell you when you have exhausted them.
The color changing feature of the resin is not reliable for nutrient
control. Once the TDS reading reaches 2ppm I change mine out.>
Thanks
again.
Kind Regards,
Kim
<Hope I have helped, Rich aka Mr.
Firemouth>
Re: Phosphate - for Rich aka Mr. Firemouth 8/10/07
Thank you so
much Rich. This has been a very big help to me. I have researched DI,
and have one last question.
Could you please compare/contrast for me
the following?
1. A basic two stage DI with re-fillable mixed bed
resin, such as http://www.thefilterguys.biz/di_systems.htm
2. A three
stage DI with refillable cation and anion resins such as Kent Marine
Deion 200-R
http://www.kentmarine.com/waterfilters/deionizers/deion-200r.htm
(I
would not attempt to re-charge here......just replace)
Obviously
there is a big price difference between the two, but if the Kent system
will produce better quality water, or all else equal - have longer
lasting resins, then it may be worth the upfront cost. I just don't
know.
Any thoughts you have are GREATLY appreciated.
Thank you
for your patience,
Regards,
Kim
<I am unsure about listing
companies by name in the FAQ's, so BobF please moderate if necessary. I
purchased my 7 stage RO/DI unit from the filter guys and they are a
great bunch of guys. I reviewed the prices of each unit. The 3 stage
unit would back up a KOLD-Steril unit well, but may be overkill. I own
the Tsunami unit from Filterguys. A dependable product and will serve
the same purpose. For resin replacement do a search for DI RESIN BULK,
it will save some money annually. HTH, Rich aka Mr. Firemouth>
Re: Phosphate - for Rich aka Mr. Firemouth 8/25/07
Hi
Rich,
I'm attaching our correspondence below since it has been a
while. Since we have written, I decided to purchase a TDS meter before
moving forward with buying a DI system. My tap water runs about 190 ppm
TDS. Water coming out of the Kold Steril unit is not much different. (I
don't know if that is normal or not.)
Since my TDS is high, I'm
second guessing my thought of adding DI to the Kold Steril, and just
going right to RO/DI instead. (Kold Steril has been nothing but trouble
since day one for me.) It seems to me that with the high TDS, I will
blow through DI resin very quickly. Is that a correct assumption? If so,
it seems to me that the cost of wasted water of a RO/DI system will be
comparable, if not cheaper than the cost of replacing DI resin so
frequently.
Thoughts here? RO/DI is my best option - isn't it? (Even
though it kills me that the $325 Kold Steril unit was one HUGE waste of
money.)
Regards,
Kim
<Kim, sorry you have not experienced the
outcome you were looking for. The Kold-Steril unit IMO is great for
Freshwater fish rooms, but because of the issues TDS have in Saltwater
reef tanks, I agree you have purchased the wrong unit. Please revisit my
recommendations for "The Filter Guys" and with any RO/DI system if you
tap water PSI is below 60 then buy the recommended booster pump. The
boosted pressure will make the unit more efficient and produce more
water a day which means less waste water. I also prefer Warner Marines
phoSar for phosphate removal.>
<Thanks Rich aka Mr. Firemouth>
Enhancing Nutrient Export Processes - 03/05/06
Hello,
<Hi there! Scott F. here today!>
I currently have a 90 gallon salt
water tank. We have live sand and about 70lbs of live rock in our tank.
We have an Eel, Trigger Fish, Grouper, Lionfish, and an Angel.
<Quite a crowd for a modest sized tank. I hope larger quarters are in
the near future for this bunch?>
We are having a serious problem of
phosphates.
<Ahh...that can be solved.>
We are getting a reading
of 4-6 depending on the week. We been doing a 20 gallon water change
every week, we cut back on food and made sure it was all being
eaten. We feed them flake and frozen silversides. We have a skimmer
along with bio balls. I am trying to find out the cause of my phosphate
problem. I been told many different things and I don't know where to
start. I was told live rock can cause phosphates then someone told me
that since it is cured it can not. Somebody then told me it was my
sand, but I have 4 inches of live sand. I am getting frustrated because
I can not figure out what my cause of phosphates is. Can you please help
me? I would appreciate it. Thanks
Karrie
<Well, Karrie- you are
embracing some aspects of nutrient control/export, which will serve you
well in reducing the phosphate, but you need to continue with some other
steps. First, in my opinion, your aquarium is quite overcrowded. Even
though you are maintaining a commendable water change schedule, the fact
is that these fish are producing copious amounts of metabolic wastes
that can severely compromise water quality. One of the first things you
should do is to substantially reduce the bioload in this tank. Feeding
of just about any kind of food will add some phosphates to the water.
When you feed foods like Silversides, they are pretty "messy", and can
release lots of processing and other "juices" into the water, which are
very rich in phosphate. Pre-rinsing frozen foods before feeding, and
avoiding simply dumping the foods in the tank can go a long way towards
reducing phosphates. Live rock can have materials in it that become (or
more correctly, accumulate) phosphate sources over time. However, live
rock in and of itself is not your likely source. Do be careful to siphon
visible detritus from the rock and other parts of the substrate.
Finally, keep at it with the skimming and utilize chemical filtration
media (activated carbon/PolyFilter) as a supplement to you other
efforts. Reducing the population, continued water changes, aggressive
protein skimming, and good feeding habits will all contribute to the
defeat of this problem. Good luck! Regards, Scott F.> Phosphate
removal - 03/11/2006
Hi Crew,
I have a 180g
FOWLR, the tank has been in existence for 5 years but I recently added
150 lbs of LR in Sept 2005. I have a large emperor angel, majestic
angel,
<I would stick with just one large pomacanthid in this size
system... even it will outgrow a 180>
Foxface, Heniochus angel,
<Butterfly>
a damsel, and three medium size clowns. About 20-30
snails, 4 skunk cleaner shrimp, 20-30 hermits and one neon goby. I have
various anemone mushrooms all doing great and dividing. Lighting 320 w
actinic white and 60 w actinic 12 hrs daily. Two skimmers one EuroReef
RS 135 and AquaC EV180. Nitrates 25 ppm.
<Mmm, would be better to
get/keep this lower>
I have 2 wet dry filters and between the main
pumps and the powerheads in the tank I move ~ 2200 gal/ hour. ( For
those wondering why 2 skimmers, these were the largest skimmers that I
could fit under this tank, and the addition of the Euroreef to the
existing Aqua C DID make a huge difference... Nitrates now stay at 25
PPM even with once monthly 25% water change )
<Please read on WWM re
nitrate avoidance...>
I also run a 57w UV.
When I initially
added the rock I noted that the tank went thru a period of time where it
was growing some Cyanobacteria.
<Very common>
Now that the
coralline algae has gone a long way to establish itself the amount of
Cyano is minimal. I initially used PhosBan and brought my phosphates
down to barely detectable. Over the past month my third batch of
PhosBan has exhausted and my phosphates are again on the rise. Should I
continue using the PhosBan ?
<One approach... where might you read
re others?>
It would be no problem for me to do so, but is it really
necessary, or better ? The system is really humming at this point.
Thanks Jimmy
<Keep reading Jimmy. Bob Fenner> Phosguard and
SPS coral - 5/18/2006
Hey everyone,
<Hello
Marc>
Just a question about some information I received from a local
LFS. The guy told me that the continued use of Phosguard (by SeaChem)
will slow the rate of growth of my SPS corals. Have you heard this
before or had any experience with it and have you found any other
'chemical' absorption media or the like that can be an issue with
corals???
<Marc, the SeaChem Phosguard is aluminum based and
extended use can release potentially toxic aluminum into your
tank. There are phosphate removing products that are not aluminum based
and safe to use. One such product is ROWA phos.>
Thanks
<You're
welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Marc
Kalk skimmer injection
/ Phosphate removal? 1/18/07
Crew-
<Craig.>
Just doing
some reading in the Marine Reef Aquarium Handbook
by Dr. Robert J.
Goldstein <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/002-2180612-6836823?%5Fencoding=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books&field-author=Dr.%20Robert%20J.%20Goldstein>
:
http://www.amazon.com/Marine-Aquarium-Handbook-Complete-Owners/dp/0812095987.
Excellent book. The author suggests running the Kalk drip line directly
into the skimmer injector, as this process precipitates phosphate in the
skimmer effluent.
<This is talked about in circles every now and
then, and usually results in someone reminding the others that there is
no direct removal of phosphates. Phosphates themselves aren't
surfactants. They are the eventual result of dissolved organic compounds
that eventually form the in-organic phosphates that algae and other
forms of life utilize.>
The author claims this method is several
hundred times more effective than other methods.
<Have not read this
one... Maybe Bob would like to add a double-bracket to this one... but I
think the normal dosing of Kalk is still very beneficial to skimmate
production.> <<Agreed on this last. RMF. I don't think the mixing here
can/will result in the stated "hundred times" improvement in PO4
precipitation... but would experiment re>>
This book has largely been
mostly dead-on in its material and independently verified by a
triangulation of numerous other sources. Can we verify this tactic?
<We? ...or you? I think that would be a great experiment for you. I am
currently involved in the development stages of a very exciting project
with biotelemetry supplementation with Rick Oellers that takes most of
my critical thinking time. I recommend it!>
Additionally, can anyone
describe the precipitated phosphate? Running the drip line into my
skimmer does produce considerably more skimmate, but the effluent
appears white and I am wondering if I am just skimming particulate
calcium carbonate suspended in the solution. Need/want pictures of what
I am talking about?
<No need, I know exactly what you are referring
to. Am not sure about actual composition of skimmate with this
characteristic, but if you do some searching on "saponification" you
will better understand how Kalk and skimmers work together. HTH
-Graham T.>
cj Phosphate Levels
Hi - I was
wondering if you could briefly explain phosphate levels and how to
control them.
<You would be better of reading our coverage on
www.WetWebMedia.com. This is a rather large question that cannot be
answer briefly in an email. The simple answer is to control their input
into the tank, i.e.. use purified water and not overfeed.>
I have
been constantly having problem with diatoms (brown growth mainly on the
glass). I explained this to my LFS and they said I should test
phosphate.
<More likely high silicates (new tank?) or heavy handed
use of iodine.>
As it turns out it is .08 which indicates as Coral
Growth Retarded (too high). What can I do the control this other than
water changes (I change about 8 gallons every 7 days in a 72 gallon tank
with 25 soft and 10 SPS corals which all very small-propagated tank
raised corals).
<General nutrient control measures; careful feeding,
use of purified water, good/high quality/clean salt mix, aggressive
nutrient export, etc.>
My tank has a Kent Nautilus protein skimmer
and Kent Biorocker. It also has a 260 watt power compact which I am in
the process of replacing with a 380 watt VHO hood. I am not sure if
stronger lighting may make my Phosphate situation worse.
<It may
given you even more algae troubles.>
Please let me know. Also, one
other quick question. Today for the first time I noticed a strong odor
coming from my tank when I went to do a water change. It smelled like
rotten eggs when I removed the glass lids. It wasn't over whelming but
noticeable.
<I have occasionally noticed a smell coming from growth
on the glass covers. Do see if that is your origin of the smell.
Otherwise, you may have some real problems appearing soon.>
Again all
my levels are good except phosphates. Thanks Ron
<You are welcome.
-Steven Pro> Phosphate question and skimming
Anthony &
Crew- Anthony helped me last time with drilling overflows in my new
tank. I just ordered by 215 with six 1" overflows This tank is going to
rock! Thanks again Mr. Calfo.
<excellent, bubba><<One inchers? Nah!
RMF>>
I am now writing about my 20 gallon tank that has a bad
outbreak of green hair algae.
<almost always nutrient driven. I would
be surprised if you said you skimmer has been giving you even 3 full
cups of skimmate weekly, let alone daily skimmate>
I know it had to
do with a old DI cartage that I have replaced.
<weak argument... true
that source water can impart measurable nutrients that feed algae... but
it never compares to the nutrients imported from daily/weekly feeding...
poor skimming... weak water change schedule, etc>
Also with nutrients
in the water. I just replaced my PC lights and started using a phosphate
sponge.
<hmmm... OK. Treating the symptom though and not the problem,
rather>
No refugium or skimmer.
<Ahem...>
I know I should have
both but I had to knock down a wall and use a garage for my new tank, I
really have no room for a sump or refugium with this tank.
<Tunze has
a tiny top mount skimmer that firs discreetly on any aquarium ($120)...
Aqua-C has the slimmest HOT skimmer on the market (that works well!)..
The Remora ($160)... no refugium, sump or demolition crew needed. Just a
skimmer>
It has to go when the new tank is up and running so I don't
want to sink the money into that right now.
<my advice would be to
not buy any livestock until you get a skimmer. Let the next $150 you
spend be in plastic, not life forms>
My question is about something I
read on one of the message boards. I read that if you take all of the
phosphates from the water with the new DI and sponge there is still
phosphates in the hair algae itself.
<most all algae... some more
than others. True>
That when I pull out the hair it will release
phosphates into the water which will feed the hair left behind, Is that
true?
<sort of... why not starve it into submission by skimming...
or... let a natural herbivore (urchins are killer for this) turn it into
fecal pellets that a skimmer can export. Algae will be gone in two weeks
with a good skimmer (adjusted properly)>
I am going to add some macro
algae in to the main tank and see if that will help. Am I on the right
path? Thank you again for your time! Josh **Will you ever come to
Hawaii (Maui) sometime this year??**
<the crew is talking about it
very seriously... I'm guessing in the second half of the year if so.
Looking forward to it! Anthony> Phosphate in Fish Only
Hi folks,
<Right back at you, Don here>
Moved to a new town....
City tap is all good, yet high O-phosphate..1.08mg/l. For a fish only
marine ...110g is RO going to be a necessity and if so , why? Other
friends in the area are running without it. I anticipate getting one for
my reef but that is a year down the road....NEED FISH NOW! But little
cash for RO/DI unit... Any thoughts would be helpful. As I said all
other parameters on tap come up clean!
<Phosphate will act as
nutrient for algae. Many kinds of 'sponges' available to remove it, or
if algae does not become a problem, just live with it> Marine
Philodendrons?
Hi,
Have you ever heard of a method where a
plant with outside roots (Philodendron) is used to extract nitrates and
phosphates from water? The plant is placed above the aquarium and its
roots are dipped in aquarium water... this is quite popular with Discus
owners. I wonder if this would work with saltwater, too. I.e. will the
Philodendron not get damaged if its roots are dipped in salt water?
Thanks,
Luke
<Good idea... but one would have to use salt-loving
plants (called Halophytes in science), not plants that can utilize only
fresh. Bob Fenner> Marine Philodendrons?
> Hi,
> Have
you ever heard of a method where a plant with outside roots
(Philodendron) is used to extract nitrates and phosphates from water?
The plant is placed above the aquarium and its roots are dipped in
aquarium water... this is quite popular with Discus owners. I wonder if
this would work with saltwater, too. I.e. will the Philodendron not get
damaged if its roots are dipped in salt water?
> Thanks,
> Luke
> <Good idea... but one would have to use salt-loving plants (called
Halophytes in science), not plants that can utilize only fresh. Bob
Fenner>
Are they widely available fro purchase?
<Have not seen
such plants offered for sale per se, but have seen experiments (e.g.
with Spartina foliosa) for this function>
Is there a particular
species that has roots like Philodendron that could be submersed into
saltwater tank?
<Take a read at a large library near you (please see
here re such searches:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/litsrchart.htm
or try your internet
search engines with terms like "halophyte", "salt-loving plants". Bob
Fenner>
Thank you,
Luke Phosphate solutions 7/31/03
Hi Anthony, I need your opinion.
<my pleasure>
My problem is my
phosphates level: 2mg/l.
<wow!>
I know right approach is
identifying where my phosphates are being imported from (source water,
foods, etc) and screen it there first (better prefiltered FW, change of
food, etc) and using specialized chemical filtrants to remove phosphates
treat the symptom (phosphate) and not the problem
<yes... correct my
friend>
but I've checked my RO water is phos free.
<do check the
foods you are using... soak them in water and test for phosphate before
and after to see which one if any is especially contributory. Do the
same for other aspects of the system until you identify the source (live
sand sample, live rock sample, etc)>
What can you tell me about
ROWAphos?
<it has a very good reputation but is again treating only
the symptom and not the problem>
Hi I'd like to know if 2 litres of
Rowaphos are enough to reduce to 0.1 my PO4 level in my tank and how
long they can last in your opinion.
<I have little personal
experience with this product alas... do seek a consensus form the big
message boards like reefcentral.com here>
I think to put them in my
internal box filter which have 3500 (real it will be 2500) litres flow
rate.
<I suspect this will be very helpful indeed>
I'll put some
Caulerpa too for helping to reduce phosphates.
<do consider a safer
and more stable macroalgae like Chaetomorpha, Ochtodes or Gracilaria for
this purpose>
What do you think about and what do you suggest? Thanks
Lorenzo
<kind regards, Anthony> Media sans
phosphates please
Hello!! Sorry to bother you guys with this
newbie question. I will make this real easy and short. My first
question is:
1) Can you name a few carbon media that will not leach
phosphate? << I think most carbon media is the same, but I use Black
Diamond made by Marineland >>
2) Can you name a few phosphate
remover media that will not leach phosphate? << All phosphate removers
can leach phosphate, after they absorb it. However, they absorb far
more than they will leach. Basically when it turns from a white color
to a tan color, it is probably "used up" and should be replaced. Hope
that helps. >>
Thanks!!! << Adam Blundell >> Super High
Phosphates
I have a 55gal fish only tank with 30lbs of live sand
and 60lbs of live rock. Recently our power was out for over four days.
Since it came back on my Phosphates are very high at over 10ppm. I was
wondering what's the best way to get them back down to a safe level?
Does Phosphate removing media work?
<Hello Kristen. Yes the
phosphate removers do work but you need to check them again after two
weeks to make sure the phosphate remover isn't exhausted.>
Should I
get some Macro Algae? (I can pick up some Caulerpa pretty easily) and
how much do I need?
<Yes, Caulerpa will use the phosphates, a couple
clumps will do, it will soon spread and also help prevent nuisance algae
growth.>
Should I do a couple of big water changes? Or just more
frequent small ones?
<You should always do a 10% change weekly for
the overall health of your tank.>
Lastly, will the high Phosphates
hurt my fish? (Domino Damsel, Maroon Clown, Princess Damsel, Black
Damsel, Red Scat, 3 Black Mollies, and a Marigold Sailfin Molly) I've
been told very high Phosphates will stress the fish and make them more
susceptible to disease. Is this true? <No need to worry. James (Salty
Dog).> Thanks again for all your help, Kristen
High Phosphates
First I would like to say hello to everyone at
WetWebMedia
<Welcome>
My name is Mike, I have a 150gal fish only
tank which has been up and running for about 2 years. My livestock seems
to do very well, except for off and on bouts of parasites which seemed
to be enhanced by my Powder Blues vulnerability to contract marine ick.
After about a year of going mental trying to pacify this pretty fish
with copper treatments, I reluctantly decided to sell him back to my
local fish store where I purchased him. I'm telling you this just to let
you know that there is some copper left in my water at this time. I
haven't seen any signs of ick for months, hopefully that will not be a
issue for a while for I'm not planning to add any more fish to the tank
until I get rid of the copper in my system, and load my tank with live
rock. However this brings us to jest of my problem (so) which I'm
seeking your advice for. ( Which would be my phosphate/ slime problem.)
<Mmm, okay... am sure you're aware of chemical filtrants to absorb the
copper...>
The problem I'm having is driving me nuts since I am very
strict with my maintenance program (cleaning skimmer, water changes,
etc.), one thing that I read in your book that sticks in my head is
that aquariums are nothing more than a glorified septic tank, and I feel
that my fish deserve the best that modern technology and my finances
will allow. I don't think this is a feeding problem because the algae
will start to go away to the point where my rocks are almost clear, then
I do a water change and bingo within a week it starts to come back.
Sounds like a water problem right?
<Not necessarily... where
else?...>
Well let me give the list of specs, and you can hopefully
give me a very very simple solution that might solve my $3500.00
eye-sore in the middle of my house, Which I refuse to give up on until
it is loaded with pretty live rock and good coralline algae.
SPECS
Tank 150gal
Sump 50gal
Skimmer Aqua C adequate size
Mag Drive
1800gal hr
Power Heads 4- 802 in corners at bottom
Lights 200 Watt
Power Compact / 2- 60 watt on 12 hr a day
Natural Light Tank sits in
middle of room one side exposed to lots of sunlight
Salt Mix -
Instant ocean
Water - R/O D/I
Water Changes - 35 gal every 7-10
days
Food
1/3 plastic spoon brine shrimp
1-1/2 rounded
plastic spoon frozen Formula 1or 2 (1 time day)
Vitamins - Boyd's on
food
LIVESTOCK
1 - Emperor Angle 7"
1 - Sailfin Tang
4-1/2"
1 - Fox Face 6"
1 - Convict Tang 3-1/2"
1 - Heniochus
Butterfly 4"
1 - Flame Hawk 2"
1 - Skunk Clown 2"
1 - Anemone
Clown 2"
1 - Half Orange Blenny 2-1/2"
4 - Green Chromis 2"
pH
8.0 - 8.2
Phosphates tested with Red Sea test kit around 1.0ppm
Tested R/O-D/I water reads .0ppm
Nitrates 20.ppm
Copper .10ppm
Trying Seachem Phos Guard 2 days
Well I hope I didn't forget anything
which I'm sure I did, just want to say thanks.( Bob Fenner is a great
inspiration to me)
Thanks Mike
<Mike, does sound/read like you're
doing most everything "right"... limiting phosphate may serve you well
here... I would try at least three avenues... in this order... Try the
Kalk(wasser) trick... adding enough to elevate your pH to about 8.6...
this will precipitate all soluble phosphate... immediately... and of
course, just let time go by and your pH will fall back... Secondly, do
make room for some macroalgae in that sump, and set a small light source
over it... to be on when your tank lights are off... Thirdly, do
consider utilizing some of the fancy schmancy iron-based phosphate
chemical filtrant... or just plain PolyFilter... in your water flow
path. Bob Fenner>
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