Trigger sad, Poor Environment 1/29/08
Hello,
<Hi>
I searched through a lot of posts here and found similar problems, but not exact.
I know it's small but this is in my office at work so I cant' go with a big tank.
I have a 20 gallon high with about 20 pounds of live rock and a Picasso trigger a little less than 2 inches.
<Doomed in this sized tank.>
I run an Aquaclear 200, Red Sea Protein skimmer, Aquaclear 20 powerhead and 80 watts of lighting.
The water tests fine and I do frequent changes.
<"Fine" is relative, exact numbers next time please.>
The tank is blooming with life, Copepods, Anthropods, Inverts of various types, Macro algae (came on the rock) which attests to the quality of the water.
Ok that's out of the way.
My Trigger was in the tank with to Damsel mates. Two weekends ago, I came in and observed the trigger acting skittish and hiding. The blue Damsel was acting like he took over the tank like the Alpha male. I assume they duked it out and the Trigger lost.
<Probably, the damsels are very aggressive.>
For a few days I observed his cowardliness and did some research and discovered that they must have had a tick. I placed the damsel in my quarantine tank and the Trigger came out of hiding soon after. The other damsel started to give him a hard time and he did they same thing. I removed the second damsel.
<He is not healthy so he is low man in the pecking order.>
Now he doesn't eat that I can see (food goes right past his face with no reaction) and doesn't swim around much at all.
<Not good.>
Mostly he sits in his hole, or wiggles slowly with his nose against the glass like he is sad now. His lack of eating is worrying me now since he was a hardy eater. I just bought a small tank raised Clown to put in there with him for company.
<Also can be quite aggressive, are members of the damsel family.>
I'm not worried if things don't turn out too good for the Clown.
<Bad news for the clown.>
What do you think might be his problem, and do you think he will die soon?
<Yes, if kept in a 20 gallon tank he will not last long, it is just not a suitable environment for him and you are seeing it begin to take it toll.>
Thanks in advance for your help.
Keith
<Welcome>
<Chris>

Huma Huma Trigger with a swollen jaw... over and mis-stocking, and?   11/6/07
I have had a my Huma Huma Trigger for about a year and to date he has been relatively healthy. Approximately 3-4 moths ago, he survived Ich which affected my entire tank.
<Does... the fishes>
Recently I have noticed that each morning, his eyes appear to be "bugging" out of his head and later in the day he appears back to normal.
<Okay>
The last few days, I haven't seen any problem with his eyes, but his jaw is swelling. It looks as if he went a couple of rounds with a boxer and lost.
<Good description>
I've searched around on the site, but haven't found much help. Can you offer any direction?
<Mmm, well... could be an after affect of whatever chemical/medication exposure this fish suffered... Perhaps this is coupled or instead due to some nutritional deficiency, water quality anomaly, ingestion of some noxious organism, genetic predisposition...>
Tank info: 50 gal
<Too small... for this species>
with two Pacific Blue Tangs, one Niger Trigger
<Ditto and incompatible with the Odonus>
and One Lunar Wrasse.
<And too small for this Thalassoma as well>
{I used this tank as a hospital tank when I had a huge ich problem. Main tank is 170 gallons.} All appear healthy since we defeated Ich.
<How?>
I was considering transferring all of the fish back to the main tank and placing some schooling fish in this tank when my Huma starts having this issue.
All of the fish including the Huma are very active and eating well. He will even nip my finger if I put it on the surface of the water. He doesn't act like he's sick, but sure looks that way.
Thank you in advance for any help you can provide.
<Well... you do need to move all out to larger quarters... I would try bolstering their immune systems via supplementing their foods... and hope. Bob Fenner>

SICK Huma Huma Trigger; research, patience  3/1/07
Hello, I really hope that you can help me.  
<Hello, and so do I. GrahamT with you today.>
I purchased an established tank about 2.5 months ago.  The tank is a 46 gallon bow front with 10 lbs of live rock.  
<Far less than useful. A *generalized* "rule of thumb" is 1:1 lbs/gallons. More is better...>
The tank had a 2" yellow tang, a 3" yellow tang, a 4" Foxface and two damsels.  
<Too little room for these species, excepting the damsels.>
It has a Penguin 250 filter, a Penguin 350 filter and a Seaclone 100 protein skimmer.  
<This protein skimmer is regularly touted as one of the frequently regretted purchases among hobbyists...>
When we moved the tank we kept about 2/3 of the water.  
<Very good idea.>
After setting up the tank we had the water tested and found out that it was extremely dirty (no detectable nitrite or ammonia, but over 200 ppm nitrate).  
<Wow! Could have a lot to do with stirring up the substrate, or even lack of water changes on the previous owner's part...>
We proceeded to do 6 water changes in about a two week period bringing the nitrate down to 80 ppm.  
<Still very high, and likely stressing out your inhabitants.>
After the last water change the smaller yellow tang died.  
<Mmm, what is your water source for the water changes?>
The next day the larger yellow tang would not eat and was hiding.  
<Not a good sign...>
A day later the large yellow tang died.  
<Oh, even worse.>
The guys at the fish store told us it was probably due to the stress of moving them and all the water changes.  
<Mmm, would not disagree, but without knowing more about the mix you used for water changes...>
I waited two weeks and then purchased a Huma Huma Trigger.
<D'oh! Did the nitrates come down below 40ppm? Had the damsels seemed to look better? (I know they may have looked fine the whole time) I hope this purchase was based on better water conditions, and not JUST time gone by.>
A week after that I purchased a Flame Angelfish.  
<I have to say, this sounds like someone wants to "fill" their tank, rather than stock with appropriate selections and care for them as appropriately. Patience and research is key to success in this hobby.>
It has been two weeks since I introduced the Huma and now it has also stopped eating and is hiding.  
<This is very abnormal behaviour. Triggers are notorious for the voracity. Unless this is a very small specimen (under 1.5") then I suspect your water quality has gotten away from you again.>
Could this be bacterial?  
<Anything is possible, but current water test results are neccessary in assisting you.>
I don't have a QT tank yet, do you have any suggestions on what I can do to save this fish?  
<Take some water tests. Consider upgrading the filtration and liverock compliment. Also, you didn't mention whether you employ livesand or bare-bottom.>
Also, the Flame Angel has a white spot on her lip that has been there since I purchased her.  
<Hmm... you should NEVER buy a fish that shows symptoms of disease. Put a modest deposit on it and the LFS should be happy to keep it QT'd until it looks better.>
The fish store said it was probably Lymphocystis and that it should go away on it's own.  
<Could, but proper nutrition and water conditions help more than time will.>
However after a week it looks like it is just getting worse and she now has a cloudy eye and a frayed tail.   
<I think you need to get some test results and reflect on your purchases. You have to keep in mind that these animals depend on us and require us to know their needs, or else what is the point in keeping them? I used to work at a retail fish store and we regularly refused business from customers that we knew/suspected were buying fish over and over again only to kill them through ignorance/negligence and laziness. I will quote a phrase I use often: Many folks leave the marine hobby in failure due to their lack of understanding and its subsequent devastating consequences. Fish may be purchased with problems you don't see and aren't responsible for. My intention is not to place blame or to make you feel inadequate or inferior. Most of us have made this mistake, or worse ones. We all (hopefully) learn from our mistakes. I think that most of the crewers here at WWM will agree that they hope to prevent the unfortunate side-effects of improper selection and lack or research that they themselves (myself included) have caused. The information you need to be a successful hobbyist is out there (or here!) and you owe it to you and your fish to use it.>
Foxface and damsels are still doing good.  HELP PLEASE!
<Use the google search tool here for your Centropyge loriculus's symptoms, and you will be directed to a FAQ list of those symptoms.
-GrahamT>

SICK Huma Huma Trigger; research, patience (pt.2) 3/2/07
Graham,
<Hello again.>   
  Thank you for your response.  
<You are welcome! Is what we do...>
I really do want to keep these fish alive and I feel horrible that I was probably the cause of their death.  
<Woah! Don't be so quick to hate yourself here. You don't know what the water conditions were when you purchased the system. You may have practiced some patience, but in the end some of us need to make mistakes to know their consequences.>
I did purchase "The Conscientious Marine Aquarist" book when I first got the tank (before I added anything or did any water changes) and have read it cover to cover twice.  
<A good read, no doubt.>
In the book it mentioned that there was no real proof that high nitrates caused fish any harm and that most "fish only" systems run at high rates.  
<This is true, there is no research into the mortality of captive species that are housed in systems with too high Nitrates. We do know, however, that the concentrations at sea are at or near zero and that this is the environment we try hard to reproduce. I would look at 40ppm as a "ceiling" for your FOWLR, with an occasional peak into the 50's or 60's. This doesn't mean that your fish won't be stressed about these levels, just that they might get to that point before a water change. The other end of the spectrum is where we work to keep the bio-load at a point where Nitrates are maintained below 15ppm for FOWLR. It is possible to do with well, regimented feeding and the addition of natural process (Refugium, DSB) that abate these toxins. (All laid out in "TCMA")>
After seeing no visible signs of infection on the tangs (i.e., no reddening, color change, etc) after they died I assumed the guys at the fish store were correct by saying that they probably died due to the stress of moving them and all the water changes.  
<This is possible, but hard to confirm. Either way, I find myself wondering if you have some contaminant in your system. Have you looked over our link on toxic tank syndrome? ( http://www.wetwebmedia.com/toxictk.htm ) I ask because, though damsels are very very hardy, triggers are pretty tough in their own right.>
This was the reason I purchased the huma and flame
<Flame angels are notoriously finicky about water conditions and stress easily. A much more tolerant cousin is the Coral Beauty (Centropyge bispinosa).>
(I also did multiple water tests before purchasing these two fish and everything checked out fine, <Relative. Numbers, if you have them, are far more useful to me.> except the nitrates were still high) <D'oh!>.  I have since taken the flame back to the fish store because I did not want her to get worse and die.  
<A tough decision on your part. I think the right one.>
They are going to try to rehabilitate her.  The Huma has gotten worse, so I purchased a hospital tank (10 gallon) filled it with water from my main tank and put the Huma in that tank to begin treatment for a bacterial infection.  
<What are his symptoms again? Other than not eating, I don't remember you mentioning any outward signs. >
I does not look like he is going to make it.  
<Have you considered treating with Lifeguard marketed by Instant Ocean? (http://www.jlaquatics.com/phpstore/store_pages/details/medicine.php?product_ID=md-aslg016) I mention it because it's a broad spectrum and rather gentle treatment. Unfortunately, it is new enough that I don't have experience with it, and there have been only a few blurbs that I've read lately on it's use. On the good side, it seems very promising!>
  Two questions:  1.  I don't plan on purchasing anymore fish for a VERY long time, but if the Huma lives I need to know if it will be too crowded for him....  My 46 gallon tank now has a Foxface (4") and two damsels (1").  I am planning on upgrading to a 125 galloon tank next year.  
<If you are sure about the timing of the 125-gallon, then you should be ok. Wait! You never mentioned how big he is! Under 4 inches, he'd be ok for a year or so. >
How many fish could I keep HEALTHY in my 46 gallon tank for the next year?  
<For clarification: You have two damsels and a Foxface? With these inhabitants, and the trigger, you are well (if not over) stocked.>
Could I add the Huma back in or should I try to upgrade to the 125 gallon now?
<Would wait for a change in behaviour from the trigger. You have moved him around quite a bit in the past few weeks. That reminds me: did you ask whether the trigger was caught or tank-raised?>   
  2.  What can I do to get the nitrates down?  
<Well: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/nitratesmar.htm http://www.wetwebmedia.com/nitratennr.htm http://www.wetwebmedia.com/denitrification_erfaqs.htm http://www.wetwebmedia.com/nutrientcontrol.htm http://www.wetwebmedia.com/no3probfaqs.htm ...would help you gain an understanding of the various opinions and techniques regarding nitrates and the exportation/conversion.>
(I use tap water for water changes and condition it with PRIME and add CYCLE.  Salt used is CORAL LIFE)  
<Mmm... do you test your water before and after mixing? It is possible that you have some unknown metals or other contaminants in your tap water. I would consider trying to eliminate that area of possible contamination by purchasing a small, effective De-ionizer http://www.aquariumguys.com/tapwaterfilter.html . If you can afford the up-front, then you could try an RO, but I like the DI for it's low initial cost and you can set it aside guilt-free if your tap water is actually fine after buffering. As far as Prime and Cycle go, I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve by their use in this instance. Prime is a dechlorinator/ammonia reducer, and useful in cleaning up (to some degree) tapwater before using in a freshwater setup. You may find it makes you feel better about using tapwater, but I think you should invest in a better form of treatment here. Cycle, IMO, is not worth trying, and I'm not sure what you are hoping for in it's use. If you are medicating with anti-bacterials in a QT then you will be killing off your nitrifying population, adding them back is not how you counteract this, but with water changes. Frequent water changes. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quaranti.htm http://www.wetwebmedia.com/QuarMarFishes.htm http://www.wetwebmedia.com/bestquarfaqs.htm >
I have done about 10 - 20% water changes in the past 2 months and they have gone down from 200ppm to between 80 and 60 ppm but have not budged from the high 80-60ppm.
<See above.>   
  3.  If the Huma lives how long should I keep him in the hospital tank before moving him back to the main tank?  
<No less than 4 weeks, but preferably 6-8. You don't even know what he has, so premature introduction to the display system may be, well, premature.>
Also, is there something more I can do for him besides treating him?  
<Keep his environs pristine.>
I am currently using a broad spectrum anti-biotic because we have no idea what is wrong with him (no color change, no spots)
<See if you can entice him to eat live brine. Maybe he's just too soon from the wild?>   
  Thanks again....I am still learning and I just don't want to be the cause of anymore death.
<A worthy cause. I applaud you for trying and for pledging to be a saviour to your buddies. Spend some time reading here on WWM and you may find something that jumps out at you. In the meantime, provide excellent water quality, nutrition, low stress levels and keep testing.
-GrahamT>

Huma Huma help 1/2/07
hello.
<Hello, Graham here.>
I have had a catastrophe... and want to help save my last fish... I purchased some turbo snails from the local pet store and after introducing them to my 75 gallon tank all my fish started scratching. I added Sea Cure and that was the end of my marine life. I lost 2 clown 2 damsel 1 yellow tang and my emperor angel.. now my trigger is left but he is still scratching away at his side. he has his whole belly red and flakey now. what can I do ? My tank was all zeros for no2, no3 and ammonia and a ph of 8.0-8.2.... I now have him out of the tank and in a quarantine.. he seems to be fine but he is scratching his skin really bad...I an dosing him with sea cure BTW.
<Very hard to diagnose a problem like this when you can't see it. Send a high-resolution .JPG that has been either compressed in an image editor or to a .ZIP file. (Make sure the file is no bigger than 500k, but preferably under 100k) If you cannot send a pic, I recommend you try to work out an identification from our FAQs using the search tool.>
                                                          Thanks
                                                         Josh
<Welcome.>
<P.S. Bob F. : Please jump in if you see a red flag I'm missing! -Graham> <<Mmm... copper poisoning... removing the copper, hope, time going by... RMF>>

A buddy's Picasso in distress....  - 04/05/2006
<Sab>
I had a quick question for ya....  I have a buddy at work (CC'd here) with a 2" Picasso in a 40g tank with two other fish;
<Gonna get crowded...>
water parameters all sound great, am going to double check for him in case his test reagents are old/faulty.  Sounds like a decent setup given the
inhabitants' current size; also, the tank's in good shape/health aside from this little trigger.  He's been in the tank for 5 months and has started
showing signs that he might be blind.
<Does happen>
He tries to go for food and fails to find it.  He apparently acts as though he wants to eat, just can't see/get the food.  The only things I can think
of that might be issues are nutritional problems and toxic metals (copper, etc).
<These are the most common...>
I think we've ruled out the latter though.  The fish are fed on frozen krill, Mysis, brine shrimp, and flakes.  I've suggested he start trying some
frozen/thawed human-consumption fish/shellfish meats, foods soaked in Selcon, maybe some Spectrum pellets, but I'm just not sure if nutritional
  issues would blind a fish?
<Yes, can/do>
  I've read so in a couple of places, but....  is there anything else that I'm missing?  Other things that cause blindness in fish/triggers?
<Likely the third most common "cause" are pathogenic/parasitic problems... next, too-bright/continuous lighting...>
Am currently recommending quarantining the critter so he won't have competition for food and trying to get something into his little concave
belly.  Any other thoughts?
Also, Brent, the link for the conference is http://www.wmc2006.org - hope to see ya there!
-Sabrina
<Oh, yes. And do send along a close-up pic of this fish's eyes if you can.
Bob Fenner>

Re: A buddy's Picasso in distress.... blindness - 04/05/2006
thanks to both of you.  I'll get a close-up of his eyes soon.  as far as lighting goes, i have a 50/50 skylight/actinic on a timer (no reef/coral
set-up), so i don't think that's it.
<Me neither... Bob Fenner>