Temperature Range - Metynnis and Rams? - 09/30/2006
Hello y'all,
<Hi.  My apologies for the delay in reply; I've been out, and your email came to us in a format that unfortunately our Webmail system had some trouble with, and I am one of the only folks able to respond to it.>
First of all, thanks as usual for your maintenance of a wonderfully informative site.
<Thank you very much for these kind words.>
(I recently wrote my comprehensive exams for a PhD in education, and cited this site as a great example of a constructivist learning environment. So thanks for your contribution to my degree as well.)
<This is high praise indeed - thank you again.>
I would like to keep Metynnis hypsauchen and Microgeophagus ramirezi together in a 150 gallon system.
<Maybe possible in this size system, given enough plants and hiding spaces....  but do keep in mind that the rapid schooling and darting about of the Metynnis may be stressful to the shy rams.  This is something I, personally, wouldn't try, but I imagine it can be done with success in as large a system as this.>
My plan is to keep the temp at about 80-81° F, as this seems to be at the upper limit of the silver dollars and the lower limit of the rams.
<The rams can go lower if you don't intend to breed.  Warmer would be preferable for them, but I'm rather concerned about the warm water making the Metynnis even MORE quick and spazzy.>
However, I'm concerned that much of the literature about rams stresses that they're delicate, and happier at temps around 85.
<Indeed.  But I would not bring the Metynnis to this temperature.>
Should I:
a) go with the "intersection" temp of 80-81
b) keep the temp higher, on the theory that the silver dollars are more tolerant of out-of-range temps than the rams
c) not keep the two species together?
<....  I would choose "C".  But again, that's just me.>
Thanks again for your help and patience.
<And you, again, for your kind words and consideration!>
Melinda Johansson
<All the best to you,  -Sabrina>

pH, Microgeophagus    4/25/06
For some more questions on pH for my rams....
I thought I just might by either reverse osmosis water or... get gallons of distilled water.
<Mmm, these might do... to blend... but there are cheaper means>
If I use reverse osmosis water, everything in it is gone right?
<Mmm, pretty much... including oxygen>
so would I have to add more nutrients or chemicals to keep my plants alive?
<Yes... would>
I thought if I mix prepared distilled water along with some tap water every water change about every 2 weeks, then it might lower my pH. Do you think this
idea might work?
<Would likely>
I will just have to find the right amount of distilled water to put in to keep my pH stable.
Thanks
<Have you read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwph,alk.htm
and the linked files above?
Bob Fenner>

Keeping blue rams
Hi guys, hope all in well in your neck of the woods. I am really interested in keeping the dwarf blue ram cichlids. I have been doing lots of research as they are unlike anything else I keep. The tank I have available is an empty standard 29g (30"(L) x 12"(W) x 24"(H) I believe). I want to set it up right from the get go so I don't have to start over. My tap water has a high pH of around 8.2. What's the best way to keep this in the 5-6 range - that's what they need, correct? I am getting conflicting information regarding using RO water, peat moss, black water extract, etc...please help in this regard. What is the best substrate for them? Regular aquarium gravel (large vs. small pebbles?) slate rock, sand...?
How many can I comfortably keep in this size tank? I was thinking 4 would be sufficient, but I am worried about two pairing off and harassing the others. Is it best to have a planted tank (IE, live plants)? I was hoping I could keep live plants and driftwood in there to help the pH out. I realize they are somewhat sensitive, but this would be a species only tank so I am more than willing to go above and beyond to do the necessary things to keep them happy and healthy. What kind of water change schedule do to recommend? I have been reading that some people do small changes (10% or so) once a week to maintain water quality, and others say the more they mess with it, the worse off they are. So they keep it lightly stocked, heavily planted, and leave it for a month or two at a time. I am used to doing water changes on my other tanks every 2 weeks or so, so months on end w/out water changes would seem like neglect! What's your take on this? Any other tidbits you can throw in would be
great too. Thanks a bunch!
< You are talking about one of my favorite fishes of all time. In the wild these little guys come from the open savannah areas of Venezuela and Colombia. You really have to look hard to find wild rams these days. Most of the time they are being bred in Asia. There is a variety also called the German Ram that is a little more robust and carries a little more dark spotting then regular rams. These are easier to take care of too. Overall the water should be warm around 80 to 82 degrees. Water should be very clean. I would use an outside power filter with a bio wheel like a penguin 170 and a reliable heater that won't stick. Sand would be better than gravel. Good food is essential to get them to show off their colors. A good florescent light bulb would really get them glowing. If you just want to keep them alive then I would start off by mixing 1/2 of your tap water with 1/2 distilled water and checking the pH and alkalinity. Try and get the pH to at least 7 to prevent problems. You may need to use a buffer from either Kent or SeaChem to get the ph down to 6. If you want to breed them then you really need to soften the water and get the pH in the 6 range. When you use an RO unit that takes out all the minerals in the water then you have to use less chemicals to bring the pH down to 6 and then stabilize it so it won't continue to drop. For the little bit you are going to need I would get it at a local water store that has already done it for you. If you want to breed the rams then you need to know how to sex them. In general the males are larger and have a black spot on the flanks. If you look at that spot in the sun or with a flashlight you will notice that the black spot is void of the metallic blue scales that cover the rest of the sides of the fish
. Females are smaller and may have a reddish hue to the belly area. If you look at the black spot on a females side then you will notice that there are a few highlighted blue to purplish scales on that black spot. When they pair up they usually lay their eggs out in the open on a rock or on the glass and chase all the other fish away. The eggs will hatch in three days and the fry will become free swimming in another three days. Now the problem comes in. Baby rams are too small for newly hatched brine shrimp so they must be feed the tiniest of foods for the first week. After that they should be removed or the parents may eat them. Regulate your water changes by checking the nitrates. Rams like very clean water and there should be zero ammonia and nitrites. The nitrates should not get above 15 ppm. Driftwood would be great but some plants will not like the higher temps but you should try some of the more hardy plants anyway.-Chuck>

Rams and Water Chemistry
I have begun cycling a tank for rams, I wish to breed a pair in a species tank(10 gal.).
<Sounds like fun!>
I understand their need for a certain water chemistry, but I would like to know "non-chemical" methods for maintaining or correcting chemistry.
<There are a few, and it will depend, of course, on your current water chemistry - what pH, GH, KH comes out of your tap.  Since you're asking about rams, I feel safe in assuming you wish to lower the pH and alkalinity.  My own preferred method is to use peat moss in the filter, and bogwood in the tank.  The tannic acids released from these will keep the water soft and acidic, and do a very good job of it, too.  I use this for my plant tank, which I keep at a pH of 6.2.  Out of the tap, my water sometimes has a pH of 9.4 - with peat and bogwood alone, I bring it down to 7.0, and then the CO2 I add for the plants gets me to a happy and stable 6.2.  The only "drawback" to peat and/or bogwood is that it will stain the water a rich tea color.  Frankly, I like and want this, as it looks more natural in a planted aquarium.>
Also, what is R/O water? I have seen this in several ram forums, and am not sure what it stands for.
<And here you have hit on another method of getting the pH and alkalinity that you want.  RO water is "Reverse Osmosis" water, a method of water purification that leaves you with "just water", removing all the crud that is in tapwater, from chlorines and chloramines to toxic metals.  With this method, you will have to add back the minerals that are stripped away which the fish need.  There are products available for this; I know SeaChem and Kent make some.  Then you'll be set with "just water" plus what the fish need in their water.  From there, you may have to add a buffer to raise the pH and KH to your desired level, if the RO water is still too low.  Don't use pH raising (or lowering) concoctions, as these are very short-lived; without the proper buffering capacity of the water, the pH will fall (or rise) back to where it is/was stable.  If you need to alter pH/KH after using RO, use one of the many buffering products available.  Please check out our FAQs for more on RO and RO/DI water:  http://www.wetwebmedia.com/rofaqs.htm  and be sure to follow the blue links at the top for more.>
Any advice you could give would be greatly appreciated!  Thanks again!  April Gurganus
<You bet.  Hope all goes well with your rams!  -Sabrina>

Rams inquiry
Hello. I'm writing this for my father who had a question re: rams. He has a hard time keeping them alive...the tank is 82 degrees, pH 7, frequent water changes, other fish include cardinal tetra, discus, and angels. Is the problem the pH?
Thanks
Shahrzad Patterson
<A lot of folks have trouble with cultured rams (Microgeophagus)... disparate sources often cite pH "shock" and simply too hard, alkaline water as a principal contributing factor. The pH of the water they are naturally from is listed at 5-6.0... some ten to a hundred times lower (the pH scale is base ten logarithmic), and warmer (27-30 C.) and likely softer (dH of 5-10) than your friends... this would be an area I would adjust in an effort to maintain this fish... though you may well find that your (intermittent, short-term) supplier is maintaining them in much more alkaline conditions. Otherwise, I assure you, as an old-timer in the pet-fish trade, that shipments of this fish vary GREATLY in terms of hardiness time to time. So, waiting, observing new arrivals for a week or so may also make a/the difference in their survivability. Bob Fenner>

Blue/Gold Rams
    Dear Mr. Fenner,
<Adam>
    My name is Adam and I had some questions about rams.  First off I have a 125 gal. tank @ 78 F with a few large iridescent sharks, African butterfly fish, hi-fin bullsharks, redtail and rainbow sharks, silver dollars, black ghost knife, and a few common Plecos.  I just today did a water test to find that I have a ph of 8.4, very hard water and 200+ ppm of nitrate.
<Yikes... the hardness not a concern for your minnow shark species... but the Dollars, Plecos and Rams prefer much softer. I'd be checking your nitrate test kit... 200 ppm is about ten times past toxic.>
I just need to know what the best way is/are to fix all the problems I have with the water spec.s as applied to the preferences of blue and gold rams.
<Better to keep them in a tank without the more "outgoing" species above... and to start with cleaner source water... likely from a reverse osmosis device, though you could use an in-line treatment tool... and then to treat this water either with peat, a chemical prep., or with a system with live plants... before using>
  What kind of live plants are good for rams and their ideal water conditions?
<Others found in the same habitat, that enjoy soft, acidic, warm water... the specifics of the more readily available aquarium plants are listed on www.WetWebMedia.com>
Will Amazon sword work?  
<Yes>
How do peat granules in the filter work and are there any side effects to the water?
<The humic acids, other organics that are the peat counteract, neutralize carbonates... do effect the water... making it softer, more acidic, often yellow to light-brown in color>
If I use a co2 fertilization system will that also effect my water quality, and is this a good idea?
<Will, and yes... will lower pH, hardness, boost plant growth>
  Is there a difference in hardiness between blue and gold rams?  
<Sometimes yes... either can be hardier or not... depending on source (the "German" Blue Rams are very tough for instance, but the ones out of the orient often die easily)>
And lastly, can the fish I listed above handle all the water conditions needed to keep healthy rams?  If not, just say so, I would love to have rams in my tank but if I can't so be it.
<Better to NOT mix all the fishes you list above together... at least two different tanks would be best... with one being for more outgoing, hard and alkaline, cooler water... the other for easier going, soft, acidic, warmer water. Bob Fenner>
Thank you so much for your time,
Adam Staude

Non-utilization of Spellchecker/Grammar - Ram Setup
hey. am cycling a 30 gallon tank. right now all I have in it are some rock with some forming a cave. I want to keep about 3 ram cichlids and other fish such as Corys, tetras, and other small cichlids. now I just need to know. what can I do to make sure that my little rams lead very happy little lives. I have a 20 watt light, I've set the temperature to 28 degrees Celsius. what plants can u suggest I add? my pH is at 7 and always has been. I have successfully kept angelfish, Neons and mollies in the past. do rams have similar requirements?? also I only have ever fed my fish flake food. what live or frozen foods can u suggest I feed rams. would there be anything around the house to feed them? I cant wait until I've finished cycling! 
<<your setup seems fine. Check with your LFS what plants they have that will thrive at the higher temperatures that the rams like.
you should add some frozen foods to their diet. Blood worm is very good, but make sure you are not allergic (many people are), also frozen brine shrimp and white mosquito larvae (glassworm) will be a good addition to their diet.
Try to get two pairs, your tank is big enough.
Have fun, Oliver! >>

Working with Ram Cichlids 6/31/05
Hello, I'm going to get two ten gallon aquariums, and I want to put rams
(Papilochromis ramirezi)
<The correct name is Microgeophagus ramirezi.>
in one of them. Your website recommends 27-30 degrees C, 5-6 ph, and 5-12 dh. I have an "Aquarium Owner's Guide" that recommends 22-26 degrees, 6-7 ph, and 3-8 dh. Do you know if this is because of a different subspecies than the one mentioned on your website, or if the information is wrong?
< In the wild these fish can come from open savannah type pools that receive no shade from trees. The tropical heat can send these water temperatures all the way up to 35 C. The pH of this water can be extremely acidic and be down as low as 4.5 -5.5 with a hardness below 1 dGH. At these levels not too many other fish would survive and rams don't need these extremes to do well in an aquarium. I would use the recommendations from the WWM website if you are going to be keeping rams in a community tank situation and the recommendations from your aquarium guide if you want to set them up for breeding.>
Also, since rams require such a high temperature, what kind of small fish do you recommend to keep it company?
< At such high temperatures the water tends to not carry as much oxygen as it would at lower temperature so you need to increase the aeration. Little Amazon tetras that don't get too big should be fine.>
Finally, the tap water where I live is very basic (8.6 ph) and very
hard (26.9 dh).  What is the most effective way lo lower the ph and dh? thank you.
< There are many different ways to do this but I will give you the simplest answer. Go to a water store and buy 8 gallons of distilled water. Mix it with 2 gallons of your tap water. Every week you should to a 20% water change and replace the water with 80% distilled water and 20% tap water. At this ratio of distilled to tap the water can usually be acidified using peat moss if you really want to get the pH down.-Chuck>

Ram systems
I'm going to get two ten gallon aquariums, and I want to put rams (Papilochromis ramirezi) in one of them. Your website recommends 27-30 degrees C, 5-6 ph, and 5-12 dh. I have an "Aquarium Owner's Guide" that recommends 22-26 degrees, 6-7 ph, and 3-8 dh. Do you know if this is because of a different subspecies than the one mentioned on your website, or if the information is wrong? Also, since rams require such a high temperature, what kind of small fish do you recommend to keep it company? Finally, the tap water where I live is very basic (8.6 ph) and very hard (26.9 dh).  What is the most effective way lo lower the ph and dh?
>> Go with ph 6-6.5, 3-10DH and temp from 26-29C. You can keep them with any small fish from the Amazon like cardinals, Rummynose, and Corydoras. Best way with water like that hard and alkaline is to get water from another source, since you need only 10 gallons you can get it from a friend with better water, no reason to play with chemicals to lower the values, good Luck, Oliver.  

Ram question, peat in a bag
I've been wanting to get into cichlids because I like their color but lack experience.  I was wanting to put my tank to the test as far as tankmates goes; I've got long-finned danios, angels, balloon-belly mollies, an Opaline Gourami and a peacock eel.  I saw that danios were in the "tankmates" section to get the rams out but I wasn't sure about the others.  Water maintenance is no problem; I work at a pet store where we do free water testing so that shouldn't be hard to do at all.
<Should get along if the system is large enough>
I also had a question about peat, though.  I've seen that angels like peat as well in their water but I didn't know how to make a bag.  I don't want to order online but I want to make my fish happier.  Is there a way to prepare a peat bag (or even a way to install it into the substrate/filter)?  Or do you have it posted somewhere and I just haven't found it?
<Mmm, you can/could buy, use a Dacron bag made/sold in the trade for containing such chemical filtrants... but pantyhose, stockings can work here as well... and yes to "just" placing the boiled peat and bag in the tank, under the substrate, though placing it in an area of water flow is better for more rapid effect. Bob Fenner>
Thank you for your time,
Sarah

Ram Cichlids, Water - 08/18/2005
Hello! GREAT site.
<Glad you enjoy it!>
My question to you is if my local water ph is high (sometimes reads to the maximum of my regular ph test kit which is 7.6 - 7.8, I don't have a higher reading test kit, so I can only guess if it's more)
<Do please get a test kit for higher ranges, and find out what, exactly, your pH is.>
can I still keep dwarf rams?
<Likely, if you can find a local breeder who raises them in similar conditions.>
I have a 55 gal. with tetras, an angelfish, and two Corys who all seem to be doing well. I have yet to lose a fish in the two years since setting up the tank except for the second angel that the first one terrorized. I know these are all from similar waters as the dwarf rams, so what do you think?
<Likely no compatibility issues here.  Sounds good.>
Have you ever seen them do well in a high ph environment?
<Yes.... even breeding.  But again, you should strive to find rams that are already used to such a pH from a breeder in your area.  Try asking around at fish stores, and join any local fish clubs within reasonable distance.>
I do have lots of driftwood in there, but no real plants, only fake ones. Also, I never tested the hardness of the water. Will that be a factor?
<Possibly; it is certainly worth knowing when you seek out someone with similar conditions from whom to purchase your fish.>
THANKS!  -Marty
<Wishing you well,  -Sabrina>

Adding Chemicals to R/O Water For German Rams  1/16/06
I plan on using Buffer to do the 6.8 pH that you  recommended, but the R/O Right adds some salts and other "essential  stuff" that the water supposedly needs to be healthy--even for a soft  water tank.  I hadn't heard about the needing to do that, so that  is why I was confused.  So would you add it? Thanks again, Scott
< I would recommend that you follow the directions on the package and see how the rams are doing. German rams are a domestic strain of rams that are much hardier than their wild cousins.-Chuck>

Setting Up a Ram Tank  - 01/12/2006
Hi Bob, before I get started, I would just like to  say that your site is the best source of aquatic advice and information  that I've found.  Unbelievable how much information you guys put  out, and also how consistent you are!  Thanks for the site.
< Bob and the rest of the WWM crew thank you for you kind words.>
Now to the fun stuff!  I am getting ready to move into my first  permanent residence since living with my parents, and I am going to  shut down my reef tank with the move and make a change most of my  friends with aquariums don't understand. I'm going to start a  German Ram tank.  They have been my favorite fish since the moment I saw them years ago.  I will be using a 90 gallon tank, 48"L x  18"D x 24"H.  I will be using RO water with Seachem neutral  regulator combined with their Discus buffer to get my pH set.  I  know people recommend anywhere from 5-7 pH, but what single number would you want?
< 6.8.>
Also, I want to get pairs of rams, so how many pairs should I get with the tank dimensions that I have?
< Six to eight pairs.>
I have heard some people claim you should use a 2 to 1 ratio of female  to male rams also, then others claim just one female per male.  What do you recommend?
< Six males to six to eight females.>
I plan on using live plants that aren't too delicate so they don't fall  apart.  I have ordered "Eco Complete Plant substrate" to use with  them.  I have a sump that will use CPR's bio bale for biological  filtration.   I have ordered a 216watt T5 light fixture, not  wanting to hang any Metal Halides in our new house.  Is that enough light for Swords or any other plants that you'd recommend with the tank being 24" deep?
< If the swords don't work then try some Cryptocorynes.>
I'm also figuring on throwing in some Cardinal and Glowlight Tetras.  And the biggest 2  questions. What have I not thought about that I need for the tank, and what have I forgotten to tell you? Thanks again for the website! Scott
< Rams are my favorite all time fish. They like warm water of at least 82F+. German rams are much hardier than the wild ones from Venezuela. Don't let the nitrates get up over 10 ppm. Quarantine all your fish before putting them in the big tank.-Chuck>