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FAQs about Sea Cucumber Selection
Related Articles: Sea Cucumber, Marine
Scavengers, Sand Sifters
Related FAQs: Sea Cucumbers 1, Sea Cucumbers 2, Cuke
IDs, Cuke Behavior,
Cuke Compatibility, Cuke Systems,
Cuke Feeding, Cuke
Disease, Cuke Reproduction,
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Sea Apple = A-Bomb
03/25/07
I am completely heartbroken and devastated. All the fish in my main
saltwater tank (135 gallons) were just killed by a Sea Apple that
eviscerated while I was at work except for three fish.
<Unfortunate, but all too common. I am sorry for you loss.>
Only two paired Ocellaris Clowns and one Blue Green Chromis
survived. Fifteen others sadly
died, including four cleaner shrimp. Apparently this happened when my local
electric company temporarily terminated electricity and my equipment turned
off. I came home to find the devastation, dead fish everywhere and the
worm-like insides of the Sea Apple were all over the tank.
<Such is the risk of keeping Holothuroids in a populated tank. Evisceration
is really more of an eventuality than a risk. It most likely WILL happen
and at an inopportune moment.>
By the way, there were all kinds of unidentified creatures in the tank that
I have never seen before, some were crab-like, others had shapeless forms
and were about a half inch wide, what are these things?
<Various Polychaete worms, and other crustaceans most likely. Impossible to
say for certain without a photo, even then exact I.D. is hit or miss.>
Fortunately I had a second tank where I put the three fish (24 gallon
Nano). They seem to be doing OK.
<This is a good thing. Why don‘t you have a Quarantine tank?>
Unfortunately, I have a pair of established Tomato Clowns that immediately
started hassling the Ocellaris’ and the Chromis so I caught one of the
Tomato Clowns and put him in a ventilated breeding unit to isolate him from
the others. I am working on catching the other which is hiding in his
Bubble Tipped Anemone, I hate to have to do this but I want the stressed
fish from the other tank to be able to relax and de-stress without being
chased all over the tank.
<Another reason to have the quarantine tank.>
Do you think this is a good idea?
<Would be better to have a quarantine tank. Go purchase a 10 gallon tank,
and a heater and filter. Place some established media from the Nano that
you have into it’s filter. Then place your stressed fish into it. This is
much better than hassling an established environment.>
I need advice on what to do now with the main tank.
<Siphon out the remaining viscera, and about 70 % of the water. Over the
next few days do a 20% water change each day. This should dilute the
poison. Make sure that you get ALL of the dead animals. They will be
broken down as part of Nitrification, and will pollute your tank.>
I will remove the dead fish but what do I do with the corals, they seem to
all be fine, will they survive?
<Hard to say. Time will tell.>
Should I remove the corals immediately to plastic container with chemically
adjusted RO water? Or should I risk putting the corals in my 24 gallon
Nano?
<I would follow the water change plan firstly. Then if the corals start to
degrade I would consider moving them. You don’t want to do anything drastic
that might crash the Nano too.>
Would that possibly poison the water in the Nano?
<I would think that the increased bioload would cause problems.>
I also have two Crocea Clams, will they likely survive?
<Again time will tell. Please see above Re: Water Changes.>
After I remove the corals and snails or anything else that is still alive
what should I do with the water? I would assume I should completely drain
it, is that correct?
<Please see above. I would NOT drain all of the water.>
What about the live rock and live sand, what should I do with them? How
will the worms die and how should I get rid of them?
<Not really sure what you are asking. I was under the impression that these
worms were already dead. If not, then NO LEAVE THEM ALONE. They are GOOD
for your system, and are present in all healthy systems.>
Are these worms toxic themselves and if they remain alive in the rock after
the cleanup are they harmful to the tank?
<No. They are your friends. Likely came out because they sensed carrion
which is what they eat.>
After a complete water change which I’ll assume I should do, how soon can I
replace any fish and corals?
<Do not do a complete water change. I would do one large change and then a
few days worth of 20% changes, and then a weeks worth of small 5-10%
changes. Start adding fish one at a time and QUARANTINE them. I would say
one fish every two weeks.>
Should I treat the tank in any way? Do I have to completely recycle the
tank? Could you please take me through the proper steps I should take at
this time, I need help.
<If you don’t change all of the water at once you should be fine. There are
obviously some creatures that survived.>
When I eventually pick myself up and slowly add fish back to the tank I vow
to always listen to the advice of the WetWebMedia crew. You guys know what
you are talking about.
<Thank you for your kind words.>
My story is probably a typical one; I asked about Sea Apples from a LFS and
was told that they were harmless filter feeders.
<More or less true, unless you irritate one.>
I was attracted to their bright colors and figured I could trust the store
owner. I didn’t do my research and found out a few days later through your
site that Sea Apples were potential killers and should be avoided.
<Doh! You should always research before purchase.>
I contemplated returning the Sea Apple and was strongly leaning toward doing
just that until I did some further research with obviously less
well-informed “experts” that theorized that a tank wipeout was extremely
unlikely.
<They obviously have not kept Holothuroids for extended periods of time…>
They also said that most of the fish would survive even if it did happen and
there likely would be time to get the fish out.
<Again Holothurin/Holotoxin is a very powerful neurotoxin. It also depends
on the kind of Holothuroid that you have. Some are worse than others.>
Unfortunately, you were right and they were dead wrong and my fish paid the
price.
<Sad to hear this really.>
I feel responsible because I was forewarned by you after I bought the Sea
Apple. I had a healthy thriving tank with no deaths for seven months. The
water was good, I was doing routine water changes, all the fish were healthy
and I had the Sea Apple for about six months with no problems. I have
learned a painful lesson and I vow to be a more conscientious fish owner
from this point forward.
<We all learn from our mistakes. Everyone was new to this at some point.>
I usually follow your advice to the tee but all I takes is one major
mistake. I also learned to never trust my LFS without doing research before
hand. I know this is a touchy subject but what would you do in this
situation regarding the LFS that sold me the Sea Apple. What action and I
don’t necessarily mean legal action would you take.
<I would make my situation know to them. If they seem unconcerned or
callous about your plight, I would further go to the local Marine Aquarium
Society. I would tell them what happened and ask that they not patron this
establishment. You could put up a blog to share this experience, etc.>
I am curious to read your response. In the meantime I can really use some
immediate help with this mess ASAP.
<I hope that this helps.>
Thank You,
<You are welcome.>
(please feel free to post this for others to read in the Marine Aquarium
articles)
<This correspondence, like all correspondence to WWM will be
posted. Brandon.>
Have you received this, I haven’t seen a response.
3/26/07
<Yes this was received. Should be an E-mail in your in box waiting on
you. I have a copy of the response that I sent. Let me know if I need to
resend it.>
Where will I see a response, I could use some help with my problem.
<You have received an E-mail, and you can check the response on the daily
FAQ section of the site as well.>
Thanks
<You are welcome. Brandon.>
Sea Cukes Recommendation: Yellow cucumber (Colochirus robustus)
2/20/07
Dear WWM Crew,
<Hi Alex. Mich here.>
What is a good beginner sea cucumber, also I need 2 sea cucumbers and I have a
40gal and a 10 gal what are my options? Please help.
<The Yellow cucumber (Colochirus robustus) is one of the easiest to keep,
commonly reproduce in captivity and is quite pretty too! It is best to start
them in an area of high water flow. These are suspension feeders and they do
better in systems with refugiums. Also hermit crabs, particular Blue legged
hermit crabs can be potential threats to these cucumbers. Good luck! -Mich>
Sincerely, Alex
Sea Apple For a Nano?--Not
Advisable (6/7/05)Hi,
I inherited a 12 gallon nano cube and am interested in keeping a sea apple.
The only other livestock I plan on having is zoanthids, Blasto, and possibly a
couple sexy shrimp. Will this tank be large enough and will the lighting be
bright enough (24 watt pc) to accommodate what I am planning on stocking? Also,
is there anything that I mention that may not get along with the sea apple?
Could you possibly point out some of the more notorious apple antagonizers so I
can avoid them? <Anything that nips, as in virtually any fish.> The apple is
definitely the focus of the tank and I'm willing to house only that creature if
need be, but I'd love to make things look a little more interesting. Thank you.
Mike <Sorry Mike, but I have to advise against this. The vast majority of Sea
Apples slowly waste away and die even in big tanks. They are very difficult to
feed. In a small tank such as yours, the chances would be even less, not to
mention the devastation if it releases its toxins. Study the FAQs and articles
about these on WWM and elsewhere. It is possible to set up a nice little Nano
reef in a 12. I suggest you study WWM and check out our Nano forum on our chat
forum for info. Hope this helps. Steve Allen.>
Sea Cukes
Quick question:
Bob's book & your site both suggest only a nut case would keep sea
cucumbers. Yet the book also implies that they might be good in a refugium.
These seem to contradict.
<Actually, it's mainly the larger species, particularly the "Sea
Apples" which are problematical. Many small species are fine>
I saw some fascinating small sea cucumbers (pink & bumpy--look like attached
photo borrowed from your site). Am interested in one of these for my
DSB/LR/Algae refugium. Am I nuts?
<Not about these cukes at least! They're fine for refugium use. Bob
Fenner>
Steve
Starfish Addition Possibilities (cucumber too?) - 2/6/03
Hey again: Furniture - ugh! Definitely not how I meant it.
<heehee... didn't think so :) But you scared me a little <G>>
Thanks for the sea star advice. "Freshwater veteran, Marine
newbie" - I am taking this endeavor very seriously (and I take deaths very
badly)!
<very good, my friend>
But, alas, I have fallen short grammatically :(!
<I have that problem daily and I get paid (a little) to do it. Ha!>
I currently have a 10 gal QT and all future inhabitants will rest there
first.
<excellent!>
Now that you mention it, any chance for a cucumber too?
<a few are hardy... most are not worth the trouble. One of the easiest serves
no useful purpose at all but is quite handsome. The Bright Yellow Fijian Cucumarid
is a filter feeder that fares well and reproduces by division easily>
I haven't gotten to that section of your site yet. I have some
hitchhiking slugs from LR (or I think they are - they look like snails without
shell, but with sort of a pint-size shell on
bodies).
<actually... you have a paper shell snail of the genus Stomatella... do use
that genus name to find pics on the Internet to confirm>
I did read in a recent AFM article (or other mag) that cucumbers are too hard,
and to get a lettuce slug instead.
<although most Nudibranchs are even more delicate than the Holothuroid
cucumbers at large, I would agree that the lettuce slug is hardy if you can grow
enough to keep it fed. Still... the choices overall are weak (sea star, cucumber
or sea slug). Have you considered any of the hardier Echinoid urchins instead?
Some real beauties like the Tuxedo urchin>
Would you agree with that statement (if I have paraphrased
correctly)?
<agreed>
I just love all the different life forms, but I know I am limited by tank size.
<actually... by species selection at this point. Do consider some hardier
options to be safe. Brittle and serpent starfish are excellent too>
Thanks, again! Rich
<best regards, Anthony>
Sea cuke too big!
Bob,
<Linda>
Hi there! We talked a few years ago as I converted my tank to include
a Caulerpa refugium in the built-in sump area in the back. It has
worked out pretty well. After growing up my human babies a little, I
decided to stock the tank with a couple of interesting critters. From
a reputable mail-order place. I got a fancy serpent star, a
sand-sifting star, a bulb anemone, a tiger tail sea cucumber, a dwarf
feather duster, a small maroon clown (tank-raised), and a small
red-headed goby (tank-raised). Also, a couple of macroalgae
"plants"
for the display. The sand-sifting star was doa (this was refunded
immediately). The rest of the specimens look great and are behaving
normally. The clownfish has bonded thoroughly with the anemone and
the
goby is scooting around. The feather duster is trying to find its
happiest spot and has attached upside-down to some rock (weird!).
The sea cucumber had really murky water and looked like it might have
expelled some stuff on shipping or it was shipped with a bunch of
detritus. Having been forewarned, I am very wary of problems with
cukes. I observed it in a fish bucket overnight with an airstone and
heater and several small partial water changes during that time, since
I don't have a sponge filter ready to go yet. Upon closer
observation,
it appeared fully intact with good color and was moving about.
<Good precautionary measures here>
I added
it to my tank and am observing it. It looks as though it is starting
to do what it should be doing. Unfortunately, I think it is WAY too
large for my tank.
<This can be trouble... take a read through the June ish of FAMA (2003) for a
pc. by Iggy Tavares re his experiences and reflections of using Sea
Apples...>
It came in a package for a 30 gallon tank, which is
at least 50% smaller than mine (I undersized carefully). Also, the
place I bought it from advertises that these specimens will be 2-5"
when sold. Mine is at least 12 and probably more like 16"!!!! It
is
beautiful, to be sure, but I am afraid that it will not find a suitable
home in my tank.
<Agreed. I would try to trade this in>
Should I offer it to the LFS so they can find it a more appropriate
home?
<Definitely>
Your friend in fish,
Linda
<Be chatting, Bob Fenner>
Scared of turds?
WOW!
After reading http://www.wetwebmedia.com/seacukes.htm
, I think I'd rather scrub each grain of sand by hand than deal with a
sandsifter like a cucumber! I don't want to turn my tank into a dangerous
neighborhood!
<Hehe, no worries, the cuc's that I'm recommending are the turd-like
Caribbean varieties (Holothuria floridiana) and tiger tail cuc's. Neither I, nor
any of my customers, nor any search on the popular reef boards has yielded a
toxic experience with these critters. Check out Dr. Shimek's forum on reef
central for some more reassurance.>
What other options exist?
<Hermit crabs pretty much "scrub each grain of sand by hand",
Nassarius snails turn over bits of the sand as they burrow, and so do sand
sifting gobies (which are detrimental to the sandbed fauna). -Kevin>
Rich
Sea Cucumber Questions (10/21/04)
Hello crew. I hope this finds you all well. <Thank you. I hope you are well
to. Steve Allen tonight.> Thank you for the prompt and informative response to
my last question. I'm hoping you could field a few more about Sea Cucumbers.
<I'll give it a shot.> I absolutely adore the little critters <Fascinating
indeed, but some are quite risky.> and would like to add more to my 200 Gal
tank. As it stands I have a pair of Pink and Green guys <Pentacta anceps> that
are getting along quite well now that the Butterfly is leaving them alone. <How
long have you had them. It may take months for them to starve to death if
underfed.> According to your cukes page, they are
one of the more docile species. <all cukes are docile in the behavioral meaning
of the word, as in not aggressive. It's their poisonous insides that are a
problem.> I'm well aware of the risk in keeping any cucumber, <Good> but
assuming one were intent on doing so, can you recommend (some of) the species
that tend to get along well in captivity? <I'm a big fan of the small yellow
Colochirus robustus, which often reproduce by fission in the tank. I started
with two and now have six. Some of the detritus-eaters, such as Tiger Tails are
hardy. I'd skip Medusa Worms and Sea Apples.> Perhaps you could rank those on
your cukes page in terms of difficulty? If that's too much trouble, I'm
specifically curious about Pink, Yellow, Black, and Tigertail Cucumbers. Do
these tend to get along well in the reef aquarium? Is my tank large enough to
house the latter most? Any negative interactions I should watch out for between
species or with other common tank mates? Thanks for you time. <I highly
recommend reading the Sea Cucumber chapter in Fenner & Calfo's "Reef
Invertebrates"--very practical and useful. Another great one is Volume 4 of
Fosså & Nielsen's "The Modern Coral Reef Aquarium." Hope this helps.>
Cucumber Follow-Up (10/22/04)
Okay, so I decided to get a Tigertail and a couple Black Cucumbers. I also
plan to add some Yellows a little later, but I digress. I think my Tigertail is
in trouble...he appears to be shedding! <Could be problem. >I noticed on your
second cuke FAQs page that someone else has encountered this problem. You
(that is, Steve Allen) said that it was not normal. I was curious about what
exactly is going on and did some online research. <good> I found several sources
which agree it is abnormal and sign of poor health. However, I also found a
number of sites which said that they secrete a mucus-like substance when
stressed and still other sites which said they can accumulate a thin layer of
sand which they occasionally shed - both of which say its nothing to worry
about. <Well, I'd worry about "stress." This varying information shows just how
much we don't know about these creatures.> Now, I'm inclined to take your word
over these other sources, especially given that he's not moving around much, but
I wonder if you could tell me a little more about what exactly is happening to
my cucumber? <I think that the key here is its behavior. It may indeed be normal
for them to shed some material, but the skin should remain intact. If not, there
is a problem. Additionally, a creature that does not behave normally is having
some issue. I trust you acclimated these echinoderms slowly. Hard to say if it
is a water quality issue, stress from being moved to a new home, or some
illness.> Also I've also emailed the conflicting
sources for more info because I'm really rather concerned about the poor little
guy. I'm going to try and track down one of the texts you recommended later this
weekend, but would really appreciate some quick advice. Please help. If he is
indeed sick, what can I do? <Keep an eye on things and maintain excellent water
quality. Consider moving it to a quarantine tank for observation and then
treatment with antibiotics if this appears to be indicated.> I don't have the
heart to simply yank him out.
Oh, also, I've had the Pentacta anceps for a couple months. When I first got
them, they didn't look so good and there was the trouble with the Butterfly, but
I feed them a ton (directly) and their colors have really come out so I think
they're doing well. <Good job.> Thanks again for your help! <I certainly hope
things work out. Steve Allen.>
Yellow Cucumber Follow-Up (11/30/04)
Hi Steve. <Greetings>
Thanks for your help, that is just what happens here, now I have 2 cucumbers.
<cool!> That was something I was wondering but never really believed because I
try to find information from books and all I find was that this creature can
poison everything in the tank. <Seeing is believing. Check out Anthony Calfo &
Bob Fenner's "Reef Invertebrates" book for great info on many sea cucumbers and
other cool creatures, as well as excellent chapters on refugiums and algae. As
for wipeout, these smaller critters are very unlikely to cause this in all but
smaller tanks. It's the Sea Apples that are the big risk. Some other larger sea
cucumbers are also a risk, but these little yellow ones are seldom a problem.>
So lets see how many I will have next year. <Hopefully quite a few if you can
keep them healthy and well-fed.> Thank you again for so many help for this
hobby. <My pleasure to play a small part in the wonderful service that WWM is.>
John Hyttinen
Sea Apple liability... lawyer question?
Bob,
Who should be held responsible when a retailer sells a customer a sea apple
which poisons the tank and doesn't even tell the customer how to feed it? In
looking back now, soon after I purchased my first sea apple and added it to
the tank, I started losing fish quickly. My first sea apple died because I
wasn't told how to feed it and was told that it blew up from the inside out
because of lack of food. I was told when I bought it that it fed much like
that of an anemone. I have purchased a second sea apple now from the same
retailer and I am starting to see my fish die again, one by one (four in the
first 24 hours the sea apple was in the tank). I didn't know about the
poison the sea apple puts out until recently and I read the question sent in
to you by Ryan. The retailer where I bought both of my sea apples says he
took the poison out of both of them. My question to you is: Is this
possible?
<Re the first responsibility question... I don't know. The retailer for assuming the customer knows enough? The customer for buying something without investigating it sufficiently ahead of time? Concerning the second question; I've never heard of such a thing as removing the poisoning capacity of sea cucumbers... but don't believe it really can be done. They have a few mechanisms (front and back)... including "throwing up" much of their internal organs... some bits of which are toxic. and regenerating them later. How would you do this preventative surgery?>
I also bought a spotted moray eel (approximate size: 8") which ate other
expensive fish and bit me! I was also sold a panther grouper that ate my
shrimp the first night it was in the tank. I was never warned by the
retailer about the eel or the panther grouper's eating habits or their
aggressive behavior.
<Hmmm, maybe time to look around for other dealers.>
I am not asking you to be an attorney, but in your professional opinion,
don't you think the retailer has a responsibility to the customers he sells
to advise them of possible problems or special feeding habits--especially
in a community tank such as mine. This certain retailer has even been to my
house and is familiar with my tank.
Sincerely Submitted,
Ronnie
<Sounds dedicated, just not very well informed.
Bob Fenner >>
Question: First off I would like to say you have a great site, keep up the good
work. My question is about a sea apple. I recently bought one and now I think I may have made a mistake. I have talked to may
local retailer, and he tells stories about being sued for sea apples poisoning an entire
tank. Also, he commented about their eggs killing an entire tank. In the past few weeks I have noticed small white growths all over my live rock, and I
am concerned that these are "baby" sea apples. I would appreciate any input you
have on this matter.
Bob's Answer: Ryan, I doubt that these are "baby" Sea Apples (they're
definitely not). But you should be concerned. Paracucumaria, in particular of all their
Order, are bad news. They don't have to reproduce to cause real trouble. Just getting
"upset" by being sucked against an intake, burned by a heater, tormented by you
or a tank mate... can/does bring about the end of many a pet fish hobbyists avocation.
Sea Apple?
Dear Bob:
I just received an order from FFExpress and one of the things I got for
my reef tank is an Australian Sea Apple. This apple is huge! Its about 10" X
4.5" What my question is, will this apple release toxins if it gets near my
anemones. About 20 minutes after I put the apple in my tank it started
heading straight for my biggest long tentacle anemone (8"). Then when my
apple fell right into the anemone I got worried so I moved him to the other
side of the tank.
Any suggestions would be great! Thanks, Boyd Bunk
>>
These animals are very poor risks for small marine systems (only hundreds of gallons)... Keep an eye on your livestock... and be prepared to dump most all the water and replace it... add
PolyFilter... and remove the animal/or the rest of your livestock if/when the Apple/cucumber eviscerates, or dies...
Bob Fenner
Sea Cucumber
I was thinking on getting a small Sea Cucumber to help rid the tank of
Detritus and to stir up the live sand. My concern is whether my brittle
star will eat the cucumber. I have never seen it take a snail or hermit
crab but wanted to make sure.
>>
Need to be careful here... Depending on the species of cucumber (make it/them small ones... more numbers rather than larger ones... definitely not the Sea Apple...too toxic, likely to cause poisoning troubles)... and your size of system (bigger than a sixty?...) you ought to look for fish-stirrers rather than cukes...
Bob Fenner, whose sand-stirrer, Sea Cucumber, Marine Scavenger pieces can be
found archived at www.WetWebMedia.com
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