DSB in Nano 01/10/2008
Hello Crew,
<<Hello, Andrew here>>
I've been in the marine hobby for about 4 years now and still hooked <<Aren't we all>>. I have a question and a comment. Right now I have a 2.5 gallon tank on my desk which has been running for about a month with just live rock. I am upgrading to an 8 gallon bio cube with the intent of putting a single mushroom polyp and 2 or 3 Zoanthid polyp and watching them grow<<Sounds great>>. To most people that might seem like a waste of space and a tank but I've always been fascinated with watching things grow and multiply. I test twice a week keeping a record of all my result and I do a weekly 10% water change, with several micro water changes during the week to keep the salinity stable. The same will apply to the 8 gallon once its up and running. My question is this, I would like to know if I should go with a bare bottom tank or have a deep sand bed (3" +). I know that having a bare bottom will make cleaning very easy, but I have never set up a tank with a DBS and I would like to try it so that I may further my knowledge and experience with the hobby. If I do opt for a DBS, what are the long term effects in a nano tank?
<<You could do a DSB of 3 inches, yes, however, I feel in a small aquarium as this, a lot of space will be wasted. Benefits of a DSB is that you will have an anaerobic area for denitrifying bacteria and provide nitrate removal. More info can be found here. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/deepsandbeds.htm >>
And now for my comment. I work at a local fish shop and I do my best to get people started on the right foot by telling them before buying anything research it. I usually hand a business card with your website written on the back of it. I am still surprised and a little frustrated with the attitude towards aquariums. It seems like people insist on stocking the tank as fast as they can. Too many times I've seen customers walk in with tanks stocked past the limit within the first 6 months of the set up. Then they come back after a year and complain they have terrible algae problems or that all their fish are getting sick. I can't stress enough the benefits of being patient. One more thing, I'm really sick of people treating the fish as if it were an ornament to put in a glass box. These are living creature with (to some extent) feelings and personality. I don't understand why people insist on give the fish less than adequate conditions. My biggest pet peeve is tangs in anything smaller than 100 gallons. All those poor hippo tangs that have died because of an ignorant hobbyist putting it in a tank that is way too small. I hate that excuse "but its small and I will switch it to another tank when it gets bigger" statement. That fish will probably develop growth problems before you decide to invest in a bigger tank. Would you keep your child in a 3'x3'x3' room, over feed it and clean it once a month? will it be healthy? Think about it people!!! treat it as if it was your own child and it will reward you. I promise.
<<I understand your concern, the vast majority feel the same. Let us hope this type of fishkeep always stays, at most, in the minority of the hobby>>
Thank you for your time.
Pat
<<Thank you for the questions and comments, A Nixon>>

RDSB Water Flow Questions 12/21/2007
WWM Crew,
I just finally finished reading the many pages of information on deep sand beds and nitrate reducing methods. I found it to be an excellent discussion and a wealth of information. However, I have a question that remains unanswered...
For background, I have a new 210G BB SPS dominated tank with a 60G sump, and I'm using a 75G AGA (48" x 18") for a RDSB with 6" of sugar size sand. The RDSB is not lighted. I have 150# of Tonga LR in the main display. I'm using a Reeflo 250 Orca as my skimmer and I typically run carbon passively in my sump. Flow through the entire system is high with detritus staying in suspension and being removed via a filter sock in the sump. My main focus/desire for the RDSB is for nitrate reduction followed by an increase in bio-diversity of the overall system.
I'm interested in opinions on both (1) overall flow through my RDSB as plumbed into my total system (currently I'm moving less than 200G/hour through the RDSB tank with the returns directed at the top of the tank)
<This sounds good to me. I'm sure opinions vary on this, but I think as long as your moving about as much water in an hour as you have in the main tank, you're probably good. Of course, to a point, more is probably better.>
and (2) flow within the RDSB, not only in volume, but with respect to how, where, and by what means (currently I have no additional flow other than the main returns).
<Water flow actually THROUGH the DSB is largely dependent on the benthic life of the sandbed. You want to have a lot of worms, micro-crustaceans, etc. living in the sand to turn the sand grains around. This is what moves water down and through the sand.>
Specifically, I'm interested in opinions on flow techniques at the sand/ water interface level.
<If you want to add more water flow above the sand bed, you can just add a powerhead. If you don't think you can do this without creating a sand storm, you could try piling some rocks in one corner and pointing the powerhead at the rocks from the other side of the tank.>
Thanks in advance and thanks for maintaining this excellent resource.
Tony
<De nada,
Sara M.>

DOH! Anaerobiosis  11/16/07
This is a follow up question to one a few weeks ago that Bob answered (thanks Bob and thanks for the info, helped big-time!).
<Welcome Tom>
Long story short, large system, three 300 gal tanks linked together, perfect water param.s including no phosphate on Salifert (I run Phosban). I have an aged DSB (7months) in the display. I had ph issues and then ran into ventilation issues when adding additional halides, so I was not surprised when some of my SPS browned down, that was 2 months ago (I run a bugless system, dip, qt everything coming in, no signs of aefw). But over time they should have colored up so I started looking for potential issues in the system, I had bad sand in two tanks (shallow beds but not shallow enough). I shut each tank down, removed the sand, and set up a new DSB in a large refugium with tons of flow and Nassarius and Chaeto. Color started to return! However, at the same time I tested the DSB in the display by vacuuming test holes, and low and behold I found tons of Anaerobiosis.
<Easy to occur in such large systems>
SO here are my questions:
- I would love to take down the display and simply replace the DSB with new sand (I used the wrong size sand for the depth I had, I should have used sugar grain), however the DSB in the refugium is only a week old. What is the best strategy to use here, I have a ORP controller running and will be getting a sanders ozonizer next week. I am not losing any pieces and I am seeing good polyp extension, I am thinking the best thing to do would be to vacuum out and replace perhaps 1/4 of the DSB in the display a week (testing trates each week), that way by the time it all has been replaced the refugium should be NNR, correct?
<In time...>
I just don't want to implement too many changes too fast either. As a side note I have been using SeaChem's Stability to help inoculate (I know it may be a waste of time but its worth a shot).
Thanks a million, I truly appreciate everything you guys do
Tom
<If there's room, I'd just place the sugar-fine on top... an inch or more... IF no room, as you say, remove/vacuum out some of the extant and add... and be patient here for now. Bob Fenner>

Re: DSB creatures or not?  11/13/07
I'll ask some fellow reefers for a few fine sand samples. Luckily we have a healthy reefing community here in the Chicago area. :)
<You sure do. :-)>
There are a couple of reasons why I want to separate the CC and remove it from the main tank. Aesthetically I'd like the fine sand substrate
look. Chemically, I've read on WWM that crushed coral and the like (aragonite based) will lose its beneficial nutrient "leakage" within 18-24 months in an average tank, so its time to recycle it anyway.
<Well, actually, I think crew members here have had some small disagreements over if aragonite actually puts anything in the water that's beneficial. After looking at the dissolution constant (and saturation points in salt water) of calcium carbonate, I'm not convinced it dissolves in a normal reef tank (the pH would just have to be too low--again, in my opinion). But, even if it did increase alkalinity/calcium in some way, you can use other supplements to accomplish the same thing.>
Finally, the overall depth of >1" and the mix with the finer sand substrate is making me think that it may be a contributor to my never ending battle with nitrates. (yes, I do water changes regularly, etc...)
<In order for a sand bed to help with nitrates, it needs to be at least 3 to 4 inches deep. This might be helpful:
http://www.ronshimek.com/Deep%20Sand%20Beds.htm>
Removing the crushed coral should leave less than 1" depth of substrate in the main tank.
<See above.
Best,
Sara M.>

Old Sand For New DSB? – 10/06/07
Hello Crew!
<<Hiya Don!>>
Well I have my 210 AGA up and running.
<<Neat!>>
I have 54 corner FOWLR with a 6-inch DSB. When my 210 is all done cycling can I add the 80# of sand if I clean it out real well instead of buying it?
<<Sure>>
I won't need it to be live because everything will be done in the 210.
<<Okay>>
Oh by the way the sand would go into the 135 gallon sump I have and make a new DSB if I could.
<<Yep…>>
Oh yea if you haven't figure it out I want to put all my live stock and LR into the 210 and that is why I ask.
<<After the new setup is cycled I hope…>>
Thank you for your time.
Don V.
<<Regards, EricR>>

Deep Sand Bed, Low Salinity System 9/21/07
Hi. Greetings from Alaska.
<Hello from Chicago.>
I have a 55gal. FOWLR with quite a bit of fish. Bicolor angel, Raccoon B/F, Fox Lo, Royal Gramma, Flame Hawkfish, Tomato clown and a Yellowtail damsel.
<I would call that very heavily stocked, even overstocked.>
I am a big fan of hyposalinity system and that is not as a treatment but as a method of my hobby.
<I have to disagree with you here, keeping fish in anything other that natural as possible conditions is exceedingly stressful over time and leads to an early demise.>
I am running this tank for more than a year now and I have no disease or any problem on my fish during this period.
<Unfortunately I don't think this will last over the long haul as the conditions take their toll.>
I am planning to buy a HOB refugium and make a deep sand bed in it. My question is: Can a anaerobic nitrifying bacteria form or thrive in a deep sand bed with a salinity of 1.010 SG?
Thanks for your response.
Larry
<The bacteria will colonize this area, there are many species that live in all different salinity levels. However I encourage you to reconsider your approach.>
<Chris>

DSB reading referral  7/21/07
Hello. I have a couple questions regarding a sumpless, 55g mixed-reef start-up, if you'd be so kind. First, I'm going to utilize a deep sandbed of 4", and wanted to know if there's a formula to use so I know how many lbs. of sand I will need.
<Mmm, can guess... as tanks have varying dimensions, sands differing densities... you'll likely need about 120 pounds or so>
I plan to use "sugar fine" or a notch coarser (any suggestions regarding grade of sand?).
<Yes... posted...>
For seeding, what would be a good/minimum ratio of "live sand" to use along with dry aragonite?
Lastly, I figure it's smart to use two heaters, in case one fails, so what wattage for each would you suggest? As always, I really appreciate your help. Eric
<And we your taking the time to read: http://wetwebmedia.com/marine/setup/index.htm
Scroll down to the Substrates tray... DSBs... Bob Fenner>

DSB tank and planning  – 07/18/07
Hi crew,
How's it going? Good I hope.
<Thanks :-)>
Want to say thanks for answering all my questions thus far. I have a few ideas that I'd like to run by you guys and gals about a tank that I'm in the process of setting up. I have a forty gallon reef aquarium with 192 watts of daylight PC's and a cheap skimmer that works
quite well. So far I have around two inches of course sand and I was thinking about putting a 2" layer of sugar-fine sand on that to have a DSB.
<I'd take out the coarse sand and use only the sugar fine sand (or a bit finer if you can).>
Would this work?
<Well, if you're wanting it to work as a biological filter, coarse sand is not a good idea. You should have at least 3" of finer sand. Fine masonry sand works too if you don't want to pay the money for aragonite.>
Also I would like to get something in the way of a sand-sifting cucumber, seeing as they do not eat all the good creatures in the substrate like the sand-sifting stars would.
<Nassarius vibex snails are also good substrate mixers. And kudos to you for doing your research on those sand-sifting stars!>
I have around 30 Lbs. of live rock in my tank too, and would like to get a lot more.
<Ok, but it is possible to get too much live rock. It's not about weight. It's about volume. You can get more if you want, but just keep in mind that the more rock you have, the less water you have.>
As in the way of corals, I have a rock of mushrooms and a rock of Zoa's. Could I get some species of Sarcophyton and an Open Brain?
<You can get one or the other but don't get both. Sarcophytons produce toxins that are trouble for LPS corals (and especially bad for the open brain corals).>
I am also going to get the H.O.T. magnum filter. Any suggestions would be helpful.
<Hmmm... maybe run some carbon in that H.O.T. magnum.>
Thanks!
<De nada,
Sara M.>
-Nate

Re: DSB tank and planning  – 07/18/07
Hey Sara and crew,
Thanks for the quick reply. I am just going to a one question to follow through. Did you mean take out the course sand and put two inches of sugar-fine or finer sand, or take out the coarse sand and put in 4 inches of sugar fine or finer?
<Ah, sorry for not being clear. To make a proper sand bed, I suggest you take out the coarse sand and add 3 to 4 inches of sugar-fine sand (or a bit finer). You should also seed the sand with some established live sand which you can either purchase or get from a fellow reef keeper with a well populated sand bed.>
Anyway, thanks for the help.
<De nada,
Sara>
-Nate

Live Rock on Top of a DSB ? – 06/28/07
Hi there guys!
<Hi Jason>
I've got a 20 gallon fuge for my 70 gallon mixed tank.
It's a new setup, only 2 weeks old. I've placed some sugar-fine sand in the fuge. To "seed" the sand, I placed about 15 pounds of live rock (from my last snorkel dive) on top of the 4-5 inch sand. My fuge is very visible, and I like it looking nice. It is actually part of my display, separated by glass with a couple small holes.
I've got some questions regarding the setup... is it ok to leave some live rock on top of the DSB?
<Yes, Live Rock on the DSB is OK. Just make sure there is plenty of sand dwelling fauna to keep the sands maintained>
How much is too much? From what I've read on WWM so far, most people agree that live rock on top of a DSB is a nutrient sink for nitrates and live rock on DSB is a no-no, but I've found some posts stating that this is ok. I hope you guys could clear it up for me.
<There are reports that DSB become nutrient sinks. The biggest reason is nutrients aren't being exported via resins or water changes as frequently as needed so over time there is a build up. Using source water that has a zero TDS reading and changing resins and water changes every 30 days helps prevent this. Sand beds also have the ability to create ammonium (another nutrient) so the use of Caulerpa in the sump is recommended. The Caulerpa will assimilate any nutrients that the DSB may be adding to the water. With the use of Caulerpa and activated carbon/phosphate resins together you can control nutrients in the tank quite well>
If I need to take out the live rock and place it on my display, will I cause any ammonia/nitrate spikes?
Besides taking out the rock very slowly, and having some water at hand, is there anything else I can do to minimize the spiking?
<Being that the tank is 2 weeks old you will have a spike as the tank cycles. Water changes should be done at the end of the nitrite cycle. If I have misread your statement and the 70g is established and the sump is a new setup, then you should have little to no spike in the nitrogen cycle because the bacteria in the established aquarium will compensate naturally for that. As far as anything else you could do is concerned, keep up on water changes and exchange all resins every 30 days. Keep your protein skimmer cleaned at least every other week so that it is running at it's best potential. (sooner if necessary) and run your sump lights on a reverse photo period to the main tank.>
Thanks,
Jason
<Rich aka MR. Firemouth>

Another DSB/Nitrate Reduction Question – 06/23/07
I have a 58gal tank + sump with approx 45lbs live rock, crushed coral substrate.
<<This last is likely a large contributor to your Nitrate issue>>
A Finger Leather, a few Mushrooms, Xenia, Zoanthids and some Yellow Polyps.
<<But for the Xenia, quite a noxious combination>>
All are small and well spread out.
<<But in a relatively “small” volume of water…do employ some purposeful chemical filtration (Poly-Filter/Carbon)>>
Livestock = Yellow Tang,
<<Tank is not big enough for this fish, mate>>
Maroon Clown, Royal Gramma and a Sixline Wrasse + Snails and Hermits.
<<Not that you should consider it now, but if things change, that Pseudocheilinus will make future fish additions problematic>>
Protein skimmer that makes about an 8-12oz of dark skimmate a week. My nitrates are consistently in the 20s.
<<Ah yes, this needs to come down. It’s hard to say for sure but, perhaps you need a better/more efficient skimmer>>
5-gal water change every 2 weeks with aged RO water.
<<Allowing the salt mix to “blend” for several days I hope>>
It’s understood that by increasing water changes, I will dilute the Nitrates, but I do not want to have to do this on a permanent basis.
<<Mmm, understand the mindset…but on this small volume this is an inexpensive and most healthful process. And doubling the volume to 10-gallons could make a very big difference here>>
Reduced feeding does not seem to help reduce the Nitrates.
<<Coming from somewhere else>>
It seems that I have a lot of debris in the crushed coral even after using a gravel vac.
<<Course substrates can be very problematic>>
I have taken some crushed coral out and cleaned it but I am afraid to do a lot at once for fear of shocking the tank.
<<Mmm…may not be much of an issue if the existing depth/volume is small>>
I think that a DSB is the way to go.
<<I am a strong proponent of this methodology>>
After the DSB is up to par I would add more live rock.
<<Don’t act too quickly re the rock…fishes need room to roam>>
At the present, 100lbs of pet store aragonite is not in my budget.
<<The retail side of the hobby IS proud of this stuff>>
I see 4 ways to get to my goal of having a DSB. 1) Remove all of the crushed coral at once and add a bag at a time of aragonite over several months until it reaches the 4-6 in. depth. 2) Add a 12x16x4 DSB in the sump inside a plastic container and then do the above. 3) Wait until I can get enough sand to do the change at one time. 4) Wildcard option, to use limestone play sand that I found in a local Home Depot (Chicago region).
It did pass the vinegar test, but it does not say where it is from. The pallet is in a slot marked Old Castle but I did not see Old Castle on the label, I can/will check again.
<<This is probably not Limestone but rather Aragonite sand…and most desirable/useful as such re our hobby>>
If these were your choices, what you would do?
<<Hmm, a combination of all these choices! I would purchase sand from Home Depot…add the DSB to the sump and wait a week…remove the crushed coral from the display and add the full depth of sugar-fine Aragonite to create the DSB… And do consider rinsing this sand before adding to the display. Some authors say this isn’t necessary…and on new systems it is less of an issue…but I speak from experience when I say you will not like the result if you merely dump this sand in to your existing display without rinsing away at least “some” of the “fines”>>
Until the nitrates are lower, I will not add anything and will have to increase the water changes.
<<Good>>
I consult the WWM regularly and am thankful to all of the crew for the comprehensive site.
<<The “Crew” is happy you find the site useful>>
I do not understand how you all have the time and patience to answer our repetitive questions.
<<Hee-hee! Can be trying at times for sure…but the greater good we “know” we are doing far outweighs the occasional inconvenience or thoughtless/selfish querier. And to be fair, the “Crew” has it easy compared to Bob who must “handle” all the queries we leave, as well as maintain the site/post all for the public’s edification>>
After reading your daily questions for a while, I have come to the conclusion that many of us who ask questions (myself included) are not ready to accept the hard truth; we want a magical cure to Ich and other problems, as in my case Nitrate reduction.
<<Ah yes! Tis true many write in looking for validation for something they know is wrong, and subsequently refuse to accept the “hard truth” as you say…but by far the majority of folks are just looking for some “personal” attention/guidance to their dilemmas. And as we often tout here…nobody should rely on a “single” source for their information anyway. Hobbyists should research/attempt to gain information from a variety of sources (books, NET chat forums, WWM, hobby clubs, etc.) and use their own good judgment to choose a course of action…WWM is just one cog on the wheel>>
Thank you!
<<Quite welcome…and “thank you” for this opportunity to rant [grin]. Eric Russell>>

DSB/ Coral Sand 6/20/07
Hello,
<Hi>
I'm about to set up a DSB to help with my high nitrates problem. This may well be a stupid question but is coral sand the same thing as aragonite? <Yes, or at least most likely both are calcium based.> I can get hold of some sugar fine coral sand for my DSB but I am struggling to get some aragonite. Seachem and AquaMedic bring aragonite into South Africa but there's none around at the moment. So, will coral sand do the same thing? <Yes, you can make sure it is calcium based with a little vinegar, looking of it to sizzle a little.>
I did read your DSB page a couple of years ago and set one up with aragonite. It did reduce my nitrates to zero in weeks, amazing. However, I moved house and built a 900 gallon system. I never got around to doing another DSB and my nitrates have shot up so quick.
One more question, when we moved house and my system, my LFS people said I had to throw away my DSB because disturbing the sand would release all the bad stuff. So I did throw it away. Is this right? <That’s what I have done when moving, once exposed to air the nitrate reducing bacteria die, you are starting from scratch in that regard anyway. You could clean out the existing sand and reuse it, but that always seemed like more work that it is worth.>
<Chris>
Thank you so much, again.
Kind Regards,
James.

DSB questions 6/6/07
Hi Crew,
<Ed>
Thanks for all your help so far. You've been an invaluable resource in helping this noob get started on the right foot.
I have a 42 Hex with 40 lbs LR, a 3 inch sandbed (mixed fine live sand and CC), 175 MH pendant, Remora skimmer on MJ1200, and a rio400 powerhead for added circulation cycling for 5 weeks now. What's in there so far is the cleaning crew (2 skunk cleaners shrimp, 1 sm. brittle star, various hermits and snails) and a couple small frags (few Zoa buttons, GSP, 1 sm Xenia stalk, 1 sm mushroom) and no fish yet. I do a once a week 5 gallon water change and top off with RO/DI water. Everything is doing quite well.
My question is about the sand bed. My nitrates have been sitting pretty steadily at 5-10ppm. I was concerned that maybe my sand bed is just a bit too shallow or coarse. Might this be the case?
<Mmm, yes... and your system is new...>
I've read that DSB's will perform differently depending on the situation and my tank is taller than it is wide, hence lower surface area. Can I add more fine live sand at this point without affecting the tanks cycle?
<Likely so, yes>
Would this even help?
<Ditto>
I did just add 10 Nassarius snails this week. Before that, nothing was really sifting through the sand which I realized after some research is quite necessary. Would more sand stirrers be beneficial?
<Not really>
I guess 5-10ppm nitrates isn't that bad and maybe I'm just being impatient, but I'd like to see them at 0 before adding any more livestock. Thanks so much for you time =D
Ed Gambler
<Mmm, will likely never be zero here... w/o the addition of more outside filtration of a few possible designs... I take it you have read on WWM re Nitrates and their control. Bob Fenner>

Lighting a DSB, possible coral grow out system in sump.  3/30/07
Hello
<Dzien dobry Lukas, Mich here.>
This is my first e-mail to you. I'm writing from Poland.
<Welcome!>
I have a 600 liters reef aquarium and I just started my DSB in sump. It measures 50cm X 40cm and the sand is 8.5 deep (size of aquarium is 160cm x 60 x 60)
<Very nice.>
and my question is: does the lighting above DSB have any influence on it.
<Oh, yes, of course.>
Is it bad or is it maybe worthwhile to light.
<Depends on what you want to do.  You can have a DSB for NNR that does not have any lighting.  If you want a refugium to grow macroalgae you will need some kind of lighting, though, it can be minimal.>
if it is good what kind of light do you recommend- I'm thinking about two T5 24w - I want to put some propagated corals in sump to grow in peace.  
<If you want a place to grow out photosynthetic corals you will need lighting.  The two T5 would be fine for macroalgae but you may need more than what you have depending on the corals you are trying to propagate.  Give it a try, you could always add more lights with the T5's.  I think the T5's are an excellent place to start.  There are many FAQ's on coral propagation.  Could start here and continue with links in blue:  http://www.wetwebmedia.com/corlpropfaqs.htm  >       
I know it's lot of thinking but I hope you will help me
<Will most certainly try!>
Looking forward
Lukas
PS. Sorry for my language if it is abusive
<Hee!  Not abusive at all.>
Please answer me on this email if its possible
<Will do!  -Mich>

Re: Lighting a DSB, possible coral grow out system in sump.  3/30/07
I think I have too much nitrates in my system
<Have you tested your levels?>
so I would like to reduce them by DSB.
<Excellent!>
So if I want to use it for NNR and don't want to have any macroalgae but still have some light for soft corals propagation at first,
<You can do this.  Macroalgae would also help with NNR.>
I will light the DSB in that case would it be bad for it?
<No, Not bad.>
or it makes no difference if there will be no alga.
<You can light it, but it is not required if there are no corals or algae present.>
any animals you recommend for DSB, some sea stars etc...?
<Nothing you need to purchase, life will self seed from your live rock...you have live rock correct?  -Mich>

Re: Lighting a DSB, possible coral grow out system in sump.   3/31/07
Yes I have 80kg of live rock in show tank.
<Glad to hear!>
But in the sump I have just few very small pieces, is it necessary to put some more in the sump?
<You can, but is not necessary.>
Won't it "destroy" the surface of DSB that I think is very important.
<No.  It is not the surface of the DSB that is critical, the DSB works as a whole. The surface is important, but the depth and the grain size are equally or more important.  You may want to consider a book titled "Reef Invertebrates" by Anthony Calfo and Robert Fenner.  The first part of the book does an excellent detailing such living filters.>
Ohh and what about the circulation above the DSB. Should it be strong?
<No, is not necessary for just the DSB.  If you decide to propagate corals in this area you will need some good circulation.      Mich>

Adding CaribSea Mineral Mud to existing DSB refugium   3/29/07
I have a 90-gallon reef tank with a 29-gallon refugium that's been set up for about 6 months.  Currently, the refugium has a 6" DSB (sugar-fine aragonite) with about 20 pounds of live rock frags placed over the top of the sand bed.  Above the live rock, there is about 8" of open water where I grow Chaetomorpha.  I've been contemplating adding Mineral Mud to my refugium to provide a better environment for anaerobic bacteria, and burrowing micro-fauna, as well as time-release additions of trace elements.  In order to do this, I believe I will have to do the following:
* Take out all of the live rock & DSB
* Drain the water from the refugium
* Lay down a 1" thick layer of Mineral Mud in the empty refugium
* Put the DSB back over the top of the Mineral Mud (gently to avoid mixing)
* Replace the live rock frags
* Refill the refugium using a dinner plate to avoid disturbing the sand bed
<Mmm, I would not do this... NOT mix the mud and calcareous substrates>
Question No. 1 - do you think there is substantial benefit to adding the Mineral Mud to my existing system?
<There likely is, however I would keep the two types of media in separate areas...>
Question No. 2 - if yes, do you believe the steps above are the best way to accomplish this?
Thank you in advance,
Steve Lasik
<Mmm, please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/refugdsbfaqs.htm
Bob Fenner>

Re: Adding CaribSea Mineral Mud to existing DSB refugium  3/30/07
Bob, thank you for the link to pertinent questions.  I tried to find FAQs that specifically addressed my situation, but could not.
<We must need keep pressing on... adding "more complete answers"... in the form of "articles"...>
A follow up question: I want to split my refugium area (12" x 20" inside a 29-gallon tank) into two separate compartments, one for a DSB w/ Chaetomorpha, the other for a mud substrate w/ Gracilaria.  Would it be better to split this lengthwise into two parallel channels (6" x 20"), or just two 12" x 10" compartments, with one flowing into the next?
<Interesting question... I don't think either algal arrangement will result in more/less competition in any sense... but do think I'd go with the parallel arrangement... to aid experimentation further in adjusting water flow rate, lighting... Bob Fenner>

Re: Adding CaribSea Mineral Mud to existing DSB refugium  3/30/07
Okay, I will divide the refugium into two parallel channels, 6" x 20" with equal flow going to both sides.  This leads me to two more questions:
1. Do you agree the Chaetomorpha & DSB should go together in one channel, and then the Gracilaria & mud together in the other (my logic here is the Gracilaria will root in the mud, whereas the Chaetomorpha just floats)?
<Mmm, yes... I do agree>
2. Should I put some of the live rock rubble in each channel, or put all of it on the DSB side?
<For me, this latter>
Thank you for your continued input,
Steve
<And you for yours. BobF>

DSB Set-up Questions  - 02/15/07
<Snowy greetings! Mich with you today.>.
I want to add a DSB to my aquarium for NNR.  I'll give you the details of my system before I ask the question.
<OK.>
My tank is about 2 years old.  220 gallon tank, FOWLR.  About 200 pounds of LR.  Coralife Super Skimmer 220.  About 1 to 1-1/2 inches of very fine sand in the tank.  The LR and the skimmer are all the filtering I have, no bio balls.
<Alright.>
I just purchased a 40 gallon heavy-duty tote that I want to add
alongside my sump for NNR.  The new tote is kind of short and wide, so it appears to be at least 25% of the surface area (in terms of square footage) of the main tank.  
<OK.>
I thought that I would put about 6 inches of the Home Depot play sand in the new tote for the DSB.  I like the look
of crushed coral, so I thought about replacing the fine sand in the display tank with 1/2 inch of crushed coral.  I would move the fine sand from the main tank to the DSB to mix with the Home Depot sand.  So, I wouldn't actually be removing the current sand from the system, just moving from the display to the DSB. Does this seem like a reasonable set-up to you?  
<Mmm, yes, though I would consider going deeper than 6 inches if possible.>
Am I doing anything that would cause more harm than good?  
<Mmm, not that I can think of.  I would add the sand from the display last to the 40 gallon tub, to preserve the life in the sand from the display it should be the top layer in the tub.>
Thanks for the help.
<Welcome!  -Mich>

Re: DSB Set-up Questions  - 02/15/07
<Hello again!  Mich here.>
Thanks for your prompt reply!  
<You're welcome!>
You mentioned that I should go deeper than 6 inches of sand in the DSB.  How deep would you suggest? I've not seen anyone recommend sand deeper than 6 inches in WWM before (not that I mind making it deeper).
<Over time, due to the buffering properties of the sand, some of the sand will dissolve and compact and the 6 inch sand bed you started with may become a 5 inch sand bed.  If it were me/mine, in a remote setting I would start slightly deeper, but it really is up to you.  You want a minimum of 4 inches.   You will see varying opinion if you read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/nutrientcontrol.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/dsbdepth.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/dsbfaq2.htm  >
Thanks
<Welcome!  -Mich>

Deep Sand Bed 1/5/07
Hello Crew:
<Hi>
I currently have a 55 gallon reef that I am trying to add a DSB to.  I am slowly adding the sugar fine sand and I am now up to about 4 inches.  The problem that I am having is that my four Maxi Jet 1200's are blowing the sand like CRAZY.  <I bet, big powerheads.>  I don't want to change them because my corals are doing very well with them.  I was wondering if I could use different substrate as the top 2 inches for the DSB.  I was thinking crushed coral.  <Not really, will trap debris and cause nitrate problems.>  If I can use crushed coral do you have any recommendations on how to avoid the milky water that crushed coral always causes? <Wouldn't use.> I know you can rinse it for ever and still get the cloudy water.  I do not use a filter just an Aqua C Remora and am concerned that the cloudy water would last forever.  Thank you so much for your help.
<Best bet is to try to rearrange the powerheads.  Maybe find a configuration that works better.  Crushed Coral will only add problems long term.>
<Chris>

DSB's... lighting?    12/26/06
Hi crew.
<KB>
I was wondering if a DSB has to have appropriate lighting for success.
<Mmm, no... unless other organisms used that require light...>
I was planning on treating my 'water change' water as it has around 20ppm nitrate when it comes from the tap.
<I would not drink or use this water for cooking... See WWM re water treatment>
I was thinking about getting 2, 100 liter tubs, putting a 6 inch DSB in one and cycling the water from one to the other and back again. I am planning on storing them under my house where it is quite dark. Also how long do you think the water needs to be treated in this quarantine area before I can put it in the main system, then replaced and
start treating again, another batch of water?
<Likely about a week... you will see>
Does it need to be heated the same temp as the main tank?
<Yes... tropical, stable>
My other option was to put the water in the main system and treat it there with a HOB fuge with DSB, but again, I’m unsure about lighting (if at all).
Many articles on your site say you should have opposite cycles, but is this necessary?
<Not necessary for a DSB itself... however "reverse daylight photoperiods" in sumps, other areas that are tied-in with ones main-display system/s that are illuminated when that/those system/s lighting is off are very useful>
Thank you for your awesome knowledge and taking the time.
Merry Christmas from Down under, Sydney
<And to you and yours. Bob Fenner>

Using alternate substrate for DSB + coral sand for buffering.  - 10/28/06
Crew,
This is Amod Oak from India. First of all, a BIG thanks to you volunteers!
Without delay, here's the deal:
Prospective tank specifications: 30L x 24B x 30H inches.
Prospective DIY sump specifications: 30L x 18B x 24H inches, with a total of 4 chambers, first two (small) acting as mechanical filtration + skimming chambers, the third, the biggest one intended as a refugium, and finally the last one housing the return pump.
The query: In India, we have access to aragonite sugar fine sand that is very very costly. It is not feasible to use it for a DSB. So I was wondering, can I use some alternate but inert substrate of sugar fine size for a DSB? For e.g. crushed, sugar fine marble sand?
<Can... not nearly as soluble/suitable though>
Yes, I know that it wont help in buffering, but here's my second question, what if I use the aragonite or maybe crushed coral sand in the refugium to help with the buffering? That way, I will have both.. DSB (without buffering capabilities) and aragonite/coral sand in the sump with buffering capabilities? (aragonite/coral sand in the sump so that quantity required will be less.)
<Will likely work... am surprised there are not more ready sources of crushed coral sands>
And the last question, all over the site I have read that BECAUSE other alternate substrates are not made up of soluble calcareous substance, they wont help in NNR.
<Mmm, not so>
But isn't that wrong? NNR is achieved due to anaerobic biological activity in the DSB, so how is calcium associated with it? As long as buffering is assured, wont NNR carry on in any sugar fine, inert, spherical DSB?
<There is some natural nitrate reduction possible in/with all substrates>
P.S: I have not included any other system specifications because my question only concerns using non calcareous substrate for a DSB.
Thanks and regards,
Amod Oak.
<You should do fine here. Thank you for sharing. Bob Fenner>

DSB In A Bucket - 10/20/2006
Dear Bob, James, Steve and the entire crew (also Anthony if he is still around),
How are ya?!
<Tired, answering lots of questions today and getting sick of the computer lol. And Anthony is off and on.>
Anthony Calfo awhile ago advocated the idea of using a DSB in a 5 gallon bucket to reduce nitrates in a reef setup. The idea as I understand it, is to simply get a bucket with any type of sand and have filtered water move across the surface back to the tank/sump (bucket is to be covered to prevent light from getting in). What is your opinion of this? There is not too much on this topic in the FAQs. RC has a lot of opinions on this but I need "real
advice" from experts (yes I'm kissing up!). I am thinking about doing something similar.
<Okay so first thing, there is no such thing as an expert in this field. Being an expert implies that you know it all and I'm sorry to say no one does. Sorry my personal peeve. But there are lots of people who do know lots of things. That being said, the idea is to set up some type of extra way to remove nitrates and if you have tanks that have problems with nitrates then anything that you can do to help this is a good idea in my opinion.>
I originally planned on using a converted Amiracle SL 150 Wet/Dry filter (about 12-13 gallons) as my refugium for my new 120 gal (I will only have a half inch sand bed in the display). With my space limitations under my stand, this was the biggest refugium that would work. I was originally going to have a 5-6 inch  DSB in there with my Chaeto but I am beginning to decide against this because of the volume the DSB will take away from the
Chaeto/water (I obviously have a separate sump for my skimmer, phosphate reactor etc). BTW my water was going to be pumped into the refugium from my sump and then gravity fed back into the sump.
<Just a thought here, I usually run my refugiums separate from my sumps so I can control the rate of flow through the refugiums to get optimum removal of nitrates.>
Do you agree with my concern about the DSB taking volume from my Chaeto - my main goal is nutrient export and pod production - or am I over thinking this?  
<I see why you are thinking the way you are. I think for your particular purposes this might be the way to go or you could have no sand base whatsoever.  Anthony had various points to using the DSB with his removal and changing to a small sand base looses those cleansing aspects as well but if you only want to do this for the nutrient removal then the Chaeto is the way to go.>
Back to my original question i.e. DSB in a bucket and assuming you agree with the effectiveness of it and that my 13 gallon refugium is too small for a DSB and Chaeto,  here is what I plan on doing. Instead of using a bucket I plan on using a 6 gallon green water storage container (used for camping) and drill two holes for bulk heads on the side. I would fill the container with about the equivalent of 5 gallons volume of sand from my old tank after washing it thoroughly to remove Hydrogen Sulfide smell etc.
<If you wash your sand you loose all the good benefits as well. Just take sand from the very top disturbing no more than 1/4 of the sand at a time. You can do this over an extended period of time. Also, you don't want to dig way deep into the sand anyway in your tank because you want to avoid problems in your main tank.>
I would then simply get a Mini jet water pump and pump water from my sump and allow
gravity to feed it back to my sump. There would be no need to cover the bucket since the green container with the lid would take care of light getting in. Would this work and/or am I missing something here?  
<I think that would work along the same concept of what Anthony was proposing as well.>
Thanks again for all that you do (Sorry for the long post)  
<Long posts welcomed, sorry about the delay in answering.>

Miracle Mud & DSB...Can I Use Both? - 11/10/05
Hello There
<<Hello>>
I love your forum, your assistance and guidance is an absolute wonder for the Aqua-ciety.
<<We're pleased you find it useful.>
I have a quick question, I did read your FAQ's and I did not come across any discussion or topic specifically about using a DSB and Eco-System filtration combined.
<<ok>>
My setup - 120 gal, 6" aragonite DSB, 100/lbs live rock. I am wondering 1 thing.  According to the Eco-System website installation procedures, they specifically instruct the public NOT to use more than 1" sand bed in the main tank along with their filtering system.  I have read your pages on DSB's and I agree for a DSB for main tank filtration but I wanted to add the Eco-System refugium below the tank for extra filtration.  Do you recommend using a DSB 6" inline with the Eco-System/refugium with their product MM (Miracle Mud)?
<<No reason you can't do this.  The choice is yours to either follow the Eco-System procedures exactly, or in your case since you already have the DSB in the tank, to use a "modified" version.  I don't think employing both methods together is going to "hurt" anything.>>
Any insight would greatly be appreciated.  Also, I was curious to know if I had to read your comments on the web or would you be so kind to email me directly?
<<We do both...we post and reply.>>
Thanks in advance and thank you for you wonderful efforts in this hobby.
Sincerely,
Maurice Rousseau Jr.

Refugium Methodology...Reverse Flow DSB? - 02/11/06
Hi,
<<Hello>>
I have a 210g reef tank (200lbs. LR and a large number of corals) with a 40g sump and a 40g refugium.
<<cool>>
Lighting is an Aquamedic space light with 3-250W 20K HQI.  My skimmer is an Aquamedic model, not sure of the model number but
I have found it to be excellent.
<<ok>>
The pump for the return is a Dolphin 3000gph.  I have been toying around with various ideas to try to improve on the refugium because it's not doing what it is supposed to do which is act primarily as a nitrate reducer.
<<I see...>>
In talking to various people, I came across an idea that intrigued me but have not been able to verify it.  In a nutshell, it uses a plenum (~2"tall) and has approximately 5-6" of sand on top.
<<You don't need the plenum...>>
The interesting part is that a pipe is run under the plenum and water is slowly pushed thru the sand and then returns to the main tank.
<<Hmm...ok>>
I have not been able to verify the effectiveness of this, and while I don't mind experimenting, I would prefer not to do anything that would have a truly detrimental affect.  Any ideas would be great.
<<I'm not familiar with this methodology...for my two cents, I would employ a simple lighted vegetable refugium with a 6" sugar-fine DSB and Chaetomorpha algae.  But if you're interested, do set up a test system as described, and let us know your findings.>>
L
<<Regards, E >>

Screen between sand layers?
Dear Crew:
Last Sunday I put sand (approx. 4'') in my new tank. I got so excited doing it that I forgot to place the mosquito screen between the layers (to prevent the sand sifters from disturbing the DSB) as I was going to :) I'm planning to have some sand-sifting snails and possibly a starfish in that tank. Should I take the sand out and start all over and if I don't will the snails and starfish defeat the purpose of the sand bed by turning it upside down? << I wouldn't worry about it.  With 4" you should be fine, they won't sift that far down. >>
Thank you very much for all your help.
<< Don't worry, just take it slow. >>
Peter
<<  Blundell  >>

Sand bed grain size...
Hi guys.
<Stephan>
Reading thru your pages I find that a lot of people set up their DSB with different grain size. Is this a new thing?
<Mmm, not really... folks have used single or mixed grain sizes...>
What is the real advantage over one size grain style. What two grain sizes (in or mm) would those be and how is it implemented or installed? Thanks for the clarification.  Sincerely, Stephan
<Mmm, let's see... the size of individual grains dictates the amount of surface area per cubic volume... so, smaller is better by and large... Mixed sizes tend to "clog, channel" more than single grain diameter... Depending on depth of the bed, composition, angularity... most folks settle on diameters in one millimeter nominal range... In actual practice... having more of all sizes, depths generally works out... that is, if anything, folks have too little of any given grain size, depth... Bob Fenner>

Upon What Bed do Sleeping Dogs Lie? Not a Deep Sand Bed!
Hi Guys
<<Marina-guy this morning hey.>>
Many thanks for the continuing support, on this great site. My question is related to deep sand Beds.
<<Ok.>>
I have been having problems getting my Nitrate down and I am setting up a refugium with a small 12x12x10 tank next to my main sump, this will be fed via a water supply from my old counter current skimmer. (have upgraded to a Turboflotor 1000) The water will come in to the tank then be skimmed and returned via the skimmer to the mains sump. Where the main pump will return it to the main tank.
My idea is to have around six inches of sand in this refugium to help as a de-nitrifiers.
<<Ok. With that much sand you'll not have much room for macroalgae, those are helpful as well.>>
What I am having problems getting my head around is what size of sand to use, I have spent a few hours sifting around 50kg of coral sand to give me 2 different types of sand.
<<NUH UH! Seriously? You've been sifting through the sand? That sounds like something I would do! <giggle> >>
Type 1 is very very fine, the sort you could easily make a sandcastle from, and looks like it compacts very easily. Type 2 is much more coarse and the grains are around 1-2mm, much more loose than Type 1. Which one would you suggest is the best to use?
<<Either one, really. I've seen DSBs that looked more like Mud Beds, and others that looked like really deep gravel. The larger size, Type II, will not present the same problems such as cloudiness, remaining in suspension upon disturbance, etc. Also, if it's crushed coral, we don't have to worry about sharp edges harming any detritivores you may wish to place in there. I don't know how large the main system is, but a box that's under 1'cu seems a little small for larger setups (55g and over). In any event, you really can use either one, or both. Generally, the larger the particle size, the deeper the bed will need to be. 
Start here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/deepsandbeds.htm and note the top photo shows a tank with a substrate that is clearly not just sand. Both types CAN and do work, my friend.>>
Best regards
Robbie
<<You're welcome. Marina>> 

Upon What (sand) Bed do Sleeping Dogs Lie? Part Deux and the Idiosyncratic Englishman
Hi Marina
<<Hello again Robbie.>>
Firstly my apologies for assuming my reply would be from one of the men folk on WWM, and not one of its fair maidens
<<Hee.. we fair wenches thank you!>>
Many thanks for the speedy reply.
<<You're very welcome. This was an easy one for me.>>
So I did not really need to sift the sand...
<<Nope.>>
...us Brits have some strange pastimes eh?
<<Yeah, and I hear you lot drink this thing called a "Shandy". You're not one of those shandy-drinkers, are you?>>
The main tank is 100 gall but has a 1.5 inch bed of crushed coral with around 90kg live rock, Have a suspicion that this is acting as a nutrient trap which is causing the prob.s with the Nitrates.
<<The live rock is really quite helpful in this regard, ASSUMING it is of good quality. Know that good live rock actually contains some anaerobic bacteria that further break down nitrate into nitrogen, et al. Also, the crushed coral does require a good deal of maintenance, debris/detritus accumulations are problematic. A sand bed in the display may be an option, since those 90 gallon tanks are rather tall.>>
I really just want the 'fuge just to help with Nitrates, if I go with the really fine sand then I could add a sand sifter star to this to keep it stirred?
<<Yes, and you don't have to have sand to help with nitrate reduction, though creating an anaerobic area is the idea here. Also, uptake of nitrogenous wastes/nutrients by Macroalgae helps prevent its buildup in the first place. The refugium is an excellent idea/move, but can be further expanded upon.>>
Thanks again for all the help. Robbie
<<You're quite welcome, and do read that link I sent you, along with the others. Also, find yourself reefs.org, Advanced Aquarist online magazine, as well as Conscientious Aquarist online magazine on our site. Should be more helpful information there. Marina>>

Deep Sand Beds...Silica Sand? - 06/03/05
Hi, Home Depot has 30 mesh, which is fine grade material. It is made for sand blasting. The bag says silicone. Are these pellets safe and do-able for a deep sand bed?
<<Silica sand is very "do-able" for a deep sand bed.  Just be aware you won't get any buffering capacity as with aragonite, nor is it as soft/easy on the skin of burrowing creatures.>>
Thanks, Dan.
<<Welcome, Eric R.>>

Deep Sand Beds? #2 - 06/03/05
Hi, I understand that the stuff I can buy at Home Depot is silica sand.  For a 100 gallon tall, how deep does it need to be to be effective?
<<Same as if it were a 20 tall...4" minimum, though I recommend 6".>>
Thanks, Dan.
<<Welcome, Eric R.>>

Using a DSB and LR
Hello!
<Hi there>
I have not purchased my tank yet as I have been researching the different filtration setups. Since my budget is very small, when I came across the DSB method I thought it would be more economical in the long run (since there is a cost to replace filter media and electricity costs.) However, the more I have read into it I began to realize that as with all things in saltwater aquaria...there is not one way to do it.
<Ah, yes...>
I did my research, but i still have questions. I am thinking that I should do a deep sand bed (mine will be 5 inches to accommodate a jawfish which I intend to purchase at a later time) without a plenum on the bare glass of the 29 gallon  tank. I have used a sand bed calculator and found that I will need 73 pounds of sand. Some aquarists recommend using 50% live sand. 25% crushed coral, and 25% crushed shells. Another aquarist said in the Aquarium Fish magazine that the coral and shells would be too large and coarse for the delicate organisms (such as worms)
<Mmm, no>
to move in the substrate without injury. I also think that the coarser substrate would damage my future jawfish.
<Again, not... Opistognathids dig about, move the larger bits where they want... in captivity, the wild>
This same aquarist suggested using 10% of my tanks total volume in pounds should be live sand. This completely confuses me--how can the volume (gallons) turn into the mass of the sand (pounds)?
<Just a rule of thumb likely>
I would appreciate it greatly if you could tell me how much live sand to put in my future tank, and if not all 73 pounds, what other substrate I can use to fill up the level to 5 inches.
<I would just buy/use five, perhaps ten pounds of actual LS... the rest will be inoculated sufficiently hence>
Please keep in mind that my budget is very small. Speaking of my small budget, I am interested in purchasing live rock to aid in filtration, to beautify my tank and so I can later have coral and anemones. I have read that I need one pound per gallon of live rock. In my area that runs about 200 dollars. (for the 29 gallon tank) I am hoping that I either do not need that much because of the DSB or that I can add it ten pounds at a time.
<Don't need that much, can add a bit at a time... best of course to re-cure outside the system>
I am also thinking I will definitely need a protein skimmer, but perhaps with this filtration system I don't?
<A useful tool... you can try it without... more expense in the long haul in synthetic water... to maintain quality>
Also when I place LR in the tank wouldn't I need to put it right on the glass bottom so it doesn't fall and crush my fish?
<Mmm, no... not really... Place the larger pieces first, securely mount smaller on top... as the DSB dissolves, gets tunneled about all should settle a bit w/o falling>
So then would I put the live sand in afterward around the live rock? Or is it okay for the LR to be on top of 5 inches of sand?
<The latter>
I know these are a lot of questions, but with all my research I have not found a better place to get a straight forward answer. Thank you very much for your help and time!
Jennifer
<Glad to share... keep investigating, sorting through your possibilities, choices. You'll do fine. Bob Fenner>

DSB Questions - 08/26/05
I have been reading quite a lot of your information on DSBs.
Because of your information I have decided to go with a DSB for filtration on my 90g reef tank.
<<Super!  I'm a DSB fan myself.>>
My proposed setup is a 30g with 3 separate compartments. The first is the stable water level where the skimmer goes 10"X12", the second is the refugium area, 21"X12"X14"deep, and the last area is for the over flow with mechanical filter and a small portion of bioballs then to the return pump.  My plan is to illuminate the refugium area counter to the main tank 14 hours a day with 40 watts of PC lighting.
<<Sounds good>>
The 4" DSB will be filled with macroalgae and detritivores.  Flow rate is directly proportional to the return of the tank, I have a 1300 gph pump on the return.  Do you have any suggestions or modifications to this set up?
<<It looks like you have things well in hand.>>
In your FAQ's I have read that DSBs should be installed properly and proper maintenance.  What is the proper installation and the proper maintenance that you are referring to?
<<Well Dallas, proper installation would be to use the correct grain size at the correct depth.  My preference is sugar-fine aragonite at a minimum depth of 4 inches (six is better).  The larger the grain-size, the deeper the bed.  Maintenance refers to high water flow...high water flow keeps detritus in suspension and out of the sand bed.>>
Thanks for all of your help.
Dallas
<<Always a pleasure, EricR>>

Getting In Deep! (Deep Sand Bed Implementation)
Love your web site. Talk about a plethora of useful information!
<Glad to hear that! Scott F. with you today!>
I'm setting up a 180 gallon marine fish/reef aquarium and am thinking about using a 4" depth DSB/1 or 2" plenum (are my numbers correct?) filtration system in a 55 gallon aquarium I'll be using for the DSB and sump.  I'm concerned whether other filtration is required.  I'm also considering skipping the sump and may set up the 180 as a self contained DSB system unless you can tell me why I should use a sump).
<Well, in addition to adding water volume to your system, a sump will provide you a "nerve center" to process system water, by utilizing chemical filtration media, mechanical media (such as pads or filter bags), macroalgae for nutrient export (in a lighted section of the sump, etc. You can also house equipment there, such as protein skimmers, probes, heaters, etc.>
In either case, once the DSB is functioning, will I need any kind of filters, such as a particulate prefilter, protein skimmer, bio ball-type filter, etc?
<Yes, in my opinion, you will. A protein skimmer is an absolutely essential piece of equipment, providing a "first line of defense" against the accumulation of organics. I would not use bioballs in your filtration system, as they will actually accumulate the very substance (nitrate) that a DSB excels at removing.>
I'm also wondering how much water flow (throughput) I should plan for the DSB sump or standalone 180 gallon DSB tank?
<Well, in the main tank, it really depends on the types of animals you intend to keep. If you are looking at a hardcore SPS setup, 10-20 turnovers per hour is minimum. You can tee off some of the flow to your remote DSB, or use any number of different configurations. Do check out the DIY site ozreef.org for lots of ideas on sump systems and designs...>
Can the DSB sump pump be used as the only circulation source for the main tank in a reef setup, or is the DSB meant to be a trickle type, meaning an additional pump is required for main tank circulation?
<Again- no hard and fast rule here. Ideally, it would be cool if you could have the remote DSB as a "supplement" to your main sump, in order to get the best of both worlds.>
Is detritus vacuuming required in the main tank in either case? Thanks, Dan Kelley
<I would not do any vacuuming other than the first half an inch or so, which will avoid disrupting the processes occurring in the DSB. You can read a lot about the many options that you have right here on the WWM site! Have fun with the research, and enjoy setting up your system! Good luck! Regards, Scott F>

10 in depth of water 2/12/04
I have s quick question, If my tank is only 10in deep can I use SO fluorescents (of the appropriate temp), changed regularly, in conjunction with T5's to light Euphyllia, Sarcophyton, Heliofungia, Pachyclavularia, Plerogyra, Catalaphyllia, Trachyphyllia? Could I possibly go to 12 in depth. Also, I will have an 11 inch sand base under them, and of course live rock in the tank so some corals could be placed higher if needs be.
All of the corals you listed will tolerate SO fluorescents with no problem, even if you increase the depth a bit.  I would recommend that you try to get four lamps per foot of tank width and cover the entire length (four lamps over a 55 or six over a 75, for example).>
Is the sand bed to deep? In the main tank I don't want the sand dissolving under the coral and lowering them, could you recommend a sugar fine sand that doesn't dissolve.
<I don't think 11" of sand is too deep, but after about 6" I don't think you will reap much additional benefit.  You also have to take into account the tradeoff of diminished water volume.  If the only goal is to get the corals closer to the light, then I wouldn't bother.  Any aragonite based sand will dissolve.  Silica sand will not dissolve, but it's use is controversial.>
I will be using Aragamax in the sump to help with buffing as well as a calcium reactor. Finally, water changes are very important and I do them frequently but as many people know what ever you spend on your equipment initially pales in comparison to what you will ultimately spend in upkeep. I am trying to set up a system that meets all the animals needs but is cost effective over time. Since I do 25% water changes every week the expense of salt is killing me, any help in getting less expensive salt that will get the job done.
<I too believe in the importance of water changes, but unless you have tremendous input, 25% per month should be more than OK.  I can often find IO brand salt for about $10 per bag and less than $40 per 200gal bucket.  Getting any brand for any less than that will be a challenge.>
I know many people say just have better filtration, but I have an excellent protein skimmer etc., low contaminants, I have just found water changes help allot, maybe its diffusing all the things we can't test for like chemical warfare etc...I just don't want to stop using them as they have worked for me.  What do coral farmers do about the huge amount of salt they need for their systems? Thank you Greg
<Again, you have my agreement about the benefit, but you may get 90% of the benefit with half of the water changes.  Small amounts of regularly changed carbon will help too.  Any business with large systems simply buys salt in large quantities.  Since a large part of the cost is freight, buying in pallet quantities saves cost.  Also, some large commercial facilities re-use water, sending "used" water from SPS systems to soft coral, fish only or live rock systems for example.  Hope this helps.  Adam>

DSB Debate...
Hello,
<Hi there! Scott F. with you today!>
Hope all is well and a very big thank you for your help!
<Our pleasure, thanks!>
I have been reading through the DSB FAQs and I am now torn as to how I will be setting up my new 55 gal SPS reef.  I really don't want to go the deep sand route as can't find any play sand that I would feel comfortable using.  (Yardright's website says that their play sand is NOT suitable for aquarium use and Home Depot in this area is using play sand from a company called Bonsal.)   
<Well, you don't have to use Southdown or other play sand for a successful DSB. Most of the fine oolithic aragonitic products made for aquarium use are just perfect!>
Basically, the tank will have approximately 65-70 lbs of LR and my plan was to have a 3/4" - 1" live sand bed (Aragalive pink Fiji) and a HOT converted (no mud, using Aragalive oolithic) Ecosystem Refugium and skimmer.  Also, the tank will not have a large fish bio load (1 barnacle blenny, 3-4 damsels, snails and 2 peppermint shrimp). My question to you is:  Would my plan work or would the benefits of the DSB be far greater?
<I believe that the benefits of a DSB would be measurably better>
Again thanks for all of your help! Cheri
<Do consider a DSB for the benefits that you seek. it's not the only way to decrease nitrates and increase biodiversity, but it is certainly one of the best...Good luck! Regards, Scott F>

DSB Advice 2/22/04
Hi,
Long time listener, first time caller…
<Glad you finally picked up the phone!>
As a project, I’m looking at building a 2 level  sump with 2 DSBs, due to not having a large available foot print under my tank. Looking at the attached highly technical drawing (which is not to scale), the yellow is the DSBs, the brown is the skimmer (water comes in in this chamber), and the black being the Out pump back to the main tank. I intend to have live rock in there too. I have a few main concerns that I was hoping you could help me with:
1. Do you see any issues in the top DSB not being under too deep water. The top level may only have a few inches of water above the sand bed. Could this be a problem, could this increase the oxygen level in that area which will  affect growth of anaerobic bacteria? Should I make that DSB thicker?
<Not an issue at all.  A thin film of water flowing over the sand would be fine.  Oxygen diffusion is primarily limited by low water exchange within the sand, not the O2 concentration in the overlying water.  A DSB should be at least 3-4" deep, so as long as you meet this minimum, that is fine.>
2. What would be optimal flow rate of this sump?
<Hard to say, but more than a few hundred gph would probably disturb the sand quite a bit, especially in the upper layer.>
3. This there a problem with the skimmer being in the initial chamber that the water enters, again, will this add too much oxygen with affect anaerobic  bacteria? Should I move it so that an exit chamber has the skimmer?
<As stated above, this is little concern in terms of O2 concentration in the DSB's.  IMO, the physical location of the skimmer is completely a matter of convenience.>
4. and lastly, are there any general problems with the design as a whole? Am I wasting my time trying to make the top layer? The sump will be a tall 2ft tank, so the top layer may be 1ft long (minus skimmer chamber + room to set up Out pump).  I have an established tank which I don't want to touch.
<You never stated what size tank this was for.  If you're current tank is bare bottom or just has a thin layer of sand, you will probably see some of the benefits of a DSB from a bed with as little as 25% of the surface area of your display (for example 2ft^2 of DSB for a 2ftx4ft (8ft^2) tank).  More is better, but what you have proposed looks like a maintenance nightmare. If you really have you heart set on more area, I would consider removable trays to contain the sand.  I would stack the trays with spacers in the center of the sump, have water enter on one end, flow through the stack of trays to the other end where the pump would be located.  This way, you could unstack the trays for maintenance, you pump would not have to be set on sand (a sure way to destroy the pump), and you could have your increased surface area.  HTH. Adam>
Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

Sorting Through Sand (Sandbed Practices)
Hi Scott,
<Hello again!>
I have a couple more questions here.
<Sure>
1. For DSB, is the denitrification effect proportional with the depth of the sand? Or is the denitrification effect more proportional to its surface area?
<Well, there is some controversy as to how deep the sand bed depth must be to foster maximum denitrification processes. Some studies have indicated that natural denitrification can occur in the top half an inch or so of sand in natural reef environments, but in aquariums, we tend to recommend minimum depths of 3 inches for maximum performance. DSB methods have been proven for years, so the practice is well documented and successful for many hobbyists.>
2. The recommended DSB thickness is 3 inches. Does this 3 inches includes the thickness for the plenum?
<Plenums require strict adherence to sand depth and grain size (see sandbed advocate Bob Goemans' site,  saltcorner.com , for more on this technique) in order to function properly. The depth that we are referring to is for "static" (plenum-less) sandbeds.>
3. How thick should the plenum be?
<The standard recommended height of the plenum area should be 1 to 1 1/2 inches, usually created with eggcrate over some PVC pipe sections. A screen is placed over the plenum, and sand (about 2-4 mm in size) is placed over that screen at a depth of about two inches. Another layer of screen is placed over that sand (to help prevent detritivores from burrowing into the plenum area and disrupting the processes within). Sand is placed over this second screen at a depth of about 2 more inches. That's all there is to it! Of course, the processes involved are a bit more complex.>
4. Do I have to keep the plenum dark? In another words will the anaerobic bacteria be affected by light?
<Well, the plenum area does not let light in>
5. To the best of my adjustment and cleaning of airstone, I get only light brown tinted skimmate in my counter current skimmer, do I have to chuck away my skimmer? Or get a more powerful air pump?
<Could very well be the solution, if all other adjustments are not working>
6. If silicate sand are used, the are minerals leached to the water going to affect livestock's health directly? Or it is just causing algae bloom?
<Silicate is mainly a contributor to nuisance algae blooms>
7. Will changing 50/50 tube to pure 6500K or 10000K tube improve
coral/anemone photosynthesis?
<I prefer 10000k for functionality, but the 50/50's look better, IMO. wattage is very important. I tend to favor metal halide over fluorescents, as they provide optimum intensity for photosynthetic invertebrates>
Thanks sooooooooooooo much... :)
Wid
<My pleasure, Wid! regards, Scott F.>

Converting to DSB
>Dear Zen masters of the zoosphere:
>>Whoa.. how very.. "anime".  Greetings, grasshoppah.  
>I'm a newbie with a 9-wk old 30 gal. glass tank, 304 Fluval w/ bioballs,
PolyFilter, and phosphate traps, Seaclone skimmer, 96 w. combo fluorescent.  Current inhabitants include 3 damsels (1-1/2"), 2 perculas (2"), and 1 yellow tang (3").  All fish are doing very well and I don't intend adding any more.  I have one polyp that is dying due to algae overgrowth (I'm trying to bring it back through periodic cleaning), and a couple of pieces of so-called "live rock" purchased from my LFS, which actually turned out to be clumps of coral with algae on them.
>>Oof, you need some good live rock.  Also, 9 weeks is a bit soon for a noob as yourself to be housing inverts just yet.  Need to let things settle down a bit, first.
>All vitals seem good-- pH 8.3, sg 1.023-4, NH3 0, N02 0, N03 10 ppm-- except Ca (350 mg/L).
>>You're not housing any stonies, and a range of 350-400 is certainly acceptable in such a situation.  You don't really want it significantly higher than 400 unless you have high calcium demands in the system.
>Anyhow, here's my problem:  I want to establish a reef tank and add inverts.  I've had tremendous algae blooms which I am starting to get under control.
My substrate is ~ 1" crushed coral.  I'm thinking a comprehensive solution to my algae/calcium/biodiversity problem would be to add a 4" DSB using Southdown (now Oldcastle) Tropical Playsand, and then seeding it with the critter pack/macroalgae from IPSF.  Does this sound like a good strategy?
>>It does, but honestly at this point I would FIRST spend the time and money on the best quality live rock I could get a hold of.  Once you have *that*, you can install the DSB, maybe some macroalgae, and not worry about buying the critter pack (unless you really want to).
>If so, my questions to you are: 1.) the sandbags say Caribbean, sterilized, silicate free, and then down at the bottom "not recommended for aquarium use."  Is this just a sop to the aquarium sand mfrs. or are you aware of any deterrent additive they've put in the sand?
>>No deterrent, just a CYA kind of situation.  Silicate isn't going to cause much trouble anyway, but is sharp-edged, and many critters aren't appreciative.  It also does nothing to help with Ca levels or alkalinity.  
>2.) Placement: reading through your site I've seen recommendations for placing the sand directly in the tank, and, conversely, removing all stock and H20 and then placing the sand.  I really don't like option 2-- more work and more stress on fish IMHO.  But what do you think?  
>>Wet the sand, and either make a "director" with PVC tubing, or just load it up into a net or cup and gently pour where you want it.  Be prepared for the cloudiness, can last up to two weeks easily.  Have a turkey baster on hand to blow it off any inverts (though you're not quite ready for them).
>3.) I've had good success in our freshwater tank maintaining a 2" river sand bed covered with a coarser aggregate that allows for periodic vacuuming.  Would it be a good idea to remove the crushed coral, place the sand, and then place the coral back on top as a covering layer, or just go with the sand, or (as I saw in another post on your site), place the sand on top of the coral and let it sift through gradually?
>>Ah, definitely, just let it migrate.
>4.)) Finally-- how long after I add the sand should I wait before adding the critter pack?  
>>I'd wait till the cloudiness goes away, but then again, as I said before, I'd buy the live rock before installing the DSB.  That's where the real value is, in my honest opinion, and it will provide you with what you seek much more ably.. is that a word?  In any event, it will provide the biodiversity you seek and then some.  
>Many thanks.  Wyatt Evans, Washington NJ.
>>Many welcomes, hope this has helped.  Marina

Re: tank setup question--Ecosystem, DSB, live rock specifics
Hello and thanks for the reply.  I have some follow up questions regarding DSB.  You mention that I should read Ronald Shimek's articles--I actually had before I wrote you and his articles actually prompted me to rethink my DSB as it is not fine grain sand.   
I corresponded with him on Reef Central and he said that I could go dig up some marine/sand mud along the coast where I live (los Angeles) provided it is in an area with no/little pollution concerns (and to check local laws don't prohibit digging up sand).  What do you think about this?  << I wouldn't do it.  With all the money we spend on our tanks, I wouldn't skip corners on buying sand.  I really like the CaribSea products and would certainly just buy sand. >> He also recommended trying what he will do for his next tank--a blend of silicate sands. << This is common where I live, but I really don't like using silicate sand.  I see no advantages to it. >> The discussion is here: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=3064537#post3064537
Let me know what you think!  Thanks for all the advice!  << I think you will be much happier with the common crushed coral types of products.  Also, if something does go wrong you'll always be questioning the sand.  So to me, it is worth the piece of mind to just get good crushed coral from the beginning. >>
Saskia
<<  Adam B.  >>

Deep Sand Bed Questions
Thanks for the reply.<MikeD here again. You're very welcome>  When we were discussing the deep sand bed option you said you liked fine grade aragonite.  Do you mean don't put a deep sand bed in at all?<Aha! what we have here is a simple matter of miscommunication. "Deep Sand Bed" refers to the depth of the substrate as opposed to the makeup of the substrate. Aragonite or crushed limestone comes in many grades, ranging from coarse pebbles a 32nd of an inch across to very fine, looking and feeling like normal silica sand in consistency>  , or do you mean use the aragonite sand??<Yes, sand grade crushed aragonite>  How about a mix of the two 4" of the Southdown, 2" of the aragonite?<that would be fine, although the finer sand will eventually end up on the bottom as it will stratify.>  Or would it be better just to use a fine layer of the aragonite and forget about a deep sand bed (in the display tank)  I do like the look though of a deep sand bed, or am I asking for trouble with these large fish?<4" of very fine crushed aragonite IS a DSB or "deep sand bed". By using true silica sand, two problems are often encountered, 1) sand is silica based, thus inert and does nothing to assist in keeping your pH alkaline, and 2) it can pack down SO tightly that it even keeps water and oxygen out, Partially this allows for anaerobic bacterial action and can be good, but conversely, if organic matter gets buried it has the potential to form pockets of gas that end up being hydrogen sulfide, which can result in a bubble being released that can drop pH instantly PLUS is so deadly that a fish getting a whiff of it in the face can be killed even faster>
Getting back the my sump and live rock option...  If I was going to use 1.5#'s  of live rock per gallon for the 180 for filtration and not use a wet-dry filter I would then make a refugium with a deep sand bed in the sump as well.  But if I have to use the wet dry / and the live rock I would not have a refugium then.  Does that sound all right?<Sure. It's all a matter of choice and many use a refugium with a DSB and the LR placed on top of that. If lit, the LR then can grow macro-algae which can remove enormous amounts of nitrate from the water>  Pretty much what I'm debating is that I don't want to buy a $1,000 in live rock and then have to shell out $500 for a wet-dry<Understandable. Don't forget however, that you also have the option of using largely dead base rock (Honeycomb limestone is best) and some LR. Over time it ALL becomes LR and the time is often MUCH shorter than many realize. Many LFS don't mention this as it cuts down on profit tremendously>.  But if that's what I have to
do then so be it.  Let me know how all this sounds.<Does this help any?>  Thanks

Deep Sand Beds
>Hi Guys,
>>And a gal, Marina here.
>I just discovered your great web site. I'm upgrading from a 50 to 110 gal. reef tank. I plan on having a 5-6" deep sand bed. I've read about South Down play sand in your forums and none of the Home Depots on the west coast sell it. I've discovered at our local hardware supply a white sterilized play sand from San Juan Capistrano, CA.
>>Home of the famous swallows, and my favorite Mission.
>The sand is the sugar type which measures .2 to 1 mm in diameter. It's not from the Caribbean, but it's still from the ocean. Can you give me your pros and cons about using this type of sand?
Thanks in advance,  Dick
>>Well, not knowing what it's comprised of will make it a little difficult to give you best/worst case scenarios.  The reason we like Southdown is because it is quite similar in composition to Aragonite (calcareous, and IIRC oolitic as well).  Assuming it's been *very* well washed/cleaned, also calcareous in nature, and has no pollutants, then I would think that you should be able to use it as well.  Otherwise, your biggest concerns are those listed above.  Calcium content is another concern, not as great, but it is a terrific benefit garnered from using the other sands.  One way you might be able to determine very quickly if it's NOT calcareous is to pour a bit of vinegar on it.  If it fizzles, you know it's base/alkaline.  If it does nothing then you can eliminate the possibility that it's calcareous.  I do hope this helps, and best of luck.  Marina

Shifting Sands (Sand Bed Depth)
Thanks again for quick reply... :)
<My pleasure!>
I have the last DSB question.
I spent endless hours on WWM and nano-reef.com but only found conflicting opinions.
<About sand beds...really- you're kidding! LOL>
"3" min and 4" or more is better": I read some people saying this rule was based on using a relatively coarse grain size (2mm+).  So some think it you use "sugar fine" grade (0.2mm - 1.0mm), you achieve the same result with the half this amount (2 in.) because circulation within substrate is less thus less oxygen for the same depth.
<So many complex processes occurring in deep sand beds...>
For the same reason, some think 4"+ of "sugar fine" grade makes it easy to develop dangerous sulfur gas.  I think this same group of people mentioning Ron Shimek's article. Since you have more experience and read more on this topic, what is your opinion on this issue (half depth for sugar fine grade)? Thanks, Kevin
<I'm certainly not a marine scientist like "Dr. Ron", but I am a nuts-and-bolts kind of hobbyist. I have constructed and seen lots of sand beds, and I can say that even with the sugar sized oolithic aragonite, I think that you'd be well served with a 4 inch depth. I've never really experienced (or heard of anyone else experiencing) problems with hydrogen sulfide in a well-maintained DSB...With good husbandry and stocking, I think that the DSB is a great asset to any system! Regards, Scott F>

Shifting Sands (Pt. V)
Scott,
<Hello there!>
Thanks a lot as always!
<You're quite welcome!>
I think I am inclined to try DSB (4").  At least I can monitor it during and  a while after LR cycling to see it really helps with Nitrate.  Very appealing concept if it can lower nitrate/phosphate especially I want many things to low and stay low in small set up.  Dr. Ron says open sand surface is important with no LR on it.
<I agree with him on that...>
So it may seem as if Biowheel (which does not produce more nitrate than what is available in my tank) + DSB (reduce Nitrate) + very, very little LR (just enough to give hiding space for Clown and shrimp) might be the best option.  But I will still ditch the BioWheel (for more circulation) and go with about 5-7 lb of LR since LR seems to have some limited ability to help reduce Nitrate.
<Well stated, IMO...The Biowheel is not "bad"... I just think that good live rock can do as good a job at contributing to "biological filtration"...>
Even after 4" sand, it still leaves about 10" water column.   With 150 GPH eclipse filter and Aquaglobe PH, there should be plenty of flow in 10" water column.
<Should be nice!>
I am thinking I will not put in air stone.  Aquaglobe has a venturi. If it is quiet enough for my son's bedroom I will use it. Otherwise I will ditch it.
<Agreed...may be a bit noisy...Just break up the water surface a bit...you should be fine>
What's up with someone saying air stone in marine tank will lower PH?  I thought more air is good?  Does PH really go down if you have air stone in marine?
<Air stones drive off C02...Help oxygenate the water...I believe that the effect would be just the opposite>  
I will be sure to report my findings on both DSB and Aquaglobe PH.
<Please do!>
Thanks a lot. Kevin.
<Good luck, Kevin! Regards, Scott f>

Shifting Sands, Pt. VI (Or, "As The Nano Turns")
Thanks,
<A pleasure, as always!>
After I fired off the e-mail, I went to Dr. Ron's forum and your assessment is absolutely correct.  Dr. Ron considers even sugar fine grade a bit coarse and recommends 4+" of this stuff.  I am learning so much that my head spins....
<Yep- I know what you mean...Sooo many different views- sooo much info out there!>
As a nuts-and-bolt hobbyist who have constructed and seen lots of sand beds, would you still go with DSB in Eclipse 12 if you were in my shoes?  Have you seen successful 4" DSB (nice denitrification benefit and nitrification) in small tank like this?  
<I have, and it will definitely limit the water volume in such a tank...Really a tough call; one that is predicated on both your sense of aesthetics and functionality>
I read in one of the forum that Dr. Ron was against the use of DSB in small system (< 29 gal) saying it would not be efficient and may become detritus trap but the careful reading of the forum seemed to indicate that his opinion on small tank DSB was based on his theory and experience with larger system, not the first hand or even second hand experience with small system.  Theory is good, but real experience is also important in my opinion.  
<Yep...There are views out there that suggest that it will rob the tank of oxygen, function as a nutrient trap, grow algae, etc. Again- there seems to be more room for serious study on this topic. If you are so inclined, I'd give it a shot...>
On the side note:  I ordered Aquaglobe powerhead to put in my Eclipse.  You mentioned more circulation is good but had a concern about heat build up with PH. One nice feature of this is that transformer is NOT in the PH but is a part of the power plug.  So less heat issue.
<Very cool- literally and figuratively!>
It is also really tiny so little water displacement.  Nice features for nano....
<Absolutely!>
I do not know how reliable this PH is but I guess time will tell....
<Yep- the jury is still out on this one...Give it a shot, take careful notes on your experiences, and SHARE with your fellow enthusiasts! Good luck! Regards, Scott F>

Cycle Questions and DSB installation - 8/14/03
Hi All,
Tried this question yesterday and seems the response got lost. 
<I saw it and it is probably in one of the crew's inbox so you may get this answered twice. Unfortunately we don't have the bandwidth to just sit around and wait for email to come in. Being that we are all volunteers, we get a handful of email and go through it as soon as we get time from our jobs, kids, school, vacations in some cases, etc. Sorry for the delay, Sam. ;-) There are some emails further delayed than yours. =) In any event, let's get to it>  
Anyway, getting ready to cycle a new tank, but there seems to be different opinions and how. 
<Yes indeed>  
Some say lights on others off. 
<I like lights off during cycle with NO starter fish. Lights off because lights on with a high nutrient spike like ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate would be advantageous to algae growth. Just a few pieces of fish flake food or sinking pellets or something every few days.>  
Some say skim others no. 
<I believe most, if not all of us here at wetwebmedia, would employ a skimmer during cycle for a great many reasons. One is that the tank will likely spike any way even while skimming. The skimmer is more of a chemical filter, taking out chemical constituents out of the water>  
You get the picture. 
<Yes I do.> 
Suggest to me the most proper procedure and also when the DSB should be installed in this equation. 
<I would install the deep sand bed after I have placed my live rock. Place the live rock, then pour the sand around it. Be sure to add some sort of live sand from either a friend, store bought, or ordered from a great many fine online dealers. I would avoid the bagged "live sand" as your only source (OK to use, but doesn't have a supply of the many sand organisms (mostly bacterial forms)>
Thanks in advance.  Sam
<You're welcome - Paul>

DSB Screen or No? - 8/29/03
Hello Staff, (So I don't offend someone for the improper gender or name)
<no worries... most of us are confused at any rate>
I am going to start a tank with a DSB and would like to know what screen to use to separate the upper and lower "halves" of the sand bed. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You, Daniel
<no screen at all... I do not recommend mixing grains in a bed. Bob and I cover live sand at great length in our new book "Reef Invertebrates". The advantages and disadvantages systematically of each grain size and at various depths. The short story, however is that there is no significant advantage and arguably a disadvantage to NNR strategies when most aquarists do not make the bed deep enough in the first place (too often under 6"). Some folks say its best to mix grains to diversify the micro fauna. But that's what live rock and plankton refugiums are for (micro crustaceans). If you want to commit to a DSB... go for a static bed of fine (under 1mm) sugar sized sand at 4-6" min. IMO. Best of luck, Anthony>

- Deep Sand Bed Clarification -
Help!
I have a 60 gallon DAS tank that is over-run with undesirable algae growth. I can control the problem with weekly major water changes, although I know that I should only do smaller water changes to maintain the balances, etc.  The tank is got the front angle-cut ends 
|        |        |
\________/
Per the advice I received at the local store, we layered the sand bed with fine sand then with coarse sand to about 2-3 inches.  After reading some of the articles I know now that 2-3 inches is inadequate. <Yup... not really a 'deep' sand bed but a sand bed none-the-less.> Much of the sand in the front of the aquarium is hardened... I suppose from the see-saw effect of Kalk additions. <Yes, that would explain it.> I use a float switch with a 6 gallon source of fresh water/Kalk mixture to automatically keep the tank topped off.  I suppose I have been using too strong a dose. <Yeah, would separate these two.> Pump capacity is pretty much what you suggest... I have the filter pump that pulls through the weirs/protein skimmer and foam filter.  In addition to that I run with 4 Maxijet pumps at about 925 gallons/hours plus the pump that cycles through my chiller.  On top of all the sand, I have about 60-75 pounds of live rock.
As far as livestock goes, I have a branch of pink hammer corals, green hammer corals, torch corals, an open brain up on a rock (should be on the sand, right?), some xenia, plenty of mushrooms, a couple toadstool leathers, cabbage leather and a variety of button corals, etc.  We have a small assortment of fish, i.e. a medium brown Scopas tang, a maroon clown, a Pseudochromis, a blenny, a couple damsels, a sally light foot crab, a serpent star fish, a tuxedo urchin, and a good assortment of snails, and hermits.
First the DSB.  Will 3-4 inches of fine sand suffice? <Not really, need more than four inches to call it deep. At three to four inches, your sand bed will likely be a source of nitrates rather than eliminating them.> And do I need all the rock? <Yes.> I can only imagine that everywhere there are rocks, these places are "dead spots", as far as current goes? <Not entirely, especially if water is moving as you say... water will move through/in/around.> And what about the sand beneath them? <Should still harbor some life, although it's always best to try and get the rock sitting on the bottom of the tank, not just on sand.>
Do I have too much water current happening? <In my mind, there's no way in the practical sense to have too much circulation.>
And what do you recommend about topping off my system with the automatic top-off set up that I have? <Leave out the Kalkwasser, dose that separately.> Go to a 2-part calcium system and only top off with fresh water... no more Kalk? <Kalk is fine when used sensibly - in top off was an honest mistake that is easily corrected. Two part calcium additions would be better balanced, would be less likely to turn your sand bed to rock, but I think you've identified some other areas where you can change your practices and also eliminate other instabilities.>
And then, you say to stir the sand from time to time.  How deep should this stirring be? <As far down as possible.> Should the hose end vacuum be used to sink into the sand and deep vacuum? <I would not gravel vacuum a deep sand bed.> What about the sand bed behind and beneath the live rock? <Move the rock around every so often - six months or so.> So, something like sea cukes are safe and stir the sand enough? <Yes.> Any other creatures you would recommend?  And what brand of fine sand would you recommend? <Any that is fine enough.>
Your help/advice will be greatly appreciated.
<Cheers, J -- >

- Deep Sand Bed Clarification, Follow-up -
What, then, should be my minimum depth of sand? <Four to six inches. More would be better.> What brand/type of sand? <No brand preference. Any calcium-based substrate is fine. I'd go for a couple of grades - sugar-fine on the bottom, something a little more coarse above that, and something even more coarse above that to hold down those sugar-fine layers.> The fine "live sand" or do I need to add more critters to really make it live? <Anything bagged as live sand will have no 'critters' - any live rock you obtain should come with a good deal of live which will appear suddenly one day, several weeks after addition of the rock - these will make your sand 'live'.> And will all the current I have blow the sand? <That's why you need a layer of something heavy on the top.>
Thanks for your patience and thanks again for your advice.
Barry
<Cheers, J -- >

DSB substrate 12/9/03
Hi Bob or Anthony, I love your book! When is the next one out?
<kind thanks... and Vol. 2 (Reef Fishes) will be out in 2004. We hope to have it ready for late summer perhaps>
Is there anything in this hobby other than water which is not controversial?
<good point, although can you please define what you mean by "water" <G>?>
I am planning a DSB for a new 75 gal tank. I was planning on spending $$ for 200 lbs of aragonite until I read Dr. Shimek's papers on substrates. His opinion is that only the particle size (fine) matters and not the composition itself.
<there is merit to this belief IMO and I myself prefer sugar fine aragonite for most applications too (because most folks want/need nitrate control/support)>
I live in SW Fl and have beautiful calcite beach sand which he feels would be just as good.
<depends on what your perspective is. For nitrate control you will need more of it if it is more coarse... and subsequently need better water flow and sand stirring (you or creatures in the tank). And even if it is sugar fine, it will not contribute minerals as well (at all, nearly... none) as aragonite. Aragonite is much better in this category as it dissolves at a pH of still over 8.0... but calcite does not dissolve until the pH dips into the dangerous mid 7's on the pH scale>
He also states that aragonite will not be much of a buffering agent as it does not breakdown until the pH is much lower then it should be. What are your thoughts on this?
<I disagree on the latter. From what I've read in science and hobby literature, aragonite dissolves easily in still higher pH waters (over 8.0) and my practical experience with 48,000 lbs of this sand delivered for my coral farm and used over a decade supports this <G>. Seriously... the half life of sugar fine aragonite is a mere 18-24 months in most aquaria... meaning that your 6" bed will be about 3" deep after 2 years and have contributed so many useful minerals in the process>
Will I have the same results using the local sand assuming all other things are equal?
<good results but not the same. No worries, the mineral loss can be reckoned by more water changes and careful supplementation of your system with calcite instead>
Thank you for you respected opinions.
<thank you for caring to know them my friend... best of luck. Anthony>

DSB substrate II 12/9/03
Anthony, Wow, talk about a fast reply! You and the Crew are great!
<we aim to please... that and we have no social lives and sit by the computer all day. Oh, yeah... we write for a living. Phew... we are not total losers <G>>
The buffering question and at what pH is dissolves seems to be the major difference. But we all know it does dissolve, so those minerals must go somewhere!
<exactly... and many folks (myself included) have noticed that the need to supplement with Calcium and/or buffer is markedly decreased in such systems>
I lean more toward your explanation as you certainly have used
enough of it. I suppose in the overall scheme of things, the price of the aragonite is one of the least.
<yes... true. And it yields so many natural benefits>
I shall plunk down the $$ and buy some!
<have you heard about buying this same material from Home Depot Stores packaged as play sand (formerly South Down brand)?>
(you don't have stock in the sand mine do you? :))
<heehee...nope. Its a rule around here.... we take no free samples and as such can remain unbiased about recommendations/critiques>
Thanks again
<best regards, Anthony>

Deep Sand Beds 12/16/03
Happy Holidays to all:
A special holiday greeting to Anthony, who may recall my barking blue hippo tang's prognostications from last football season concerning the Steelers.
<heehee... I do recall>
Well, my tang has been as quiet as the snow that buried the Steelers yesterday! Sorry, Anthony, but if it is of any solace, I am sad to admit that I am a Giants fan...nuff said after last night's debacle.
<grumble, grumble>
I have read the article and FAQs regarding deep sand beds and find them fascinating. I apologize in advance for my stupidity, but I have learned that the only stupid question is the one that does not get asked. So here goes...
I have a 125G FO without live rock, wet/dry with skimmer, that has been operating for over four years. The nitrites are zero, but the nitrates consistently hover around 50. I was wondering the following:
<thanks to the wet/dry no doubt>
1) Are we talking about just plain old sand, or must the DSB consist of live sand?
<plain ole fine sand is fine. All will become "live" enough for NNR (natural nitrate reduction) in as little as two weeks>
If it is live sand, must the sand be quarantined to avoid disease?
<if so yes... but only a handful is needed for a good innoc>
If live sand, must a lighting be present to sustain its viability?
<none>
2) I would like to perhaps add the DSB to my sump. I will try and explain my sump configuration as best as possible. Water returns from the display tank and into a compartment that holds the protein skimmer. The water then flows to the left, over a filter pad. It then drips down into the compartment that contains the carbon bags and wet/dry media. >From there, it goes into a compartment that houses my Rio 2100 that returns the cleansed water back to the display tank.
I could probably make two sand beds. The first would be under the wet/dry media. That area is roughly 6" by 12", and could accommodate a 5" deep bed.
<a good depth>
The second bed would sit beneath the Rio 2100, which measures roughly 6" by 18". This area could also have 5" deep of sand.
<fine too>
Do you think that it would be beneficial to establish these two sand bed areas?
<it would not doubt help to reduce nitrates... but reducing your dependency on the wet/dry would be better... more live rock and more skimming>
Also, if so, would I need to place the Rio 2100 on some sort of support to ensure that it would not pump the sand into the display tank?
<yes... likely>
I appreciate your insight on what sounds like may be an effective way to reduce my nitrates. Thanks, Mitch
<best regards, Anthony>

Powerhead and DSB Question  4/6/03
Hi there!<Hey, Phil with ya this morning!>
Is two Maxi Jet 1200's in the back corners of a 29 gallon too much circulation for a tank that "will have" roughly 35-40 lbs of live rock, one Flame Angel, and miscellaneous crabs, shrimps, etc.?<I don't think so.  I'm really big into have a lot of flow in a tank.  If you read on WWM, you'll see that a high flow rate can help stop Cyano.  Which is a very good thing.>  or would two 900's be better.<The bigger the better, IMO>  Also, with this kind of circulation would I be better off with a DSB or stay with the 1" of CARIBSEA "Puka shells" I have now so as not to blow the sand around.<I like DSB's but I have CC in my 29g "reef" tank.  It does well, get's a little patch of Cyano every once and a while.  So I guess if you like the CC stick with it.  If not switch to sand.  As long as you don't have your powerheads pointing down you shouldn't have a big problem with sand blowing.>  I like the sugar-sized sand look but people I've talked to say that it's hard to place the powerheads "out of sight" and keep from blowing the sand all over the place!<The rule is to place the heater AND powerheads in the tank before the live rock.  This way the powerheads are hidden from sight.> Thx in
advance, you guys are great!<Thanks for the kind words.  Let us know how the tank turns out!  Phil>

Re: Live rock and sand for a new tank
Don (you guys are awesome!!  Please no need for the apologies in delayed response time.  Your time and assistance are priceless.
<Thanks for your understanding.>
I have decided to go with a deep sand bed, and follow your recommendation below.  I know 4+ inches.  I will probably buy 5-10 lbs of live sand from dealer to seed.  Two questions:
<All very good>
1- What is this talk of a plenum now?  Do I need one or can I just lay the 4" of sand on the bottom?
<All my experience has been 'plenum less' and this has worked well for me. Here is a link to plenum FAQs on WWM http://www.wetwebmedia.com/plenumfaq2.htm>
2- What is it of this "Southdown" sand from Home Depot as a substrate?  I found it and have bought 150 lbs.  What a deal I received too.  Mismarked, received for $2.25/50 lbs.  It seems that this is a hot ticket item in the field as well according to the countless message boards and forums.  Is it recommended to use?
<You are a lucky man. A great way to setup a DSB inexpensively. I would highly recommend it and wished I could get it in my area. Since you have this available, I would make sure I had at least 4" depth across the entire sand bed.>
Kindest regards,
Louis Rizzo

AGA Overflows and DSB
Hi to everyone,
Love your site. Ditto to all the superlatives about you guys (and gals). Quick question.  I am currently setting up a Reef tank (65 gal. AGA with 2 corner overflows). The problem I came across is this: the AGA corner overflows have a row of inflow slits that are located only 3" above the tank bottom. Could I just keep the DSB at three inches around these openings or should I try to "block" them with some live rock. The goal obviously is to
have a 4-6" DSB. I'm sure I am not the only one who has come across this problem. Your opinion as to how best to handle these overflow slits would be greatly appreciated. Tom
<Ah yes, I would use some black silicone and seal those hummers off myself, but that's just me. You might want to jump over to WetWebFotos.com (the WWM forums) and search the forums for AGA overflow questions, you will likely see several pertaining to this issue. A good chance one of our AGA owners will chime in as well.
I wouldn't want my DSB making it's way inside my overflow boxes. Craig>

Nano No-No's?
Scott,
<Hi there!>
That was quick!  :)  Thank you very much for the quick reply.  I have some questions for clarification...
<Sure- ask away, my friend>
It seems you place more importance on DSB than live rock in this setup.  Does DSB serve dual functions (nitrification on upper layer and denitrification on lower layer)?  If that is true, then is 3" sand (instead of 4" for water volume issue) and 5 lb of live rock good combination (again water volume issue)?
<That's my take on it...In fact, make it over 3 inches for best results...>
I read 1 - 1.25 lb live rock per gallon of water as rule of thumb.  But if DSB can help in nitrification too, above combination maybe best considering the water volume issue or do I still need at least 7lb of live rock (after DSB, it would definitely hold less than 12 gal of water) in addition to 3" DSB?  Or would still you go for 4" sand and 5lb or 7lb live rock?
<I'd go for 4 inches of sand, and whatever amount of rock you choose...remembering, of course, the displacement that these materials will cause>
Grain size: I saw CaribSea aragonite.  The bag said 1 -2 mm grain size but it definitely looked more coarse than that and was not uniform size.  Grain size similar to sugar powder is the best size for DSB?
<I like the so-called "sugar fine" grade, which is from 0.2 mm-1.0 mm>
Critters:  You mentioned just a couple of snails.  You would not trust hermit crabs in the small set up (may try to eat shrimp or bother clowns)?  I think snails and shrimp will help with detritus (and some sand sifting with Nassarius or Bumble bee snails)
<I'd go for the Nassarius and maybe some Trochus or Strombus - Bumble Bees are cool to look at, but t hey don't do much for your system, IMO>
and was considering hermit crab for sand sifting, but if they will likely bother other creatures like Banded Coral Shrimp, I will forget about them.  I remember reading red legged ones are nicer than blue one or the opposite.
<Well, I love those little crabs, but they sometimes snack on the snails! Counterproductive in a small tank, if you ask me!>
Should I stir sand manually once a week?  Both upper and lower layers?
<If you are running 3 inches or less, you may want to stir the top layer once in a while. Personally, in a 4 inch bed, I just let it be>
Dumb question: The water inlet strainer for Eclipse pump.  I currently have it come as close to the bottom as possible.  I should do the same with DSB (as close
as possible to surface of sand) for better water circulation and allow it to suck in detritus?
<Actually, I'd probably trim the intake to get it just a bit farther off of the sand. In a tank this small, manual extraction (i.e. siphoning during H20 changes) of detritus is still the best way...>