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Fish lice and American freshwater eel (RMF, anything to add?)
8/28/17 Joining request and bait fish question
7/1/16 Cephalopholis fdg. SW issues from FW comets?
9/4/13 res strange behavior, feeders... 6/19/2013 Sick Oscars, feeders...
11/20/12 Marine Betta Experience, fdg., training live-food-only fishes
4/25/12
Dear WWM, I was wondering
6/21/10 Anti Feeder Fish Coalition
6/3/10 Re: Hoping to add GSP, foods, live fish as
foods, 3/10/10 Scales are missing on Red Tiger Oscars
2/1/2010 Re: scales are missing on Red Tiger Oscars,
hlth., nutr. -- 02/02/10 Fuzzy Dwarf Lionfish (RMF, are there
"safe" feeders for marines?)<Yes; of marine
origin.> 12/10/09 Wrasse diet... 12/20/06 <Hello, JustinN with you today> Is it ok for wrasses to eat guppies? <Feeder fish? No, I would not recommend this> And if is - is it ok for other fish - (tangs) - to eat them as well? <Tangs are herbivorous fish mostly -- I doubt they'd go after them> My wrasses sure seem to like them. <This may be so, but feeder fish are not a very good option for most any fish. Too many difficulties, too much chance for pathogen introduction, improper nutrition provision, and prepared foods are simply cheaper and more convenient.> Thank you for all your very helpful information! ML Jones <No problems, mate. Is what we're here for. Happy holidays! -JustinN> Feeder Blockage Syndrome in Lionfish - 11/04/06 Hello Mr. Fenner (and crew!), <Gisho! Was in Narita just 12 hours ago!> Long time reader of your wonderful book, the Conscientious Marine Aquarist (so much so that the pages are literally falling apart!). This is fantastic site, and let me say "thank you" to you and all the hardworking WWM crew for your efforts. <Welcome> Now to my question. In your book, you state that the feeding of live goldfish to lionfish contributes to feeder blockage syndrome. Is it the particular shape or density of the goldfishes' skulls that is the cause of the blocking of the pylorus and if so, how is a goldfishes' skull any different than that of their natural saltwater prey? <Mmm, don't exactly know what it is, but have dissected/necropsied a few lions that had apparently died with feeder goldfish impacted in their principal stomachs... Don't know if it's some chemical/physical difference in the chondros part of the minnows, or fat content...> Or is what I surmise correct; the fact that in their natural habitat, lionfish go relatively long periods between feedings and essentially overeat when being fed too many feeder goldfish at once by well-intended aquarists? <This is definitely a factor as well> Their digestive tracts are then not able to dissolve the skulls of the goldfish (as they are densest) and the skulls therefore essentially "pile up", and block the gastric outlet? <This is what I have observed... the skulls themselves "clogging" the gastric valve at the distal end of the fundus. Bob Fenner> Or is it a combination of both? <I do think it/this syndrome is a combination of these inputs. Bob Fenner> I tried to find the answer in your book, which I was unable to, and I searched the WWM site and could not find a definitive answer. Please advise. Thank you so much, Gisho Question about my sick Toadfish - PLEASE reply! 9/25/06 Good evening, <AM here now...> I'm a college freshman with an attachment to toadfish. <Batrachoidids... neat family of animals> I formerly lived on the east coast, where I participated in a marine science course and was introduced (quite by accident) to the species. <There are a few...> When I moved to the mid-west for college, toadfish number one (an oyster toad) <Likely Opsanus tau> went to the Baltimore Aquarium, and on my arrival out west, I discovered a petstore that had accidentally ordered an orange toadfish. I had missed the oyster toad greatly (despite the hell the silly little fish put me through) and decided to adopt the orange toad. This guy was in the petstore for about a year, during which time they were giving him freshwater feeders. <An exceedingly poor practice for all involved> When I had the oyster toad, I hand-fed him pieces of squid and shrimp - occasionally a small saltwater fish (a damsel or something) but had never given him freshwater fish. <Much better> Well, the orange toad has been a part of my life for about two and a half weeks...and I've been keeping to the same feeding regimen that the shop had him on. As of two days ago, he started looking a little off-color, and has stopped eating. Upon a few trips to pet stores in the area I learned that freshwater fish are very bad for saltwater fish to eat...and am rather worried about the toadfish now. <...> I bought a couple damsels for him and put them in his tank, but he's shown no interest. I've also bought a bag of frozen silversides for him - but he's been on live food for so long I have no idea if he'll ever warm up to the idea of a dead meal. Water stats: (If helpful) Salinity: 30, pH: 8.2 1.) Is there an all-around medication I can give him to help him recover? <Mmm, no> If so, what is it called and where can I find it? 2.) Is there anything else I can do to undo whatever damage a year's worth of freshwater PetSmart feeders has done him? <Wait, have patience, hope... may be symptomatic... some sort of fatty degeneration, a deficiency syndrome... even a physical/blockage...> 3.) Though I do have several years' saltwater fish care under my belt, any additional advice you could offer on the topic of toadfish (as it seems I'm permanently doomed to coexist with this animals!) would be most appreciated - I've noticed information on the internet is somewhat lacking. Thank you, ~ Julia a.k.a: The crazy toadfish caretaker. <Really just a matter of time going by... and your changing to more appropriate foodstuffs if this fish spontaneously remits. Bob Fenner> Another Solution for Finicky "Live-Only" Feeders - 05/11/06 comets and Lion fdg. f's Hi Crew, <<Howdy Ken!>> I would like to thank you for the great and vast amount of aquaria knowledge you offer to us less wizened, wet behind the ear (pun intended) keepers of the wild wet wonders. <<Quite welcome my friend...we enjoy what we do>> The following is not a question, but a suggestion for those having trouble weaning lionfish to prepared foods. <<Great!>> My Mama always taught me sharing is a two way affair. *grin* <<Indeed>> After many reading through your "feeding lionfish" FAQ's, I tried all of the prescribed methods of weaning my fuzzy dwarf off of live foods. He was a stubborn cuss and shied away from any feeding apparatus I attempted to put in the tank. As I am also an avid angler, the oh so obvious solution came to me in forehead slapping fashion. What I did was to cut off the business end of a fishing hook leaving only the straight shaft, (which I dulled up) and the hooks eye. The hook I used was large enough to supply weight to negate the currents in the tank. <<Ahh.. I see...hence the reason for not using something made of plastic/acrylic>> Attaching some light fishing line, I was ready to go, almost. I then impaled a whole krill from head to tail down the now harmless hook and I lowered the bait into the water and let it sink to bottom. I had enough line to stand back 6 feet from the tank as not to spook him. It only took a few wriggling tugs across the sandbed near the fuzzy little guy before I had my first hit. He didn't get the krill, but after a couple more twitches, lunch was served. <<Outstanding!>> I just thought I'd share this for anyone having troubles in the weaning process. I hope it works as well as it did for me. <<Thanks much for this Ken. This sounds like an excellent solution for particularly fussy/shy feeders. Do let us know how things progress/if the lion begins to take dead offerings without the "trickery">> Cheers, Ken <<Regards, EricR>> White worm-like thing inside of ghost shrimp 02/12/06 Good morning... I have found a disgusting thing in my ghost shrimp tank, I was getting ready to feed my lion fish some shrimp since it is only been in the tank for a few days and the only thing that I will eat is ghost shrimp which I feed shrimp, krill and squid with some dried seaweed sheets. <... train this fish... see WWM...> I can't find any information on these worms, are they bad for my lion or any other fish to eat? <Possibly> I don't want to make my fish sick with this parasite. I cut into one of the ghost shrimp and was able to pull the worm out completely, very gross but it is a worm that is for sure. I just want to know if I can keep feeding these shrimp to my fish or if I should throw out the whole lot of them and get them from some place else. Thanks for your time. <Best to feed marines... non-marine live foods... Bob Fenner> Accentuate The Positive, Eliminate The...Waste Products? Hi. <Hey there! Scott F. with you today!> I have a large Queen Trigger. I've been watching him for a while now. Is it normal for him to let out waste frequently? <If he has been eating a lot, all of that digestive product has to go somewhere!> He ate 2 goldfish earlier in the day, but he lets out waste, then about 5 minutes later he'll do it again, and so on...I think its been about 4 times so far within an hour...Thank You <Well, without getting too graphic, I'd just chalk it up to his eating habits. Like people, fish eliminate wastes as they metabolize foods. These eliminations can occur at any time; fishes can run into troubles, too, being constipated, etc. By the way, do consider using foods of "marine" origin, as goldfish really do not provide a complete nutrition package for marine fishes, and may be lacking in some essential fatty acids, etc. Unless you're seeing lots of long, stringy feces (possible indication of internal parasites or other problems), or if the fish is in distress, I'd not get too worked up about the fish's elimination habits. In fact, I'd be a lot more concerned if the fish had trouble eliminating waste! Hope this helps! Regards, Scott F.> Large FW Catfish fed feeders... I just found out you guys existed! Boy I could have used your help a long time ago. I didn't really have a question for ya, but wanted to tell you a story. I know you hear this a lot but I was also the victim of poor pet store knowledge (more than once) and ended up with a Pseudoplatystoma corruscans (shovelnose catfish). <Cool cat, but very large with a larger mouth> The guy told me at the store that at about 6 inches the little guy was pretty much full grown. <LOL> I know now that that was completely false. Anyway we kept the little fella in our 33 gallon and he is was one of my favorites in the tank. Loved to eat and has really unique patterns. We were planning on keeping him till he got closer to a foot long. Unfortunately he never made it that far, he inherited what I think was a bacterial disease from some feeder comets, <Please, Please, PLEASE! No feeders unless your willing to QT them. Garden worms and human seafood (shrimp, mussels, etc.) is far safer for these large cats.> even though we wouldn't have had him for very long I was really mad that he died so quickly (3 months). He quit moving around and had his feelers pulled back to his side. A usually quite knowledgeable fish keeper told us to just let it ride for a couple of days, thinking he might just be shedding, <Shedding??? Catfish don't shed there skin>> since he was the only one in the tank that was sick. He died the next morning. The other fish I was misinformed about is our fire eel. He lives in the same 33 gallon tank (don't worry I've treated the tank with Pimafix because whatever the catfish had it affected our leopard leaf fish, he got some body slime and cloudy eye but everyone is healthy now) and looking at your website I found out that he may get 2-4 feet long. The pet store told me he would be max a foot and a half. Right now he is just about a foot long and happily resides under a large piece of driftwood, coming out at night and to eat out of my hand, he loves frozen shrimp!<Great, safe food. But vary it somewhat.> I was wondering how long it will take for him to get too big for the tank and have to be given away. <Not really sure.> I'll miss him but it's not fair to cage him in such a small tank. <True> Will he really get 4 feet in captivity <possible, over 3 for sure.> or could we maybe get away with keeping him in a 100 gallon or more? <Would surely allow you to keep him far longer. Min. recommended size is around 80 gallons. Upgrade your plan to a 125 or 150 and you could have him for life.> Sorry to write you a novel. Pet stores should be forced to have accurately knowledgeable staff, the losers are the poor fish and pissed off purchasers. Don't rush to write me back, Amber <Don> Lionfish deaths resultant from goldfish feeding Bob, <Adam> Two quick things. Some people in my club were talking today about the dangers of feeding goldfish to lionfish because it blocks the digestive tract. Well, I searched WWM and found lots of info on the goldfish issue, but not the info I've heard you say before about what percent of lionfish die from this and the dangers to the lion. Can you give me a good link to that? Thanks <Don't have solid data, but I would "guess" a good percentage, perhaps 30-40 die directly or not so (fatty degeneration internally) from this practice... next in preponderance as a source of mortality, and important is "poor water quality" from this practice and being in too small volume, poor maintenance...> Also, we would still love to have you here in SLC this year. If a fall trip would work for you, that would be great. I plan to stay in touch during these summer months, and I'll see you at IMAC. <Will see you there, and we'll chat. Am pretty much done for 04... there are many good friends/associates here who might be willing to come out and give pitches. Would you be interested in having another of the WWM Crew make a presentation? Bob Fenner> Thanks, Adam Inadequacies of Feeder Goldfish - 04/03/2004 Hey, <Hi!> I have had my snowflake eel for about 1 month now and he loves his home, he always hides except for at night and when I feed him, <This is typical.> but my LFS told me to feed him small feeder goldfish or guppies. <Yikes!> Then I heard from someone that feeder goldfish are bad for it. <Very true.> Why would feeder goldfish be so bad for it? <Well, whether this is a saltwater snowflake or one of the brackish species that uses the same common name, goldfish (or even guppies!) are very inadequate. They do not provide proper nutrients that these animals need to survive, and the eel could end up with some severe (even deadly!) nutritional deficiencies. Moreover, the use of feeder fish, unless you breed and raise them yourself, is a surefire way to introduce disease to your healthy fish.> I mean, they eat fish and crustaceans in the wild anyway. <True, but you won't find 'em eating goldfish - not a whole lot of oceangoing goldies out there, lol! Good food options are fresh or frozen raw shrimp, prawn, and scallops from the supermarket - same stuff you'd cook and eat yourself. Oceanic fish meat would be fine as well. If you get these meats fresh, be sure to freeze them before feeding them to your eel, as that will very significantly reduce possibilities of introducing disease. Prepared meaty foods for saltwater fish, like Ocean Nutrition's "Formula One", are excellent choices, as well.> Please straighten this out for me, thanks. -Jeffery <Hope to have given some clarity. Please feel free to write back if you have any further questions! Wishing you well, -Sabrina> Live goldfish for saltwater aquaria - 3/28/04 Hey
again, me and some friends where contemplating on live feeder goldfish
I have a 12-13 inch snowflake eel and I feed him goldfish. Feeder Fish (a differing opinion) I have to say, good sir, that I disagree with your evaluation of feeding live fish. <Mmm, likely you're referring to my (Bob Fenner) piece on "feeder goldfish"... not live fish, foods per se> I have a number of counter points to your argument. Firstly, the cost issue, while the apparent up front cost of the feeders may seem steep, consider the larger fish whom eat ravenously and often. You will end up spending at least a similar amount on QUALITY frozen or freeze dried foods. <Define quality> I would never feed my fish dry food in the first place, mostly because I am raising a wild fish I caught myself as fry. I also plan to set up a holding tank for ordering a large quantity (100 to 144) feeders at a time. This will decrease the cost to effectively compete with any processed food. As far as nutrition is concerned, you should realize as a biology study that it is ridiculous to say that comets or any other feeder aren't nutritious. <Not ridiculous... a statement of fact. There have been "bomb calorimetry", other certified tests of these juvenile fishes make-up.> Any wild (or tank grown) predatory fish is designed by nature or the creator (whichever you prefer) to eat other fish. <Mmm, what about predators of/on invertebrates?> That said, logic tells us that live fish would be the most nutritious food for said fish. <I beg to differ, or just differ here... do you chase down and bite/swallow live prey yourself? There are downsides to such activity... the danger of injury from prey or the chase, parasites... the time it takes to gather enough material...> And unless you've taken comets and others to a FDA lab to be processed for nutritional information, I can't believe that nutrition would be a factor. I also use a freshwater vitamin and mineral supplement to help my fish and plants, at 5 or so dollars per bottle that lasts months, I could probably feed my fish dirt and still have them be healthy and vibrant. Along with feeders, which has turned my fish's health around, I feed it insects and earthworms as well which balances out his nutritional requirements. <Good for you> I do agree that feeding live fish does increase the risk of spreading disease and/or parasites, but it comes with the territory. I has to be expected and therefore avoided by inexperienced tank owners. Anyone who has the experience and time will keep their tank clean and neat and disease free regardless of introduced agents. As for behavior modification, please tell me you're not trying to make tame goldfish out or your predatory machines. That is just sad, a predatory fish should act like a predatory fish. It should try to eat other fish and chase off (perceived) competition. <By the same token, should "predatory fishes" be granted about the same amount of space they might experience in the wild? Be exposed to predators in turn?> You can only keep a very few other species with piranhas so why would you try to keep them in a community tank? You wouldn't and neither would anyone else, so why try to keep other predatory animals together? Your statement on you web site about other countries tank keeping habits just makes you sound arrogant. Any way, I agree that colored gravel is repulsive, but a natural color (light or dark) epoxy gravel is a safe useful and quality substrate. Burping ornaments should be outlawed (grin). But substrate filtration is the most underrated filtration there is. How does a creek or a lake or the ocean filter itself? It doesn't so to speak but the "substrate" acts as a buffer and a biological cleaner. <Plus... lots of water changing...> If the undergravel filter is setup to avoid dead spots and there is enough flow to actually create a (very small) current through the gravel (which there must be a good quantity of) you almost have no need for secondary filtration. That is the setup I use and my tank requires much less maintenance as far as water changes and water polishing. I do use a hanging power filter sparingly, but it is only for the charcoal chemical filtration. Any way that is all I have to say, and you probably don't care much to hear it, but I couldn't not say anything. Oh, and this isn't meant to be mean spirited or derogatory, just my converse opinion to yours. Good day sir. Justin Harper <Thank you for proffering your points of view and rationale to support them. Bob Fenner> Feeder Fish On The Menu? Hi, I've read the section on feeding FW feeders to SW fish (lionfish) & understand that its not good for the fishes health. <Not in the long run...> I was wondering if it was possible to breed mollies in SW & use them as feeders for the lion afterwards? Is that the same as using FW feeders though? After all the mollies would have lived in FW before hand? <Exactly. And I think it's more of a consideration from the standpoint of overall nutrition. It may be that saltwater fish have more appropriate levels of fats and oils for marine fish than freshwater fish would. In the end, it would be better to use something like frozen silversides instead of live feeders at all, to eliminate the potential of disease transmission from the feeders, Hope this clarifies a bit. Good luck! Regards, Scott F> Angler and "Feeder" fish I need some help! Two weeks ago I purchased a colored angler (bright red, about 6 inches long) from the local pet store. Everything was going great. He was eating at least two feeder fish per day. Yesterday when I got home, he was laying on his side, gasping and his color had faded. Shortly there after he passed. I took samples of my water to the pet store and they said that everything was ok. I have a 120 gal tank with a 55 gal ecosystem for filtration and a UV sterilizer. The other fish, small Longhorn Cow, small Lionfish, Stars and Stripes Puffer, Yellow Tang, Algae Blenny, small Banded Cat Shark, in my tank are doing fine and show no signs that anything is wrong. This is the second time I have purchased an angler with disastrous results. What do think could be the problem? Jim <Almost undoubtedly the "feeder fish". Please see here re: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/goldfshfd.htm not nutritious, and dangerous in composition and in terms of physical blockage. Bob Fenner> Re: new lionfish ?'s I have a 60 gallon hex set up with a small Volitans lionfish ( yes his house is going to get bigger He came with the tank) <Rad> He was eating live feeders ( aka) tuffies and Platies) I know these aren't feeder comets are they any better till I can get him off live food? <no better :-(> I've looked over the FAQ and I want this done as soon as possible. I want him on marine foods for health reasons. I've only had him a few days but how would you go about training them to eat dead food? <starve them.> I know it can be done...I've seen it. I bought a acrylic long skinny tube ( goes in undergravels powered by air) so I could make the food move...he checks it out...does the I'm going to eat dance...and swims away? <I thought I was the only one with an I'm going to eat dance.> Now I'm going to wait a few days of no feedings...and see if hunger takes over. I bought some smelts( yeah I know but they are shiny thought they'd appeal) some shell on shrimp...any other suggestions? I've done a lot of research and this what most say to do...but sometimes there's always that person out there with a fabulous trick...I've looked into ghost shrimp and the only place with them locally is almost 2 hours away. Yes I will make the drive if need be:-) any suggestions? <Try offering silversides, krill, shrimp, crabs, crickets... avoid oily and greasy foods. Try freezing some of the feeders and mixing them in with the live ones. Best Regards, Gage> Trisha Re: pantherfish (grouper) (feeding feeders) Happy New Years, We have purchased this fish about week ago, was not eating. We starting feeding it feeding goldfish, he or she love's it. Grouper is about 4 to 5" long. How many feeding goldfish would you feed it in day. Please reply. Thank You!!!!! <None. I would train this fish on to more appropriate fare ASAP. Goldfish are not good for it. Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/goldfshfd.htm Bob Fenner> "Killing him softly with feeders..." He or she will not seem to eat anything that is frozen but once a goldfish hits the water its gone in a second. Which to me point that it like live food. Since goldfish are bad what is a good substitute? (Feeder Guppy??) We have trying frozen Shrimp Brine, Marine Diet (Frozen Mixture) Please reply with substitute and how often it should be fed. Thanks, Rob <Try frozen/defrosted meaty foods like silversides, krill..., and formulated foods made for marine fishes. This will take time, to train an animal that indeed finds, eats live foods in the wild. Bob Fenner> Re: feeder fish article Thank you for your article on the "cons" of the use of feeder fish. It is a disgusting armchair sport. <Agreed, and eloquently put.> Even the ad on a website touting the joys of watching your fish chasing down their prey was a tribute to the sickness that the pet trade has deteriorated to in the US. I can only imagine the little goldfish, starved and shipped in the dark only to see the light for a few moments before being eaten. Today I met a person who had a killer fish, I presume piranha, that a little feeder swam up to quite innocently before being inhaled-he thought it was funny. I am also so saddened by the new 8 oz. globe holding a sad little Betta, fitted in a metal hoop and stuck in a house plant. That's supposed to be calming for humans?! <(Sigh)... sometimes hard to see progress for our species...> All I feel like doing is rescuing them all. Rita Roth St. Thomas, U.S. Virgin Islands <Ahh, was just visiting your island last month. Wish I was diving there now. Bob Fenner> "Feeder" Goldfish Mr. Fenner, <Mr. Craddock> Good Morning. I am currently reading your book "The Conscientious Marine Aquarist" and would like to further support some of your findings in the book. Before doing this though, let me say the book is an excellent source for all aquarists. I have already preordered the new book on invertebrates due out this spring. Thanks for all of the help. <Am sure you will enjoy, gain from it as well.> A section in your book discusses the feeding of live goldfish to the tank inhabitants. There are 2 statements made that I can personally attest to. The first being that the habit of feeding some species live fish (be it gold fish, guppies or, I would assume any live fish) does tend to condition the fish to exhibit this "live food" attitude toward other tank mates not intended for consumption. Approximately 15 years ago, I had a fish only saltwater tank. It was the old style undergravel filter with crushed coral. After some trial and error and a lot of reading and talking to as many people as I could, my tank finally settled down and flourished. I considered it a small (45 gallon tall), aggressive FO tank. Once established, I had a Long Spined Porcupinefish, sometimes sold as the Porcupine Puffer (Diodon holacanthus), a Snowflake (clouded) Moray Eel (Echidna nebulosa), a Clown Trigger (Balistoides conspicillum), a Hawaiian Tang (Zebrasoma flavescens)...and a few others. The Porcupinefish, when purchased from the LFS, was being fed live fish. Once I got it home and into the tank, it wouldn't eat anything but live fish. I finally broke down and purchased some gold fish to feed it. When it ate the Goldfish, some of the gills and blood came out of the gills of the Porcupinefish since they "crush" their food against the roof of their mouth. This put the eel into a feeding frenzy. Most articles I have read, state that the Snowflake eel is a non fish-eating species. When the Porcupinefish traversed the eel's path and with the eel obviously in a excited state, the eel (I would assume their eyesight is poor) <yes> went after the Porcupinefish's small tail fin and pulled the puffer into it's lair. Needless to say, the Porcupinefish puffed up and the eel let go. After this incident, the eel would compete with the Porcupinefish for the live food. It wasn't long after this that a friend brought me a Domino Damselfish and this fish did not last more than 5 minutes. The eel would typically stay hidden until I would feed the Porcupinefish a live fish. Once the scales and fluids would move through the porcupine's gills, the eel would become very active. This was very fun to watch although the eel never went after the Porcupinefish a second time. The other statement I can attest to is the statement of converting "live fish" eaters to a non-live diet. Shortly after the period mentioned above, we had a vacation planned. We would be gone for approximately 10 days and, being in college, so would everyone else that I might have asked to feed my fish in my absence. So I resorted to an automatic feeder. Knowing the situation of my Porcupinefish and also knowing that I could not put live fish in the feeder, I crossed my fingers and hoped that the Porcupinefish would eventually get hungry enough and eat the assortment of dried foods that I had combined in the cells of the feeder. When we returned home from our vacation, I was delighted to see all of my fish healthy and from that time on, all of the fish dined voraciously on readily available, store bought, dried and/or frozen food. I can only assume that the fasting period converted the Porcupinefish. I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for your help (through your knowledge in print) and to state that your books should be a staple in any aquarists library. Thanks Again and looking forward to your next book. J.T. Craddock <Thank you for your input and kind, encouraging words. Bob Fenner> Feeder Goldfish, fresh to marine to fresh disease transmission questions Evening WWM crew, I was talking to someone about the dangers of feeding FW feeders to SW predators and we came on kind of a tangential question. While we both agreed that feeders are a poor staple diet, how easily can a FW feeder carry diseases that could infect a SW fish? Obviously different protozoan parasites cause the more common diseases seen on FW fish versus SW fish, but what kinds of parasites, bacterial diseases, and parasitic diseases can bridge the salinity gap? <Good question... though I know of no "real scientific data, experimentation re the issue", there is seemingly endless "anecdotal evidence" that there are exceedingly few cases of disease (infectious or parasitic) in using freshwater foods for marine and vice versa... though many micro-organisms of the same or very similar species can/do make such transitions in salinity/density of waters... Especially when one considers the internal pathogens, it is surprising (to me) that there is not much (inappreciable) disease transmission. Much more to the issue in using "feeder goldfish" are fatty degeneration, gut blockage possibilities as sources of morbidity and mortality. My further take on using "feeders" as such for marine food can be found here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/goldfshfd.htm and you'll find our correspondence in the associated FAQs file linked there... tomorrow eve. Bob Fenner> Thanks! Jay Trigger and Puffer II Hi Bob, <Actually, this time and last time, you were "talking" to Steven Pro, one of the WWM crew members.> I realize that feeder goldfish isn't a natural food source for my Huma and trigger, however, will that somehow affect their health? <Yes, will be bad for their health. You can read more about it here http://www.wetwebmedia.com/goldfshfd.htm> I thought I was doing the right thing by feeding them live food versus frozen food. <Much easier to meet their dietary requirements with frozen foods.> I also occasionally feed them thawed mussels, shrimps, squid, and other marine variety seafood but it seemed to me that it was giving my puffer indigestion problems. Don't get me wrong, he'll eat anything, except for formula food. <Those are all good foods.> Another dumb thing that I did though was I threw in a freshwater crayfish. <Not dumb at all. Generally needed for the trigger and to a greater extent the puffer to wear down their teeth.> I'd read somewhere that it was good for the Huma to eat hard-shelled things to sharpen their teeth. My puffer ate most of the hard shell and had very bad indigestion for a couple days. I even though he was going to die cause he would float on his side! He's much better now and recovered. <A very strange occurrence, perhaps unrelated to eating the crayfish.> It seems that you're suggesting feeding them mostly frozen food as I've been doing above all the time. Anything live that I can buy occasionally that they'll like? <Ghost shrimp that have been acclimated to full strength seawater and fed a well round diet of marine origin are ok, but really not necessary.> Thanks for the reply. ~May <You are welcome. -Steven Pro> Trigger and Puffer Hi Bob, <Steven Pro this evening.> I have a 75g tank with a 4-5 inch Huma Huma trigger, a 4-5 inch stars n stripes puffer, a clown and 2 damsels. The Huma was the last fish that I introduced in the tank. In the beginning (for the first two months or so) everything seemed fine. I'd feed my Huma and puffer 1 large feeder and they'd both share it. <By feeder, I assume you mean feeder goldfish, an absolutely horrible food for any marine fish. Please try to wean both onto foods of saltwater origin. Frozen krill, clam, mussels, and mixed "formula" foods would all be good.> In fact my puffer got lazier and didn't even bother to go for the kill anymore. He'd let the Huma chase the feeder and then would join in on the feast afterwards. I'm wondering if this is normal. Even with the feeder swimming right by him would not cause the puffer to do anything. <Maybe he realized the goldfish was bad for him (a little joke to amuse myself).> Another concern is that now my Huma is really getting mean and has started to bite my puffer whenever he approaches the dead feeder Huma is feeding on. I suppose it could be because my puffer usually takes huge bites and can swallow almost the whole feeder, leaving Huma with nothing. I don't know what to do to stop the Huma from attacking my puffer who is really shy. <Putting them in separate tanks would surely work. Also, try to feed them a little more and at different ends of the tank.> Thanks, May <Have a nice evening. -Steven Pro> Feeder Goldfish (note: add links to subwebs) Dear WWM crew, I was just browsing (again!) the WWM site, and I found the Argument against Feeder Goldfish page ( http://www.wetwebmedia.com/goldfshfd.htm <http://www.wetwebmedia.com/goldfshfd.htm> ). I couldn't agree more. On that page, Bob wrote: "Try as I might I didn't run across any scientific work describing the chemical & physical content of "feeders". " I have long heard of thiaminase as being the primary problem with feeder golds. I know that Scott Michael is also against feeder golds, and in his book (and magazine articles in AFM) has listed the following source: Greig, R.A. and R.H. Gnaedinger. 1971. Occurrence of thiaminase in some common aquatic animals of the United States and Canada. U.S. Department of Commerce Special Scientific Report-Fisheries No. 631. I don't have access to the primary literature anymore (oh for the days when I could just go to the library on campus!), so I haven't read the journal article, but it sounds like it might be a good starting point. (I've also been unable to find this article online). I'm hoping you may have access to this article, and might be able to let us know if it supports the arguments against feeder golds...maybe you could ask Scott Michael for a copy (I'm assuming since you have some of his photos in CMA there must be some rapport) ? <Yes, we are friends and associates. I will send this note to Scotter, and thank you for your helping me and others on the "not-feeding-feeders" issue. Bob Fenner> Rich Paulhus Boston, MA PS. For some reason, the feeder gold page didn't seem to be listed site index (or at least in the sections I hunted in) but the google search worked fine. <Yikes... will check, add links. Thank you again.> Weaning a Lion off Feeder Fish Bob, <<Actually, JasonC filling in for Bob while he is away diving.>> I have come to you before on advice and you seem to be correct, so I am here again. <<sounds good.>> I got a Red Zebra Lionfish just the other day (about 5 inches long if that), and the pet store told me that he will eat live foods, flakes, plankton, and brine shrimp. <<this is your opportunity to say, "Oh really, can I see him eat flakes?" If they say they just fed him you can do one of two things - don't believe them OR say, "Cool, what time do you feed, and I'll come back tomorrow and watch." If they avoid your questions, well then you know the answer...>> I have put frozen brine shrimp in, and plankton, I have not seen him eat it for the most part with the exception of 1 or 2 bites. I have read that if he is being weaned off live fish, this can happen and when he gets hungry he will eat. <<true>> Can this fish be weaned off live stuff if that is what he was eating, or does this pet store not know what they are talking about? <<you can wean them off live, and you should wean them off live foods, but it will most likely take some time and patience.>> Or should I just give it time and when he gets hungry will he eat the frozen plankton floating around the tank? <<He's going to need more than plankton - these are meat eaters... you need to try some silversides and whole krill. I'd think these would get better results that brine shrimp or flakes. Do you think if we were talking about a regular lion [you know, the big cat] that we could get it excited about a bowl of corn-flakes? Probably not, but a bucket of chicken... that's another story.>> Joe <<Good luck, and do stay the course and get that lion eating something besides live feeder fish - you'll get to enjoy it for a long, long time. Cheers, J -- >> Curious about feeding Dear Mr. Fenner: <You got Steven Pro today.> I have a 125 gallon tank with a medium sized vol lionfish. I added a brown-banded bamboo sharked freshly hatched from an egg. I know that I shouldn't try to feed him for about 2-2.5 weeks but I am wondering whether live food or frozen food would be the best starter selection? <I would slowly acclimate ghost shrimp to full strength seawater and allow the shark to eat whenever he wishes.> The lionfish only eats live food, especially ghost shrimp. Is there any way to wean him off of live food and help him adapt to frozen? <Yes, but is going to be harder than normal because I think you should provide a constantly available food source for the shark initially. After the shark is eating well, keep the ghost shrimp separate. Then scoop them up in a net and put the net in the tank and allow the shrimp to scurry out of the net. Soon the Lionfish will associate the net with food and will approach the net as soon as it goes in the tank. Eventually, feeding directly out of the net. When that occurs, try putting something else in their like defrosted, frozen krill. Soon, he will eat anything that is in the net.> These are the only 2 fish I plan to keep in the tank and how do you feel about their compatibility? <There should be enough room for just the two of them.> Any advice will be greatly appreciated. Thanks so much for your time and patience in this matter. Sincerely, Matthew <You are welcome. -Steven Pro> Tiger Shovelnose Mr. Fenner, We have a large Tiger Shovelnose whose belly has been swollen for about a week now. We only feed him goldfish, but were afraid that he may have swallowed some rocks in his frenzy. <Maybe... more likely the goldfish themselves. Please read the following: http://wetwebmedia.com/goldfshfd.htm> What could it be and what can we do? Thank you for your help, Christine and Tony <Not much... the trauma of handling this Pimelodid catfish at this point is likely worse than just waiting, hoping. If the animal were small (let's say a foot or so in length) it might be advisable to give it a bath in Epsom salts and tank water (not in the main tank) or even administer vegetable oil down its buccal cavity (past the constriction to the rear) with a plastic pipette... Have seen these problems resolve w/o intervention many times before. Let's hope this one does as well. Do look into other foods. Bob Fenner> a question about feeders Hello! I am using feeder fish in an experiment I'm doing for my Botany class. I am gathering information to write a little bit of background info for my report. Can you tell me the genus and species name of comet feeder fish? Thank you, Anna <Carassius auratus... though some folks think this is a hybrid: C. auratus X C. goeblio. Bob Fenner, www.WetWebMedia.com> Question about Feeder Fish I keep several marine fish, and occasionally I do feed them a molly or a guppy. Now, I know that feeder goldfish can cause "gut problems" but is this also true for mollies and guppies? <Not nearly as much... due to size and make-up (feeder goldfish are very fatty... and cartilaginous/hard to digest). If fed occasionally, should be no problem. Bob Fenner> Lionfish (feeding, not) Bob it has been 8 days now and the lion still refuses to eat krill. Anotherwards he hasn't ate at all. I've tried silversides and he doesn't show to be interested. I've check out your web page on feeding lions feeders and I didn't find any info on how to get a lion off feeder fish. Bob what should I do with this lionfish? Maybe you could give me the exact address to the info on how to take a lion off feeders. Thank you please respond soon. <This may be a specimen that just won't be weaned off of live food, sad to say/state. If it were mine, I would offer live foods (even freshwater) for the meanwhile, and resume "shaking" dead/defrosted material on a "stick" when it is in fuller condition> Will copper kill lesions off parrot fish? <Much more likely to kill the fish instead... Do consider "taking both these specimens back" to your dealer if you can. Bob Fenner> Feeders I read your argument on feeder comets, I agree. I really don't think that the goldfish are a healthy source of energy. I do however think that shrimp are a good source of food for my lion. however you would be able to easily disprove me, am have no biology other than from my high school years. I just do physics. anyways I got about eight ghost shrimp today and I will feed my lion a peppermint or camelback shrimp every week or so. I don't overfeed and I keep the feeder shrimp healthy and well fed with a diverse diet. I indirectly feed my lion his veggies through the feeders. what do you think about that? he seems to be getting a little more aggressive and I have only gotten him to eat some thawed krill once. the ghost shrimp don't look any better than the comets but am hoping that the shells of the shrimp offer compounds not normally found in dry foods or comets. let me know if am wrong. thanks Jon Trowbridge <Sounds like a good game plan... and no worries with those shrimp shells... Lions even eat Hermit crabs w/o problems. Bob F. who used to teach H.S. Physics> Feeding Lions, feeders I have a medium sized lionfish
and I was told that it is not healthy to feed him goldfish because it
is not nutritious. So far, I'm having A LOT of trouble feeding the
lionfish frozen krill. Now, I'm feeding him a combination of a
goldfish or ghost shrimp every other day. My question is twofold: 1. Is
this combination of shrimp or goldfish fed every other day still
dangerous for the lionfish? <Possibly... I'd at least feed less
frequently... easy to kill these fishes with overfeeding... And do try
some other "frozen/defrosted" fish food species like
silversides, or cut fish you can buy for human consumption or
bait...> 2. I was theorizing feeding the goldfish more nutritious
food, maybe Spirulina rather than regular goldfish flakes; this in turn
would make nutritious goldfish for the lionfish. Does this theory have
any validity, or is this a mass collection of stupidity? <No to
supplementing the feeder's diets in attempt to make them more
suitable... problems lie in structure, make up and digestibility...
that can't be solved this way.> A prompt response would be
greatly appreciated. Mark <Bob Fenner, who apologizes for the late
response, been traveling... pls read the feeding feeders article stored
on the wetwebmedia.com site for more> |
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