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FAQs on Lymphocystis, Tumors, Viral Cysts... 2

Related Articles: Lymphocystis, Environmental Disease, Clownfish Disease,

Related FAQs: Viral Diseases 1, Aquatic Virology, & FAQs on Aquatic Virus Disease: Identification, Causes/Etiology, Cures/Medications, Case Histories: Non-Lymphocystis, Lymphocystis,

French Angel with Fin Rot or nodule disease(?)    2/19/18
I was hoping you could offer some advice. I am treating a French angel with a nasty case of what I first thought was fin rot.
<Mmm; nah>
It has eaten away most of its streamer and there are a few other nodules on his pectoral fins (see pics). When it first appeared I tried treating the fish with a combined Kanaplex and Metroplex mix. After the 5 days I saw no improvement. I did a 20% water change and switched to Maracyn Plus. I have just completed the 3rd treatment (day 1,3 and 5). I am seeing a small improvement - not sure if it's the Maracyn or the fact that I pulled the fish out and dabbed some iodine on the infection two days ago. Should I retreat with Maracyn Plus (after another water change)? If it's a virus (Lymphocystis?)
<Appears to be so; yes>
then I don't know that an antibiotic would do any good. Should I try something else.
I hate to keep throwing drugs at it.
<No antibiotic will help here. Please read the linked files at top here:
There is a Pearlscale butterfly in the same QT tank that shows no infection (they are together because they were purchased at the same time). The Pearlscale eats well. The French eats sparingly from time to time. The goby in the background is in another QT tank.
Mike Spizzirri
<I'd physically trim off the bit here... sharp scissors. Daub with a bit of Mercurochrome, Merthiolate... with a Q-tip. Bob Fenner>

Lymph on Coral Beauty angelfish?     12/27/17
Crew! This fellow came in with a few other fish and he had some cotton on a dorsal ray and some minor damage on a pectoral fin. I did a FW/MB dip on everyone and put them all in QT. The other fish didn't develop any issues
and I moved everyone else to a holding tank. He's been eating and behaving just fine. The cotton went away after the dip and he's been healing. Now, 2 weeks later, the dorsal ray and pectoral fin look fine but this granule on
his caudal fin showed up. I'm thinking this is Lymphocystis and I'm wondering if there's any benefit to keeping him in QT after the 1 month mark (I have a Butterflyfish in my DT with Lymph). Also, do you recommend any immunosupportive treatments while in QT? Thank you!
<I do concur w/ your observation. To me, this looks almost certainly to be Lymphocystis. T'were it me/mine, I'd pinch off (with your finger and thumb, this bit, while enroute moving this fish to the main-display. And do what
you can to optimize nutrition and environment to help the fish fight off viral return. Bob Fenner>

Queen Angelfish growth        8/3/16
Hello. I just received a juvenile Queen Angelfish in the mail (ordered from live aquaria.com). I noticed it has a dark greyish growth at the top base of it's tail/end of dorsal fin.
<I see this in your pix>
It's dark colored, not pink. Could this by Lymph?
<Possibly... is a tumorous growth of some sort; could be viral; they do occur in other colors>
I've searched your website, but it mostly refers to pinkish or white growths. The fish is behaving fine, swimming around and eating.
Should I be concerned?
<Mmm; not really; no. In that "concern" will do nothing and that this growth is not likely "very debilitating">
Please advise.[image: Inline image 3][image: Inline image 2][image: Inline image 1]
Thank you for your time and your wonderful website! The wealth of information has helped me immensely!
<You might consider excising this material (with a sharp blade), w/ or w/o anesthetic... or placing a cleaner organisms (perhaps a Lysmata sp. shrimp) in w/ this fish, in the hope that it might remove the material or speed on an immune response>
Also, I e-mailed several months ago about a porcupine puffer that had a cloudy eye with abrasions. I was concerned about bacterial infection, but you were right.... my 180 gallon tank had Ich! I put all of the fish in quarantine tanks and let my display tank run empty for 90 days. The puffer pulled through and is back in the display tank with it's pretty iridescent eyes! Thank you so much for your help.
<Do please keep us informed. Bob Fenner>

Chelmon Lymphocystis        4/8/15
Hey Bob, I've had a CBB in a 55 qt for about 6 days now. After nipping at live rock for 2 days he finally started eating vitamin soaked PE mysis.
He's been eating about 6-8 shrimp a day and is active. It did have a little "lymph" when I got it, but has gotten worse since.
<Quite common; and I would expedite this (and all Butterflyfishes) through quarantine... likely do a preventative dip/bath and place straight away. NOT to worry re the Lymph... easily defeated, not often spread...>

The water quality is great; 1.022 SG,
<Mmm; would keep more NSW, 1.025-6>

ammonia and nitrites at 0, nitrates at about 20 and it is the only fish in the tank. There is plenty of LR plus I'm running a Fluval 406 with ceramic media seeded from my main sump. I've been reading about possibly transferring him to the DT, but am nervous.
<Don't be>

It's only been 6 days, so it could still have ich theoretically, also the lymph will eventually explode and possibly spread.?
<No... see, READ on WWM re>
My 150g DT inhabitants are as follows... Black dogface puffer (7"), teardrop butterfly (4"), comet (6"), Flagtail Blanquillo (7"), orange tail filefish (4"), and a long nosed hawk (3").
The DT is extremely healthy and active and has been for about 2 years. Do you think I should be patient here, or risk transferring him.
<I would definitely do the latter>

Another worry of mine is that he'll have a lot of competition for food and may perish unless I keep him where he is to "fatten him up a bit".
Especially the file fish who is the fastest most voracious eater I've ever seen :) Any thoughts? Thanks!
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>

Yellow <sic> Coris <Halichoeres> Wrasse with Swollen Gill - Please Help!     11/12/13
Dear Mr. Fenner,
My name is Antonio and I have yellow Coris wrasse that has a gill issue. I posted it in the Fish Disease forum over at ReefCental.com
<http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2348310 >  and 3Reef.com
<http://www.3reef.com/forums/diseases/corisswrasse-severely-swollen-gill-150695.html > . One of the members (Newsmyrna80) on reefcental.com suggested I bring this to your attention.
My yellow Coris Wrasse has developed a swollen gill. He started showing signs of trouble with the gill a few weeks ago, but I left him in place since at the time, it was very minor and he had no other outward signs of discomfort. His eating and sleeping habits have remained normal (always a good eater), and his energy level has remained normal until a few days
<Mmm; not swollen per se; but some sort of tumorous growth coming out from the cavity>
Starting on Friday - he seemed a bit more lethargic than normal, but was still eating like he should. His gill had inflamed a considerable amount and is now pushing out of the side of his head.
I have already setup a hospital tank and moved him into it earlier today.
What I need help with is identifying the issue so I can make the best decisions on treating him. Below are some close up photos of his left gill, and a video of him swimming around.
<I would not treat... but maybe try one or more purposeful cleaner organisms at this juncture... Perhaps a Lysmata sp. shrimp for a first go>
I've shown this to a few other both online and at my LFS, and have received varying opinions from parasitic infection, tumor, fungus - but no solid consensus yet.
<... only can be discerned by necropsying the fish, area... with it dead or killed... Embedding, sectioning... histological exam.>
History of water parameters can be viewed on my AquaticLog profile here:
I'm sure I've left something out here, so if you have any questions, please
ask - thanks in advance.
Antonio Gutierrez
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>

Cotton Candy like growths on Clownfish    1/11/13
I have a clownfish that came in with what best I can describe as cotton candy like growths on it's dorsal fin (at the end), caudal fin, on the underside (in the pic they would be by pectoral fin), and then on it's side right after the second white stripe.
<I see this>
 I'm not quite sure what these are, and I know the picture is not the best. At first I thought it was the onset of Brooklynella,
<Mmm, no>
so I began doing daily 60 minute Formalin baths (I have done 3 so far) and then moving the fish to a new QT aquarium each time, as to avoid reinfection. Since I have not see any improvement, and the fish continues to eat, I am thinking I may have something else going on with her, maybe Lymphocystis?
<This would be/is my guess>
 Any help you can provide would be appreciated.
<Read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/virdisidf.htm
and the linked files above; and here:
the root "cause" of these viral incidences are said to be environmental ("water quality") and/or nutritional in nature...
Bob Fenner>
onyx-clownfish.jpg <https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwVcllKbJWA1d2Z3RFZLSzdsUzQ/edit>

Re: Ich treatment, need advice... Now Lymphocystis     1/7/13
Hi Bob,
I guess I've moved away from the original Ich topic that I originally wrote you about, but I believe I've identified the source of the growths on the Copper Band that I wrote about last. The picture in this thread on Reef Central shows identical, though far more severe growths to what's on my fish: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1829872
I guess it's Lymphocystis, and since I wrote you last it's gotten significantly worse. I've read through the Lymphocystis page on WWM, and just about anything else I could find online, and it looks to me like the only treatment for this is a low stress, low handled, high quality environment, basically the opposite of a QT system set up for the tank transfer method.
<Including the use of purposeful cleaners (organisms)>
 Also, my canister filter that was cycling in a bucket in the garage died at some point right before the final transfer, so I have been continuing to transfer my fish every three days while dosing PraziPro. I understand now that while I've pretty much eliminated all the parasites, I'm only making the Lymphocystis worse. I hate to knowingly introduce an incurable virus
<Mmm, they're everywhere... not to worry>
to my display tank, but to me it looks like the only way I can provide the environment necessary to beat back the disease is to transfer them all to the display tank, which has plenty of supplementary live foods, perfect water quality, and ample space & hiding places. I'm hoping that the excellent health of the other fish will prevent them from becoming infected, and that the CBB will recover once it's in a stable environment.
I'm also going to pick up a pair of cleaner shrimps tomorrow, and thoroughly bleach all my QT equipment so it doesn't infect the next batch of fish.
<See above>
So unless you see some giant red flag in my plan, I just wanted to say thank you for all your time and assistance, and I hope you had a very happy new years!
<I'd move all to the main/display. B>

Banggai Cardinalfish Iridovirus 2/13/12
Dear WWM Crew,
I am a research student with an interest in iridoviruses, and recently came
across a couple of postings from one of your members as follows (from "FAQs about Banggai Cardinalfish health/disease"
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/banggaidis.htm ):
"Infected Banggai Cardinals 8/23/11
After a numerous attempts to introduce Banggais to my display they all have died the same way. After a vigorous first week eating well ... they
suddenly stop eating, become lethargic. Final phase is with stringy feces and die one day after that. Tried every medication possible but nothing has worked. Looking in the www I found the article that seems to explain everything and it is getting very serious. They are infected with a non reversible disease... a time bomb: Iridovirus.
It seems that the problem is a Iridovirus witch has no cure that has infected the collection and distribution channels of this little fish.
Please read the article posted bellow and help us all Fish lovers to better understand this issue and try to reduce the wild caught doomed Cardinals.
Systemic Iridovirus infection in the Banggai Cardinalfish ...
<Thank you for sending this along. Hopefully folks will add this knowledge to the weight of purchasing locally/regionally cultured specimens of this species... and these will not in turn become like tank-bred Colisa lalia.
Bob Fenner>
Cardinal Banggai 8/24/11
It is me again. troubling with the Banggai virus.
This time my question is related to the correct temperature for these little ones.
Almost everyone mentions in the web mention a 75 F 82 F temp range BUT reading from the Banggai islands and technical reports they mention temps of 82 F to 89F ( 28 - 32 C )!
This is a huge difference... and let me tell you that the ones I had in quarantine tried to be near the thermostat for a reason... could it be?
<Not likely temperature, but habitat... Juveniles "hang" out amongst urchin spines, large anemones... Not in the open>
Is it possible that we all are very wrong about the temp they need to be in??
<Don't think so... I've been diving in their islands... the water is rarely more than 82 F.>
Thanks for your reply
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>"
Eric mentions "numerous attempts" but I was hoping to contact him for some further details (how many attempts, over what sort of time period, when (e.g.. month) fish were purchased, conditions under which the fish were kept etc). Is there any way in which you would be able to put me directly in contact with Eric?
<Unfortunately no. We don't retain or post others email addresses w/o their express desire>
Many thanks in advance for any assistance that you may be able to provide.
<If you'd like, do write back w/ contact info. on how Eric, others might contact you and we'll post. Bob Fenner>
Re: Banggai Cardinalfish Iridovirus â'¬â€œ 2/14/12

Dear WWM crew,
I am a research student with an interest in iridoviruses. I have recently come across a number of posts on the internet by hobbyists such as Eric's posting here at WWM "Infected Banggai Cardinals 8/23/11"
(http://www.wetwebmedia.com/banggaidis.htm ) describing their experiences with mortalities in Banggai Cardinalfish consistent with Iridovirus infection (with signs including inappetance, lethargy and particularly white stringy faeces).
I would be very interested in hearing from hobbyists such as Eric who have experienced such mortalities, as I am interested in some further details from these events (such as how many occasions this has occurred on, over what sort of time period, when the fish were purchased, conditions under which the fish were kept
etc). I can be contacted through iridovirus@hotmail.com
and would be most appreciative if you could post this on my behalf.
Many thanks for your assistance.
<And you Jeff. BobF>

Moorish Idol - parasite or fungus... Mmm, neither 12/18/11
Hi all, hoping to get some assistance with identifying the disease on my Moorish Idol.
<All righty>
I received the fish on 11/21/2011. (26 days ago). I immediately placed the fish in hypo-salinity at 1.008 Salinity. The fish had no sign of sickness, I just do it as a precaution. Anyway as with most Idol's it took about 5 days to start eating. It is eating with increasing enthusiasm every day. It's gut is starting to fill out nicely. There is however what looked initially like Ich and has developed into something more. It started off with some spots that looked to be under the skin and has increased in size to what is now outside of the skin. The first ones have gotten larger and looks like cauliflower.
<An apt description; this appears to be the environmental/viral condition called Lymphocystis. Please read here re: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/virdisidf.htm
and the linked files above>
The fish has never once rubbed/scratched or shown any sign of stress. I took some pictures tonight (attached) and the larger ones that looked like cauliflower almost looks like a grouping of small eggs. Let me know if you have an idea of what this is so I can appropriately treat.
Picture 3 parasite on the fin seems to be different then all the rest. It looks like cotton.
<This is likely "just environmental"... and the treatment for all is coming... placement in an optimized, stable world... of near seawater strength (concentration) and good nutrition. Bob Fenner>

Re: Moorish Idol - parasite or fungus 12/18/11
Thank you very much. :)
<Certainly welcome and congratulations on your Zanclus... DO please read over what we have archived on this species on WWM, and consider using Spectrum pellets as your staple here... BobF>

Yellow "growths" on Foxface fins? - 6/11/10
Hello WWM crew,
<Hi Shannon>
I'm hoping you guys can help me out with my very first saltwater fish, a Foxface,/ Siganus vulpinus/.
<Okey Dokey>
He's about 4 inches long and is now in my 20-gallon quarantine tank. I've noticed recently that there appears to
be a yellow growth or wart on the edges of one of his pectoral fins, and another on the tip of one of his dorsal spines. His color is good, he's alert, his breathing is steady and even, and he's eating well. I'm not sure what these growths could be--is it possibly Lymphocystis?
<Could be, yes>
Since I consider you fine folks the experts, I thought I'd ask you first before I consider any kind of treatment, plus I don't want to start putting chemicals in the quarantine tank and stress out the Foxface. Any help would, as always, be greatly appreciated.
<Ok, what has he been in contact with regarding other animal life recently?
This could be a sting/ injury. Or it could be Lympho like you say. Photo's are always helpful here, as from the information given it is impossible to give a definitive answer. I agree though, that you should not treat this animal with anything just yet>
Thanks in advance,
<No Problem>
Shannon O'Rourke
Old Bridge, NJ
<Simon, Cheddar, Somerset>

Re: Yellow "growths" on Foxface fins? 6/13/10
Hi Simon,
<Hello Shannon>
Thanks so much for your quick reply.
Ok, here's the best photo I could get of my Foxface, as he's so active!
<This is a good photo>
You can see the yellow growth on his pectoral fin and dorsal spine in the attached photo.
<Yes, this does look like Lymphocystis to me>
He's the only one in the quarantine tank right now, as he went right in there when I brought him home from the LFS.
<Well done>
At the store he was in a tank with some type of small wrasse, but I don't know which species it was. Hopefully the photo will help.
<Yes, this fish looks healthy to me, no treatment required here other than your good care and it should disappear on it's own in time>
Thanks again,
<Thank you>

Wart-like Growth on Ocellaris Clown... yes 2/27/09 Hi, <Simon> I've had a good look through all the information you've got on WWM but I can't come up with a positive diagnosis for my Clown. <I see> There's a little story about this that needs to be told to give you all the information. 5 weeks ago we bought a Blue Linkia Star, <Not usually hardy> a small Torch Coral and another mid sized coral and a small (tiny) Ocellaris Clown to attempt to pair with our larger Ocellaris. We don't have a QT tank yet (we really should bite the bullet and set one up, this experience has taught us a lesson), <A too-common one> so they all went into our main tank (after acclimatisation, etc). That night we noticed a small wart like growth coming out of the top of the center of the star. Over a period of a week the growth got larger and larger and eventually started to come out of the center of the base of the star as well. Our LFS has a 14 day guarantee on fish health, and were happy to take him back and replace with another (healthier) specimen. <... we'll see. Please read on WWM re Linckia...> The pairing of the Clowns went remarkably well, there was no fighting, biting or anything like that, they just immediately started hanging out, sleeping together and playing together. The original Ocellaris has now grown phenomenally; she had stopped growing for a few months before now. <Also typical> About a week after the star went back we noticed a similar wart-like growth starting to appear on the small Ocellaris just behind his central white stripe. I've attached a photo, its not a brilliant shot, but he's just so fast! The growth has slowly gotten bigger (now about 2mm in diameter), but so has the Clown. Today we noticed what may be another similar spot starting to grow near his tail. <I see this> He does not seem to be affected at all by the growth, he's playful, eating ravenously, generally friendly with the other fish and his colour is vibrant. There is no extra slime, stringy waste, or any other signs that he is unwell, so I can't reliably identify it as any of the common viruses, bacteria or fungi that affect Clowns. Any help you can give would be appreciated, they've become such a good pair it would be horrible to lose one (or two if its contagious). The tank is 188 litres <Too small for the star> with about 25kg of live rock. Its been established for 14 months and we've only lost one chromis (while on a month away from home) so far. The tank is stocked with two chromis, a coral goby, a two spot goby, the two Ocellaris Clowns, an urchin, the blue linkia, the torch coral, the other coral (can you identify it from the photo?) <Mmm, no. All I see is the Euphyllia> and various hitchhikers (brittle stars, bristle worms, a snail, two Chitons, etc.). We change 5-10% of the water every week and our tested levels are always stable and low. <Good> I hope you can help, Simon <This does appear to be a wart-like growth as you state... the bulk of which go by the term "Lymphocystis" in the hobby... there are no specific "treatments", but most all these "come and go", similar to "planter's warts" in humans... Better water quality, nutrition tend to ward off, heal faster. I would not "treat" the water, but might look into a purposeful cleaner organism... See WWM re. Bob Fenner>

Helppp! Lymph on wild-collected Clowns 05/19/08 I bought two tomato clown fish about three weeks ago (actually one is a cinnamon clown fish), their names are Cinnamon and Julius. I'm new at this salt water thing and I'm already learning a lot which I should have researched before I bought the tank. All our levels have been fine for pH, nitrite, nitrate, ammonia, and our SG and temperature. Anyways, when I bought my clowns, they looked okay in the store and then when we got them home we noticed a small white clump on Julius's bottom fin. <This is a non-specific viral complaint... Lymphocystis... environmentally-mediated...> It started to grow larger within a couple days so we started researching online. We added Melafix to our tank <... worthless... worse than worthless> and contacted the Wet Web Media Crew. We sent a picture but they couldn't diagnose it and they told us that Melafix doesn't work. Julius continued to get worse so we set up a quarantine tank (which I know we should have done first). We put the clown in the small quarantine tank and used Cuprix which is a chelated copper medicine. <Copper is not efficacious here either...> We also read that we could try to pull off some of the white clumps which we tried but he still got worse. Now he has the white clumps all over his fins and his gills and our other clown is beginning to get white clumps in his mouth to the point where he can't eat. He has also developed one tiny white spot on his skin. I have them both in quarantine now and I don't know what else to do. We bought a Picasso Trigger before we realized they were sick also and right now he is in our 75 gallon tank away from the clowns. They were all together for a little while so I hope he doesn't get sick too. I'm going to send a picture of the clown with the clumps on him and one of the clown with the clump in his mouth. Any help would really be appreciated. Thank you, Heather. <Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/viraldislymph.htm the linked files at top. Bob Fenner>
Lymphocystis - Chelmon rostratus 1/6/2008 Dear Crew, <Andy> Good morning. I'm sending you two separate messages, because they deal with separate issues and I know they might get sorted among different Crew members. <Ok> Here's the first! I purchased a Chelmon rostratus, not only because it has always been one of my favorite fishes but also because I have about 10 or 15 Aiptasia growing in my display that I'm hoping it will eat. The butterfly has been in my 30g QT for 7 days now. <I would move it to the main display> When I purchased it, I made sure it was eating at the LFS. For the first 2 days after I brought it home, it ate well--frozen Mysis and blood worms. After day 2, however, it stopped eating. I had done my research on the fish beforehand, so I knew these fish can be finicky eaters. So, I got on WWM to research what others have done in similar circumstances, and I discovered that what I am experiencing is not uncommon and that the advice has been to get some live rock in the QT to get the fish to graze the worms, etc. on the rock. It just so happened that I have a few pieces of LR that were not supporting other pieces of LR and that host some Aiptasia, so I decided to throw 2 pieces in the QT. I placed the first piece in (which had about 8 Aiptasia) and went back for the second. By the time I got back to the QT, all the Aiptasia were gone. I thought, "this could not be." Sure enough, though, this morning they are still gone (along with a very pretty orange feather duster that hiked in on the rock--oh well). The Chelmon has pretty much denuded my LR of any worms, etc. So . . . Thanks for the advice! <Welcome> ANYWAY, my question really relates to 2 masses on the tail and pectoral fin of my Chelmon, shown in the attached photos. Based on my research, I believe that the fish simply has Lymphocystis, but would like your concurrence. <I do agree> If so, I won't hesitate to put him in the display after the 3-4 week QT if all else goes well. If it's something else, then I'll proceed accordingly. <I would place this fish now... this is much more an "environmental" or stress condition than a type of pathogenic disease... Won't be "catching"...> Thanks as always for your time/help. Andy (Although I realize (think) that 15 Aiptasia is not an infestation by any stretch, I am trying to figure out why they are appearing. <Some cellular material must have been introduced at some point... likely on/with LR, but could be algae...> I have cut down feeding to once per day--usually frozen Mysis or blood works, or Formula 1 flake. I employ a 30g fuge with Chaeto, DSB and LR. I run Phosguard in the sump. I have tested my display water, my RO/DI water, and my storage water for phosphates and silicates--I have two test kits--a Seachem (color never matches test strip) and a Salifert (really hard to read!). No silicates are present. The Seachem kit shows 0.1 phosphates (or 0.01, can't remember the scale) in all three sources; the Salifert shows 0, so I'm befuddled). <No need or use... Bob Fenner>

Re: Lymphocystis - Chelmon rostratus 1/6/2008 Thanks, Bob. I presumed that everything needs a long QT period, but it seems that with the Copperband 8 days is enough as long as it isn't showing other signs of disease/reason to keep in QT? <... please re-read... "I would..."> I don't understand your last response, "no need or use" re my phosphate kits/readings. Would you mind explaining? Thanks again. <These readings for soluble PO4 are in agreement within the limitations of the test gear. B>

Lympho on Copperband butterfly 12/2/07 Hello, Thanks for all of the help in the past and the great site. I will try and keep this short. I have read through the Lympho FAQ's and couldn't find what I need. I received a copperband from LiveAquaria.com about 2 weeks ago, I put him in my 20 long quarantine and after a couple of days I noticed the white clumps developing on his fins. They have spread to his tail and even some on his body. He eats extremely well, only mysis though (I have noticed in the past that I only have luck getting Copperbands to eat "white" food, anything to this?) <Don't know... but interesting speculation> which I soak in Selcon. I have read that there is no direct cure for this and that good water quality and food are the best medicine, there is also a cleaner goby with him but I don't see him clean him though. My question is, would you keep him in quarantine until it goes away or would you put him in the display? <I would do the latter... This viral complaint is "not that infectious" and yet, won't begin to self-cure unless the Chelmon is "in a better place"> The only fish in the display are a tomato clown, lawnmower blenny, and very expensive juvenile chevron tang. <Oh! Just wrote a piece for this Ctenochaetus sp.... one of a few while am out in HI... "in spare time"...> Thanks for all of the help. Merry Christmas, Jeremy <I do hope the frenatus clown doesn't go after your Butterfly. Only experience will tell... do remove/float the clown in a plastic colander for a few days if apparently so. Cheers, BobF>

Re: Lympho on Copperband butterfly 12/18/07 Just wanted to let you know that the Copperband is looking great now. He is still eating and seems to be happy. I removed the tomato clown just in case, as I had seen it chasing the chevron and noticed the fins on the chevron looked "nipped". He is still eating great so I assume they will grow back. Any reason to think it was caused by anything else? <Mmm...> Only a few small crabs, lawnmower blenny, and butterfly with him in the tank. Looking forward to reading your article on the Chevy tang on the website. Have a great Christmas. Jeremy <Will download after it runs in print... have attached here for your perusal. Cheers, BobF>

Mixing medications... Lymph related to env. stress, Cu exp. 10/27/07 Hi <Hello there> I was hoping that you can help me figure out necessary treatment for my Juv. Queen Angel. I have 125 gallon that I have had up for the 18 months. I recently removed all my fish to a hospital tank and started treatment with CopperSafe for ick. I am 10 days into treatment and all fish seem to be responding well except the Queen Angel. She has kicked the ick but in the last couple of days she has showed signs of what appear to be cauliflower like white growth on the tips of her fins and mouth. <Ahh... likely the virally related condition Lymphocystis> I was wondering if this is environmental because of the CopperSafe. <Yes... very likely a contributor here> I have performed regular water changes making sure to replace the CopperSafe and am now wondering if I need to add an antibiotic or wait and then add carbon to remove the CopperSafe. <I would wait> I did perform a fresh water dip when I first noticed but feel that I don't want to add additional stress. She is eating well. Any advice is greatly appreciated. Thank you. Queen Angel Dad <Likely the Lymph will recede, disappear with the improved environment, return of the Holacanthus to its main display. Bolstering immune systems with supplements (e.g. BioVit)... HUFAs, AAs, Vitamins... is encouraged. Bob Fenner>

Lympho on coral beauty... reading 9//15/07 Hi crew! I've diagnosed my newly acquired coral beauty with lymphocystis. He's been in a QT for 3 weeks and the 2 spots came up 2 days after I brought him home. <As with warts, other viral growths, involvements, including with our own species... there is a stress factor...> I've been following the advice with doing water changes using my main tank water (every 3 days). I'm feeding him mysis shrimp with Kent's garlic also put live rock in the QT for munching. These spots still are not going away. <Mmm, won't with this treatment regimen...> I gotta laugh at trying to scratch these spots off <Spots? Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/lymphfaqs.htm and the next Related FAQs file linked above> ....there's no way....he's a feisty fish!!! Just trying to net him to put him in the QT made a mess! Question is: should I keep waiting for these to fall off or is he ok to put in the main tank? How long can he stay in the QT for the Lympho before it becomes detrimental to his overall health? Thank you for your time and knowledge!!! Jennifer <Read on my friend, read on. BobF>

Lympho ~ Tusk fish 8/15/07 Afternoon, <David> Just a quick question on Lympho as I did not see the answers in your FAQ's. My Harlequin Tuskfish originally had a small cauliflower like white growth on his left side fin and Bob and I agreed it was definitely Lympho. This was left alone and after about 3 weeks it fell off or was scraped off by the fish. Within about a week or so, the growth reoccurred in several small masses on the same fin and then again in two large clumps on the tailfin and small signs of growth along the side of the fish. Just got back from vacation for past 10 days to find pretty much all the major growths have fallen off or have been scraped off, but I can now see what appears to be even more smaller growths all over the back of the fish... Would you expect this? I'm worried it will keep coming back more and more until perhaps finally the gills are involved.... Thoughts? Suggestions? David Brynlund <These viral complaints can be persistent... as in humans... all other life... Many models of cancer, aging... relate their involvement... I would do your best to boost the "immune systems" of the host fish/es... HUFA, vitamin soaked foods, the occasional application of same to the water, along with iodide... See WWM re. Bob Fenner>

Re: Lympho ~ Tusk fish 8/15/07 Thanks for the quick response Bob... <Welcome> Better to treat the whole 200g tank or catch this fish again for quarantine? <No... leave in place... "it's the system Dave"> What's your experience been with that SeaChem Garlic additive along with the Focus or Mez... (I forget what it is...)?? <Not a fan... though I cook with quite often> From reading your info, it seems as though this virus is more common in clown fish?? <Somewhat, yes> In rearranging my tanks, would adding my two False Percula's to the same 200g tank as my Lymph'd Tuskfish be a bad decision??? <Mmm, no... though might get eaten> I've read two sources... One says it is contagious, the other indicated it wasn't? <Not very cross-species-wise> David Brynlund <RMF>

Need help pertaining to cowfish with cyst like balloon of skin 8/12/07 Hello Crew, I am looking for some help with my longhorn cowfish. I have read through much of your info online but haven't found anything specific to my situation yet. Your site has lots of great information and I'm sure I will be visiting your site for years to come. <That makes two... plus! of us> Now about the cowfish, to start with he is eating just fine, is active (especially at feeding time), and he is swimming just fine. About one week ago he developed a cyst like balloon of skin just in front of his left pectoral fin. <I see this...> I've taken several pictures of this and attached them. I have my quarantine take all setup and ready, but I am hesitant to move the cowfish without understanding more about his condition. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks! -Bryan <Well... appears to be a tumor of some sort... even directly viral... though such rapid onset is unusual... I would try a two-pronged approach of bolstering this fishs nutrition (via supplementation with vitamins, HUFA soaked foods), and a purposeful cleaner that it hopefully won't devour. My first choice/try would be an Elacatinus/Gobiosoma Goby or two... Let's see if these help reduce/eliminate this growth. Bob Fenner>

Lymphocystis? NNS? - 7/23/07 Hi Crew, <Young> This is my first time writing to you guys, but I've already benefited from your replies to other ppls questions many times, so thank you very much for your time! I have had these clownfish for more than a month and they started having small lumps growing on them, first in one... and then in the other. I should've quarantined the fish but since it they were the only fish in the tank (10g +10g sump), I skipped that process (I know huge mistake). Anyhow would like to confirm if this is lymphocystis or something else and what can I do about it. also is there anything I can do if its lymphocystis? <Does appear to be... and is large enough to likely be advantageous to pull off with your fingers (triggering immune response)... and adding a cleaner organism or two (my choice? A Lysmata species)> I mean I know there is no known treatment but just wondering if there is anything ppl out there have tried. Also should I separate the fishes, I mean will it be contagious from one fish to another say one gets well but then gets it again from the other or vice versa? Thanks once again, Kind regards, Young <Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/lymphfaqs.htm and the file linked above in the FAQs series. Bob Fenner>

Re: Lymphocystis? Non-native speaker? -- 07/24/07 Hi, Thanks for the quick response. what's <... are you a NNS? Please learn to/use spell/grammar checkers...> the procedure of pulling of with fingers, I mean I'm new to this and I cant imagine anyway in which I could do this without harming them. <This is posted where you were referred to. Read there> Also I do have 2 cleaner shrimps (Lysmata amboinensis) but they do not clean the fishes, actually the fishes don't let the shrimps clean them any idea what I can do? <Yes; read> the first tumor did go away but they keep getting more as you saw in the picture. Read the FAQ you send me to and Im doing what most ppl suggest, trying to keep good water quality and feeding them to maintain them healthy, should I do a fresh water dip? <... no...> Thanks once again, Regards,
<Keep reading... Bob Fenner>

Chrysurus angel sick... Mis-mix, Lymph - 7/23/07 Hello again Bob I wrote you about 2 weeks ago, had a horrible ich problem and you helped me out a ton... as it stands I only lost my queen angel.... sad she was my favorite... I transferred all but the leopard sharks and my lion fish <Mis-placed...> to a large 40x45x10 inch tub in my garage... I treated them with Cupramine and all my fish made dramatic improvements ASAP.... As for my sharks and lion I treated them in my display( I know you hate to hear this....) but I had no choice, I treated them with quinine sulfate from fishfarmacy.com and my lions infection cleared up in a week. The sharks never showed any signs but I wasn't taking any chances... I have since done several water changes 25% each and added charcoal to the sump to filter out the quinine sulfate. I returned all fish (imperator, passer, pair yellow banded maroon clowns, <... am becoming very tired of fixing your English... spaces between your sentences...> and the chrysurus angel, less live rock (in separate tank with no meds) back into display. Now my chrysurus angel is developing a bunch of what looks like fungus on its fins, I cannot tell if it is fungus or bacterial. I tried scraping it of but it wasn't coming off very easily and it started to bleed a little bit, so I returned it to tank and left him alone. His color was a bit off from the stress but he seems to be fine, eats very well and seems to be getting along with king dog imperator boss). any thoughts <... This is a clear case of Lymphocystis... etiology unknown but most are related to poor water quality, avitaminoses and overly-stressful conditions period. See WWM re. RMF> Kelly Craven

Re: chrysurus angel sick -- 07/24/07 Hello Bob thank you for your much appreciated help. I apologize for my poor typing, I was typing from my phone. <"This is the modern age"> I read the FAQ'S on lymphocystis, but could not find any info on whether it travels up the body of fish. <... through> The fins yes but its now on the fish body. I was wondering if it could be bacterial? Thank you again. <... keep reading... Viral. RMF>

Lymphocystis 6/30/07 Hi, <Dave> A quick one here. I read through your FAQ's on Lymphocystis and the consensus seems to keep water parameters optimum (which I do my best to do anyways) and let the virus run it's course. <This, along with bolstering nutrition, possibly using a purposeful cleaner organism, and maybe pulling off the bulk of the material (thinking this may "trigger" the animal's' immune system/s) is about "it"> I have a Harlequin Tuskfish that has been in quarantine with 2 Bannerfish for treating Crypt. I always thought the white spot on my Tuskfish was sand debris, etc. but while extensively reading through your website on parasites, etc and from reading Bob's book. it sounds identical to Lymph. <Appears to be this to me as well> Small white cauliflower like growth on the tip of one fin only. I've attached a link to an article I read on the subject. Certainly not challenging your general consensus, but the article seems to imply that this virus is somewhat infectious. <Mmm... is/are... just "to a degree"... depending on prevailing circumstances...> I already have the three fish in quarantine. Would you be of the opinion then that this should not spread to my Heni's? <Mmm, not likely> Once it disappears, what has been your experience of reoccurrence? <Can, does... once again... a lesson in the variability of our awareness more than a relative yes/no didactic understanding of the universe...> http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/management/Lawler_Lymphocystis.html As always, thank you for your comments and all your help previously.. Dave <Dang the torpedees, full-speed ahead... Focus on what you're trying to achieve Dave... Let this drive guide your consciousness, activity (here and everywhere); you'll do, are doing fine. BobF>

Re: Lymphocystis 6/30/07 Thanks for the response, hope you got my pictures in the subsequent email. <Yes, thanks. All posted in today's Daily FAQs> I did read something about pulling off the growth and the chance that it would leave somewhat of an open sore which would increase the chance of a reinfection of sort? Or the opportunity for something different to take effect? <Mmm, not likely... seems to stir recovery if anything> I was thinking potentially of leaving it until my quarantine period is up in 2 more weeks... introducing just the Heni's back to my main display... and then removing the growth while the Tusk is in isolation... <Or in transit better...> and then keep him quarantined for another 2 weeks? Would pulling the mass off and then introducing him to the main display be advised or shall I just do it now while he has 2 more weeks of quarantine? <Ah, yes... I would remove the material in moving this animal thus. RMF>

Lymph. again... 7/31/07 Man, I wish I was you.... Out diving. I'm writing you from my office 9 stories up in Calgary, Canada... Although it's a balmy 31oc here the past few weeks. <Nice!> Are you in Hawaii? Last summer, I had the opportunity to follow the first Snowflake Moray I'd ever seen in the wild. He was hunting in the shallows of Hanauma Bay, Oahu. Very intriguing to watch. <Am out on the Big Island with friends... Chris and Jor of WWM e.g.. And do see Echidna nebulosa quite often... along with many other "puhi" in the rocks> If you recall, I had also sent pictures and comments on my Harlequin Tusk fish and his cauliflower-like cottony growth on his fin (Lymphocystis??). You had suggested removing the growth with a fingernail when I was transporting him back from the quarantine tank he was in at the time... Back into my main display. He actually shed the fungus <Mmm, actually viral> a couple of days before I moved him and appeared to be 100% ok. Within a week of moving him into the main display, he now has smaller sized cottony clumps along the edge of one side fin. He has two large clump masses on his tail, and one small cluster forming along the upper edge of his body. He still swims around and feeds aggressively, however I can tell that unless he expects to be fed, he'd perhaps rather not swim as I have found him a few times sitting in the rockwork during daylight hours resting. There is no growths anywhere near his gills and he is breathing normally. I'm also leaving on vacation tomorrow for 10 days. Under the circumstances, would you recommend leaving him alone to see if he once again sheds the growths on his own? <I would not move this labrid> I'm not sure if I'd have the time to catch him in that tank to remove by hand... And even if I did, I think I'd want to be around to monitor him in case of problems occurring with potentially open sores??? <I would try bolstering its immune system... soaking foods in a HUFA/Vitamin mix... and adding Spectrum food/s here> Of note, the Bannerfish seem interested in nipping at the growths which is a good thing, but the Tusker darts away. Also of note, the Tusk fish is flashing the odd time... I guess I don't blame him... Anything to get rid of those little veggies growing off him. David Brynlund
<Please read re Lymphocystis... RMF>

Sick Clowns 07/28/03 Hello Crew, <Hi Amanda> I have had two TR true Percs in QT for almost three weeks. Yesterday I noticed the beginning of small bumps. It appears like ich but it is clear and very difficult to see. The spots are on the body below the front most dorsal, I cant see any spots on the fins. I started lowering sg today from 1.025 down to 1.022. Temp is at 80. I figure I will continue to lower the sg-but how low? Could this be bacterial or fungal? I have yet to read anything stating that ich can be clear, so I am leery of treatment based on that presumption. The fish are swimming and eating. Can you please advise appropriate treatment? Thank you for your help! Amanda <Ananda spotted this one in my box and has the following advice: "That sounds exactly like lymphocystis. QuickCure is supposed to help...according to the bottle. I started that treatment too late to save one of my fish, but if she gets to it early...." So, I would follow her advice and begin treatment now. Here's more to read: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/infectio.htm, and look for lymphocystis on the sites search engine, that'll bring up a lot more FAQs for you to read as well. Good luck, and our hopes are with you.>

Banggai Cardinal lip growth 5/7/07 Hello folks, I have 130gal FO tank a variety of compatible fish and most all seem to be happy and healthy. I have wet/dry filtration and skimmer and water quality is good. <Not useful... need real data> One of my Banggai Cardinals has a couple of strange looking growths on its lower lip. <Likely "lymphocystis"... a semi-strange environmental/nutritional/viral condition...> They look like warts and are similar in color to the fish. They do not look like anything I have been able to find on any site about fish diseases. The fish seems to be fine, it eats well, hangs out with Banggai #2 and chances the Banggai #3 off into hiding. None of the other 20 or so fish have any sign of any such growth. Any ideas? Thanks, David Austin <Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/lymphfaqs.htm and the linked FAQs files above. Bob Fenner>

Re: Banggai Cardinal lip growth -- 05/07/07 Bob and Crew, Thanks very much for the response and the great job you are doing. It is hard to imagine how you have the time and patience to deal with all of us. I think your suggestion of Lymphocystis is correct based on the articles and photos you referred me to. I tried removing the growths from the fish with no luck. So if he is not too traumatized by that effort perhaps the disease will run it's course and he will be okay. Meanwhile, it is back to working on water quality and good nutrition. Thanks again, David Austin <Thank you for your kind words. If there is room (and likely no predator problems) I do encourage you to add a purposeful cleaner organism as well... Perhaps a Lysmata species... will help clean off... and greatly reduce the element of stress... very important here. Bob Fenner>

Re: I looked everywhere! (But did you look here?) pt.3 2/22/07 Hi Graham, <Hello, I'm sorry for the delay, but... well, you know.> So here's the update on the situation I got the qt out and got the baby clowns in there. <Excellent!> I've been treating them with Instant Ocean's Lifeguard. << friendly_press_release.asp%3FdocumentID%3D211+Instant+Ocean+Lifeguard&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us High-tech...>> <I don't have any experience with this product yet, but the write-up looks good; non-antibacterial means good for the nitrifying bacteria..> I guess it's new it is supposed to help treat bacterial, fungal, viral, and parasitic diseases. My qt is a 30 g but I have it filled only half way. <?> The QT parameters are as follows pH 8.2, Ammonia: 0.25 ppm <!!! Water change now!>, Nitrite 0 ppm, Nitrate 0 ppm, and salinity: 1.023 ppt. <Would remind you that with a QT, especially a half-full one with little/no filtration to speak of, you will need to be performing large daily water changes to take the place of filtration.> The display tank's parameters are pH: 8.2, Ammonia 0 ppm, Nitrite 0 ppm, Nitrate 5.0 ppm, and salinity 1.022 ppt. I know the qt is bad, I'm planning on doing a partial water change tomorrow. <See above.> I think part of the problem is that I'm just using a sponge filter that I had let sit in my tank for 5 days and the fact that there's no live rock or sand in the qt and I guess I've been overfeeding them a bit as well. <All true...> I have noticed one of the other clowns has a similar white growth on the tip of its tail and a third one has a white cyst-looking think on its right pectoral fin that seems to be growing THROUGH his fin, it's protruding slightly on both sides of it, it does look similar to the other clowns' growths. <Would try FW-dips (Read WWM re) in addition to the QT, daily.> <<And I'd amend the pH-adjusted FW dips/baths with formalin and aeration>> I am beginning to think you were correct and that it is that lymphocystis since they are on day four of the medication (it's only supposed to be used for 5 days) and it seems that they are all getting it. I went back to that LFS and their siblings who are still at the store all seem to have this as well I'm thinking it's just genetic. <Not genetic, no. Just associated.> <<And like common models of such viral involvements, environmentally/nutritionally mediated>> I did purchase a skunk cleaner shrimp and acclimated him to the display tank so that once I do return them to it maybe he can pick the growth off them, if they'll let him. I did figure out a way to get pictures of them as they are all very very feisty and eating heartily still. <Very common with cystic infections...> I forgot my camcorder has the option to take still frames of video, so I grabbed some video of them and got the shots from that, it's not super clear but at least you can take a look at it now. Oh and for diet I read on the saltwaterfish forum about diseases and diet, hence the reason I thought a cleaner shrimp would help since someone on there had a percula with a similar problem. <Can be helpful. (Natural solution, no meds...)> So I have made them homemade fish food from a recipe on the site. It's a mixture of cuttlefish, clam, octopus, cooked mussel, scallop, and shrimp, ground up with kelp, chard, fresh garlic, and soaked in Kent's Zoecon. <Very good, will help them fight.> They've been on that and the flake food and frozen Hikari Mysis shrimp since Sunday. OH and to make matters worse I just saw today that my coral beauty seems to have an eye injury, I wasn't able to get her out of the display tank and into the qt with the clowns, I'm waiting on an order for one of those fish catcher things. <Have had repeated success treating eyes with FW-dips, and possible physical removal of parasite. You may find that the cloudiness will slough off in the lower salinity.> Anyhow it looks like she has two scratches across her cornea and she is acting quite neurotic, she keeps swimming up and down in the same corner of the tank, I'm not sure if it's bc of the injury or bc I finally got my light in today. The new light has 260 watts whereas the old one did as well however, the bulbs were about a year overdue for a change and it was also only 30" whereas the new one is 48" and actually fits the entire length of my tank. I have a picture of her cornea too, my bf thinks it could be fungal too. So if it is how and why am I having such a fungus problem??? :'( Thank you for all your help and input Graham, sorry this is so long winded I have attached the pics I hope they help. <Fungal... hmm. I wish I was a fish doctor. I need to see what I'm dealing with, and even then I don't have one method of treatment for each problem. I would recommend you treat for Lymph and consider Epsom salt for the angel after the FW-dip. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/epsomfaqs.htm. I am assuming you have read all the FAQs here about clowns and their associated problems, along with how to setup a QT. I think you're on the right track here, but the QT should be maintained with water changes more often than you suppose is enough. Remember: measurable ammonia is too much! I'm looking back, and noticing that I'm not that helpful here! I will CC this to Bob for review. I am very fatigued, but felt a sense of obligation to answer your Q's. I hope you find something useful here! -GrahamT> Shawn
<<I am in agreement with your stmt.s Graham. BobF>>

Questions regarding quarantine and lymphocystis 1/30/07 Hello again, I really appreciate all of the advice and dependable information. Actually my fish do too as they are alive and well. <Ah, good> I have two questions I need your advice on. First, I am going to close down my 75 gallon FOWLR and transfer a Niger Triggerfish, Assasi Triggerfish and a Tuskfish to a 125 gallon FOWLR tank. The 75 gallon had an ich outbreak about a year ago that I managed well and have not had a problem since. In treating the ich outbreak the tank remained in a fallow state for 30 days. Question 1 is do I need to quarantine and or dip the fish before transfer to the 125 gallon to manage the risk that there may be a low level of parasite activity that has not affected the fish? <I would do the dip/bath... FW, pH-adjusted... enroute to the new digs> These three fish will be joining a Kole Tang and a Flame Angel in the 125 gallon so I want to minimize any potential problems. <I understand> Question 2 the Assasi Triggerfish and Tuskfish will occasionally have white patches on their fins that I diagnose as lymphocystis. I make this diagnoses based on the appearance that the white patches seem to be inside the transparent fins of the fish and not discrete grain like spots that protrude from the fins. The white spots are more patch like and larger in size then the ich that I have encountered in the past. I realize the description is terse, but that is how I would describe it. I don't treat and have no concerns as they come and go intermittently. Can you provide any help with the diagnoses? Thanks again. <Mmm, might be virally-mediated... but could also be protozoan (there are some microsporidean, sporozoan infestations that appear as this... are wide-enough in their expression to show on diverse Orders of fishes...) and even a few worm possibilities. In all cases I would NOT go so far as to venture into test-treating this... I'd ignore and focus on elements of bolstering resistance through nutrition, and providing an optimized, stable environment. Bob Fenner>

Lymph transfer, Crab removal 4/18/06 Hi Everyone! After several months of non-eventful fishkeeping, I have two questions for you. First, we have a yellow tang that has been in QT for the last month-plus after purchase. He's a great little guy -- growing fast, very healthy eater, loves playing in the current, but had what we determined was Lymphocystis on his tail starting in week 1 of QT. Despite our concern, we followed fish store and FAQ instructions ( http://www.wetwebmedia.com/lymphfaqs.htm) and just left him alone with care to water quality, and the spot disappeared at the end of week 3. (yay!) <Good> Five days later, there's a new tiny spot on one of his fins. My question is whether we should continue to quarantine him until he has a month free of this, or if it's okay to put him in the display tank with our two Ocellaris clowns and our Royal Gramma. <I would move, place this fish> The water quality is higher in the main tank, but I don't want the other fish to catch it. <Not likely> Second, we have a hijacker crab that appeared in our tank last fall. When we first saw him, he was about ¾" across and only partially visible at night. Since then, we've pulled out a few dead crabs of the same type. (For a good picture, see here: http://photos1.blogger.com/hello/252/1727/640/DeadCrab.jpg Note bristly hair and black-tipped pincers.) One of my Blog readers ID'd it as a Pilumnus fissifrons, which seems right on, except that there is almost no information about it. We've spied bits of legs in the rock over the last few months, but haven't seen the full crab until last night. We were horrified to realize that his body alone is now two inches across and with his legs he's over three. He's bigger than our fish. We watched him for long enough to conclude that he seems to be eating just coralline algae and is scared of the fish, but is big enough that he's actually shifting the rocks as he feeds. We want him out of the tank, but are at a loss as to how. He seems more or less to move between four 5-10 lb rocks, some of which have zoos and mushrooms, so we don't want to lose them. He's a very quick mover when he's scared and only comes partway out of the rocks, so catching him with a net seems daunting. And he seems, for the moment, not to eat meat, so we're not really sure how to seed a trap. Do you have any advice how we might go about removing this quickly growing, creepy crab from our tank? <Can be trapped or baited/removed. Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/swcrabcomp.htm and the linked files... I would remove this animal, pronto.> Thanks for your help on both points! The WWM site is such a godsend. Susan and Kevin. <I'd say this is more of a Bobsend m'self. Bob Fenner>

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