Livestock Choices - 10/9/06
I'm about six months into a 240 marine tank and have stocked it with a Purple and Yellow Tang, a Coral Beauty, two small tank raised Maroon Clowns, half a dozen blue and green Chromis, two Neon Damsels, two Fairy Wrasse, a Pseudochromis, two Neon Gobies, two small tank raised Queen Conks, a couple of Electric Blue Crabs. I have a tank raised juvenile Mac Angel on request at the LFS, and was told they should have some in a couple of months. Don't plan to purchase any more fish, long term plans are to settle in and enjoy.
<I would not recommend adding a Maculosus with your current stocking list. Your mix of peaceful and aggressive fish may be pushed too far with the addition of a huge bully like the Mac. If you really want a Mac you may consider trading in the fairy wrasses and Chromis.>
Aggression is very limited, fish wise.
<For now. You have some fish that tend to grow up into bullies.>
One of the Clownfish bites my hand whenever I change the lettuce or seaweed. After feeding Sharks, Rays and Eels in the wild without a nibble, it's strange to be attacked by one of my own fish! Per advice of Wet Web, I purchased some live rock for the Coral Beauty to graze on, and took out some of the 'dead' rock.
<If by “dead” you mean base rock then leave it in the tank. With the addition of live rock your base rock will eventually become ‘live’ and beneficial.>
I was horrified to read that Dwarf Angels don't live as long in a fish only as they do in a reef system. I immediately changed the GE natural lights to ones that are supposed to bring out algae and other beneficial things in the live rock.
I also converted the tank to RO water, and am very pleased with the results. Water is crystal clear, perfect PH, with a 30 gallon change and lots of fresh charcoal every two weeks. The chiller keeps the temp at a solid 78 degrees. I threw away that cheap plastic hydrometer, and bought a decent one. Fish health is very good. They are fed three times a day, with Selcon and vitamins mixed in for one feeding. I plan to purchase a quality skimmer, other than that, is there anything else to insure keeping the fish healthy for the long term?
<Are you currently running a skimmer? Research and then purchase the best skimmer you can afford. 30 gallon water changes weekly would also be a great idea. Skimming and water changes can be a key to success with any tank, but even more so with fish only tanks. It’s good to see your ph and temp are well regulated. I’d also suggest skipping the lettuce and sticking with seaweed/Nori soaked in Selcon.>
Plans for a small reef tank, around 45 gallons, are in the works, to enjoy the reef between dives. :)
<Your fish list in its current form is reef safe. You could always turn the 240 into your reef tank <G>.>
Best,
<Best of luck to you. Continue educating yourself and I am certain you will meet with success! – Emerson>
Teresa

Re: Less Problematic Large Angel In SPS Dominated Reefs   9/4/06
James at al.,
Thanks for your reply.
Trying to obtain all the info I can get on this issue before I decide, I've been re-reading your "angel compatibility FAQ", and noticed one of your crew answers that, somehow, I missed before.
When asked the top three large angels  he'd choose for a reef, on a "blind decision", Bob Fenner answered: "<Okay... Pomacanthus annularis, Genicanthus species of any kind you like, Chaetodonoplus mesoleucos... my choices. Bob Fenner>.
The Genicanthus spp. is easy to understand, but I've been wondering why the P. annularis. Specially in number one. Is it because of a specific diet or behaviour that is distinct from the other Pomacanthus?
<I don't believe that Bob recommended these fish as "safe" reef dwellers, just the ones he would choose "if" he had to make a choice.  The annularis will nip at base of sessile invertebrates including corals.  They are also known to pick/nip on tridacnid clams.>
I did not consider the P. Annularis before, because I had the impression it would be similar to the P. Imperator (which I prefer) as regards its "reef safeness", but this statement made me look at it with new eyes... And if the Annularis is less "Russian roulette" than the ones I've been considering, I may opt for it.
<If you MUST have an angel, I would go with Bob's suggestions keeping in mind that none are totally safe.>
Regards,
<And to you.  James (Salty Dog)>
João

Angelfish choice   8/8/06
Hey guys,
<And ladies>
Well further to some in depth discussions with Eric about angelfishes and butterfly fishes a few weeks back, I have now come to a conclusion (I was
previously very undecided). I definitely want to get a large type angel as the centre piece fish (holocanthus or Pomacanthus). Really the tank is going
to be all about the angelfish, and everything else will have to be arranged to suit than animal, including type of set up and tank mates.
<Good approach>
To that end, I am trying to decide on which species of angel to go for:
1.    Queen Angel (H. ciliaris)
2.    Maculosus angel (P. maculosus)
3.    Emperor Angel (P. imperator)
4.    Navarchus Angel (P. navarchus)
While the navarchus is the smallest, it is probably also the most delicate.
I have had an emperor before, and would be like to try something different. That draws me to the other two - the Mac and the queen. Of the two, which is most likely to be the better long term choice?
<The former... tank bred availability, much easier going personality... Just needs a good deal of space...>
The tank will probably be my existing 180 (which is currently in storage, dried out, while renovating my house).
<Will need something bigger... like a 300...>
Tank mates will probably be a nice tang (powder blue maybe, purple tang..... nothing huge like a Naso tang), along with a dwarf angel (probably flame
angel), a couple of gobies (probably pair of yellow watchman) and a shoal of Chromis.
The angel will be last to be added. I was thinking of adding a 5 or 6" young adult (adult colours) rather than a small juvenile.
<Better to start at 3-4" overall length>
How quickly is an angel of this size likely to grow, and how big is he likely to get. Like everyone, I would love the animal to grow to full wild sizes - but in reality I think
this rarely happens.
Thanks for your input.
Regards,
Matt
<Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/pomacanthus/maculosus.htm
and the files linked above. Bob Fenner>

Blue line angel... sel... Ignorance   7/28/06
Hello,
I live in corpus Christi and I went to Houston and bought a Big BLUE LINE ANGEL.
<Best not to buy "big"...>
She has developed cloudy eyes and will not eat and stays up in the corner of the tank and she shakes every now and then. She also floats on one side. I think I am going to loose her.
<And likely lose this fish as well>
She has not eaten anything.
<...>
I have stayed up with her one night all night just to see if she would eat when the lights were off but nothing.
<? Pomacanthids don't eat at night...>
Please help me. Also I wanted to know if a fish had a bacterial infection
<What?...>
if it rubbed on another fish would that fish get sick and die also?
<Where do folks get such notions? How can people get by with such ignorance of simple biology? Physics, chemistry? Do my fellow citizens know more about Oprah than reality?>
Thanks,
Kim
<Where to start here? Have you read our archives on Marine Angels? Selection, Disease? What did you think re buying a "big" specimen? Please read what is posted. RMF>

Genicanthus personatus    3/17/06
Dear Crew,  <Lawrence>
Couple of questions here. 1. Does the G. personatus do well in captivity?  <I wouldn't recommend it.  They are a deeper/cooler water fish.> 2.
Where can I go (online) to purchase this angel fish?  <Think you will have a difficult time finding.  Do a google search.> I understand that they are rare and come from Hawaii. <Yes.> If they are too hard to come by, my next
choice would be an Emperor angel.  I do have a reef tank loaded with Xenia,
Gorgonia, green star polyps, zooanthids, mushrooms (green hairy, purple and
red) colt coral, pagoda, galaxy and a handful of sps coral. I've read where
the Genicanthus angels are the safest and the emperor is somewhat safe but
will nip at some of the coral mentioned above. I'm very nervous about putting
the emperor in, but have heard success stories as well, unless they were
delusions.  <Wouldn't do this with corals present, especially if the angel is adult size.> I have a collection of tangs (4 yellow, 1 purple, 1 unicorn, 1
sailfin and 2 regal blues) that the fish will be introduced to. There should be
plenty of space (500 gallons). 3. What would you do if you had to have an
angel fish?  <Remove the coral.>
thanks for your help...<You're welcome.  James (Salty Dog)>
Lawrence

Queen angel selection and age  - 03/11/2006
Hi Bob
I want to purchase a  medium queen angel , about 3- 5" as recommended. My LFS has one that's about 3-3 1/2"  with its juve coloration almost gone.  I was debating whether to buy it or hold out for a bigger one.
Is there any difference in terms of acclimating to a home aquarium between 3" or 5" angel?
<The three inchers are much better...>
Which one would you recommend?  Also, approximately how old is a queen at 3"
<Under a year...>
and what is their growth rate in captivity?  
<Mmm, five, six inches in two years... six, seven in three...>
Currently I  have a 125tank and I'm getting a 265(7ft x 2ft) early next year.
<Will need this. Cheers, Bob Fenner>

Cyano and Show Angels 11/02/05
Hey Ali, Thanks for your reply Ali...always informative and very helpful. It's always good to hear from you.
<You too Steve...>
Follow up question for you or any of the other gurus at WWM:
I have two large SEIO power heads, of which one of them was moved to flow over the section of substrate where the Red Cyano is forming without much improvement. I physically remove the Cyano, but within a few days it comes back. I feed daily, and give just enough for them to consume quickly without settling out, then give a little more, until they have all received some food. The Rabbitfish is a "pig" (as you said he would be), so I have to sometimes trick him away so the others can eat. Also, I give a small piece (3" x 3") of Nori each day for grazing. 
Do you think I should go to every other day with either of these? Every place that sells fish recommends feeding multiple times daily, so I considered my feeding practice less than that. I have chatted with other hobbyists and many indicate that the daily recommended feeding schedule is "hogwash" and that the fish should only be fed 3 - 4 times per week. I can tell you that since each fish have arrived, within a short period of time they gain girth and look very healthy. 
With the Cyano however, I wonder if I should cut back?
<Steven, how often are you doing your water changes? Siphon out as much of this gunk each time you do change your water. I believe you have a fish-only with live rock aquarium, correct? If so, what is your photoperiod? Do a large water change, siphoning out as much Cyano as possible. Then simply turning your lights completely off for 3 days. Afterwards, cutting your photoperiod back to 2 to 3 hours per day for 2 to 3 weeks. 
I'm not sure how your current system is plumbed but consider once again increasing water circulation. Regarding the water changes, it goes without saying that RO/DI water is a must; however check your TDS as you may have old filter cartridges. Sometimes the cartridges can wear out in just a couple months depending on your tap water quality. It may also be time to change your membrane as well. Additionally, make sure you use a high-quality salt mix. This Tropic Marin Pro-Reef salt is just phenomenal and I would look into that further as well.>
Last question: I am looking at adding a spectacular Angel. Considering the following: Pomacanthus Chrysurus, Gold Flake Angel, and last but certainly not least a Conspicillatus. What is your feeling on these with regards to quality of fish after transport, transition to captivity, and hardiness?
<All three can be incredibly hardy once adjusted. The P. chrysurus being the easiest to acclimate to captive life. Small/Medium sized Conspics do great, where as the larger full-blown adults have a much harder time adjusting. If you do purchase this fish, make it a point with your dealer to provide you with the smallest one possible. Over the years however, the smallest Conspic I've ever seen come through L.A. was a little over 3inches. Smaller ones also do tend to fetch a higher price than the larger ones, but well worth it if you can locate one. Goldflakes are generally a hardy fish as well. Most tend to adapt quite easily to captive life. I know several people who have tried them and from I know, everything has been going smoothly so far.>
I would like to get a large "show" fish, however it appears that the more common found for sell is a medium size at best. Would the medium be more likely to acclimate well, or should I keep looking for the large or extra large variety?
<Medium/Small is always your best option. Generally speaking, avoid tiny, large or extra large fish unless they are aggressively eating prepared foods.>
Again your comments are greatly appreciated. Y'all take care!
Steven
<You too Steve...Good luck! - Ali>

Done with the Goni., addressing overstocking - Holy Cow! 10/25/05
Hi Adam
<Ignatio.>
Again, I need to confess that seems I over stocking my fishes. 
<Uh-Oh!> 
In my 100 gallon (the age: 9 months), I have: 9 fishes + 4 Lysmata amboinensis 1 blue face 4" (2 months already)
<This guy is a tank buster…needs a much larger tank as an adult.>
4 Flame angels 2" (3 months already)
<Is that a typo?! Four flame angels…. honestly I’m surprised you haven’t had more problems, as harsh as this may sound you really should consider ridding yourself a few of them.>
1 Regal angel 3" (2.5 months already)
<That’s another angel that needs a boat-load of room. WAY to many angels my friend. As well as not having enough physical room, there could….there WILL be aggression later down the road. Seems like you want this tank to go in the direction of a reef so in that case all but maybe the flame (only one preferably) should be omitted. Even without considering the future reef these fish need new homes at earliest convenience, to avoid aggression and space restraints, especially the larger angels and at least 2 of the flame angels…preferably 3 out of 4 as mentioned above.>
1 Chaetodon lunulatus 1.5" (only eat open brain coral) (3 months already)
<Careful now it could pick on other corals down the road, including your new Goni, best to omit this one to in a full blown reef.>
1 Yellow tang 2.5" (1 month)
1 Purple tang 2" (2 weeks)
<Oh yes the warring Zebrasomas we have spoke of in our previous conversations, well as I said earlier their will be aggression especially as they both become adults, eventually you will be only able to keep one and that’s IF your yellow decides to play nice for the time being, you may have to remove one sooner than later.>
All of them are healthy and want to eat, some times I saw my biggest flame angel is chasing each other but not too aggressively because I put them in the same time. (the same case like yellow vs. purple tang). 
<It will get worse as they get older, these animals weren’t “built” to live in this proximity. What seems like harmless nipping, chasing can be quite stressful>Fortunately my Blue face not bothering the
others.
So what do you think the longevity of my fishes for 9 of them
<This array of 9 fish is not at all a wise long term assortment. The blue face and the regal alone need tanks upwards of 200 gallons (separately not together). I would seriously consider re-thinking your stocking list especially if you want a reef, look into gobies, clowns, blennies and cardinals to name a few (after you fix the current problem that is). Lots of enjoyment in these fish most are “reef-friendly” and would make much better long term citizens.>
Do you ever go to Indonesia?
<<Di Fenner says Indonesia is one of her favorite places on earth to visit.  MH>>
<No…farthest away from the mainland I have been is our tropical island chain State known as Hawaii.>
Thank you Adam
Best regards
Ignatio
<Good luck, and if you want some more ideas restocking your tank I would be happy to help, Adam J.>

Marine Angels: (Holacanthus bermudensis) 10/11/05
Bob and the Crew,
<Adam J with you tonight.>
Thank you so much for this awesome site...I have come across this site a few months ago and I have enjoyed reading all the posts here tremendously...(not to mention learning new things every day). Thanks!
<And thank you for the kind words, I will share them with rest of the crew.>
Today I have a question and I hope you guys can help me with... I have a 29g Fish only tank running for 6 months, fully cycled with
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 5 ppm
Ph 8.3 and stable
Currently I have one tomato clown and everything went well...Recently I bought a juvenile Blue Angel fish (1" size).
<Small sizes like this rarely adapt to captivity (most perish in shipping and acclimation). Best to purchase specimens around 3”. I am also glad to see this tank is temporary.>
Since I am planning to upgrade to 125g tank
<180-gallons would be better for the adult size of the angel.>
in 6 months time and I love raising this beautiful fish, I decide to go ahead trying out this plan.
Upon bringing him home, I then had this Angel quarantined for three weeks and he was very lively, eating and playing actively... 
< A good sign.> 
The only unusual thing was that I notice his swimming was erratic occasionally (like charging or bolting forward unexpectedly). I checked all water parameters carefully (including electrical grounding) and everything was normal and I
thought it could be due to his shyness (when he saw shadows etc...).
<In the wild, juveniles of this size rarely venture out into open water, they are usually hiding amongst the shadows and rock, be sure to have lots of hiding spaces. Intense lighting can also spook them. Subdued lighting would be best to “comfort” him.>
Today I take him to the display tank where the tomato clown is and I notice his behaviour did not change. He is hanging around with the clown (they are both the same size) and the clown does not bother him at all... 
However he is still occasionally bolting/charging forward which is now staring to stress the clown as he may be startled and probably thinking the Angel starts attacking him... His erratic behaviour looks very unsettling and I am not sure what is wrong with him...The clown behaves normally as always, but a bit stressed out if anything.
Please help...
<Sounds like he is insecure of his surroundings. Make sure there are plenty of caves in which he can hide himself. Furthermore even at this size I suspect the confines of 29 gallons is getting to him, Angels love room to roam.>
I have a short movie clip as well of his behaviour, if this helps...
Thanks much, Rob
<Read here for more info: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/holacanthus/, Adam J.> 

Angel Fish Deaths  9/21/05
Over the past year, we have had multiple angel fish deaths.  They have
all occurred suddenly without any apparent injury to the other fish in
the tank. The saltwater tank has been set up for two years, and we do
regular water changes, and have no abnormalities in the water.
Currently, we have a damsel fish, two clown fish, and a yellow tang, in
addition to shrimp, crabs, and snails with live rock.  Each new addition
to the 70 gallon tank (all have been angel fish. a blue angel, six bar
angel, coral beauty, and flagfin angel) have lived for a couple months,
and then died suddenly.  Prior to their death, they appear well
integrated into the tank, have no outward abnormalities, no signs of
trauma, and are eating well.  We can't seem to figure out what the cause
of death could be.  Please provide any suggestions to help.  Could there
be any other hard metal abnormalities even though that we use a RO/DI
filter?  Copper, lead, and iron testing have all been negative.   Thanks
for the help, Dale  <First impression is you are not meeting their requirements/diet, etc.  Read some of the articles here, Dale.  http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/
James (Salty Dog)> <<Also, most of the angels mentioned are not hardy for aquarium use... RMF>>

Bigger Tank...Bigger Fishes? (Cont'd.) 7/31/05
Scott,
Thanks for the reply.
<You're quite welcome!>
Lots to think about.
You mentioned the Genicanthus sp of angels.  Never even really heard of them before.  Did some quick looking up and they look like beautiful fish!!  Do you
think that a Swallowtail Angel would work in my system?
<They are nice fishes, but they can be a bit sensitive, coming from deeper water. They are subject to stresses from the collection process. Acquisition of a specimen from a reliable source is critical. They do get to pretty good sizes, so you do want to make sure that you have a lot of room for the fish to maneuver in its captive environment, as well as tankmates that don't harass it. Quarantine is crucial!>
On another note, I also saw a small (3") Singapore angel at the LFS. Opinions?
<This fish is a notoriously tough fish to keep. Many don't acclimate to captive life and failure to feed. I'd pass on this one, myself. I kept one for about two years, after which it died most mysteriously! I haven't heard too many success stories about this fish in the long term, and have been rather cynical about keeping this fish again. That's my personal two cents on the fish!>
If the larger angels are out, what are the odds of adding a second pigmy angel to my tank with an established Coral Beauty?  Always wanted a Flame Angel.
<Always a potential catastrophe in the making, IMO. I just received correspondence from another hobbyist who attempted this unsuccessfully. It's not impossible- but it is very challenging and fraught with potential problems. If your system was specifically set up just for Centropyge, and stocked with them carefully from the start, there is potential for success. Breeding groups, or "harems" can be established if carefully managed. My advice is to pass on this experiment unless you go this dedicated species-specific route.>
Perhaps some ill-tempered, mutated Seabass!!!  lol
<Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight!  :)  >
On a totally different note, how would you recommend QTing a clam?  Do I need the intense lighting for the QT???  I just have a little 10-gal (also have a 29avail now) simple setup with a HOT filter and a sponge filter with the screw in PC bulbs.
<In a quarantine setup, you can get by with this type of lighting because of the proximity to the light in such a small tank. Supplemental feeding will help compensate for the lower levels of lighting. You can elevate the clam on an eggcrate/PVC platform. This will increase proximity to the light, and also allow potentially disruptive organisms (such as parasitic snails) to "fall off" to the bottom of the tank. Do read up on the WWM site under "Quarantine of Marine Invertebrates".>
Thanks again!!
Ray
<My pleasure. Good luck!>

Juvenile Chrysurus 27 Jul 2005
I have a juvenile Chrysurus angel that is probably about the size of a quarter. I didn't mean to get him so small.<Hi Brandon, MacL here with you today. No worries on the size as long as we can get past the barrier of getting him to eat.> I ordered him on the net from Marine Center, so I know the fish was properly cared for. That said, I've had him for about 2 to 3 weeks. He hasn't eaten any prepared foods, and that includes live brine. He is constantly picking at the rocks however, showing somewhat of a feeding response. <If he is constantly picking he is probably eating copepods found in the rocks. He is more than likely getting enough to sustain him but unless you have a way to refill what he eats or you reseed the tank with pods he will eventually wear out the supply. There are many places that you can buy pods to restock or you can use this time to get him eating other things. One of my new favorites is www.seapods.com. A new business that sells beneficial pods to help replenish.> There are no fish in the 125G tank to pick on him. <Does that mean there are no other fish at all or just that no one there will pick on him? Often they can learn to eat other foods based on examples from other fish.> He has now developed a large white clump on his left pectoral fin. It looks very large, too large to be ich. <Sounds to me like it might be lymphocystis, you might check the site to determine if it is. If so good water conditions should take care of the problem.> I'm worried that his immune system may be compromised from not eating. <Perhaps just a bit stressed from being a small tyke and shifted.>  Any ideas of what to feed when live brine won't work? <Lots of stuff might appeal to him. He might eat mussels cracked open. He might eat Mysis either frozen or live. Did you contact the marine center to ask them what he was eating while there. I have had a lot of success with fish not eating by putting garlic on the frozen foods. Seems to encourage them to eat.> He chases it, only to look and not eat. <Good luck, MacL>
Thanks.

Large angelfish selection 7/17/05
I just wanted to say thank you, I was convinced that I had to have a 6 banded angel, and that no others would do!  That was until I read your article and realized that it would be so selfish of me to buy this beautiful creature only to have it die after only months.
<Likely weeks, even days.>
I would never want to be a part of the death of such a magnificent creature!  Your article has convinced me to get a Koran when I am ready for one!  I really appreciate all of your wonderful advice, especially since my LFS has NO IDEA about anything. ( They recommended and I now own the problematic  Seaclone 150!)  No longer will I take their word for it!  I think people like you and sites like this can help hobbyists realize that many are out to push the product, and not truly interested in the well being of the fish!  Thank you again, Tanis Montminy
<Thank you for your acknowledgment and bolstering our sense of what we're doing here. Bob Fenner>

Which Angel(s) would be best?
Hello! This is my first time writing after reading many...many items from the website.
I find your information and suggestions very helpful and obviously well thought out.
<We've... walked the walk... and are able/willing, even eager to "talk the talk"...>
Anyway....I have stocked a FO 90gal "show" type tank with a few peaceful residents.
A Christmas wrasse, Fiji puffer, Royal Gramma, Orangetail Butterfly, Yellow Watchman Goby, and a small school (5) of Green Chromis. I would like to start adding the final fish to the tank and thought a combo of Angels would finish off the tank nicely.
<...>
I am thinking about maybe one full size Angel and one dwarf.
<Mmm, no... this tank is too small for a large angel...>
Could you give me suggestions on a good combo for this size and type of tank. The tank has good filtration and skimmer.
Thanks in advance,
Donald R. Wear
<Look to one of the medium to smaller genera, species... Genicanthus, Centropyge... reviewed and evaluated on WWM. Bob Fenner>

Question About Pomacanthus annularis - 06/05/05
First of all, let me say that I think your website is wonderful, and I've read your book cover to cover.
<<Hello Steve, Eric R. here today, and I assume you're referring to Bob's book...excellent reading it is.>>
I've gained much knowledge from reading the FAQs and your readers' questions.
<<Yes...much to be found/discovered among these pages.>>
This started as my wife's hobby, but I found myself helping out allot, especially in the LFS.  I guess I'm a good listener so
I've been able to help my wife decipher what the LFS sales guys are saying.  I also refurbished the filtration system on an old 125 that I bought used, so I guess I'm becoming a hobbyist.
<<Tee hee!  Does go that way sometimes.  Hopefully you're enjoying the involvement.>>
Finally, I have a question for you.  Currently, I have a fish only 125 gallon marine aquarium with the following fish.
<<Wait!  What's this "I" stuff?  Thought you said this was your wife's hobby <Big Grin>?>>
Clarkii Clown, Flame Hawk, Niger Trigger, Green Bird Wrasse, Hippo Tang, Wolf Eel Blenny
Some of the sales people are telling my wife she can have a dozen or so fish (or more if they're small).
<<Not surprising to hear, but, stocking a tank is MUCH more involved than basing numbers on the size of the tank and the size of the fish.  Factors such as hardiness, activeness, temperament/compatibility, etc. must be considered.  Each addition must be researched carefully, and any decisions on size should be based on the fishes SIZE AT MATURITY.>>
She is definitely wanting to add an Annularis angel.
<<Ahh...Pomacanthus annularis...beautiful fish.>>
I'm thinking that this would still be ok, but we should probably not add any more after this.  Do you think there's room for an Annularis?  I realize the tang and trigger can get very large <<and that bird wrasse grows to a foot on the reef.>>,  but they're both still quite small.  Your input is much appreciated.
<<To be honest Steve, I'm hesitant about this mix of fish.  The tank is large enough for the angel (though at a mature 20" I would prefer to see it go in to a tank twice this size) but will become quite crowded as all these large fish grow.  I think all would be happier/healthier in the long run without the tang or the trigger; my vote would be to remove the Hippo Tang (too skittish and disease prone in small systems, IMO).>>
Thank you, Steve
<<Welcome, Eric Russell>>

Question About Pomacanthus annularis II - 06/07/05 actually PYTB
Thanks so much for the reply.
<<Happy to do so.>>
That's not the first time I've heard about Hippo Tangs being a little harder to keep.  Is this something that happens later
in life?
<<Not in my opinion...I've noted/read of their skittish nature, proclivity to succumb to ich at all ages.>>
Our Tang looks like one of the most healthy fish we own.  He eats well and is always grazing on algae, and this fish has grown from 2.5" to almost 4" in around 6 months.
<<Perhaps you are the exception.  These fish are naturally very robust and very active.  They need lots of food, and this fish actually requires a diet higher in protein than vegetable matter.>>
It's actually one of my favorites, and I'd hate to give it up to make room for someone new.  Maybe the upgrade to 300 gallons will
be sooner than I thought.
<<Always a good reason to go bigger (like you need a reason <G>).  A 300 would make a terrific display for the selection of fish you listed originally...and maybe a couple more discreet additions as well.>>
Thanks again for the response, and I'll be talking to you all soon.
<<Looking forward to it.>>
Steve
<<Eric R.>>

Emperor Angelfish
Hello. I was very concerned about the Emperor Angelfish I would like one of my own, they are so beautiful and majestic... so I was wondering first are they at all difficult? Do they require expert care? I own a glass 150gallon tank at full grown could several exist in my tank? Write back soon thanks! 
<Read here my friend.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/pomacanthus/imperator.htm - James (Salty Dog)> 

Passer Angelfish Switcheroo With a Flame Angel - 15 May 2005
I am angry right now as I went to purchase a flame angel for my 75 gal tank and came home with a Passer Angel because I was told it would only grow to about 8 inches! 
<Yowsa, someone either was majorly misinformed or majorly confused.> 
He is beautiful and approx 3.5 to 4 inches right now. 
<They are a stunning fish.> 
He came with a high price tag and now that I have done some research realize I am going to have to upgrade my new 75 gal within 6 months. 
<Definitely a very quick growing fish.> 
Not what I want to do and my husband would kill me anyway. 
<Eeek> 
Do Saltwater fish stores take fish back for the same price normally. 
<I think that a reputable fish store would take the fish back simply because you were misinformed about his total size. Now they might give you store credit instead of cash back. That often depends on different stores.> 
They are closed today so not sure of what to do. 
<Call first thing as soon as they are opened and only speak to a manager or owner of the store.> 
Believe me I am learning the hard way and will get better at this, already learning LSWF may not be as educated as I which is not much at the moment! 
<I'm sure it was an honest mistake and like you said they were not as educated. If I might make a suggestion, it might behoove you to put any fish you want on hold then get educated about what they need before you make the purchase. I'm not sure the type of store that you bought the fish from but often many of these stores aren't specifically for fish and don't give the staff the appropriate education. I'm sure that its more a lack of time constraint than anything else but you might also do some research to find a store in the area that can give you the information you need.> 
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Great site, very informative!!!!!! 
<How kind of you to say, thanks MacL>

Annularis Angel, James' go
Hey crew, on the last question I forgot to mention in previous email:  How do
you feel about putting an annularis angel in a 65g FOWLR setup?  He will be
one of only about three other smaller fish, I really can't seem to find any
angels I like that don't outgrow my tank and he's the smallest so I'm really
considering him? <I've search a few sites and the Annularis (Blue Ringed Angel) can attain a length of 12'. They are considered hardy as far as the angel family. Myself, I would prefer the Blue Girdled Angel.  They would fair a little better in a 65.  Your tank size is slightly below borderline for any of these angels as they will grow.  James (Salty Dog)>
Thanks <<This is a VERY POOR choice IMO... James, see WWM, the web, references re. RMF>>

Blue Ringed Angel
Hey Jim, blue- girdled angel? That's received a (3) rating and a "difficult maintenance" from everywhere I have researched. So, that angel is HARD to keep and dies often and mysteriously within a month or two. Why would I take my chances on something that has a poor and dismal survival rating. Are you sure you're knowledgeable about this particular thing and you should be replying to emails? And next time try to be a little more professional. 
<Jay, I probably was in err suggesting that to you. My basis for that lies with other people and myself who have kept them. Together we felt they were not that difficult to keep as far as angels go. No angel is easy to keep. But also keep in mind that all other parameters have to be strictly maintained. That is a 125 or larger, pristine water quality along with 10% water changes and an excellent diet. The tank also needs to be loaded with live rock and been set up at least six months. I'm wrong in suggesting that since I don't know your experience or skill level. Most newbies (if you are one) generally will not go through the work necessary to maintain this fish and therefore the fish would probably rate a three on a one to four level. I do try my best to give professional, informative and safe suggestions in my responses. But since I am human, the chance for error can exist. My apologies, and you should stick with the Blue Ringed Angel or a Koran which I would rate at a two level in degree of difficulty. James (Salty Dog)>

Bad advice
Bob,
Probably wrong, but I based this on my having kept a couple of Blue Girdled and on advice from a few site who sell these type angels.
<Mmm, well, this is what you should do... and folks' experiences do vary... I assure you though... as recorded on the Net, in print... that the subgenus that includes this fish... almost never thrive in captivity>
Then again, if LFSs want to sell them instead of flushing them down the toilet, they are not going to tell you they are difficult. But anyway, the two I've had lived a few years before they outgrew my 125 and had to be sold. They readily accepted any food I gave them. Quite possible that I was lucky, don't know. Thanks anyway for the response, and I will always keep this in mind.
Regards, James (Salty Dog)
<Thank you... will archive this with our input. Bob F> 

Blue face angel, large angel sel.
HI and thanks for the opportunity for my question. I have the opportunity to purchase a 30 cm Blue face angel. I personally think it's wrong to capture fish this size for the aquarium trade but means nothing to the blue face I'm thinking of buying. I would like to ask you if you think it's wise buying a fish this size,
<I do think it's a poor idea to send such illiterate messages... use your spelling, grammar checkers, please>
( I really feel for the poor thing and it is a stunning fish), and what size tank should it really belong in so it's quite comfortable. I have a 550 litre tank, 4x 2 x 2 ( sorry we work in litres in Australia) to accommodate this fish while another tank can be established. Any advice you can give would be greatly appreciated.
<In general large specimens of pomacanthids collected wild fare poorly... You can read re my opinions re  Euxiphipops on WWM. Bob Fenner>

Mis-matched Marine Set-up -II ... (file under skimmer and angel selection)
Thanks for your quick response and vital info. Three last questions please.  You suggested to get a better protein skimmer for my 125g tank when I set it up for the fish transfer. Seaclone makes a larger model for up to 150 gallon tanks. Is it just an inferior design versus other makes?
<Yes... read on re... get something better>
Secondly, if I were to upsize to a 150 or 180g would it still be unadvisable to add a large angel, or any large fish, to the mix of Hippo Tang, Purple Tang, Foxface, Clown, Gobies, Cherub Angel, 6 line wrasse, Royal Gramma and Orchid Dottyback?
<Mmm you could add a "larger" species of Angel... at least for a period of a few years in a larger system...>
And if not, what type of large angel would have a better chance to mix, a blue face, blue girdled, or imperator ? Thanks for the help.
<Of these, the Emperor. Bob Fenner>

A Marine Angel in Mumbai
Hi,
I am from Mumbai India and I've a 120 gal FOWLR marine tank that I've set up 5 months back. I've read and admired your site for more than a year now ... great work.
<Thanks, everyone works hard to help when and where we can.> 
Currently I've 2 BTA with maroon clowns , 1 blue damsel , 1 yellow tang and 1 blue tang. My LFS has currently got a emperor angel (3 inch) and a blue face angel (4 inch). Both are in good health and eating prepared food. Since we do not get marine fish readily here I am tempted to buy both. I am planning to upgrade to a 180 gal tank next year. My question is (1) will there be a compatibility issue between the two angels and (2) if I've to choose, which will be your recommended choice.
Thanks,
Sumit
<Hello, I am glad we have been able to help. I am sorry to say that I don't think the two fish will get along long term in your tank. A general rule as it pertains to angels is that if they are large in size and similar in color then they won't get along. An adult Emperor Angel and an adult blue face will be similar in color and might fight. I have seen it happen both ways. One where they coexisted and one where they fought. I would suggest to you not to try it. I don't think that it would be fair to the fish and that you would be asking for trouble. If I were to choose between the two fish I would go with the Emperor for the color or I would chose the Blue face for the smaller size so I could put more fish in the tank. Good Luck. MikeB.>

- Dwarf Angels -
Greetings crew,
After reading through compatibility FAQ's for "dwarf" and Pomacanthidae I found questions and answers relating to my situation, but not close enough to keep me from bugging you. Sorry, but here comes another "can I put this and this in this tank" question....
My 125g FOWLR tank is currently fallow following an error in judgment regarding a Tang in QT suffering from stress and reaction to copper used for a case of ich. Never again will I move a fish from QT to display early. Anyways I lost a Yellow Tang and 2 Damsels, but my 4" Passer Angel, Talbot's and Fiji Devil Damsel are now recovering nicely in QT.
I've been contemplating the restocking, and would really love to place 2 Centropyges in the 125. 
<Would suggest only one in a tank of this size.> 
I have a 2nd 20g QT to setup, and could introduce the new Angels at the same time I reintroduce the Passer and Damsels. 
<Would actually introduce the Centropyge first.> 
The tank has about 100lbs LR and 1" sandbed in the display and a 50g sump/fuge containing an oversized Tunze skimmer and 4" DSB w/ macro and @10lbs LR in the fuge. Is this a gamble I should take? 
<It would work, sure, but as I've mentioned, would suggest only one of those you list, and put it in before the Passer.>
I haven't decided on the particular species but was considering the Flame, Heraldi, Venustus, Rusty, and Eiblii. That is if this is advisable. 
<All very nice choices.>
Thanks for your help
Kenney
<Cheers, J -- > 

Centropyge V Genicanthus 8 March 2005
I have a 48x24x24 reef tank that has primarily LPS and SPS. 
<Great size for a tank.> 
I am considering adding an angel to my tank and have narrowed the choices to a Centropyge multicolor and Genicanthus watanabei. I was wondering if you have any thoughts on which would be the most appropriate for a reef tank? 
<I have had both types of angels. The multicolor is probably one of my favorite fish in the entire world. That being said I did not find mine entirely trustworthy in a reef tank. He picked on my clam a bit and ate some my xenias. I had suspicions that he nibbled on some of my SPS' as well. But let me do say that you cannot get a more beautiful angel. In my experience the Centropyge's are individuals. Some individual fish will nibble on things while others do not. I know that makes it difficult to assist with the decision but its more an accurate assessment of what the Centropyge will do.> 
I have read most of the summaries on the wetwebmedia.com site along with the FAQs but cannot find much information on the multicolor in terms of a reef tank. It appears that the Centropyge can be coral eaters and I was wondering if this is true for the multicolor, or if, since this is a deep water species, if that means that it would likely not eat coral? If there is a chance that it would eat coral then I would likely go with the watanabei since it appears that this species does not bother corals. 
<I have never seen a Genicanthus that bothered a coral. Not one of them so they are more likely to be the best candidate for a reef tank.> 
Anyway, if you could let me know your thoughts it would be much appreciated. 
<Hope that helped, Good luck, MacL> 

Multicolor
Thanks very much for the great information. I guess I kind of knew that the Genicanthus was the safer choice but was holding out some hope for the multicolor since I saw one for the first time in a store a few days ago and it is a very nice looking fish, though the watanabei is beautiful as well. 
<You know Brian honestly if you find the fish of your dreams I really suggest getting it and making whatever accommodations you find necessary to keep it. You might not have ANY problems whatsoever and its worth it to have something that you find amazing. Good luck, MacL> 

Angelfish Trade-Offs
Hi Bob,
<Scott F. in this afternoon!>
I was interested in getting an Emperor Angelfish, or Majestic or Maculosus Angelfish but I am unsure of their compatibility with cleaner shrimp.
<Fish, like people are all different. However, I would generally not be too concerned about these fishes attacking Cleaner Shrimp. This is not to say that they WON'T, but they are typically not much of a threat, in my experience. If you are keeping sessile inverts, like corals- forget it, as they will make a meal out of almost all corals you'd care to keep!>
I have a 220g tank with the following fish:
Powder Blue Tang
Yellow Longnose
Heniochus sp.
Green Chromis
Yellow Damsels
Blue Chromis
Yellow Watchmen Goby
Mandarin
Pistol Shrimp
Sand Starfish
Blue Crabs
Banggai Cardinal
Cleaner Wrasse
Fairy Wrasse
Flame Angel
2 Fire Gobies
2 False Percula Clownfish
<A nice group of fishes and inverts...>
Do you think these Angelfish are good? If not, any recommendations?
Also, what about introducing a Sailfin tang to my powder blue tang?
Thanks for your help.
Candice
<Well, Candice- each of the angels that you mentioned can be excellent pets if you select quality, healthy specimens, acclimate them carefully, and provide a stable environment. However, your tank has a pretty good population already, and these "full size" angels require a lot of physical space and territory. In fact, a rule of thumb offered by Bob and others is that you should dedicate at least 100 gallons of your system alone to just the angel. Maculosus Angels are awesome fish, however! If it were me, though, I'd be inclined to try a more "outgoing" Centropyge angel, like the Lemonpeel Angel (C. flavissimus) in your situation. It can reach a comfortable 5", is pretty outgoing and able to take care of itself, and can be quite hardy if you get a net-caught specimen. These guys are territorial with other angels, but should settle in nicely with your other fishes. I tend to encourage people to keep these "dwarf" angels more often, as they do have many of the endearing attributes of the bigger guys, but are generally less demanding in terms of space requirements. They can, of course, be challenging in their own right. In my opinion, the large Angels, particularly the Emperor, are best suited to situations where they are the "showcase" fish, and are surrounded by smaller, less active fishes. Housed this way, they can be spectacular! Also, I feel that you tank has too many smaller fishes in it to be able to house one of these guys comfortably for a natural life span. Remember, the Emperor can reach up to 15", and the others that you mention can hit a foot or more as well. I maintain a 72"x 24"x 30" (225 gallon) system, and I would be hesitant to house one of these fishes in anything less than an 8 foot long tank. Some people may disagree, but if you've ever seen one of these fishes at size in the wild, you'll realize that most of us should be thinking about smaller fishes in our systems. With regard to your question about the Sailfin Tang...This is another awesome fish, but it, too can hit 15" plus, and requires a huge tank as well. They are excellent fishes, however, durable and displaying great personalities! I would not add one to your tank at this point. Perhaps a Ctenochaetus species, like the Kole Tang, which is a much more modest-sized fish, would be a better choice. Or, there's always the old standby, the Yellow Tang. Common, but a good fish nonetheless! You have a very interesting tank, so any addition that you make should compliment the existing animals and add some interest, without overwhelming the system! Hope my diatribe inspires you to look into some of the smaller versions of the "big guys" found in the trade! Good luck! Regards, Scott F.> 

Pomacanthus annularis query
Hey crew, on the last question I forgot to mention in previous email:  How do
you feel about putting an annularis angel in a 65g FOWLR setup?  He will be
one of only about three other smaller fish, I really can't seem to find any
angels I like that don't outgrow my tank and he's the smallest so I'm really
considering him?
Thanks
>>>Hello Jay,
P. annularis is not a beginner's angel number one. Number two, your tank is much too small to accommodate one for any significant period of time. If you can't find a dwarf angel that you like...well I'm worried about you quite frankly Jay. :)
Consider C. acanthops or C. argi. Both are attractive, very small and VERY hardy. The only caveat being that they are rather aggressive, but this usually isn't a problem if they are added last. Just don't keep them with very shy fish.
Good Luck
Jim<<<

A Debate Over Angels
Hey Jim, you're worried about me? lol. That wasn't necessary man. Besides, everyone has different likings to things, to each their own. Second, I'm not a beginner and my tank has been setup for over two years and I've had fish for over 13 years. And you might want to check your research regarding marine angels because NO angel is a beginner fish Jim. And Bob Fenner gave the annularis a (1) rating. Thanks for your help anyway though bud.
>>>Now Jay, I was just funnin' ya buddy. :) To each his own indeed.  Having said that, no I actually don't need to check my research, I AM the research. I've been doing this for 20 years or so and have been keeping marine angels of many types all the while, and in my types of situations. My remarks are ALWAYS based in empirical data, not second hand info or unreliable accounts on the web or elsewhere. This is also why I'm already aware of P. annularis' tank requirements - look Ma, no Google!
Number two - hardiness among angels is usually a relative thing compared to other genera, but they do range from EXTREMELY hardy, to quite delicate. You're also quite wrong that NO angel is a beginner fish. C. argi is as hardy as marine fish come, practically a damsel disguised as an angel, and so is C. acanthops. Both are small and easily accommodated by most hobbyists. For a hobbyist with a bit more experience and space? We have Holocanthus passer - you need to hang it on a clothesline to kill it. P. maculosus isn't far behind. As long as the keeper can manage the eventual size of the fish, and the aggression level, and has done enough research to know at least how large of [a] tank he needs, he should do just fine, even if he is a relative beginner.  
P. annularis ranks somewhere below P. imperator as a juvenile, although slightly older sub-adults often do quite well once acclimated. Scott Michael gives it a 3 on a scale of 1-5, and based on my experience I concur with his assessment where young juveniles are concerned.
Good Luck, Jim<<<

Angels - part 3
I disagree, I don't think ANY angel should be used as a beginner fish. They need a good 3 or more months of good, established water. And as far as the tank size, common, it doesn't have to be as strict as your making it sound as long as you keep up with water changes and remove it before it outgrows the tank (if full size may be too big for tank). We're talking fish here not mammals (Orcas or dolphins). When someone purchases a dog, should they be saying that they're apartment is too small to accommodate it then (running, freedom, space, etc.) so they shouldn't buy it? lol. As long as you give your animal, whatever it may be, a good, happy, healthy, spacious home, I don't see a problem with it. Unfortunate you couldn't be of assistance, but thank you anyway :-)
>>>'sigh'
You can disagree Jay, and you can be wrong. You've just done both. You can't assign an arbitrary period of time and say "this is how long this or that fish needs" You need a stable system (not "established water") for ANY marine organism. This has NOTHING to do with how experienced the keeper is. Even a smart beginner makes sure his tank is stable before adding fish. Sure you can cycle a tank with certain fish, even an argi angel, but that doesn't mean it's wise. Angels are NOT by their very nature "a certain way" as a taxonomic group. They vary, many are delicate, a few are quite hardy. Some are huge, some are quite small. You cannot generalize, unless of course you lack sufficient experience with the genera involved to make an educated statement on the subject. Also, obviously you can keep a fish in a smaller tank as long as you remove it before it grows too big. By that logic you can keep a Queensland grouper on a 10 gallon tank. I assume the tank in question is for long term use, and that is the only safe thing to do lacking further information on your needs.
C. argi or C. acanthops are as much a beginner fish as any other. You can argue that NO marine fish is a beginner fish as well. C. argi is as hardy as most damsels, but then again I've only been keeping them for 20 years so I'm just a youngan.
Disagreeing is one thing, disagreeing without empirical data to back it up is quite another. If you think you know too much to be in need of this type of advice, by all means refrain from asking it.
Peace
Jim<<< FWIW, RMF agrees with both/all views here>>

Annularis Angel, James' go
Hey crew, on the last question I forgot to mention in previous email:  How do
you feel about putting an annularis angel in a 65g FOWLR setup?  He will be
one of only about three other smaller fish, I really can't seem to find any
angels I like that don't outgrow my tank and he's the smallest so I'm really
considering him? <I've search a few sites and the Annularis (Blue Ringed Angel) can attain a length of 12'. They are considered hardy as far as the angel family. Myself, I would prefer the Blue Girdled Angel.  They would fair a little better in a 65.  Your tank size is slightly below borderline for any of these angels as they will grow.  James (Salty Dog)>
Thanks <<This is a VERY POOR choice IMO... James, see WWM, the web, references re. RMF>>

Blue Ringed Angel
Hey Jim, blue- girdled angel? That's received a (3) rating and a "difficult maintenance" from everywhere I have researched. So, that angel is HARD to keep and dies often and mysteriously within a month or two. Why would I take my chances on something that has a poor and dismal survival rating. Are you sure you're knowledgeable about this particular thing and you should be replying to emails? And next time try to be a little more professional. 
<Jay, I probably was in err suggesting that to you. My basis for that lies with other people and myself who have kept them. Together we felt they were not that difficult to keep as far as angels go. No angel is easy to keep. But also keep in mind that all other parameters have to be strictly maintained. That is a 125 or larger, pristine water quality along with 10% water changes and an excellent diet. The tank also needs to be loaded with live rock and been set up at least six months. I'm wrong in suggesting that since I don't know your experience or skill level. Most newbies (if you are one) generally will not go through the work necessary to maintain this fish and therefore the fish would probably rate a three on a one to four level. I do try my best to give professional, informative and safe suggestions in my responses. But since I am human, the chance for error can exist. My apologies, and you should stick with the Blue Ringed Angel or a Koran which I would rate at a two level in degree of difficulty. James (Salty Dog)>

Bad advice
Bob,
Probably wrong, but I based this on my having kept a couple of Blue Girdled and on advice from a few site who sell these type angels.
<Mmm, well, this is what you should do... and folks' experiences do vary... I assure you though... as re