Ammonia in QT 05/10/2008
Hello WWM crew.
<<Hello, Andrew this evening>>
First, I would like to think you for all your great work. I have used your site extensively over the last three years however this is
the first time I have written in.
<<Thanks for the comments, and nice to hear from you>>
I searched though your site and on the internet but I couldn't find the answer to my question. I recently set up a 10g QT system for my 29g reef. I have never done a QT before but you guys convinced me. Here is the QT setup: a pinguine biowheel HOB filter without the biowheel ( I think it is a 50g model but I'm not sure), A 50w stealth heater, two 14 watt 6500K CF bulbs screwed into the hood that comes with the tank, and a 4 inch PVC tee for cover. I left a sponge in my sump for about two weeks prior to setting up the system and put the sponge on the HOB intake. I used 1/2 tank water and 1/2 SSW to start with. I feed about 1/4 of a cube of cyclops each day and vacuum the bottom about an hour later. The system has been setup for 7 days. I originally had a 1 inch PJ cardinal.
<<Sounds fine so far>>
On the fourth day the QT was set up in my main tank, my 1.5 inch ocelaris clown decided my 7 inch Dersa clam would make a great host.
<<These fish never cease to amaze me in what they choose as a host>>
This hosting really bothered the clam and he kept shutting and his mantel wouldn't extend. I decided to put the clown into the QT to let the clam recover which he did immediately. I plan on selling the clam since he has grown much to large for my tank. In two years he grew from 2 to 7 inches!
<<Very good growth indeed>>
On the day I added the clown, I did a 50% water change using water from my main tank. I have been testing the ammonia with the API test kit and it has been very close to zero maybe around .07 until today, day 7. It is now between .0 and .25. I would guess the level is around .15. The two fish are acting normally and show no signs of disease. The PH is 8.2 and the temperature is 79 degrees. Today I added a few pieces of grape caulerpa hoping it would absorb some ammonia.
<<Sounds fine to me>>
These are my questions. 1) is this level of ammonia ok? I noticed you recommend water changes when levels near 1 but what about lower levels?
<<Yes, its fine>>
I found a study that said 48hr LD50 in Atlantic silversides was in the 1.5 range but I'm not keeping Atlantic silversides! 2) should I do water changes
with new SSW or old tank water? I use RO/DI with a TDS of 0 and IO salt.
<<New saltwater>>
3)what would be the maximum stocking density for a QT this size?
<<What you currently have it at>>
4) Do I count 21 days from when I added the PJ or the clown?
<<From when the cardinal was added>>
It seems I don't need start the QT over if I added a healthy animal from my main tank. 5) Should I add LR from my main system and if the fish do get sick will I need to boil this rock?
<<No, PVC pipework is more than adequate for the quarantine tank>>
6)Should I stop feeding the tank?
<<Feeding every other day should suffice>>
7)On an unrelated note, could I keep a very small 1-2in yellow or blue tang if I take him back to the LFS when he gets 2+ inches and if now what could I keep in my tank that eats grape Caulerpa? (total water vol is 45 gallons with a 10g fuge).
<<I would not, no, sorry to say>>
Thank you so much in advance!
<<Thanks for the questions, I hope this helps. A Nixon>>

Anorexic Butterflies & QT process--Correction  4/7/08
Hello again,
Realized the Second main paragraph might not make sense, It should have  read in part as follows: Sorry for the confusion.
...The QT is monitored for ammonia twice daily, and has registered .25 mg/l at 24 hours, .5 at 48 hours and .75 at 70 hours.
<To degrees toxic at all concentrations>
The QT is treated with a dose of Prime (according to label to bind ammonia of .6mg/l at 24 hours and 45 hours and a double dose at about 64 hours.
<Mmm... okay>
The fish are removed with as little extra water as possible (plastic clear container, no net) at under 72 hours...
<Good technique. Will have to look for whoever responded previously (did they?)... but in reviewing your prev. email, this looks like a solid protocol/plan. BobF.>
Hello,
Thank you for your site, it has been a wealth of information for new saltwater fish hobbyists such as myself.
I have two questions, one as relates to your comments on my quarantine process, and two as relates to non-eating butterfly fish.
I purchased the following from Saltwaterfish.com. They arrived 7 days ago, and were drip acclimated over 2-3 hours and placed into a 17 gal quarantine tank made up of water transferred from my main tank:
parameters 1.023, PH 8.15, Temp 78, Ammonia Zero, Nitrates between 0 and 2.5. The quarantine tank (QT) is bare bottomed, has a few colored hard plastic cups for hiding, dark construction paper on three sides and the bottom, and has a hang on filter with ammonia absorbing pad. The new arrivals include a 3.5 inch Pearlscale Butterfly, a 3 inch Punctato Butterfly, a 2.5 inch (was expecting it to be between 3 and 4 inches) Pakistani Butterfly, a 3 inch thin Dragon Goby
<I'd summarily move this animal and get it solid, high-protein food-feeding ASAP>
and a 1 inch Skunk Cleaner Shrimp.
The QT was treated with 500 mg Chloroquine diphosphate fully dissolved before fish placement. The QT is monitored for ammonia twice daily, and has registered .25 mg/l at 24 hours, .5 at 48 hours and .75 at 36 hours. The QT is treated with a dose of Prime (according to label to bind ammonia of .6mg/l at 24 hours and 45 hours and a double dose at about 30 hours. The fish are removed with as little extra water as possible (plastic clear container, no net) at under 36 hours and transferred to a new QT with the same parameters from main tank (new dose of Chloroquine and all). Filter, tanks and reusable objects in the tank are treated in dilute bleach, then rinsed, then soaked in prime treated water and dried before reuse. Overhead light only on for short time before, during and after feeding attempts for observation and feeding. This new QT tank rotation has been repeated three times so far. My thinking on this was to remove with a high degree of confidence any Velvet, White Ich or Black Ich present on the fish before entrance to main tank. (This was used successfully with a pair of Heniochus Butterflies a few months previously, one of which arrived with two white dots on its fins about 0.5 mm size, which disappeared from the fish between day 3 and 5 of QT and has not showed back up after transfer to main tank.) Do you see any weak link in this plan?
Second question involves the fish themselves. The Pearlscale arrived with many black dots on its side, as of day 7 in QT3, they are all gone, and it appears to be very healthy -- has been eating everything I offer including Formula Two pellets. It is mildly pushy with the Punctato, but appears to ignore the Pakistani. The Dragon Goby, which arrived thin but with no lesions noted so far, has filled out with good feeding and is doing great also. The Pakistani arrived with one 0.6 mm white dot on its rear fin and pectoral fin and two fuzzy 1 mm white lesions on lower fin edge. As of day 7, only the white fin edge lesions remain.
The Pakistani has not been eating. It ate 2 Mysis offered 20 hours or so after arrival, and 2 live brine shrimp offered day 6 in the a.m (in QT2). and 2-3 more offered that p.m.(in QT3) The Punctato arrived with no lesions, is swimming just fine, but has only eaten 1-2 Mysis offered on that first day. I have tried the following so far over the last 7 days: Mysis offered at least every other day, Formula Two pellets, fresh clam on the half shell, fresh mussel in shell (diced up), diced squid, a seafood medley of shrimp/whitefish/Nori/clam all slenderized and lastly live brine shrimp. The Pearlscale and Goby are in heaven and will eat everything offered, but the Pakistani and Punctato are fasting. I have tried a few drops of fresh squeezed garlic water and also Entice by Seachem. (I have been unable to find Selcon, which I see recommended on your site, anywhere locally). The Punctato goes crazy swimming rapidly around the tank with the Entice, but does not eat.
Neither Pakistani nor Punctato have any mouth lesions that I can see.
The Pakistani frequently goes and sits with its sides near the Cleaner Shrimp, did stare at the clam shell put in the tank, has rubbed its gill/side area intermittently on a few shells added on day 7 and its gill rate is more rapid than the other fish, but does not appear in distress. Unless I see anything else problematic, my plan is to move the Pearlscale, Dragon Goby and Cleaner Shrimp to the main tank at day 9 since they appear healthy and their presence may be affecting the two anorexic ones; and move the Pakistani and Punctato into a new 10 Gal QT treated with 250 mg Metronidazole and not move them to main tank till eating and well. Do you have any other feeding or treatment suggestions?
<Mmm, just to move all along expeditiously... through this process and to your main system in a minimum of time... with live rock et al. there>
Am I right to think that if they are not eating in the QT, they are unlikely to eat in the main tank?
<Mmm, no... much more likely to commence feeding in the main display>
Thanks for comments on my QT process and suggestions on feeding anorexic Butterfly fish.
Joe
<The non-feeding... due to collection, handling stress, isolation in small, bare settings is par for this course... Finish the quarantine and move them. B>

Quarantine absolutely every thing! 3-24-08
Hi Bob
<<Hi Jen, BobF is out for a few weeks so I’ll be filling in for him on this query.>>
I've been a silent fan/visitor of WetWebMedia for years and have learnt so much from you but I still make terrible mistakes from time to time.
<<Eh...who doesn’t?>>
I have your book and counted myself a reasonable fish keeper but boy was I wrong! I had a yellow tang 7 years, a harlequin tusk 6 years and a blue face angel 4 1/2 years and I have just killed them all by my stupidity! I want to warn others that you just MUST quarantine EVERYTHING you want to put in your tank!!
<<A good warning that I hope other hobbyists will take under serious consideration and I apologize that you had to learn the hard way, though I am glad you did learned it.>>
I always quarantine fish and corals because of what I have learned from you but I made the fatal mistake of putting 2 pieces of live rock in my tank plus some plant life into my sump to lower nitrates. This alone has been enough to introduce disease into my tank. All 3 of my precious fish have succumbed to what I think is Cryptocaryon irritans (white spot) but might be Amyloodinium.
<<Mmm…do see our FAQS/articles on WWM re disease on this, so that you get perform a proper diagnosis in the future.>>
I’m not sure, does it matter as they are all dead now and buried together in my garden. I am having nightmares about these fish because I know I killed them when. You already warn to quarantine everything but success very often breeds contempt!
<<Agreed.>>
If this saves just one fish from this awful death then it will have been worthwhile. I know this might sound over the top but the longer you keep a fish alive the harder it is to lose it especially when it’s your own fault!
<<Again Jen, I am sorry you had to learn the lesson this way but I applaud you for your open mind and thank you for sharing this anecdote with us.>>
Jen
<<-Adam_J.>>

Disease Question…How Long To Hold In Quarantine “After” Lymphocystis? – 03/19/08
Hey guys and gals-
<<Hey, Jay…Eric here this AM>>
I hope all is well with the crew.
<<Haven’t heard otherwise, so will assume so…thanks>>
I just have a quick question about cauliflower, (Lymphocystis). I adopted a Sailfin tang with cauliflower about 45 days ago from a pet store.
<<I see>>
She went straight into a Bio Cube aquarium for quarantine and has, (thanks to aggressive water changes and proper nutrition), made a complete recovery, (no more 'polyps').
<<Very good…and often all that is needed>>
I have treated many fish before (Ich and what-not), but this is my first cauliflower case.
<<You seem to have done well with it>>
Everything that I have read says that treatment is quarantine, time and good water quality (that I knew already), but I can't find any info on how long she needs to be in a QT.
<<Hmm…>>
How long should she stay in quarantine -after the spots are gone- before I can put her into my main tank?
<<A good question… Considering this malady is thought to be only very slightly (if at all) infectious; and the root cause is environmental (poor water quality/diet), this fish could be removed from quarantine and added/returned to a healthy and properly fed display tank within a few days of “clearing up”…though you might want to consider giving it a week to “just be sure” the fish’s immune system has indeed recovered>>
She has been clear for about 10 days now.
<<Should be plenty of time, in my opinion>>
Thanks!
-Jay
<<Happy to share. EricR>>

Re: Large Angelfish et. al... QT method...  – 03/07/08
Thank you.
One final question. I assume I should be QTing one fish per tank?
I have a 37 gallon tank that I would like to QT a pair of Golden butterflies, but do not know if this is an acceptable practice.
thanks
Kirk
<Temperament and physiology need to be taken into account... the Chaetodons are fine together here. Bob Fenner>

Should I keep treating? SW Quarantine...  2/29/08
Hi everyone,
<Melissa>
Thanks for the great work with the site. I spend hours reading each day. I have a question about a possible bacterial infection. About a week ago I purchased 5 blue-green Chromis and a Sixline Wrasse. After a freshwater and Methylene Blue dip they were placed in quarantine. The next day all fish were eating well, although I did notice one Chromis hanging out near the top away from the group. The next day a different Chromis had some red spots (I thought it may have been from netting and shipping).
<Likely so>
This developed into his tail rotting, discoloration, missing scales and cottony material in the area. I thought it might have been a fungal or bacterial infection and started to treat with Pimafix.
<...>
The next day he died and I noticed the Chromis that had been hanging out near the top had stopped eating and his tail was starting to rot and he also had red spots. I did some research on your site and after a 50% water change, decided to treat with Jungle Fungus Eliminator (at double dose).
<Mmmmmm>
The second Chromis died today. The remaining three have no visible spots, are swimming and eating well. The Sixline, however, stopped eating today (before medication was added). He doesn't show any other symptoms, but since this was the first the others displayed I am wondering if I should keep treating and for how long.
<I would not use either one of the products you mention>
Also, would you recommend daily water changes before adding the next dose and if so, what percentage?
<I would monitor ammonia, nitrite... change if either becomes appreciable. See here: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
the files on Quarantine...>
My last question is, after this is cleared up I would like to replace the two Chromis that have died. Would you recommend extending the stay for the three that are left and adding the new two to the quarantine with them or should I move the current three fish out, quarantine the new Chromis and add later (I wasn't sure if this would cause problems with bullying or acclimation to the group).
<I would do the latter>
Thanks for you help!
Melissa
<Welcome! And good that you isolated the new Chromis. Bob Fenner>

Re: Quarantine, methods    2/24/08
Hey Bob, Todd again
Everything's going great now, thanks to your insight and WWM!!! I've learned a lot from you (fish stuff and English!! Haha!!) and with months of reading on your web site!!! I'm on it at least once a day!!!
<Me too!>
I have 2 clowns, blue tang, purple tang, copper band and 4 neon gobies in my 120 gallon, and everyone looks and are doing great!! I dip everyone in a freshwater/formalin dip for about 10 minutes (1 ounce 37% formalin to 5 gallons water), and then quarantine for 40 days, and then same dip before main display. Everything's been going great so far, I haven't seen any diseases in the quarantine tank or in the main display. But I'm sure eventually I will end up with something a some point in time that I will have to deal with!!
<Let's try to avoid>
So for the future, say I end up with itch or velvet in my quarantine and I need to treat with copper or formalin for 40 days. I know you don't recommend formalin for long periods of time, but for the copper sensitive fish what else is there that's guarantied to work?
<Posted>
In all that I have read when using copper or formalin is that they will kill the biofilter and all the nitrifying bacteria in the tank and that the protein skimmer (because it sucks up the meds) should be removed from the quarantine tank. So in that case should all filtration just be removed when using copper or formalin, because its not going to do anything anyways?
<Mmm, no... is of some use>
Is there anything else I can do to keep the ammonia down besides water changes, light feeding and vacuuming everything I see out of the tank, I have a 30 gallon quarantine and if a 6" fish becomes sick and I have to treat it say with copper, I'll probably have to do like 100% water changes once a day. What do you do in this situation and you have to treat with copper or formalin for a 40 day period?
<Water changes...>
You think it would make that big of a difference with keeping the ammonia in check if I had say a 100 gallon quarantine with just power heads and air stones and no filtration for treating with copper or formalin for 40 days?
<Mmm, not much... better to have the 100 gallons in water for change outs...>
I'm going to start adding some inverts soon and in your book you suggest using iodine for dipping corals before quarantine, is iodine ok for SPS, LPSs, soft corals, mushrooms, zoo's, polyps and Featherdusters?
<Yes>
Is there any other dip or anything that I can add to the 40 day fishless quarantine to help these guys get rid of the bad guys?
<Slightly lowered (a thousandth perhaps) spg. to aid in absorption>
Besides setting them off of the bottom and picking anything I see off of them or out of the aquarium.
Also can I use the iodine on crabs, shrimp, stars and snails before quarantine? And besides iodine (if you even can) and 40 day fishless quarantine, is there any other dips or anything that I can add to the 40 day quarantine to help these cleaner crew guys out?
Thanks again Bob for your time and insight!!!!!! You've been a great help!!!!!
<Welcome. BobF>

Algae control and quarantine  2-10-08
Dear WetWebMedia Email Answerers,
<Mike here>
We have had our tank (set-up below) for almost 3 months. We have been reading your site the whole time and thank you for the time you have spent providing information.
<Sure thing - this website is an excellent source of info>
We recently purchased Drs. Calfo's and Fenner's book - Reef Invertebrates.
<I have an autographed copy ;)>
We love the book and have learned a great deal from it. We believe we have the information we need to move forward, but we would like to clarify a few things first. Here is our tank set-up:
55 gallon
38 lbs of live rock
60 lbs of sand
2 maxi-jet 1200 powerheads
Fluval 305 filter
We are planning to purchase a protein skimmer today.
<A skimmer is highly recommended. So is more water flow, and make sure the laminar flows from the powerheads and returns are pointed to produce as much random turbulent flow as possible>
Livestock:
6 Nassarius snails
2 Astrea snails
2 turbo snails
3 blue-legged hermit crabs
1 red-legged hermit crab
2 emerald green hermit crabs
1 fire blood shrimp
1 cleaner shrimp
1 spotted mandarin fish
2 maroon clownfish
1 rose bubble tip anemone
<That mandarin is going to slowly starve with the little live rock you have in your tank. I would immediately work on a refugium, and try to get the mandarin eating prepared foods. I would also purchase copepods as a supplement - I've used www.Reed-Mariculture.com in the past with excellent service>
The tank did not get any livestock for about 1 month. Then we started to add the Nassarius snails, Astrea snails, and crabs (not all at once - a little at a time). Fish and shrimp and anemone were just added about 2 weeks ago.
The turbo snails were added a week ago. Our plan is for few fish, mostly invertebrates (corals, 1 clam, starfish? - not sure on that one having read the Invertebrates book).
<Educate yourself regarding the lighting/feeding of (I assume) Tridacnid spp. before purchasing>
All of our water checks have been good, including checks for phosphates. We have it checked at the store, but are purchasing our own test kit today.
<What is "good"? Numbers are always encouraged when sending us questions. You should have already purchased a complete set of test kits, but better late than never>
All is going well and everyone is getting along well. Our biggest problem is algae. We have a fair amount of what we think is green algae. It looks like the picture of Chlorodesmis in the Invertebrates book. If it is this, we understand it is good, but we don't want it to fill the tank and it is spreading. We also have brown hair alga on the back tank wall and a small amount of Cyanobacteria. We have been removing the Cyanobacteria as best we can using a suction tube when we do water changes. We had been doing them about monthly, but plan to start doing them more often (1/week or so).
<Nuisance alga is *always* an indicator of excessive dissolved organics and usually lack of water motion, as well>
Problem 1: Algae - We know this comes with a new tank. We think the protein skimmer will help. We think more often water changes will help.
<Yes, and yes. Don't be afraid to perform large water changes every week - I tend to perform 50% water changes/week in every marine aquarium I've owned - just make sure the fresh saltwater is the same temp/pH/salinity, and well mixed/aerated>
Question 1: Our filter has 3 carbon sacs we change with the water 1x/month.
Can we change 1 sac at a time and do it more often (1x/week)? Will that help with algae?
<Quality carbon should last at least a month after the cycle is complete - Seachem Matrix carbon is great if you want a recommendation>
Question 2: We are considering getting a kole or chevron tang to help with the green algae. Is the tank large enough for him with 3 other fish?
<This aquarium is really too small for any tang species>
It seems he will eat the green algae and mysis shrimp. We feed our clownfish defrosted mysis shrimp (alternating plain with some that have Spirulina mixed in). Will that be ok for him or will he need something else?
Question 3: Kind of related to algae - what is the best method for straining the frozen food to get the water out? Our feeding routine is: we defrost 1 cube of food in a small amount of tank water (in a small container) and pour out as much water as we can. Then we feed 1/2 of the food and refrigerate the other 1/2 until the next day. We feed with a turkey baster. We supplement our anemone and shrimp with small pieces of krill (1-2x/week).
<Pour through a kitchen strainer or piece of cloth>
Problem 2: Quarantine - We know we should quarantine the fish for 21+ days.
Question 1: What should we feed the kole tang while in quarantine?
<Don't purchase a tang>
If he eats algae off live rock, and live rock can not be in quarantine, how do we proceed?
Question 2: We already have a small (10 gal) tank set-up with some live rock, a sponge filter, air tank, no sand, but some detritus and PVC small pipes. Some of the live rock will go to the main tank in a few weeks to 1 month, after it has cured a bit. The main purpose of the tank is that we are trying to grow some copepods for the main tank. It has only been set-up for 1 week (using water from our last water change). We know fish can not be quarantined in this tank with the live rock. But would this be a good tank for quarantining the coral? Or will that cause a problem with the water/rock in there?
<I wouldn't use LR in a quarantine tank at all, turn it into a refugium instead, and set up a separate system for QT>
Question 3: Would a second similar set-up (to the one above) be good for a fish quarantine?
<Yes>
Question 4: Do we put copper in the water with the fish in quarantine even if the fish is not showing any symptoms? Or is it ok to just treat if we see problems?
<Preventative treatment with a less stressful medicine such as methylene blue would be fine, but I would never representatively treat with copper>
Thank you for your time. Please let me know if I have not been clear about something.
<I was lenient with you because you are new to the hobby, but the answers to all of your questions could have been found with more perusal of our archives. Do take the time to educate yourself with the resources available here>
Sincerely,
Jessica
<M. Maddox>

Quarantine Procedure  1/25/08
Hi,
<Hey there! Scott F. with you, on the road again...>
Thanks for the quick response on my canister filter question. I would like to bother you with one last query. When using a fresh water dip for a new fish before going into the quarantine tank should methylene blue or any other medication be used in the dip if there are no visible problems.
Again, thanking you in advance
Shawn
<Well, Shawn, it is certainly possible to use medications or additives in freshwater dips. I have typically employed methylene blue in prophylactic dips, and I know other hobbyists who use medicated freshwater dips (using agents such as Formalin) for disease treatment (for specific conditions, such as Ich, etc. In general, I would not use a medication as a prophylactic, unless I was treating for a specific disease. Far better to employ a straight freshwater dip, with or without an agent such as methylene blue, and then release the fish into a dedicated quarantine system. I'm happy to hear that you are embracing a quarantine protocol. It's so easy to do- and has such a beneficial impact on your overall hobby success. Best of luck to you! Regards, Scott F.>
 

QT Procedures and Ich Treatment 12/4/07 I have a 75 gal tank that I recently set up about 2 months ago. I am new to this part of fish keeping, although had cared for freshwater for 8 years. I now know I should have quarantined my fish before putting them in my tank. <Yep> I put a sixline wrasse, blenny, firefish, coral beauty, two percula clowns, and a pajama cardinal in at first. <Too much too fast here, need to slow down the stocking.> They all seemed fine until I put a yellow tang in. He also looked good until after a week, when I noticed white spots. At this time I started doing some research, and found this great sight. My two clowns have come up with a few spots and that is it, the rest look fine. <Are still infected most likely.> I have quarantined my tang, but am wondering how I should go about treating them. I only have a 10 gal QT which is entirely too small for all these fish. I cant afford another one at this time. <Perhaps a large Rubbermaid food-grade container would be more budget friendly.> Would it be as effective to take my live rock and inverts out and place them in my QT for about 4 weeks while I treat my display tank with copper, or is it only effect to remove fish, treat them with copper and let main tank fallow for 6-8 wks. <The latter, copper can be difficult to remove from an aquarium, and your substrate would have to be removed also. More problems here than its worth. Best bet is to figure out a way to house all fish outside the main tank.> Also I was wondering if you recommend a UV sterilizer? I have one but many hobbyist have told me that they kill more beneficial organisms than bad. What is your opinion? <I don't think they are terribly effective in most cases, they need just the right flow rate and contact time to really work and most are not able to provide that. Also they are not capable of curing most things alone, and treatment is still necessary. As far as doing more harm than good, this I do not agree with, I don't see much downside to them, although their upside is limited as well.> I hope your holidays are great, and thanks for any feedback Evert <Welcome> <Chris> Re: QT Procedures and Ich Treatment 12/4/07 Chris, <Hello> Thanks for your great advice. <Welcome, although probably not that great.> Ok right now I am treating with kick-ick, have you heard of this? <Yes, 5-nitroimidazoles, I do not believe it to be terribly effective.> It seems to be working, although I know the parasites come and go anyways. <Most likely just it's lifecycle.> Should I continue treating with this reef/invert safe treatment, and if at 3 weeks time they are still present, then should I treat with Copper, or should I just do that right away. <I would discontinue its use and set up a proper QT tank. The problem here is that the clowns and tang are sensitive to copper, I may use formalin here instead.> How long do you suggest leaving my fish in a FW dip with Meth Blue (10 Minutes)? <As long as they don't freak out too bad this should be ok.> The other question I have is one of my beloved Percula Clowns has a white blister looking thing below his lip that he developed about two days ago. Is this a fungus, or possibly just from scratching. <Could be a bacterial infection due to some physical trauma, fungus is pretty rare in the salt water side of the hobby.> How can I tell, and if it is a fungus, whats the best way to treat this. <Right now I would not use any additional treatment due to the ich medication, good water quality and appropriate food is the best course here.> Can he be treated with other fish? <For ich, yes.> The last question of this e-mail is when setting up my QT should I use water from my display tank, being its cycled, <Water does not really cycle, that occurs on solid surfaces.> or just use RO water and change water weekly while it cycles. <Probably will need daily water changes, and you can start with either, the ich treatment will make it irrelevant.> Thanks so much again. <Welcome, and check out these FAQs and related articles for more. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/clndiscrypt.htm http://www.wetwebmedia.com/crypttangs.htm .> <Chris> Re: QT Procedures and Ich Treatment 12/5/07 Chris, I just want to thank you again. <Welcome> This really is not a question, but I just want to make sure I have this right. Ok so this is how I go about treating my fish with ick, correct? First I get two QT tanks set up with proper parameters for my load of fish. Then I catch the fish, giving them a FW dip in Meth Blue. At this time I put them in the QT tank. In this tank I treat one tank with copper (Cupramine) and the other with containing more sensitive fish (tang and clowns) with Formalin (Rid Ick+). I do this for two weeks while at same time raising temperature to about 82 degrees and lowering SG to about 1.019. <Leave the SG at normal levels, 1.019 is not low enough to help eradicate the ich, but low enough to stress the fish, normal levels are better here.> After two weeks I should begin to bring back these levels back to normal. Then let fish sit and be observed for the next 4-6 weeks while my display tank continues to complete fallowing for a total of 6-8 weeks. At this time do another PH adjusted FW dip with Meth Blue before introducing fish to display tank. I hope I have this right, cause I have read about every article on this over past few days, lol. <Seems like you got it.> Do you think a 10 gal tank to house a yellow tang (small) and two Percula clowns, and a 20 gallon tank to house a firefish, pajama cardinal, lawnmower blenny, coral beauty, and sixline wrasse would be too much for bio-load if I do a 10% water change with RO water daily? <Should be for this time frame, just make sure to have plenty of hiding spots for them (PVC pipe works well).> The last question is while I'm catching these fish will it be alright to take LR out and place on towel for that time, or will the time in air kill the live bacteria? <Should be no problem.> Thanks much, Evert. <Seems like you have a good plan here.> <Chris>

Quarantine Question, Marine Ich 11/29/07
Hi crew,
<Hello>
I have a question concerning quarantine procedure. I have all my fishes including a purple tang in hospital for ich. I am dosing with Coppersafe at 5ml per 4 gallons of water.
<Careful treating Tangs with copper, they generally do not handle it well.>
I plan to keep this up for 4 weeks. How can I be sure that my fishes are ich free at the end of the QT period?
<Keep them in QT for at least 4 weeks after the treatment is finished, most likely ich would show itself before then.>
I understand ich can still be in the gills even if it isn't visible on the fish. If my fishes are not scratching and there are no visible signs of ich for 4 weeks can we say that ich is eradicated?
<Not for sure, but is most likely the case.>
I am asking because this is my third time fighting this parasite in the last 6 months. I attribute my past failed attempts to improper QT procedure.
<The most common cause.>
I have since made some improvements including keeping all equipment and supplies dedicated to QT and testing and maintaining copper levels. Oh, and can you tell me if it is at all possible to eradicate ich completely from tangs?
<Can be done, the problem is that copper treatments are not tolerated well by tangs so other methods need to be used.>
I have heard opinions to the contrary and need to hear it from WWM. Thanks a lot!
<With proper procedures it can be done.>
Stan Young
<Chris>

Dwarf Angel Fin Rot, quarantine methods f'  – 11/17/07
Hello,
<Greg>
I am fighting a losing battle with a case of fin rot on a dwarf angelfish in a 10 gallon Q/T. The fish did fine in Q/T for about 10 days but then started getting ragged fins.
<Maybe simply the quarantine experience>
The fins were just literally disintegrating a small amount each day. I started treating with Kanamycin (SeaChem Kanaplex) every 48 hours, but after 3 days the fins continue to erode at a faster rate. The fish is eating fine
<A very good sign>
and all water parameters look good as I have a full biological filter which is surviving the Kanamycin treatment. Ammonia and nitrite are zero 3 days into treatment. I did go without chemical filtration for about a week. But once the fin rot started, I filtered with carbon and PolyFilter for about 1/2 day and did a 25% water change before starting the Kanamycin. I am concerned the Kanamycin is not working and I am wasting valuable time to save the fish. Should I continue with the Kanamycin and if so for how long? Or should I switch to a different antibiotic for fin rot? At
a loss here as I have used Kanamycin successfully for fin rot before.
Thanks,
Greg
<I would discontinue the Kanamycin, not try other antibiotics... I would summarily pH adjust and freshwater dip and place this animal in the main display. Please see here and the linked files above for the thinking/rationale here: http://wetwebmedia.com/dips_baths.htm
Further quarantining will not likely grant you anything... other than a more-stressed specimen. The root cause of the "rot" is likely non-pathogenic. Bob Fenner>

Melafix in the main tank, Improper QT methods 10/23/07
Hello,
<Hi>
I have a 125 gallon FOWLR. Specifics on the tank are: 6in live DSB, about 100lbs of live rock, and 2 sumps (a 20 gallon and a 30 gallon). The 30 gallon contains a refugium with live sand, live rock, macro algae and a orange spotted goby. The 20 gallon houses my protein skimmer in one chamber and a return pump in the other. Water from the refugium drains into the return pump chamber. Current inhabitants of the main tank include: 1 tiger wardi goby, 1 juvenile Koran angel, 1 powder brown tang, & many Nassarius snails. The tang was the most recent addition, after a quarantine period of two plus weeks in the refugium.
<Not a good way to do it. QTing a fish is as much for the protection of the current residents as much as the new addition. Needs to be in a completely separate system, otherwise disease will be transferred between the refugium and the main tank.>
Soon after I put the tang in, one of the angel's eye became puffy and cloudy. The tang seems to be brushing against the sand more now that he is in the main tank.
<Water quality? Any other signs of possible parasite infection?>
Do you recommend treating the entire system with Melafix?
<I never recommend treating the main tank with anything, and Melafix is pretty worthless anyways. These fish need to be removed to a separate hospital tank if they need to be treated for something.>
The manufacturer states that the product is reef safe but I am not sure if anything in the refugium will be affected.
<Very well may, and the product will not help the fish either.>
My second question is, given my livestock and system, would you recommend me adding a flying gurnard in the future?
<No, see here http://www.wetwebmedia.com/flyinggurnardfaqs.htm for details.>
Thank you for your time and advice.
Kiet
<Welcome>
<Chris>

Quarantine Procedures 10/16/07
Hello
<Hi>
Love the site, the best I've come across by far!!!!
<Thanks>
I have a few questions I was wondering if you could clear up for me?
<Will try>
I learned my lesson not having a quarantine tank, but I now have one and my 120 G has been going fallow for about two months now (bad case of the ick), I think I might let it go till Dec before I add fish just to make sure!!! (You think its worth the wait or is 2 months good?)
<8 weeks should be fine.>
I was told by the LFS that ick came go dormant, if so how long would you need to wait to add fish to the infected tank?
<Its lifecycle is abut 4 weeks, with no host they will die.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm >
And also if I wanted to use some of my supplies (test tubes, buckets, gravity testers etc.) between my quarantine tank and my two other tanks. What's the sure best sure way to kill everything by disinfecting? I've heard hot water, should I run hot water over and through the pieces or submerge in bucket, if so how long is good to kill everything.
<Needs to dry completely as well, while hot water is probably enough in most cases I would not be comfortable using this method alone.>
And I've also heard of using bleach, should I be submerging in bucket also, and also how long to kill everything?
<This is the better way, submerge for a few hours, rinse well, let it dry completely. Treating it with dechlorinator after is not a bad idea either.>
I just would rather not have to buy 3 sets of equipment if I don't have to.
<Better to have separate equipment, otherwise 1 mistake and you have reinfected your tank.>
When is the best time for my freshwater dips, when I first get the fish before quarantine or after quarantine right before I put fish in main display?
<Before QT>
Or should I be doing both??
<Could>
During quarantine should I be treating with copper or other meds even if I do not see any problems?
<No, only treat when necessary.>
If so what do you recommend? I know meds are not always healthy for the fish. But the reason I ask is that I have read that fish can be infected with ick etc., but not show any symptoms until stressed.
<They will most likely show signs in a QT tank if closely watched.>
In that case couldn't you quarantine a fish for 30 days and not see any symptoms, put in main display and then pass lets say ick to a more prone weaker fish and have the nightmare start all over?
<Yes, but most likely would show signs before introduction.>
And a liverock question. On my reef tanks I've always ran my compacts for 10 to 12 hours and my halides for 4 to 5 hours in the middle of my compact lighting. On my FOWLR 120 G I have 2-175 14K halides, I don't ever really plan on having any coral or any thing in there, I just like the look of the shimmer effect and the color of the halides, But I do want to have alot of nice coralline algae to grow and cover the rock. What's the minimum time I can have my halides on to get the coralline growth can I get away with 4 to 5 hours a day or do I need them on for 10 to 12 hours for that coralline growth?
<Coralline will grow in most any light.>
And last of all a fish question. Is there any kind of coral, polyp, urchin, invert etc. or anything non fish that you can put in with Triggers, Puffers, and Eels? I figure no but I thought I'd ask while I had you.
<Not much these fish will not sample.>
Thanks so much for the info,
Danielle
<Welcome>
<Chris>

Re: Quarantine Procedures, Identification, Coralline Growth 10/16/07
Hello again, thanks for all the info!!! One more question for you, kind of a weird one, I have never read about this one anywhere.
<Fire away>
When I had that last ick case I had a yellow tang that was the last fish to die and I didn't get him out of the tank right away because he died deep into all the live rock, a week or two later I noticed alot of things growing on the black walls of the tank, down the overflow chamber, in the sump and on some of the live rock, not so much on the front clear wall. If I would have counted them there would? have been? probably 200 to 300 of them, they were everywhere. They looked like 1/4" to 1/2" white magnets or sacks, most of them standing long ways outward from glass or rock, and on the outward end away from glass or rock had kind of a flower looking end with like 6 to 7 skinny petals or fingers, kind of like a flower duster with fewer fingers and not as full. They don't move at all sitting there or when they are touched, just sway a little in the current. I stripped down the whole tank and got rid of 99% of them, but I have just noticed a few? on the live rock here and there. Do you know what they are? How to get rid of them? Is it safe to add a fish with them?
<Tough to guess from that description, maybe Aiptasia or a Hydrozoans. Whatever they are they were their population most likely grew due to the nutrients released as the tang decomposed. I would guess it is safe to add fish but impossible to be sure depending on what they are.>
And in reference to coralline growth question earlier, will the coralline growth be quicker and cover more of the rock with the light on for?10 to 12 compared to 4 to 5 hours?
<The longer usually the more growth, although different colors of coralline grown at different rates depending on light amount and wavelength.>
Thanks again for all the info and the great website!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Danielle
<Welcome>
<Chris>

Analysis of Fish death in QT... You read it and tell me   10/12/07
O boy. I've lost 2 fish (French angel and a royal Gramma) I've been keeping in QT and basically I'm curious as to why and how to prevent this from happening again
Here are some of the facts :
I'm keeping them in a large red plastic bucket (around 15-20 gallon).
<Heated, filtered? Recirculated? Treated in some way?>
Both fish HAS been eating up to 8 hours before perishing.
<Have...>
Temp has been fine fluxing a few degrees at max.
<Fahrenheit? In how much time?>
pH was 8 (on Salifert) and 8.3ish on aquarium pharmaceutical ph test.
I've been having to add a LOT of pH buffer (the Kent 8.3) daily (at least 1/2 a scoop morning and evening) <-- is this normal?
<To add this much or buffer period? I would NOT do this... such changes should be made gradually, through changed-out water that has been modified ahead of use>
The pH over the week in the tub drops to 7.7ish nightly (off API ph test)
<Good that you're checking>
Salinity I was lowering from 1.02 to 1.014 over 2 days.. and was about to lower it again to 1.010 the morning after discovery of death.
<... Am not a fan of such hyposalinity "treatments">
Ammonia/Nitrite/ undetectable (tetra test) Nitrate was "orange" so was about ~25ppm
<Too high... but likely to be expected under/with the circumstances>
I've also been dousing the tub with one of those chlorine/ammonia removing chemicals when I did the small water changes.
---
The French angelfish showed some sign of Ick with a few spots and cloudy fins (hence the low salinity) 5 days before death.
<Again...>
I FW dipped him for 5 minutes and when I placed him back into the tank.. he "nearly" died.
<... cumulative stress>
That night he lost his balance and let the current blow him against the rocks while upside down. The only thing I found wrong was the pH.. was so I added some buffer. Miraculously the next day he was OK and would eat the following day out of my hand (mostly formula 1/2) U can bet I was really happy.
The morning before death he showed a more severe ick infection... but oddly they were GONE in the afternoon.
<Cycled off...>
The Gramma was hiding so I let him be. (??? what happened I didn't treat him at all that day)
------
so that is the "history of the fish" ... but I managed to catch them in their deaths late at night.
2 hours before death the French would skulk near my powerhead/quick filter apparatus (instead of hiding in the PVC tubing). First problem I thought was pH but the readings were fine. I added 1/2 a teaspoon of buffer regardless (as I didn't trust API's accuracy)
What was bad news was that my royal Gramma came out of hiding to the powerhead/quick filter as well.
As they died .. the French angel was breathing hard 80+breath per min (I could not tell if my royal Gramma's pace was extra-high). I have both an aerator and a 402 Hagen pump in a 15-20 gallon bucket so I thought there should be decent circulation + oxygen.
The royal Gramma VERY oddly had one last "spaz-out" before he died.
Swimming to the top very quickly and changing it's direction randomly for a few seconds. After that, he was a goner. When I examined the bodies... there was NO sign of velvet/ick.. and that one of the royal Gramma's gill flap was open 45 degrees so that I could see his fleshy gill (red but looked normal to me)
---
So after reading that long post... can ANYONE tell me what caused them to die.. and how to prevent death in the future.
<... these fishes died from a combination of poor water quality, changing circumstances and protozoan infestation... You need to read... re Cryptocaryon... environmental manipulation for disease treatment... and how to select specimens period. Bob Fenner>

QT Tank question, treatments   9/7/07
Hi Bob,
Due to the recent loss of my Bellus Angel to a nasty form of Ick, I've taken your advice and set-up the 55 gallon tank to be fallow for the next three months. It's got a few hermits crabs, snails, pieces of live rock and sand left in it. Raised the temperature to 82 and lowered salinity to 1.019 which I'll lower more over time. I'm running the skimmer, filter, power heads and doing regular maintenance on it.
<Okay>
Also set-up a 10 gallon QT tank as prescribed in your web-site. In it I have two pieces of PVC pipe, a bio-wheel filter and air stone running. (The only thing in the bio-filter is a few of the bio-balls taken from my 150 tank). I used 5 gallons of the water from my 150 tank and 5 gallons of freshly made saltwater to get started. I'm keeping the tank running at 78 degrees and 1.020 salinity which I'm moving down slowly. The inhabitants in this tank are one small lawnmower blenny (1 inch) and two yellow-headed gobies (3 inches).
<All right...>
As they were in the 55 gallon tank with the sick Bellus, I am treating them with Quinine Sulfate as Formalin-3 didn't seem to help the Bellus.
<Is very close to cure or kill...>
I am feeding them then removing any leftover food and waste immediately with a turkey baster. Also doing 25% water changes every other day. My ammonia levels are running at .50. Is this okay as it seems the best I can do?
<Mmm, yes>
If not, should I add filter media that removes ammonia?
<No... will/would likely remove the Quinine>
I've already read that you find Amquel a weak alternative.
Also, my LFS said that the gobies should do fine without having any substrate to sift though. Sound like a good response to you?
<Yes... for treatment>
Thank you,
Gregory E. Esposito
<Let's hope your earnest plans work out fine here Greg. Life to you. BobF>

Hippos... Quarantine? – 08/17/07
Just a quick question... in Bob's book as well as on your website, it is suggested to place Hippo Tangs directly into the main display without quarantine to reduce the stress of multiple catch and release out of quarantine. Are you still of this opinion? In my past experience, a Hippo I had about 4yrs ago seemed to be a 'Crypt' magnet.
<Mmm, Paracanthurus are not "as bad" as such compared with many other Surgeonfish species... and my opinion is "it depends"... "IF" the specimen looks otherwise in good health, it can be isolated for a time... to assess its health... However, it can be peremptorily FW dipped and placed in most cases>
Would u expect a Hippo Tang, aside from adding nice colors to a tank,
assist in mowing done some green hair algae?
<Depends on the species of algae... not many are palatable... and many that look "Green" are not... are often BGA, which is entirely undesired>
I will be adding a Foxface after a 4 week quarantine which I'm thinking will further assist
in a green grassy hair algae problem. Note, the tank is 200gallons FOWLR.
David Brynlund
<Hotay! BobF>

Quarantine... using WWM   8/2/07
Hello!
Forgot to ask in my previous mail. should I quarantine snails and crabs too before adding them to the tank!!
Cheers
Gans
<Please learn to/use the search tool, indices on WWM. RMF>

Buddy System Technique in QT – 06/29/07
Dear Bob and Crew,
<Mike>
I did my homework, but was unable to find a clear answer or opinion on the following.
A question regarding the quarantining process, if you don't mind.
<Not at all>
I have noticed when quarantining my fish as I work through my stocking plan, that these fish all seemed miserable and stressed while in my QT, and not just for the first day or two.
<Not atypical>
It is a 10gal., 8-10lbs LR forming a tunnel / hideout, 1/2" Reef Sand, hang on filter with BioWheel (very quiet), and only half lit (which is not often - I use the room lights and dimmer when needed)
Temp 76, PH 8.2, No measurable signs of ammonia, nitrites or nitrates
Clowns just swam up and down in the same corner. They never even made it to the other end of a 10gal QT??
<Happens>
The Coral Beauty just hid underneath a rock completely out of sight the whole time. The Pixie Hawkfish would always run and hide, and always seemed nervous or skittish. (Not all fish at the same time, mind you)
All "seemed" (and I am not a marine psychologist) generally stressed and unhappy, IMO. ("IMO" - now that's proof that I've been reading WWM)
<An honest assessment, expression>
All of the above immediately seemed fine right after being moved to the main 72gal tank with LR, Reef Sand and a cleaning crew including a (Lysmata?) Fire Shrimp.
I have been watching their relationship with this shrimp in the main tank and became curious.
I am now quarantining an approx. 3" Longnose Butterfly in my QT and have tried something different this time. (Yes, I probably should have asked first)
I put another Fire Shrimp in my QT along with the Butterfly to see if it might make a difference in aiding the new addition in feeling less stressed while in this 10gal for a couple of weeks.
To my pleasant surprise, and with my above disclaimer in mind, I would have to say this Butterfly "appears to be" much more calm and relaxed, judging from it's behaviour.
It appears to be quite content in there, cruising around quietly, eating frozen Mysis after only two days, playing with it's reflection, and sleeping at night in the tunnel with the Shrimp.
This time, I am not getting the feeling that this environment is doing the fish more harm than good. I want to keep this Butterfly in quarantine for at least two weeks (Butterfly reputation?) and was concerned that if I placed this type of fish into an environment that was causing it stress and/or discomfort, that it may actually become unhealthy while in quarantine even if it wasn't unhealthy to begin with.
Does any of this make any sense at all to those of you who know about fish, or is this just a case of amateur imagination gone wild?
<I do believe you're spot on with the "calming influence" of the purposeful cleaner, companion here>
Is there any reason why I should not do this?
I realize that the fish will not be alone if he develops a health problem while in the QT, but I couldn't help but think that the calming effect of the shrimp in with the Butterfly might lessen the likelihood of stress induced health problems, or an inability to recover from a problem under stressful conditions and, therefore, the (potential) benefits would outweigh any (potential) risks.
Your thoughts, if any and as always, are greatly appreciated.
Thank you for your time.
Mike
<I too do consider the presence, companionship to be valuable here... As I frequently re-state... "Isolation/quarantine is NOT the same as treatment"... either as a system or process. Bob Fenner>

Nitrite Question, Copper murdered my nitrifying bacteria? (And QT) 6/7/07
Hello Crew.
<'Allo!>
I have a question about the effect of copper on nitrifying bacteria.
<Kills 'em.>
I have a 30 gallon marine QT/hospital tank that I cycled with two mollies.
<Poor mollies...>
I have since had to introduce my four fish---a tiny gold stripe maroon, a tiny blue hippo, a lawnmower blenny and a 3.5" yellow tang--into the hospital tank to allow my display tank to go fallow because my blue hippo got Ich (I know, I know . . .).
<Hope this is a big system we're talking about, 125g+ ???>
Of course, my ammonia and nitrites shot up - ammonia went from 0 to 2 ppm and nitrites went from 0 to 2.5 ppm. I'm treating the tank with copper (keeping it between .15 and .30 ppm, but boy are those tests hard to read!).
<Seachem?>
They've been in the tank 5 days.
The blue tang and maroon clown are happy as clams--you'd think they have known each other since birth. They seem totally unaffected by either the copper or ammonia/nitrite levels.
<I'm sure they are affected, whether or not it's apparent.>
The lawnmower blenny, who was perfectly healthy when I removed him from the display on Saturday, is now resting peacefully in pet heaven with my German shorthaired pointer.
The yellow tang is hanging in there--he hasn't eaten since entry into the tank and periodically leans over to one side, but he is responsive when I approach the tank, stick my hand in, etc., and he's alive every morning when the lights come on. His breathing is not labored, but I can tell he's not feeling great.
I have been doing 20% water changes daily and re-dosing to maintain proper copper levels.
<Hmm... maybe you should brush up on QT setups? http://www.wetwebmedia.com/QuarMarFishes.htm You need to be doing water changes that will keep the toxic byproducts of their respiration and feeding to a minimum. Usually 20% is not enough with four animals in a 30-gallon. >
Yesterday, I added Bio-Spira, which dropped my ammonia down to 0 overnight but my nitrites were still about 1.5-2.0 ppm this morning.
<Hmm, the addition of Bio-Spira is mostly moot at this point. As you are seeing, the copper has deleterious effects on the bacteria, and they won't properly establish in the presence of medication. This is a good reason to use the water from your main tank to dilute the toxins in the QT whenever testing indicates a need. Think of it as aggressive water-changes for your main system...>
My questions: What effect will the copper have on my nitrifying bacteria?
<See above.>
Do you recommend that I do multiple doses of Bio-Spira while I'm treating with copper?
<No doses would be fine.>
Do you recommend anything different with respect to the yellow tang to up his chances of survival?
<Just refine your approach to new species introduction in the future. I think you have taken a concerned and proactive approach to the current situation.>
My LFS will cure ich without chemicals (using an incredibly ingenious, patent-pending (no kidding) top secret method--I'd have to kill you if I told you how it works) for $5 per day.
<Per fish? What a racket! I should've thought of that one!>
I could send him there until I ran the copper treatment on the other two fish and then put him back in the QT, but it would certainly be cheaper to just buy another yellow tang (but what kind of father would I be??).
<Yes, we usually shy from relating importance of our livestock to their cash value...>
Thanks for your guidance.
<You are most welcome, but I bet you will do fine as you are. Do some google searching here on WWM and read as much as you can. In no time, you may be the one answering the Q's. >
Andy
<-GrahamT>