What appeared to be a fish bite is now spreading. No useful info.   9/5/06
You folks are the best, when all else fails and research does not answer the relative issue it is wonderful to have your help.
Here it is, my 80g reef tank has been up and stable for about 19 months, my levels have been consistent and I use RO water for changes.
About a week ago the royal Dottyback looked like he tussled with another fish.  His side appeared to be bit?  A few days later the wound seemed to heal but white film took its place.  Now the lyretail Anthias has what appears to be a bite Hole on its side, 2 days later white appeared around that sore.  They fish are acting normal and eat well.  I just cannot figure out what is going on. The other peaceful inhabitants seem stable. So far!
<Mmm, might be sign of recovery/healing, but could be a (secondary) infection>
I have made several 20% water changes. I hesitate to take more action without a clear idea of what the cause is.  I could never catch these fish with all of the rock. The biological balance is stable as are the health of the corals.  
Thank you in advance for sharing your knowledge.
Ellen
<... What re water quality? I would likely take the "boosted immunity through enhanced nutrition" route here... Please send along a pic, real data if/when you have them. Bob Fenner>

Marine... Ebola?!   7/25/06
I've agonized over writing you,
<Why? We're very approachable>
but I'm loosing
<And losing?>
my grip on saltwater and thought you might be able to help me.  These are my tanks:
#1 100 gallon - 6 months - 2 medium Lionfish, 2 Wrasses, 1 Tang, 1 Trigger.
#2 100   "       - 2 months - 1 Foxface, 1 Marine Betta, 1 Blue Tang.
180        "       - 4 months - 1 medium Puffer, 1 Yellow Tang, 1 Red Breasted Wrasse
I have two 20 gallon, two 10 gallon quarantine tanks for new fish and any sick fish.  I have 165 gallons of curing saltwater that is left for a week or more before using.
<Good>
Each of the tanks water tests are identical.  PH 8.2, Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 10 ppm,
Salinity 1023.  All fish are compatible.  Water changes are timely.  No overfeeding.
<Sounds good>
Here is the problem.   At any given time a new fish, whether he is in a quarantine tank or in #2 100 or the 180, developed gross looking eyes, parts of their bodies turn dark, and die within 48 hours.
<... yikes....>
The established fish are not affected at all.
<Habituated...>
The interesting part is that # 1 100 tank has never had any health issues, but I have never introduced any new fish to what is already there.  I'm at a loss.        Bob
   <Sounds like Mycobacterium... maybe M. marinum... take a read on the Net, WWM re... Bob Fenner>

Re: Marine... Ebola!   7/25/06
Thanks for your reply, Bob.  I should confess that I've lost 17 fish from three different providers, causing me to believe my environment had to be causing the deaths.
<Me too... something (universal) is very off... Perhaps a household spray cleaner use? Some contaminant in the decor/type of rock you're using in all three systems?. I would place a unit of Polyfilter in the filter flow path of these systems... see if you can't "pick up" some definitive color>
Most of the fish were either small (clowns, dwarf lion, spotted puffer, sailfin, etc.) or fragile fish (butterflies, angels, etc.)   
<Mmm, all should not perish at this quick rate...>
My quarantine tanks and equipment have been bleached.  My thought now is to bring an adult, more durable fish to see if it survives.
<Or... if I may suggest to your plan, slowly adding system water to the Quarantine tank... to see if this "acclimatizes" the new specimens>
If that works, from now on bringing in one fish at a time.  What do think of this game plan?  What fish would you recommend?
<Too many to make general statements... though, being a cheapskate (family Rajidae?), likely some species of hardy damsels... Dascyllus...>
Why this hobby is so important to me, I'm a 74 year old retiree who not only enjoys fishkeeping, but needs it for mental health.
<... I as well>
Thanks again,
Bob
<Glad to share. Bob Fenner>

Clueless- Please help... Anomalous/Env. SW loss/es  7/14/06
Hi Everyone,
<Mercedes>
I've been reading the posts and articles on this site for a while and have learned a lot. Bob's book has become my bible.
<Mmm...>
Thanks so much for all the helpful information you guys provide.
<And don't forget the ladies here>
Especially for us newbies. I've tried figuring this one out on my own or finding some answers on your site but maybe I'm just too new at the hobby to get it. Here's my problem:
Black Ocellaris had tiny fuzzy white spot by his mouth. Goby had the white fuzzy stuff in small patches over his body. Fish didn't look salted or covered in film so didn't seem like Ich or velvet.
<Likely not...>
LFS said my temp was too high (82F- 86F) and it might be fungus.
<Mmm... well... true funguses are actually rare as "hen's teeth" in marine settings... Bacterial ones that are misidentified as such are almost always "secondary"...>
Suggested I used Melafix.
<... I would not>
Did a 10% water change and turned off skimmer per directions on Melafix label. Next day I came home and my other ocellaris, who showed NO signs of sickness, was dead.
<...>
My black ocellaris was swimming a little lopsided and kind of frantic, so I did another 10% water change, stopped adding the Melafix and started running the Skimmer again. The black ocellaris seems to be better since last night and all the other inhabitants seem fine too. I'm really upset b/c they were a good pair and I have no idea what happened or how to prevent it from happening again.
<Mmm... "something/s" environmental... I'd spiff up your maintenance, testing programs...>
The fungus is gone and I have been running a fan on the tank to try to bring the temperature down. Can anyone help me figure out what happened?
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrates 2
Salinity 1.021
<I'd raise/keep this near 1.025>
Temp is 82F
I apologize if the answer to my problem is already on your site but I really did try looking for it. I really appreciate any help you can provide.
_________________
Cycled by 5/16/06
42 Gall Hex
FOWLR
Emperor 280 filter
Aqua C Remora Skimmer w Maxijet 1200
Coral Life Aqualight Pro
30lbs LR
Florida Crushed Coral
3 snails
5 hermit crabs
1 Mithrax/emerald crab
1 cleaner shrimp
1 Pajama Cardinal
1 Black Ocellaris clown
1 Lawnmower Blenny
1 Neon Goby
Mercedes
<Nothing "jumps out" here Mercedes... as I say, clean that skimmer once a month, keep vacuuming the bottom with water changes... Avoid dumping "botanical medicines" in... and all should be fine. Bob Fenner>  

Losing Fish, tank troubleshooting, SW    7/1/06
Hey guys,
<Walid>
I got a 140 gallon salt water tank with fish only and live rock.  
It is over two years established and hardly had any casualties in that time.
And now, I have fish dying off fast, like every two weeks I lose one.  The water conditions are the same as they always been and I did not change
anything.  I did add 15 more pounds of cured live rock about three months ago.  Fish started dying off about 1 and a half ago.  Any ideas?  Is there
some thing else I should test for?
<Not much to go on here.  How is your maintenance...Do you change water on a regular basis.  How are tank parameters, nitrates, pH, etc.  Healthy diets,
vitamin supplements, etc.?  Overstocking, another potential for this.  Quite possible some of fish came to the end of their life.>
Thanks
<You're welcome.  James (Salty Dog)>
Walid

What can cause all fish to mysteriously die quickly?    5/4/06
I am looking for suggestions and ideas on what might have wiped out all of the fish in my wife's 65 gal tank within about 36 hours.
<... likely environmental, though there are some fast-acting pathogens...>
A few days ago my wife's largest Percula Clown started acting funny, hanging around the bottom of the tank and appearing to gasp slowly and
fighting to get back to the top of the water column.
<A clue... as it was large/r...>
But he was still eating. The next day I felt he was acting more lethargic. The next morning he was dead. So was her six line wrasse.
Another chemical check showed PH had dropped to 7.8 overnight
<Not atypical... lack of photosynthetic light reaction... CO2 in house going into solution...>
for some reason and the temp was 76.8 degrees. Salinity was 1.024, ammonia was zero, nitrites were zero, nitrates were 30 (normal for her tank),
phosphates were less than .05, alkalinity was 3.5 meq/l, phosphates were less than .05. All seemed normal except for the PH.
She immediately did a 33% water change with our RO/DI water, threw away all filter media, buffered the tank PH back to 8.12 and adjusted the temp
back to 78 degrees. She then slowly raised the PH back up to 8.2 through the day.
<Best to do such changes slowly... via regular gradual water changes>
That afternoon her baby clown goby died and her yellow tang was just laying around. When I got home I did a fresh water dip on the tang, but it
died a couple of hours later. The next morning, her other Percula Clown died.
The tank is about 3 years old and all the fish were a year or more old except the goby that was about two months old. a 10% water change is done
weekly.   I thought about parasites, but there has not been any additions for a couple of months except the goby, which was quarantined for 4 weeks
before being added to her tank.
<Yes, not likely a biological agent at play here>
There were no signs of spots, lesions, or any other physical signs. All of the fish had good, vibrant colors. The eyes all appeared clear, with no cloudiness or anything like that. I know
this is common with parasites, though. I also have not changed foods recently. I also checked the freshwater bath after the fresh water dip and
did not see anything cloudy or dusty to suggest Velvet Disease, although that is about all I can think of that might have happened.
All her invertebrates appear fine (snails, crabs, coral banded shrimp), and all of her corals appear fine (torch coral, many different kinds of
polyps, Pocillopora, different kinds of mushrooms, bubble tip anemone, toadstool leather, and orange zoos).  Another reason to suspect Velvet?
<Not likely. Symptoms not shown...>
I am at a loss here. Any ides or suggestions you have would be welcome.
<Two big categories of possibilities... lack of gas exchange (from an aerosol or endogenous "oil" source) via a coating on the tank water surface, and some sort of "old tank syndrome"... a blanket category involving the "winning out" of groups of organisms (mainly micro-) in an "older" system... And the principal reason for encouraging people to change out part of their LR, substrate every six months or so after a year or more... See WWM re... the term series "old tank syndrome", and "changing out old rock" on the Google search tool, read the cached...>
Now that all of her fish are gone, I plan to leave the tank fish-less for 6 to 8 weeks and to keep up water changes and such for the inverts and
corals.  But no fish that may act as a host. Do you think this would be long enough to wait before safely adding fish back?
<Mmm, yes, along with switching out, adding to the hard decor here... see WWM re>
Thanks for your help and great assistance to the hobby.
Sincerely,
Rick
<Bob Fenner>

SW tank troubleshooting   4/3/06
Hello from Madison, WI, <Hello Sharon - Tim answering your question today - from London, UK>
Five years ago on noontime errands, I walked into a local aquarium store
and walked out with my first setup.  Hasty, but sometimes you just know
what you want.  That first 20 gallon now sits in my office, replaced by
a 135 gallon at home.  Who says life doesn't start anew at 50?! <I can't wait...>  I'm in
need of an answer, though there may not be one, but any thoughts are
greatly appreciated.  Last week before leaving the office, I noticed the
blood red fire shrimp come out from behind rocks to front side, and
thought how unusual.   A little later, I saw it lying on the substrate
but thought it had molted.  Next morning, the little pygmy angel and
social wrasse were dead and somewhat decomposed.  I guessed they died
soon after the shrimp.  I tested the water--little or no nitrates.  Salt
level good.  Temperature good.  Filtration is live rock.  Weekly 25%
water changes and substrate cleaning.  I waited a week, did a 50% water
change, and have added a bicolor blenny and six-line wrasse, who are
doing well.   Thank you for any insights you can offer. <Shrimps and fish are very different animals, clearly, and so they seldom suffer from the same disease - this is why, typically, when you have a disease outbreak in your aquarium and are advised to leave it fallow, it is acceptable to keep snails and shrimp in the aquarium whereas you will have to remove all types of fish. This is also why I do not think that your shrimp and fish died of an illness - unless of course their deaths were unrelated. Consider whether there may have been some toxins or other chemical that leached into the water? The source could be internal or external - i.e. it could have been released by an animal in your aquarium or for example the result of corrosion or an accidental spillage. In any case I would suggest removing your new fish to a QT in case the earlier deaths were the result of disease or poisoning. Try to identify any possible sources of toxins (such as exposed screw heads or other metals, animals that have died or those that release toxins when threatened) or otherwise leave the tank fallow to rid it of any disease. I am sorry I cannot be more helpful but wish you the very best of luck.>  
Sharon Persich

Concerned South African Aquarist... tank troubleshooting   3/25/06
Hi guys. I hope you can help me with a problem I have been having for a very long time. I own a 300 liter marine aquarium. With about 5kg live rock, 6000l/hr turnover rate, a Weipro skimmer, and ammo free for toxin removal, (i.e. ammonia, nitrite and nitrate). My Nitrate, Nitrite, Ammonia and phosphate levels are currently 0. My S.G is at 1023 and is very closely controlled along with my temperature and pH which runs at 26C and 8.6 respectively. I am only feeding sterilized live foods.
<Okay so far>
It's been running now for 3 months and the longest any fish has lived for was only one month, and it happens to be a clown. Two sort of disease processes are occurring. One where fish settle in very nicely for about 3 weeks, eating and swimming vigorously, only to be followed by a period of massive weight loss, despite eating and then overnight death. This occurred with a clown, cleaner wrasse, two goldies and a lipstick tang. The other process occurring with at least 3 fish  (two tangs and one pigmy angel) is where a form of growth appears behind the gill it is best described as whitish, reddish type of lesion about .7 cm in diameter. Fish show signs of gill irritation, were they keep scratching on rocks. Until the last day they are otherwise fine and happy. This occurs about a week after the fish are introduced and feeding well. I cannot figure weather it is bacterial or fungal in origin but it is deadly. At the moment a bi-color angle is developing a similar lesion only 1 week of introduction. I have initiated treatment with Sealife's Myxazin (antibacterial).
<Might be an extremely virulent bacterial problem... frightening... There are some in-print works that show symptoms of Mycobacterium marinum for instance... The Myxazin will not treat for all species>
What bothers me is that my fish have no reason for stress yet most have failed to thrive. What should I do? I was thinking of getting a UV sterilizer or better mechanical filtration, I have many sponge canister type filters that I could place back in the tank. I am only feeding sterilized live foods.
<Likely Gamma... good products>
Thank you
Hope to here from you soon.
<If it were me/mine, the best thing I would do is to remove the one clown and let this system run fish-less for a good month, six weeks, raise temperature (to 29 C.), lower spg (1.016 or so)... to weaken this pathogen... then try some small test fish/es (damsels likely). If there is an actual infectious or parasitic agent at work here, this will likely "do it"... In the meanwhile, I would also add a pad of PolyFilter if you can find it, and run this in your filter/flow pathway to ascertain (by color change) whether there is perhaps some metal contamination that has found its way into your system. Bob Fenner>

Lumps on fish    3/19/06
Hello,
Thanks for your help with my cleaner shrimp.  Everything seems to be going fine.  I have another question about one of my fish.  It is a damsel fish and I noticed lumps growing under its scales.  Eventually the lumps disappear and then more show up.  What is this and what should I do about the fish?
Thanks,
Margaret
<Mmm, might be a worm parasite of some sort... or another, but most likely resultant from some type of environmental insult. Bob Fenner>

Hopefully you can provide some clarification ... anomalous mar. losses  3/15/06
Hello Crew -
   <Arthur>
  Approximately 2 months ago, I noticed that one of my favorite fish, a panther grouper,  had started to act abnormally.  Following an ill fated transfer to a larger tank, the grouper started to hide the majority of the time and began to eat much less frequently.  This was different from the fishes previous "hunger-strikes", where it would go a week at most before eating ravenously and then returning to a daily feed routine.  (The ill fated transfer was simply that he tried to eat all of his tank mates which were supposed to be too large to present an issue, but for his safety and theirs, I placed the grouper back in his prior tank while transferring other fish around)
   <I see>
  The Panther grouper began to hide from everyone and would never come out from behind the live rock and appeared to have taken on a curved appearance.  (FYI, the fish had been fed a variety of foods and should have been getting all of its dietary needs met.)  The fishes color and appearance was still fine but the behavior shift as well as the bent appearance worried me.
     When the fish would come out from hiding, it would no longer have the bent appearance and I was able to get him to eat on 2 occasions but then the grouper stopped eating all together.  Approximately 2 weeks prior to me leaving for a long business trip, the Grouper stopped eating all together.  I was unhappy leaving a sick fish in the care of another person, but I am fortunate to have a friend who also keeps tanks and has done so for a long time.  It made me even more uncomfortable because the grouper was now constantly staying bent over and would not come out from hiding.  About 1 week into my trip, the grouper was transferred into a larger QT to see if there was something in his main tank that was causing his problems.  
<Good move>   
  Unfortunately, nothing seemed to work.  The grouper was now on 3+ weeks without food and staying bent, plus his fins were looking ragged and his coloration had turned gray.  My friend was so sure that the fish was going to die that he called me several times to warn me and ask what to do.  I had him try several live foods, none of which worked.  A consultation with a local fish store owner Ron, seemed to point to fish tuberculosis.  (I wont say which San Diego store, but from my understanding Bob Fenner has a good relationship with this owner so he probably knows who I am referring to.)
   <Yes... RonE is a fine young man, entrepreneur>
  All of the research I have done supported the same conclusion and I told my friend to keep the fish alive if possible, but if it died, I understood.  When I arrived back, the Grouper had not eaten in over 7 weeks.  It was looking more and more bent and showed no interest in any food.  When it hit the two months mark without eating,  I figured it could not hang on much longer.  Unfortunately it appeared that no matter how long it went without eating, it was still hanging on.  Given that the fish had to be suffering, I finally was forced to euthanize it when it had gone nearly 10 weeks without eating.  (Euthanized by freezing it for 1.5 hours).   
  What I need to determine is the following:  
  1) What is the chance that his tank mate is also infected with the TB?  (The fish looks completely healthy and is eating normally)   
<Mmm, could be Mycobacterial involvement here, but I much more strongly suspect some other internal problem at root>
   2)  Is there any danger posed from the LR in the groupers old tank?  
<Highly unlikely>
  3)  Should I treat the QT in any particular manner given the TB?  What about the sponge and power filters?
<If you are concerned, it would be prudent to "lightly bleach wash" all... A protocol for this: http://wetwebmedia.com/clnornart.htm>
  4)  I had never heard about TB in fish and have never had an issue like this in 20+ years of keeping salt water tanks....is this something that is rarely seen or have I just been lucky thus far?
   <Mmm, a very valuable lesson here re appearances, realities and the "real" nature of disease/health: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisease.htm>
  Thanks.   
  Art
<Bob Fenner>

New tank ... troubleshooting disease  3/3/06
Hey WWM team, <Hello David - Tim answering your question today!>
Quick question, I can't seem to find the answer anywhere on your site. <Sorry!>
I have a relatively new 55 gallon SW tank. All new, top notch equipment: Sealife wet/dry and Protein Skimmer, etc, 45 lbs. of cured live rock, and
about 1 inch live sand. The tank has been up for about 8 weeks. It was completely cycled and housed Damsels for a while. Recently I added a Coral
Beauty Angel, Maroon Clown, and Flame Hawk. Everyone swims vigorously and eats like no tomorrow. <A good sign - ill fish tend to be lethargic.>
However, lately I have been noticing split/frayed fins in everyone (were not there when fish were added). I have observed no fighting, so I don't think
it is aggression. <And I would not expect aggression to result in all the fish having frayed fins.> I just did a 10% water change and will do another in a few
days. <Always a good idea.>
pH is right around 8.4, approx. 80 degrees, salinity is 1.022. No traces of ammonia, nitrite or nitrate (just usual brown algae).
Any help you could give me would be appreciated. The fish don't seem in
pain, but split/damaged fins can't be fun. <I should imagine not, no. It is difficult to be certain, but my guess would be that you have fin rot in your system. Do research this disease on the wetwebmedia.com website to validate my hunch. Otherwise please do not hesitate to contact us again with any other observations that you make to help identify the problem. I wish you the best of luck! Do be sure to place all fish in quarantine prior to introduction into your main display tank. This will help ensure the continued good health of your fish.>
P.S.-Your site has been a lifesaver starting this exciting hobby! Thanks so much!
David Graham

Sudden loss of fish?/Lack of knowledge    3/2/06
Hi Bob,  <James today>
First off, I would like to express my appreciation for the valuable time you set aside to help all of us. Your site has been a plethora of knowledge and wisdom that could never be achieved by anything other than time and experience. THANKS A BUNCH TO YOU AND YOUR FRIENDS!!!!! <You’re welcome.>  Now, I have a BIG problem. I've had a 135g saltwater aquarium that has been established for about 8 months. In the last two weeks I have lost several fish. My tank consisted (past tense) of about 125lbs of live rock, substrate is all live sand. Water parameters have been excellent with nitrate and nitrite at 0, ph at about 8.0, and ammonia at 0. Did I miss anything else?  <Water parameters aren’t the only thing that ensures success.> Mostly a fish only tank with the exception of two anemones,  A bubble tip, sebae (leather), and some cleaner shrimp. Fish consisted of all smaller size fish (3" or so) such as hippo tang, sailfin, (which both got along great), flame angel, 2 ocellaris clowns, fuzzy dwarf lion, mandarin goby, very small Volitans lion, and blue spotted angel. The aquarium I purchased unknowingly until afterwards that is not ideally set up for any type of wet/dry filter system. What I have on there is a dual CPR Bak pak and emperor 280 because the 400 would not fit either of the two openings at the rear of the tank. I don't know if that is a sufficient set up for the size tank and capacity of fish etc. Does the live rock and sand help with filtration  <Biologically, yes.> to where the system I have in place is enough to do the job? <You would be better off with a wet/dry sump.>  Well here's where disaster strikes. Sadly, due to a lack of experience, I'm hoping you can help me to identify the mistake I've made and learn from this. I've already learned a costly lesson concerning a quarantine tank, which I now have in place. Myself, and a friend of mine both recently purchased  a pennant banner fish from a LFS. His a few days later contracted ich in his 50g. A week later he lost his halfblack angel, yellow tang, as well as the banner, and nearly his two clowns. <Too many fish in that tank.> The reason I bring this up is because I don't know if this is pertinent or not. My banner dies 2 days later and all heck has broken loose since then. A few days later my blue spotted is dead, no sign of any problems, he had been eating well. Then my dwarf lion quits eating  and is very pale with loss of color. I then notice white spots on my hippo tang and sailfin along with fin rot. I immediately quarantine them and my lion after doing freshwater dip with Maracyn by Mardel, did not have methylene blue at the time. Treated quarantine tank with copper power given to me by DIFFERENT LFS. Mandarin then is found dead next day in my main tank, <Mandarins need plenty of live rock teeming with copepods to survive.  Very few adapt to prepared foods.> as well as both my  lions that were in quarantine. This is CHAOS, I'm losing fish both in my main tank and the quarantine and I had no idea what and how this came to be. Some fish showed obvious signs such as the tangs and others showed no signs of problems whatsoever. I've been on your site for hours searching for answers and quickly came to the conclusion that I need personal attention. I realize that copper treatment is not good for tangs because of their digestive system, <Copper should never be used without a copper test kit to ensure levels do not exceed .2ppm.> but is it due to long-term exposure or not, also should I have treated the lion differently? My hippo tang died shortly after quarantine, but my sailfin has shown dramatic improvement. He’s eating well and has lost the obvious sign of white spots all over his body. Oh by the way the quarantine tank is set at about 86 degrees and salinity at about 1.014. I have my 2 clowns left and my flame angel which are still in my main tank. Noticed today my clown has what appears to be Brooklynellosis. White patches nears his dorsal fin and he’s breathing rapidly. I cannot quarantine my clowns or my angel because my quarantine tank with my sail fin has copper in it, which I read, is bad news for dwarf angels and clowns. PLEASE HELP! I don't believe I should treat the tank under any circumstance so can I quarantine and treat in buckets? Formalin for clowns and what about my flame angel? He has shown no signs of problems YET. Hardy little guy. Unfortunately I have to count this as a lesson learned, but it's one lesson I hope to not have again especially at the expense of fish that depend on us to keep them healthy!!!!!!  <And “us” needs to learn more about the fish he is buying along with their requirements/needs.  Most of the fish you choose require healthy seasoned tanks and some are not for the newbie to begin with.> Sorry about the length of my story, but hopefully others can learn from this  and avoid making  the mistakes I apparently have. I guess that's why we are all here. So Bob, what's your assessment on how this might have happened? Could buying that Bannerfish be the cause since the same thing happened to my friend with the same fish same LFS? Did I overstock my tank to quickly or with too many fish for a 135G. Inadequate filtering system? <Yes, problem number one.  Even with an adequate filtering system fish should be added slowly so as to allow time for the biological filter to adjust to the new load.>  I have no clue? And why did nearly all my fish die of obvious signs and some died such as the mandarin with no signs at all. He was in my tank for about 5 months. Thanks a million for your time and attention. LOVE YOUR BOOK, LOVE YOUR SITE!  <Your biggest problem here is lack of knowledge.  I suggest you read Bob’s book  again.  I’m guessing the book was bought after the problems began.  All answers to your questions can be found on our site.  Do search marine diseases and read/learn what medications treat what.  I strongly suggest not buying any more fish until you get a good handle on what you are doing and doing correctly.  Your present problems stem from previous ones, like a domino effect.  One or two things are not going to cure all.  It’s time to slow down and do more reading/learning and less buying.  And when the time comes, do buy hardy fish, those which you will have a good chance of keeping alive for some length of time.  There are many colorful fish to choose from that fall into this category.  In the future, please do a spelling/grammar check.  Took me longer to correct the query than it did to answer.  James (Salty Dog)>                
Sincerely

QX3 Scope  2/8/06
Bob,
At Next wave in Dallas you talked about a small microscope , I wrote it down and lost it . Could you till me the name of the scope...Thanks George Orndorff
<Ah, yes... mine is right next to me here: the QX3: http://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&ie=UTF-
8&cof=BGC:%23FFFFFF%3BT:
%23000000%3BLC:%230000CC%3BVLC:%230000CC%3BALC:%230000CC%
3BGALT:%23008000%3BGFNT:%23000000
%3BGIMP:%23000000%3BDIV:%230000CC%3BLBGC:%23FFFFFF%
3B&sitesearch=wetwebmedia.com&q=QX3+microscope
&spell=1
Bob Fenner>

QX... 5!   2/9/06
Bob,
  Thanks for the info on the QX3 , I have ordered the new QX5 and are looking forward to using it. Thanks for you talk at Dallas enjoyed
it...George Orndorff
<Please make it known how you "rate" this scope... I am very happy with my "3". Bob Fenner>

Question: Inexplicable Marine Losses   2/1/06
  Hello WWM crew,
   <Bernard>
  I have used your website for a few years now and find it to be an incredible resource for those in our hobby.  I thank you for that.  I've got my first question (or set of questions) for you, since I find similar FAQ's, but not exactly.  I apologize for the lengthy email, but I thought the more details, the better.  I really want to know what's going on with my tank...   
  My tank:  100 gal w/ 30 gal sump, ~100 lbs of live rock.
  I've been in the hobby on and off since the late 80's or so, and for the past 3 consecutive years.     
  Going back ~5 months, my tank had been established for about 2 years w/ great coralline growth on the rocks, healthy fish (yellow tang, 2 maroon clowns, blackcap Basslet, flavivertex Pseudochromis, six-line wrasse, others), healthy inverts (numerous hermit crabs, snails, 3 rose BTA's, 2 cleaner shrimp, and 1 blood shrimp), and corals (numerous zoo's, mushrooms, 1 gorgonian and 1 frogspawn).  The tank was amazing and it ran itself, except for a 20 gallon water change every other week (10 gals every week if I'm not being lazy).  No predators in the tank whatsoever - I had no deaths in ~1 year.   
  Then, the coralline started bleaching and the frogspawn started to retract and disintegrate.
<... not uncommon... "something" became rate-limiting>
This happened to be during a prolonged heat wave and I didn't know at that time how sensitive the frogspawn was to heat.  Shortly after I saw the frogspawn fading, I left the country for 3 weeks with my fingers crossed, and with my tank in the hands of a mildly experienced marine aquarist to do feedings and water top offs.  Things did not get better with the frogspawn and as it died, it took everything in the tank with it, one by one.
<Maybe... or perhaps coincidental>
  Unfortunately, I was on safari in Africa, and my friend thought that I wouldn't have email access, so he didn't bother emailing.  By the time I came back to town, to put it mildly, my tank was a disaster area and my friend was very traumatized because so much had died on him.  I did my best w/ massive water changes, but it was too late.  I managed to save one hermit crab.   
  So, before introducing anything new, I wanted to ensure that my water quality was good and that the beneficial bacteria had a chance to rebound.  I let the tank sit for ~2 months, empty, w/ everything still running.  When I checked the water about 2 months ago, everything was good, so I started introducing fish.  Over the first month, I introduced 1st: a tiny 1.5" royal Gramma, 2 tiny 0.5" tomato clowns, 3" lawnmower blenny, and cleanup crew (hermits, snails).  One of the tomatoes perished almost immediately, and then a week or two later, I introduced: one 1.5" tomato clown, and one 1.5" hippo tang.  Then, about 1 week later, I introduced a 3" scopas tang, one 1.5" sixline wrasse, and one 2" Banggai cardinal.  Over the next couple of days, the sixline and the cardinal disappeared.    
  Then I started to see signs of ich on the hippo and the scopas.  So, I picked up 2 skunk cleaner shrimp, acclimated over 1 hour, and both were gone by the next day.  The ich was mild on the hippo and scopas and came and went, so I thought (incorrectly) that it was done.  I then saw some great-looking Anthias and ended up picking up 3 Bartlett's and 2 more cleaner shrimp.  I acclimated all longer this time - about 1.5 hours - and all dead by the morning.  Once again - I checked all the parameters on the tank and it all looked fine - zero nitrite, very low nitrate and zero to very low ammonia (even after the deaths), 8.5 pH.  I'm very bummed at this point and the ich has re-surfaced.  The ich got worse over the following week or so, and the hippo passed away.  I ended up getting 2 more cleaner shrimp trying to control the ich and to save the scopas.  I acclimated the shrimp over 2 hours this time and for the first couple of days, they seemed fine, only to disappear after 2-3 days.   
  Since then, the scopas has died, as has the royal Gramma - both to ich.  I moved the scopas to a q-tank treated w/ copper, but too late, apparently.  All that is left is my cleanup crew and the 2 tomatoes.   
  I think tank aggression might be the most likely cause of my losses?
<Mmm, not likely the principal cause here>
The scopas the largest fish by far but was very mild - NEVER showed any signs of aggression whatsoever.  I saw the hippo chase the Gramma, the smaller clown, and the lawnmower blenny.  I saw the larger tomato chase the smaller clown on a few occasions, and it seems that the larger tomato might have been the "mean one" the whole time?   
  So what gives?  I can't find anything on your site that points to my smoking gun.  I am 99.9% sure there's no mantis or other predators that would have come on my live rock - as I mentioned before, my tank was stable for a very long time (prior to my crash) w/ some very small fish and I experienced no losses whatsoever.  I haven't added any new rock at all.  And, if the tomato was the bad apple, would he have killed all of my cleaner shrimp too?  Perhaps I didn't have enough iodine in the water for the shrimp?  I haven't been dosing.
  <Mmm, not likely>
  For now, I have removed the clowns to my Q-tank and there are no fish in my main display - only the cleanup crew.  I will let that tank lie fallow for 4-6 weeks to kill off the ich.
<Good>
  In the meantime, I want to figure out what went wrong before I introduce a single thing.  I may trade in the two clowns as I think the bigger one was a "bad guy", and I will quarantine all new arrivals from this point forward.
   <Amen brother>
  Sorry for the extremely long email.  I appreciate any help you can provide.  I am terribly disappointed with what has happened to my tank - basically 2 complete disasters in less than six months - easily the worst things that have happened to me in all my time in this hobby.   
  Thanks for your time,
  Bernard
<The first disaster event was likely triggered by what many call "old tank syndrome"... a loss of ready soluble chemical make-up, and/or biological diversity... most easily avoided through renewal/replacement of carbonaceous materials (substrates, decor, rock) on a periodic basis once a system is about a year and a half old. The second, continuing on, was resultant from a lack of quarantine, introduction into this aged make-up. Bob Fenner>

Re: Question: Inexplicable Marine Losses   2/2/06
Bob,
   <Bern>
  Thanks for getting back to me.  A couple of follow up questions:
     1.  So, based on your email, I should get some new live rock into the system and quarantine all new arrivals.  I will certainly do both.
   <Not the LR in all cases, but many... Yes to the quarantine>
  2.  Anything else that you see?
   <Not from here>
  3.  Does the "old tank" explain the overnight losses of my shrimp and fish in your opinion?
   <Oh yes... often a "lack of proportionality" in some aspects of water quality will do this. Bob Fenner>
  Thanks so much,
  Bernard

SW system, fish loss tale...  - 1/30/2006
Hi Bob,
           First off, I would like to express my appreciation for the valuable time you set aside to help all of us. Your site has been a plethora of knowledge and wisdom that could never be achieved by anything other than time and experience. THANKS A BUNCH TO YOU AND YOUR FRIENDS!!!!!
<Thank you for your acknowledgement, kind words>
Now, I have a BIG problem. I've had a 135g saltwater aquarium that has been established for about 8 months. In the last two weeks I have lost several fish. My tank consisted (past tense) of about 125lbs of live rock, substrate is all live sand. Water parameters have been excellent with nitrate and nitrite at 0, ph at about 8.0, and ammonia at 0. Did I miss anything else?
<Not thus far...>
Mostly a fish only tank with the exception of two anemones.
<... trouble here>
A bubble tip, sebae (leather), and some cleaner shrimp. Fish consisted of all smaller size fish (3" or so) such as hippo tang, sailfin, (which both got along great), flame angel, 2 ocellaris clowns, fuzzy dwarf lion, mandarin goby, very small Volitans lion, and blue spotted angel. The aquarium I purchased unknowingly until afterwards that is not ideally set up for any type of wet/dry filter system. What I have on there is a dual CPR Bak pak and emperor 280 because the 400 would not fit either of the two openings at the rear of the tank. I don't know if that is a sufficient set up for the size tank and capacity of fish etc.
<More filtration, circulation... better>
Does the live rock and sand help with filtration to where the system I have in place is enough to do the job?
<Maybe not>
Well here's where disaster strikes. Sadly, due to a lack of experience, I'm hoping you can help me to identify the mistake I've made and learn from this. I've already learned a costly lesson concerning a quarantine tank which I now have in place.
<Good>
Myself, and a friend of mine both recently purchased  a pennant Bannerfish from a LFS. His a few days later contracted ich in his 50g. A week later he lost his halfback angel, yellow tang, as well as the banner, and nearly his two clowns. The reason I bring this up is because I don't know if this is pertinent or not. My banner dies 2 days later and all heck has broken loose since then. A few days later my blue spotted is dead, no sign of any problems, he had been eating well. Then my dwarf lion quits eating  and is very pale with loss of color. I then notice white spots on my hippo tang and sailfin along with fin rot. I immediately quarantine them and my lion after doing freshwater dip with Maracyn by Mardel, did not have methylene blue at the time. Treated quarantine tank with copper power given to me by DIFFERENT LFS. Mandarin then is found dead next day in my main tank, as well as both my  lions that were in quarantine. This is CHAOS, I'm losing fish both in my main tank and the quarantine and I had no idea what and how this came to be. Some fish showed obvious signs such as the tangs and others showed no signs of problems whatsoever. I've been on your site for hours searching for answers and quickly came to the conclusion that I need personal attention. I realize that copper treatment is not good for tangs because of their digestive system, but is it due to long term exposure or not, Also should I have treated the lion differently?
<Mmm, no... just careful, daily measure, re-application at low dosage/concentration levels... though still therapeutic... 0.15-0.20 ppm CU++>
My hippo tang died shortly after quarantine, but my sailfin has shown dramatic improvement. He's eating well and has lost the obvious sign of white spots all over his body. Oh by the way the quarantine tank is set at about 86 degrees and salinity at about 1.014. I have my 2 clowns left and my flame angel which are still in my main tank. Noticed today my clown has what appears to be Brooklynellosis. White patches nears his dorsal fin and he's breathing rapidly. I cannot quarantine my clowns or my angel because my quarantine tank with my sailfin has copper in it which I read is bad news for dwarf angels and clowns. PLEASE HELP!
<... I think you know all need to be treated...>
I don't believe I should treat the tank under any circumstance so can I quarantine and treat in buckets?
<Can... just need to be heated, water quality checked... changed out>
Formalin for clowns and what about my flame angel?
<?>
He has shown no signs of problems YET. Hardy little guy. Unfortunately I have to count this as a lesson learned, but it's one lesson I hope to not have again especially at the expense of fish that depend on us to keep them healthy!!!!!! Sorry about the length of my story, but hopefully others can learn from this  and avoid making  the mistakes I apparently have. I guess that's why we are all here. So Bob, what's your assessment on how this might have happened? Could buying that Bannerfish be the cause since the same thing happened to my friend with the same fish same LFS?
<Yes... could have triggered, introduced pathogens... definitely added stress here. But... your system could use more filtration, water movement... stocking two anemone species in small volumes is asking for trouble... not using quarantine... a form of Russian roulette>
Did I overstock my tank to quickly or with too many fish for a 135G. Inadequate filtering system?
<Yes, yes>
I have no clue?
<No... you have obvious clues>
And why did nearly all my fish die of obvious signs and some died such as the mandarin with no signs at all.
<More sensitive...>
He was in my tank for about 5 months. Thanks a million for your time and attention. LOVE YOUR BOOK, LOVE YOUR SITE!
<Take your time here my friend... allow all to come to some sort of re-center... use your new quarantine system, knowledge, intelligence. You'll do fine. Bob Fenner>

Dying Fish - Where to Begin 01/27/06
I have had a forty gallon saltwater tank now for about seven or so months. I started the tank with about fifteen pounds of live rock and about two inches deep of live sand and once it was cycled I added two false perculas, a firefish, and a cleaner shrimp. About a month and a half later I added a bicolor angel and a Condy.  Then one month later I added a Heniochus <<Should not be kept in anything less than 75g and that might be pushing it>>.  My sand started to get quite a bit of algae in it and even though that is good I wanted to have the surface be more algae free so I got a sand-sifting goby. Two days after I put him in he stirred all of the sand up in the tank and made holes and made some of the live rock fall. This made my nitrate levels rise to about 80ppm so I got rid of him immediately and did a water change.<<High nitrates are bad for invertebrates.>> The ammonia and nitrites were fine. However, the bicolor angel and the Heniochus both died two days later (the bicolor showed signs of stress
but the Heniochus did not). I was bummed, but one month later I got another Heniochus and a mandarin (there are plenty of copepods in the tank by now)<<Not necessarily. Do you have a refugium? In any case, the fish dying in two days is not the result of starvation>>. They both died about two days later. The two clowns, the firefish, the cleaner shrimp, and the Anenome all are fine. The water qualities are all perfect (ammonia 0ppm, nitrite 0ppm, and nitrate <40ppm at all times)<<Too high if you intend to keep invertebrates. 20ppm is more appropriate.>> However, every time I introduce a fish, with the exception of another firefish (who has chewed the dorsal fin off of the other firefish), into my
tank they die about two days later (acting totally normal the first day, then sluggish the next, and dead by the night). I have introduced two coral beauties, the two Heniochus, the mandarin, and a very small six line wrasse. Is there any way I can tell what is wrong with my tank.<<First, please stop adding fish to your tank until you have determined what is killing them. For fish to die that rapidly, something in the environment is out of whack. Newly purchased fish are stressed. Adding them to a system with something a miss can easily kill them this rapidly. What do you use for water in your water changes? That would be my first suspicion. Also, you don't say how often you change water and what you are using for filtration. Fifteen pounds of LR and a shallow sandbed may not be up to the rapid increases in ammonia, nitrites and nitrates that could occur when adding several fish at a time. Please search and read here on WWM. Start with http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quaranti.htm,
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/nitratesmar.htm, http://www.wetwebmedia.com/henifaqs.htm and  
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mandfdgfaqs.htm.>>
Thank you for your help,
Ryan
<<You're welcome. Good luck - Ted>>

Sudden unexplained loss of fish   1/11/06
Hi Guys!  I read your website constantly and find I am in need of your assistance if possible. <Very possible>  I recently experienced a rapid massive fish loss and would appreciate any insight you may have as to how this could happen. <Sorry to hear, Kimberly> It is devastating to loose fish unexplainably and I am desperate for an answer to prevent this in the future.  My tank is a 180 G acrylic Tenecor tank with built in wet/dry filtration.  UV sterilizer and PC lighting.  This tank has been stable and running for approx 2 years with no additions for the last month.  The last addition was 3 cleaner shrimp added 4 weeks ago who appeared to be healthy up until the day of the problem.  Parameters were tested that day as follows:  Temp = 77.3, Salinity = 1.0203, ALK = Low, Nitrite = 0, Nitrate = 0, PH = 8.3.  The LFS tested the water the following day and confirmed the results although they said PH was somewhat lower and agreed that it was probably due to sample taken 24 hours before actual testing.  Even at the level of 7.9
it would not account for the sudden death of so many fish.  
The first indication of a problem was that everything seemed to be moving to higher ground.  The snails crawled as far as possible, followed by the starfish.    Within 24 hours I lost a Flame Angel, Majestic Angel, Yellow tang, 2 neon gobies, a yellow tail damsel and a Pajama Cardinal.    I also have a Tomini Tang which I was able to save by moving to a Quarantine tank that was already set up.  He breathed rapidly for a night but was okay by morning.  All of the fish that died suffered no color loss and absolutely no marks, growths or any other indication of a problem.  The only life in the aquarium that appeared to suffer no ill effects were a pair of Maroon gold stripe clowns.  After two days I moved them and the 5 Rose BTA's that they live in (which are doing extremely poor) to a second quarantine tank along with a choc chip star, sandsifting star and brittle star.  BTW the BTA's were very healthy prior to this incident.  I bought 2 of them about 4 months ago and they had split
to 5.  Absolutely the only change I have noted in any part of the tank during this problem is the sudden explosion of what seem to be Amphipods.  I did not know what the little creatures were at first but took some pictures and compared with what I found on Internet research and everything I read says they are beneficial.  I am attributing their rapid increase to the fact that I removed a four line wrasse from the tank about a month ago and put him in a quarantine tank because he was hassling the clown/anemones and had a wound on his side that I thought was due to their interaction.   He has since made a full recovery.  But I think he may have been keeping their population under control.   The only recommendation the LFS could give was to reduce the depth of sand in the sand bed.<The fish should keep this under control>  It was recommended to me to keep it at a 3-4 inch depth but they said approx 1 inch or even less was sufficient.  They had no other advice to give.  I am currently in the process of emptying the entire
tank and starting over with less sand and cleaning everything as thoroughly as possible.   
I apologize for the long email but wanted to explain as fully as possible.  I am only two years into the fascinating world of saltwater and terrified that I did something wrong.  I am religious about washing my hands and not spraying any chemicals near the tank but this really seems to indicate poisoning to me.  Any help would be greatly appreciated. <I believe you are absolutely correct in indicating a poisoning problem.  Judging by your email my first guess would be hydrogen sulphide gas emitting from the deep sand bed.  Deep sand beds are OK as long as you have plenty of critters in there stirring it up.  I'd do what the dealer suggested and limit your sand depth to no more than 1 1/2 inches.  I'd find a place to put the remaining fish before you attempt this as doing so is going to release more hydrogen sulphide into the system.  Not 100% sure but if I were a betting man I'd take 10 to 1 odds that this is what's happening.>
Thank you! <You're welcome, Kim.  James (Salty Dog)>
Kimberly

30 Gallon Hex, As In Curse - 01/01/2006
Hi,
<Hi Debbie.>
I have had my 30 gallon hex for about two years. I have had various types of fish, starfish etc, but have never had any luck with it. I only have had 2-3 fish at a time, but they never seem to last very long.
<Uh...wow.>
My starfish even passed recently after having him for a year and a half. The last straw was yesterday, when my two tomato clowns, who have been eating ferociously on a daily basis for 6 months, just died together, after I changed the filter, and clean the glass.
<Clean the glass? This doesn't happen to involve some type of household product does it (Windex or the like)?>
About an hour later, I was just about to do a water change (which I do every two weeks), and noticed that they were both laying on their sides, and within an hour died. Something dramatic must of happened, and I do not know what.
<Seems "something dramatic" has never stopped happening.>
I did nothing different.
<Then something that has plagued your tank must be through your own introduction.>
I am terribly disappointed, since they appear so healthy, and then within a few hours died. Now all I have left is a hermit crab. I have live rock and a snail that is still alive, that came with the rock two years ago. I am ready to give up and switch to freshwater. I know now that it was a mistake getting this type of tank, not only because of the size, but the shape as well. Not the best for saltwater. For now, I want to keep my hex.
<I read a book called Thinner once...He decided to keep his too.>
Do you think that it is a good idea to switch to freshwater, considering the size of my tank.
<That's up to you. I think that you are doing something to create toxic conditions here without knowing it. Cleaners used on/around the tank. Something releasing chemicals...>
I was also told that seahorses may be an alternative.
<This didn't come from someone who would be "happy to sell them to you" did it?!>
That they do well in a tall tank. How many would I be able to keep in a tank this size, and how hardy are they?
<True they do well in tall tanks, but should only be kept by experienced (as in very) aquarists. Hardy?  I can assure you this is not worth considering.>
I just don't know what to do. I am so frustrated.
<Understandable. Review your procedure...something is wreaking havoc on your tank. For this to be so long standing, I'm near positive it's self-inflicted.>
Debbie
<Other questions: Are you testing/recording water parameters?
Cleaning around the house prior to putting your hands in the tank?
Buying stock from one source? Was this tank bought used? Hope things do improve. - Josh>

Re: 30 Gallon Hex, As In Curse - 01/02/2006
Hi, thanks for your quick response.
<Hello Debbie, glad to help.>
I do not use cleaners around my tank.
<Good to hear. One down...>
But maybe it has something to do with my hands or arms, lotions, etc.
<Very good possibility.>
However, I did not use any that morning, but may there was a trace from the other day, or soap that wasn't rinsed off.
<This is beginning to seem less likely a/the cause.>
Who knows.
<Nope. I started this crew as a who and I'm not really sure here.>
How does one clean their arms thoroughly. Do you rinse them with water, before you dip into tank.
<I refuse to clean anything prior to my tank (planned ahead). Then I wash from mid-bicep to finger tips with the hottest water I can stand and dry with a towel "for aquarium use only" so as to avoid detergents. Arm length gloves only used for the tank would be best. That said, I believe your problem is likely elsewhere. Where do you store your filter cartridges? Water quality testing as I asked earlier? Used tank? Second hand live rock? What is your source water and its parameters or content? Does your tank have a "rotten egg" smell? How is your water being circulated? If you kneel next to your tank and look up through the water, is there a film or sheen across the surface? Do some sleuthing here and it may reveal something.>
You obviously cannot use soap.
<Correct. It's possible there is a toxin of some sort in/on the tank from a long time ago. You may just need to break the system down and bleach the tank out. Start over from scratch. Do consider the questions I've posed, but if these reveal nothing, I'd start over.>
Debbie
<Good luck friend. - Josh>

Re: 30 Gallon Hex, As In Curse - 01/02/2006
Thanks again for your quick response.
<Quite welcome. I only wish it was of more use.>
To answer some of your questions. The tank was brand new, when I got it two years ago. The live rock came from a very reputable aquarium.
<Shop or actual tank?>
There is no rotten egg smell and no film on top of water. I keep my filters under the fish tank (cabinet) in the box I bought it in. My water parameters are all fine. And when I have had them double checked at the store, they were fine as well.
<I'm about out of ideas but have a couple left. Contact you local health department, they should be able to tell you where you can get a full work up of your source water (I'd bring in one source sample, one tank sample). Covers absolutely everything, not just standard hobby params. Should be free of charge also.>
So beats me what the problem is.
<I'm sorry I wasn't able to help here. On a long shot...Gas heat by chance? Polluted air filters?>
I think if I break down the tank, I will switch to freshwater, until I have room for a much larger tank. Thanks for the tip about how you wash your hands. That will be helpful, even if I switch to freshwater.
Debbie
<Best of luck to you Debbie. - Josh>

Re: 30 Gallon Hex, As In Curse - 01/02/2006
Thanks for all your input.
<Glad to offer it.>
I may decide to have my water checked again. We do have well water, and I thought that might have been the problem in the past. Last year, there was a funny smell coming out of our faucets when we used the water.  It smelled like gas or sewage. The health dept. came and took water samples, but they showed nothing unusual. It went on for quite a few months.  We no longer have the smell.  And we never found out what it was.  We drink our water, but also drink a lot of bottled water that is distilled.
<Hmm...Well water is definitely a possibility here. They may not have found anything "unusual" but that doesn't help you. The list of acceptable chemical concentrations from regular tap water is quite disturbing (contraceptives, chlorine, pesticides, Etc.). I would have this rechecked and ask for a specific list of the water contents.>
We also have a gas heater, but it is fairly new, and we change the filters regularly.
<Another possibility. The gas could be releasing otherwise nontoxic emissions. May not be bad for us, but for aquatic life...Here's an idea. Go to your LFS and buy some Polyfilter (don't let them give you anything else). If you're not familiar with it, it is a small (maybe 4"x6"), compact, white sponge/block. Cut this to fit into your filter and let it run for a while (may take a week but doubtful). This pad will actually change color according to what it is removing from your water. This should tell you exactly what doesn't belong.>
Debbie
<Don't give up the fight. - Josh>

Re: 30 Gallon Hex, As In Curse - 01/02/2006
I forgot one more question.
<Shoot.>
When you say to break the tank down and bleach. Do you mean you have to replace the live rock and bio wheel as well? And what do I do with the old rock.  There are some living creatures on it, like a snail and some feather dusters.
<If it comes to this, I would normally assume all was tainted. However, these sensitive creatures are usually the first to go in toxic conditions. Their survival is a bit puzzling but I'm leaning toward the gas here. Perhaps the difference in respiration methods have made the difference. Let's see what that Polyfilter turns up.>
Debbie
<Josh>

Missing and Dead Tank Inhabitants - 12/21/2005
Hi,
<Hello Dave.>
As always great site - the best resource anywhere I would say...
<Thank you for the kind words.>
I have a 30 gallon tank with 1 small 2 inch Blue Tang, 1 Bicolor
Pseudochromis, a Neon Blue Goby, 2 small Clownfish, a as well as 1 Serpent Star, 4 dwarf Bluelegged Hermits, some Astraea Conehead snails, and some Bumblebee snails.
<You're over stocked friend. It's small now, but the Tang needs much larger quarters for a long, healthy life. The Pseudochromis is probably going to be too territorial for such a small space with this many fish.>
I have approximately 35 pounds of live rock and plan on adding coral in the near future as the tank chemistry wise is running fantastic (0 ppm in nitrite, ammonia, 20 ppm nitrate, alkalinity 3.8 meg/l, PH 8.3, specific gravity 1.023). Thing is in October I purchased 2 Cleaner Shrimp, pretty close to when I added around 15 additional pounds of cured live rock from the local fish store.
1 shrimp molted within 2 days and sadly was never see again...
At the time I also had a larger 2 1/2 inch Hermit Crab. In the last 2 months the large hermit was found out of its shell buried in the sand dead. The remaining Cleaners tail meat (honestly it looked like a shrimp cocktail) was found laying on the top of the rocks while its upper torso was found buried partially in the sand and under the rock. I thought that it had molted at first but when I found the tail mostly intact but shredded I knew it was dead. Also I have lost 2 Lettuce Nudibranchs and 2 - 1 1/2 inch Sally Lightfoot Crabs (have not seen a trace of them in over 1 month even at night using a flashlight because the crabs seems to come out more at night). Originally when I first bought the starfish I had 2 - because of very bad luck with starfish I figured it was a 50/50 shot that one would live.
<Are you selecting initially healthy specimens? Acclimating them properly?>
Two weeks after they were introduced the other starfish lost all of its legs. It was probably shock or not taking to acclimation that did it but you never really know... It died soon after but the other starfish is still alive and well.
<I would review your acclimation procedure. Compare notes against what's posted on WWM.>
Any clue what could kill these inverts? I know the Bicolor Pseudochromis will eat small shrimp but could it destroy the much larger (twice its size) cleaner shrimp?
<If not solely responsible, then the largest contributing factor. Perhaps the crabs helped once the shrimp were fatally wounded.>
Could the hermits eat the Nudibranchs?
<Possible, but they more likely starved. Voracious algae eaters.>
I am utterly confused as I thought most of what I had in the tank was compatible...
<I think the lack of territory/space is what's most at play here.>
Thanks for any advice!
Dave
<Gladys Dave. I think a tank upgrade or removal of at least the Tang will help tremendously. - Josh>

Re: Missing and Dead Tank Inhabitants - 12/21/2005
Josh,
<David!>
Thanks for the advice...
<Pleasure to be of service.>
I know I am overstocked, and I will be purchasing a pretty nice 90 gallon acrylic tank probably in the summer of 2006 (I am building a new house and construction begins when it warms up here in Chicago).
<Oh, good, and congrats. on the new place!>
Funny thing for the day the shrimp was killed is that I was out of town and the person who was watching the fish left early that day without feeding (before the lights turned on at 8 AM) - I arrived home at 2:30 PM - so maybe the Bicolor Pseudochromis was a bit hungry... Poor shrimp.
<Possibly...or just wrong place, wrong time.>
As it stands now with just the Blue Tang (still a baby at maybe 2 1/2 inches at the most), the 2 Clownfish (maybe 2 inch at the moment), Blue Goby (tiny), Bicolor Pseudochromis (about 2 inches), the few Bumblebee and assorted snails, and the Serpent Star, even though I am overstocked, and with water quality being pretty good, do you think I will make it till next summer without having to give away any fish?  
<For just the months until the new place? Hmm...Probably would be fine, but no promises. Just keep an eye on everyone.>
Not exactly sure the rate at which the Tang will grow, but even when I bought it I knew that I needed at least 70 gallons for this guy...
<The most important part is that you realized this and already planned to correct it.>
Water volume wise I probably have maybe 50 gallons - the sump is huge and purchased with the intention of using it when I purchase the 90 gallon tank. It’s rated for 125 gallons I believe. Regarding my bad luck with starfish (lost 2 serpents and one red sea star in 4 months - usually within a week), I have since learned...Actually when I received the 2 that I bought together (from dr. fosters or whatever online) the one that died already was missing half a leg.  I acclimated them both for about 6 hours using a slow drip.
<Good.>
In the past buying from a local and highly overpriced fish store, the first guy told me "just put the serpent right in" if the salinity and PH are ok.
<Yeah, just stick your hand in a blender if it fits!>
(sure the starfish was ok - but it died next day!), the next guy told me with the red sea star to acclimate for maybe 1 - 2 hours - the star exploded! Was disintegrating before my eyes...
<I think this was probably your fault:) Did you mention that you wanted them to live?:)>  
I called back to ask what the deal was and another guy told me he would acclimate for 8 hours! I think I will stick with a drip for 6 - 8 hours for my starfish.
<Good plan.>
The one star that survived and has been living with us for 2
months now which is much better than my previous attempts that lasted only a day or two. As you can obviously tell I have been only taking care of marine life since August...
<Not off to a bad start there, David. 5 mos. and you've outsmarted your LFS. You seem to be mindful of what you need to do for the best health of your livestock. You should get along just fine...just keep up the reading. If things go "South", you know where we are.>
Thanks again,
Dave
<No sweat. - Josh>

Funky Tank, Funky English...In a Bad Way - 12/17/2005
<Please, please capitalize and spell check in the future Frannie.>
I started a salt water tank about 5 months ago. The brown algae took over. Finally it passed so I put a fish in the tank to see if it was ready, the fish is fine and seems to be doing well I also put in a Blenny.
<Did you test the water to check if the cycle was finished?>
And some hermit crabs to eat the excess crap, but now it seems as if the rock is nasty and the brown algae is taking over again, the rock is really dirty and it just doesn't seem to be getting any better, I have blown it off a few times and the crabs are not helping much.
<Sounds like the diatoms were replaced by BGA (Cyano). Crabs won't really eat it.>
I can't seem to be able to keep any coral alive at all and even the hardy Star Polyps won't stay alive in my tank but my fish is just fine, the problem seems to be if I put a polyp in the tank about five minutes later it sucks it self in to its tubes and never comes out and then it dies off.
<Has this not prompted you to test the water yet!? Please stop adding corals for now.>
Please help me save my tank it has a fish, crabs and an Emerald Crab that came with 80 pounds of rock that I ordered and a decorator crab that came with a rock that had some mushrooms on it that I bought from the store. I would hate to see my little guys die because I'm not doing something right ...
<They will, undoubtedly, unless you start doing the basic "chores" that are keeping an aquarium. If you're not testing the water you should start. Have you done a water change since you set this up? Are you trying to run this tank like a freshwater set up? Read our FAQ's on Marine Tank Set Up, Maintenance, Testing, Water Quality and Toxic Water Conditions just to start. Do you have a skimmer? If no then get one.>
PLEASE HELP...
<Can offer more when you've resolved the testing issues. We'll need at least tank parameters, size and maintenance routine.>
Yours truly can't get it right!
<Just have to start right and follow through.>
Frannie Crain
Colorado Springs, Colorado
<Josh>

Re: Funky Tank, Funky English...In A Bad Way - 12/18/2005
Well Josh,
<Uh-oh. Uh...Hi Frannie!>
First off I do test the water and the ph <pH> is fine as well as ammonia and nitrates.
<Good then. You must understand that I can only go by what is submitted. You made no mention of any tank parameters so I assumed you were not measuring any.>
Also, I have done water changes since I set up my tank.
<Also glad to hear this.>
My tank is 60 gallons. And yes I do have a skimmer.
<Another relief.>
I thought this would be a great place to get advice as well as order some of the books to better get information for my tank.
<Still can be, you just have to help us help you. Books can't be ordered here but there are links to places that sell them.>
I just never thought I would be insulted.
<I do apologize, this was not my intention. Given the information that I had, I felt that these were the most likely places that things were going wrong.>
All I did was ask for help, I didn't think in any way I was being rude.
<Nor do I. If you would still like help, please resubmit the query and include: exact tank parameters (spg, temp., nitrite, nitrate, ammonia and any thing else you test for), lighting, maintenance procedures (how you mix your water, if mixed in advance, top offs) acclimation procedures, how the live stock looks before your tank, additives if any, Etc. Without anything specific, who's to know where your problem lies. - Josh>

Mystery Deaths  12/10/05
Dear Bob,
<Actually Adam J helping you out today while Bob is out.>
Thanks for all your help and now if when I need it the most.
<Uh-oh the pressure is on.>
I have a 60 gallon tank with 1 powerhead, 1 hang on wet/dry, 1 hang on mechanical filter and a hang on protein skimmer (150 gph).
<Okay.>
My ammonia/nitrate and nitrite are 0. salts at 1.21 (a little low since I do weekly sand bed cleaning and water changes).
<Sounds good as long as it is stable for fish.>
Here's my problem, I had in my tank:
2 Percula clowns
1 Flame angel
1 Royal Gamma
1 Yellow Tang (small)
1 Hippo tang (small) - TO be transferred to a 190 gallon when it grew
1 Dwarf Lionfish
<Even at juvenile stages this is quite a heavy load on this tank.>
Anyways I had problems with the lionfish eating frozen foods. So my LFS told me to starve it 10 days and if it wouldn't eat feed it and starve it again. 
<There are other methods I prefer to use, such as goat loaded ghost shrimp, in emergencies like this not long term of course, frozen food is the best route.>
Well after the 3rd week of doing this at their suggestion The lion died (Don't know what part of the day). When I got home I removed him from where a crab had been nibbling on him and went about my business.  I noticed a few fish acting odd, but when I fed them they all ate and went to their resting places when the lights went off. Next Morning everything but the Inverts were dead. Ammonia was still at 0.
<This is odd for everything to be zero after the death of such a large fish, did you verify these results with a local dealer?>
DO Lionfish release toxins when they die into the water?
<Not that I know of.><<Yes, can. RMF>>
If not any clue as to what would cause such an exodus. I looked at your site but couldn't find any mention of toxic release.
<To be on the safe side go forward with some large water changes as well as running some carbon.>
Thanks
<Welcome, Adam J.>

Tank won't support more than 2 fish 
Dear wet web media- 
<Brian>
I really enjoy reading your site-so much info. I have had saltwater tanks for about 7 years. I have had a 75 going for all that time with great success (fish live). Two years ago I started a 265 gallon FOWLR. It has about 4 inches of aragonite, 200 lbs. of live rock. I have a Euro-Reef cs 12-1 and run ozone. My ORP has been about 380 and steady without the ozone kicking on (I have it set to kick on at 350). Ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate are all testing 0. In my back room I have the 75 and a 30 that I have been using as Q tanks. 
Fish thrive in the quarantine. 
I have had a emperor angel for over a year in the 75 that I have been waiting until I feel confident in the big tank to put it in. I have been letting the fish stay in the 30 for around a month before I introduce them to the 265. Any time I get more than 2 fish in the 265 things start to die. 
I am at my wits end. The only difference between the big tank and the quarantine tanks is I don't have bio balls on the big tank. I thought that the live rock would act as natural filtration. Do you think this is my problem? 
<Brian, the live rock does act as a biological filter but as with any bio filter the denitrification bacteria are only present in enough numbers as their food supply permits. I'm thinking you are adding large fish to the system, maybe too many at once. Did you ever test for ammonia a few hours after the introduction of the fish? James (Salty Dog)>
Thank you for any advice you can give me.
Brian Dufner 

A question for you. Perhaps a bad joke re lion, other fishes, Insanity  11/21/05
HI bob,
<Bob>
i
<I>
<< <sigh> Here we go again...  MH>>
got your e-mail off of a post on Reefland.com and I was wondering if you could help me with my lion fish, I think he is sick because he's changed colors, he use to be red and now is an orange-brown color. The nitrate level in my tank is a bit high
<High? Non-informational>
(we've been trying to bring it down with water changes and adding bacteria that we got from the fish store but it hasn't
really worked) we have him in a 55 gallon tank with a purple tang, bamboo shark, angelfish and a puffer.
<You're pulling my fins? Insanely crowded, mis-mixed>
His main diet is freshwater feeder shrimp (that's all he will actually eat) what is wrong with him?
Thanks
Lisa
<Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/liondisfaqs.htm and the linked files above. Bob Fenner> 

URGENT - info not found & fish dying  9/11/05
Please can someone help. We have a 150g FOWLR and have had 2 clowns for about 5 months. Other fish
are yellow tang (5 months), 4 Chromis (2 weeks) 1 baby regal tang (1 month).
Readings are
temp - 78
amm - 0
nitrite - 0
nitrate -0
phos - 0
calcium - 480
<High>
alk - 3
<Low... and related to the high calcium...>
Oxygen - 5mg
SG 1.023
PH - 8.4
I am trying to post a picture but am struggling to do so, can someone please let me know how as the clown
as he has a dark mark on the centre white patch. He is also swimming in different areas of the tank now therefore is acting strange.. We also had a blue cheek goby who we took out 2 days ago who also appeared to have
this this, and died sadly although we struggled to get him to eat.
We are newbies and haven't seen this before, especially with good water readings.
on closer inspection I have noticed that his eyes seem a little 'clouded over' compared with the other clown.
<Something amiss...>
Can someone please let me know what this is and what to do about it as I fear we may lose a much loved
clown or even worse the whole tank....
An urgent reply would be so much appreciated.
Many thanks in advance
Paul
<... I would change out a good deal of the water here... not adding whatever the cause of the high calcium (may be a supplement, the salt mix...) add chemical filtrant/s in your filter flow path... You don't mention quarantine... Bob Fenner>

Horrendous Situation  9/11/05
Hello,
This is Valerie and right now I am extremely alarmed!!!  Yesterday, much to
my shock, my blue damsel started to do barrel rolls and I knew that it would
no doubt die.  I am ashamed to admit that I was happy about this.  I have
been trying to catch this damsel for months because it was quite unsightly
with several gashes on its side that never healed.  At any rate, I foolishly
assumed that the damsel had succumbed to the gashes and the barrel rolling
was simply a result of these wounds.  Having no equilibrium made the catch
quite easy which pleased me and quite frankly, I felt good.  This morning I
was punished in the most horrendous way for deriving pleasure over the death
of the damsel.   In the early morning hours I love to sit and watch the tank
as it is so relaxing.  Suddenly, out of nowhere, my beautiful Royal Gramma
barrel rolled into view.  In a instant I knew that the Damsels death had
nothing to do with the wounds on its side.    I am terrified that all of my
fish will perish from this horrid problem.    I have a 75 gallon reef tank
with numerous corals, yellow tang, two percula clowns, two pajama cardinals,
three Anthias, one coral beauty and a spunky goby.  I feel physically sick
wondering who will be next.  Please help me.
Sincerest Thanks,
Valerie
<Something... very wrong here... environmental, but what? The usual large water changes, adding chemical filtrants (Carbon, Polyfilter) to your filter flow path are recommended... Do check your water quality... and list what other fish life you have... I suspect, that there is some overt chemical poisoning here... likely originating from within the system, and most likely from your sessile invertebrates... Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marenvdi.htm
and the linked Related FAQs at top... in the hopes that others experiences will grant you insight. Bob Fenner>

Re: Horrendous Situation  9/12/05
Thank you for responding.  My situation has worsened.  My second damsel has
died form this terrible condition.  The poor thing was rolling and spinning
throughout the tank in a frenzied fashion.  I was able to catch him and put
him in the hospital tank.  Unfortunately he expired almost immediately.  No
doubt the shock by being placed in another tank.  After much research I
thought possibly it could be a swim bladder disorder but you did not mention
that in your response to me.
<... not... A source of poisoning...>
I am literally feeling nauseous over this.
You mentioned that there could be poisoning from within the system.. Could I
have done this?  I treated a case of Ich that was quite minor but persistent
and used Kick Ich in the main tank for several weeks.  
<... not a good idea>
It seemed to cure the
problem but now I wonder if I did more damage than good.   The corals housed
in the tank are as follows:  Colt Coral, Star Polyps, Goniopora
dijiboutiensis (apologies if that is spelled wrong), Leather coral, Xenia,
Orange sun polyps and two Leathers.   Could it be the Goniopora?
<Yes... but others as well in this mix>
  I have
the usual crew of snails and crabs (25 total) and one cleaner shrimp.  PH is
8.2, Ammonia 0 ppm, Nitrite is 0 ppm and Nitrates are at 20 ppm.  I have
always struggled with the Nitrates. We  have a Excalibur Skimmer and two
Emperor Filters, one double and one single.  Approximately 110 lb of live
rock.   I have done a 10 gallon water change,
<I would make these change outs much larger for now... like thirty gallons a day for a few days>
put in new filters and also
just put in a filter bag of Chemi-pure.  I don't house any aggressive fish
in the tank.  The most aggressive would no doubt be the Tang but he is
really quite harmless.
<Not the fishes, the cnidarians... the "corals" and relatives>
The two clowns squabble on occasion but nothing
serious.  I do have a Green Mandarin in the tank but doubt that he is
responsible.    I feel so frustrated!  No matter how much I read and learn I
always end up feeling  like an uneducated novice and guilty about attempting
such a exacting hobby.   I had one LTA in the tank but returned it to the
LFS several days ago.  I had read that LTA's were not recommended for a
coral reef tank.
<Correct>
  Again, thank you so much for your time and please don't think poorly of me for my ignorance.
Valerie    
<Ignorance is acceptable... we are here to share, offer folks the opportunity to be less... Am still convinced that this is a straight-forward case of allelopathy (please put this term in the Google search tool on WWM)... a new dynamic (through water changes, use of chemical filtrants) needs to be developed, the toxic presence there to be sufficiently diluted. Bob Fenner>

Light shock from bulb replacement?  9/1/05
Hello Crew,
<Tom>
I have a 75 gallon tank with one toadstool leather coral and two clownfish.
Last month, I replaced four 65-watt power compact bulbs and charcoal on the following schedule:
7/2/05  13 month old 50/50 bulb replaced
7/4/05  10.7 month old 50/50 bulb replaced
7/6/05   new charcoal in
<This is an important bit of data... as you likely know>
7/15/05 13.25 month old 10K bulb replaced
7/21/05 12.7 month old 10K bulb replaced
I went on vacation 7/24-8/4.  While on vacation, my daily fish caretaker called to say the power was out (GFCI had tripped).  Power was restored, but it could have been out for as much as 24 hours.  There was no canister filter or wet-dry filter to go bad with a power loss.  And the fish had no problem.  I'm not sure about the leather coral.
On returning from vacation, the coralline algae appeared mostly gone, except less so in areas sheltered from the light.  And it seemed like the macroalgae was largely gone too.  The rocks looked mostly light brown.
My son says this type of bulb loses about 50% of its output every 6 months.  If that's true, I would have more than quadrupled the light over about a 3 week period.
<Yes>
My questions: Do you think light shock accounts for what happened to my tank?
<Mmm, could... directly and not>
If so, do I have to replace these bulbs more frequently, or on a more stretched-out schedule, or somehow stagger when they need to be replaced (e.g. replace one every 3 months)?
<Better to stagger as you mention>
Or was the power outage a major contributor to what happened?
<It could have been as much... from the stress of irregular environment on the Leather/Alcyoniid... that might have released sufficient chemicals into your water to kill off the algae... not from a days lack of light. Bob Fenner>
Thanks,
Tom

Damsels Won't Even Stay Alive 8/30/05
I started a saltwater tank back in October of last year, didn't really have any problems for the first 6 months until all my fish died not sure why, they died like dominos one after the other in a weekly span. I let the tank sit for a month or two with the filters off, well i restarted the tank and i cant even
keep a damsel alive more than a week it looks like there getting ick or some other parasite, I ve read your faq's spent hours on the net water parameters are fine according to my test kit, I just don't know what to do, the tank has 2 filters magnum 350 and a hang on the back penguin 330,9 pounds of live rock, if
there is a parasite how do I get rid of it change all the water, is a 65 gallon tank, if you have any questions please email me back, I don't know what to do
<Hi Friend, looks as if you have many kinks you need to work out in order to have a successful saltwater aquarium. My first recommendation would be to do a large water change and replace your filter cartridges. Additionally, instead of spending money on so many damsels, consider investing in a box of high quality live rock (generally a box of good quality Fiji, Marshall or Tonga liverock is 44pounds, which would be perfect amount for your tank). Let the liverock, filters and tank 'run' for a good 8 weeks without any fish or other critters. Resist the urge to add any fish at this time. During this time, pick up a few saltwater aquarium books and begin reading ::insert Fenner's Conscientious Marine Aquarist plug here:: After the 8 weeks, check your water parameters using a high quality and accurate test kit such as the Salifert brand. If all is well, you can add one or two small peaceful fish (avoid most damsels). If all is still well, you may add a few more small peaceful fish over the following weeks/months. Remember, this is a saltwater tank and it is prudent to maintain a low fish bioload in a small tank such as a 65 gallon. As you familiarize yourself more with this wonderful hobby, you can then upgrade aquarium sizes and consider adding other forms of marine life. Good luck and keep researching. - Ali>

Death Tank, SW  8/30/05
I started a saltwater tank back in October of last year, didn't really have any problems for the first 6 months until all my fish died not sure why, they died like dominos one after the other in a weekly span. I let the tank sit for a month or two with the filters off, well i restarted the tank and i cant even keep a damsel alive more than a week it looks like there getting ick or some other parasite, I've read your faq's spent hours on the net water parameters are fine according to my test kit, I just don't know what to do, the tank has 2 filters magnum 350 and a hang on the back penguin 330, 9 pounds of live rock, if there is a parasite how do I get rid of it change all the water, is a 65 gallon tank, if you have any questions please email me back, I don't know what to do
<Something is amiss here... either toxic as in the tank itself, or a recurring pathogen... If it were me/mine, I'd bleach this tank (hence killing all), allow it to run for a month or two fish-less and try a test damsel or two... then if this doesn't "fix" the problem, systematically remove some element (the substrate, rock) and re-try till the problem is identified. Bob Fenner>

Re: Death Tank, SW, sterilizing 9/7/05
You said to start over and bleach everything, even the live rock, half water half bleach?
<Ahh, no... the mixture should be about ten percent "bottled bleach" strength... nine parts water. Please adapt/adopt the action plan detailed here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/clnornart.htm
Bob Fenner>