Re: A New Parasite? - Please Help my Hawkfish... same over/mis crowded mess, diff. day    8/20/08
Hi Bob and/or Crew
<Adam>
Thank you for your previous reply, it gave me a lot of things to consider. I realize this email will be a bit long but I'm going to try and be as detailed as I can because I really have no idea what to do next, and I also have several questions. As you suggested I looked online for a Marine Hobbyist group for a guru expert that could come over and look at my tank and set-up. Unfortunately I was unsuccessful in finding anyone to come over but I did find a group that meets in a city about an hour away, but haven't heard back from anyone I contacted. I feel horrible having to take up your time but as far as Marine Guru's you're the best shot I have currently. So thank you so much in advance for taking the time to read my email and help out.
Since you last emailed me I have spent lots of time on WWM reading but still have found no definite answers or solutions, I realize these probably don't exist but I do really value the advice you give me. Since we last emailed I have done several things to rule out other possibilities:
1) I returned my snowflake eel LFS. My 100 gallon tank is now down to six fish. All aggression and stress from the aggression seems to have been removed, at least for the time being. So my six remaining fish are as follows;
-2ft zebra moray eel
<One last time: Return this animal... Needs more room, not a good choice with Lions>
-1 1/4in dwarf lionfish
-2in fu man Chu lionfish
-1in sphex lionfish
-1in flame angel
-3 1/2in giant Hawkfish
Do you think that my tank is still overstocked?
<... I know it is>
Basically the way I feel is that if I have to remove more fish down to the bare minimum, I would NOT be willing
<...>
to part with my zebra eel, sphex lionfish, or my giant Hawkfish. If I cant keep these I don't really see much point in keeping a tank. They are by far my favorite and very hardy fish that seem to get along well.
<Then get either another tank... of 150 plus gallons for the Gymnomuraena... and leave the other fishes in the present one>
I hate to remove anymore fish but if I have to I will. I realize I am an idiot that made the beginners mistake of massively overstocking my tank way too quickly as I have already returned five fish. I feel like with their current size the tank is not overstocked right now but I know some will have to go as they grow. Your thoughts?
<Are posted>
2) I performed a 35gallon water change. Water readings are now ammonia=0, nitrite=0,nitrate=15ppm, and ph=8.1.
3)I installed an electric grounding probe to eliminate the possibility of stray electric currents stressing them out.
<Not the root problem here... The mis and over-stocking is>
OK so I have basically eliminated the possibility that it is a dissolved oxygen problem, I have plenty of surface agitation to facilitate proper gas exchange with a skimmer, two emperor 400 filters, and a power head. My protein skimmer has only been running for ten days so the water quality should be improved and improving with that running. By all outward signs it seems my water quality is good and environment is suitable. The only other environmental issue you brought up as a possibility is ReDox. To be honest I'm not exactly sure what that is, I'm sure it is on WWM and I just haven't had time to read it. I have spent hours upon hours reading this site but being that I have a job I don't haven't had enough time to read in entirety such a massive information resource, in enough time to solve this problem. I got the feeling that you suspected an unknown environmental problem, maybe I read your response wrong, but if so any other ideas as to what it might be?
<I do suspect this "unknown"... Metabolite poisoning of some sort... the easiest, most sure solution is stock reduction>
When I performed my water change yesterday the Hawkfish seemed to cheer up and started swimming around more like he usually does when behaving healthy. He even ate a small bite of food which was a first in five days. Last night he was still scratching but not as regularly. When I returned home today he was scratching just as much as before the water change and refused to eat. I took a really long look at his skin. It does show some slight discoloration but it is so hard to tell being that he has strange colors that change with some regularity. But over all he is what I would describe as 'paler' than he appeared when healthy. His skin looks rough from constantly scratching the sand. I don't know if this is a parasite or his normal markings but he has red dots that slightly stick out like pimples, but he has red spots, and they don't look much different than when I first acquired him, so might be nothing. His belly is definitely much more pink than it used to be, also probably from scratching. He is the only fish not eating.
The only other fish showing any physical or behavioral symptoms is the flame angel. His colors have also slightly dulled, and his back and pectoral fins show some deterioration. He scratches against the live rock constantly but still is active and eats normally.
There are a several observations I have made that I hope may help you with some clues as to what is going on.
1) I think the Hawkfish pooped yesterday and it was totally white and in one solid string, almost resembling a worm but not alive. I didn't actually see him excrete but it came floating from behind him when he was sitting at the back of the tank.
2) While observing him closely for almost an hour today he went on a crazy scratching episode and when he laid down something came off him. It was extremely small but resembled in my mind either an isopod or copepod. It looked like a clear extremely tiny rolly polly. It was so small I lost sight of it quickly. I know I had some copepods living on my live rock before I put fish in the tank but haven't seen them since introducing my fish. It might have just flown from off the liverock when he perched.
3)The Hawkfish only scratches the areas near his gills pectoral fins and belly.
4)The only two seemingly sick fish seem to rub against each other a lot.
5)The Hawkfish seems to like to stay where there is a lot of water flow over his body.
6)The Hawkfish seems to have these strange convulsions every now and again like something is biting him but no fish around him. (Come to think of it some of the fish I returned were displaying these same symptoms)
7)I had a Singapore angel. I returned him for what I thought was aggression because he was pecking at my Hawkfish, in hindsight I think he might have been trying to clean the Hawkfish of parasites, but no way to know for sure but that behavior did not appear overly aggressive more of a cleaning behavior.
All of this leads me to believe that the Hawkfish and flame angel have either an internal or external parasite (more likely) and that they are trying to scratch them off their skin. I don't know what else I can do to improve the water quality except do more water changes. I don't believe it to be ich or any of the other major disease I read about on WWM. There are no white spots on any of the affected fish. The only fish in my tank that has any white is my zebra eel on the very tip of the tail. He has had this since he jumped out of my tank, it maybe dead skin or a slight infection being that he spent over an hour out of water. But he seems healthy and normal other than that slight whiteness on his tail tip. I feel like these are natural parasites that increased in number, strangely only on two of my fish, and these parasites started to make these fish sick over time due to poor water quality and stress from aggression due to my overstocking my tank. I realize that I am a beginner but that is my best guess. Although I don't know how pinpoint exactly what that parasite that might be. Any advice you have on this would be much appreciated.
I talked to the guys at the local fish store and they thought that it was also a parasite. They advised several types of medicine to treat my tank with, do a preventative treatment for each with this either QuickCure or formalin, but if I have learned anything from WWM, it is don't get crazy and go randomly medicating your tank. I know they are only trying to help but also realize that its a business. I especially don't want to randomly medicate my tank when no other fish are sick now, the affected fish don't seem well, but aren't on death's doorstep either, at least not yet. I have no quarantine or hospital tank. If I had to dip them they would have to go back into my only tank. Unfortunately I don't have the money or space to get another tank set up. So if this gets really bad I would have to treat my main tank. But I don't want to do anything till I know what I'm dealing with.
So in my meager beginners opinion I think I should:
1) Keep doing water changes as needed to maintain optimum water conditions.
2) Possibly do freshwater dips without any medication, maybe just some hydrogen peroxide on these affected fish (I know you said no dips, but would just freshwater hurt them?)
3) Sit and wait and see what happens.
A real concern is that if it is parasites are they spreading and infecting my tank, so if dips were successful and I had to put the fish back in my tank am I simply returning them to an infected tank, rendering the dips useless?
>Worst than useless<
I feel like if the water is as good as I can get it, and the scratching continues that I am forced to eventually treat the tank in some way but I will not do anything till I hear back from you.
Again thank you so much for all you help and the great site. I'm sorry for bothering you with all this. I only wished I had found your site before setting my tank up =(
Cheers,
Adam
<Nothing more to state. Bob Fenner>

I'm perplexed...Fin Rot or not? Not, pred.   8/5/08
Crew - I have a one spot rabbit fish, a flame angel and a Banggai cardinal all that appear to show some degree of fin rot especially the rabbit.
<Mmmm>
I have a 65g live
<Too small for a Siganid>
reef with a 35g fuge run Ecosystem method. I have a skimmer rated for a tank twice my size, the fuge is rated for a tank
twice my size, I conduct 12g water changes religiously each and every week (that's almost 90% WC/month), and I run a phosphate reactor
<... I'd get rid of this. May be a/the source of trouble here>
and UV.
I don't over feed, well ok almost don't overfeed, have no algae problems or any problems other then some of my fish have tattered fins.
<... Mmm, something amiss here... no apparent bullying, night-time invertebrate predators coming out working these fishes woe? I'd be checking with a flashlight, baiting/trapping to remove them>
All my water parameters are totally in line.
The Rabbit lost most of his tail, almost overnight, when I first got into the hobby 2 years ago so as a newbie I always thought "that's how I bought him" and thinking he was probably mauled as a juvenile and had permanent fin damage. Then a few weeks ago, again almost like overnight, my flame had tattered fins and lost his tail as well. Now one of my Banggai lost her banner fin.
<Again... this reads like a Mantis or possibly Alpheid issue>
Now, on close inspection of the fish I see no other signs or symptoms that would present infection. No red marks on the anus, no redness on the fin tips, no whitish signs, and mouths are in perfect shape...simply no other symptom of infection or bacteria can be found with the naked eye.
The fish behave perfectly normally, eat like pigs and in all other regards appear as healthy as fish can be.
I'd think fin and tail rot if the fish exhibited other symptoms but they don't. My water quality is near perfect and my husbandry more then what is necessary to keep a healthy tank. I have no crabs, no sea stars, no purchase predator and the rest of my fish are all community types that rarely if ever show aggression towards each other.
So what gives? Fin Rot or a predator possibly that I am not aware of?
<The latter. Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
the last tray. Bob Fenner>
--
Gene

Re: I'm perplexed...Fin Rot or not?  8/5/08
Bob - First, thank you for the reply, very much appreciated. Tell me please, how could a Phosphate Reactor contribute to fin damage?
<This tool... WWM is NOT a bb... see the site re, elsewhere on the Net re the use of such...>
Is it because I do enough water changes combined with skimming and an oversize fuge that I am removing too many phosphates and other needed trace water products?
<More this last>
Please, let me know your thoughts here as I am now very intrigued.
Thanks Bob!!!!!
Gene
<Sorry to state Gene... I just don't have the time... B>

Fish Coloration, and stress  - 7/24/08
Hey crew
Good day to you all, I hope all is well.
<Hello! The same to you!>
I have a quick question that I looked and looked on the site for the answer but had no luck. I may be looking in the wrong place, but I thought I would ask anyway.
<Okay>
So I have a little green chromis that shares a 60gal with two big chromis. Well, the little guy has always had a blotchy or spotty looking coloration but his behavior seems normal. When I put the first chromis in the tank to help cycle the tank he also appeared like this as well, but shortly grew out of it. My question is what causes this coloration? He does get picked on by the other two a little, but nothing that keeps him from strutting around the tank and eating everything I put in. I read the articles about why and how fish change color and the various types (cited here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/AqSciSubWebIndex/coloration.htm). Well, the concern I really have is more related to my Kole Tang that has been in the tank for about three weeks now and doing great.
<Needs more space...>
Although, this morning, I turned the lights on earlier then usual, and his coloration looked blotchy and spotty like the chromis. I immediately put a pinch of pellet food in and he gobbled it up. I took a shower and got ready for work and went and checked on him (about 20 minutes overall). He was fine. Color back to normal and active as usual. I took two samples of my water today to check at my LFS on my lunch. I figure maybe I have a water quality issue, so I will have it checked and do a water change tonight (which I regularly do every other week). Now I have never noticed this before on him, although, he is a bit skittish still. He is the man of the tank. The other fish leave him alone and somewhat "run" the other way when he comes around except for the maroon, they seem to have become friends. I did introduce two new fish to the tank a few days ago. They were a Orchid Dottyback and a Lawnmower Blenny.
<Quarantined?>
I do know that the Orchids can be a touch ornery, but I have yet to see him since he was added. Could he be causing stress to the tang for a change of coloration? Well I hope this was enough information. Thanks for your time and constant attention to helping people like me.
<I'd say this is most likely stress due to crowding or water quality issues- do see about a larger home for that tang, as well as quarantining new arrivals for 4-6 weeks. Water changes and the works as well, varied feeding...general stress most likely the culprit here.>
Spencer
<Benjamin>

Is my problem lights? or the loss of my deep sand bed? - 07/19/08
Hi,
<Hello there>
I've been dabbling in marine for the past six years. (It is my son's hobby.) When he went to Afghanistan I babysat his fish. He had a 90g, MH lighting, fluval canister, 2in sand bed,
<Mmm, you may want to increase or decrease this depth... Please see WWM re>
60lbs LR. All seemed to go well and I was able to give his fish back in good condition.
I found myself setting up a 65g with the extras we had lying around, all had gone fairly well. I used 3 dbl UVHO current fixtures, Eheim Ecco, 4-5 in sandbed, and a red prism skimmer ( I did not like that skimmer, but my son had purchased it early on and it was on hand.)
<I see>
When he went to Iraq his wife babysat the 120g and I inherited the 90 gal which has stood empty. He's returning safely from Iraq and is shutting down the 120g preparing for a cross country move. I've set up the 90g again to receive whatever we can save. (He's giving what he can back to the LFS) It's been running for the past 3m. MH 10k lighting, trickle filter, ETSS skimmer, 2-3in aragonite as he now has corals, I also added about 20# of base rock to seed for a sump I'm planning.
I thought it would be a good opportunity to redo the 65g and change a few things as long as I had all that extra room, water etc... BIG MISTAKE!!!!!!!!!!!! I've slowly moved rock and then inhabitants to the 90g. But nothing has gone well. I must be paying my dues (by suffering thru the loss of color, die off, nuisance algae, etc...) others have lamented about. Trying to correct everything with more freq and bigger water changes and increasing flow.
After cleaning the 65g I'm setting it back up, hoping my son can put off shutting down the 120g until things settle down. I know this has been a lot of changing around, but all had gone well up till now.
I've reread thru the basics yet still consider myself a novice. I read a lot and then make a guess at which correction is being recommended. I don't always understand the why? but I've had luck trusting in your knowledge base and experience.
<Mmmm>
My main question is: Could my problem be the change from UVHO to MH10k or the loss of the deep sand bed?
<The last could well be a factor>
I was afraid to reuse the sand because of expected die off of bacteria from the move. It's sitting wet in a bucket waiting for me to figure how to clean it for reusing.
<Rinse it thoroughly, perhaps consider air-drying it before re-use>
On the 65gal hex I have lights on top and down two of the sides. The inches from fixture to LR was between 4-12 in. When my son first got the 65g at a yard sale, the local LFS said it could not be used for marine.
<Mmm, for what reason/s?>
(Doesn't that sound like a challenge!) On the 90g the 2 MH10k's are about 6in above the cover glass. The tank is 24in deep. I do not understand the lighting comparisons to decide what to change. I tried switching to the UVHO's for a month but saw no improvement. I put the MH's back up thinking they are able to penetrate to a deeper depth.
<They are...>
Is there something else I'm missing? Fish bioload was heavy for the 65g but I thought would be ok in the 90g.
<Should be better...>
2 orange clown, White sand sifting goby, yellow clown goby, violet Dottyback , 7 blue/green chromis, Yellow Tang, ast. snails and crabs.
<These should be fine here>
I enjoy your site and read when ever I can. Thanks for your time and patience.
Le
<I would re-instate the DSB. Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/marine/setup/index.htm
The seventh tray down... on Marine Substrates. Bob Fenner>

Fish Additions Not Surviving   7/17/2008
Hello Crew: <Hey it's IanB, it's nice to be back>
I recently experienced a tragedy in my 150 gallon reef. I lost most of my fish stock due to what I believe was a disease issue from the latest addition to the tank (powder blue surgeon). <sorry to hear> I say "I believe was a disease issue" because I am not 100% certain this was the case (although fairly positive). I thought it might have been a low PH problem, I hadn't checked my PH levels in a few weeks as all parameters in my tank were quite well (with the exception of a little high nitrate (about 20-30ppm)) and suddenly I lost about 6 fish in a 48 hour period, and lost a few more within the next few days.<ich maybe?> The initial loss was about 2 days after adding the powder blue (leading me to believe it was diseased). I tested all parameters and noticed that my PH was down around 8.0 - 8.1, however my KH was around 10. I have tried to get my PH back up to more appropriate levels by adding buffering products, but it continuously dropped back down. I have been told that having a lower PH is okay as long as KH is up, true?<doubt this would cause the fishes death> The only somewhat recent change I made is changing from InstantOcean salt mix to Red Sea Coral Pro (which I head may cause a drop in PH).
Anyway, since the tragedy I have been restocking, (now including a quarantine period, unfortunate that it took a disaster for me to finally adhere to the constant advice of quarantine! quarantine! quarantine! ) but for some reason all new additions to the tank don't survive (I have even lost fish in quarantine). I have attempted to add a Regal Angel twice (1 Red Sea and 1 non Red Sea), a Kole Tang twice, a
Tomini Tang, a Pearlscale Butterfly, a couple of Fire Fish as well as a
couple of true Perculas.<I would most definitely stay away from Regal Angels, unless you have an abundant coral population and a 8-10 foot aquarium> All have perished within 3-4 days, except the
Perculas and Fire fish (they lasted a few weeks/months). The new additions don't seem to be eating very hardily (except for the Perculas and Fire fish), maybe they were wasting away? Even if they are eating good in quarantine, they don't in the main tank (again, except for the Perculas and Fire fish). The survivors of the tragedy are doing great, this includes a Flame Angel (since removed), Copperbanded Butterfly, some Chromis, and Goby, this is why I feel it is NOT a water parameter issue. I thought the problem may be night attacks from the Flame Angel, so I removed him, but no luck. The only current recent additions that have been doing fine are 2 Bartlett's Anthias. This whole restock issue is just very surprising to me as my initial stocking went so well (up until the tragedy). The only things I can think of that may be causing this are:
1) The terrorizing Flame Angel (who is now gone, and I have still lost new additions). <stress is one of the leading causes of ornamental fish death)
2) low PH (8.0 - 8.1). <this could be the problem but I highly doubt it.>
3) higher temperature in the main tank. Summer temp for my tank here in California ranges between 80.5 - 82.5. I do not run a chiller and all other existing fish are fine. Maybe new additions can't acclimate to this higher temp. I do a slow drip for about 45 minutes. <would try to acclimate them for a longer period of time, or invest in a chiller and/or turn your ac down to cool the aquarium, (you can also try running the lights less throughout the day. unless corals are kept)>
4) Somewhat high nitrates (30ish ppm). I had a skimmer issue and nitrates got a bit high while fixing it. <30ppm nitrates is not bad. many times when I visit wholesalers nitrate levels are 200+ppm and the fish are still alive>
5) A combination of things like the Flame Angel, or acclimation, or just bad luck. <could be your source of fish, I would definitely quarantine all fish because in my experience all fish come with parasites of some fashion>
Water Parameters:
Salinity: 1.024 - 1.025
Temp: summer - 80.5 - 82.5 / non-summer - 77 - 79
Nitrite: 30ppm
Ammonia: 0
Nitrate: 0
PH: 8.0 - 8.1
KH: 10
Phosphate: 0.03 or less with the exception of an occasional spike.
Current Fish:
1 Copperbanded Butterfly
1 Diamond Goby
2 Bartlett's Anthias
5 Blue/Green Chromis
Various cleaning crew
<all are pretty hardy fish, except the b/f fish>
Corals - seem to not be affected by any of this
1 Torch
1 Bubble
1 Xenia
1 Candy
Various SPS frags
Various mushrooms/Ricordea
<these corals are all fairly tolerant/hardy species>
Thanks for your time, any thoughts on this issue would be appreciated.
<again I would continue to quarantine fish for 4-6 weeks before introducing them to your main aquarium, if you put fish directly in the main system your chances of disease are great, good luck, IanB>
-Chris