55 gal. reef w/ mysterious Cnidarian et al. types of life issues   11/14/09
Dear Crew,
<John>
I absolutely cringe that I have to ask a question but I have been on WWM for several hours and the wife is giving me the wrap it up signal...
<Heeeee! Maybe she'd appreciate a referee's jersey and a whistle for Xmas?!>
Little about my system: 55 gallon mixed reef that is overstocked, (4" maroon clown, 4" scopas tang, 3" blackcap Basslet, 2" purple Firefish, 2" Sixline wrasse, 1" pajama cardinal, and a 1" yellow tail damsel). Also a coral banded shrimp. Before I continue I want to state the scopas tang is only held in my system because my friend is moving. It goes home in a few days. Either that or I am giving it away. I am utilizing a 1" sugar fine sand, and I don't even know how much LR but suffice it to say the display is about half full and rock rubble is in the sump bio ball compartment, the sump flow through and the canister filter. Canister is an Eheim, not sure which model but it is rated for 296 GPH. Skimmer is an Aqua C Urchin Pro with a mag 5 pump inside a Megaflow 1 sump (10 gallons?). Lighting is provided by 2 - 175 10,000 Kelvin MH bulbs and 2 - 96 watt actinic supplements. For flow I am using the canister filter, a quiet one return pump from the sump, a Koralia 1 and a Koralia 4. Parameters are excellent.
Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate unmeasurable by means of Aquarium Pharm and Salifert test kits. Calcium is steadily maintained via a Kalk drip at 400 PPM.
<What of Magnesium?>
PH is at 8.2 and KH is 8. Water changes are done every week with 5 gallons of mixed saltwater from my LFS. Top offs are done with buffered RODI water.
OK is that a little info?
<Summat; and sounds/reads as a very nice system; showing evidence of keen, clear understanding on your part>
This system has been setup, as stated above, for several months. Started this tank in January using substrate, rocks, water and filter media from a well matured system. Everything seemed great but out of nowhere I started losing coral. I did have a Cyano breakout but syphoning it out and redirecting the powerheads seemed to fix that. Also had an aiptasia problem that I have been rectifying with Aiptasia X, Blue Line, and Joe's Juice. All seem effective but sure is no cure. Guess I am going to have to drop a couple hundred bucks for Berghia.
<Mmm, I wouldn't. Keep using the Aiptasia X...>
A pumping xenia melted away after it started to attach and grow. My colt coral, which once was about 8" has shriveled to a 1" tight mass. Polyps are melting away like crazy and are not opening as much. Also in the tank are a toadstool leather, a Fiji ruffled ridge leather, a small frogspawn frag, a trumpet frag, some other pink looking leather (I have no idea what it is). A brain Favites which is large and doing splendidly. Also a button coral. Purple ribbon gorgonian and a red tree sponge. All these are doing fabulous.
<Interesting... to the winners, the spoils; or at least in this case, the whole 55 gal. sys.>
There are also some very small Birdsnest frags that are doing fine. Sorry to list so much but I do not want to leave an essential piece of the puzzle out. I have tried everything that I felt was not too drastic. Changed carbon brands, readjusted the skimmer, reaquascaped and adjusted the powerheads, moved the coral everywhere I could. Thinking I am having some kind of warfare here.
<Yes, or more likely-important, a contest for available nutrients... The winners are better at scrounging what little nitrate and likely phosphate (among other chemical species) than the "losers" here>
Perhaps one of the healthy corals is attacking the colt and the slime from the colt is affecting the polyps.
<Could be>
I am thinking that I will remove the colt from the system but I am not sure that is the best thing to do for it or my system as a whole. It concerns me when my system is healthy enough to support sponges but cannot grow polyps. I am lost. Not sure if it will help but I started a thread on my aquarium on the local reef clubs site.
http://www.cvreefers.org/showthread.php?t=13906 Perhaps it contains something I forgot. Other than the gorgonian having been moved, by mouth of the clownfish, it pretty much looks exactly like that.
Thanks for taking the time to read this. I really appreciate it.
John A. Davis
<Mmm, how to put this best? Well, all might be solved if/when you have a larger system... Or if you used ozone, had a decent RedOx value (which assuredly you don't)... and all that it implies. You could spend a good deal of time, effort (when your wife is out doing other things than being home!) reading on the Net re the needs of the disparate life you're trying to keep here... You could do as you suggest and remove the more likely culprits one at a time... You could try augmenting your water mineral and food wise... Check the ratio of Mg:Ca, do what you can to boost to some measurable concentration at least HPO4 and NO3... add a larger refugium with a DSB, RDP lighting, macro-algae of use... and Ozone generator with some way of measuring ORP.... But if you're "fine" with how things are progressing, I'd let all go as it is.
What do you want to do? Bob Fenner>

Help with troubleshooting die-off  11/14/09
Hi guys,
<Riley>
I need some help in trying to troubleshoot an ongoing die-off event. I've read through your FAQs and articles but am still at a loss on isolating the problem(s) and saving our remaining livestock.
We've been keeping marine aquariums for about 5 years and over that period only lost 2 fish (due to old age we think) until this event. For the past 3 years we've had a 180 gallon reef tank with about 100 lbs live rock and 200 lbs deep sand bed. Fish: 1 dragon-wrasse, 1 maroon clown, 1 yellow tang, 1 coral beauty angel, 2 Banggai cardinals. We also had 1 small frogspawn coral fragment and about 10 BTAs (clones from 2 originals). No new livestock have been added to this tank in over 2 years.
<Good info.>
About a month ago we experienced several systems failures in quick succession which stressed the tank. The chiller failed (temps were unstable/high for several days until we repaired it). Additionally we had a pH spike while restoring our Kalkreactor which had been down for awhile.
Around the same time our RO system clogged so we replaced the sediment & carbon filters and RO membrane. These events seemed to precipitate the following. First, we experienced an algae bloom (lots of green, probably hair algae). It started covering the liverock and coral. Then, we noticed what appeared to be ich symptoms with our clownfish (swimming at the surface, covered with a coating of white mucous, etc). We immediately removed her from the main tank, put her in QT and started a 2 wk hyposalinity treatment (1.010 specific gravity) to which she seemed to respond favorably. We opted for hyposalinity rather than formalin over fears of toxicity.
<A reasonable concern>
Parameter checks in the
main tank at this point included pH, nitrate, phosphate, ammonia, nitrite, dKH, calcium, and magnesium. All parameters were normal except nitrate which was around 30ppm (has always been that high or higher in this tank).
And we had a slight imbalance in ca/mg.
Then about 10 days ago, we found the yellow tang dead on the bottom of the tank. There was no sign of ich symptoms. We executed a series of 30% water changes and got 3 other QT tanks running (against the chance we'd need to extract the other fish). Three days later we found the coral beauty dead in the same spot in the tank. Again, no visible symptoms either before or after death. At this point we moved the remaining fish from the main tank to the QT tanks and started gradually decreasing salinity in the QTs until over several days we reached the current 1.010 specific gravity in the QTs (3 days ago). Meanwhile I continued large water changes on the main tank and ran additional tests including for copper (wondering about metal poisoning), dissolved O2, and silicates. I was concerned the RO system incident and rework had led to contamination in our source water (the main tank has an auto-top off from the RO system). Silicates were normal.
Dissolved O2 was inconclusive (bad test kit). There was a detectable amount of copper (about 0.1 ppm)
<High! Am surprised your Cnidarians weren't showing signs...>
so we installed a Polyfilter in the sump.
<Did this show any blue, bluish green colour?>
Also added 2 lbs of carbon filter. After a few days the copper was undetectable. I checked the RO water in the QT tanks and could not find signs of copper. I completely replaced the old RO system with a new RO+DI system last week in an effort to isolate this. Am doing daily water changes (25-80%) on the QT tanks to manage ammonia. Did a 50% H2O change on the main tank a few days ago. Despite all this the inverts in the main tank look bad (BTAs and frogspawn are always shriveled).
<Not good>
I fear we're about to lose another fish (one of the Banggai cardinals).
She's laying on the QT bottom and/or swimming head down. Looks like swim bladder trouble. Don't see any visible signs of ich, etc. Other fish seem to be okay but main tank (now inverts only) still looks bad.
It feels like we're missing something basic but can't seem to find the problem. Plan right now is to let the main tank remain fallow for 30 days (complete Nov 30) before returning the fish from QT. Am worried we didn't move aggressively enough (if this indeed is ick) but also concerned about continuing to make changes vs. letting things stabilize.
Should we try more aggressive treatments in the QTs (formalin)? Are there other tests we should be running?
<I would not try medicating, nor hyposalinity really. I fully suspect the issue here is some sort of endogenous/biological poisoning in your main display. Not parasitic or infectious disease at all>
I fear if we don't figure out the root cause we could lose everything. Any ideas welcome. Thanks,
Riley
<There's either some sort of microbial "wipe out syndrome" or stress-effect result on your Euphylliids and anemones that has changed your water/system to unsupportive. You can "re-center" the system by continuing to use chemical filtrants, spiffing up your skimmer, adding some new/er live rock... But I would take a look at an important measure of system viability here: RedOx, and possibly add an ozonizer to your standard list of gear. Do take the longer read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
the second tray down, under the orange banner: Toxic Situations
And we'll be chatting. Bob Fenner>

Re: help with troubleshooting die-off  11/15/09
Bob, thanks much for the responses. Am running out of tricks and greatly appreciate your help. We've been fans for years. You guys are a critical resource. I will read the recommended link on toxicity. In the meantime, updates....
I. QT tanks & fish
The surviving fish are in 3 QT tanks as follows. Tank-A: maroon clownfish (3wks), Tank-B: dragon wrasse (2wks), Tank-C: two Banggai cardinals (2 wks). The clownfish (who showed first symptoms of distress -- white mucous covering and surface swimming) was subjected to hyposalinity and no meds for 2 weeks (down to 1.010 sp-gr) - is now back to normal salinity. She looks great (good color, energy, appetite). Because of her symptoms and treatment response we (probably incorrectly) suspected parasite infection from suppressed immune system so (a week late) got the surviving fish out of the main tank and into hyposalinity QT. In tank B the dragon wrasse shows no external signs of disease but is spending more time laying around than usual - would like to think he's just bored being in a small tank with no rocks to throw (he's rather smart) but am wary. He shows no signs of breathing distress (normal rate for him), remains gregarious and his usual voracious wrasse appetite. Tank-C inhabitants (cardinals) are suffering.
The male is carrying a brood (actually hatched one last night) and looks good all things considered. The female is hovering at death's doorstep.
Over a period of a few days she developed what appears to be a severe bacterial infection (fins wasting, discolorations and wasting on body, and white feces streamer). Her swim bladder seems damaged (went from swimming head down to laying on the bottom). She's still breathing and will swim away if approached but has stopped eating. Some of her discolorations look like gold velvet so in response to these symptoms (and the clown's) I diagnosed Amyloodinium and started treating Tank-B and -C with CopperSafe and antibiotics (erythromycin/Maracyn in QT water). Both tank-B and -C are currently at about 1.012 sp-gr and I was planning to maintain that with the meds for 2 weeks unless you recommend backing off on all or some of this.
<I really don't think the hypo is going to help; and the copper exposure may well cause more harm than good.>
If the sick cardinal continues to suffer I will consider euthanasia and in any event will do a post-mortem (microscope view of skin sample) to look for parasites. Will discontinue the copper and/or slowly return them to normal salinity levels if you think it's more risk than benefit at this point. Getting an accurate reading on copper (both with total and free copper kits) is difficult so I'm currently at the mercy of the CopperSafe dosing instructions.
My daily QT protocol is to measure ammonia, feed all fish, watch their response, perform 25-80% water changes, and add meds (again nothing for tank-A at this point). Am also aerating vigorously. My plan has been to keep the fish in QT (after the above treatment completes) until a full month has elapsed (allow time for any parasites to complete life-cycle in the main tank) and/or the main tank health has stabilized based on response of inverts.
<Again... would like to have you confirm (microscopic examination of body slime) parasitic presence>
Biggest concern at this point is not losing more fish. We've had the dragon wrasse about 7 years and know they live longer. I'm prepared to sacrifice the remaining main tank inverts to save him (change to FOWLR) but am frankly anxious to get him back there as soon as its safe (really tricky/risky maintaining a big fish in a 20 gallon QT tank for an extended period). So any major reconfig on the main tank that delays returning the fish is a concern.
II. Main reef tank
I just ordered yesterday a 2nd (200 gal capacity) skimmer to augment our existing skimmer as well as an ORP probe for our Neptune controller. Was planning to dig into Redox next as you suggest. I'll look into the ozonizer option.
<A good piece of gear for larger, more valuable (emotionally, economically) collections>
As for tank status, after 2 weeks the poly-filter (in sump) shows no signs of blue-green (copper) color and test kits (API and Instant Ocean) show no measurable copper so I'm wondering if the source water (old RO system, since replaced with new RO-DI rig) might have been the culprit.
<Mmm, possibly... I'd be checking the checker/test kit as well>
The surviving inverts appear to be in limbo (not getting worse but not getting better either). BTAs are "cautiously open". I remain concerned at persistently low pH (hovering around 7.9) despite the frequent water changes and infusion of new aragonite sand last month.
<Buffer the new/make-up water. Use SeaChem's fine line>
I've had the Kalkwasser drip off for about a month now.
<Mmmm, see WWM. Am not a big fan of in general>
Will try to manually bump up the pH slowly using buffer up while I'm trying to sort out the chemistry but again, it feels like something basic is out of whack. Algae remains a problem but nitrates are slowly dropping (down to 20ppm today). Am periodically checking ammonia and nitrites to ensure the system isn't cycling. I am concerned about an as-yet mysterious water quality problem affecting things at a microbial level.
<Yes... mysterious>
Thanks again,
Riley
<Thank you for this report, sharing. BobF>

Toxic Water Conditions - Can't Figure out what is wrong to fix.  10/5/09
Hi WetWebMedia Crew,
<Hey Thai! JustinN here, out of retirement to help you out! :)>
I have had a bit of an issue of late over the water quality of my tank and cannot seem to work out what is wrong, hence have done nothing except water changes to keep water quality high.
<Sounds reasonable, lets see what we can do!>
My stats are as follow: Ammonia 0 Nitrite 0 Nitrate 10 Ph 8.1 and Salinity is 1.022.
<Looks good so far.>
It is a 375 gallon and understocked in my opinion. Tank consists of 1 yellow tang, 9 yellow tank fusiliers at about 3-4 inches, 3 green chromis and a niger trigger at about 2 inches.
<I would agree with this assertion, sparsely populated given the great volume of water available.>
The issue is that I've notice the fusilier tails have gone black in some places and darker than it's usual bright yellow. 1 fusilier has cloudy eye, 1 has pop eye as well and they seem to be burning as I notice small red
patches on a few of them.
<Sounds like a higher potential case of aggression here, considering your previous readings, assuming their accuracy..>
The Yellow tang is fine, flicks around a bit and has been doing it for the last week. No visible signs of disease and his body is absolutely perfect apart from some minor damage due to the flicking.
<Relatively typical of the species -- though is often a precursor to further parasitic issues.>
The trigger and chromis are normal. I have added carbon in the past week to try to remove any toxic metals and am using Seachem. I also have Seachem's Cupri ion metal removal and am planning to add that to the sump as well.
<Have you previously treated with a metal solution/chemical 'cure-all' that would merit this? These products are not something I would consider a detriment to add occasionally, but unless you have introduced the metals, this is an unwarranted worry.>
I'm feeding the fish new life spectrum pellets and Nori.
<A fine meal for most the species -- though I do recommend something more meaty for your trigger. He'll love you for it!>
I use tap water and Red Sea Salt mix for water changes. I also have a 67 gallon tank ready to go and can use my Eheim 2217 which I have been running in on the new tank for bacteria.
<If there becomes a directly diagnosable issue here, I'd recommend using this set up as your quarantine/medical administration tank. No sense in disturbing your large display if its not needed.>
The media was thoroughly cleaned before I hooked it up. Please advise or direct me to the right links as I been reading all day but can't find anything similar to what I am experience. Feel free to ask if I'm missing
any details. Any help or ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in anticipation
<My only remaining thoughts at this point still point to in-tank aggression. Yellow tangs have an occasional penchant for being bully-ish, and triggers most typically are aggressive. I'd keep an eye on the day-to-day activities of your livestock, perhaps a pattern of aggression may emerge.. -JustinN>
Thai Pham

Reef problems  9/17/09
Good Evening,
I am hoping you can shed some light on the situation I am going through.
Let's just say it's been a tough go on the reef. First my Wrasse took a floor dive and then my Blenny got stung by a bristleworm and eventually gave way to what I believe was an infection that became serious. Well anyways my tank has been running for 5 years. In the last 3 months or so my leather corals have been shrinking in size and not fully extending their polyps.
<Mmm>
At first I just thought this was shedding but they still have not shed and continue to shrink on a daily basis. There is no die off and am not sure what is going on.
<Something, someone bothering>
I also had a very large Pocillopora colony which bleached from the bottom only leaving the tips alive. About 5 months ago I switched my lights from Ushio 10k bulbs to the AirWaterIce 12k bulbs. I do not know if this is the cause but I know the PAR can be less with the higher temperature halides.
Do you think this is possible?
<Is possible>
The bulbs were running for a few months before this started so I am kind of reluctant to pin it on this and spend the money on new bulbs. I have tired increasing the flow in my tank by adding another Koralia 1 thinking it was a flow problem. Still no improvement. I now have 4 in my tank in each corner along with my mag 12 on the return (90 Gallon). Allelopathy can also be an issue, I suppose,
<Yes>
but I do bi-weekly water changes, skim heavy, and use carbon.
<Still...>
My parameters all check out as well, PH- 8.3, DKH - 9, Cal- 375, SG - 35ppt.
<Mg?>
I know the calcium is a little low but my tank seems to saturate calcium at a high rate. I am sure this is related to my magnesium levels as I use instant ocean salt,
<Has proven an inconsistent product in recent years... I'd test each mix/bag>
but wouldn't think this is the problem. Do you have any ideas what I can look for?
<All sorts>
Should I try moving things around? Change the bulbs? Add a couple triggers and groupers and call it quits?
<None of these. Please read: http://wetwebmedia.com/cniddisfaqs.htm
and the linked files above... Bob Fenner>
Thanks, Eric

I Can't Keep a Fish Alive SW Systems Fish health and Likely Toxic Water Possible Ich\Crypt\Inappropriate stocking Reading, lots of reading.9/2/2009 Dear WWM <Hi Jenaraye> 6 months ago I decided to buy my 6 yr old daughter her first fish and that's when I became "hooked". <welcome to the hobby.> I ended up with my first fish tank and my first saltwater experience. A 55 gallon tank, a BakPak2R+ skimmer, Emperor 400, 2 power heads, Live Rock 80lbs & my test kits show my Nitrates 0, nitrites 0,(or)0.25 ammonia, 0, <Big problem right there. Nitrites need to be zero and remain zero. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/toxictk.htm > High PH 8.0 <pH is a bit low. 8.2 - 8.4 is preferred.> Phosphate 0.0 (or) 0.25 Salt Gravity 1.022. I feed mysis Shrimp, blood worms, awexotics flakes (a food made locally here in town where I live) it has kelp-Spirulina-color with garlic...made from fresh kelp direct from Alaska high in added Spirulina high in omega 3 and omega 6 fatty acids garlic added for parasite control industry leading color enhancer, zero nitrates and extremely low ash and phosphorous. <Other than the nitrite and pH, that sounds fine.> I'm afraid however, I've just about given up already. Fish die in my care and some within a day or two. <Not good..> I haven't been able to keep one fish going for longer than 2 or 3 weeks. <Something is seriously amiss.> I'm afraid to go back to my fish stores for fear that they won't sell me another fish I'm so embarrassed. They're probably keeping track of how many I've bought so as to make sure I'm not over stocking my tank. <Not likely.> I don't have the courage to tell them that the ones before have all died. I have to drive out of my area just to find other new fish. I feel so bad. Right before a fish would die I'd notice white spots looking like sand that showed up after it was being harassed by another fish. <Ahh, Marine Ich Have a read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm and here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm > After it stressed from all of the chasing the white spots would show. I was told that these spots were signs of stress and fish die from stress and exhaustion. <Not even close. You have been given incorrect information.> A local shop sold me live rock that had just come in from Fiji. I think they might have been in too much of a hurry to sell it however because it wasn't cured all of the way before they sold it. I didn't realize that. <uh oh.> My fish started to die and I just thought it was bad luck or bad choice of combination on my ignorant part (again) so I kept reading up on things until the wee hours of the night researching information and selecting what I thought were the right fish but they all died too. Finally another fish store owner, after hearing my sad pathetic story about my tank said that it was the live rock wiping out my tank and killing off my fish. <If the live rock was still cycling, yes it was - it was giving off ammonia and nitrite.> A store sold me two maroon clowns and bagged them together and when I got them home one of the clown fish had fins that were chewed up and shredded! <Not at all surprising. Maroon Clowns are very aggressive.> They must have fought the whole 5 minuets it took me to get home! <Likely so.> They didn't last in my tank either. I put a cardinal in my tank and one survived and the other died the second it hit the water. <You need to read about Quarantine and Dipping procedures. It keeps diseases like ich out of your tank Read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/QuarMarFishes.htm and here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/dips_baths.htm > I don't understand that. Seems I either buy fish that don't mesh with each other and they fight to the death or fish that just don't make it. <You need to stop adding fish.> I would like more than just 4 fish in this tank. Perhaps freshwater fish that are small would be a better choice to give me a tank filled with beautiful fish to watch rather than 4 or 5 fish. I haven't met any beautiful freshwater fish though. <There are several, but that is for another letter. :) > I had a coral beauty and I bought a Bicolor Pygmy Angel and they both died with in 24 hours. The coral beauty lived 2 days but when I put the angel in the next day they were both lying dead next to each other. <A very bad idea to put two dwarf angels together in the same tank. Read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/centropyge/ > Now I've been reading about quarantine tanks and Dips and although I don't know why these fish died I do think that I would have been able to prevent some possibilities by understanding the importance of both of these. <yes.> The store I bought my present fish from checked a few fish books behind the counter while I stood there and told me I'd be "just fine" with my 55 gallon tank when they sold me the following: 1-Panther Grouper, 1- Lunar Wrasse, 1-Porcupine Puffer and 3 Blue Green Chromis. <Nyet, Nein, Non, No, no, a thousand times no.> Well I can now tell you that I won't be "just fine" and neither will these fish. <Exactly.> I'm going to have to donate these fish to another store or a zoo!. The Wrasse probably won't live longer than 3 months in captivity and the Panther will out grow my tank faster than my 6 year old daughter outgrows her shoes. The Chromis fish look okay and the Puffer, well his face is about as pathetic looking as mine. Cute but a sad and sorry face. :-) <The puffer will not do well in a 55 either. will get too big and obnoxious.> It's odd, at first I was embarrassed to go back to the stores because so many of the fish had died in my care. I didn't want to show my face I felt so sad and ashamed. But now, I'm not so sure that the stores are all that "concerned" about the "fish" after all? <Some do, many do not.> I had a goby but I couldn't find it. I lost it, can you believe that. I am so bad I actually lost a fish in my own tank! In a rock somewhere I think. I took out the live rock to move it around and the goby was gone. It finally showed up dead lying in the sand. I'm pathetic I tell you. <You are learning - the hard and expensive way, but yo are learning.> I've been up to 3:00 am night after night reading your website and trying to learn everything. Saltwater fish might be to delicate and expensive for a rookie like me. <No, you just need to learn.> Maybe I'll do better with freshwater fish. Maybe it doesn't matter what kind of fish I pick. My question for you at this point is, I'm wondering if perhaps it's not about the kind of fish but more about something else that makes this a successful experience. Is that possibly true? <Rule #1 NOTHING good ever happens quickly in a saltwater tank.> All this work on my tank and testing equipment and filters and such makes me want to ask, is having a successful aquarium a constant ongoing delicate balance between water conditions, food types, species and knowledge or is having a successful aquarium a delicate balance no matter what, simply because we're trying to keep this species in captivity? <It is a delicate balance always. When properly set up, it isn't difficult. Do have a read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/setup/marsetupindex1.htm > For me, I haven't gotten off to a very successful start. <But we can always learn and correct our mistakes.> Best Regards, <My pleasure, do write back if you have other questions.> Jenaraye <MikeV> Re: I Can't Keep a Fish Alive QT, Ich Attack use. 9\5\2009 Thank you for your response and information, links and time. <My pleasure.> I read the information you offered and more. In the meantime the Chromis died and at first it looked like they might have been crushed by rock but I thought it was too odd and coincidental to happen to both. <yes.> Then the 3rd one showed signs of injury or fungus on his back. Suddenly my nitrites went from 0 to .25 and I noticed the puffer had the white spots looking like sand all over the eyes and fins. <It seems as if your tank is going through a series of mini cycles.> I took a photo of both the puffer and the panther. (attached) You can't see anything on the panther because he's so white himself, but he takes a nice photo nonetheless) As for the wrasse well, he's hard to photograph but he does like to lie beside the Panther for some odd reason so I might get my chance. I bought the "Ich Attack" <Not the best choice for medicine. I would go so far as to say it is useless . Copper or Quinine are the only methods that really work.> and took out the filters that you normally use when you run the Emperor 400. (These have carbon in them I assume tucked in behind the blue filter material so I'm assuming the filter must be run without these and with water only) and I left the skimmer on and put the Ich Attack in the tank. <Oops...> But then I realized that I had read that this would not do any good because of my live rock. Not only would my live rock render it useless but my live rock might no longer be any good either after doing this. I went back to my reading and went out to the store and purchased a 10 gallon tank as it was late at night. I set up the tank and placed the Wrasse the Panther and the Puffer in the tank after I had checked the water levels and salt levels and made sure all was at the 0 level and salt was at 1.022 and High PH 8.4. <Very good recovery on the mistake.> The Puffer didn't make it however as of today. <Sorry to hear this.> The Wrasse and Panther are still in the QT. Meanwhile in my 55 gallon I took the opportunity to vacuumed the sand (another thing I'm not quite sure the best way to do). <Not so different from doing it in a FW tank.> When you say leave the tank "fallow" do you mean leave everything turned off for days and let the water sit until it is time to return the fish back to the tank and this will help kill the ich in the tank as well? <Leave the filtration system running, but with no fish for 4 weeks.> When should I change the water in the main tank to flush out the Ich Attack that I put into the main tank that got all over my live rock? <Since you used Ich Attack, I would not worry too much. It will filter out - just do your normal water changes.> I'm on my way now back to read up on how long to leave them in the QT and levels for acclimating them back into the main tank. <Very good.> Currently in the QT tank the levels are Nitrates 0, Nitrites 0, Ammonia 0 High PH 8.5 and Salinity 1.019 and the temp is 81 degrees F. <All good.> If these two fish don't make it I might not keep this tank as a saltwater tank but turn it into a freshwater tank and start again from the beginning. <It is easy to get frustrated. Just go a bit slower.> I'm having success with my 10 gallon and 29 gallon freshwater tanks here at home for some reason and haven't replaced any fish and I tend to them weekly. I must have stocked them right. Either way, I enjoy taking care of the tanks and their water and find it therapeutic to test and change the water once a week and sometimes more just for the fun of it, I admit :-) <Enjoy the hobby .> Thanks again. <MikeV>

Re: Attn: Bob Fenner...... Reef trouble... hlth. diag. 9/1/2009
Bob,
<GC>
Hey! As always thanks so much for getting back to me. I just found out that the snails I purchased are indeed wild caught.
So yes Im suspecting that's were this had to have started. Cause everything was fine before this. With the exception of a 5 inch Monti cap that I added a few weeks ago. Nothing else was added until the snails. Before these snails everything was fine.
<Mmm>
Last night I did a 3 to 4 min freshwater dip on both clowns. They seem to be doing a lot better. I took a flashlight and shined it in the dipping bucket and I could see what look to be white spots floating on the bottom..flukes?
<Maybe>
But also there was small dark specks to..which if im not wrong is black ich. Is this correct?
<Not likely, no>
But Im mainly worried about my Orchid Dottyback. He wont come out of his cave...and I shined a light in there to see if he was still alive, which he is, but he's not looking too good. He would have to pick a cave that's in the largest rock in my tank. I think I will try to get him out today and give him a freshwater dip with methyblue. I have the hospital tank up and running. I have Seachem Paraguard, is this a good medication for the hospital tank?
<Yes>
I also thought about moving the clowns in there, until they start eating again.
I will do a large water change today. Should I take all of those wild caught snails out?
<I would>
Please let me know..and thanks!!!
<Welcome. BobF>

Re: Attn: Bob Fenner... ****Update***... Reef trouble... hlth. diag.   9/2/09
Bob,
Just thought I would update. I finally got the Orchid Dottyback out of his cave and I gave him a 5 min freshwater dip with methyblue. I then put him in the hospital tank...where he fell to the bottom, breathed very heavy for about a min and then died. I had the parameters on the hospital tank almost an exact match to the main tank. Im just not sure if he was just too far gone or if he went into shock or both?
<... both>
Both my clowns were still looking lethargic , so I then decided to move them both to the hospital tank.
<Good>
The male is right
side up and seems like he's doing ok, the female is laying on her side a lot and seems to have trouble staying right side up. She will swim for a second and then lay on the bottom. What would cause her not be able to stay right side up?
<... don't know. Stress likely>
I dosed with Paraguard and then again today. It has been 4 days since they last ate. I will soak a tiny bit of food in garlic and see if they will take any tonight. Is this normal for them to lose interest in food?
<Please read on WWM re Amphiprionines>
and will they start eating again at some point, hopefully if they start to get better.. Also is the methyblue
better just for dips, or can I use it for the hospital tank too? or is it better to just stick with Paraguard for the hospital tank?
<I'd stick with the SeaChem product solo>
My bristle tooth tang, Banggai cardinal, yellow tail damsel seem unaffected.
I did a water change last night and then again today.
I will continue doing water changes for the next couple of days. I took all the wild caught snails out of the tank. So If the snails did bring pathogens into the tank what would be my next course of action?
<Wait and hope>
Before this mess, I actually was getting ready to move everything into a bigger tank in about 3 or 4 weeks. I wanted to use the 50 gals of water from this tank too when I do the change over.
Would it be ok, or should i totally discard this water and start all over when I change tanks?
Thanks Bob!!!!!!
<I'd start all over. B>

Possible Oxygen Issues? (Maybe…but I don’t think so) – 08/04/09
Hey guys, Jen again,
<<Howdy Jen again>>
Bob commented on a complete and total loss I had with a reef tank about 4 weeks ago.
<<Ouch>>
It’s been about 7 weeks since the crash and since then I've did a major overhaul in the tank.
<<Ah yes…and a prime opportunity to makes changes/upgrades>>
I can only assume that I lost most of the beneficial bacteria, so I changed most of the water over the first 3 weeks, stirred sand, replaced media, added a custom carbon canister (about 10lbs of carbon)
<<You haven’t stated the size of this system but I imagine this is much more than what is needed here…and maybe even enough to be “too aggressive” for the system. Not to mention the expense of changing out this much carbon on a two-three week basis…really, any longer than that and this becomes a huge detritus sink. I am a fan/user myself of carbon on a continual basis as a useful adjunct to your filtration system, but in smaller quantities (1/2lb – 1lb), and changed-out frequently (every 2-3 weeks)>>
to try and combat maybe some kind of toxin,
<<Was this identified as the cause of the loss? Or maybe just an assumption of an accumulation re>>
and then added more live rock. In the weeks and weeks after all the work I've watched the tank cycle and now I'm back down to acceptable levels - no ammonia, no nitrite, almost undetectable nitrate levels.
<<Mmm, this tank is still cycling then…all should be “zero”>>
pH was a problem initially, I assume of the addition of so much carbon,
<<Possibly>>
but now has been buffered and has been stabilized for the past 3 weeks.
<<Likely because the carbon is now “exhausted”>>
So onto the question. I purchased a damsel to help cycle the tank
<<There’s no real practical reason for such “live” cycling of a system. Much better, and just as useful, to simply add a bit of flake/pelleted food to the tank every couple of days until the Nitrogen cycle is completed>>
(yes will return the little guy later on - he's not a keeper)
<<If it survives…>>
and acclimated him using the drip method. I lost him in less than 3 hours.
<<Indeed>>
Extremely heavy frantic respiration. I tried again a few weeks later to the same result.
<<…!>>
My question is - could I possibly have extremely low DO levels because of the crash and then subsequent die off?
<<Not for this reason alone…not with the time that’s passed, the water changes, good water movement (a skimmer?)… I suspect your test kits may not be accurate (time to “test the testers”) and you still have toxic levels of Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate>>
Could this have pushed my system extremely anaerobic and that the cause of the loss so quickly after acclimation?
<<Again, with all that has passed I think this is unlikely. Even had this been the case right after the tank crash…once “cleaned up” as you have done, and with the return of water motion, the system would very quickly return to its “aerobic” state>>
Also could the carbon be taking out dissolved oxygen as well?
<<I’ve been pondering that myself, but only because of the “amount” of carbon you are utilizing. There does seem to be some thought that carbon can be used to remove dissolved oxygen…as in a special filter utilizing activated carbon fiber to remove DO to reduce corrosion in steam generators…but this looks to require special adjuncts to the process (other added reducers/chemicals/application processes), and is not simply the addition of a measure of activated carbon. I in no way want to discourage the use of activated carbon as a chemical filtrant for the home aquarium, but like anything else, I suppose it can be overdone. With that in mind, I would reduce the amount of carbon in the canister filter to a pound or less...and add a couple cut-up Poly-Filters in place of the bulk of the carbon for increased/improved chemical filtration…or even replace the carbon with the Poly-Filter, altogether>>
Everything with the tank tests well and I cannot figure out why else I would have this loss.
<<Do be sure the test kits are good/fresh>>
We've even went so far as to test random occurrences like electrical current to make sure there is no other problems here. I do not want to put any more fish at risk here and really cannot figure out another issue...so could this be a possibility?
<<Maybe… Reduce the amount of carbon and see. But please, don’t add any more fish until you’ve determined the efficacy of your test kits, and ALL Nitrogenous compound readings are at “zero”>>
If so, I've already added an airstone in the sump and I have plenty of water movement and disturbance at the top.....
<<Then I do think it “is not” a reduced DO issue, though I still think you don’t need that much/should reduce the amount of carbon utilized. Look to other causes for poisoning of the system here, as mentioned>>
Thanks for the insight!
Jen
<<Happy to assist… EricR>>

sudden death of certain fish in tank... SW dis. reading  7/21/2009
hello, i have a possible problem.
<I see them... Grammatical... Beginnings of sentences are capitalized, as is the personal pronoun "I"....>
setup is 100 gal, fish and rock only. live sand, with canister filter.
<... insufficient>
ph is 1.023-1.024, no ammonia, nitrates or nitrites. Ph has been around 8.0-8.2 since initial cycle.
tank has only been up for 4months. stocking consists of Foxface rabbit, yellow tang, blue regal tang, single long-fin Bannerfish, two clown fish, three assorted damsels, crabs and cleaner shrimp.
Here's the problem, noticed two days ago on Bannerfish small white fungus on very end of fin,
<Pic please>
LFS said just to pluck them off, just a fungus growth. did that and fish seemed okay, all fish ate today and
were normal selfs,except the Bannerfish. he was hanging around the bottom, breathing labored, and just not swimming like normal. came back six hours later, and Bannerfish, yellow tang, and Rabbitfish all dead in corner of tank.
<... A common trait amongst these? Oxygen need... high DO>
All the other fish seem okay, acting normal, swimming, and being their normal selfs.
<... selves>
Moved blue tang to Q-tank just in case, and taking water sample to LFS for further testing. retest on
water at home showed ph=8.2, no nitrates or nitrites, no ammonia present.SG is at 1.023. I was unsure if the dying Bannerfish could have killed them all, or if the problem lies elsewhere??? thanks for your answer, and love the wet web.....Jason
<Use it then: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
Bob Fenner>

Frenetic Fishkeeping - 7/16/09
HI,
<HELLO>
I have a 180 Gallon established fish tank. I found my yellow tang dead and the other fish not eating and breathing heavily. They were all fine when I went to bed and in the morning they were not. I checked all levels in the
tank and even went to my LFS to have them check the water, and all levels are spot on.
<I find it hard to believe an LFS could do better testing than an individual... and what does "spot on" mean?>
We did a 25% water change at the suggestion of the LFS. I am at a loss as are they as to what is going on. I am so upset of losing my fish had him for three years, also I have my other fish for over 4 years never a problem with them. Any suggestions as to what else I can do or what may be the problem.
<Take a deep breath, and check your pH, nitrite, and ammonia. This sounds like a chemical problem. Could something have been spilled in the aquarium? Use any new chemical products by the tank?>
I see no signs of illness on them they look clean on their gills, I am very stressed out watching them breathe like that. Should I leave the tank light off for them does this calm them down?
<No. Maintain normalcy.>
And one last question, is it possible for the other fish to stress out over the one that died since they were tank mates, I know that sounds crazy, but they were all hanging around the tang, they did not even move when I was taking her out of the tank?
<No, these creatures do not form these sort of anthropomorphous relationships>
Thanks for your Help!
<Deb, I'd redo those water tests, and keep an eye on the rate of respiration of the fish. It sounds like some sort of poisoning, for now I would recommend adding some carbon in case there is a foreign chemical at work here, and continuing water changes until the fish clear up.>
DEB
<Benjamin>

Re: Devastating Tank Loss: Overstocked tank crash. Nothing really to refer. 7/13/2009 <Hi Melissa, sorry for the delay in writing back, I've been in Montreal for the last week or so.> I am writing back to give an update because we have had a small miracle. <Oh?!> Our TR clown has pulled through. His recovery from being on his side and gasping the entire day after the equipment disaster, to swimming around this morning has been a wonderful surprise. <Excellent News.> I haven't yet seen a fish come back from this. When he was on his side we thought him gone and were going to scoop him out but he swam away and kept at it, something about him gave me hope even though I really know better. He was very healthy and fat before the rescue operation, I suppose this aided in his ultimate survival. <Indeed.> I did a huge water change 40%; the ammonia & ph are 0, nitrates cut down by half at 0 and nitrites 0. As of this morning, all corals (2 torch, a frogspawn and mushroom are open and looking good so far). Also I grabbed a bit of water last time I was in the LFS and tested it when I got home, I was amazed at the PH levels being off my charts; is this normal? Everything else tested at 0's. <Depends on how they make up their water.> As an answer to your question the extra "emergency" fish were in our tank for close to three weeks, not even regular water changes kept the levels down. One other thing that you mentioned regarding how it would have been better to take the fish back to store, but we really don't have a store that will take them back. When I took out the chromis, I had no idea where to take them and stopped at a Petco where they surprised me by taking them as a donation. But years ago I had some fish that needed a home when my tank cracked and the local stores there wouldn't take them. <I can understand their position as well, as they do not want to potentially introduce disease to their tanks.> I finally found one even though they still gave me a very hard time. Had I known they would not come through and get their animals back I would have set something else up. Live and learn, at my animals expense! <Yes.> So I thank you for your time and again wanted to celebrate the survival of a very tough TR clown. Now I have the levels back to safe levels, got the spg up to 1.024 (the spg is hard to keep up in this system, funny as years ago we had 100 gal+ tanks and we had to add fresh water to keep this down) and eventually get a new cleaner shrimp or a pair and get back to enjoying our tank again. <Very good.> I also attached some photos of my torch coral as there is a large "something" on the side. It is hard like the base, but it separates from the base ever so slightly. I tried to show the side so this can be viewed, but wasn't very successful. I included the pics anyway. I would appreciate your comments/info. I tried to search but the general terms I used didn't locate anything similar and I didn't have any more descriptive terms. <Hmm... will refer to others more knowledgeable on corals.> Thank you M <MikeV>

Re: Devastating Tank Loss: Additional Crew follow-up: From MikeV 07/14/09 Crew, Can someone look at the two pictures of the Torch Coral I haven't seen anything like that before. Thanks MikeV <Am looking at right now Mike. My comments below. BobF> I am writing back to give an update because we have had a small miracle. Our TR clown has pulled through. His recovery from being on his side and gasping the entire day after the equipment disaster, to swimming around this morning has been a wonderful surprise. I haven't yet seen a fish come back from this. When he was on his side we thought him gone and were going to scoop him out but he swam away and kept at it, something about him gave me hope even though I really know better. He was very healthy and fat before the rescue operation, I suppose this aided in his ultimate survival. I did a huge water change 40%; the ammonia & ph are 0, nitrates cut down by half at 0 and nitrites 0. As of this morning, all corals (2 torch, a frogspawn and mushroom are open and looking good so far). Also I grabbed a bit of water last time I was in the LFS and tested it when I got home, I was amazed at the PH levels being off my charts; is this normal? Everything else tested at 0's. <Mmm, normal? Yes... marine systems that are "large, stable" enough, can/do recenter themselves... bio-, chem-, and physically> As an answer to your question the extra "emergency" fish were in our tank for close to three weeks, not even regular water changes kept the levels down. One other thing that you mentioned regarding how it would have been better to take the fish back to store, but we really don't have a store that will take them back. When I took out the chromis, I had no idea where to take them and stopped at a Petco where they surprised me by taking them as a donation. But years ago I had some fish that needed a home when my tank cracked and the local stores there wouldn't take them. I finally found one even though they still gave me a very hard time. Had I known they would not come through and get their animals back I would have set something else up. Live and learn, at my animals expense! So I thank you for your time and again wanted to celebrate the survival of a very tough TR clown. Now I have the levels back to safe levels, got the spg up to 1.024 (the spg is hard to keep up in this system, funny as years ago we had 100 gal+ tanks and we had to add fresh water to keep this down) and eventually get a new cleaner shrimp or a pair and get back to enjoying our tank again. I also attached some photos of my torch coral as there is a large "something" on the side. <The green, uniform area?> It is hard like the base, but it separates from the base ever so slightly. I tried to show the side so this can be viewed, but wasn't very successful. I included the pics anyway. I would appreciate your comments/info. I tried to search but the general terms I used didn't locate anything similar and I didn't have any more descriptive terms. Thank you M <I think this is likely an algal colony/growth... from opportunistic chances, ongoing changes, trauma in your system... I would not "treat it" in any way... Will likely cycle out in time on its own. Bob Fenner>