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Re: gray spots on
Orange Neon Cory 12/7/07
Hi, I have yet again another problem with my Corys.
<Oh?>
Last week my 30 gallon female Betta/ Cory tank experienced a bout of
something that was best described as Epistylis. I was in contact with
Neale and with his great advice and help I think we cleared that problem
up. All is well in that tank.
<Good-oh.>
Neale suggested as a general rule for all my tanks to do 50% WC per
week, which I have started doing. I was only doing 25%. I treated the
Betta/Cory tank with Jungle's Tank Buddies for Fungus and then after two
treatments of the Fungus meds, added Pima Fix for the Cory with healing
fins and barbels and I have noticed regrowth on both areas. Should I do
more Pima Fix and for how long? Something else?
<I'd keep using it until the fish are 100% healed. Pimafix is pretty
mild stuff and unlikely to cause any problems.>
I am also running a 55 gallon community tank with two dwarf Gouramis,
two gold gouramis, 1 blue three spot and 1 Opaline Gourami, 5 Schwartzi
Corys, 6 Orange Laser Corys, 7 scissor tail rasboras, 1 pair black
mollies, and a pair of orange platies.
<Ok.>
The tank has lots of live plants, Fluorite bottom about 3/4 deep, an HOB
filter and a sponge filer rated for 40 gallons. After I removed the
carbon, as suggested, I placed 3/4 cup of Zeolite in the HOB filter for
ammonia and left the coarse sponge like screens in for filtration,
OK?
<Zeolite is almost as useless as carbon. Zeolite removers ammonia.
Nothing else. That's all it does. If you have a biological filter that
is working properly, the Zeolite isn't adding anything useful to your
filtration system. It's just as waste of space and money. Zeolite is
primarily for tanks where biological filters can't be used, e.g., soft
water tanks at pH <6, or hospital tanks set up at a moment's notice.>
Water parameters are temp. 80-82 degrees, Ammonia 0, nitrate 0 and
nitrates 0. PH is about 7.2 before and around 7.5 right after WC.
<Ooh, a little on the warm side. Aim for 25C/77F. Corydoras especially
don't like overly warm water.>
Here's the problem. Two of the Orange Laser Corys have what look like
gray patches on their heads. The patches are not perfectly round, one
has a crescent shape patch and the other's is sort of oval. Both have a
lighter, as in color and thickness, patch near one gill. These appeared
after the 1st 50% WC, which I am careful about as regards to matching
water temps.
<Water changes shouldn't cause any problems if done properly. Water
temperature isn't really a factor, because Corydoras LOVE cool water
splashed into their tropical tanks. It's how you get them to spawn. But
you do need to check you're using a suitable dechlorinator, for example
one that removes chloramine if you live somewhere that chloramine is
used.>
The patches are not like fibers, about 1/4" in diameter, though
irregular. They are not moving, I'm sure not Velvet, certainly not Ich.
Do I have a fungus or a bacterial infection going on?
<Sounds like it. Treat with combination Finrot/Fungus since we don't
know if it's a bacteria or fungus at work here.>
I treated the tank with Jungle's Tank Buddies for Fungus as I did the
other tank since the color of the spots appeared, initially, the same as
with the other Corys in the 30 gallon tank, but the results were totally
different. The Orange Corys appeared to be responding to treatment, but
then the gray soft ( as in non reflective or velvety) appearance of the
spots seems to dissolve, for lack of a better way to explain it, and
then the spots or patches seem to be concave as if there was just a
wound left underneath. BTW, I treated twice, as per directions which
were four day treatments with 25% WC between applications. The spots
were concave after the first treatment, but no improvement and no change
in the lighter affected spots near the gills.
<Hmm...>
I am at a total loss as to what to do now at the end of the second
treatment. I have looked everywhere for an accurate picture of the
condition on the web and nothing seems to match exactly. It could be
sap, it could be columnaris, it could be?????? But, now it doesn't sound
like Epistylis!
<Could be Columnaris (a.k.a. "mouth fungus") but could be something
else, too. Use a combination Finrot/fungus medication and chances are
good it'll clear up, even if you don't know what the precise problem
is.>
I should mention that the tank also had something else going on in it
and the Jungle Buddies fungus cure worked in conjunction with medicated
food. The largest Blue 3 spot Gourami had two red spots, one near the
anal fin and one on the head. Hence the medicated food and they have now
healed. Bacterial infection due to poor water quality?
<Most probably.>
One of the Dwarf Gouramis had what looked like it might be the start of
a spot near it's mouth and that has also disappeared. More like an
abrasion, but never got red or raw, just scales that didn't look
"right".
<Quite possibly damage from fighting.>
None of the Schwartzi or other Orange Laser Corys have shown any signs
of the spots and all but one Orange Cory is still very active and
eating. No signs of fin or barbel damage in any of them, including the
two affected.
<Good. Treat and wait.>
I have been to three LFS and bought whatever I can lay my hands on,
Help! I think I've read so much on the web and your site that I'm now
paralyzed with indecision as to my next move!
<Combination Finrot/Fungus medication is the way to go.>
Thanks for any advice and especially this site. It is so informative and
the first place I go to now when I have any questions regarding fish,
aquariums, plants, you name it. It is the best out there.
Polly
<Glad we can help. Good luck, Neale.>
Re: gray spots on
Orange Neon Cory 12/07/2007
Hi Neale,
<Hello Polly,>
Sorry I didn't write back immediately. I did another 50% WC, instead of
the recommended 25% on the Jungle Fungus Tank Buddies and dosed the
entire 50 Gal tank again. This will be the third round of meds.
<Sheesh... that's a lot of medication. I'd be switching brands, if
that's an option for you. I've learned the hard way that sometimes one
medication works where another fails. Mostly this is with whitespot/ick,
but perhaps worth considering here.>
The spots on the two orange Corys are now whiter and a bit ragged
looking. One Cory is lethargic and the other is still active an eating.
None of the other Schwartzi or orange Corys are affected with any signs
of this condition.
<White stuff is usually dead tissue, whereas grey stuff is mucous. So
given this is white stuff, I'm guessing we have necrosis going on,
meaning that things are pretty bad. If this was me, I'd be thinking
about saltwater dips as a supplement. These are basically baths made
with aquarium water and 35 grammes of salt (any kind, really) per litre.
You dip the fish for a period of time, once per day. The idea is the
salty water cleans the wound and destroys the fungi/bacteria causing the
problem. It can work very well, but Corydoras are not especially
salt-tolerant, so you'd have to do this carefully. Perhaps dipping at
first for 1 minute, and seeing how things go. If the fish is fine, try
two minutes the next day. Salt-tolerant fish can stand up to 20 minutes,
and this does a great job, but in this case, I'd be limiting myself to
no more than 3-5 minute dips.>
I didn't mean that the spots appeared after the WC and the WC was the
condition was probably already working it's black magic on those two
Corys and the WC was most likely a lifesaver for the others in the tank,
who certainly would have become infected too had it not been for the WC.
Sorry.
<Agreed. Water changes normally only do good.>
How many times should I stick with this med if it doesn't appear to be
working? And, what antibacterial med should I use with it? Should it be
after this treatment or in addition to the treatment? ( the Jungle
Fungus med does state that it treats both, but I don't see any signs of
improvement on the Corys. )
<Stop using one medication when you start with another, unless it
*expressly* says you can use in combination with some other named
medication. My gut feeling is you're going to need a Maracyn-type
systemic antibiotic to fix things here. Such drugs are available
over-the-counter in the US, or you can get them through a vet. Maracyn
is Erythromycin, each Maracyn tablet is apparently 200 mg Erythromycin
and meant to be used one tablet per 10 gallons of water. So if you can't
get Maracyn itself, an appropriate concentration of Erythromycin should
work just as well. I'm not a vet though! So take this suggestion for
what it is, my best guess!>
I just spent an hour looking at each of the fish in the 50 gal tank and
noticed that one of the yellow Gouramis is not tolerating the treatment
too well. She/he is hanging out at the top of the tank in the corner and
not interested in food. It was active and hungry this morning. The
red/blue dwarf Gourami is not looking too active either. His abrasion,
or whatever it was, is healed, but now he looks like he's growing a
little double chin below his mouth! Nothing is red or raw, but it is
worrisome to me.
<I'd stop feeding, and also do something to increase oxygen
concentration. Slightly lowering the temperature will help (to 74F/23C)
as will adjusting any filters or air pumps to maximise circulation of
the water. Lowering the water level slightly so that the spout of water
from the filter makes more splashing can help, too, by driving off CO2
and improving oxygen absorption.>
The reason I had the Zeolite in the filter was that I had to remove the
carbon and thought it might control any ammonia during the first two
treatments. Now I realize that with the sponge filter and the plants and
other items in the tank, they will take care of the ammonia problem. Is
that right? Sorry to be so dense.
<Yep. Healthy filter bacteria do a better job than Zeolite anyway. But
if you've had a lot of Zeolite in the filter, potentially the filter
bacteria will be under-developed, so do check for signs of ammonia.
That'll correct itself within a few days though, because you should have
at least a semi-healthy population of filter bacteria. So it's not like
cycling the tank from scratch.>
You asked if I was conditioning the water. Yes, I use AquaSafe, but
recently read that it might acidify the water more than other products.
Is that true?
<No idea, and can't imagine it'd be that big of a deal.>
Is there something that is better for hard well water for conditioning
in your opinion?
<No. It's mostly about chloramine, which some water suppliers add to the
water. A few dechlorinators don't treat it properly, and you end up with
extra ammonia. I'm not aware of any specific problems with well water.>
I also age the water for at least a day and have four 5 gal buckets, and
5 or 6 gallon containers set aside.
<Probably redundant, but certainly not doing any harm.>
I keep reading different people's methods for their WCs and wondered if
it's OK to heat a bit of tap water, condition it and add it to the
aged/conditioned water to heat it up?
<There's nothing wrong with mixing hot/cold water right from the tap.
Dechlorinators usually treat copper from the pipes. The only bad water
is water from a domestic water softener. Fish don't like this stuff at
all.>
I had to do that this morning to do the 50% fast WC before I caught the
10 AM boat to make a doctor's appointment. Now I'm wondering if it has
anything to do with the two gouramis not doing so well tonight?
<Unlikely, and in any case should settle down. I once added almost
ice-cold water to a tank filled with parent and baby cichlids. I was in
a rush, and not thinking. The fish went crazy, rolling onto their sides
as if stunned. An hour later they were fine. Fish are actually quite
robust animals, and when we see problems, it's usually because the
problem has beaten their immune system and blown into something serious.
Provided you keep the fish healthy in the first place, they almost never
get ill. Honest!>
Also, really stupid question now, how is it people use Python systems
straight from the tap and add the conditioner at the same time and get
that right?
<The basic idea is you add the dechlorinator to the tank first, and then
add the water so it instantly mixes with the dechlorinator in the
aquarium water. I'm old school. I use a plain vanilla hose pipe and suck
the water out to start the siphon.>
Is that a good practice, or are they doing it out of necessity with
large tanks or multiple tanks?
<Lots of people like them. I'm not one of them though. I tend to mix
rainwater with tap water, or salty water with tap water, to create
specific water conditions. So Pythons aren't terribly useful for me.>
right now to age is impossible and I was just wondering if I could do it
too without adding more problems.
<Should work fine. Ageing water isn't terribly important these days,
especially if you use a decent dechlorinator and have lots of
circulation in the tank to mix the old and new water properly. Anything
that makes water changes easier is a good thing, because you'll do more
of them in less time and with less frustration.>
Thanks again, and I'll keep you apprised of what happens next.
PS. Angelfish still looking good, just did their weekly 50% WC tonight,
bought them their own 28 gallon tank and will move them out of the 12
next week.
<Very good.>
Polly
<Cheers, Neale.>
Re: gray spots on
Orange Neon Cory 12/9/07
Neale,
<Polly,>
OMG, we're into metrics...I don't do metrics well, too old for the
change over! lol Nearest I can figure out, with a dilution of that
percentage for Corys and rounding off, would be 35 grams to 1 litre = 2
tablespoons per 1/3 US gallon H2O, would that be best? Is that right
even?
<Ah, metrics are actually easier for this kind of thing, because normal
salinity, 35 parts-per-thousand, is identical to the concentration in
weight measurements, 35 grammes per litre. As it happens, I have a
little computer program designed for calculating salinities and
switching between metric and US units, called "Brack Calc", which you
can download and play with at the link below. By my reckoning, normal
seawater salinity is about 4.7 ounces of salt per US gallon.
http://homepage.mac.com/nmonks/aquaria/aqua_soft.html
You'll have to experiment yourself and see how that works out in
teaspoons.>
Both Corys doing badly now and I fear the worst. Should I do a 50% WC on
the 55 gal tank to remove the Jungle Fungus Buddies med and do the E-mycin
treatment instead, or let this treatment run the remaining three days of
it's course?
<Change water and switch medication. Nothing to lose, everything to
gain.>
Isolate them and do the E-mycin in the QT tank?
<Leave them be. The stress of moving them won't help.>
Or, continue treating the 55 gal since there might still be something
contagious there?
<I'd treat the quarantine and the display tank.>
I know what you said last time, and that was the entire tank at this
point, so am leaning in that direction, but want to hear you say that's
right.
<I almost always treat tanks rather than specific fish, except for
things like saltwater dips, and even then the dip is to assist the
medication, not replace it.>
I'm going to change the positioning of the HOB filter and sponge filter
to change the direction of the water flow a bit and then add an air
stone near the bottom of the tank to increase the oxygen and movement.
I used to have one there before this all started to turn sour and took
it out as it ticked off the dwarf red Gourami, "Il Duce", who has been
using all his spare time building floating plant islands and building
bubble nests, also a great pain in the butt when it came to constantly
clearing the slots in the bottom of the filter uptake, but he would have
his way.
<Hah! We see who wears the trousers in your household...!>
I tried to control this plant yanking obsession of his by taking a piece
of tubing and turning it into a floating circle for him, plopping his
plant material in it and floating it in one corner away from the filter,
but he plays with it too much and the other gouramis like stealing his
plants for their own islands. We now have three floating islands for the
gouramis! Does keep the floating stuff in check, but the air stone
pushes them around and they are not happy.
Tough love is called for I think. lol
<In the old days people use to break Styrofoam cups into segments, and
Gouramis seemed to love building nests under them. They (the cup
fragments) float really nicely, curve upwards, gathering plant bits
underneath them. Worth a shot.>
The blasted heater is hard to adjust and I am going to swap it out for a
different heater and see if it can more closely control the temperature
level. Why is it that you can find a heater that works perfectly, from
one company, buy another of the same brand and get totally different
results??? UGH!
<Heaters are often annoying. I find that some designs -- those with
rubber caps over the entire adjuster-end of the device -- often become
stiff with age. The effect of water and/or hardness I suppose. I prefer
the ones where the adjuster knob is free from the rest of the cap. In
any case, one old trick is to use two under-powered heaters for a tank.
That way, if one gets stuck, it isn't powerful enough to boil the fish.
Conversely, if one fails completely, the other heater will keep the tank
from getting dangerously cold. So if your tank needs 150 W heater, get
two 75 W heaters instead.>
I had lowered the water level a bit after that fast WC yesterday and
figured I would leave it that way for awhile to increase some splashing,
and really a good rationalization since I didn't have the time to add
the remaining two or three gallons before the boat time.
<Cool.>
Thanks for the info on the Python and WC ideas. Indeed, not worrying
about ageing the water makes life easier and better with more WCs for
the fish.
<Agreed. Fishkeeping should be a low-impact hobby. If you're spending
more than 45-60 minutes a week on maintenance, you're doing something
wrong. The whole point of the thing is to relax, watching the colourful
beasts swimming about merrily (or violently, if you're keeping
cichlids).>
Thanks, Polly
<Good luck, Neale.>
Re: gray spots on
Orange Neon Cory 12/10/07
Neale,
<Polly,>
lost the two orange Corys in the night.
<Ah, too bad.>
I hadn't changed out any water
or the meds as of last night and when I got up this morning and checked
the big tank, found the two dead Corys and the other orange Corys were
acting distressed. One was "running" up and down the side of the tank
and hid if I came within sight! The others didn't flash or swim up and
down, they just hid on me too. I reckoned that the meds might be
stressing them. Took out 10 gallons of H2O and then added that and the
water I hadn't put back in two days ago. Makes about 12-13 gallons in to
dilute some of the meds. Is it possible that it took two days for the
meds to distress this much?
<Possible. Unlikely, but possible. Most medications are more or less
toxic to fish, and we use them on the basis that *most* of the time they
kill the infection before they seriously harm the fish. But some fish
are peculiarly sensitive to certain medications. I've not personally
experienced this with Corydoras, but it may happen with some species and
some medications I've not kept/used.>
I see a bit of brightness, as in orange or reddish, near the gills of
one of the orange Corys, which is hard to detect with their coloring,
but the others aren't showing any signs of red at all, just hiding on me
in their little cave.
<I REALLY need a photo to understand what's going on here. We've pretty
much run through the list of common infections & their treatments.>
The other fish seem to be normal, just a bit curious as to all the new
water coming in and old going out, but otherwise OK. The 5 Schwartzi
Corys are still oblivious to anything different happening, are acting
normal and eating, nothing unusual on their bodies or in coloration.
No fin or barbel loss, redness, nothing that I can see with the naked
eye or the magnifying lens and flashlight. This is true of the orange
Corys too. No fin or barbel loss either, no spots or patches of fungus
like things.
<Good.>
The only thing I can imagine is that it was too much medicine going in
and I should have done either a lighter dose or perhaps pulled the two
affected out of the tank and waited to see what would happen???? I tried
to dose with the amount of water actually in the tank rather than the
tank's potential capacity.
<Sometimes it is worth doing half-doses of medication. If the infection
is slight, half-doses might help with reduced risk of problems. But if
the infection is serious, you usually need the full dose to get the
desired results.>
I have to believe something else is going on in this tank and there is
something I can't see, or one is a carrier of something in there with
the rest. What else can it be? Could they have some little parasite that
is in the gills that is undetectable?
<I really don't know. Without seeing a photo of the fish in question,
it's very difficult to be sure what's going on.>
OR, is this a progression of a disease which is just taking out the
weaker fish in sequence?
<Certainly possible. This is precisely how Neon Tetra Disease works
through an aquarium, knocking off a fish at a time, usually once every
few weeks.>
I'm totally baffled by this. The orange Corys came through the ich
outbreak without any of them catching a spot, have been looking really
good until this hit all at once. Probably not all at once, you're
saying, but brewing away in the depths of the tank and had I done the
50% WCs all along this wouldn't have happened.
<Ick is usually a very obvious disease, and if it becomes fatal, it is
obviously serious with white spots all over the fins and flanks. So we
can probably discount this. Ick can make fish sensitive to secondary
infections, and it is possible that this has happened here. Since
"secondary infections" covers a lot of ground, it's difficult to
identify the pathogen without access to a microbiology lab. Pseudomonas
and Aeromonas are the two commonest bacteria, but there are many
others.>
Should I still try the E-mycin or just do more WC tomorrow?
<I'd try the Erythromycin at this stage. Do two big water changes before
though, to flush out as much old medication as possible. Maybe 50%
tonight, then 50% tomorrow morning, and then dose the tank. Do take care
to siphon up any detritus in the tank while you're at it. The 'cleaner'
the tank, the better the antibiotic will work.>
I'm starting to wonder if the Dwarf Gouramis had something up with them
when we introduced them to the tank about three weeks ago.
<Dwarf Gouramis are fish I would never, ever keep. They are notorious
carriers of viral and bacterial infections, to which they usually
succumb very quickly. Whether said infections can jump to catfish I do
not know. Anything's possible I suppose, but I haven't heard this
particular thing happening before.>
They were
Qt'ed for two and a half weeks, showed no signs of anything, but were
stressing each other out so much that we finally added them to the big
tank. They have been doing OK, but might have carried something in as
yet undetected.
<Indeed. Hard to say.>
Thanks for the quick reply, once again,
Polly
<Cheers, Neale.>
Re: gray spots on Orange Neon
Cory 12/11/07
Neale,
<Polly,>
I have tried all day to get a picture of the Corys, but they aren't cooperating
one bit. When they do come out they are in constant motion and once the flash on
the digital goes off, they go into deep hiding.
<Oh.>
Interesting thing is that they look and act normally, when they come out of
their cave and rock hidey holes. This is only when they don't see us and they
were frantic to eat when I fed the tank! Could I have cleaned the tank bottom
too well? LOL Doubt it, but its not nearly as bad, which didn't appear that bad,
to begin with. ( also, we've kept their end of the tank without lights for most
of the day to make them more comfortable about coming out.)
<No, don't worry, clean is good!>
I shined the flashlight on all the oranges, when I could sneak up on them, and
they all look the same color in the gill area. Think it's a trick of the light
with their Neon orange coloring. Depending on how they turn, the gills look
reddish or gold. Now I think I must have panicked and they don't have a gill
problem. They all look exactly the same in the gills.
<Good.>
My mother, whose chair is right next to the tank, has been watching them closely
all day and she thinks they are more out and about than yesterday, none have
"run" up and down the tank side, flashed or done anything unusual except the
hiding. She admitted to dropping a little food into the tank to see if they'd
come out and sure enough, they rushed out from under their cave, ate and then
swam right back in when they were done. The Schwartzi are not acting this way at
all and they all ate together, including our large blue 3 spot Gourami who loves
the algae pellet too. That didn't upset them either.
<Very good. I'm glad your Mom is getting involved. The more people who recognise
healthy fish/behaviour, the better. It's like having more spies! You get a
heads-up on problems when someone else in the family says, "Gee, that Catfish is
looking a bit odd this morning".>
The Schwartzi and the oranges used to like to hang out at the end of the tank
with the sponge filter and I've changed the sponge filter to the other end of
the tank. It seems unlikely that that could be the problem. I haven't read that
they are territorial. The Schwartzi are now more at the sponge filter end of the
tank. The oranges in The Cave.
<Corydoras aren't remotely territorial. They live in schools of hundreds of fish
in the wild, often mixed species groups but not always. Some species won't
school together, and simply ignore each other.>
Still no marks or spots or growths on them and no deterioration on barbel, fins
or tails. Just this weird behavior. Could they be so stressed from the loss of
the two other Corys?
<Stressed is perhaps not the word, but Corydoras do become more nervous/less
day-active when kept in too-small a group.>
There were 6 and now are four, but there are still the 5 Schwartzi Corys who
they eat with during their feeding frenzy.
<Ah, I'd aim for at least 6 of each, ideally more.>
This brings up the question of whether they are getting a proper diet. I give
them half of an algae pellet every day and every other day a few shrimp pellets.
They scavenge for any leftover food from the top feeders and I have cut back
some on that food as I thought we might have fed them too much. They are fed
twice a day and sparingly. Could their diet be deficient?
<No. It's almost impossible to starve fish because they have very, very low food
requirements. Most of what we eat is effectively "wasted" on thermoregulation (I
think it's 80% of the calories, but I'd have to check). Most fish do not control
their body temperature this way, instead relying on the warmth of the water to
keep them at the right temperature. All they need per day is enough food for
movement and growth. Literally a single flake will supply this for a small,
inch-long tropical fish. Anything else is a bonus. Corydoras also eat a lot of
plant material in the wild, and will graze on algae and decaying plant matter.>
I'm totally baffled by this turn of events, think I will not add any other meds
to the tank right now and wait another day to see what happens. Is this wise or
should I really do E-mycin to the entire tank without any other indications?
<If we think the gills are normal, and the fish show no other symptoms, it may
well be time to leave things be.>
If this is just some stress related behavior I really don't want to add to it.
I'm going to do another big WC tomorrow and hope that they aren't even more
reclusive, but it will make the water conditions even better and I'm hopeful
that it will make them more comfortable.
<Water changes are good!>
Will try and get some pictures, but don't know if they'll be more cooperative or
not.
Thanks again,
Polly
<Good luck, Neale.>
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