Discus... stress beh., hlth., incomp. with angels    12/12/08
Good afternoon,
I am hoping you can help me out with a discus problem.
Currently I have a 330 litre tank with a ph of 6.4 and temp at 28C as well as quite a few fishes,
20 Rummy nose
4 bristle nose
4 angel fish (paired, very territorial)
10 Zebra Danios
1 blue diamond discus
4 red melon discus
(Is this too many for the tank?)
<Sounds great. But Angels can be quite waspish, so I'd watch how the Discus behave. It's pretty common for Angels to bully Discus. There's also a risk of transmitting diseases that Angels don't seem too bothered by, but can cause real problems for Discus.>
The red melons were added 6 days ago. On the 1st day they got "head butted" by the blue diamond a fair bit, I read up on a site and dismissed it as a greeting of some sort.
<Well, Discus are hierarchical, but if you upped the group to six, I'd fully expect them to settle right down.>
Now the 4 red melons are slowly showing black patches on their face. There is one that is particularly bad, his upper and lower fin has a dark shade around the edges while his back fin has gone from clear to black. I've read your previous posts about unhappy discus turning black, in my case it is only to their head and fins their body is still bright red.
<Could well be stress; Discus when stressed typically show a series of dark vertical bars on the flanks. I'd carefully observe the interactions within the Discus group, as well as between the Discus and Angels. But as ever with Discus, do a quick check of water quality and especially water chemistry. In soft water tanks pH can drop rapidly, and as pH drops, biological filtration becomes less efficient, basically stopping altogether at around 6.0. Cheers, Neale.>

Re: Discus  12/14/08
Thank you Neale, for the prompt reply,
I will move the Angels out in the next couple of day and put in 2 more red melons.
Will let you know how it goes.
Regards,
Leon
<Sounds like you have a good plan there. Let me know if things still don't work out. Good luck! Neale.>

Discus aggression and 'dither' fish  7/19/08
Hi Crew,
<John,>
Thinking that more than two juvenile discus in a planted 29-gallon tank would be too many, I didn't take seriously enough the thought that the 'pecking order' really would be an issue -- my new (in the tank for a week) Santarem is preventing his Snakeskin tankmate from settling in. The snakeskin is eating very little, and is chased whenever it strays from hiding. I have installed a divider in the tank, but I want the discus ultimately to coexist.
<Discus do indeed work best in fairly large groups when young, since they're schooling fish and when kept in insufficient numbers you run the risk of all the usual social problems with hierarchical fish. It's easier to maintain pairs once they've paired off by themselves.>
My question is this: would adding some dither fish (or something like dither fish -- not sure if this is exactly the term for what I have in mind) be expected to partially or totally relieve this aggression?
<Not really; if you have fish picking on each other, that's likely because the dominant fish is already considering the whole tank his domain. Dither fish serve to help fish feel less frightened. Cichlids (and many other benthic fish) decide whether it is safe to leave their hiding places to feed by observing surface fish. Because surface fish can see predators above the waterline first, they act as a kind of "early warning system".>
I've read (on WWM and elsewhere) infrequent comments on the possibility of discus picking on such fishes as rams, Apistos, or checkerboard cichlids; could this fact be exploited to reduce the aggression of the Santarem on the Snakeskin?
<Unlikely. What you're describing are called "Targetfish", the idea being that territorial cichlids need to focus their aggression on something, and if you put something in the tank for them to "have a go at", it helps the pair form a stronger bond. This approach works great if you use super-fast, semi-aggressive things like Gyrinocheilus aymonieri or sturdy Synodontis.>
If so, are there better choices than others here?
<Additional Discus.>
Or would the distraction of other tankmates such as tetras be sufficient to distract the aggressor? (I currently have nine marble hatchetfish in QT waiting to go in with the discus...perhaps even these would help?)
<Hatchets are great dither fish for Discus, but I don't think they will have the effect you're after.>
I don't want to add fishes that will cause further problems -- I had planned only the discus and hatchets for this tank, but would be happy to add any others to make the discus more comfortable. Your experienced advice would be greatly appreciated.
<I'd go with an odd numbered group, at least three, ideally 5+.>
--John in Minneapolis
<Neale in Berkhamsted.>

Question- Carbon Stunting Fish 06/15/08
A discus breeder I know, who appears quite knowledgeable, told me that activated carbon in filters stunts the growth of fish. Is there any truth to this?
< I have never seen any scientific documentation validating this claim. If this breeder set up six tanks of baby discus with activated carbon in their filters and then set up an additional six tanks of baby discus without activated carbon, then raised them together with all the other factors being the same, then we can compare both the tanks to see if the carbon made a difference. Carbon removes organics from the water. A good example would be tannins from driftwood. What does affect fish grow is nitrogenous wastes. If the filter is not cleaned then the organics in the filter begin to decompose and these waste products inhibit the grow of fish. This is why water changes are so heavily stressed in raising baby fish.-Chuck>

Disappearing Discus  - 10/25/06
I have a 55 gallon tank. I had [at the time] 7 discus & 2 Plecos. About a month ago, I noticed my little 2-inch Yellow Siam Master had turned very dark. I was scared he would die. I changed the water almost 3/4 of it - all tests were good. Then a few days later - I just couldn't find him OR my little Pleco (2 inches)! I cleaned out the tank - took all plants (plastic), big rocks, etc. out & searched. Nothing. Just gone. Now it is 3 weeks later & I just got 3 new discus - all doing fine BUT now my 2-inch Blue is completely gone!! I have never found a body, bones, from ANY fish in my tank. I have also searched all around my tank in case they jumped out. I feed them 2 x day & change water 3-4 x month. Are my discus creepy little cannibals or what?? Does my tank have a wormhole? Alien abduction? This is completely freaking me out. PLEASE tell me what is happening (if you can.)
< Your discus turn very dark and start to hide when they are sick. When they die the bacteria start to break them down and their bodies decompose very quickly in an aquarium. If your water is soft and acidic then the skeleton will dissolve pretty quickly too.  Remove some of the decor so you can watch them more closely.-Chuck>

Dashing Discus  7/14/06
Hey guys! I have a few things that I wanted an opinion on. Let me give you my tank and fish specs first. I have a 55 gal, a couple medium sized plants, sponge filter and eight discus under 3 1/2". My problem is three different fish who all display different symptoms.
1.) I have a blue snakeskin who was breathing through one gill for long periods of time. He would use both if agitated by a tank cleaning, or during feeding (I assumed just from the activity). I consulted my local fish store and was told to let the fish ride it out as long as he was eating properly and not getting any worse as medication can be pretty intense for fish. So that's what I've done. I came home from work tonight and he is at
the bottom of the tank bobbing up and down hitting the gravel bottom each time. He seems to be breathing heavily (using both gills) and one of his fins (right side) is torn up pretty bad in the webbing. I gave him some stimuli by turning on the tank lights and stirring him with my hand. He was completely unresponsive until I touched him, at which point he darted around aimlessly hitting every decoration and wall in the tank multiple time, often swimming upside down and on his side. He came to rest in a corner of the tank on his side and resumed the bobbing behavior. Is this later stages of a gill problem I should have taken care of earlier?
< Probably should have treated for gill flukes with Fluke-Tabs but hind-site is always 20/20.>
2.) My red snakeskin has always been a good and healthy fish (still young though) at the time that I came home tonight, he was swimming around the tank, upright, and running into anything in his direct line of swim. Almost the way a blind person would walk if they couldn't spot to avoid objects. He has no outer signs of abuse from the others, or anything that would look like disease. Could this be related to the fish I mentioned in #1? Or is
this a part of night time discus unresponsive behavior?
< Internal parasites or trauma like a blow to the head may be the problem. Fish sleep when it is dark and it could take a few moments to let his eyes get adjusted to the lights and shadows.>
3.) I know this is getting long, but thank you so much for anything you can help me with. Lastly, I have a brilliant turquoise that is kinda beat up looking. Again, all the fish looked fine today (except for the one with the gill problem) and when I came home tonight I noticed that there were white scratch marks along his sides and towards the back of his body. No other symptoms though. Is this just normal pecking order battle scarring?
< The fish could have  been  startled and inadvertently scratched himself against an object. Fish do not do this kind of damage to each other.-Chuck>
The only other thing I can say is that I performed a water change today, but I tested the water right before I emailed this and everything checks out fine. Very consistent with previous water conditions. I love my fish and I would hate to lose one to something I should have prevented a while ago.
Thanks again for what you guys do. I'll look forward to hearing back from you.
Ryan

Discus Being Aggressive  5/14/06
Hello, I recently purchased two discus (one brilliant turquoise and one red turquoise). They are the most exquisite fish I have ever seen. They acclimatized really well, much better than expected. So, the tank is a 70 gallon heavily planted and going swell with my first two fishies. The next day I brought a German purple discus and a solid white discus. Again acclimation was very good. Now here's the problem: the brilliant turquoise constantly chases the German into the back corner even though the German is 1 and a half  times bigger!!! I was told that in order to reduce this aggression the brilliant is showing I should add a couple more, is this a wise idea?
< The idea is to create a tank with many targets so the most aggressive discus picks on all the others and not just one. You could use angelfish or festivums too.>
 I really am starting to get upset as I knew discus were cichlids but have never seen them this bad. The German is still eating and is happy but the brilliant is not making his life overly happy. Your advice would be highly valued!!! If you think I should add more discus how many?
< Sometimes people get by with just two discus in a tank. It all depends on how territorial the most aggressive one wants to be. Sometimes you can just rearrange the tank but this is not practical with a planted tank. I would stock the tank with a total of at least 6 discus since they like to be in schools anyway.>
Do the discus get better as they mature???
< They will get a pecking order established and things may ease up a bit.>
How soon should I add more discus?
< If you planned on adding more discus anyway then I would do it sooner rather than later. If you want to keep it as is then you could wait and see if things settle down.>
Thank you very much for your precious time, and happy fish keeping. Jarryd.

Discus Help!!  11/19/05
I'm such a moron! Ok, I always QT new animals before I put them in the 150 gal show tank. I leave them in QT for at least 2 wks... normally 4+. I add animals carefully and slowly... until this week. I ordered 8 discus that weren't supposed to be shipped until after Thanksgiving... but there was a mix-up and they got here Tues. My QT is a 20 gal and I just moved some loaches, an angel, and a Farlowella into the main tank. I didn't put the discus into the QT because a week ago I lost an angel in it to fin rot and the dealer who sold me the discus said that it would be better to just put them into the main tank instead of risk picking something up from the QT.
<Possibly the better route>
My wife noticed a little fungus on one of the dorsal fin rays of one of the larger discus (about 2.5" sv) Wednesday and from what we'd read in the FAQs we left it alone. Thursday evening we noticed that the condition had worsened on the fin and moved to the sides as well...a white, cottony patch about the size of a lima bean on the
side and another the size of a pinto on the dorsal fin. I have always had success treating fungus with Melafix,
<...>
so I dosed the tank per the directions (5ml/10 gal) as a preventative and did a separate dip for the affected fish of 1 drop Quickcure
<Too toxic... malachite and formalin...>
and .5 ml Melafix in 1 gal system water for 5 min. The fish was returned to the system and seamed much improved that night. This morning all of the discus are cowering in the corners and black as pitch.
<Bad...>
The treated fish doesn't show signs of the fungus, but instead has two streaks along his lateral line that looks kind of like hard water stains on glass. Another of the larger discus also has the same condition. Other discus are laying on their sides and generally acting miserable. I haven't tried to feed them yet, but they were taking flake and frozen bloodworm just fine since Tuesday. My water parameters are 0 nitrates (yes, I check everything I possibly can), 0 nitrites, 0 ammonia, 0 ammonium, pH 7.6,
<Better below 7.0>
3dKH, .5dGH (yes, that's 1/2dGH)
82 degrees F, though when I went to raise the temps to assist their immunity, I accidentally dropped it to 79. (turned the knob the wrong way!)
<Argggghhh!>
I've fixed the heater (300w Theo Hydor) so the temps are slowly on the rise, I also have a 250w MH lamp that will do the same... slowly. Conspecifics are 1 - 1" angel,
<I would not mix angels and Symphysodon... reasons posted on WWM>
3 -2.5" reticulated loaches, 1 - 2.5" clown loach, 1 - 6" Farlowella sp., and 2 - Otocinclus. None of the other fish are showing any problems at all. I had to take back a 2.5" angel, 6 - lg. giant danios, 1 - 3" Severum, and 2 - 5" Plecos because of stress/aggression concerns. All but the lg. angel were removed from the system Monday. The lg angel was removed Tues. night due to bullying. I've got 40gal of water aerating to do a water change this afternoon... but I'm leaving town tomorrow morning for a week! That's one of the reasons I didn't want the fish shipped until then! What do I do!?!? Thank you. Branon.
<I would not have bright light on these fish (turn off the MH), I would lower the pH (slowly), raise temperature as you're doing... and hope. The fish are stressed... from being transported, handled, dosed... no more of these "med.s", please. Bob Fenner> 

Re: Discus Help!! addendum  11/19/05
I forgot to tell you about the rest of the system... JIK. I have a 250 GPH return from a 200 gal rated wet dry filter. I have a Whisper 60 gal OTB power filter at the same end as the return. I have a 600gph closed loop to Under Gravel Jets for flow and to keep detritus off the substrate. I also have a Maxi-Jet 900 by the surface skimmer box to increase gas exchange and about a 12" wall of bubbles in the middle of the back for oxygenation/gas exchange/circulation...is there too much flow for them?
<Should be fine>
Is it too bright?...I have 250w 10000k MH on left side, 1 - 25w. 6500k CFL in middle, and 2 40w 6500k standard t-12 bulbs on the right. I have a good amount of plastic plants and 3 pieces of med. bogwood and some rock-work as well. For a 72x18x28" tall tank, that shouldn't be too much light, should it...I mean to add live plants soon...mostly under the MH....I think I'll kill the lights to give them a break....any other suggestions/questions to help with this? I really appreciate all the help
you give. Branon Rochelle.
<I would turn off the MH for now. Bob Fenner> 

Discus stocking/Aggression  11/10/05
Hello
<Howdy>
I have read a lot of your FAQ pages and find them to be one of the best resources for aquarists that I have come across in a long time. Thank you for your obvious love and dedication to what you do. It's nice to see other people get upset about abuses of the Piscean kind as I do. I thought I was alone in being concerned about goldfish in bowls and jam jar sized "tanks" for Bettas.
<Oh, no... there are many of "us">
At the moment I have a 3 foot, 120 litre (I think in feet and litres, my only defense is that I'm Australian and they changed it on me in 1966) fairly heavily planted tank with 9 cardinals 3 small Cory cats and 2 1.5 inch Discus. Water parameters are spot on. One of my Discus seems to be quite aggressive toward the other,
<Happens>
they have been in the tank for 5 days. I can't determine if they are of the same sex or not at the moment, I thought they would be to immature to breed
<Correct>
and it does look like one is nipping the other. I think it may have something to do with feeding as it seems to be worse in the areas near where I feed from. They get a commercial flake food in the morning and I usually give them frozen blood worms or brine shrimp (I was surprised they eat it, the cardinals love them) or discus mix at night. I have read that they may be better off in odd numbers,
<Yes... gives the "odd fish out" some rest...>
I think I can probably squeeze one more in although I am not overly fond of stocking to my limits. Would you think that the addition of another fish may ease the situation at all? 
<Yes, this is what I would do>
I'm in a bit of a dilemma as to the best way to handle this, and the quick skim through the archive didn't really cover my question. Maybe I missed it?
<It will be added thanks to your thoughtful query, under FAQs About Discus Behavior>
Thanks for your help
Nita
<Cheers, Bob Fenner>

Re: Discus stocking/Aggression  11/11/05
Hi Bob
Thank you for the quick reply and valuable advice.   Adding another was where I was leaning towards, but seeing they are my first foray in to Discus I thought I'd check with someone who has more experience with these fish. Now all I have to do is convince the long suffering "fish tank widower" husband of mine that another $75 fish is a
good investment!
Cheers
Nita
<Understood... and glad to share. Thank you for yours. Bob Fenner>

First Discus, Lonely Discus, Finicky Eater? - 10/22/2005
Hi again guys.
<Hello.>
I have a couple saltwater tanks, but decided to try discus. I tried as my first fish, not a wise idea. 
<Not a terribly bad idea, if done correctly.>
I have a 55g with a penguin Bio-wheel and a Mag 350. PH 7.0, 0am, 0 nitrates, and nitrites, and ammonia. We bought a discus online last Tuesday,
<One? Just one?>
14 days ago, and cannot ever see him eat. However his color is good, and he is semi- active sometimes, and not too active other times (mostly hangs out in a corner, and sometimes swims). We feed him bloodworms, but never see him eat. 
<These fish are mostly only comfortable in groups.... Unless you are breeding a pair, a group of four is almost a minimum; they really feel/act/look better if there are a few of them.>
It looks as though a lot is gone, and he looks fine, but no matter how much we watch, he won't eat. Is it possible he is eating while we are not watching? 
<Possible, but not highly likely.>
If he hasn't eaten in this much time, seems as though he would look bad. I am doing daily water changes, 5G. The only other fish we have in there is a golden nugget Pleco. I have a piece of driftwood and a white arrowhead plant, and a gravel bed. 
<In all honesty, he's likely not eating because he's too insecure to do so, without some buddies around. One good idea would be to call the breeder from whom you purchased and ask what they were feeding him.>
One more thing. If we have success, and want to add more fish, how many total discus can we put in there?
<Four or six until they're close to adult size.... then a pair, if you wish to breed.>
Your have helped me out in a lot of my saltwater questions, and I do appreciate it a lot!!!!!!
<Glad we could be of service.>
Thanks, Jon
<Wishing you well, -Sabrina>

First Discus, Finicky Eater? - 10/24/2005
Thanks a lot!! I just ordered 3 more.  -Jon, discus newb
<Hope he perks up some with some friends around. Wishing you well, -Sabrina>

Discus Pecking Order - 8/10/03
I have 5 discus that I was expecting to be a happy little shoal from everything I have read about them. This is not the case, all they do is chase each other around and fight.
<they simply have to establish a pecking order as they mature. The chasing can be brisk... but you will notice they are not murderous... and rarely cause wounds. No worries>
I have had them about three weeks and was wondering if they are just establishing pecking orders and this will stop or are they going to kill each other.
<actually continues until they are over a year old... but still no worries>
They are in a 90 gallon aquarium.
<a fine size to rear all to adulthood. Do weekly water changes or better for best growth here>
I have tried rearranging driftwood and plants and such to no avail. Please advise as I am at my wits end.
<wits end... after just 3 weeks. Yikes! Relax bubba. Do get some of the many fine books on discus husbandry too. You will be reassured and better prepared. Jack Wattley's book is a classic>
Thank you
<best regards, Anthony>

My Discus pair
I have a pair, a couple, so to speak. The were happily in
love, until my filtration system died a slow death. Anyway, to make a long story short. All is well now with the tank, everyone seems to have recovered. The water is perfect. But, the male is now beating on the female. He is chasing her non-stop, batting her. Why??
< You may have stimulated spawning with a large water change simulating the year rainy season in the Amazon. The male is ready to mate but the female is not. She needs some TLC to build up her reserves and generate some eggs. In the wild she would swim away until she had fattened up with eggs. She would then approach the male and they would spawn and raise the fry. As long as the male continues to chase her around she may be utilizing all of her energy swimming away and not making eggs. I would recommend separating the two until she has had a chance to catch up with the male. Fatten her up with some washed earthworms for about a week. and try to put them together again.>
What happened to change the love nest they had??
<If your filter was slowly dieing then it probably wasn't working very well. High waste build up in the aquarium is a sure way to prevent fish from spawning.>
Will he kill her??
<Discus aren't the meanest fish around but over time he might inflict enough damage to kill her. More likely she will find a hiding place and stay there afraid to come out, even to eat and may waste away or get sick and die from a disease brought on by stress and malnutrition. -Chuck>.  A worried fishy mom. Thanks in advance. Janet

Discus Disaccord
Hi Crew,
Before my questions, I wanted to thank you for all the valuable information you put out there for all of us Discus lovers.  After searching your sitd I did not find a similar Q & A so I hope my question will help others.
I'll try to sum this up, I have a 250 gal tank with 11 harmonious discus.  I had two (blue and snakeskin) in a quarantine tank, (20 gal) the blue one was constantly picking on the snakeskin, so after a safe amount of quarantine I moved the blue one to my display tank.  He's about 4" and seemed to fit in fine with everyone but by the end of the day my 5" pair of wild discus began bullying him.  The tank is 8' long with plenty of hiding spaces and although I felt sorry for him I figured he'd be O.K. He kept himself in hiding most of the time and came out for feeding avoiding the wild pair. (I've added 2 1/2" discus in the past and the wild ones didn't even notice them.)  A few days later I added the 4" snakeskin assuming he would be treated the same way.  Everything was calm and I had to run out for a few hours.  On my return I was horrified, the pair of wild discus had the beautiful snakeskin in a corner and they were taking turns sucking off his slime coat.  He didn't try to get away from them. ( Is beauty a trade off for stupidity?)  I put him back in the quarantine tank and 4 days later he seems to have recovered.  I put two smaller discus with him and the three of them are all doing fine together.
1) How do I introduce him back into my 250 gal tank?
<Before turning off the lights you should rearrange all the decorations in the tank. This is not easy in a large planted tank. Add the fish and then turn off the lights. In the morning all the fish will be busy establishing their new territories and less likely to pick on the new guy.
2) Would the attacks from the pair of wild discus eventually have killed him?
< Although discus are not well known for their aggressiveness, you must keep in mind that they are cichlids. I think it would have taken a little while for them to kill the discus but over time it is definite possible.
3) Should I consider moving the wild discus to a different aquarium and how big would it need to be?
<You might have to move the wild discus because of question #4> Would  55 gal be O.K for just the two of them and some companions?
< That would be fine>
4) Could the pair of wild discus be preparing to spawn?
<Absolutely! In fact this is probably the main cause for all of your problems. Separate the pair to the 55 gallon. They like to spawn on a vertical surface an keep the water at 80 degrees. Discus like all cichlids guard their eggs and fry from all intruders. When they frt become free swimming they will eat the slime off the parents. Very amusing to watch. Good luck.-Chuck>
Any and all answers will be greatly appreciated.
Joni